08/12/2011 Newsnight

Tonight, as we go on air, the late nice horse trading and briefing has

begun in Brussels. It is the most perilous moment for the European

Union, since it was founded as the great bulwark against future

war.forged out of post-war Europe. But do today's leaders really have

a plan that can save us from what Sarkozy described today as Europe

Sarkozy described today as Europe exploding.

Home to a welcome he will never forget. David Cameron said he will

wield the veto to protect Britain's interest, already two of his

backbenchers offensively compared him to Neville Chamberlain, who

appeased Hitler. We will be live at the summit and with politicians and

bankers from across Europe. Also today, extreme weather ripped

through Scotland and northern England, shutting schools,

businesses and bridges and airports, with winds up to 165 miles an hour.

Later in the programme we will be joined by John Prescott, just back

from the climate change conference in Durban, to discuss with the

climate minister whether politicians are blowing cold on

their global warming commitments. Do you know this voice?

butterflies, high-flyers on high winds, invisible to us they plane

and soar. Beyond our minds' troubled conventioning. The man

described as the greatest living poet, who has given a rare

interview to Newsnight. Europe is a maelstrom, and tonight

Angela Merkel warned that national interests and egos have to be put

aside. Straight away there was discord when President Sarkozy and

Angela Merkel failed to agree David Cameron's demands for protection

for financial services in support of a new treaty. The mood music

from the European Central Bank, Mario Draghi, didn't lift spirits

today, he revealed the bank wouldn't be stepping up to buy

bonds any time soon. Once a dream to some, the prospect of a

disunited Europe could be a nightmare. We're in Brussels. What

is the latest you are hearing? latest is they have finished dinner,

that has taken the usual form of people delivering their prepared

views, as it were, now they are getting into the more serious face-

to-face negotiations. This is either the sixth or eighth of the

save the euro summit, depending on how you wish to count them. It is

interesting how the rhetorical handle has to be cranked each time,

to suggest the end of the world is nigh. There really is a very

serious crisis out there hearing some of the language used by

President Sarkozy today, it went to new rhetorical extremes, talking

about the disintegration of the whole European project. It is

interesting that it isth seems to be the feeling that kind of

language is necessary, in order to get some of the leaders here to

focus, to set aside, certain national priorities in the common

good. And the very fact that this has been going on for as long as it

has, in the view of many bankers and diplomats, drawing out the

crisis and making it cost a lot more to solve, is evidence of

profound dysfunction at the heart of the European Union, and in that

sense, some of the rhetoric about how this is the most serious crisis

since the organisation came into being, does seem to have foundation.

Two-speed Europe, the term has been bandied about before, but the

divide between those in and out of the euro is deepening. The

formation of the European Economic Community in 1957 was meant to stop

nationalism destroying the continent again.

And to bring unity in its wake. But today, national interest appears to

condition responses to the euro crisis.

The people of Europe, the Governments of Europe, really, have

got to come to terms with that, that a degree of integration, maybe

something like the degree we have got, or maybe a little bit less

than that, but a degree of integration can be made to work.

But the ever-closer union, and to eventually have political unity,

although of a federal nature, that is not going to happen.

So the leaders convened tonight for their umpteen th attempt to resolve

the European crisis, Chancellor Merkel of Germany was pushing her

wishes of further fiscal integration with treaty changes.

TRANSLATION: What is important to me is the euro will get back its

credibility and we can change the treaties in a way that will help

the euro lead us into a stable future. She and President Nicolas

Sarkozy, have hammered out a measure of agreement between them,

and say they will push ahead with just the 17 eurozone countries, if

need be. They could be trying to intimidate Britain and other

outsiders from getting in the way. For the UK then, the dilemma now is

how to protect national interests from the margins.

It is about making sure that the UK is in the room when decisions on

the single market are taken, that goes beyond the City of London and

the financial sector, it is about pushing forward with a common

energy policy, a single digital market. No, no, no. Of course,

Margaret Thatcher wasn't afraid of standing in the way of federal

Europe, in fact, she revelled in it. That didn't result in exclusion,

and indeed, many Conservatives were not afraid of being kept out of

certain European conversations any way.

