Browse content similar to 11/11/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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From Arab Spring to European fall, in parts of the Middle East they | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
are making steps towards democracy, while this week in Europe, | :00:13. | :00:21. | |
technocrats are electing leaders. Does the right of Lucas Papademos | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
in -- rise of Lucas Papademos in Greece, show that European | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
democracy can't hand the british. Our diplomatic editors are there | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
with their take on the dramatic week in the eurozone. | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
Across the country millions fell silent to mark Armistice Day. Is | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
the poppy now a political symbol as much as a symbol of the fallen. We | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
will discuss if there is a better way to honour the dead. We will | :00:49. | :00:59. | |
:00:59. | :01:05. | ||
read experts of Siegfried Sasson's unearthed poem. Stars flung forth | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
to lead you in the light. Good evening, perhaps it is because | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
Europe appears to be lurching from one crisis to the next, when | :01:15. | :01:23. | |
something truly seismic happens we approach it with something | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
approaching souscience. Two democratically elected leaders were | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
flung out for failing and replaced with two unelected techno crafts. | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
While Egypt is busy embracing the world of democracy. It is a | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
topscyture vee world where democracy seems to be eroding, our | :01:43. | :01:53. | |
:01:53. | :01:59. | ||
diplomatic editor, Mark Urban reports. We saw the Arab Spring, | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
where people rose up to get rid of old men in favour of democracy. Now | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
we have the European autumn, which involves pushing aside democratic | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
leaders in favour of unelected old leaders in favour of unelected old | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
men? I think one parallel that seems to have emerged between parts | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
of the Middle East and Europe. We have had leaders not telling the | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
truth, trying to cosset their population in fake stories about | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
the Promised Land in the future. course, this is painting with very | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
broad brush strokes, just three out of a couple of dozen Arab | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
leaderships have been overthrown by revolutions so far. Just Greece has | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
appointed one of those grey unelected men as Prime Minister, | :02:43. | :02:51. | |
with Italy probably about to do so too, out of 26EU countries. But | :02:51. | :02:58. | |
there is a deeper point -- 27 EU countries. There is a point of | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
discontent sweepg across Europe, discontent with politics, sharpened | :03:03. | :03:12. | |
by the forces of global recession. As for either type of change | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
delivering, we are not sure. Egypt is still ruled by a military | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
Government, and plenty of people are frustrated by the slow pace of | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
reform. But elections will happen soon in Egypt, and have gone well | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
enough in Tunisia. So there Maysoon be democratic leaders, struggling | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
to match the 5-6% economic growth managed in the latter days of | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
President Mubarak. As for Europe, there are already | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
many happy to argue that the last thing Greece or Italy needs is an | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
election right now. Better to get austerity measures | :03:50. | :03:57. | |
through parliament, as happened in Italy today. The calculation seems | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
to be that unelected men like Lucas Papademos, swoorn in with his new | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
unity Government today, -- swoorn in with his new unity Government | :04:08. | :04:17. | |
today, can swoot bankers, if they - - sooth bankers. It maybe this | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
generates anger with the unelected arbiters of a nation's future. How | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
to retain support when the markets, social media or news channels all | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
seem to focus unhappiness or fear and amplify it. When it comes to | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
enhancing positive emotions or enabling change, those forces seem | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
to operate less effectively. So if a leader, as charasmatic as | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
President Obama, can get terrible approval ratings, and they have | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
been pretty bad recently, in this climate of recession, the question, | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
can any democratic leader hold on to his or her popularity in this | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
recession would seem to be, no they can. I think leaders will stand a | :05:05. | :05:12. | |
chance, right now I think people are not ideolgical about their | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
leaders. We have a potential socialist with a good chance of | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
winning an election in France. You have a right-wing Government with a | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
good chance in Spain. It is not right or left, it is give me | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
competence, give me a Government that can get us through this moment | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
of panic, then we will worry about the fuen tuning of whether you are | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
more in favour of -- fine tuning of whether you are more in favour of | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
spending or the market. In this European autumn, it is hard to | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
imagine an electorate surging into a more optimistic mood at any time. | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
The best we can hope for, politically, is the absence of | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
complaint. Mark Urban is here with Paul Mason. | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
