15/11/2011 Newsnight

You finished your education, now you plan to start a career and then

later, perhaps, buy a home or raise a family. Well, forget it. There

are no jobs, or there aren't anything like enough of them. No

job, no income, no hope. When so- called working hours are just a

hole to be filled what does it do to you? It makes you feel angry,

when you wake up you have nothing to look forward to, it is the same

day, what can I do today? We have brought together 30 young people,

either unemployed or underemployed, with Chris Grayling, the employment

minister and David Miliband now leading a charity initiative. Could

he convince the world that it was he who was telling the truth rather

than his old boss. The former UK borders chief gets his day in front

of parliament. Over 40 years I have built up a reputation, and over two

days that reputation has been destroyed, and I believe that has

been largely from the contributions made by the Home Secretary.

Meet the Government of another EU country that's rejected the euro,

yet the Prime Minister of Denmark tells us, actually, she thinks it

is rather a good scheme. I'm always in favour of the euro, stim I am.

Still in favour of it. It has been a disaster? I don't think the euro

has been a disaster. Brace yourself, it is confidently

expected that tomorrow we will hear that unemployment has gone up again.

Being unable to get a job is bad enough, at any age, but it is

perhaps especially hard on the young.

Tomorrow's figures are expected to show that over a million of us

between the ages of 16 and 24, have no paid work. The talk is of a lost

generation. We asked Jim Reed from Radio 1's Newsbeat to report for us.

If you are lucky enough to get an interview, there is too many people

far more qualified get anything there. For the last four years I

have travelled up and down the country. Trying to find out what

matters to the next generation. have only got experience in

construction, and they won't give me a retail job, they won't give me

a chance. A job, a role, something to do. Those questions have always

been there. I have lost count of the number of jobs I have applied

for. Something has changed, now for many young people it is all they

want to talk about. It is better to actually go into the shop you want

and get application form, instead of going to the Jobcentre where you

think you would get the help, because you don't.

Phil Shaw is young, frustrated and out of work. Spends his time at the

local gym, in the Manchester suburb of Wytheshawe, there is nothing

else to do. Getting up and doing the same thing. I want to be

getting up, getting ready to go to work. Because I do want to work.

All I need is that one chance to prove to people that I can do it.

heard you talking earlier you are really fed up, aren't you.

We have brought Phil and his friends to meet Emma Harrisson, the

chairman of the training company, A4E, and now a influential adviser

to David Cameron. I believe the problem has become so entrenched at

a certain level in certain groups of young people, because their

parents run employed, the young people are unemployed, actually the

only way now is one-on-one support. Is somebody going to say I will

work that with that family and young people, and do whatever it

takes tworbg with them to get them back into work. We have to start

doing it earlier I think, at the moment, a young person waiting 12

months before they get some support is too long, by then the anger, the

frustration, the self-esteem has gone, the confidence has gone, and

they are going round and round in circles, we have to get in there

quickly and sort this thing out. Really, how bad is it, for young

people today. We have gazed into the statistics, to try to dispel

some myths. Number one, there are almost a million young people

unemployed. There are 991,000 16- 24-year-olds out of work. Take out

full-time students looking for a job, that figure drops to 721,000.

Myth number two, this was all caused by the financial crisis, and

our response to it. It is true, that 2008 saw a sharp spike in

youth unemployment. But, take a look back to 2004, and you will see

it started rising long before that. The final myth, record youth

unemployment, now that's true, but this set of records only began in

1992. Look back to 1984, and although the figures were

calculated slightly differently, the number out of work hit 1.2

million. There is one more revealing fact,

for young people I have met in Salford and around the country,

this isn't just about unemployment. The number taking part-time work,

because they can't find a full-time position, has now risen to 337,000.

Almost double what it was just three years ago.

That rising figure, 337,000, doesn't show up in the official

unemployment statistics, but it is more than a third of a million

young people who want or need more work.

At this supermarket, on the outskirts of Salford, the manager

says he has stopped advertising positions, he's already sitting on

a pile of 20 or so CVs. Sally Burke started working here part-time

three years ago, to pay her way through a media studies course at

university. That course has come to an end, she graduated with a 2: 1

degree, but she's still here. definitely want to be working full-

time instead of part-time. But. not get the full-time job, why is

it so difficult? It is not out there. It is not out there to get.

