Browse content similar to 17/10/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good evening. The violence in Syria looks increasingly like the early | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
stages of a civil war. Tonight we report undercover from inside the | :00:14. | :00:20. | |
most troubled city of all. Some days the Syrian army shoots on | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
sight on the streets of Homs. Yet the civilians still come out night | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
after night to demonstrate. These protests are taking place | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
every night in Homs, with apparently unabated enthusiasm, | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
which is impressive, not least because they have been going on for | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
seven months now, and so little has been achieved. | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
This, a makeshift A&E ward in someone's home is where the | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
casualties come, it is too dang us to go to hospital. TRANSLATION: | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
would go into hospital with a treatable injury to his hand, and | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
the family would be summoned to collect a body with a shot in the | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
head. He did break the Ministerial Code, | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
but what really happened when the defence skebt and his close friend | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
met the President - Defence Secretary and his close friend met | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
the President of Sri Lanka. We ask why politicians shouldn't | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
have their own advisors to balance the hand of the British bureaucracy. | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
One day, perhaps, electricity pylons will look like this, or this. | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
God only knows what we will be paying for the stuff then. But | :01:27. | :01:37. | |
Government's advice? Short it out for yourself. | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
Syrian Government troops killed at least 20 people in the city of Homs | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
today. At least we're told by local activists they killed at least 20 | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
persons. There is no way of checking, because the regime there | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
won't let in independent witnesses. President Assad's mouth pieces | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
claim that the only violence in the country is coming from so-called | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
terrorists. But the unrest seems especially acute in the city of | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
Homs. So our reporter, Sue Lloyd- Roberts, smuggled herself into the | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
country in defiance of the ban to find out firsthand what is | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
happening. Now, as you're not supposed to be in the country, how | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
do you get? I don't want to giveaway too many secrets. I was | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
lucky enough to link up with a very intelligent and brave group of | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
activists, who, by using a number of cars, various disguises, | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
travelling a lot at night, a lot of tall stories at army checkpoints, | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
managed to smuggle me into the city of Homs. It was a very impressive | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
operation. And if these activists were able to win the Syrian | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
revolution, by virtue of their cunning and intelligence alone, | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
they deserve to. All the protestors are determined to keep their | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
demonstrations peaceful. So far it is mostly only the Syrian army that | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
have the weapons. I have been talking to members of my network in | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
Homs tonight, and the situation appears to be really dire. They are | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
talking about more than 20 fatalities, although that has yet | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
to be confirmed. And the use, for the first time, of helicopter | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
gunships. So things are deteriorating. But this is what I | :03:11. | :03:21. | |
:03:21. | :03:24. | ||
Homs, the so-called capital of the Syrian revolution. Where, despite | :03:24. | :03:31. | |
the daily death toll, the protest continues. | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
But the tactics have changed. Most demonstrations are being held at | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
night, in an effort to minimise casualties. | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
And, as the only journalist here to view the protest firsthand, I noted | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
another significant difference. Back in March, when they began, the | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
protestors called for reform, then they called for the fall of the | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
regime. Today, as the name of each atrocity and massacre, carried out | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
by Assad's army and his thugs is called out, the crowd respond by | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
demanding the death of the President. | :04:09. | :04:17. | |
By hanging. These protests are taking place | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
every night in Homs now, with parently unabated enthusiasm, which | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
is impressive, not least because they have been going on for seven | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
months now, and so little has been achieved. | :04:28. | :04:37. | |
But this, I'm reminded, is not the point. TRANSLATION: I haven't seen | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
anything like this in my life. The old, the young, women, everyone | :04:42. | :04:52. | |
:04:52. | :04:56. | ||
calling for freedom in Syria. This revolution will win. | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
I'm told to run as shots are heard, and soldiers are seen at the end of | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
the street. We should hide because when the forces attack, the first | :05:06. | :05:14. | |
thing they are looking for is a camera. | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
Homs was one of the first cities to join the Syrian uprising, when | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
thousands gathered in the main square to call for the lifting of | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
the Government's emergency laws, and for genuine democracy. | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
But the Government was not in the mood for listening. | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
Ahmed was a member of the military security, whose job it is to shoot | :05:35. | :05:43. | |
soldiers who refuse to fire on the protestors. He has since defected. | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
TRANSLATION: It was a genocide. I was there. The protestors had | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
started their sit-in, and there was a call for extra troops. I saw | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
soldiers who refused to fire on the crowds, because we used to lead | :06:00. | :06:10. | |
:06:10. | :06:13. | ||