As for Cameron being isolated, neither here nor there, the Foreign

Office is always wet, they hate being isolate -- isolated, they

hate discussions going on in any room where they are not present.

The best thing is not to be present in the meetings, you don't want to

be worried about that sort of thing. For David Cameron, the desire not

to be painted as the summit's wrecker will be balanced by the

home political advantage that he may gain from being seen as a

defender of national interests. But that's not so different from the

others. Everyone wants different things,

sometimes it is like playing chess against 26 different people, rather

than just one person, I'm not that good at chess any way, I will be

doing my best for Britain, and I hope, if we get a good deal, that

will be good for Britain f I can't get what I want, I will have no

hesitation in vetoing a treaty at 27, I'm not going to go to Brussels

and not stand up for our country. For decades, European vision rees

extoled an ever-closer process of integration, in which national

differences would be subsumed in the common interest, and the

members of the EU would stand so close together that their positions

would become almost intis tinge girbable., -- indistinguishable.

But national leaderships are answerable to this lot, national

electorates. There have been many points in the past where national

interests and that of the EU have come into conflict. What has

happened recently is the economic crisis has exacerbated those

tensions, and this week, even countries that aspire to leadership

of the wider block, France and Germany, have been forced to

acknowledge that unity could crumble and that a two or even

multispeed Europe may result. In the fight to save the single

currency, German national interests have remained at the forefront,

quite quit, you might say, given how much of the bill they are

paying. But one reason that the eurozone crisis has grown so severe,

is national concerns have frustrated common action. Firstly,

I think euro-sceptics in our country make the mistake that they

seem to think that British separatisim means we are the only

ones standing up for the national interest. In all European

negotiations every member-state stands up for their national

interest, they have to all answer their own electorate. Chancellor

Merkel is in that position and is that is why's in a difficult

position. What might the community's kounders make of the

summit -- founders make of the summit. Given the sluggish way the

eurocrisis has been dealt with, they might vau depressing

conclusions. We know there was an early rebuff with the meeting

between Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy and David Cameron tonight.

What is the position tonight? of reTateing their position. The

centralish -- restating their position. The central issue that

has to be solved in the UK context is that of trying to drive away the

proposal tabled earlier this week by the French and Germans, of

harmonising tax arrangements, with the idea of a financial

transactions tax. That is clearly something the UK regards as being

dangerous, potentially to the City and its position in global finance.

In a way, you can say, that finding some sort of language, that allows

David Cameron to let the eurozone people do the core business their

way, and safeguard the UK national interest, is not the most difficult

of the problems that this summit faces. At its core are these

different distinctive positions of Germany and France about how this

issue should be solved. We have heard earlier this evening that

some language put forward in a draft document, that put forward a

way through this one could say in a way more friendly to the French

position, or tried to bridge the gap and create this big bazooka

that people are talking about, this Stability Mechanism, bring it

forward, the implementation of it, and allow, through it, the Central

Bank to play more of a role in stablising the whole situation.

That was put forward and has been rejected out of hand by Germany.

That is what's reported. It is simply the case that their

opposition to using the Central Bank as the lender of last resort,

and the policeman, if you like, is so fundamental, they will not

compromise that point. Those are the real core issues around those

types of issue. In that context, the British problem, it is a

significant one, clearly domestically and in party political

terms a very significant one for Mr Cameron, it ought to be solable.

