The 9/11 Decade Newsnight

Tonight, we're live from New York, with a special edition of Newsnight,

to mark the decade since 9/11, as America takes in reports of a new

Al-Qaeda threat. Al-Qaeda, again, is seeking toe harm Americans, and

in particular - to harm Americans, and in particular to target New

York and Washington. We will be getting a reaction from Michael

Chertoff, America's director of Homeland Security. In a specially

extended programme, we will explore the impact of 9/11 on America and

the world. I will be speaking to Rumsfeld - Donald Rumsfeld, the

architect of the US response. was not about retaliation or

revengs, our task is - revenge, our task is to protect the American

people, not to get even. We will hear from those caught up in the

day. The guys were over here, they were like we can't hear you, then

he turned round the megaphone round and said he could hear us, and the

whole world can hear you, and the people who knocked down the

buildings will hear all of us soon. I have been at Ground Zero, looking

at the difficult process of rebuilding and recovery. Did the

atrocity change American life and culture forever? I will be talking

about that with Carl Bernstein, Fran Leibowitz and Suzanne Vega.

Good evening, as we approach Sunday's anniversary, it is not

surprising there is a new security alert in America. The threat to the

country has never gone away. In had the decade since the terrible

events of 9/11, the US has fought back on several fronts. Against the

Taliban in Afghanistan. In a devisive war in Iraq. With new

security laws at home. Counter terrorism in Pakistan, where Osama

Bin Laden was finally captured and killed. First tonight, our

diplomatic editor assesss America's We never dreamed this would happen

on American soil, so we grew up very fast. They did it in our

backyard, I can't turn the other cheek, not on this one. So much

changed that day, so many souls were lost. So many preconceptions

shared about America and the length it would go to defend itself. Two

planes caused huge casualties in New York, another was flown into

the Pentagon in Washington. The dead from that attack are

remembered here. The choice of the Pentagon as a target was a

deliberate humiliation by Al-Qaeda of American power. It called for a

completely new kind of strategic thinking, a different sort of

response. President Bush, fuelled by popular outrage, hurled American

power forward across the world, in retaliation, in a series of steps

that would prove enormously costly, and the consequences of which are

still being felt today. General Jack Keane was in the

highest councils of the military. The fact of the matter is, to

conduct the low end of war, against people who blend in against the

population, and who use the population as a shield to protect

them, even though they are conducting a relatively low tech

war, so to speak, against a very high-tech military, intellectually

we were not ready for. That we had purging ourselves of everything we

had learned from our ten-year experience in Vietnam at the end of

that war, based on how that war ended. We drove it out of our

doctrine. The military had barely thought about striking back when

the President visited Ground Zero. There people were still clawing

away at the rubble, desperate to find survivors. Among them was Bob

Beckwith, a remired firefighter who had donned his old uniform and gone

to help. He came right in front of me and he puts his arm up, I

thought, oh my God, I turned around and ask if he was OK, he said yes,

I started to get down. I said where are you going, I said I was told to

get on, and he said stay right here. He started to talk. The guys over

here are yelling they can't hear, then he turned that megaphone round

and said, I can hear you, the whole world hears you, we will find the

people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us

soon....will Hear all of us soon. Do you think America was bent on

revenge after 9/11? Revenge. Of course that is what you were going

to do. We're at war. Colleen Kelly's brother, Bill, had

gone to a conference in the north tower that morning, it took his

family weeks to accept that he would never come home. We don't

know when Bill died, none of us know how he died, exactly or when

he died. I didn't want to think of my brother being scared and fearful

and you know I wanted to think of him having his last thoughts that

he would survive. The loss of Bill Kelhy, Colleen's brother, produced

grief, but then anxiety too, as America started to strike back

weeks after the attack. I do remember very, very clearly,

October 7th when we started bombing in Afghanistan, feeling awful. I

just remember crying that whole day, and thinking that there is now

families in Afghanistan who have nothing to do with September 11th,

who would now be in the same position as our family. On a very

deep, real sense, that didn't make sense to me. We will spoke them out

of their holes, we will get them running and we will bring them to

justice. The Bush administration declared war on terror, very soon

it was mired in controversy. Guantanamo Bay produced shocking

images. And even as operations continued in Afghanistan, President

Bush sought to carry the fight to the heart of the Arab world. Right

after we took the Taliban down, we had a meeting among the senior

generals, and the chairman told us that the administration has made up

its mind to go to war in Iraq. I was the first one to speak, I said,

why, why are we doing that? He said he didn't know why. We would

eventually get some insict to that decision. I said why - insight to

that decision. I said why not wait. I could see the logic myself, but

why not wait and finish the Al- Qaeda off in Afghanistan. We have

taken down the Taliban, we have plenty of Al-Qaeda running around

here, we have to get our arms around these guys. The invasion of

Iraq soon brought US troops into the heart of Baghdad. It was laden

with symbolism, as an Arab strongman fell. In the square, the

placing of an American flag suggested triumphalism, the

euphoria of naked power. Captain Casey Kuhlman was the

Maureen officer who saw that - marine officer who saw that happen

and quickly stepped in. I said that is not what we are here to say,

that is the worst possible thing we should be showing the world right

now. We were all very aware of hoich of the world was watching us

at that - how much of the world was watching us at that time. Since I

was right by my vehicle, I went and pulled an Iraqi flag. Did you,

while you were still in the city, feel a change of mood? We pulled

the statue down, and then we said, OK, what now, boss? They said, OK,

what now boss? And they said, what now, boss? There was silence.

silence cost America dear. So much so it prevented large scale

interventions elsewhere. The Bush administration Iraq surge allowed a

graceful exit, an opportunity Barack Obama was determined to take.