them. We were in the same tanks as them, and they were shot. I don't | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
know how many protestors were killed. But it was more than 300. | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
Because I was stepping over dead bodies. They threw the bodies into | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
trucks, and then used fire engines to hose down the square. It was | :06:28. | :06:38. | |
:06:38. | :06:41. | ||
like a river of blood. Yes, there was a massacre. The army has | :06:41. | :06:51. | |
:06:51. | :06:56. | ||
encirleled and attacked Homs ever since. I was take on a tour of one | :06:56. | :07:06. | |
of the most besieged parts of the city. My guide equipped me with a | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
fake local ID to get us past checkpoints and told me to pretend | :07:10. | :07:18. | |
to be his deaf, mute sister, which suited me fine. | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
TRANSLATION: Most of the time the city is under attack. Mothers can't | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
even go out to buy bread or milk for their children. People are | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
hiding in their houses, they can't go out. Buses are used to transport | :07:31. | :07:39. | |
the army. Even schools are attacked, and they are using some of them as | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
prisons for the protestors. They want our children to remain stupid | :07:45. | :07:53. | |
and uneducated. Look at the rubbish in the streets, this is how they | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
treat us. We have rats, but no water, electricity or communication | :07:58. | :08:07. | |
here. There is an army patrol ahead, we | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
have to go another way. He took me to meet Mohammed, one of | :08:13. | :08:23. | |
:08:23. | :08:29. | ||
the soldiers, who was ordered to attack the people of the town. | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
TRANSLATION: When it came to here, we were ordered to kill everything | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
that moved, everyone who was walking in the street. There were | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
children, one of them called his friends who were playing in the | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
street to come into his house for safety. As they were crossing the | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
street they killed the boy and another six children. He told me he | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
had just defected from the army to join the opposition the day before. | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
TRANSLATION: Our orders were to kill the Syrian people, it was | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
never the plan to protect them from the armed gangs. Rather we were | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
being ordered to kill our own people, who, at the end of the day, | :09:08. | :09:18. | |
:09:18. | :09:30. | ||
are our own flesh and blood. With the city in virtual shutdown, | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
there is nowhere to go. No wonder angry people spill out on to the | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
streets at night. At another demonstration, the next evening, | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
they had clearly been tipped off that the BBC was in town. The | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
posters were all designed for an international audience, and | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
expressed fury at Russia and China's refusal to back action | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
against Syria, and for continuing to supply arms to a murderous | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
regime. Members of the revolutionary | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
Council of Homs, may look like they are taking an exaggerated approach | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
to their anonymity. But it is understandable. Is Syria now close | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
to civil war? The regime is trying to push us to be involved in a | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
civil war. But, it will not succeed. We are aware enough of the risk. | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
The demonstrations, you can see the Muslims and the Christians, the | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
Sunni and others, marching together and shouting for freedom for all | :10:33. | :10:42. | |
people. So that our real enemy is the regime itself. On Friday, the | :10:42. | :10:50. | |
protest still takes place during the day, after midday prayers. The | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
protestors attempt to block off roads to delay the arrival of the | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
security forces. In a network of makeshift field hospitals, they are | :10:58. | :11:06. | |
preparing for the inevitable casualties. Doctors have been | :11:06. | :11:16. | |
:11:16. | :11:16. | ||
arrested and tortured for helping gun shot victims. TRANSLATION: | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
normal thing would be to take the injured to the hospitals. To our | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
astonishment we found that when we did that, the injured were either | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
arrested or killed. A man would go into the hospital with a treatable | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
injury to his hand or leg, and his family would be summoned to collect | :11:34. | :11:41. | |
a corpse with a shot to the head or chest. | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
But these medical points are hopelessly inadequate. They have to | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
move once a week to escape detection, and they are desperately | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
short of the basics, blood bags, antibiotics and even antiseptic | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
wipes. TRANSLATION: Even in this place, at | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
any time, we are in danger of being broken into by the security forces. | :12:04. | :12:12. | |
About half of them suffer from head or neck wounds. We just haven't got | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
the means to treat them. No-one brought here with a head wound has | :12:17. | :12:27. | |
survived. That day, at the Friday protest, always the bloodiest, his | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
worst fears were proven. Security forces shot at men as they | :12:32. | :12:42. | |
:12:42. | :12:46. | ||
tried to leave the mosque to join the demonstration. They risked | :12:46. | :12:56. | |
:12:56. | :12:59. | ||
bullets as they ran. (shouting and gunfire) | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
Two men suffered severe head injuries and were rushed to the | :13:02. | :13:11. | |
field hospital. We followed them there. Their | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
injuries were too gruesome to broadcast and the doctors could do | :13:13. | :13:23. | |
:13:23. | :13:25. | ||
nothing to save them. They were buried the next day. A | :13:25. | :13:32. | |
day in which another 13 were killed in the city. | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
Homs may boast the title of the capital of the revolution. But it | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
has cost them dear. Over 3,000 deaths in the Syrian uprising so | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
far, and many believe it has been much more, nearly half have been | :13:46. | :13:56. | |
from Homs. 30kms away, across the border in | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
Lebanon, sympathetic Lebanese have sheltered increasing numbers of the | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
wounded and defected soldiers, now in hiding. | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
Tens of thousands of soldiers are now believed to have left the | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