We were talking about Angela Merkel's opposition to the ECB

being a lender of last resort. What was the mood music coming from

Mario Draghi, that he wouldn't be coming up with any more any time

soon? He has done some tactics, he has cut interest rates to a quarter

of a per cent. One FT journalist commented that is a quarter of a

per cent less insane than it was before. Many observers thought they

were crazy to raise interest rates, they have pumped a lot of money

into the European banking system which relaxing rules. These are

tactics, aggressive tactics adopted in the face of what? The German

banking system needs another eight billion, the banking system is

shaky with no strategy. The European Central Bank boss said

today, we are not even going to try to get around the treaty. We are

just not going to lend money to countries. That is the big stick

that is being waved over the delegates' heads now tonight in

that building. What exactly will the ECB be looking for, how does

that fit? If they say we are not doing it, that makes the European

Union have to, or the eurozone have to become a fiscal union before

they can. I think, for the owe fish nad doughs of the build -- owe fish

nad doughs of these dofficionados of the building, it is swinging

back to a fund position, a fund where tax-payers in Europe are

being exposed, rather than being exposed via the Central Bank. That

is what they are working on, who knows if tomorrow night we will be

swinging back to where the markets want us to be, which is the ECB,

lender of last resort. David Cameron had barely arrived in

Brussels when some of his backbenchers were Jacobiteing at

Westminster. Two Conservative MPs even compared him to Neville

Chamberlain, who, of course, tried to appease Hitler. We have had

enough of reading of British Prime Ministers over the last 20 or 30

years, in the days preceding a summit, that they would indeed

stand up for British national interests, that they would ensure

that our interests are protected. Excuse me. I will give way. And

then, coming back from a summit, with a kind of Chamberlainesque

piece of paper, saying I have negotiated very, very hard, I got

opt-out from this and that, and I have succeeded in standing up for

British interests, and that piece of paper is not worth the paper it

is written on. That was Edward Leigh. David Grossman, evoking this

period in history is incredibly shocking? Number Ten have called it

offensive and ridiculous, not just for David Cameron shown as the

apieceer, but other people in the scenario are the person being

appeased, the Hitler figure. A number of backbenchers are in

conflict with their leader over Europe. Why does this happen? It is

simple. The concessions to real politic at the top are more than

you can stomach. The euro-sceptics, like Edward Leigh and others who

spoke in the Westminster Hall debate, feel utterly vindicated by

what has happened in the eurozone. All the predictions they made and

warnings they gave. They were called lunatics at the time, and

yet they feel utterly vindicated by what has happened. What is worrying

for David Cameron in all of this, is the mistrust of the European

project has spread to him. Why? I could give you loads of examples

why they feel let down by him. I will give you one. Back in October

when they were told not to vote for a referendum, they were told, don't

worry, I will go to Europe, they will have to renegotiate a treaty

and I will then use that as an opportunity to exercise our might

in that scenario, and repatriate powers. Now they are told, now's

not the time. It would almost be rude for us to do that. In that

case, what do the euro-sceptics and the backbenchers do next? If there

is Anne greeplt, and hearing from Mark it is not clear -- an

agreement, and hearing from Mark it is not clear, they will scrutinise

it before the Commons statement and next Thursday, I hear, that the DUP

might be using their opposition day debate maybe to make a bit of

mischief. We will see what motion they put down and how many

Conservatives attempt to vote for it. We will be hearing again

towards the programme from Mark on the latest developments. Is this

likely to be the start of a whole new Europe. Joining me now to

discuss it is the former principal economist at the European Central

Bank, and the British Conservative MEP, Sophie Hannah, and from

Brussels, I'm joined by cash Cash, I'm joined by my guests here in

Brussels and in the studio. Do you distance yourself from any

idea that there is a Chamberlainesque moment for David

Cameron, do you think an apology is necessary? You should be very

careful in this game of making ridiculous parallels, which damage

your case. The only parallel that I think would be a fair one is the

whole country, the whole establishment was backing the wrong

policy the CBI and the TUC, the European thing is falling to pieces,

to go beyond that and imply we are dealing with Hitler is ridiculous.

You think they both should apology guise, on the record? I think if

you listen to what he said, he didn't said David Cameron was like

Hitler, if that was his intention I'm sure he would want to take that

back. Tell me, you have been listening to what David Grossman

was saying here, this whole era, this whole way of talking about

Germany, it is very dangerous, isn't it? Do you know, first of all,

I think the whole era of talking about this has split -- and these

splits in the Tory Party is missing the point. Talking about Cameron

and the backbenchers, backbenchers reflect what their constituents

want them to do, the reason they are concerned about this, is

because the people who are coming to their surgeries are telling them.

