Browse content similar to 28/10/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The richest continent on earth, Europe decides how to solve the | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
Europe decides how to solve the debt crisis. | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
And then hits China for a bailout. What will be the price of making | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
Beijing Europe's lender of last resort. The Europeans are so weak | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
that they have to beg China to ask for its contribution to the bailout | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
fund, which I think is a bit humiliating. Is this a turning | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
point in the rise of China, and perhaps the eclipse of Europe. Also | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
tonight, top directors' pay source by almost 50%, the Prime Minister | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
talk - soars by more than 50%, the Prime Minister talks about more | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
transparency. Is that because the Government doesn't know what to do. | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
Their first born would be first in line to the throne, boy or girl. If | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
it is good enough for a Queen, why not good enough for Dukes, Duchess | :00:58. | :01:08. | |
:01:08. | :01:11. | ||
and Lords and Laidies. We will hear from our gates. | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
Anyone travelling in China in the past few years struck by something | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
exorderry, the country managers to call itself a developing country | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
and merge - manages to call itself a developing country and a | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
superpower. The fate of Europe lies in the kapbdz of a communist | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
capital. What will it demand in return, and how much are we | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
witnessing a power shift in Europe towards Germany, while Europe risks | :01:40. | :01:49. | |
being eclipsed by Asia. As China's economy powers ahead, | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
old assumptions are being recast, and new relationships forged. Today | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
the head of Europe's stability fund was in Beijing, looking for 70 | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
billion euros. That may be a lot, but it is less than a 30th of the | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
foreign currency war chest that China has amassed through its trade | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
surplus. The foreign exchange reserves of China go up every month, | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
therefore there is a need for investment. And that is also my | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
experience talking to the Chinese authorities, that they are | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
interested in finding attractive, solid, safe investment | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
opportunities. Across the EU there is a hunger for | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
inward investment. This development on the whirr ral is being financed | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
in part by Chinese money. If this is welcome in these times of | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
recession, why should EU borrowing be any different. The Chinese are | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
very careful about their public image. What they get in return for | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
any assistance that they might give. Of course we don't know exactly | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
what is being discussed in Beijing, but we do know, on past record, | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
when the Chinese have made an investment, they will also raise | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
other issues, like, we don't like that our currency gets criticised. | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
We need market economy status recognition, they raise other | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
issues that has been bothering them for some time, and this quid pro | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
quo is very much in line with how they normally negotiate, I think, | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
as they think about helping Europe, these other issues are likely to | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
surface, so this is much broader than just the Chinese thinking, | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
could I get the best return for my money. The Chinese leadership | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
strings could mean ending an arms embargo, stopping criticisim of | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
their trade practices and gaining greater access to European | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
technology. For some Europeans that is too high a price. The most | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
important trading partner of China is Europe, but I regret, in way, | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
that the Europeans are so weak that they have to beg China to ask for | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
its contribution to the bailout fund. Which I think is a bit | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
humiliating. The perception of European weakness has already | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
caused flack for Nicolas Sarkozy, as he returned home from this | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
week's summit, he went on TV, insisting he had held his own with | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
Germany and was not going begging to China. TRANSLATION: If the | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
Chinese, who have 60% of the worldwide reserves decide to invest | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
in the euro rather than the dollar, why refuse. Afterall, there is | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
nothing to negotiate. Our independent will not be affected in | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
any way. Why shouldn't we accept that the Chinese have confidence in | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
the eurozone and deposit part of their excess funds in our funds or | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
banks. Inevitably, China's leaders see in Europe's current crisis, an | :04:46. | :04:53. | |
opportunity. They want to move from the shadow of history, when the EU | :04:53. | :05:01. | |
took a sort of very aspirational, idealistic attitude, used to some | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
time lecture and hector China about internal issues, it now says we are | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
