16/01/2012 Newsnight

Tonight, we make a dangerous foray to the suburbs of Damascus, it is

no longer the Syrian Government in no longer the Syrian Government in

control, but the rebels. Can the regime maintain the

illusion that there is really nothing wrong.

TRANSLATION: We don't just want to bring down the regime now, or the

President to step down, we want to hang him.

The imposition on Syria of an outside force now inevitable, one

for our defence editor. There are rumabilities in the gulf

state that they may be ready to commit troops to arrest the descent

into civil war. We investigate whether school

academys are bending over back wards to stop problem pupils

sitting GCSEs. The message they are getting is you are independent and

in charge, and the dark arts is a temptation if you are trying to

improve the league table position. This what you get when you put

results ahead of pupils. The Mirror editor concedes maybe

his reporters were hacking phones, but all behind his back.

possible it was being gone on but hidden from you. Hud the newspaper

industry be getting ready for the big crackdown, the editor of the

Independent is here. The increasing intensity of the

uprising in it Syria, and President Assad's continuing crackdown in it

defiance of everyone from the Arab League to the UN proving a much

more complex problemer for the international community, than

dealing with -- problem for the international community, than

dealing with Libya, for example. There is Qatari support for sending

in troops with growing support from the Arab world. How would Assad

react, Iran has said it will provide support for Syria if it

comes under attack. It is extremely hard toen gauge who has the whip

hand in Syria. -- to engage who has the whip hand in Syria. We have a

report from Damascus, operating under the regime's restrictions.

As you say, operating for foreign journalists in Syria is difficult.

You need special permission for everywhere you want to go to, and

permission for known trouble spots isn't normally granted. Having said

that, I think the presence of the Arab League monitors here, over the

last month, has opened things up a chink. I think there are more,

considerably more journalists here, foreign journalists now with visas.

We have been able to move slightly more freely. But, I think

"slightly" is the word. If you look at the various elements of the deal

that was worked out with the Arab League, none them have been

achieved. The bloodshed hasn't stopped, the military haven't

completely withdrawn from the cities, few detainys have been

released. As for national dialogue, there -- detainees have have been

released, as for the national dialogue, there is a glim of that.

The options are limited. In the meantime, I have been out on the

streets with supporters and opponents of President Assad. First

I got rare access to a revolutionary stronghold near

Damascus In a working-class suburb of

Damascus, we are walking into the heart of the Syrian revolution.

Deep into a district the Government no longer controls.

It is dangerous. Two more protestors have just been shot dead

here. They are urging us on, delighted at the very rare

appearance of a foreign TV crew, desperate to get their'sage to the

outside world. -- message to the outside world.

TRANSLATION: All we want what everyone around the world wants,

freep dop, for that they are killing us. We don't -- freedom,

for that they are killing us. We don't just want democracy and

freedom, we want to hang the President. TRANSLATION: We are

being slaughtered, all we want is interle national protection, the

security forces are killing indiscim ately.

The people of Duma have been at the forefront of the uprising against

President Assad, no-one too young to risk death. They say they are

terrorised in their own homes by Government thugs and police.

