18/01/2012 Newsnight


18/01/2012

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Gootd good evening, British planes helped secure the skies above Libya

:00:10.:00:15.

in the overthrow of Colonel Gaddafi. Were British forces deployed on the

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ground as well. The air war we know about, but tonight we piece

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together the cland desTyne missions of some of the country's most

:00:25.:00:28.

secret soldiers. Our investigation reveals Britain

:00:28.:00:32.

did have boots on the ground in Libya, with details of who they

:00:32.:00:35.

were and what role they were meant to play.

:00:35.:00:41.

The Conservative MP, Rory Stewart, and a writer are here to discuss.

:00:41.:00:45.

This man tells us how British Secret Service agents came to call

:00:45.:00:50.

on him while he was being held in one of Colonel Gaddafi's prisons.

:00:50.:00:54.

Why, please explain to our tax- payers, should we pay a single

:00:54.:00:58.

penny to clear up the mess left by Silvio Berlusconi?

:00:58.:01:02.

Our economics editor ask the Italian President the question on

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the nation's lips. And does the well being of a bunch

:01:07.:01:11.

of birds justify beginning the Mayor of London's pet project, of a

:01:11.:01:15.

new airport. This is where Boris wants to put

:01:15.:01:18.

his island. But is this really about building a new hub airport

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for the south-east of England, or building up the mayor's chances of

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:01:33.:01:34.

being re-elected? The British involvement in the

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campaign to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi was a very public one, or

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rather part of it. The use of RAF aircraft was very public. The

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fighting on the ground was said to have been done by Libyans. But

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Newsnight has learned that British soldiers were on the ground in

:01:50.:01:59.

Libya, alongside the anti-Gaddafi forces. Our defence editor reports.

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Britain's secret war in Libya evolved in fits and starts. But its

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architects believe it helped finally to tip the balance in

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favour of the Libyan revolutionaries, enabling them to

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seize the country and capture Gaddafi.

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Colonel Gaddafi said he would hunt you down like rats, but you showed

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the courage of loins wae, slut your courage.

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-- And we salute your courage. success, we learned, did involve

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deploying the SAS on the ground to help. But the tale of how they got

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there wasn't simple. The Libyan revolution started in

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February last year. Very quickly the Libyan Armed Forces split, and

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the leading rebels set themselves up in Benghazi.

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The British Government soon decided to send a rescue mission to the

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desert of southern Libya. It involved RAF Hercules aircraft, and

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a dozen marines of the sea squadron Special Boat Service. Ministry of

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Defence showed the mission, but not the commandos there to secure it.

:03:16.:03:21.

On the 27th of February, they founted three flights to take 150 -

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- mounted three flights to take 150 foreign oil workers, 20 British,

:03:27.:03:32.

from southern Libya to Malta. we got on to the plane there was

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two locals attacked the plane with large knives and machetes to try to

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rip the tyres. The special forces challenged them told them to stop,

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and fortunately somebody tackled them, brought the guys down and

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took them back. In the footage of the taxiing

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Hercules in halt at that, a clue appeared to the next phase of the

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operation. A special forces Chinook helicopter awaiting its mission.

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For in the chaos engulfing Libya, the Government decided to back the

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National Transitional Council, or NTC, and work for the overthrow of

:04:09.:04:17.

Gaddafi. There speaker, it is clear this is an illegitimate regime,

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that has lost the consent of its people. Our message to Colonel

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Gaddafi is simple, go now. The next phase of the operation involved a

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highly sensitive unit of British special forces, made up jointly of

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the SAS, and SBS, it is called E Squadron, and operates closely with

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MI6. Early in March six members of E Squadron boarded a Chinook

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helicopter, with two MI6 officers and flew to a place near Benghazi.

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They were going to meet rebel leaders. Why do it that way when

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there was a British friget in a harbour nearby. Apparently MI6

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wanted to avoid going near any British symbol of power. But the

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mission turned into a fiasco reported worldwide. A British

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diplomatic team detained by rebels in Libya has been released. Despite

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carrying everything needed for a covert mission, from civilian

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clothes to a variety of passports, the British had been nabd by armed

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local farmers. E Squadron had become unstuck almost immediately

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the British ambassador was left to plead with the NTC to release them.