It is not just Conservatives, all parties supporters are angry about

how power has gone out to Europe. Do you think a deal can be reached

in the next 48 hours? I just pick up firstly on that last point about

democracy, these are the elected leaders of 27 democracies. It is

not technocrats, they are elected and accountable leaders, coming

together to try to deal with a common problem. In particular the

problem of excessive debt in a certain number of countries that

risks destablising the system in the eurozone and beyond. That is

what they are here to do. Richard n Italy and Greece elected prime

ministers have been toppled in favour of technocrats. That is what

the system has come to, in order to keep it together you have a

national Government with the sole purpose of doing what Europe tells

it to. Dan, you know perfectly well that the Greek Government was

toppled by the Greek political system, the Greek parliament, which

elected a new Prime Minister, the same in Italy. Nobody in any other

country can impose a Government on one of the fellow members of the

European Union. That is a myth. Having sorted that out, my original

question, do you think there can be some sort of deal, the bones of a

new treaty, worked out in the next 48 hours? I think they are work on

a package, some elements will involve decisions that can be taken

immediately on the basis of the existing treaties. Other decisions,

probably remember a treaty amendment and will take a longer

period of time. -- it is about which elements require a

fundamental change to the treaty. Will it lead to a two-speed Europe,

will there be the 17 and then the 10 at the moment? On questions

relating to the currency we already have 17 countries that share a

currency and ten that don't. It is natural those who share a currency

have to take some decisions together. They may want to take

more decisions together or impose more disciplines on themselves.

That doesn't detract from the rest of what the European Union does.

Even in the economic sphere, the bulk of policy making will be at

the level of the 27. Trade policy, competition policy, the common

rules for our Common Market, the world's largest single market,

which is so important for all of us. Let's deal with this. All that is a

matter for the 27. For the 17, it is perfectly possible the 17 could

agree a deal on a new fiscal rules, a new way of working without David

Cameron having any say so, that is the fact isn't it? I don't think so.

If you speak to anyone in the hall they tell you there is no prospect

of that. It would be the same as with the Social Chapter and other

things, the idea that they would start from scratch now, with a

completely new legal structure, new institutions, hiring new staff, at

the same time we are told we have to do this tomorrow because of the

immediacy of the crisis, simply not the case. Britain has an incredibly

strong position. If I'm wrong about that and the 17 will go ahead and

form a European economic Government in Richard's phrase, that is surely

good for Britain. It would mean the political bits of integration would

shift to the 17, leaving the EU as much more of a free trade area,

that is what my constituents would feel much more in accordance with

our national interest. All of this is predicated on a number of things,

being a former ECB banker, picking up on what Paul Mason was saying,

this is put together so ECB can take a bigger role and be the

lender of last resort? It does go together. If tonight or tomorrow we

hear about a move to stricter fiscal rules, it would give some

rules for the ECB to intervene more specifically in the bond markets.

What we heard from Mr Draghi today that they are not ready yet to be a

fully fledged lender of last resort here in the UK, from the Bank of

England, or in the US from the Federal Reserve. If there were

credible fiscal rules the ECB would be ameanable to do more than it has

so far. What about the idea of a separate fund, a taxpayer-funded

fund? Mr Draghi seems to have ruled that out, he didn't seem in favour.

The idea of this would be, especially if the IMF is involved,

then we get the conditionality, that this money is only released if

Governments do respect some objectives, which is one of the

main issues with the ECB, that it doesn't want to bail out

Governments. But coming to you again on that, there would have to

be new rules, wouldn't there, for the ECB to become the lender of

last resort? The ECB is the lender of last resort to banks already.

Qet is whether it can buy up Government debt. Remember it is an

independent bank, politicians can't tell it what to do. Though it does

take its own decisions by majority vote, internally, by the way, there

is no veto here, as to what it should do. In function of the wider

economic and political situation. I'm sure if a deal is reached now,

it will make it easier for the bank to do something. This is all about

getting the bank to become involved directly, isn't it? That is the

bottom line? To become more involved. It already is to a degree,

as you know. But actually, you know, this has to happen, doesn't it?