At the lab Day parade in Maryland, there were plenty of Obama

supporters, this is staunch Democratic country. The theme of

the day fit neatly with that of the moment, keeping America moving

forward, trying to restart the economy. The Obama administration

may have come in with a markedly different political language, and

an attempt to reassert traditional American values in foreign policy,

but certain inconvenient facts remain, that Guantanamo Bay is

still open, despite a campaign pledge, and that certain types of

pre-emptive strike, for example by drones in Pakistan, have gone on at

an even greater rate under this President than President Bush.

determined that it is in our vital national interest to send an

additional 30,000 US troops to Afghanistan. President Obama may

have wanted out of Iraq, but he surged in Afghanistan, and ramped

up special operations. Four months ago, that paid

spectacular dividends, with the killing of Osama Bin Laden. If I

was the sharp shooter I would have shot Bin Laden in the throat, give

him another minute to think about it. He knows he's going to die, but

think about it. But they took him right out, right through his head.

A at Deep Creek Lake, they held Labour Day holiday races, America's

economy is struggling to get under way, and costly wars have required

huge borrow, money that might have helped the re- huge borrowing,

money that might have helped the recovery. The economy has been the

lynch pin of security. If you look at what happened to the Soviet

Union, their economy collapsed, their state collapsed, our economy

can collapse. Europe can collapse. These things are very much, I think,

they have to be very much in front of people in terms of thinking

about security. I think we need to focus back, get our own fiscal

policy back in line. We need to get our budget back in line, and maybe

pull back and not be the police for the world.

Ten years on, the passage of time, and the death of Bin Laden, have

brought some sense of closure to Americans, and intervention on the

grand scale, practised soon after the attacks, is no longer on the

political agenda. But make no mistake, this country is prepared

to act lethally and pre-emptively against terrorists now, in way that

was one thinkable before 9/11. - unthinkable before 9/11.

The man who led the military response to 9/11 was secretary of

defence, Donald Rumsfeld, you I spoke to him earlier about the

prosduegs - prosecution of the so- called war on terror. First I asked

him about his memories on that day. When the plane hit the Pentagon,

what did you do? I left my office to find out what had happened. No-

one knew what had hit the Pentagon or caused the explosion. Or for the

building to shake. I ran down the hall on my floor, and as the smoke

got too bad I decided I better go downstairs and go outside. Which I

did, I ran into a Lieutenant Colonel, who had seen a plane, who

told me he had seen the plane hit the Pentagon, and that is what

caused the damage. I ran around the corner and there was the smoke and

the flame and the people streaming out of the building burning. It was

shortly after it happened that I was physically there. Presumably

you know people who perished? goodness, yes. You can't ever say

you're fortunate after something like. That but the plane happened

to hit a section that was not yet fully occupied. That was reinforced.

It had been part of the Pentagon that had been rehabilitated and

fixed. It was stronger and therefore we were, as I say,

fortunate that the numbers weren't much larger. Do you still think

about it, does it come to you in strange moments that day, in

flashbacks or dreams? Oh my goodness, yes. You can't go through

something like that, and watch those Twin Towers, or think of the

people aboard that aeroplane that crashed in Pennsylvania, where the

passengers went in and subdued the terrorists, and saved the capital,

or the White House from being attacked as well. People had very

powerful emotions around that time, particularly of revenge, you had to

then snap too, in a way, go to the person and see to your job. You had

to implement what was going to happen. The President called and

said start getting your people thinking about what's next for us.