I have been looking for a full-time job, in what I want to do,

literally there is nothing out there. Unemployment is really bad.

People I have graduated with, some of them didn't work part-time, some

did, they are looking for full-time jobs and they can't find full-time

jobs. There is one of about, 100 on my course, that have a full-time

job in what they want to do. That is not very good statistics at all.

Like many of the 9 others on her course, she's still in debt.

�18,000. And not sure why she took that course in the first place.

Here, on the other side of Salford is a project to refurbish rundown

council houses. Building firms are being forced to recruit apprentices

from this area, if they want to win the local Government contract.

applied for over 50 actual jobs, and then I also sent off around 100,

150 speculative letters, and I got nothing back. Absolutely nothing.

How did that make you feel? It's just, honestly, you can't even

describe the knockbacks, waiting for the post, and checking your e-

mails every ten minutes and checking your phone to see if

anybody has contacted you. How did it feel when you got the letter and

got the yes to the job? It was amazing. The motivation, I have got

something to get up for in the morning.

These trainees, though, say they are the lucky ones. On this project

there are only 28 places, and they are all full. Work on the site

started six weeks ago. And since then, there has been a steady

stream of young people, who have seen what's happening here and are

trying to get involved. Not a week has gone by when someone hasn't

tapped on the foreman's window, asking for work. Let's discuss

first of all what unemployment does to you. Someone who hasn't got a

job. What does unemployment do to you? You don't know what to do. You

come out, you try to look for a job, you have no job, you are just

sitting at home, Monday to Friday, doing nothing. It gets to a point

thaw don't know what to do, you don't have a routine, you don't

know what day is what day. Does it make you think differently about

yourself? Definitely, you think there is something wrong with you,

something must be wrong with you can't get a job, you are trying,

you are putting yourself out there, you can't get anything. You think

why bother, you might as well stay at home and sleep. What am I doing

with my life, period. Anyone else want to add to that?

name is Katie, I'm an unemployed graduate. It is absolutely true, it

makes people judge you as well, because you are made to feel that

eventhough there aren't enough jobs for everyone, there isn't even

enough jobs for the young unemployed to find work, people

make you feel, the media in particular, make you feel it is

your fault, you are to blame. is your day like, most of us, get

up, go to work or education, if you are not doing that, someone tell me

what your day is like? All your day is like, you just are laid in bed,

and you don't really want to get up. Because you have nothing to get up

for. Nothing at all. All you are wanting to do is get up late, get

up later in the afternoon, and then half your day is gone. The business

of searching for a job, other job - - are the job centres working?

is useless going to the Jobcentre, they do nothing for you. You go in,

you look for jobs, and they give you no help whatsoever. I have been

to the Jobcentre, and I have been to look for a job, I have been on

recruitment agencies, when you go into a Jobcentre, as a graduate,

the jobs I get on there are not the jobs that I want to aim for. They

are jobs that pay maybe minimum wage, some are inteornships, not in

the relevant areas -- inteornships, not in the relevant areas. What

about the atmosphere inside job centres, has anyone much experience

of that? When I go into the Jobcentre I feel like it is a

conveyor-belt. They just go in every two weeks. You tell them what

you have been doing, and right, fine, next person come in. You

don't get someone talking to you, helping you, trying to get into a

job, it is just, next. It is a conveyor-belt. Anyone else? You are

just a statistic, you go to the next person, you sign off, here is

your money, next person, please. They try to get you off the system,

off benefits and off jobseekers', and into any work, they don't Kay.

What does it make you feel about yourself? You are disposal, the

next person to come in. You don't feel like a purpose in life. It is

a neverending cycle of despair. Somebody in that film mentioned the

business of sending off application forms, and into the even getting an

acknowledgement. Not getting any kind of reply. What's that like?

have sent off, I'm a recent graduate. I got a good degree from

a good university, I sent off maybe 120 different applications, I have

heard back from about 10-15% of those, it is always generic replies,

saying we can't give you any feedback because we have had over

400 applicants for one job. Anyone else got this experience of not

getting a response? I have sent out many CVs and e-mails to many

different places, no replies, the frustrating thing is it doesn't

only matter thra they don't reply to you, if they do reply to you,

they can't really point out exactly why they don't want you. You don't

know what to work to improve. Therefore, you are just stuck in

that same position, over and over again.