This is yet another bank bailout. This is yet another tax on ordinary

people, to rescue some very wealthy individuals from the consequences

of their own bad investments. We began by bailing out banks, now

whole countries, whether through a fund or printing money, it is all

the same thing. The EU has responded to this crisis at every

step with the same policy, bailout and borrow, you don't help an

indebted friend by pressing more loans on them. The other member

states of the EU are indeed lending money to those countries that have

excessive deficits and having problems borrowing, to give them

time to turn the corner. They are treating a debt crisis with more

debt. It is not tax-payers' money or grants, it is loans, with rate

of interest, so the countries get their money back with interest.

Every time that policy fails... plea come in. If the EC -- Marie

come in. If the ECB doesn't come in there is no point in a change to

the treaty? The ECB is the only institute that can do something now.

So all the cards are in Mario Draghi's hands moment? They act

together, the ECB takes into account what Governments agree on.

The fiscal rules are medium term, not an impact tomorrow. Let's look

at a possible outcome, would you like to see a deal done in Europe?

If that deal means sacrificing the prosperity of the eurozone states

to the maintenance of the single currency, then I think that would

be worse than the alternative. I think we now need an orderly

unbundling of the euro, we need to recognise the monetary union is the

disease rather than the cure and in keeping it together we are treating

the tumour rather than the patient. We will have more from the summit

later in the programme, as the leaders, we hope, start to give

their press conferences. In a moment we will be talking

about the very heavy weather in Scotland and the north of England.

Today it has been making headlines, and there is a red alert at the Met

Office, in a far off, much warmer country, talks about climate change,

which end tomorrow, have been less prominent on the radar. With little

sign of movement from the key players in Durban in South Africa

over the last ten days, and with the Keothavong agreement due to

come to -- Kyoto agreement due to come to an end next year. In a

moment I will put that to Lord Prescott, who negotiated the Kyoto

deal, and my other guest, now my science editor is with me now.

This is the point where the real negotiation begins with ministers.

There are some signs of progress. Just to remind you, climate

scientists will tell you if politicians want it avoid the worst

effects of climate change, emissions need to peak by 2020 and

then start to fall. Looking back two years ago to Copenhagen, the

broad aim of finding a global agreement with legally binding cuts

in emissions, that is not really what they are talking about here.

The aim is to find something beyond the first phase of Kyoto, it won't

happen in Durban, negotiators are playing a longer game now. America

is taking a tough position tonight. The EU has said it will agrow to a

second phase of Kyoto, beyond the first phase of Kyoto, if China and

the basic countries, the other countries, Brazil, South Africa and

India, if they agree now, that they will at some point, sign up to

legally binding targets. There is some talk of China signing up. On

money too there is movement. This fund to help developing countries

to cope with climate change, it is already processed, at this point it

is about who will get on to which committee rather than how the money

could reach vulnerable countries. Do you sense a change in mood and a

backing off as far as the UK is concerned? There is no tried and

trusted technique for moving to a low-carbon economy. That is the

problem. In times of economic gloom it is even harder to persuade

people that is a shift that is worth making. Some of the

coalition's messages on this have become muddy. This began with the

Chancellor, George Osborne's speech at the party conference, tauing

about moving away from this idea of vote blue, go green, what he said

then was the UK would cut carbon emissions no slower but no faster

than fellow countries in Europe. In the Autumn Statement, choose to go

compensate heavy industry for some of the costs of climate change

policies, and labels environmental policies as a burden to British

Industry. Those calling for a shift to the low carbon economy will say

the mixed message is not needed to inspire confidence in investors,

you won't get the money even if you have the skills and technologies.

Amongst consumers there is a signs there is a paling of enthusiasm for

green matters. There was a survey out yesterday, the British Social

Attitudes Survey. The results showed 37% of people surveyed think

that many of the claims about environmental threats are

exaggerated. That is up from 24% ten years ago. 26% of people are

saying they would be willing to pay higher prices to protect

environment, down from 43% a decade ago.