TRANSLATION: They have no fear of God. They break into houses when

our husbands are naked. They are Assad's thieves, at the take away

everything, gold, money, even our food. TRANSLATION: We have to cover

our faces, because there are so many informants here, if they

discover one of us, they will arrest everyone in the family, even

the women, just to get us. funeral of two of the people who

were killed yesterday in demonstrations is beginning just

behind us now at the mosque. Quite often what has happened is people

have been killed at the funerals of people killed before. That is one

of the ways that the cyclele of violence here has continued for --

cycle of violence has continued here for ten months. Interest It is

violence, overwhelmingly from the state. The citizens are armed,

principally with spray cans, painting new anti-regime graffiti,

as fast as the authorities can blot it out. What would a free Duma be

like? It is a religiously conservative town. They reject

Government claims that a fall in the regime would imsuppose Islamic

values on a multiracial country. TRANSLATION: All the people are

together, all the sects and the religions. The Government says we

are sectarian to stop the revolution and scare people. Root

across Syria, the Government -- right across Syria, the Government

is fighting with propoganda as well as brute force. That is why it is

taking me, and other foreign journalists on a tour to Homs, a

city besieged by the milltry, and suffered most in the revolt --

military, and suffered the most in the revolt. There is no stopping on

the square where many were killed when security forces attacked an

opposition protest last spring. We are allowed out in a pro-Government

area. An angry crowd gathers to denounce

the fascist foreign media. It is the opposite of the welcome we

received in revolutionary Duma. Here there is no concern about pro-

democracy protests being crushed. They believe the uprising is an

attempt to wreck Syrian society. TRANSLATION: Is it democracy to

bomb people out of their home, to scare us, and our children. What

democracy are they talking about? We are her mainly members of the

Shi'ite sect, at that the President's family belongs to.

Since the uprising began, they say, they don't dare move outside their

own neighbourhoods. This is a city where the predictions of civil war

are already coming true. A city divided by barriers and frontlines,

into a patchwork of increasingly segregated areas.

There is no destruction here, as in opposition areas. Which are uingr

regularly shelled by the army. But -- which are regularly shelled by

the army. But Government forces say they are targeted by opposition

snipers if they move even a few streets away. TRANSLATION: In this

area, if you go on the street you are shot by a sniper, a rocket

President Yeltsin grenade or a mortar. We can't go to sleep, --

and rocket propelled grenade, we can't go to sleep or do anything. A

soldier has been taken in for treatment, one of thousand, say

doctors, are the victims of armed insurgents, their stories are hard

to prove. This soldier says he would happily shoot demonstrators,

but he says he's not allowed to. TRANSLATION: We have been given

orders not to shoot civilians, we can't shoot women and children,

that is why we are being targeted more than them. We can't shoot when

there are civilians around. That claim absurd. But some in Homs

seem to think that President Assad's not tough enough on the

uprising. We saw a rare portrait of him, together with his younger

brother, regarded as more hardline. The kind people we were taken 0

meet in Homs, don't represent a -- to meet in Homs, don't represent a

majority in the city, let alone Syria, they might be enough to hold

out for a majority to hold out against the international community.

How did the diplomatic allegiances stack up in the region? Just as the

conflict has taken on increasingly sectarian character, within Syria,

as we saw from Tim's piece there. It is also having an effect in the

broader region. There is the perception that the Sunni majority

in Syria being oppressed by the minorities, including President

Assad as plan. What it means -- President Assad's clan. What it

means is Iran is the principle country in the region and backs

Syria for a whole variety of power, politic qal and other reasons.

President Assad's clan looks to Iran for support as an embattled

minority. Consequently, increasingly, some of the other

countries in it the gulf are lining up against the Syrians. Seeking to

empower Arab League attempts to be more active within this situation.

We had Qatar a few days ago, the leader talking about sending combat

troops to protect the people. He wouldn't are done that without

backing from Saudi Arabia. We know the Saudis support the idea being

floated, and one or two other countries, including Jordan. They

form a block of countries favouring such action. How likely is it that

military intervention would come any time soon? It is not likely top

happen soon for a variety of reasons. This may be the beginning

of a consensus of building effort, led by Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