Syrian army. Those who can, have grouped together to form what they | :14:11. | :14:21. | |
:14:21. | :14:24. | ||
call the Free Syrian army. This man, when ordered to shoot on un armed - | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
unarmed protestors fled. It is the real army, this Free Syrian Army, | :14:30. | :14:37. | |
consists of a lot of groups, separated among all Syrian places, | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
or sinnian cities, trying to protect - Syrian cities, trying to | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
protect the protestors from being killed on the streets. Weapons have | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
never been hard to find here in Lebanon, but this dealer showed me | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
how the cupboard is now almost bare. He's importing weapons, he says, | :14:54. | :15:02. | |
from all over the world. Where? And the price of Kalashnikov has | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
doubled from $1,000 to almost $2,000 over the last few weeks. Who | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
is buying them? Tran They are being bought by Sunni and Islamist - | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
TRANSLATION: They are being bought by Sunni and Islamists and being | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
smuggled over the border to Syria. Many are confiscated. For sure, | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
with the amount of weapons we are sending over there, there will be a | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
civil war. When demonstrations erupted in the | :15:32. | :15:38. | |
town of Rastan, just 15kms from Homs, a group of army defectors, | :15:39. | :15:48. | |
:15:49. | :15:52. | ||
members of the Free Syrian Army, promised to defend the protestors. | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
They held out against Government forces for a week. Before the | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
Syrian Army quashed the rebellion. The rumour is, that the survivors, | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
among the new army, are regrouping and preparing to defend Homs, a | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
possibility which the leaders here welcome. | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
The demonstration part of the revolution will continue peacefully. | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
But on the other hand, the operations of the Free Syrian Army | :16:20. | :16:27. | |
may increase more and more, to protect the people. So we have now | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
two lines going together simultaneously. The peaceful | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
demonstrations and the operations of the Syrian Free Army. The basic | :16:37. | :16:46. | |
duty of the army of any state is to protect the people. We will win, of | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
course, we see the victory in the eyes of the kids, women, elders and | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
all the young men Marching every day in the demonstration - marching | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
every day in the demonstration. We are sure of that. They are marching | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
again in Homs tonight, in a brave display in the triumph of hope over | :17:02. | :17:11. | |
seven months experience. They will carrying on telling Bashar al-Assad | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
to go, one protestor told me, even if he has to kill every one of them. | :17:16. | :17:26. | |
:17:26. | :17:26. | ||
With us now my guest, who was shot last month, you may have seen the | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
interview when he escaped from the country. Feeda Kardous saw it and | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
was insensed by it, she's Syrian and lives in this country and | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
returns to Damascus every year. It looks from the report if things are | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
getting a lot worse? They are getting really worse. They want to | :17:40. | :17:46. | |
stop it and they will stop it in any way. They have got tanks, new | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
army individuals, and they are shooting at houses now. They are | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
arresting anyone under 60 years old. They are raping girls, taking them, | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
raping them so we will stop doing what we are doing, they are being | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
threatened about raping the girls in Homs. It looks as if your | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
country son the verge of civil war - is on the verge of civil war, | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
doesn't it? It is, if the free army, or the opposition, or the armed | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
rebels, they don't stop, and resort to dialogue, this is where the | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
country is heading. But you don't deny that most of the killing has | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
been done by the army and the Government forces? If that's the | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
case, what about the Syrian free army, what about it? Who is killing | :18:36. | :18:43. | |
our security, who is killing the army people, individuals, I don't | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
think so. I don't think so. These are people who were, as you heard | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
somebody testify there, they were members of the Syrian security | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
forces, ordered to shoot their own soldiers if they refused to shoot | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
demonstrators? They are claims. Everything to do with the | :19:02. | :19:09. | |
opposition now is all claims, to us, what we want is just we want the | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
country, we don't want a bloodbath, we don't want a civil war, we don't | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
want our children to get killed. We don't want you to get killed. We | :19:20. | :19:29. | |
don't want that. We only want to just have a peaceful transformation | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
to power. First of all, we have never had any sectarian problems in | :19:35. | :19:42. | |
Syria, in all our history. I beg to differ. Let me finish. We have | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
never had sectarian problems, if there is, the Government is trying | :19:44. | :19:52. | |
to do it. Why would they do it now. It went into all the Christian | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
places, it told the churches and the Christians that they would get | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
them next and said we did it. My friends are Christians, we have | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
never had any problems. You are a Christian too? I am a Christian. | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
What reforms, he has killed all the people, what kind of reforms can | :20:09. | :20:17. | |
this Government do? You have heard what they are saying on TV. This | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
started out as a campaign for reform in the Arab Spring, it has | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
gon gone way beyond that, you wouldn't see Assad doing any | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
reform? I was one of the people who went out. We were so scared to say | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
we don't want the regime. So we went out for Deraa, that is in Homs, | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
we went out and said we don't want the mayor. When the first bullet | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