You hear these people saying how will I pay my way in the world and

get a job, what is the single most important piece of advice to give

to them? Until the economy is growing it lr difficult to the

young people to get a job. That is pretty cold? We have to be honest

with the young people. This problem didn't start in may 2010, it is

longer dated, however, it has got much worse in the last year,

because the economy isn't growing. One other point, I think is really

important, there is a syndrome that affects many young people who come

to see me in my constituency, in my constituency, Jeremy, the number of

young unemployed has more than doubled in just this year. What

they say is, if you haven't got a job you can't get experience, and

if you can't get experience you can't get a job. That is a vicious

circle that turns into long-term youth unemployment, which backs

long-term adult unemployment. That is the danger. It is the wrong

moment and occasion for us to get into a political debate.

Let focus on the point about the point of not having experience and

getting a job. One of the things we have done, most important of all. I

think you are all dealing with one big challenge in particular, which

is employers are reluctant to take on somebody fresh from school,

college or university without experience. That shows through

quite extensively in all the conversations I have with young

people struggling in the labour market. You have to persuade these

companies to do it? We have put together a work experience scheme,

which we lanched in the spring. Which so far is proving remarkably

successful for getting half the young people through it back to

work. I want to make sure everyone does that. It is something

Jobcentre Plus should be doing for you, if not you should ask for that

opportunity. I have done two years with the Prince's Trust and got a -

- an apprenticeship. They offer less than minimum wage, for people

who don't live at home they couldn't support themselves on that

wage. What could the Government do to support them on that. A very

particular point. You had your hand up? I just want to say, it has been

said that a long of young people go to the cycle if they can't get

experience they can't get a jobs, I volunteer at a youth organisation

because I couldn't get experience and the Jobcentre didn't hire me,

there is a promise at the end of the volunteering role that a job

will come about. I am getting experience in youth work, because I

want to be a juvenile justice social worker, however, there is

not really jobs in that youth service, so you are looking for

generic jobs like Marks & Spencers, they don't want to hire you vu,

introduced any schemes to get expeer -- experience for those

people. I accept the job market is difficult for people. You are doing

the right thing by getting experience through volunteering and

work experience. The most important thing is to do something that adds

to your salability to an employer. What you are doing is absolutely

right. You may well find, taking one of the big supermarkets, the

local branch of the big supermarkets in my constituency has

someone employed as the community outreach worker. It may come as you

work for one of the big supermarkets and go into a role

like that, it might lead to a youth worker role in a local authority.

Always look for the potential of a job to lead somewhere, don't look

at it as being an deadend. What is different from when any of us were

looking for a job. When we were looking not only was there more

industry in this country, there were fewer people coming from

Eastern Europe and elsewhere in the world, willing to work hard for low

wages. That is a huge change? of the challenges for a young

person looking for a job and looking for someone with experience,

we have discovered if we can get young people in the work place for

a period of time and build a relationship with an employer, more

often than not they stay with the employer or get into employment

soon afterwards. It is quite often an employer will take someone with

more experience, from another country, offering the been there

and done it before. We have to get more of you into the work place to

show what you can do, and those turn into jobs or apprenticeships.

The job market has changed since you or I went into work, more

people are in work in Britain today than when we graduated from

university. I do think there is something else, we are in

extraordinarily difficult economic times in Britain and Europe, that

means that the normal measures you take aren't just going to work. The

programme of giving people job interviews and trying to give them

preparation, works in times of economic growth, when you have got

economic stagnation, I think, if you want to prevent long-term

unemployment, you do need to say to young people f you have been

unemployed for six or nine months we will guarantee you a job, to

break that cycle of no job-no experience. What sort of a job,

where will you find these jobs? have experience from 200-2010 of a

programme that guaranteed young people employment. Youth

unemployment has been rising since 2004? Long-term unemployment, there

are 70,000 young people long-term unemployed more than six months.