You suggest those kind of attitude surveys, that drop there in

exaggerated problems with the environment, means people are less

persuaded or more pragmatic because of their pockets? Because they are

talking about whether they are prepared to pay. We are seeing it

in the business community, where climate change priorities are

moving down the agenda. We are joined by John Prescott and Greg

Barker joining us from Durban. Do you sense an attitude change in the

UK? No, I think the UK are making a strong argument, actually, for

keeping the Europeans on-line with getting a proper agreement on the

second period of Kyoto. I did the meeting with him and the Chinese

negotiator, it was clear, I think they are moving towards an

agreement. What is the agreement? One, to recognise that the values

and the principles embodied in Kyoto II, will continue, and

therefore up to 2015, under the Cancun principles, we are working

in that direction. When you look at the change in mood in George

Osborne's statement, that basically, doesn't want environmental matters

to be a burden to British businesses and he's also given a

tax break to energy service industries. It was said that does

not mean clear mood music for investors? Tombly we are moving on

in terms of green economic d actually we are moving in --

actually we are moving on in terms of green economics. These talks are

very important. I went to Germany in September to see how Germany

manages to reconcile the fact that they have the largest renewable

energy sector in Europe, but are also a manufacturing powerhouse.

The fact is, Germany has just as much ambition as we do, here in the

UK, but, they give a total exemption to the enity-intensive

industries for paying for their climate policies and renewable tax.

As a result they have seen manufacturing flourish and making

big steps to decash onise their economy. We need to be a little

more sensible, we need to recognise...let me just finish this

point. We need to recognise that it is not helping the planet if we

just export jobs and businesses into other parts of the world. The

really difficult, tough thing is to decarbonise your economy. But at

the same time, recognise that you need to grow, advance manufacturing

and retain an industrial base, it is not easy, and we need to be a

more sophisticated policy to achieve that. You were the one you

said yourself, you need a clear policy going forward, you are the

one who said we need the low carbon economy, but what is happening is,

pragmatic position, which is not clear to inward investors about

what your policy is? We have got a great deal of policy. We are of

course going for a slight hiatus. You are sending mixed messages?

we are going through a slight hiatus because we are in a period

of policy transition and electricity market reform. That

will reform the electricity industry to the largest extent

since privatisation in the 1980s. All driven to move us to a

decarbonised basis. There is a lot in flux. What investors really want

is certainty, that is why we are bringing forward things like the

carbon floor price. People in times of economic need, John Prescott,

don't put environmental issues as a priority, did you know that? They

do need to know more. The polls showed that. We are not educating

enough about the difficulty. Perhaps they don't want to know

because it is too difficult? Perhaps they don't want the fear

they are hearing about. What about moving to a low-carbon economy.

What we have to change considerably is the way we do things. The man

who produced the extreme weather report you were almost referring to

there, he actually joined with me to launch a million, wait Kirsty,

sometimes you have to explain this, a million homes to be lit up using

solar power in India. In this country the smart metres, which the

Government is actually doing to reduce the demand. Or indoing

something which I found there, this is paper wine bottle, 10% less

carbon in its production. We have to look at a major change in

consumption and production. In the short-term, in the next two or

three years, when a lot of families are facing an economic nightmare,

frankly, they may in their heart of hearts believe they should do their

bit, sometimes it is a bit too hard? We have to take the long-term

view. What is the nature for the British economy, it has to be low

carbon, there is an agreement between myself and what the

Government is doing to get the targets. How do you make the

transitions difficult? To tell people it is better in ten years

times, we have to go on that policy. You believe the Government is doing

the right thing? They are doing a number of things, cutting back on

supsidies on solar we could argue about, allowing nimbus to decide if

they want a windture bin, when wind is a new energy, they shouldn't

allow that. There was plenty of extreme weather

in the UK, there is no suggestion that climate change had anything to

do with it. Right across what was once described as north Britain,

Scotland, Northern Ireland, and northern England, have had, and are

still having a day and night of violent storms of power outages.

The disruption to schools businesses and travel was enormous.

From the heavens this is what the storm looked like over Scotland

early today. Down below the cold reality blew in, a normal life for

hundreds of thousands of Scots was temporarily suspended. With

shorelines battered and the Forth Bridge closed for most of the day.