He said it will come to you. You used the word "revenge", I try

to avoid having people use that word. This isn't about retaliation

or revenge, I said, our task is to protect the American people. It is

not to get even. It is to put pressure on terrorists, wherever

they are, make everything they do more difficult, harder to talk on

the phone, harder to move around from countries, harder to find a

country that will be hospitable to them, and harder to recruit and

raise money. When you think about what happened at Abu Ghraib, and

the enhanced techniques and a the talk of rendition. Do you think you

went too far? I don't know what you mean by you, the Pentagon didn't do

waterboarding and renditions at all. I know the world thinks they did,

the CIA water boarded three people, and the director of the CIA, and

his successor, and they were appointed by Clinton, and the other

two by Bush, they Leon Panetta, appointed by President Obama, they

all said the information that came from those interrogations,

constituted a large fraction of what we knew about Al-Qaeda, and in

some instances contributed to the mosaic that led to the killing of

Osama Bin Laden. My view is that the people in the CIA did what the

President ask them to do, they did it professionally, it benefited the

information that was needed to tackle the new problem of a

terrorist network like Al-Qaeda. After almost a decade, the US

finally got Bin Laden, do you think the death of Bin Laden represents a

moment when America can stop feeling fearful? Can stop feeling

fearful? About Al-Qaeda? You say America as though we are

distinctive. There have been a lot of successful terrorist attacks in

the world since September 11th, they have happened not to be in the

United States, they have occurred in a number of other locations and

other countries. No, I think that Osama Bin Laden is replacable, and

that there will be a replacement. I think that the wroorder, deeper

task, is - broader, deeper task, is to weaken their fundraising support

s and recruiting ability, and to persuade more people that attending

radical Madrass, and learning how to strap suicide bombs on your body

and going in and killing innocent men, women and children, ought not

to be your first choice in life. it time, then, to talk to the

people now the leaders of Al-Qaeda, the double-headed beast. The former

MI5 leader said just this week, look, in the end I hope western

countries are talked to Al-Qaeda. The inference being that eventually

you talked to the IRA, and the Taliban, because it is necessary to

have that kind of solution? There is no question about that, people

have to be persuaded to not do what they are doing. If free people are

going to be able to get up when they want and go where they want,

and say what they want and do what they want without fear. If that

means talking to people attached to Al-Qaeda, you should do it? We talk

to people all over the globe, and trying to persuade them, directly,

and indirectly, they should be doing that. You have no compunction

about that, if that, in the end, leads to peace? The goal has to be

to compete in the battle of ideas. Their idea is a danger to them, and

danger to the world, and we need to be willing to confront it, and to

talk about it and persuade people not to do that. If that means

talking to members of Al-Qaeda so be it, the same way you have to

talk to the Taliban and the IRA? They are talking to the Taliban,

sure, yeah. Where do you think, you talked about the knowns and

unknowns, where do you think the next threat is coming from, when

you look at Syria, Syria now we know, there is people being killed

in the streets, there is attacks on homes, the other hour, there is

torture. What makes it any different from Libya? Well, I think,

if you asked me cold, which is it more important to the United States

in our strategic interest, clearly Syria is, Libya was a side show

compared to, not to the people involved, not to the people being

killed or being repressed by Gaddafi. But the combination of

Syria and Iran is, they are out funding terrorist network, and

causing difficulties in Iraq, difficulties in Afghanistan. They

are brutal to their own people. I mean, the Assad regime is a vicious

regime, the idea he's a reformer is nonsense. Just on that very point,

you said, just in your speech, that you tried to counsel President Bush

not to call it a war on terror, you thought that was wrong? I lost. He

decided to call it that. What was your argument against? I think once

you say the word "war", the implication is it will be a battle

of bullets, tanks and airplanes, but what we are engaged in here is

much more than that. It is not going to be won by bullets, it is a

problem of a competition of ideas, a way to live lives. Second, once

you say "war", the implication is that the Pentagon will solve it.

Once you say a war on terror, what you are basically talking about,

ter I don't is a technique a - terror is a method, it is a

technique used, they could use tanks, terrorist activities. You

are not make warring on tanks and terrorists, you are making war on

the people that are trying to kill innocent men, women and children.

Do you think you can talk about the war in Iraq and say, well, one of

the reasons I think it was a good thing, is because it has led to the

Arab Spring? Oh goodness, I couldn't prove that. There is no

question it is a good thing to have a country in that part of the world,

that has a constitution they have fashioned, has a democratic

Government, is respectful of the various diverse element, and no

longer has a vicious dictator running it, and is no longer the

kind of country willing to invade its neighbour like Kuwait.

6,000 though US personnel, 3 1,000 though others, civilians, women,

and children, it was worth it? think the world is a better place

with Saddam Hussein gone, but that evolving democracy in that part of

the world, I think he's right. said, we cannot guarantee what sort

of regimes come out of Egypt, and Tunisia? Nobody knows about those

countries. You can't help but be hopeful they will end up with freer

political systems and economic systems and the young people will

get jobs and opportunities. But you can't be certain of it. Therefore,

you have to do what you can to try to encourage the people that are

trying to move in the right direction, and discourage those

that are moving in the wrong direction. Thank you.