That is the problem for the society as a whole. When you asked what

does it feel like for you. We know if you are long-term unemployed as

a youngster you are much more likely to be long-term unemployed

as an adult. That is bad for the people here the economy. You have

had your hand up in the middle for ages. I would just like to point

out, I think David was going on about youth unemployment. I think

that's at the highest at the moment, I think that is also due to part of

the demonisation of young people in the media. There is a lot of

courses that the Jobcentre are doing at the moment, there is one

particular one called Work Trials, you go into a job unpaid for 30

days. Hopefully they may take you on after it. But that is never the

case, because they can't pay you, they can't pay you to do that job.

People are just going in after 30 days. Experience may be that, that

is not the experience across the board for schemes like that. We are

seeing more than half the young people going into placement with

employers, getting into work with that employer or within a month of

leaving that period of trial work. It does make a difference.

In the front row over here? Chris Grayling, you said that you

think there needs to be much greater responsibility on the

individual to find work, and not just the employer, if so, what are

you doing to help young people with this ability to help them get jobs?

What we have done for young people with disabilities, in particular

you need a much more specialised and personalised support to get

into work. That also applies to the long-term unemployed. The work

programme we have launched, which started in June, offers to young

people, either after three months or nine months, and to people with

disabilities, straight away, personalised, specialised support

from expert recruitment firms, only paid when they are successful in

getting you into work. Early days we are seeing good numbers in young

people getting into work. That specialist support is there for you

now. Have you had specialist support as a disabled person?

Sorry? Have you had specialist support? Support from the Jobcentre

because you are disabled? Yeah, from my DA at the Jobcentre. Let's

talk a little bit about education. We have heard already from several

graduates here, desappointed that they are clearly haven't been able

to find jobs that seem to be suited to the education that they have had.

Let's hear from a couple more students or graduates about the

experience of trying to find a job. I'm a third-year geography student,

I have found student means testing doesn't give me a loan that covers

my rent. For the entire of my degree I have had to fund my rent

by finding part-time employment, and that came to a head this year

when the only employment I could find would be working in a

nightclub, I would be working 13- hour shifts from 5.00pm to 7.00pm,

I couldn't do my degree with shifts like that. Do you regret starting

the degree? I almost do, thinking what could I have done with the

time, I have to think is part-time employment or good grades, I can't

do the two things. Anyone else want to talk about university education

and what it leads to or not? I'm a graduate. People seem really

shocked when you have the audacity to believe that you should want

fulfiling work, that you should just be able to take anything, when,

frankly, we do deserve what we want. If the system. Why? Why do you

think you deserve it? Previous generations have had it, we need

fulfiling, economically and eek logically viable work. If the

economic system can't afford that, quite frankly we can't afford the

economic system and we need to change it. Your argument is you are

being offered the wrong kind of job? My argument is there is not

enough jobs out there, the industry has been sold off. Any jobs? A lot

of our industry has been sold off in the 1980s. I's talking a lot of

good sense. -- He's talking a lot of good sense. Our economy is

smaller than it used to be, the people here are facing the prospect

that our economy is not back there. That is an important part of

explaining. I don't think we want to get into a political debate, but

it is also the case that there are 250,000 more people in work today

than there were at the time of the general election. But I don't want

us to have a political debate about this, we need to deliver practical

solutions. Yes, of course. Can I go back to the point raised earlier,

about the challenge of simply pumping out the CVs, because I

think it is one of the biggest challenges and it affects job

seekers of all ages. If you look at it from the other side, a small or

medium-sized firm, you get 200 CVs, your ability to provide

personalised responses to those you don't want to interview is tough,

you can't do it and run your business. One of the things I hope

to do during the work programme, designed for those really

struggling to get into work, to provide personalised and really

individualised help to find the right job, is that we will be able

to short change that link, and what we will be able to do is match

individuals to a job opportunity to a much greater degree. I describe

it as a giant employment dating service, it is about professional

organisations identifying vacancies and matching them. You can only

have a dating agency with two willing partners? Each week, still

now, Jobcentre Plus alone is receiving 90,000 vacancies, that is

five million vacancies a year. are there nearly a million

unemployed young people? We have to make sure young people struggling

to get into the job market get into those jobs. Why don't you just

admit, there is a shortage of jobs, due to the economic circumstances

we are in, and we will not be able to meet them all they demand?

can look at it and say there is no solution, I look at it differently.