There are other Arab countries that don't agree with this. Algeria, for

example, quite sympathetic to the Bashar al-Assad regime in many ways,

Iraq, curiouslys enough, has been quite supportive, and abstained

from any criticism of the Bashar al-Assad regime, for all sorts of

reasons, the position with Iran being one of them. There are

countries, quite influential Arab countries, that might block an

attempt to do it through the Arab League. That organisation requires

unanimity Joining me from New York is Russia's ambassador to the UN,

Vitaly Churkin. Ban Ki-Moon, the UK secretary-

general says, really, now, the casualties are so bad, that it is

time now for the Security Council to of move to intensify all

sanctions against Syria, and Russia blocking this. Why? Well, first of

all, I don't think the secretary- general said that. It is, that of

course your report has been extremely disturbing, the crisis in

Syria has been allowed to deteriorate. What we believe needs

to be done now is that everybody should support the Arab League

monitoring commission, that confidence and trust should be

restored between the Arab League and Damascus, and efb who can

influence the process can -- everyone who can influence the

process can put the conflicting parties to the table. Only through

dialogue the violence canp stop. Would Russia like to see President

Assad go? Russia would like President Assad to intensify and

clarify his plans for reform, to stop violence on the part of the

Government. We call on the opposition not to resort to

violence, and to listen to what his people, the people of Syria want to

see in terms of political and economic reforms in the country.

Let's be clear, your best option, the option Russia would like, for

Assad to reform, but essentially Assad to stay? No, we would like

the Syrian people to decide this in peaceful ways. Through political

dialogue, and fair and democratic elections. Not through trying to

create a revolution or a situation of civil war in the country. That

would have dramatic consequences for the Syrians and neighbouring

countries. It it is not surprising that your correspondent, a cop of

minutes ago, spoke about the concerns -- a couple of minutes ago

spoke about the concerns of the Iraqi and the Lebanese sharing

similar concerns. A deterioration of the situation could have

dramatic consequences not just for Syria, but the region itself. Our

call is for the end of violence, whatever the source of the violence,

and a broad national dialogue. Reform through political prohe is.

We know, ambassador, that there has really been no let up to the

violence, the casualties are escalating as Ban Ki-Moon has said,

you out of step with France, Britain and the US on this. Why is

Russia sticking to its guns in support of President add sad, is it

because Russia sells arms to Syria? We are no -- President Assad, it

because Russia sells arms to Syria? First of all President add sad is

interest, it is a reality, he has broad support in the country.