I'm joined now by Michael Chertoff, the former Secretary of State for

Homeland Security, who introduced many of the most controversial

legal measures of the war on terror. Joining us in a moment will be

Christiane Amanporu, foreign correspondent and anchor of ABC's

This Week programme, Brad Blakeman, whose nephew died in the attacks

and former adviser to the Bush administration, and John

Meersheimer. We are now apparently on the high security alert, how

serious is it to be discussed by the Secretary of State? This is not

the first time since September 1 we have had this kind of warning. What

was - 11th September we have had this kind of warning. There may be

a particular piece of information but we don't know about it. What

will the authorities be doing in this mosaic of making sure that New

York and Washington, particularly, is safe? Two things are happening,

one is a very determined effort to collect more intelligence. All the

sources, human sources, technical sources, are being pushed to get

more details. Second, you see a show of force, you see it in New

York. The idea is to be prepared and also for anybody to deter, by

changing the routine, so the terrorists can't count on knowing

what we will do. Isn't this all part of the fact that America can't

move on. The cultural fear still exists? I don't think it is

cultural fear, I think it is actually prudent capability to

respond. What you don't want to have happen is what happened in

Mumbai, in 2008, where there was an take and it took 60 hours to

eliminate the attackers, we won't let that happen here. This whole,

what Donald Rumsfeld was talking about, the war on terror, ramping

up the idea, which then some people say, allowed the US Government to

produce all sorts of measures, and many of which you were the author

of, in order to promote different policies. Do you think this is all

part and parcel of the same thing right now? I think the fear was

generated by the act. The visual image of people jumping out of the

World Trade Center because it is about to collapse and it is on fire.

That wasn't generated by the US Government, that was the reality.

But the accusation that is you ramped up by calling it war on

terror, you use yourself use the words "war on terror". I used to

say I would describe it as a war on the network of ideolgical Islamist

extremists. I agree with Donald Rumsfeld, terror is a tactic, but

it is a war. It was a global network determined to bring the

kind of catastrophic loss to the United States that was preceded by

prior war. Do you regret using the laj language of "war on terror"?

think that became a shortland. The critical piece was to recognise it

was a war, and it is war, not merely a police action. Because of

the nature of that kind of language and so forth, what happened was

that the Patriot Act, for one kicked in, you were an author of

that, that allowed certain things to happen that were beyond the

norms of American law. Phone tapping, lifting of immigrants and

so on? We have always had phone tapping, the rules with respect to

immigration didn't change. Easier to look at citizens' records and go

into their homes? Not really, we took tactics used against drug

dealers, and for the first time, said we will use it against

terrorists. As between a marijuana dealer and a terrorist, it seems to

me to be tougher on the terrorist than the marijuana dealer. They

were controversial at the time, and people thought extraordinary. You

might say they were extraordinary times? It was unanimously passed by

the Senate. That in itself is an opinion of the Senate. Some would

say actually, what it was it was a blight on America for having to do

that. What you were essentially doing is infringing people's civil

liberties? No-one has yet pointed to the case where the Patriot Act

infringed on civil liberties. It allowed us to share information and

use the same techniques we have used for years in criminal cases in

terror cases. Now, of course, it has become part of the fabric of

the legal system in America, where as I think, even you said it would

only be a temporary measure. Do you think now it is permanent? I think

it is permanent. What it did is adapt us to a technological era of

the internet, which, frankly, the old law didn't allow us to address.

But what the Government wants to do here is, as it were, export freedom

abroad, you would presumably agree you are limiting people's freedom

here? I wouldn't agree with that. I would say measures in the act which

allowed us to share and analyse information, don't limit freedom.

What they do is actually allow freedom, they allow the freedom to

travel and the freedom to enjoy your life, which is basic.

Christiane Amanporu, let's take you back to the recollections of that

day on 9/11, what do you remember most clear? I was abroad, I was a

foreign correspondent for CNN at the time, I heard about it as I was

actually on a shoot in Sierra Leone, which was incredibly difficult to

get to, it was in the full throws of war, there was - thros of war,

there was no cellphones or airport functioning. We got trickles of

information back from my producer that this had happened. CNN had to

airlift me out to the story and to start covering T it was a visceral

and shocking moment, I had covered wars for many years up until then.

Never one that had happened in the United States and now getting ready

to cover the fall-out. I must say listening to your reported piece, I

do believe that it was absolutely the right decision to go to

Afghanistan. A country had been attacked, it was in self-defence,

more than that, the people of Afghanistan needed to be free of

the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, they voted with their feet in support of

being liberated. What about Iraq, that is a different story? I think

Iraq was a major mistake. It had little to do with the Al-Qaeda

problem. We took our eye of the ball. Instead of finishing the job

in Afghanistan, we went to Iraq, found ourselves in a quagmire there,

and then, of course, Afghanistan eventually turned into a quagmire

again, so the United States is stuck in two losing wars now.

do you say to Michael Chertoff's response that it had to be what it

had to be, because had you to go where you had to go? Michael

Chertoff and I agree on what the enemy was. I think the strategy we

employed to deal with that enemy was a boneheaded strategy. I think

we should have emphasised intelligence, and police work, and

not gone charging in to Iraq. boneheaded solution? I don't think

I would describe it as boneheaded. First of all, think you needed to

go into Afghanistan. People forget there were laboratories that the

9/11 Commission reported on, where they were experimenting with

chemical weapons, you had to get rid of. That we had to develop and

improve our intelligence system and we did. The proof is eliminating

Osama Bin Laden, that was the fruit of all that work. I think Iraq is a

kind of separate issue, but I think, with respect...You Accept that Iraq

is much more controversial? It is controversial and distinct. But

Afghanistan was very much at the core of what we had to do in

response to that. Now looking back do you still defend Iraq? That is a

long question. But it has to do with the legitimate concern that

for years Saddam Hussein had defied UN mandates about getting rid of

weapons, and hadn't fesed up to what he was doing. That had nothing

to do with Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda. By going into Iraq we maximised the