Paul, the overall, the overarching idea here is that the economic | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
crisis brought a complete change to the nature of power, and who | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
actually exercise it is? It is not shocking to see this rather strange | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
sequence of crisis, bailout, imposed austerity package, and then | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
election to decide who implements it. We saw this in Ireland and | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
Portugal. There are elements of it in Italy and Greece. The shocking | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
thing was to see other Governments, avertly involved in the overthrow. | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
Specifically with Greece, but also with Italy, in the case of Angela | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
Merkel, who rang the Italian President, could ask could there be | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
a different Government. There is that, there is the underlying | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
economics of it are, that the economic orthodoxy of an entire | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
generation of politicians seems to be failing. They don't know what to | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
do. One looks them in the eye in Cannes and Brussels and all the | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
other various venues, you tend to see a slight absence of belief in | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
themselves. An absence of belief in themselves, mirrored with the idea | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
that somebody like Angela Merkel has to impose herself on Europe. | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
Yes, and it is interesting to see it from a UK perspective. Every | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
nation look at this there their own prism, the UK is be careful what | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
you look for. George Osborne and David Cameron have been urging on | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
the Central Bank, tighter fiscal union, more discipline, but this is | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
what it can look like. What we have seen this week, toppling of | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
Governments, putting unelected people in. To the Euro-sceptic part | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
of those same Conservative leaders is repugnant, and heightens this | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
disconnect between the measures needed to pay the -- pave the | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
economic position, and the legitimacy of the project. | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
legitimacy is what suffers, does national politics, national | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
Government sufrbgs or does the European project suffer -- suffer, | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
or does the European project suffer at the end of this? Mario Monti, | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
only made a senator two days a nod not even nominated yet, we believe | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
he will be the replacement for Berlusconi, he buys them time. | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
Italy isn't in a death spiral. They have had a premier who lacked, for | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
the markets, credibility, Greece, is in a social crisis. Greece a | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
month ago saw the communist party militia squad defending the | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
parliament against the anarchists, this is not the Europe that Olli | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
Rehn thinks he's running. That is the problem for them. They have | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
very little take on what to do about it. Even the technocrats, I | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
would argue. Also in the film there, your interviewee was talking about | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
the change again likely in future elections in France and in Spain. | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
And a different configuration? was saying people were being non- | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
ideolgical in Europe, listening to him, I was thinking, no, they are | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
just against the incumbent. Whoever that is. That is part of this huge | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
discontent with established political orders, that whoever you | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
are, you will get caned in the current crisis. We were talking | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
about the way that both Cameron and Osbourne had approached this, | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
obviously the Euro-sceptics here in the backbenches. But there was lsz | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
a move in Europe that is Britain- sceptic. You can clearly pick that | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
up whenever you have contact with European politicians. The Brits, we | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
are coming up to the autumn statement. The well laid plans, the | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
best laid plans to rebalance our economy, and to cut our deficit, I | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
think, as we speak, being redrawn. They have to be. We don't even know | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
how bad the, if we get the worst case scenario, an Italian debt | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
crisis, we don't know how bad the European credit crunch will be. It | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
could spoil everybody's plan. do you think this looks in Europe | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
from the Arab world? I can't say. We should really ask someone in | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
Cairo or Tripoli tonight. What is apparent when you are there, is | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
there is enormous enthusiasm, there is grass roots belief in democracy. | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
When you actually look at how it can be applied in those countries, | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
people are less sure. They have had 42 years of dictatorship in Libya, | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
they have had very, very oppressive systems. As the challenges come up | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
of trying to run these election, we have seen all sorts of curious | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
rules put in by the military in Egypt, trying to make it work and | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
then trying to deliver practical Government. It is possible that the | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
coalitions that overthrew those dictators can fracture under that | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