support in the country? Broad support in the country, eventhough

there are protestors, there are people in the country supporting

him. He cannot be wished away. It is a political reality. If somebody

is going down the road of fanning a revolution and civil war in Syria,

we believe it is extremely dangerous. We believe the conflict

could have been stopped months ago, had everybody heeded the call for a

broad political dialogue. Isn't the problem, we have heard what Susan

Rice the US envoy to the UN has said, essentially one of the

problems Russia make as lot of money out of selling weapons to

Syria, and you still do? When I hear Americans talk about, against

selling weapons, it he reminds me of a cannibal advocating

vegetarianism. The United States one of the largest suppliers of

weapons into the Middle East. This is not the point at all. It may not

be the point, two wrongs don't make a right, I just want to clarify,

Russia still selling weapons to Syria? We may have a certain

contracts with the Syrian Government, I'm not sure what the

state of that is. This is not the important point there. The

important point is unfortunately, you know, the Security Council was

able to work together jointly in order to try to resolve things

politically in yes mam machine. I have heard people -- Yemen, I have

heard people call for in Bahrain a position of going in with the

authorities. From Syria the call from the outset was completely the

opposite. Do you accept that actually it would improve the

situation if Russia stopped selling weapons to Syria, whatever

contracts you have? It has no effect whatever contracts we have

with them. It has no effect on the situation at all. The situation has

been there. Let me of move on, the time is limited with you. Do you

agree that actually the Qatari proposal to send in troops, which

seems to certainly going to be discussed by the Arab League, would

you back that? I think it is an unhelp of statement, it is a

distraction and irritant. There are two main tasks now, to support the

Arab League monitoring mission, it is where we hud focus on, and

secondly, to re-- should focus on, and secondly to restore trust

between the Arab League and Damascus. This is fantasy talk of

Arab troops moving into Syria. I don't see many Arab countries

volunteering that, or Qatar trying to unvaid Syria. I don't see Saudi

Arabia sending their troops to Syria after sending troops to

Bahrain in support of the Government. Unstead of creating

such artificial irritants, let's focus on the need to stop violence

in Syria from wherever it comes, and supporting the monitoring

mission, and supporting further dialogue between Syria and the Arab

League. Briefly, is David Cameron wrong to call for another

resolution on Syria, that unhelpful of Britain and France? No, Russia

was the one who proposed the new draft several weeks ago in the

Security Council, in support of political prohe is, and then the

violence in it Sir -- processes, and then there was the violence in

Syria. So it is good that there are calls from other members of the

Security Council. The academy system in England,

started under the last Government, was designed to guarantee a decent

education for all who attend one. An investigation by Newsnight has

revealed that some academys are employing what is called the dark

arts, to rid themselves of underprfoerming pupils. Academys

permanently exclude far more pupils than state schools. This is a

different method of removal. The drive for league tables means some

of the most vulnerable pupils are being discarded, sometimes

unlawfully. This boy had been at an academy. It

should have powered him to a good education. However, he tarted to

get into trouble, not enough to be permanently excluded, but his

mother felt he had to leave and he was let down. My son felt

completely demoralised, it showed in his whole demeanor. He used to

love going to gymnastic, he lost interest in efg.

- gymnastics. He lost interest in everything. When asked why was he

behaving it way, he said nobody was helping him get back into school.

Is this an example of unofficial exclusion, a way to ease out those

pupils that won't help an academy shape up in the league tables.

cad moose are very, very high -- academys are very, very high stakes

institutions, the expectations of the FE and those in favour of the

academy scheme, must be that they are a success. The message the

academys are getting from wherever is you are in charge, you are in

authority, and then the dark arts a temation, isn't it. The 15-year-old,

we have agreed not to identify him, had been at a Harris Academy, one

of a cluster of schools sponsored by businessman, Lord Harris, and

given high marks by the Education Secretary, recently. Every single

one of the schools he takes over, gets an additional 20% or more

young people to pass five good GCSEs, compared to the record when

the local authority ran it. When the coalition came to power

there were 200 academys, now there are more than 500. Both

traditionlal, set up in deprived areas, and high-achieving schools

which have converted. Are the results which Mr Gove wants them to

achieve being produced, in part, at the expense of more vulnerable

pupils. The whole point of academy schools to improve the chances of

kids like this, to stop them joining, what Michael Gove calls,

an educational underclass. We have spoken to parents who found the

reality to be quite different. Their children have been forced out

of school, not officially, but through pressure and persuasion, a

practice which can be illegal. Our teenager was about to start

preparing for his GCSEs when trouble began. He had had a series

of temporary exclusions. In an e- mail from the Harris Academy,

Merton, his mother was told it might be better for him to have a

fresh start, and to consider applying to another school. The

only other option was alternative offsite provision, where her son

would have beenedcated away from the school, with other children

deemed not to fit in. All -- been educated away from the school with

other children deemed not to fit in. With the statistics of a permanent

exclusion, and you feel pressured into finding another school for

your child. In my case that is how they made me feel.

The Harris Academy Merton say they never unofficially exclude a pupil

This school in south London is run by the local education authority.

They are the ones who give us the money, although we pay tax.

schools, including the academys, are under pressure to bring down

permanent exclusions, and yet, every year pupils come here, who

have to leave academys, without being permanently excluded. Many of

them are seeking to move because of what I often call the dark arts.

They have been asked to of move rather than permanently excluded,

they have been ignored for a few months on study leave, or ignored

in a study support centre. Parents and children have eventually

decided this school isn't for me, they won't have me in the building,

they won't permanently exclude me, they won't do anything, despite my

requests, I are go and look for another school.

This barrister fights cases for parents who think their children

have been unfairly treated. Academys are masters of their own

budgets and curriculum, but Darid Wolfe thinks this very independent

is behind the growing number of cases he's seeing. The freedoms

they have got and they think they have got, which goes beyond what

they have actually got, means whatever they are doing for the

majority of children in their establishment of children, there is

a small group being disadvantaged or squeezed out. Maybe they are

paying the price of the benefits for the other children.

department for education says academys must follow the same law

and guidance on exclusions as all schools. But David Wolfe says the

cases he's dealing with suggest that isn't happening. There are two

groups that I see, children just starting out in primary schools,

but the number merically larger group are typically 14-15-year-old

boys, going into near nine or ten, just starting their GCSE, very

aufpb black, or disabled with special he had Kay -- often black,

or disabled with special educational needs, not exclusively

so. This is Chloe, testing her Christmas present. The 15-year-old

had been in an academy if Lincolnshire. Even her mum accepts

she was a tricky pupil. What sort of things were you

getting into trouble for? It Smoking, being on my phone.