prospect that is we would fail in of a stkwapbs, because we took our

eye - Afghanistan, because we took our eye off the ball. You lost your

nephew, did you think the response in Iraq that proved to be so

controversial, was danging to the both the hunt - danger to both the

hunt and the capturing of Al-Qaeda. I was the only White House

personnel to have lost somebody in 9/11, if anyone was critical of the

policy that I was privvy to as a member of the President's senior

staff was me, but I was not. I was proud of the work that Michael

Chertoff of the work that he has done.

And all those who served the President at the time have done. We

have allowed ourselves to bring Iraq into a question about 9/11,

which I don't believe has a proper place. I think Iraq is totally

different than the response on the war on terror. I think we went into

Iraq for valid and proper provocation, by the fact he didn't

allow inspectors in. We allowed ourselves to be dragged into a

position I don't think is valid. You report for ABC around the world.

Looking at the response of different countries, and what you

are hearing from people about, particularly about Iraq, and the

way that Iraq was prosecuted, not only just in the invasion, but in

the post-period. How did people respond? With due difference to

those who have lost their loved - difference to those who have lost

their loved ones, Iraq did take the eye off the main fight, Al-Qaeda.

It did prolong the hunt for Osama Bin Laden. It caused people to look

at America in a different and negative way. I think one of the

great hopes now in this ten years after 9/11 is the Arab Spring.

Because there you have all these mums, whom America asked where are

the moderate mum, where are their voices, and Britain has asked that

as well, there they are as well, repudiateing Bin Ladenism,

repudiateing that philosophy of nihilism and hate, and asking for

progress, democracy and freedom. That is what we should focus on.

There is this debate about whether the Arab Spring is a direct result

of Iraq, what is your view on that? It will be difficult to prove, we

probably won't know for many years, first of all, with the outcome of

the Arab Spring, then we will have to figure out what was the causive

set of factors. What was important is trying to do what we can,

recognising it is limited, to encourage those tendencies that do

create an alternative narrative to extremism. But you have a situation

where, yes, there appears to be democracy in Iraq, but the story is

still very much unfold anything other Arab Spring countries?

key point to keep in mind is where the United States is today. Our

economy is in shambles, in good part because of the two wars and

the response to 9/11. Is it a safer place? Is it a safer place, I think

it is safer place. But it is not worth the price? No, that was not

the price, it would be a safer place if we had not gone into Iraq.

It was not necessary to go into Iraq to make it a safer place. It

was better to do good intelligence and police work and go into

Afghanistan and solve the problem there. But going into Iraq

complicated matters, we took our eye off the ball in Afghanistan,

and spent huge amounts of money, and bort wars have now gone sour.

Let's say there is democracy in Iraq, what happens, and there is

still Syria, which it is interesting to know what the

Americans will do if anything beyond pushing for more sanctions.

If the Arab Spring actually does not deliver this democracy that

George Bush wanted to export, and actually is hostile to America, and

they end up being dangerous, and lawless place, what can America do,

will you have other foreign interventions? Won't know for some

time how it turns out, whether we will get democratic states, or

whether the military will come in and run another dictatorships or

the countries will break apart. And we will have other platforms for

terrorism. The Arab Spring generated itself not from America.

It teaches us that we are in a world where technology and

globalisation means that even problems on the other side of the

globe can have an effect here in Times Square in New York city.

were talking about the flowering of countries into democracy, here we

have the greatest democracy in the world on its knees economically.

Has this decade seen the waning of American power? We have been

damaged in some place, I don't believe the execution of the war

and keeping ourselves safe has been the reason we face the economic

strive we face today, I don't believe that. There were other

systemic problems that created the crisis we are in. Having said, that

I believe that the United States is a great power. Have we lived up to

all we can be? Did we make mistakes? Sure we did, we made

mistakes not clearing Ground Zero and opening it up within 18 months

of the attack. The fact it is still like it is hurts me.

Do you think this is the end of American intervention?

absolutely not. Look at what is happening in Libya. Grapblted the -

granted for the first time in a NATO action the US didn't leave,

France and Britain led. It seems to be working. We shouldn't dump all

over the Arab Spring and think it will be a fundamentalist and anti-

western thing, give it a chance to play itself out. You have, of

course, the situation where the things that Bin Laden said, that

started his antagonism still exist, America is in Saudi Arabia and

Bahrain, is it time to recalibrate what America does abroad? The fact

is these people have risen up, not because of Iraq, but because they

have got and lived under the fist of dictatorship. Dictators who the

United States supported. Now foreign policy of the United States

will be tied to the street in that part of the world. Would you like

to see America taking a lead role, for example, against Assad and

Syria, is that America still to be the world's policeman? I don't want

to see the United States being the world's policeman, I believe in

self-determination. People in individual countries should figure

out for themselves what kind of political system they want to have,

and the United States should keep its nose out of people's business F

it goes in there, especially with ground forces, with social

engineering t will end up in the same situation as Iraq and

Afghanistan, which is disastrous, economically and stragically.