There are a large number of vacancies in the economy at any one

time, I want to help those struggling to get into the labour

market to do so. With specialised support through the work programme,

work experience scheme through Jobcentre Plus, and do everything

we can to get you into the vacancies that are there. Three

there may not be vacancies we would wish, but for every young person

there is an opportunity to get a job. I have a masters degrees,

there are 2.5 job seekers in Britain today seeking one million

jobs. It shows the main political parties in Britain see youth

unemployment as a price worth playing, you shouldn't say it is

the cloim mate. You should get people building houses for the

council house waiting lists. Let's look at where the jobs will come

from? The policies Chris is coming out with, the work academy scheme,

when the last unemployment figures were announced. Unpaid work

experience, working for your dole, for 50,000 of the one million

people out of work. It is not creating any more jobs, it is

readvertising jobs already advertised.

David Miliband where are the new jobs coming from? The industries in

which Britain is strong, everything from pharmaceuticals to business

services, even the much derided financial services, these are the

areas where the growing middle- classes in Asia, India and China

will need to be serviced from. If we are ready to skill ourselves up,

and develop our economy, grow our economy, the young people here can

fill them. I would just like to say one thing to Chris, he doesn't have

to believe me, but listen to himself. At the beginning you say

you understand these people can't break into the job market and at

the moment they need help. You can't say just rely on the economic

cycle to pick them up. There is a real issue of young people at the

bottom of the pile, when the employers you talk about receive

their CVs, we need to help them in their country and the country's

industries get up the pile, women dopbl that if we break the cycle --

we can only do that if we break the cycle and give them a job.

You have had your hand up for a while? I think it should be the

responsibility of the Government of the day to ensure that there is a

job, or at least a training programme for graduates to go into.

Least of all the coalition have now increased the tuition fees, so much,

they should be accountable and very responsible for making sure that

graduates aren't going to come out. Maybe you should choose a degree

that will get awe job? It is ten times harder not to have a degree.

Those here with a degree saying it is tough, it is ten times harder if

you haven't a degree. Complaining about the degree they have chosen

isn't the issue. I think that is an insult. Maybe people should have

lower expectations, do you think that is a solution? No, because

when you or I went to university, there were 12% of the population,

in Korea it is 80%, in the UK it is 60%. The idea that for Britain

there is a future in less education, that is a recipe for absolute

disaster. I would argue that what we need in terms of skills, and

what we have done is increase significantly the number of

apprenticeships, aimed particularly at young people not graduates. We

have a challenge with graduates, I want to help them get into careers

that meet the aspirations and thecation they have had. I also

want young people at the school age having skills to last a lifetime.

With apprenticeships, it was great to see the young lady in the film

moving into the apprenticeship, that is one path to build skills

that last a lifetime. I'm glad the coalition Government are

emphasising the importance of apprenticeships. I hope Chris

agrees, a lot of apprenticeships are at level two. We have to make

sure if we want them in the jobs of the future, they are at the

equivalent of A-level standard. Unless we are willing to invest in

that level of skill we will get out competing. We are doing that, and

level 3 apprenticeships. Right, I would just like to look forward. We

have raised this question of where the future jobs are going to come

from. And you are all in a difficult place right now with the

sirbgs as they are. Any of you feel -- the situation as they are now.

Any of you feel optimistic that this can't last this bleak future?

I think the situation will get better, and people will find jobs,

I think young people should keep their hopes up, keep applying.