Disrupting classes, houting out, making silly -- shouting out,

making silly remarks. Trying to get everyone to laugh at her. Were you

aware of a problem? Yeah, because she got stated -- stated -- stated.

To staves statement -- so she had a statement, and then after an

incident with a teacher she was excluded. She tried to take it off

me and I stuck it down my bra, she asked me to leave and I said no,

she took my phone and started shouted me in the face when she

took it out of my hand so I pushed her out of my face. Did you push

her hard? Not that hard. She was sent off to another site, she

didn't like it. It was all boys things, welding, carpentry, motor

mechanics, I didn't want to do that. This is the last refuge for

children who don't get on with mainstream education. After a whole

term at home, Chloe spent a month here at a privately of-run

alternative provision. -- privately-run alternative

provision. For some kids, Chloe included, places like this are too

alternative. She wanted to resit an English GCSE, to try to get a

better grade, but she couldn't. Because GCSEs aren't actually

taught here. Clearly it is a no-swearing zone

for the meal, end story, I think we have some young ladies doing the

waitressing. The morning drill is led by ex-army officer Chris Jones,

he set up Build A Future to reengage teenagers, turned off by

school. That's it from me, have a good morning, guys, crack on.

It is certainly not an alternative to school. I personally believe the

way forward is for a young person not to be excluded but to have a

bit of this as part of their education, as well as what goes on

in school. It it is very important for them to carry on with their

GCSEs. We don't offer that, we do alternatives to that.

Across England, alternative provisions do their best for pupils

permanently or temporarily excluded. Eventhough permanent exclusions are

going down, the number of children being educated at alternative

provisions going up. The concern that such places are being used as

dumping grounds. The system driven by league table,

driven by A*-C grades, add academys the stakes are higher, the costs of

setting up academys are enormous, getting them established, sometimes

against local opposition has required big promises about results.

English and maths are the key exams which schools are judged by, the

pressure to secure the best GCSE grades great, leaving less room for

pupils, less likely to get them. But there is no data for the

unofficial stuff, the nudging, the forcing out of pupils. So we have

collected some figures which suggest something unusual might be

happening. We found that compared to local

authority schools, academys are entering a smaller number of pupils

for the key GCSEs, maths and English. Our figures were obtained

from the Department of Education and applied to England. In 2010,

3.5% of pupils in academys did not sit English and maths GCSEs,

compared to 2% for all other schools.

In a fifth of academys, 5% of pupils didn't sit English and maths.

Double the proportion of any other schools. In nearly a tenth of

academys, 10% of pupils didn't sit English and maths, it is a more

than trip the proportion of any other schools.

The Department for Education says these figures relate only to

previously failing schools with challenging intakes. Some students,

however hard they try, will nef get a C grade. No matter how well --

never get a C grade, no matter how well they are taught. It it is part

of the rich tapestry of human variation. For those students,

getting any level of expertise and ability in English and maths

enormously important. Chloe was taken off the role of the

academy without being permanently excluded, it means none her grades

are affect its league table results. Now at a new alternative provision,

she knows she will leave at 16 without improving her academic

qualifications. Basically I'm going to be thick all my life and not

have anything. That what you think? Yeah. What do you think, Donna

think they hud let her do GCSEs, surely there is some stuttor --

tutor some where who can help her through it. It doesn't just matter

to people like Chloe, but to all of us. Figures from the Ministry of

Justice show that more than a third of those convicted of involvement

in last year's riots had been excluded from school.