equal, we are partners, we don't want that kind of relationship any | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
more. We have had enough of it. The conversation between China's | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
leadership and the western powers will continue at next week's G20 | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
Summit in France. This week's developments will put China in a | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
strong position. Europe's begging bowl approach to China provides the | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
leadership there with a great opportunity, to further their own | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
long-term goal of a more equal relationship, with the developed | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
economies of the west. Now that's part of a long historical trend, of | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
course, of power moving eastwards. But that won't stop opposition | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
forces in many European countries from blaming today's leaders for | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
going to Beijing in such a craven manner. | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
Have you seen really, that when the President of China went to the UK, | :06:00. | :06:09. | |
or to France, or to Italy, he was told something bad about the | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
Chinese attitudes, in relation to freedom of speech, have you seen | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
recently any leader in the EU saying that China has some change | :06:19. | :06:26. | |
to accept in its social policy, with regard to its own workers? No. | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
No it has already begun. For the moment, China's leaders haven't | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
agreed to help out. Like many others, they want to know more | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
about Europe's latest bailout man. But few believe they will re- | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
bailout plan. But few believe they will refuse, since Europe has made | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
a point for eloquently than China ever could. | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
I'm joined by Georg Boomgaarden, Ha-Joon Chang an economist who | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
specialises in China, Pippa Mlmgren, economics adviser to George Bush, | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
and Timothy Garton Ash, Professor of European Studies at Oxford. How | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
embarrassing is it for the richest continent on earth to go to chine | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
that to help solve these economic prob - China, to solve these | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
economic problems, why can't Europe or Germany solve it for themselves? | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
We have a global world economy, in a global world economy, it is very | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
positive and good if everyone in this global economy who can and | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
wants to acts as positively where crises happens. It is a good thing, | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
going to China saying, please, give us some money? It is not, please, | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
give us some money, it is an offer to invest money. It is an offer to | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
invest money, certainly into a region, which for China is also | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
very important. We are the biggest client. This is certainly something | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
very important. I think trade relations is not a game, it is | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
normally putting both sides on a better level. Timothy Garton Ash, | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
it is good for the world, it is good for China to be part of this? | :07:58. | :08:04. | |
I think the ambassador has put magnificent spin on it. Look, the | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
eurozone did, theoretically have another option, which is to say | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
they will do it ourselves, save it ourselves, make the European | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
Central Bank the lender of last resort, issue Euro-bonds, | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
guaranteed by Germany, and have Germany fiscal discipline, but the | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
fact is, across the eurozone, but the fact is, the German people | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
didn't want that, they wouldn't let Chancellor Mercury do that, nor did | :08:28. | :08:37. | |
the Greek or Italian people. That is - glp ska Chancellor Merkel do | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
that, nor did the Greek or Italian people, that is why we are going | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
with the begging bowl to China. It is a small milestone on the longer | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
term with the shift from west to east. If he's right, it is easier | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
for Angela Merkel to go to Beijing than the Bundestag, is that true? | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
It is not about going to the Bundestag or Beijing, it is about | :09:01. | :09:07. | |
how far Europeans are able to be united, and strong Europe in a | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
globalised world. We are on the way, this is not something which is | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
already finished. I know we discussed it earlier, when you want | :09:18. | :09:27. | |
to have a common policy on that, then you should never, never touch | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
the incompetence of the ECB, this is an - independence of the ECB, it | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
is an ECB decision, and if you don't do not do that you have an | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
inflationary machine, this is tax on the poor. How is this going to | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
be seen in China, what do you think they will l they want out of this | :09:44. | :09:51. | |
relationship? At one level, this is not a big deal, because China has | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
already bought quite a lot of European bonds. But it is a | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
watershed in a sense that it is being turned into some kind of | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
formal arrangement. I do not know exact whree what will change hands. | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
- exactly what will change hands, but China does take on the attitude | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