pressure. To discuss further where the | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
turmoil of this week might lead, I'm joined by the French-born | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
journalist, who covered the Arab Spring, by the Conservative MP Rory | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
Stuart, who returned from Libya, and the person who helped draw up | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
the Lisbon Treaty. Picking up straight away on the | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
whole question of how this looks, funnily enough, from the three | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
countries merging into democracies? This null liberated country, like | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
Egypt, Tunisia and Libya, they are way behind, necessarily, in their | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
expressions of democracy. In fact, they are still trying to establish | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
democracy. The Tunisia model, they have staged elections recently. I | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
think that gives us hope for the future of the region. But nothing | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
more than that. As we know, gunmen are not just the army, they are | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
still very much in charge of Egypt and Libya. And the Libyans are | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
aware that their own revolution succeeded through the immense fire | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
power of NATO, and it had nothing to do with that. Looking now, at | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
how this all looks, in Europe, it looks, funnily enough, of course, | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
that democracy, certainly the way it is being exercised in Italy and | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
Greece, simply isn't up to the task, or the financial crisis that Europe | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
finds itself in, or the global financial crisis? You are rather | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
assuming that the structures within the European Union, and | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
particularly in relation to the eurozone, were democratic in the | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
sense as we understand them. An ability to change the Government, | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
if you no longer like what the current Government does. The one | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
thing we should never underestimate is the ability of genuine | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
democracies to recover, and they have resilience. The deep malaise | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
which we are seeing at the moment, is that politically elite of 17 | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
countries, particularly led by two big ones, holding on to a model | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
that simply doesn't work. The people who have to pay the price | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
for that, those countries in the periphery, like Greece, Portugal | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
and Spain, that are liquid. fact is that politics isn't up to | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
the economics, if you want to put it that way in these countries. | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
Therefore, putting in a technocrat essentially is an erosion of | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
democracy? It is a righteous erosion of democracy. The answer is | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
to recognise that the 17 countries currently within the eurozone are | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
not economies that can function together. If the politicians were | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
really serious about resolving the problem, they would start by | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
drawing up plans that would allow some countries to restore | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
competitiveness, like Greece, and be allowed to leave the euro to do | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
that. On Europe, first, before we turn to look at the Arab Spring. | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
There is the possibility, obviously you can make an algs at the Arab | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
Spring and say there is the domino effect. You could say in Europe we | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
are not free of the domino effect in this crisis at all, are we? | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
course Italy is a much more serious threat in that way than Greece. But | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
I think we are still on the first phase of things. There is still a | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
very good chance at the moment that things can settle down and Europe | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
can muddle through. Despite the fact that European populations are | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
really angry. By and large, the parties in Europe, and the | :13:29. | :13:38. | |
Governments in Europe remain pro- European. The If it continues, if | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
Italy in crisis, something else may change, at the moment we are not | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
there yet. It is interesting, it looks as if politicians in way are | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
happy to sit back, and let the technocrats take the hit and sort | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
this out. Which presumably is not a good day for politics? My own view | :13:54. | :14:01. | |
is the realities of global economics do not sit happily with | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
democratic principles. It is time for technocrats to fix the economic | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
system, reassure the financial markets and to make sure the | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
continent competes with growing economic powers houses, like China | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
and India, for example. And on a purely practical level, I think it | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
is quite impossible to organise elections at this time. But the | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
point is, that what the electorate wants Governments to do, the | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
markets, the traders won't let them do. There is a huge disconnect here, | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
isn't it, it would seem the market, the people who call the shots on | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
the markets end up with the upperhand? I'm shocked to hear an | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
argument that says technocrats need to take over because we can't trust | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
the people. It is exact low in times like this you need to trust | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