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I hope to ask Mr Jalil if he might be able to intervene to help us

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clear up this misunderstanding, if there is anything we can do to help

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explain who they are and what they were doing. After this public

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embarrassment, British special forces were closed out of the

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picture for months, we have been told. But the visible commitment of

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planes and ships was growing. A couple of weeks later, France, the

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US and Britain started bombing Gaddafi's forces. And the stakes

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were raised again for the Cameron Government.

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It was time to send a properly accredited team to Benghazi to

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liaise with the NTC. By April, half-a-dozen army officers in plain

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clothes and intelligence people, were actively working in Benghazi

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to build capacity. An embryo defence ministry and a command

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structure. They operated in Benghazi, Misrata and near breing

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ga. But they were unarmed, and -- Breg a, but they were unarmed, and

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their main aim was getting Libyan units working to some sort of plan,

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and save them from being hit by accident by NATO.

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That happened a couple of times and we filmed these NTC units marking

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their vehicles with identification symbols, as a response.

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The poor record of these men led British liaison officers in

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Benghazi to argue for people able to raise their performance.

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The UN resolution that authorised NATO bombing specifically pro-hib

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bitted ground troops anywhere in -- prohibited ground troops anywhere

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in Libya. What about ground troops and special forces. We have learned

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that the National Security Council, shortly after the bombing started,

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tasked military chiefs to look at the feasiblilty of a train and

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equiff mission to the Libyan rebels. Publicly, meanwhile, ministers

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shyed away from talk of boots on the ground. This is not British

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ground combat forces going in. That's what the people mean by

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boots on the ground. We are very clear about the United Nations

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resolutions. They forbid any foreign occupation of any part of

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Libya, we will absolutely stick to that. The road to sending British

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special forces back into Libya lay via Qatar. The emrate had taken a

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strong stance against Gaddafi from the outset. Visits from British and

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French military chiefs, led to a joint mission being established.

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Special forces from all three countries would be sent to Libya,

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to assist with training as well as co-ordinating their command, and

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NATO air strikes. The French would go to the west, the British to the

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east. By August 20 men from D- squadron were rating in small teams

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in places like Breg a and Misrata, as well as training base in

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southern Libya. The air strikes had gone on for months, many had

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predicted doing it from the skies alone might not work. It has become

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a much more difficult fight, much more difficult targets. As I have

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observed in recent days, essentially it is very much

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stalemate-like in the vicinity of Brega. Within days of the new teams

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moving into action, the NTC was fighting its way into Tripoli,

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assistance from Qatar and France seems to have been particularly

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important here. But the Misrata units being helped by the British,

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were soon forcing their way into Gaddafi's home town of Sirte. At

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this point the British would not give weapons, but it did help the

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Libyans with radios and other equipment to co-ordinate air

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strikes. France and Qatar did send weapons, including, we have been

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told, Milan anti-tank missiles like these. As the revolutionaries

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fought into Sirte, NATO air strikes were pivitol, they were co-

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ordinated by the British, including men on the ground. Were they

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involved in the final drama as Muammar Gaddafi was taken and then

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killed by the NTC? That's a subject that everyone

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remains tight-lipped about. Though they do say that within weeks of

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Gaddafi's death, the special forces' presence was being wound

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down. The architects of the joint UK-French-Qatar operation insist it

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graves coherence, organisation and drive to the revolutionary ground

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forces. Integrating the Qataris and Jordanians in the operation was

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also vital. Without them and their defence chiefs' leadership,

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especially the huge understanding they brought to the campaign, it is

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unlikely that the NTC's militias could have successfully acted as

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the land element, without which the right outcome would have been

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possible. The role of special fores and MI6 in this process is still

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not publicly -- forces and MI6 in the process is still not public

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knowledge. It extended the British involvement in the Libyan struggle,

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to a greater degree than Government statements had suggested. In a

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moment two people who spent some time in the Newsnight studio during

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the Libyan war and in Libya during and after, the Conservative MP,

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Rory Stewart and the writer and journalist, Nabila Ramdani. First,

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Mark Urban is here, this is significantly different from what

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we were told? William Hague was talking in the conflict about the

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UK's desire to stay within the terms of res Luis. This is

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something that exercise -- resolution. This is something that

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exercised Whitehall for months. Lawyers from various departments

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were sceptical it could be done. Eventually it was done. Finally the

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troops that went in, the two dozen from the SAS from August on wards

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were armed. Where as the earlier missions the mentoring, consultants,

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went in plain clothes, unarmed. significant a contribution was it?