After 9/11, there was the feeling that in America the culture would

change forever. New York itself was physically scarred, and Americans

traumatised. Now with rebuilding well under way at Ground Zero, what

does the new New York tell us about There was this gash in the skyline.

The things that we saw is given, it is permanent.

The Twin Towers stood for Americans' hope and optimisim and

innocence in materialism, if you like. And that I think has gone.

Today, a new monumental structure is rising out of the void, and no

building in America's history has been so feted with expectation or

had such a tort rouse birth. No-one knew if it was hallowed ground or a

piece of real estate, whether to act out of emotion or economic

necessity. There was an international architecture

competition to produce a plan for the site.

The freedom tower won. Lined up with the Statue of Liberty and

encirleled with other towers, with a memorial at its heart.

Politicians and planners argued over the designs and eye vently the

master plan was parceled out to the different architects. His Freedom

Tower is now called more politically One World Trade. It is

still rising and David Childs is the architect. We are standing in

World Trade, looking through the mist at One World Trade. No

building has had such a torturous birth. Some people thought don't

build anything, run ahead and get something build. The emotions of

those who lost family on the site, all of that was real and

appropriate and we needed to recognise how difficult it was

going to be before we started. We also knew that at the end of the

day we didn't want to show this as a tortured building. We wanted it

to be simple and look right. Without anybody knowing the

difficulties. In the aftermath of the attacks,

there was the idea that nothing would be the same again in cultural

society, and things would change for the better. The heroism of the

rescue workers inspired a new wave of volunteerism all over the

country, and attendance at religious services was up. The idea

too was people would think more deeply about the meaning of life,

that would be reflected it television, literature and film.

America had been jolted out of its 90s babble of materialism and

escapism, or had it? America has Attention Deficit Disorder, and has

for years. It has no memory, and so we bounce back quickly. In some

ways, I think that's built into our character. It has a lot to do with

the establishment of the frontier, the constantly pushing west. I

think in some ways it is a laudible part of the American ethos. And in

another way, we don't often always learn from our mistakes. Author,

Jay McInerney, was one of the first writers to respond to 9/11. His

novel hit the spot of togetherness after the attacks, his main

characters fall in love after they neat volunteering. We got into the

habit of actually speaking to each other on the sidewalk. We got in

the habit of looking at the people who were riding in the elevator or

the subway with us. Because those people might be the last people we

see. Those people might be the people who rescue us. Those people

might be the people we rescue, or they might be carrying a bottle of

anthrax. We are more ware of our fellow citizens. It is no longer

uncool to help a stranger with directions, or in distress. I think

that my characters, looking back, would find that their lives weren't

as dras heically changed by the e- drasticically changed by the events

of 11th September. As the tenth anniversary approach, everyone is

trying to make sense of it and whether culture has changed? I was

reading my diary from that time. It is remarkable how in those weeks

you thought you would never think of anything materialistic again.

How could we be in a culture that cared about buying Prada clothes

and spending money on expensive restaurants. There was a period

that was obscene, and now everything has gone back to what it

was. In some ways, something has been lost too. There was a

remarkable time in the culture of 9/11 afterwards. A sense that

America had glimpseed a self that it wanted to be, and reaching out

to it. There was a real moment that was lost.

That loss of unity was highlighted last year in protests over another

controversial building project. The proposal to build an Islamic

community centre two blocks away from Ground Zero.

This old coat factory remains as it is while the wranglings continue.

Muslims here say life has got harder for them here in America.

And the research shows that those who think favourably about Islam

has gone down and down again. big question emerging from 9/11 and

last year's controversy about the proposed community centre, which I

had proposed and my dreamor the last 20 years s how will - dreams

for the last 20 years, is how will America engage with Islam. This is

the big and important question. This question has to be addressed.

Because unless it is addressed and until it is addressed

satisfactorily, it can continue to be a sore that can contribute to

social infection. The question of what to do with the memorial plazza

site at Ground Zero became all about healing those wounds. The

bases of the towers will have the names of all the victims of all

faiths. The park will eventually open on to the street. I wanted to

reflect how public spaces like union quair square and Washington

square acted as - union square and Washington Square acted as places

that brought us together. The civic quality of these place that is

acted as a binder, they held us together and allowed us to act as a

community. These place also allow people to come here, even if they

come alone, they will not be alone. They will walk and sit amongst the

trees in the landscape designed by Peter Walker. Do you think the fact

of it being here will move America forward? The people who began this,

the memorial was one part, a very important part. The rebirth of this

particular district was another. Both of those things are going to

show Americans that we can do this thing, we can recover, we can go on.

I think that we're part of that. I feel good about that.

Joining me now is Suzanne Vega, who has written songs inspired by 9/11.