came out, the first man to be shot, we just asked for the regime to | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
leave. No-one was scared any more. We thought well, we're not going to | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
live like this, we're not going to be treated like animals all our | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
lives. Go to any security place to try to get anything, see how you | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
get treated in there. It has been like this for 40 years. If you can | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
get to that security place. I'm talking about Homs, can you get and | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
walk freely in Homs? No you can't walk freely? I wonder why? Because | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
all the army and. All the army Danny? I'm sorry. Don't be sorry, I | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
have been there, they shot me, they shot three kids in front of me two | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
months ago, it is by the army and they have civilians with machine | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
guns standing with them, what does that mean, mercenaries? What about | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
the hospitals. The defected army? What about the arms that have been | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
smuggled to Homs? There might be. Individuals, all these arms. I tell | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
you something, if I was in their place, which I know they are not | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
doing anything right now, anyone wants to protect themselves. What | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
about the security forces, you are killing security forces. No, no, no. | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
Look I'm sorry. The army is being killed by the security forces, the | :21:55. | :22:01. | |
army is, you heard this, the army that is not shooting, I'm sure of | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
this 100%. What is it you fear may be the consequence of what's | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
happening? This is it, we're going to go into civil war, simple as | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
that. Simple as that. I'm 100% behind that. I know we're going to | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
go. If you tell me, or anyone else tells me that we're not going to go | :22:20. | :22:29. | |
to civil war, highly mistaken. Whose fault is that? Because we | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
wanted freedom. Let me say this, you have been living in Syria, you | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
know that I can't say the President's name in the street | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
freely, is that freedom. Can I have my word. I have been to Syria this | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
summer. I have been in a cab, OK, I'm Christian, I have been in a cab, | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
on the way back, when I got to my destination, I get the cab driver | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
he turned to me and he said, once we get to power, you're not going | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
to get to wear what you are wearing now. I have heard that ten times | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
now. Exactly, so what kind of freedom. It is a legitimate fear, | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
you don't know how this is going to turn out? No I don't. The Assad | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
regime is a secular regime? Can I try to explain something. All the | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
girls kidnapped are by cabs, all the intelligence cabs, they are | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
trying to make sectarian problems between us. In Damascus. I'm not | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
saying Damascus. I'm not saying that. In Damascus they are like | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
ants there, there is so many security forces. I'm sorry. Don't | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
be sorry, I'm telling the truth. You don't know how it is going to | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
turn out? We need outside help? would prefer a dictatorship? I want | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
reforms, Jeremy. I don't want dictatorships. Reforms over all the | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
bodies. What about the ones the opposition has claimed. Let's leave | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
it there. Thank you very much. Now, the Defence Secretary, who | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
resigned at the end of last week, did break the Ministerial Code, the | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
BBC understands the Cabinet Secretary delivered his report to | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
the Prime Minister this afternoon. It will be published tomorrow. But | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
he won't be making recommendations about the way ministers and | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
lobbyists deal with each other. Like political advisors, who have | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
spread like a rash across Government, lobbyists can be found | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
under most of the stones of Westminster. But did Adam | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
Werritty's actions amount to lobbying, if so, who were the | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
potential clients? Richard Watson has new evidence involving the | :24:37. | :24:45. | |
Government of Sri Lanka. It was a more gentile affair in 163 | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
as the press waited for Secretary of State John Profumo, but they got | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
their man, after details of his relationship with Christine Keeler | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
emerged. The Government has seen high-profile resignations over the | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
years, but few could match the fall from grace of Liam Fox. The drip, | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
drip of allegations and detail proved too much on Friday. The | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
Government says tomorrow's official report from Cabinet Secretary, Gus | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
O'Donnell, will establish the facts. There is still no commitment to | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
publish details of meetings Adam Werritty had with other ministers. | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
The Government seems to be digging a deeper hole for itself. It has | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
given the inquiry into Gus O'Donnell, it should have gone to | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
the independent Patrick Moore. That is a mistake. Not publishing - | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
Philip Moore, that is a mistake. Not publishing the list. The lesson | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
of the Liam Fox scandal is transparency. Whatever you do is | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
put it out there, if not you will get caught and get into problems. | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Will more light be shed on this encounter last year, when Liam Fox | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
and his unofficial advisor, Adam Werritty, met on private business | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
with the President of Sri Lanka in a London hotel. I found there has | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
been a lot of fear, even in London, about speaking openly about this | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