that they want a more equal relationship. Exactly what that | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
would involve, would it involve discussions about exchange rate | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
policy, or human rights, I don't know. There is one way of looking | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
at it, they have already propped up the American economy, thank you | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
very much, it has not changed what the Obama administration does or | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
doesn't do, why should we worry about it? Absolutely, that isn't | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
what is on the table here. What is on the table is an investment that | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
is effectively guaranteed. It is not buying the bonds, if it were | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
that simple they would just go out and buy them, they are available on | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
the open market. This is a totally different deal. I think it is | :10:51. | :11:00. | |
precisely Asim thee Ash says, it is - Asim thee Ash says, it is because | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
the Bundestag doesn't approve and they can't inflate the Governments | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
can't accept that, they have to reach to outside parties. Of course | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
the Chinese were not wanting this deal, now it is on the table they | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
are going to say we have some other requests, we would like to buy a | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
lot of hard assets in western Europe, infrastructure, agriculture, | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
all sorts of things, with a privileged price. It brings an | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
income with implications. Also I think foreign policy does get sold | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
in a Chinese direction. Meaning what, western medias will shut up | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
about Tibet? Correct, and a number of issues. That shifts the dialogue. | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
Does it permanently change it? No, but it shifts the dialogue. Do you | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
think it will have that effect, perhaps not a revolutionary effect, | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
but slowly the mood will change? have no doubt about that. That it | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
will be slowly, slowly chipping away, market economy status, the | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
issue of the arms embargo. Please don't invite the Dalai Lama, go a | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
bit softer on human rights. And let me add one very important thing, | :12:07. | :12:14. | |
which is there is one United States, but 27 states in the European Union. | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
40% of Chinese direct investment is in southern and Eastern Europe. | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
These are relatively weak, small economies. If it goes on like that, | :12:23. | :12:30. | |
and it is likely to in the crisis, you get almost like something of a | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
China lobby inside the European Union. One should not underestimate | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
the potential for the power shift. That is a big problem for the | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
European Union? I don't think at all, if you look at the decisions | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
of Brussels, this is a very small part. You are absolutely right, the | :12:44. | :12:52. | |
first element in it is the very big package giving leverage to the EFSF, | :12:52. | :12:59. | |
this is the real big shot. Some spoke of Baz zook ka, I don't like | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
- bazooka, I don't like the military comparisons. These are the | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
so-called special vehicles, they are a very small part of it. There | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
it is not between the Bundestag and China, it is between something else. | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
It is between responsible investor, who is asked, and we have excellent | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
experience with sovereign wealth funds, from the gulf states, China | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
and others, it is not looking for money in circles which get into | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
panic when just a pundit comes up and tells something panicky again. | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
They go to IRA liable lender. go to a reliable lender, trying to | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
get the Chinese perspective on this, am I right in thinking the average | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
employed worker in Beijing earns less than the average unemployed | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
person in the European Union. Et competitive question on the long- | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
term - the competitive question on the long-term is going in China's | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
direction? For one thing I'm not Chinese, I don't speak for the | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
country. But I'm not as optimistic as other people about China's | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
future. You know it has its own internal problems. There is a huge | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
realistic bubble, many of the projects they launched with the | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
2008 fiscal stimulus package are going sour, and there is a huge | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
inequality growing. At the moment the economy is moving at a very | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
high-speed, 9-10%, everyone is happy, when that stops, we don't | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
know if China can continue on that. Doesn't that bear out the | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
ambassador's big point, which is we are all in this together, like the | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
world, China has a part to play and we shouldn't be frightened of it? | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
Forget for a moment that it is China, every investor has to be | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
scared about putting more capital into Europe. Why should the Spanish, | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
Italians and Irish pay 100% of their debt, if the Greeks only pay | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
half. We just did a haircut on the Greek debt. The pressure on the | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