in the recovery of democracies. Hold on, what got us into the | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
trouble, were the very technocrats, that didn't face up to economic | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
realities, who thought politicians could override markets. They caused | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
the problem, and now they are portraying themselves to be the | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
solution. I think this is great opportunity for politicians. | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
Because at the moment the public is divided. If you look at the Greek | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
population, they don't want to leave the eurozone, 80% of Greeks | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
want to stay in the eurozone. But 80% of Greeks don't want the reform | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
package. That is the classic area for politicians. A technocrat on | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
its own won't solve that problem. The technocrat is having to solve | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
the problems, because neither the Government in Italy or Greece were | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
sufficient to the task? In the end I don't believe that is sustainable. | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
Agree with the point there. Politicians need to explain to | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
people what's happening U need to sit down with the Greek people and | :15:47. | :15:57. | |
:15:57. | :15:58. | ||
say you can't have it both ways. You can't lurch from populisim to | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
technocratcy. Although the Papandreou's referendum was madness | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
it was understandable, you have to engage with the people. If you | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
don't engage with the people there is a huge A discontent. Then we | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
have -- a huge amount of discontent. We have had huge demonstrations in | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
Greece, not the same as Tarango Syntagma Sqare, but where can | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
discon-- Tahir Syntagma Sqare, but where can discontent lead. | :16:26. | :16:36. | |
:16:36. | :16:43. | ||
reality within the -- the messages put across by Twitter and Facebook | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
were far more important than the politicians' points. The hands of | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
the economy is very much in the hands of the money people, they are | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
far more influential than the politicians. You don't hold any | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
more influence? Politicians set the framework, democracy is the | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
framework within which the people express their collective will. | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
Politicians represent the people, and I really do think that we need | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
to trust those democracies. Just to come back y is Greece in the | :17:11. | :17:18. | |
trouble it is in. Because some politicians allowed Greece to come | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
in and join on the terms which were wrong and everybody knew. That that | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
is the root of the crisis, not democracy. I'm not saying we should | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
not trust people. Absolutely not. I'm saying at a particular time, | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
when we are faced with a crisis, it is unwise to go to the country. | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
This idea that President Sarkozy can sort the whole mess out over | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
dinner with Angela Merkel is absolutely ludicrous. | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
Where does it leave Britain? Britain needs to be very careful. | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
Wherever this is going, Britain's interests are the stability of our | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
economy and the stability of Europe. We need to try to help Europe to | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
settle down. We have to recognise that this isn't the moment to be | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
talking about Britain's in and out. It is about stablising the economy | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
and helping Europe to stablise. It is also, just to come back to this | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
conversation we are having, it can't be about bankers and | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
technocrats weighing in to Greece and Italy, telling the people. We | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
have seen the IMF do that all over the world, it is a disaster. A | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
backlash will follow, people won't put up with it. We have seen it in | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
2008, there was nominal anger at Gordon Brown's Government. But the | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
real outrage was really reserved at financial institutions and indeed | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
banks who had gambled away the fortunes. Thank you all very much. | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
Millions of people fell silent at 11.00am today, marking the moments | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
the guns stopped firing on the Western Front in 1918, many, many | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
more are wearing a poppy as a mark of respect for those who died then, | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
and in wars and conflicts since. But has the poppy become more than | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
a token of remembrance and respect. David Cameron insisted this week | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
the poppy transcends politics, it is not an issue of left nor right, | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
nor even if someone is in favour origins a particular war. Can that | :19:06. | :19:15. | |
be right? We will discuss that in a moment, first here's Steven Smith. | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
The poppy has been associated with combat and sacrifice since the | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
Great War. This week it seems to have been at the centre of a | :19:22. | :19:31. | |
political and cultural battlefield. On remembersance day, newly | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
restored footage of the Battle of the Somme, from the imperial war | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
new seem, and a previously undiscovered verse by the Great War | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
poet, Siegfried Sasson. "you in the winds ride out together. Your | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