story, such is the power of the President of Sri Lanka. Who many | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
say has a poor record in human rights and freedom of speech. Given | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
that record, what was Dr Fox and Adam Werritty doing developing a | :26:14. | :26:21. | |
relationship with that man. This evening I spoke to a man who | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
may help answer that question. He has been a leading figure in the | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
United National Party here in Britain, which opposes the | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
Government of the President. He says during the civil war in 2009, | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
he helped arrange a meeting for a leading human rights campaigner and | :26:40. | :26:48. | |
politician based in Colombo with Liam Fox at port cull tis House. Mr | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
Fox was Shadow Defence Secretary at the time. - at Portcullis House. Mr | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
Fox was Shadow Defence Secretary at the time. So Adam Werritty gave me | :26:58. | :27:05. | |
this. It clearly says Adam Werritty, office of Dr Liam Fox MP, it has | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
the official Portcullis insignia on it as well? Indeed it does. I guess | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
you would have every reason to believe he was an official advisor? | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
Absolutely. I have no reason to think otherwise. Inside Portcullis | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
House, the two Sri Lankans were intent on talking about human | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
rights abusive, but they say Dr Fox was supportive of the President, | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
and was keener to discuss investment and construction. | :27:32. | :27:40. | |
wanted to talk about investment in Sri Lanka. He was enthusiastic and | :27:40. | :27:50. | |
:27:50. | :27:51. | ||
passionate about some sort of investment programme, or venture he | :27:51. | :27:59. | |
had in mind. He wanted to talk more about investment than the other | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
issues which were undoubtedly the pressing issues at the time. | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
human rights abuses? Indeed. We are told the Sri Lankan Development | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
Trust was mentioned, which appears to be a vehicle for reconstruction | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
work, championed by Adam Werritty and Liam Fox. We were told the two | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
men were keen to identify rich Sri Lankans in the UK who might help | :28:23. | :28:30. | |
out. We spoke to an opposition leader in Sri Lanka and he said | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
Adam Werritty and Liam Fox were well known there. I met Liam Fox | :28:35. | :28:45. | |
:28:45. | :28:46. | ||
We couldn't reach Liam Fox or Adam Werritty for comment tonight. Did | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
Adam Werritty's work amount to political lobbying? If so, it would | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
be embarrassing for the Prime Minister, who set out his stall | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
before the election. There is, I believe, another big issue we can | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
no longer ignore. It is the next big scandal waiting to happen. It | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
is an issue, that frankly, crosses party lines, and has tainted our | :29:04. | :29:10. | |
politics for too long. It is an issue that exposes the far too cosy | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
relationship between politics, Government, business and money. | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
Liam Fox affair has nothing to do with lobbying, a former Defence | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
Secretary and his friend, it wouldn't have prevented the Liam | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
Fox afar or discovered it. It is completely irrelevant to the Liam | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
Fox affair. When politicians are naughty and get caught, they blame | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
lobbyists. It is about time politicians got their own house in | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
order and stopped blaming other people. Tomorrow will bring the | :29:38. | :29:45. | |
official verdict on Liam Fox, the BBC uns he will be judged to have | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
broke - understands he will be judged to have broken the | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
Ministerial Code and it will have been judged that it right he has | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
gone. But the question is about his relationship with Adam Werritty and | :29:56. | :30:03. | |
whether this scandal will force a look at the lobbyists and the work | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
of advisors. With us is Matt Hancock and Lord Butler, Cabinet | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
Secretary and head of the Civil Service for a decade, until 1998, | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
serving Margaret Thatcher, John Major and Tony Blair. | :30:14. | :30:21. | |
Matt Hancock, why do MPs need all these hangers on? The question is | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
it about lobbyists or others? Advisors? I think political | :30:25. | :30:31. | |
advisors can help a lot in Government, to help make sure that | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
when a Government is elected that they can drive through the reforms | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
they want. We are not talking about huge numbers. But we are talking | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
about a minister having a few people around him who he can rely | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
on, who share his political agenda, which is, afterall, a good thing. | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
We want people who want to improve the country to be running the | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
country. This shouldn't be necessary, if we had a decent Civil | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
Service shouldn't they? The Civil Service is one source of advice. I | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
never thought the Civil Service should have a monopoly of advice to | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
ministers. My view has always been that ministers should get advice | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
from as many useful sources as possible, some politic ka and some | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
non-political. During my career I worked harmoniously with special | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
advisors, outside advisors, as long as they were giving useful advice | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
to ministers, and there was a transparent debate, and the Civil | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
Service wasn't being cut out, that was great. But this is about what | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
you didn't call, but which was called sofa Government, isn't it? | :31:37. | :31:47. | |
don't think it is, actually. The problem about sofa-Government, is | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
the problem was there wasn't the all the resources being brought in. | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
There were small groups without using the resources Civil Service | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
could provide, good papers that couldn't be provided to the cabinet. | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