The wind force reached 165 miles per hour in the Cairngorms, 50,000

people were left without power. In a decade Britain hasn't seen worse

storms than this. The north of England was buffeted, the lorry was

upended on the A66 in Yorkshire. Two people had to be rescued when

their car was swept into the River York in Northern Ireland. In bane

bridge wind were 80 miles an hour and in Wales. It was Scotland that

suffered most, police advised against all travel in the centre of

the country. This was Helenburgh on the Firth of Clyde, up river

schools were closed north of Glasgow and the west. Consequently

this school bus was empty, the driver unhurt. In Aberdeen, car

owners had a lucky escape when a wall collapsed. We felt the

rumbling and the bang of the building that collapsed. Very scary,

we all got a scare. In Edinburgh the Hibs football

training session had to be abandoned. In north Ayrshire, a

wind farm burst into flames. Tomorrow, it is expected to be

calmer, with snow and ice. Just before we came on air I spoke

to the deputy First Minister, Nicola sturpblg sturpblg and I

asked her how -- Sturg eon and asked her how bad it was? This is

only the third time in ten years we have seen wind speeds like this.

There is significant disruption, in all of the circumstances we have

coped as well as could have been expected. Did the Resilience

Committee, model from these extreme conditions? We model for various

scenario, over the course of yesterday we were getting regular

advice from the Met Office, the police, and took decisions based on

that advice. I think the decisions we took, particularly last night,

around school closures, proved today to be absolutely the right

decisions. I have just come from the latest meeting of the

Government Resilience Commit year, it will meet at ministerial level

tomorrow morning. What about the pressure on the

emergency services? The emergency services have coped extremely well

today, the police have been first class as you would expect. The NHS

has coped extremely well in general, there has been some damage,

particularly to a hospital in Fife, that had part of its roof blown off

today. Transport authorities, both road and rail, have also coped

extremely well. There has been massive effort today.

Just briefly, what about the impact on the economy today? That is

likely to be significant. But employers have taken the right

decisions, many employers allowed their staff to go home early. The

public has, by and large, heeded the advise that was different, and

I thank them for their patience and their forebearance. That has meant,

although there is significant disruption, we have coped as well

as could be expected. You say it is moving north but also blizzard

conditions as well? The wind is moving north, the areas up north

are likely, over the remainder of tonight and into the early hours of

the morning, to see 90 miles per hour wind. Because the pefrpures

will be lower, there is also -- temperatures will be lower, there

is a significant risk of snow and business standard conditions, that

is why we continue to monitor the situation very closely indeed.

We will be live at the Brussels summit in few moments with some

ministers who have just left dinner. First, poets laureate are the

public's face of poetry. To raise awareness about the art. There is

one poet routinely described as one the greatest writing, but whose

critical acclaim supersedes his public -- sales.

He rarely gives interviews, but first Steven Smith had to find him.

When you are looking for England's greatest living poet, you might

begin with the landscape, he so memorably described.

An ancient land, full of strategy. This man's work has been called

"serious" even "difficult", he himself has kept a low profile,

almost to the point of invisibility. All in all then, he cuts an

agreably forbidding figure. It turns out all we had to do was

ask, in his new house outside Cambridge, Geoffrey Hill, 79, has

struck a rich seam of wrielting. have been writing -- Writing.

have been writing for 60 years. Then I felt happy if I managed to

write seven peoples in a year. I feel unhappy if I haven't written

seven peoples in a week. Really, that is extraordinary? Yeah. What

do you put that down to? I have pondered this, and I have got some

very secret ideas and theories as to what it may be due to. Wild hors

wouldn't drag them out of me. I will -- horses wouldn't drag them

out of me. I will write it on my death bed, like an old lady

donating her dand lion recipe to her -- dandolion recipe to her kin.

I will put it down in the autobiography. Can I explore it?

It is not to do with being happier generally? No, no. It is a mystery?

It is a mystery. It is all a mystery. You know, you just won't

tell me? I think I know. I think I know.