rest of the Europeans to implement a level of austerity that I don't | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
think human beings can bear. We are going to see a lot of pushback. The | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
politicians may say we agree to the austerity, the public won't agrow. | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
They will say why should we pay if those guys didn't. The risk to the | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
bondholders is immense. Forget their Chinese. Consider if it is so | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
risky that you have to beg an investor, this is telling you | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
something about the situation. is fair point, is it not? No it is | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
not. I really beg to disagree. It is not a fair point, because it is | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
very unfair to the different countries in Europe. Maybe over the | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
Atlantic Europe looks like one, it is not. And Greece is a real | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
special case and what is part of these decisions is isolating Greece | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
from the others, because this was a very long-term, you had an increase | :15:48. | :15:57. | |
in salaries, for example, 135% in the last 12 years, nobody had this, | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
in Spain you had real estate crisis and in Ireland, Portugal is still | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
developing, but all of them, Spain, Portugal, Greece and now also Italy, | :16:06. | :16:13. | |
they are all on the good pass. One final area, how will Germans | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
feel about this, we know the burden of history on everybody in Europe. | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
What we are seeing this week is Germany is not just the economic | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
motor but has to be the political motor of the EU, because nobody | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
else can do it. Does that change the mine set within Europe and | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
Germany in particular which you know - mind set within Europe and | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
Germany in particular which you know well? Germany is Europe's | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
central power, that is a reality for many years. At least since | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
unification again, and particularly when it comes to economics. We in | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
Britain or France can hardly object to the Germans pursuing their own | :16:49. | :16:56. | |
national interest. But I think that we do ourselves no service by | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
suggesting that it is all perfectly normal and actually it is just | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
normal globalisation and indeed that the problem is solved. The | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
eurozone has not been saved, we are not out of the woods yet, and | :17:10. | :17:17. | |
Germany itself will be the first and, in many ways the biggest, | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
victim of a failure of the eurozone. I think the crisis is still very | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
much in action. The Chinese aspect is just a small part of it. Very | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
briefly, ambassador, he is right, we're not out of the woods yet? | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
Chancellor has said it will take some time until the house is in | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
order, that is correct about Germany. I don't share your view | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
that this is still a very risky way, the point is to complete the | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
incomplete monetary union. This is a democratic process, this takes | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
longer than the market thinks. If democratic leaders have to decide | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
it takes more time. That requires a fiscal and political union which | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
the architects of monetary union thought should follow, but now the | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
Germans and others don't want. will save that for another night. | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
Thank you very much. Now, we are all in this together, | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
apparently, but some people are more in it than others. While the | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
talk in Britain is of austerity and inflation bringing real wage cuts | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
that seem to apply everywhere, that is, except the top boardrooms, | :18:21. | :18:29. | |
where directors are trousers much more than ever before. When salary, | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
benefits incentive and bonuses are added together, FTSE 100 directors | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
have seen their incomes jump by 49% in the last financial year. Chief | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
executives aren't far behind. Their awards increasing by 4%. | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
A study has found. The average salary for a top CEO stands at �3.8 | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
million. Compare all that, and you might just be tempted to do so with | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
the average pay rise across the whole economy, and there is quite a | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
contrast. It currently stands at a modest 2.5%. Eaten away by | :19:02. | :19:12. | |
:19:12. | :19:13. | ||
inflation, which is more than 5%. I'm joined by Luke Johnson a serial | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
entree pen your, and my other guest. You can see that people sitting at | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
home think it is unjust, everybody knows their wages are going back | :19:21. | :19:27. | |
wards in real terms, and directors getting paid more it seems wrong? | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
find it very difficult that as Brits he always have to look at the | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
negative side of things. Over the last two or three years every | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
pillar of our society has been challenged, whether it be | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
journalists, whether it be politicians, whether it be bankers, | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
and the one pillar that has remained very much intact it is | :19:50. | :19:57. | |
corporate UK, it has held us in good stead. It is quite inic when | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