It's an irony that a number of them will have been turf ofed out of

academys, schools at that were meant to lift tardz for all pupils,

whatever -- standards for all pupils, whatever their abilities,

schools, in other words, that were set up to help them succeed. We did

ask for an interview with the Education Secretary, or any

education or schools minister, but no-one was available.

I'm a joined by the head teach of an axe cad me in Essex, and -- axe

cad me in Essex, and someone -- academy in Essex.

Already disadvantaged children are being disadvantaged further by the

actions the academys are taking? The focus on academys doesn't make

sense. We only convrt today academy. I don't agree with exclues, I don't

agree with where it ends up leading to. The focus on academy doesn't

make sense. As educators we have a moral purpose, head of an academy,

I have the same moral purpose. know in terms of formal exclusions

interest are more at academys, by theed of our film this back door

exclusion is taking place. There is a barrister dedicated to helping

parents deal with this. It is a more insidious form of exclusion

because the parents themselves may be vulnerable? You haven't taken

account of where the academys were situated. Academys mark one are in

it disadvantaged areas so there is more issues there. You will get

more unofficial exclusions in disadvantaged areas where a lot of

them are. By the evidence of the figures we have been using have

been in the past failing, it goes on? Clearly, it would be a mistake

to see that as a bad thing, necessarily. What you moon by that

is -- what I mean by that is boundaries are good for children,

it is good to have rules and ringlaigss for children to follow -

- regulations for children to follow at school. When heads have

to exclude a child, they are not doing it, rubbing their hands

together, and having a good time. It it is very sad moment. It takes

years to exclude a chide. unofficial exclusions we are

talking about here, parents who are asked perhaps it would be better if

your child attended another school, do you approve of that? The reason

why because the head trying to save that child. The head trying to do

right by that child. If he exclude the child, then, in a way, he

ruining that child's life chances. Why as if he gives that child an

opportunity to go to another school or alternative provision,

...Interesting You say that, formal exclusion ruins a child's chances

you say, you don't agree with that? As ahood once responsible for the

whole school. What is -- as a head, one is responsible for the whole

school. What is concerning about that film, none of the other pupils

are interviewed. One has to think about the pupils, there is peer

pressure for pupils to misbehave. Academys were et up because there

needed another solution, particularly in disadvantaged areas.

Do you recognise that some schools are under huge pressure for results,

and won't put forward pupils for GCSEs in English and maths,

necessarily, if they think it is a good chance they will fail. Look at

the statistics as far as academys goes, they are sending fewer

children for GCSEs in England? not being entered doesn't mean they

don't count in your figures. Just because they are not entered

doesn't mean they don't count. They do. As of tomorrow, he have child

in year 11 will count towards the final figures, whatever they decide

to do, they count in the figures. In my town I work with a fantastic

group of secondary schools, if I get to theped of a line with a

young person, they are damage -- the end of the line with a young

person, they are damaging their own chances and others chance, I will

get on the phone to another head and say they need a fresh start,

can you do that, what can you do in reply. Labelling them as

permanently excluded limits their life chances, not ruining, but

limiting them. You would rather unofficial exclusion? It is not, it

is giving an alternative chance to succeed. Would you say that any

academy that formally exclude a child has failed? That is

essentially what you are saying? personally would think I have

failed. Would you think any academy that exclude a child has failed?

don't think so, sometimes, unfortunately that can be a

consequence. But it is important to have that consequence as to that

behaviour. There is huge pressure for academys to do well, lots money

to set up, huge pressure for the headteacher to deliver. You might

say it is in the baseline figure, but it looks better for a school if

there are more students passing GCSEs in maths and English?

refuse to believe that a head teacher would exclude a pupil in

order to get better results. Head teachers, after years of working

with a chide, with all sorts of pastoral -- a child, with all sorts

of pastoral support, with a child stealing things, abusing pupils,

assaulting members of staff. In the end a decision has to be made to

permanently exclude them sometimes, that is in order to provide a

secure and safe environment for other children at the school.

Presumably you have turned your school in it into an axe cad me.