company the world's great weather. The clouds your plume, the | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
glittering sky a host of swords in harmony with the whole lovelyness | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
of light, flung forth to lead you through the fight". Siegfried | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
Sasson found it very difficult to give us ideal of war, his ideal of | :20:06. | :20:14. | |
the glory of war, the shivery of fighting, link that goes back to | :20:14. | :20:24. | |
:20:24. | :20:26. | ||
legend, he found it very difficult indeed to do this. In Afghanistan | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
the Defence Secretary laid a wreath of poppies. | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
There, and all over the qu., a two minutes silence was -- UK, a two | :20:36. | :20:44. | |
minutes silence was observed. England's footballers will play | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
Spain at Wembley tomorrow, wearing poppies, after a diplomatic | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
incident, involving world's footballs leaders, as well as | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
Prince William and the Prime Minister. As the players, we do a | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
lot of work with the military boys. You will see a lot of them here, | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
and at every England game. If we were running out and not showing | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
our respects in way we would be letting them down. It has emerged | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
that the row was diffused thanks to a Tory MP, who is also a qualified | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
referee. He looked up the rules and found a loophole, permitting | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
symbols on armbands. It is not a political symbol. It is a sil | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
symbol of remembrance. It is also a symbol of respect for those serving | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
the country at this current time. Once you have spent a couple of | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
minutes explaining what the poppy means to your average Brit, | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
everybody gets it, they know it is not political. | :21:39. | :21:45. | |
Not far from the sen staff in Whitehall, 17 -- Cenotaph, in | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
Whitehall, 170 supporters of the right-wing English Defence League | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
were arrested, to prevent a breach of the peace. They were reportedly | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
planning to go to St Paul's, the site of an anti-capitalist camp. | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
Last year EDL supporters clashed with police on Remembrance Day, | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
after members of a banned extremist group set fire to poppies. For some, | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
who insist on the poppy, as well as for others who are more equivocal, | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
the emblems become political. is it not possible to just give | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
money to The Royal British Legion and not wear a poppy. Because they | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
have become de facto, compulsory, it seems absurd that we have to | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
wear them now. It has become compulsory. I think really, if I | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
just took this poppy off, that would become a political statement, | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
that would be absurd. I have more than one jacket. Do I have to buy a | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
poppy for every jacket, do I have to remember to bring it wherever I | :22:38. | :22:46. | |
It is reported tonight that there have been record sales of poppies. | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
Perhaps because of the controversy surrounding them. Or perhaps, in | :22:50. | :22:59. | |
spite of it. There will be another chance to | :22:59. | :23:09. | |
:23:09. | :23:10. | ||
hear a discussion of the newly discussed Sigfreid Sasson's poetry | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
tomorrow. I'm joined by my guests now. Do you | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
detect a change in atmosphere about the poppy? I think it is becoming | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
an almost compulsory thing. I think it is a great shame. It should be a | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
matter of choice. What it means is that, once a year, we give some | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
money to the British Legion, which does a tremendous amount of work | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
for servicemen who are injured and fall on hard times, we remember all | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
the people that we, the country, have sent off to get killed, in all | :23:37. | :23:44. | |
wars. We say, thanks, chaps, and chappesss, we haven't forgotten you. | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
That is what it means. It mustn't be a symbol to posture on. | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
totally agree on that, when you make it compulsory, it robs the | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
symbol of the power, the power is in the voluntary wearing of it and | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
making statement. The poppy has always been political. I'm wearing | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
a white poppy, going back to the 1920s and 1930s, women losing | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
fathers and sons, approached the red poppies and said will you make | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
a commitment to peace, President Clinton no more -- print no more | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
war on the poppies, we think that is how those who died would want to | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
be remembered. Surely it is a life lost in vain, if we don't make the | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
commitment. They said no. Clearly there are values. Even when David | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
Cameron made his statement saying the poppy is not a political symbol, | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
in the next breath he said it is about the pride of the nation state. | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
He made a political statement afterwards. Is it about the pride | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
of the nation state? Partly, there is nothing political about being | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
proud of what you are and what you have done. Do you think, actually, | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
because there is a change in the atmosphere about the poppy, it is | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
becoming almost compulsory, that people should actually have | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