There is no point lying in bed until 12.00, that won't really help

you. It does, the future does look bleak for us, but with the help of

you guy, instead of arguing on stage and having a go at each other,

maybe you should work together and maybe go forward and do something

about it. Because, for us, buying a home doesn't seem possible at the

moment. I think the key is to obtain experience alongside your

education, so you have a competitive age. A lot of

internships are unpaid, it exclude people who can't afford to. You do

feel you will find a job eventually? There is a lot of jobs

around there, a lot of people are excluded who aren't able to take on

unpaid work. Ifrpblgt I came into unemployment -- I came into

employment through college myself. I wanted to do a song writing

course, it just was brought into the college, I enrolled in the

college, I had done one year at college, the day I went to start my

college course it got cancelled. And I never found out about it

until the day I actually went into college, one of the teachers said

to me, why are you here, the course has been cancelled. And then I said

what are you going to do about it, they turned around and said, you

can do nails, beauty, hairdressing, I said what's that got to do with

writing songs, I want to sing, what has that got to do with anything.

They may lead to jobs. When you guys look at the future do you have

reason to feel positive, other than getting out of the economic crisis

we are in, and then the economy will grow. From the experience of

my constituency, when I meet some of those 385 young people

registered as claiming unemployment, I think they have a huge amount to

contribute to the country. No-one is denying they have a contribution

to make? I don't believe it is despair, the truth s we have a

better educated young population, the competition is there. They are

still unemployed? There are things you can do about it, we have talked

about some tonight. I don't believe we should offer false hope. The

idea we are doomed to economic decline seems to me to be

completely wrong. What advice would you give, then,

to somebody in their early 20s, graduate or entering straight into

the work force, who is applying, continuously, actively job

searching, and just not getting anywhere. Someone who is slowly

giving up hope. What advice can you give, what can you tell them their

future will be like? What I say to the young people in my own

constituency is to get some experience, unless they get the

experience they won't make the breakthrough. Part of the reason

I'm doing this unemployment commission for the charity that you

explained at the beginning, is I think there is room for politicians

not to pass the buck, but actual loi to say we will build on the --

actually say we will build on the ideas whether they come from the

right or left to bring the country forward. I think we should have a

constructive discussion about building on ideas like

apprenticeships and my ideas. Many of the young people I spoke to say

getting to the job or the job interview is a real issue. We have

to find common ground in taking it forward. If you wrote down the six

or seven things that would make a difference you could really help

people. I think that's absolutely right. So the lady I will say, we

will look together, I will listen carefully and talk to David about

his commission's findings. My main advice is don't give up. For the

young people going on to job seekers' allowance, two-thirds move

quickly within three months. I would say if you can't find the job

you want on day one, think laterally, find a way that gives

you a path to where you want to go, a couple of jobs down the road,

don't think because I have not found a job in the area I did a

degree course in, for example, I can't get there if I go via a

different route. Take a job, it is better to get into employment, and

we will give you all the help we can, and work your way from where

you are from being in a job rather than being out of a job. The who

said what to whom and by the way anybody got any idea how many

terrorist criminals and the rest wandered into Britain as a result,

the row is no nearer settlement. Brodie Clark, the man who resigned

as head of the Border Force, claimed today that the reputation

built over 40 years was trashed in two days by the Home Secretary. Yet

he admitted that on 50 occasions this summer alone, procedures

designed to keep Britain safe had been suspended. We report.

Two men charged with protecting your borders, one Secretary of

State, three conflicting accounts, a suspension, an investigation, a

suspension pay-off that never -- a pension pay-off that never was, it

is Whitehall intrigue. The man at the heart of the row is Brodie

Clark, until recently, head of the UK Border Force. Over 40 years I

built up a reputation, and over two days that reputation has been

destroyed. And I believe that has been largely from the contributions

made by the Home Secretary. The UK Border Force has been pressing for

an intelligence-led approach. Passengers perceived to be high-

risk would be given for detailed checks, freeing up staff to be used

elsewhere. The Home Secretary agreed a pilot scheme this spring,

some relaxation were allowed, for example, children of EU nationals

would not be fully checked. At the heart of the dispute is whether

certain border controls for foreign nationals were relaxed. When

foreign nationals apply for visas abroad, their finger prints are

taken, and they are checked biomettically when they come into

the country. We are told the Home Secretary wanted to keep these

controls in place, and she told Clark this. In may, June and July

this year, finger print matching was suspended at Heathrow 50 times.