The writer, Fran Leibowitz, journalist, Carl Bernstein, and

Rehan Salam, columnist with the Daily Beast. First, let's pick up

on the idea of divisions in America, is there an unease in America about

the war on terror still being prosecuted, the way America is

approaching the future and foreign policy? I think there absolutely is

a very deep divide, that divide has only expanded over the last decade.

I think it is to be expected, in this an affluent and stable society,

on one buffeted by economic turmoil, it is natural for such a society to

have these divisions, and what is unnatural is for those divisions to

go away. That tends to happen in time war and crisis. But this was a

weird hybrid moment. A cultural divide about what has happened in

the country? Yes, there is a tremendous cultural divide in this

country, it is worse by the second. Part of it is real, and part of it

is constantly incited by the media. In what way? By asking, "do you

think there is a cultural divide"! An approach to how the country

should lael itself, for example we had the whole situation whether -

heal itself, for example we had the whole situation about whether Islam

is welcome in this country? believe I can be wrong, but I'm not,

until September 2001, most Americans had hardly heard of Islam,

I believe that to be true. I don't think there was a particular

prejudice against Muslims, there was a total unawareness of the

religion itself. This is not Europe. We have a less, the good stuff

about America and New York, if you had said to someone before 11th

September there are people from this Muslim country, the first

thing they would have said, what do they eat?

What do you think has changed in the decade since 9/11? I think we

make a big mistake to use 9/11 as an example of a great moment of

change in America. I think all things we are talking about,

particularly the political divide predate 9/11. What 9/11 did,

politically, it enabled people who had agendas that were not perhaps

in the national interest, to pursue those agendas whether they had to

do with suspending some civil liberties, whether to do with

invading Iraq, which had nothing to do with the take itself. Whether

they had other jingositic, or perhaps demogogic, or perhaps

political objectives. But we have had this divide for a long time.

Both between right and left, between Conservative and Liberal,

Republican and Democrat. 9/11 might have exacerbated, but also this

particular city, New York, had a reel sillence. If this attack had

happened - resilience. If this attack had happened anywhere else

we would be talking different. This city came back in the way the

particular civic Compac was not riven, it came back together. That

was the most important aspect in terms of those who live here. Let's

not think, for instance, let me take a second here, I would say the

great moment of change in this country is the abolition of the

draft in the United States. Because we would never have gone into this

war in Iraq if we had a draft. Absolutely. Those members of

Congress would never have voted to go to war in Iraq. Hillary Clinton,

if Chelsea Clinton was going to war in Iraq, would Hillary Clinton as a

senator have voted to go to war in Iraq, I don't think any of them

would have. You need to look at what happened first, this event

came in the midst of something already going on. And now, yes,

there are some ripples, but is our economic situation the result of

9/11? No, it is the result of perhaps people who wanted to

capitalise on it. Looking back to 9/11, how do you think people want

to remember it? How do you remember it, and what impact has it had on

you, you have sung about it? Yes, well I think there is a collective

post-traumatic stress disorder we all have, especially in New York

city. Any time anything happens, a water main breaks, or an earthquake

that happened two weeks ago, which is very unusual, the first thing

you think is it is happening again. One thing about 9/11, you have

talked about healing and how can America go forward and heal, and I

think that any time you suffer from a trauma like, that the way to heal

is to get involved with something other than yourself. I agree with

Fran, when Fran said most people were not very aware of Muslim

culture. What I sense from the younger generation coming up is a

wish to dialogue, a kind of curiosity about the world outside

of America. I think that's one of the good things that has come out

of 9/11, if you can say anything good has come from it. Do you think

we should be rembering, particularly this weekend, this

anniversary and obviously with the opening of the memorial garden is a

special moment? It depend ones the person whether you think. That ten

years such a long time, in anyone's life, even someone as old as me.

When you say what has changed in ten years, everything has. In any

ten year period it is the same. If this had been done a year after it

was more connected. Ten years a long time. The only reason I

believe there is a concentration on ten years, is how long it takes to

do anything in York. Why are those buildings not built, they should

have been built in a year. What about the idea that the memorial

plas za will be a central thing for New Yorkers. It is such a focus for

tourist, people will want to come there as a particular place of

homage. Tourists want to come here in Times Square. You shouldn't look

at what they want. They come here. The people with a personal

connection with those who died is very meaningful, like the have the

nam memorial - Vietnam memorial. The vet mam memorial is much bigger

with many more names, it is an intense connection to those who

have relatives there. It is more like envisioning a grave. If your

son or daughter died in 9/11 you go to the Trade Centre, it means more

things and different to you than us as tourists. In ten years, the

composition of New York City's population has changed markedly.

Hundreds of thousands of native- born Americans have left, there are

hundreds and thousands of immigrants arrived, many of Muslim

origin and south Asian origin. It has changed the pace of life. While

there has been a rice of anti- Muslim sentiment in the country

itself, in New York City this is a country that has changed the way we

live and related to each other. you think you relate to each other

better than you did before, for example, you would suggest there

has been a change for the better for that, Suzanne Vega, that people

do reach out to people more? Not in the streets or subway. We're New

Yorkers, we don't want you to talk to us, we don't care who you are.