different symbols for certain conflicts. People know about the | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
poppy at school, because it is really originally about the First | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
World War, and extends to the Second World War, do you think | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
there is a difference. Everybody gives their life in battle, we must | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
remember them, do you think there is other conflicts and other | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
remembrance for other conflicts? think the nice thing about the | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
poppy is it remembers all those who died. Actually now, the other | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
people who have died, not just the world wars. The British Legion says | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
it is only about the soldiers, it makes a valued judgment, it says | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
those who have laid down their lives for our freedom. Framed by | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
World War I, and every conflict subsequently has to fit into the | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
framing. Many people won't leave that soldiers in Afghanistan, | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
whilst respecting them, in Iraq, and Northern Ireland, have laid | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
down their lives for our freedom, and they are asked to make the | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
judgment by wearing the poppy. Most people don't, but that is what the | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
legion says. It doesn't ma if you agree with the war or not, but you | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
the country have sent them off to die. And therefore, you should | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
remember them. Whether you approve of the war or not is irrelevant. Do | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
you approve of the man who has gone out and died, possibly for a cause | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
he didn't agree w but nevertheless it is we who have sent them out to | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
die. Would you wear a white poppy? I probably wouldn't, I don't have | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
any objection to a white poppy. I think it is a bit like wearing a | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
little ball of leather in the hope that England will win the World Cup | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
rugby, but knowing they won't. In the real world we will always have | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
conflict. That is interesting aspect about both the pass visit | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
tradition and the just war tradition, both see war as evil, in | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
the just war you say it is a lesser evil than the alternative. There is | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
broader issue about who you remember about the poppy, the red | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
poppy son-in-law about Armed Forces and our Armed Forces, it is not | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
about civilians and people who have killed. Harry Patch, just before he | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
died, went to lay a wreath on German graves. He said remembrance | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
must be about his quote, "people on both sides of the line". Absolutely, | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
I think we would all do that. I was in Normandy, I laid a wreath and | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
said it was not just for our soldiers but the German dead. | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
has been politicised by the EDL, last year and this year. It is very | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
hard, isn't it, once they have a grasp of that, how do you move | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
away? Ignore them, they are lunatics and dangerous, just as | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
dangerous as the people who want to ban poppies. Ignore them. If you | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
make them important they become important. Has it become jingositic | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
where it was never meant to be? have no problem with jingoism, if | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
somebody wants to make it that, that doesn't mean it is right, you | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
ignore them. It has become associated, from the Prime | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
Minister's mouth, nationalism, you can say it is good or bad, but it | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
has. You can see in Northern Ireland the association with | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
Protestant loyalism. For Catholics in Northern Ireland it is a | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
difficult symbol to embrace. I don't think we understand in the | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
controversy around FIFA that it doesn't have the international | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
recognition. In some places it isn't recognised and other places a | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
negative symbol. I asked if it is time for a different symbol to | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
remember different conflicts. We are going into a new century, it | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
will be 100 years in 2017, a Sunday in 2017, Armistice. Do you think it | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
will be a time to move on and create a new symbol for conflict? | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
would like to see, 100 flowers flourish and let many symbols come | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
forward. When I suggested this a few years ago that churches should | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
make white poppies available alongside red poppies, it was | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
treated with quite a lot of controversy, let's say, in the | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
press and media. But I think we do need to have more inclusive | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
remembrance, we have migrant communities might be uncomfortable, | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
they might have relatives killed by British forces. We have people | :29:02. | :29:09. | |
producing purple poppies there are war memorials to animals and | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
conscientious objectors who have only got recognition. And also | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
about the language, one more point, we need to recognise that people | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
did die in vain, that death isn't glorious, moderating the language. | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
They didn't die in vain, they died because we sent them off to die, we | :29:24. | :29:28. |