The Home Office do have the exact data but this is thousands of times

across the period of time that this pilot was running, from the middle

of July until a week after the story broke. The Home Secretary,

here at heath throw, relied on Brodie Clark to implement policy.

Mr Clarke said today that abandoning finger print checks this

year did not go beyond her wishes, because suspending some higher

level checks has always been part of the policy at times when queues

become so big they threaten health and safety at ports. It was not

part of the pilot, it has been in place through the Home Office

warnings index policy since June of 2007. So it is a piece of standard

practice for the operation, in particular times, where health and

safety begins to present a threat to people who are coming through

the border. Did you raise this with ministers when you were discussing

the pilot, or at any other time after that? I don't recognise

collect that I did. But -- Recollect that I did. But form

irofficers I spoke today to said the relaxation don't match up? How

many times do health and safety mean a relaxing of the checks?

can think of a maximum of three occasions since it was introduced

in 2007. Just three occasions, when, of course, there were thousands of

occasions when the reduced checks were highlights. That's right.

is highly unlikely this was due to health and safety? It would be

difficult to see how that would bear up to investigation. I was not

aware that the extension of the relaxation of checks had taken

place, I was not aware, as I have set out in my initial statement, a

number of relaxations were put in place, by officials. Brodie Clark,

as I understand it, has admitted to the chief executive of UK BA, that

he did go beyond ministerial authority, I was not aware this had

been done. Brodie Clark's boss at the UK Border Agency agreed.

Ministerial instruction, to use secure ID, was not being applied. I

think I was right to suspend Mr Clark in order that those matters

would be investigated. Brodie Clark is bringing a case of unfair

dismissal. Some might say his treatment appears brutal. He was

publicly named and shamed. And a first offer to give him the chance

to retire early with the financial package was quickly withdrawn.

My very clear recollection of events, Mr Michael, is at the

break-up of the meeting, Brodie and I had a conversation where it was

discussed that he would talk to HR, which he did. I did not suggest a

retirement, but I did discuss one with him. Is it correct that you

were offered retirement from your post at that time? Ifrpblgt he put

to me that I would be -- He put to me that I was suspended and an

investigation would commence. He said I could take retirement.

the same meeting saying you were suspended he offered you

retirement? He advised I should take it. There are key minutes of

meetings and e-mails that would help the committee's report, so far

the Home Office has declined to provide them until other

investigations are complete, in the new year. Richard Watson is here.

Is Theresa May off the hook? think she's much stronger tonight,

actually. I think Brodie Clark has a problem, which we outlined in the

film. These documents we obtained from inside the UK Border Force e-

mails confirm really the nature of the finger print checks were being

discussed, withdrawing those in certain circumstances, on many,

many occasions. Many hundreds of occasions. Given that, I think he

has a tough job explaining why he didn't inform the Home Secretary

fully about that, and if he didn't, which it appears he didn't. He has

some very tough questions to answer. If the politicians eurozone thought

they had dowsed the fire, they were wrong. It even started licking

around France today, while Italy found the cost of borrowing

moneying 7% today, and the European Commission -- money 7% today. And

the European Commission told there would be confirmation it would do

what it is told. It was short of asking for signatures in blood,

only just. Whatever the outcome there will be a new Europe at the

end of all this. Trying to get a fix on what it might be like, I

spokes today to the Prime Minister of Denmark.

They are also not in the euro, but about to assume the presidency of

the EU in a few weeks time. Prime Minister, you must be rather

pleased that the people of Denmark decided not to join the euro?

have always been in favour of the euro, I still am. Really, it is a

disaster? I don't think the euro has been a disaster. We have

differences and difficulties in Europe right now. But I think that

is nothing to do with the euro. That is to do with member states

that are not capable of keeping their economy in order. You still

would like Denmark to join the euro? Yeah, I would. Right now?

Right now we are not putting it to a referendum. The euro is too much

of a moving target to put to a referendum. In principle, it would

be good for Denmark to join the euro. Even under these

circumstances? I think this is a difficult situation. This is the

biggest crisis we have had in the euro ever, but I also think that it

is not the problems, it is not the euro that is causing the problems.