listening to the previous conversation - ironic is listening | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
to the previous conversations is that taxes aren't high enough. | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
bankers have behaved badly and others have behaved badly, | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
directors have haid badly and are not showing why they deserve it? | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
you look at corporate tax receipts, excluding the banking sector, I | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
would say they are higher in October 2011 than envisaged at the | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
beginning of the year. We live in a global economy. I reckon Luke would | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
probably right now, 21% of FTSE chief executives don't have British | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
passports. The last thing I want, as an investor in these companies, | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
is to hear on Monday morning that the chief executive of one of our | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
investors who is foreign, like Burberry, or Marks & Spencers, has | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
decided to move to a culture that is less blame orientated. Is that | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
fair, people at the top end will go where the money is? I'm not sure I | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
agree. I think there is a bit of a myth that management talent is | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
incredibly rare, and therefore has to be extraordinarily well rewarded. | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
I think people are entitled to object, when they see bosses of | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
public companies, these are companies that individuals are not | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
founded, they are simply employees, executives, who have worked their | :21:22. | :21:30. | |
way up the hierarchy, and they are being paid 100-200-times what the | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
bottom ranking employees are paid. There is an argument to say that is | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
disproportionate. You know boards could do something about it and the | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
shareholders, if they felt strongly about it? I agree, it is | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
disappointing that pension funds and insurance investors, ultimately | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
owned by small, individual shareholders, with pensions, aren't | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
objecting more strongly. I accept that we have to compete on a world | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
stage, but for principally UK businesses, to be paying huge | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
increases such as these Stade tisics suggest have been, in a time | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
when ordinary hard-working people are getting zero increases, it will | :22:16. | :22:23. | |
clearly offend. Do you accept there is a problem? Do we get our money's | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
worth? I think it is popular policing, I think this house is in | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
order. And Luke knows the environment very well. The | :22:28. | :22:36. | |
institutions of London, who did get a bad rap over encouraging balance | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
sheets in banking, if somebody is not doing their job they will be | :22:40. | :22:47. | |
hard as nails. GlaxoSmithKline make �8 billion a year, their board is | :22:48. | :22:56. | |
paid a seventh of what Manchester City's squad will be paid. I don't | :22:56. | :23:05. | |
think comparing footballers is not a good comparison? Man City is 12 | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
people, Glaxo has been built up over decade, quite a lot of people | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
can do the job the board are doing. The trouble is you have inside, | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
institutional capture by corporate executives, you have the agency | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
problem whether it is too big a difference between investors and | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
managers. They are not entrepeneurs who are risking their homes, and | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
who are going to use their personal credit card to meet the monthly | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
payroll if the business isn't succeeding. Their downside is they | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
lose their job. Their upside is they get paid �10 million, up to | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
that, a year. Is that right? There is a toughening up on institutions | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
particularly with the criticism they got with the encouragement of | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
banking culture going from advice to sales, and Scottish institutions, | :23:54. | :24:01. | |
such as Standard Life, seen to be very supportive to what happened at | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS, came under a lot of criticism. That | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
had merit. This is slightly more varied, people will go where the | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
money is. Corporate UK, excluding the banking sector, is one of the | :24:13. | :24:22. | |
things we can waive our flag on. There are changes to the way the | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
monarchy works. Bringing changes to centuries of traditions. The | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
principle change concerns the first born. Future Monarchs will be able | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
to marry Roman Catholics, and the first born child can inherit the | :24:36. | :24:46. | |
throne, whether a boy or girl. When list Beth II was crowned in - | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
Elizabeth II was crowned, it was absence of a brother that secured | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
her the role. As early as the 1960s, we are told, civil servants thould | :24:57. | :25:04. | |
the rules inaxe crownistic. Whether or not it is the imminence | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
of a new royal heir, following this year's wedding, that has prompted | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
it, change t appears, really is happening. | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
Presided over by the Queen herself, the 16 Commonwealth nations at | :25:17. | :25:24. | |
their conference in Australia have agreed to ind the rule of male prim | :25:24. | :25:34. | |
:25:34. | :25:34. | ||
Mo beginure, meaning William and Kate's first born will take the | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