"as to the ant, when chance disturbs state, divisions huge,

minute, crude, delicate, like egg and spoon, white grub rice grain,

she works her reach with pitch and stretch, staid in that giant

flesh." My reputation is that of a solemn intellectual. Really I'm a

kind of rip roaring fantasist. I like getting on to a bench and

standing on one leg. In fact,the current Oxford Professor of Poetry,

credits a perhaps unlikely influence on his work. I was in a

shop in Leeds the other morning, said excuse me can you help me out,

he said, sure which way did you come in. I allowed my love of the

comedians to get into my poetry. future scolars of your work, should

have your stuff open on the one land and Ken Dodd and Frankie

Howard's material on hand. They would see a connection. I hope so,

yes, I will leave a lot of heavy hints. The way a comic will often

think to stregs the grammatically unimportant -- stress the

grammatically unimportant words. It brings out a quite equisite sense

of the individuality breaking through the formula.

Why haven't we heard more from Geoffrey Hill, the Bard of an

arkaiback Albion, we have simply been looking the wrong way. He has

plenty to say on Shakespeare and rap, for example.

From my relatively marginal experience of that, I don't think

any of the rappers I have heard, have the potential of great poetry

in them. I think that Shakespeare of this century, would certainly,

would certainly learn from rap, yes. "the butterflies, high flyers on

high winds, invisible to us, they plane and soar. Beyond our minds'

troubled conventioning, and do not err.

What do you hope to do with the professorship of poetry? I welcome

the opportunity to go over, once a term, and perform one thousandth as

well as Ken Dodd! I think he just might manage that. We go back to

the summit in Brussels. Mark has grabbed a guest.

Yes I have Lucinda Creighton, the Irish Europe minister, who has just

come from inside the negotiations, is the atmosphere behind there, as

they say in diplomatic speak, business like, is it a frank

discussion going on there? Most certainly. I think at the outside

there was a mood of deep concern, quite frankly, over the course of

the day, and obviously we came, myself and our Taoiseach from the

EPB summit in Marseille directly to Brussels, it was clear there was a

wide divergance of views. Now, I think, from what I'm hearing this

evening, leaders are moving closer together, and they seem to be a

little bit more upbeat and a bit more optimistic this evening.

what point in a summit like this, do people move past these opening

salvos, these positions and really begin to drill down. Do you see

evidence already occurring tonight, or will it all happen tomorrow?

think there will be progress tonight. I suppose at what stage in

the night I'm not sure. Certainly I think when it gets after midnight

people get down to business and want to start moving forward. The

soundings we are hearing from the meeting room tonight is that is

what is happening. It is business like, they are going through the

texts of proposals from Herman Van Rompuy, teasing out the issues and

findings areas where they can find common ground. Briefly, Irish

concerns about the possible fraings transfers tax, similar to the UK.

Is that a done deal or is it still possible for the UK and Ireland to

knock it out of the picture? don't think it is a done deal,

there are more than just the UK and Ireland, there are a lot of member

states with concerns about the tax proposal. From Ireland's

prospective, we would certainly not like to be separated from the kufpl

in that regard, that the eurozone would do something different to the

EU27. There is an argument of putting it into the context of a

global situation. Do we want to disadvantage Europe, vis a vis the

rest of the world. That is all from Brussels tonight, we will be back

tomorrow. That is all from Newsnight tonight.

Wherever you are, baton down the Wherever you are, baton down the

hatches, good night. Hill low, after an incredibly

stormy Thursday, there are quieters conditions on the way for fli. Icey

conditions to start the day in Scotland, Northern Ireland, and the

North West of eing lan. A weakening band across England. That will be

aityure during the afternoon, appearing in the parts of North

Wales. To the south plenty of sunshine. A colder day than we had

today, temperatures held down in single figures. If you look at the

strength of the wind, it is breezeyo and the wind continue down

through the day, plenty of sunshine and dry weather. The weakening band

of rain, sleet and hill snow, not just affecting northern England,

but North Wales and Northern Ireland to begin the day. For the

afternoon there is plenty of sunshine, for much of Scotland it

is a Wighter day, thankfully, lots of dry d a brighter day, lots of

dry and cold weather, the snow showers here could create blaze

standard conditions over higher ground. Wet weather will move

through plan Chester, not a constant all-day rain. In parts of

Scotland to begin the weekend, snow, sleet and wind returning. Fine

weather, not just for Friday, but for Saturday, before things change