The cause of these problems is the member-states have not been capable

of keeping their economy in order. That's why, what is needed now,

more than anything, is that each individual member-state keeps their

house in order. When we look at Europe, currently faced with a 17 -

- currently comprised with 17 member states inside the euro and

ten outside the euro. In ten years time you don't think it will be

like this? There are certain member-states that are out and

planning to join the euro, we still have member-states joining the euro.

If you had your way there is only one state not the euro that is

Britain? We have to accept that we have some member states that don't

want to join the euro. We have some member states very happy with the

euro, and wouldn't live without it. What we need to do in Europe right

now is to make sure we have an understanding for the 17 and the

decisions they have to take together. But we also keep the 27

firmly together, in a crisis, I think that is even more important.

But there is a danger, isn't there, that if you have 17 within the euro

and ten outside the euro, that the 17 get together, in order to make

the euro, as they see it, work, and that has bad consequences,

potentially, for the ten outside, and consequences furthermore about

which they can do nothing? I think we need to understand the countries

that are not in the euro. We need to understand there are certain

issues that the 17 euro member countries need to sort out

themselves. I have no problem understanding that. I also think it

is very important that all of us, the 27 are together in the same

room, when we take decisions that affect all of us. During the Danish

presidency, during which time your country is going to have to help

some how sort out the whole crisis in the eurozone. Isn't the

inevitable tendency that there will be irresistable power for the

repatriation of powers, from the centre, to member states. We need

to see how that discussion pans out in Europe. We still don't know. I

think what we should focus on now, is to solve the crisis, consolidate

our economies, have the necessary discipline in each individual

member-state. And after that, we should focus on growth and new jobs.

I think what people want from us now, is to focus on growth and new

jobs, not institutional changes, not long debates in Europe, but

growth and new jobs. If I can make any difference in Europe in the

next six months this is the difference I would like to make.

when people suggest in this country that the destiny within Europe that

Britain ought to see, is some sort of leadership position, or highly

influential position, within the group of ten not within the euro,

that is something, what do you think about it? I think it is in

the interests of all the countries that are not in the euro, to keep

the 27 countries together. I think it is really important, in a crisis

like we have now, that the 27 that decided to be in the same club,

stick together. If we start spliting off in different groupings,

I don't think we will create a strong Europe. Prime Minister,

thank you. David Miliband, who in a previous

life was Foreign Secretary is still here. Do you share the Danish Prime

Minister's continuing enthusiasm for the euro? Not in quite the same

degree of commitment. The economic circumstances aren't right for

Britain, I don't see them being right in the foreseeable future.

She made a really important point, though, the European Union faces

two futures, one that the 17 run the whole show, with Britain and

countries like Denmark effectively in a second division. Or, you find

a way for the 27, all 27 countries to work together, some of them

leading on macro-economic issues to do with the euro, others, including

us playing a forward role, whether on energy, foreign policy or

defence. That is a fateful choice for Britain. For 40 years

Governments of both parties in this country have tried to avoid a two-

speed Europe, that is the danger emerging at the moment. Hearing you

talk like that, it is quite like old times. I wish Jeremy. You still

have an appetite for the fight? course. Thank you. That is all from

Hello there, lots of crowd and mist around overnight, fog patches too,

it all adds up to a pretty grey start on Wednesday. Some places

will have some sunshine, for many glum. Particularly in the western

areas. For the western opinion nines and the Midlands expect a

cloudy day. For parts of the east it may well cheer up, there could

be sunshine, where we do get the sunshine, temperatures up to 12-1.

It is not going to be much sunshine here. Outbreaks of rain working

their way across Devon and Cornwall. That same area of rain will push

into the west of Wales during the afternoon. Further north, because

Northern Ireland's has some brightness early on. Drizzley rain

at times to end the day. For most of Scotland it should be dry. Lots

of cloud across central and southern Scotland. In the north we

may well get sunshine. Again there could be stubborn fog patches.

Things change on Wednesday through Thursday, rain working northwards,

rain may return to Northern Ireland and western Scotland later on

Thursday. For England and Wales, Thursday promises some bright or

sunny spells. Where the sun comes out, temperatures into the teens.

Cloudy across eastern England on Thursday, a good part of the day