Let as put it the other -- academy, let's put it the other way, if you

have to put them unofficially into offsite profession, you would

regard that as failing? Yes. you wouldn't do it? Of course I

would. I have some students offsite and on site, because I'm not

willing to label a young person as permanently excluded unless I have

exhausted everything I can posably. That includes is there -- possibly

do, that includes an alternative place for them to be. Maybe we

hacked phones, maybe we didn't. The editor of the Mirror and the sister

title, the Sunday Mirror, both told the Leveson Inquiry today, it was

possible that illegal hacking did take place in the tabloids in the

early 2000s, if it did, neither one any knowledge of it. Then the chief

executives of the newspaper Trinity Mirror, insisted there was no phone

hacks at the titles, eventhough there were no inquiries. She

attacked the Newsnight investigation that said it did go

on at thep pap, but the paper never complained to Newsnight at the time

or since. How did this whole business about the last July

hacking story from Newsnight come up? It was extraordinary, we were

accused of terrible journalism for our piece last July, when we

revealed conversations, detailed conversations with former Trinity

Mirror journalist, a Sunday Mirror journalist, despite they have

admitted not regting the allegations after we made --

investigating the allegations after we made them. To remind you what we

said in July, we two very well placed sources who had direct

experience of what was going on. One aid that tapes of conversations

of Liz Hurley's messages were actually -- one said that tapes of

conversations of Liz Hurley's messages were played out. They

witnessed that. The others was default PIN codes among certain

journalists, an aid to hacking. One of these two sources described the

process by which hacking would take place. It was a standard process.

Two journalists would simultaneously phone up a target.

One would get theen gaugeed signal, at that would allow the PIN codes

to be tapped in, voice messages would be accessed on that bay is.

We heard allegations that medical records of Leslie Ash were blagged.

Do you think Trinity Mirror are allowing wriggle room on this?

did deny it strongly before, and said all journalists work within

the code, but notice the present tense back then. Another partial

denial today. Headlines, Sunday Mirror phone hacking claim revealed

by Newsnight, evidence of phone hacking at the Sunday Mirror

newspaper has been found by the BBC's programme, Newsnight, its an

Eamonn news source, do you know whether or not that -- it is an

anonymous source, do you know whether or not that is true?

don't believe it to be true. Does it follow from your choice of words

that this is not the matter of an investigation? No it hasn't.

seems no mam tar row points are being argued, om would say, --

narrow -- some narrow points are being argued. Piers Morgan several

years ago admitted to listening to a tape recording by Sir Paul

McCartney left on Heather Mills phone. Today we had had another

partial denial at the inquiry. would like to ask you, as position

of editor, iting with that team, at that time, -- sitting with that

team, at that time. Is it true there was phone hacking going on

among the showbiz team? Not to my knowledge. You say not to your

knowledge, can I take it that it could have been going on and hidden

from you? It might have been. sense are you getting from Leveson?

Taking a step back, the key messages are focusing on the

possible outcomes. The status quo not accept be. The other

possibility is statutory -- acceptable. The other possibility

statutory legislation, highly unlikely. I think it will end up

with a beefed up version of the PCC and real teeth.

I'm' joined by the Editor of the Independent, and the media Editor

of the Guardian who has been there week in week out. Your life's work!

We have been through all the big stars, the fame, the JK Rowling,cy

enthat Mill and Piers Morgan. Now you get a -- Sienna Miller and

Piers Morgan. Now do you get a sense of the thing, there a digging

in? He has come back more serious. He started to getterous about the

end game. What ot of thing will he recommend -- to get serious about

the end game, what sort of thing he will recommend. That is in his mind,

as opposed to the barristers, they are digging into do they hack or

not. But when the judge gets involved, he will have to write the

support report. He asking about -- the report. He's asking about what

sort of body will replace the PCC. Going down that road. You yourself

gave evidence, what was it like, was it low-key or did you feel

under pressure? You feel under pressure, because it is a court of

law. It it is strange, it is a court of law. There are barristers,

they are not wearing wigs or anything. It is a court, he is a

judge, a top judge. You put your hand on the Bible, and you swear

the oath and all that. It feels like a court. The odd thing about

that when you normally give evidence in a court, you reach a

verdict, guilty or not guilty. And in this case, you think he's

already reached the remember direct. I think he thinks we're all guilty.