That was my criticism. Don't you worry that what this Adam Werritty- | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
Liam Fox affair reveals, is it is still going on? I think what this | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
shows is that there are two very important things. First of all, | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
have advisors, but don't use them as way of bypassing the Civil | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
Service. Let's work together. The second thing, of course, is, that | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
the status of an advisor ought to be clear. If the status isn't clear, | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
and if particularly you don't know how that advisor is being financed, | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
then you are running a great risk. You risk a conflict of interest. | :32:36. | :32:43. | |
What lesson do you draw? I think that transparency is the most | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
important lesson, and in the coalition agreement it says that we | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
should have a register of the lobbyists and trast transparency. I | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
think that's the - transparency. I think that is the key lesson, when | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
you're trying to run the Government, you ought to be very open about how | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
you are doing it, as well as about the goals that you are trying to | :33:04. | :33:11. | |
pursue. It is absolutely key, isn't it, that the taxpayer knows what | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
lobbyists ministers are meeting, what they are discussing, and that | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
there is an independent witness there taking proper notes? If there | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
are, we talk about lobbyists in this way, but remember this is also | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
about how to consult on the best future of Government policy. Let me | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
give you an example. The British Horse Racing Authority, you might | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
call them a lobbyist, they actually work extremely hard for the | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
betterment of a sport that millions of your viewers will enjoy. So, | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
having those sorts of contacts is crucial for a Government, for any | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
politician to have a feel for what's happening on the real world. | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
You are constantly telling people on this programme you have got to | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
be more in touch, and so, being able to have those sorts of | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
conversations is important. Let's be transparent about it. There is a | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
register, which we have been promised, since long before the | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
election, by your party, still not in existence? It is in the | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
coalition agreement, and I don't know whether you have noticed, but | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
in the last year-and-a-half, there have been an awful lot of reforms | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
going on and things going in through Parliament. Are you | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
confident about the way that lobbyists deal with ministers? | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
providing that is transparent. you feel it is? I don't think it is | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
sufficiently yet. No, but I can think of examples, like Matthew can, | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
of where lobbyists produced information that was really | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
important in our international negotiations, which ministers | :34:41. | :34:47. | |
didn't get from the Civil Service. So I wouldn't...Why Are the Civil | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
Service so purrblind? The Civil Service can't know everything. | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
is not the impression you always give? The man in Whitehall doesn't | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
always know best. We have to have a humility about this, and there is | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
expertise and perspective that can be brought from outside Government. | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
And it should be. Provided that you can avoid conflicts of interest. | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
The really important thing with lobbyists is neither the minister | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
nor the civil servant, to whom they have access, should get any | :35:17. | :35:24. | |
personal gain from the access which they have. How do we guarantee | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
that? Only by transparency, that is the way it has to be done. You were | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
just saying we haven't adequate transparency? That is one of the | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
lessons to be learned from this sort of episode. Dramatic action is | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
being taken to cut the soaring cost of people's energy bills. That is | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
not the headline to emerge from the talks between the Government and | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
companies that provide gas and electricity. Anyone who has paid a | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
bill recently will know how expensive energy has become. And | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
the regulator predicts massive profits for suppliers. The | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
conclusion from the meeting, if you want your bill to fall, it is up to | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
you. On the admittedly outside chance | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
that you think that the biggest problem with Britain's energy | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
supply is the shape of the pylons. Well, good news, there has been a | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
competition to come up with some new designs. Some interesting ideas, | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
some clearly getting a bit carried away. For most people, though, | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
there are other, more pressing energy problems, like, well, the | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
size of the bills. The first problems with energy bills, though, | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
is the sheer complexity of the tarrifs. | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
The Government wants us to know it's on our side. So it held an | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
energy summit today with the energy suppliers, telling them to get | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
their acts together. The agreement reached was, well, a bit | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
predictable. So much so it had been printed on posters already. | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
should be checking to see if we're on the cheapest tarrif, we should | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
switch if not. And taking the opportunity ahead of this winter, | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
to really make sure that we are insulating, so we can save money. | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
Those are messages that all of the participants have been able to | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