throne. One further anomoly, the ending of this rule won't | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
automatically apply to the aristocracy, some traditions remain | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
very much in the era of Downton Abbey. So, if this is some kind of | :25:47. | :25:54. | |
progressive move, why shouldn't it apply more widely to aristocratic | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
titles. I'm joined by my guests, Tony Benn renouncing his title in | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
1963, the first person to do so. On the male ascension, you think it is | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
a good idea, removing it and making it open to girls? I think it is | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
Monday sense, I don't think it was a bad idea in fuedal times, if the | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
head of the family had to be a male, he also had to have a lance or a | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
sword or a horse and ride. That was a sensible then. That is where it | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
all came from. The need for protection. Now a female can | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
protect the family with a computer et cetera, quite as well as anyone | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
else. And female Monarchs have not done too badly, as you have written | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
yourself in the past? Exactly. If people list the great Monarchs of | :26:43. | :26:50. | |
our country, let's face it, no-one would leave out Queen Elizabeth I, | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
it might well include Queen Vicoria. It is common sense. One should not | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
get into a state of thinking it should always have been so. Now it | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
should be so. Do you think it is a good move, | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
this is progressive, is it? Well, it removes discrimination against | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
women, which still exists, for example, Church of England won't | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
appoint women bishops, there was a struggle to get women the vote and | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
so on. If we are talking about the function of the head of state, and | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
if you take the function of a Monarch, whether a man or a woman, | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
they have enormous power, they appoint the bishops, the judges, | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
they can dissolve parliament and so on. And I give you one example | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
which occurred to me, in order to be a member of parliament you have | :27:37. | :27:44. | |
to swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen. And I thought about it, | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
and realised that I didn't owe my allegiance to the Queen, but to the | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
people who elected me, to the people who selected me as a | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
candidate and to my conscience. Therefore, in order to be an MP I | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
had to tell 17 lies under oath and that is the question, why, if you | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
are going to extend the right to women, why shouldn't you extend the | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
right to everybody, by having an elected head of state. That's | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
another point. But I wondered a slightly more limited change but | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
still a big one, would be to extend it to the aristocracy in general. | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
Am I right in thinking you would be the Earl of Longford, because your | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
younger brother inherited the title? Yes, my one of four brothers | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
inherited the title. He doesn't use it, as a matter of fact. Something | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
that Tony Benn will understand. I have to say that I spoke to him | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
this morning and said I was coming on the programme, and he said, oh | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
God, are you going to say you want to be countess of Longford. I said, | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
no, I'm not, because you don't use it, what I'm going to say, if I'm | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
anything, and don't let's be sexist, don't you agree, I should be Earl | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
of Longford. But as a matter of fact I don't want to be Earl of | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
Longford either. Politicians haven't bitten this particular | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
bullet, they are not going to extend it to the aristocracy. | :29:12. | :29:20. | |
don't believe to the hereditary titles, if I went to the dentist - | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
and he said he's not a real dentist but his father was I would move | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
dentists. I think democracy is the most important thing. When you | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
elect a member of parliament, you actually employ him. When I was an | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
MP, in my constituency, every one of my constituents was my employer. | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
And they could put me there, and get rid of me. So I was kept very | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
much disciplined by the knowledge that I represented them. That is | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
the basis on which I believe that society should be run. Isn't this a | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
good move, isn't this move to say that the first born child of Prince | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
William and Princess Catherine, should be the Monarch, this is a | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
good move, isn't it? I personally amin favour of an elected head of | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
state. I'm just discussing, isn't it a good move, a common sense move, | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
a modern move, are you not in favour of it? I'm not in favour of | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
discriminating against women at any purpose. But if you ask me whether | :30:22. | :30:31. | |
I think the head of state should be by-election or by inheritance, I'm | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
in favour of election. On that note of near agreement, thank you very | :30:36. | :30:42. |