-- The verdict. I think he thinks we are all guilty. Do you think

that? I don't think it is that, but I think it is the nature of an

inquiry to foblg cuss on the negative rather than the positive -

- focus on the negative rather than the positive, as soon as an editor

talk about how great a newspaper is, people switch off. There is the

McCann problem, he was taken principally by the evidence of Kate

and Gerry McCann, he wants a form of redress for ordinary people

whose lives are turned upside down by the papers. How does he deal

with an owner staying out of the system. We have obviously focused a

lot on hacking, but on the thicks as well, what is ethical, that is a

wider issue. It is maybe not such a starry issue? He keeps stressing,

time and again, it is not just about hacking. It keeps um coming

back to this. He's also trying to find a form of redress for ordinary

people, not celeb tee, who have a grievance with the press. The other

-- celebrities. Who have a grievance with the press. He has to

find a way of bringing Richard Desmond's papers in it, they are

outside the PCC, he has to find a formula to bring them in. Do you

have a sense that he is the judge and so forth, do you get a sense he

understands the pressures, this is not an exclues, but understands the

pressures of putting together a newspaper? Pts at times he does, a

lot of times he doesn't. The pace, if you work on a newspaper, as I

and Chris do, it is just the pace of decision of-making incredibly

fast. And if you are doing broadcasts? You of to do things

incredibly instinctively, making split of-second decisions, and

thinking whether will the competition do. He feels like we

hud pend days deciding -- should spend says deciding to publish a

story and unvaiding someone's privacy. Thep pap has to turn a

shilling? -- the paper has to turn a shilling? I think he thinks we

Saul stand around fill loss fiesing. A lot of what we do very quick and

intuitive. What he would say, if he cut you open, like a piece of rock,

it should, you hud at your core be ethical? -- you should, at your

core, be ethical, do you think there is a whole credo at that has

to be followed by all journalists? Yes, but if you ask me. How are you

going to do it? If ask me if I'm ethical, of course you will say,

yes, of course I am. Would you find telling me something I didn't know

bf. At least he has looked at d before. At least he has looked at

on official the hard cases. question before we have thought

about what exactly would replace the P cfpl C, you think there is a

level -- PCC, you think there is a level of self-censorship on the

tabloids? I think they are tamer. Duller? Yes, if you go through the

Sunday papers, you certainly notice it. One glaring example, the sad

death of Garyp Speed, I think in the past, the tabloids would have

been all over that. I mean, the mysterious death of a top football.

They all left it alone, pretty much much. I think that was a turning

point. Do you agree? I think Chris touched on something, I'm not sure

Britain a worse place for it. Interest will be an inquest into

the death, 0 interest will be some kind of proper prohe is, interest

ought to be to allow -- process, he ought to be allowed to do that.

That's all from Newsnight tonight. Gavin will be here tomorrow, do

join him. Good night from all of us Another cold night out there. A

widespread frost forming, exept in parts of Northern Ireland and

Scotland, where temperatures are rise above freezing. Tomorrow

turning cloud and rain spilling in. Clouding across Wales and North

West England for north-east England sparkling unshine before the

morning mist and fog has cleared away. For East Anglia a chilly day.

Up hien turning hazy by -- sunshine turning hazy by day. Drizzleley

rain, turning damp around the west coast of Wales. Further east a dry,

bright day, clouding over. Much more cloud across Northern Ireland,

a dull, damp, morning, the afternoon seeing skies brightening.

A milder day too, damp weather pushing into out west Scotland,

north-east Scotland stays fine and sunny once more. More significant

changes of the next few days, most places look -- over the feck few

days, most places -- over the next Brighter skies across northern