agree around, not everything is agreed. I do think we have a very | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
substantial measure of agreement. You only have to come here to the | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
energy hall at the Science Museum to see generating power has always | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
been a powerfully complex business. But many experts believe our modern | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
problem, trying to understand energy tarrifs and which supplier | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
is best for us, is actually not the problem, it is a symptom of the | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
problem. The problem itself is an energy market that no longer works. | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
There is, in these circumstances, you know, a desperate attempt by | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
politicians to think that some how they can magic low Erbils, the | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
answer is, in the short run, apart from forcing companies to do things | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
they don't want to do, there is very little they can do. But what | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
politicians could do and should do is to provide a framework in which | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
the market works properly. That is precisely what is missing now, and | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
that's what they should pay their attention to. Ed Miliband agrees. | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
He knows a lot about energy, he used to be Energy Secretary. But, | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
since leaving that job, and taking on the job of leader of the | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
opposition, well he's also taken on the view that the energy market is | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
rigged. The Government's job is to say | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
we're going to reform the way the market works, we are going to make | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
sure we end this rigged market, once and for all, and we have a | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
fairer deal for consumers and a more transparent energy market. | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
Frankly I think the Government is just engaging in warm words. | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
energy market wasn't supposed to be like it is now. When it was | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
deregulated in 2000, we had 21 electricity and 19 gas suppliers, | :38:46. | :38:52. | |
all bucking for our pounds. Now, though, it is down to just six | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
companies, supplying both fuels. And it is not just the number of | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
energy companies that's dwindled, they have changed. They now | :39:00. | :39:07. | |
generate their own splie supply. In the jargon, their vertically | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
integrated. It is extraordinaryly difficult to price open the | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
mechanism of this particular market, to find out whether the prices the | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
energy companies charge are anything like fair. It is certainly | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
possible, through leg mit get accounting mechanisms to show | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
profit in different parts of the supply chain. That means energy | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
companies can say to consumers, we are not making money as a retail | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
business, but they can say to investors, look how buoyant the | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
balance sheet is as a generator. It is about the impossibility of get | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
to go the heart of what these energy companies are make and | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
because that is not fashion and the market cannot be trusted, we have | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
to have prime ministerial summits to sort it out. | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
So, let's see, we have got to insulate the loft, shop around for | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
the best deal, ministers have to redesign the energy market. Is | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
there anything else we should be doing? According to some, the most | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
important thing, is to abandon targets for cutting greenhouse gas | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
emissions. The Government is committed at present to cutting our | :40:11. | :40:17. | |
C02 by 80% by 2050. One Downing Street report estimated this would | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
cost each consumer �300 a year in more expensive energy. The total | :40:22. | :40:29. | |
investment needed is somewhere between �100-�200 billion. The | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
Chancellor is worried, he thinks it might hurt business, as he told | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
this year's Conservative Party Conference. But Britain makes up | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
less than 2% of the world's carbon emissions to China and America's | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
40%. We're not going to save the planet by putting our country out | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
of business. Let's at the very least resolve that we are going to | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
cut our carbon emissions no slower, but also no faster than our fellow | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
countries in Europe. Politicians need to think hard before embarking | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
on what is a very costly way of achieving very little by way of | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
emissions reductions, and putting those burdens on customers, who as | :41:08. | :41:18. | |
I say, may just simply not be able to pay. | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
You could hear everything before? The Prime Minister was looking ever | :41:21. | :41:27. | |
so slightly today like a double glazing salesman. He wants to | :41:27. | :41:36. | |
emphasise insulation and competition. But it may turn up the | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
heat on the Government. At this point you want to hear the | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
Government say why it won't intervene to stop spiralling prices. | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
And the Energy Secretary did agree to sit on that chair in our | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
Westminster studio, as you can see it remains ungraced by the | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
ministerial bottom, who cancelled about 20 minutes or so before it | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
was due to happen. However the shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
Flint, is less of a shrinking violet, she's here. You are not | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
seriously maintaining there is some way of cutting people's energy | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
bills, other thant mechanism suggested today? I am suggesting | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
there is way energy bills could be cut. We could be making demands on | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
the energy companies to reduce or postpone their prices. Why did'nt | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
you do that in Government? Interestingly, back in 2009, we did | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