Do you think there is a return to the comfort zone? I was talking

more abstractly. Part of what you see happening in New York, New York

is a city where you have fabulously wealthy people, and hard scrabble

immigrants, they don't necessary engage in a lot of social

intercourse. New York is 30% non- Hispanic white. Think about New

York's eleets, and that population and those who dominate the media

landscape, it is more than 30% non- Hispanic white. These people are

making the city work are different. There is an organic unity of people

working together. What a lot of elites, and non-Hispanic white

elites don't understand, that these other people are not just victims

but take an active role. It is different from the wider America?

It is, but the wider America has gone in that, there is a shift in

Latino population. Many whites now are keenly aware of the fact that

demo graphically speaking they no longer define the American centre

as they once did. That is a huge part of what is changing our

politics now. When you were just talking about the site and the idea

that for a long time people were arguing about whether it was

hallowed ground or real estate, there is a natural assumption that

New York is about commerce, even in the middle of Ground Zero? I think

again we are oversimplifying too many things. It has to do with a

very complicated city in a very complicated country. Our essence in

this city is about rubbing elbows, that is the history of this city.

It is not just about money. It is about a huge number of people, the

biggest city in the country, who for a century-and-a-half, have had

this collective friction, and at the same time, this incredible

ability to move forward together. That remains, unbroken by this

event. Unbroken by this immigration that has occurred. We absorb this.

Yes, there is an awful lot of intellectual debate. We can have a

lot of these panels. But the fact is you go out there on Times Square

when we leave here, and everybody will be having a pretty good time

on the street. If this had happened in another city in America, I'm not

sure that would be the case. I don't think that we can attribute

all of these things to saying oh well 9/11 has changed us. Yes there

is a change in the way a lot of people look at Muslims in our

country, because they are more aware, and there is a relationship

formed in some people's minds. There is political realities that

came out of it, that excesser baited all kinds of things that

were - exacerbated all kinds of things that were going on already.

But in terms of it being an historic event that absolutely

changed the United States of America, I don't think it was.

There was a psychological impact on the people of the city? I feel that.

Whether it will last over a long period of time, whether in 100

years we will feel it in the same way, time will tell. You have

things like Gettysburg that resonates still with people, don't

you think this event will resonate still, because America was thought

impregnable and now there is an insecurity? I believe it will

resonate and for a long time. The United States role in the world has

changed, we are not the economic power we were in the world that we

were at that time. Do you think that is a as a result of 9/11?

think it is one of the things, I think that 9/11 definitely impacted

that, yes, I think so. I think it is part of the fabric. In terms of

money wasted on a war. That's true. In Iraq perhaps. And the feeling of

insecurity. Do you think there is a vulnerability about America that

didn't exist before, maybe it was ramped up but it did exist before?

I think that is one of the things. Sure, again, if 3,000 pem are

killed there is going - people are killed there is going to be that

feeling. Look at Oklahoma City, and look at the impact of the bombing

on that town. It defines that town today. I would not say that 9/11

defines us. Of course not. Do you think that America is both more

vulnerable and a lesser player in the world now? Because of 9/11?

because of the decade subsequently? I agree with Carl on this inset,

there is so many other factors. I also, it is true that as a New

Yorker when that earthquake happened, I was standing at my

kitchen sink and it shook, and I thought there was a bomb in the

subway, because my building is over it. I would never have thought that

before, that there was a bomb, it would never occur to me. You have

that feeling. But Oklahoma City, the difference is, before the

bombing of Oklahoma City, it was Oklahoma City, it still is, we were

New York before, we still are. I mean, I think that high

consciousness of ethnicity and race and religion is bad. I don't think

it is good. I think that it has been heightened by that. But one

thing about New York, Carl is right, it is not that New Yorkers are

delightful and they love each other, it is that they tolerate each other.

For toleration we will leave you now in New York. We leave you with

images from that day, ten years ago, that followed on from there.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 70 seconds

Really quite a mild night out there. Warm start to the weekend. But a

grey and damp start for many of us. Writer skies in the east, late

morning sunshine here. This band of rain works across Wales and South-

West England and spreading across the Midlands into north-east

England into the afternoon. North West England brightens up. The

cloud and rain drifting towards East Anglia, before the rain

arrives, temperatures could reach 22-23. The rain arriving to the

south-east for the late afternoon. After a dreary start the south west

brightens up, a dry end to the day. A few blustery showers drifting in.

The breeze will be strengthening throughout the day. Pretty windy

across north and west Wales, there will be spells of sunshine.

Throughout the day there will be sunshine. Showers in Northern

Ireland, here the winds getting strong through the afternoon and

evening. Particularly blustery across North West Scotland late in

the day. A grey start for most of Scotland, some places will see

afternoon sunshine. The wind picking up during Saturday evening.

A blustery day on Sunday. Some sun yi spells, showers in most places,

especially wet in western Scotland and Northern Ireland. The winds

will strengthen further on Sunday evening and into Monday. They are a