negotiate with the energy companies to keep prices lower for the | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
800,000 low income households, that was in force up to March of this | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
year. We also had various other ways to keep prices down. But the | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
fact is, prices are going up. Even though wholesale prices are going | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
down. The honest person, as your leader, Ed Miliband is an honest | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
person, he said there is no low- cost option? We can't necessary | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
completely manage prices, but we ask the question, why is it, in our | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
country, something like 80% of people, aren't on the tarrif that | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
does the best deal for them. That is precisely what the Government is | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
suggesting today, find out? Government are saying go tomorrow | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
and switch. The problem when customers have tried to switch, | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
they have found they are not given the right information, and they | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
have been mis-sold packages that don't give them the best deal. | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
would do it for them? We have said, as well as more pressure on the | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
energy companies, we have a simpler tarrif system, we have 400 tarrifs | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
increasing year-on-year. Let's bring it down to one standing | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
charge set by Ofgem, and unit prices so we can all see which | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
energy company is offering what to us and we can make a decision that | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
is clear and fair. You accept that green policies do put up the cost | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
of energy? It is interesting about this, Jeremy, I wanted to look at | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
where green investment figured into the price. Actually, investment in | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
renewables by the energy companies is only 5% of their overall price. | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
So the idea that some how the price of green energy is causing these | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
huge price increases, I don't think it is fair, and thril I don't think | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
it is sustainable. But if we really want cheap energy, we would put up | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
a lot of gas power stations wouldn't we? We have to think about | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
our commitments to climate change. So that means more expensive energy, | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
obviously? It means we have to have a fair and transparent pricing | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
system, which we don't have. We have to invest in renewables, in | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
the last year we have gone from third to 13th place in investing in | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
renew nls. So we can use - renewables, so we can use less | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
energy. Like China and other countries, if we don't invest, as | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
George Osborne is suggesting, we won't be a world leader, and create | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
the jobs that need to be part of a new economy. You do think it is | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
fine to bankrupt Britain to save the world? No, I think it is | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
recognising new forms of providing energy. We can't rely forever more | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
on the existing forms of energy. It is about creating more investment | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
in our economy, more jobs, to get us actually on the right track back | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
to restoring our economy. So the honest politician would say, this | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
is going to be painful, for a good while to come? No, the honest | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
politician will say to you, there is something fundamentally wrong | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
with our energy market. The tarrifs are complicated and people can't | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
choose the right deal for them. There is misselling going on. The | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
transparency of data, so we can really be clear about the price | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
these energy companies are buying and selling energy for, is not | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
transparent. Also, we have six big energy companies, who basically | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
control 90% of the market, that needs to be opened up, that is what | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
Ed Miliband has within talking about. | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
- - been talking about. - - been talking about. | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
On the newspapers now. Some GPs are restricted services | :45:45. | :45:55. | |
:45:55. | :46:26. | ||
because of the behaviour of That's it for now, the news | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
machines fleet for homing pigeons of news has begun its journey here | :46:31. | :46:41. | |
:46:41. | :47:04. | ||
Hello there. A cold front is crossing the country. Guess what, | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
it is introducing much colder air. The front will clear the far south- | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
east early in the morning. We are in a run of chilly north-westerly | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
winds. It there will be sun shy, but it won't help temperatures much. | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
Showers rattling into the North West of England, some getting into | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
the Lincolnshire and Yorkshire air. Most of East Anglia and the south | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
having a bright afternoon. 12-13 is the best temperatures. One or two | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
showers racing across England, but few and far between. Mo of the | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
showers north across the UK. The north and west of Wales will catch | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
the sharpest showers. Over the my ground of Northern Ireland, the | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
showers will be wintry at times, temperatures 9-10. | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
Certainly, the number of wintry showers over the Highlands could be | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
a covering of snow. The more eastern parts of Scotland staying | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
dry. The showers continuing into the night, it will be a pretty cold | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
night nationwide. Many other north western parts of Europe will have a | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
chilly few days, with blustery showers. Berlin staying mostly dry. | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
Head for the south and east of Europe, down to the Mediterranean | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
if you want sunshine. It is fine and dry and warmer as well. Back | :48:16. | :48:18. |