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Well, it is easy to argue this both ways. A lot of people would say

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that even after the fall of Tripoli, and even Sirte, that those gangs of

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men in their pick-up trucks and heavy machine guns and the rest of

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it, were a wild, unco-ordinated and indisciplined lot. However, they

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had achieved their objective, it was important, I think, for the

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countries that backed them, that, if you like, they wanted to bank

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some of the political influence that came from helping them achieve

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their objective, the qar tar defence force chief claimed --

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quart tar defence force chief claims hundreds of Qataris were

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involved. The French want it known that they armed. The British hoped

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by being involved in that way they would buy influence in that new

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Libya. Do you think they want it made public? I can't say that is

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what the Government wants. Rory Stewart and Nabila Ramdani, to what

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extent do you think the revolution is tainted by this sort of

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discovery? It is absolutely tainted by this sort of discovery. I think

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Mark's report is fascinating, but sadly, not in the least bit

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surprising. What the discussion should be all about is not so much

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military intervention, but illegal military intervention. The use of

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British special forces in Libya shows that the British completely

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ignored the United Nations resolution 1973. In many ways. Not

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just by sending special forces on the ground. But the resolution was

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breached by sending arms to the rebels, by training them, by

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equipping them with communications, and crucially, the breach of 1973

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also resulted in Libyans dying on a daily basis.

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Rory Stewart, do you think there was a breach of the UN resolution

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in this? I don't believe it is a breach of the resolution. The

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resolution is about occupation forces on the ground, not small

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covert operations. It says no force of occupation? I disagree. What

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1973 absolutely does not authorise is elite foreign troops from a

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western democracy, interfering in the internal affairs of an

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sovereign Arab country. Let's not forget that. Remember that

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thousands of people died in Libya in spite of western intervention.

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So the Libyan conflict was all about ousting an Arab regime which

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had fallen out with the west, just a few years after dealing with the

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west over everything from oil. don't think he was a tyrant?

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course he was a tyrant. Fine. it is not up to elite troops from a

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western democracy to oust him. you were in favour of the air

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campaign? I was in favour of military intervention, when it was

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abundantly clear Gaddafi was threatening a bloodbath in Benghazi.

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What I was disagreeing with was the form and shape of the military

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intervention. I'm all for legal intervention, when it is fair and

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transparent, but illegal intervention is something that is

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morally wrong. I think the other thing, to put it in proportion,

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this is a very small intervention, you are talking about 20 people.

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doesn't matter how small, we were misled about it. Public claims were

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made that there were not British soldiers there, and there were?

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Foreign Secretary is very clear, he said when boots on the ground are

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talked about,'s talking about large forces. Britain has intelligence

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agencies, we have special forces, we did, as we know, in Afghanistan,

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and on a small scale in Lybia, and in a very cautious way. Unarmed

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initially, very few people, no arming of the rebels. That is

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perfectly within the resolution. arming of the rebels. The British

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didn't. That was left to the French and Qataris. They were part of the

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NATO coalition, they are responsible. We are not responsible

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for France. For breaches of a fundamental UN revolution. We are

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not responsible for France or Qatar. You are, I think UN resolutions are

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designed for a specific purpose, to intervene when there is a specific

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threat in real time. That was the case in Benghazi. What it doesn't

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authorise is to settle scores with an Arab tyrant which had fallen out

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with the west. What is all this talk about settling scores? Let me

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be clear, Britain was, one day Britain was serving Gaddafi's

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enemies on a plate for torture, and the case of Belhadj. We will talk

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about that in a moment or two, we will be talking to him. But

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settling of scores, you said? saying one day Britain was serving

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Gaddafi's enemies on a plate to him for torture, and the next day it is

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using its finest elite troops to support them and lead them to

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victory. Do you agree it did at least change

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the nature of the conflict. Clearly, once embarked upon, it was

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unconceivable that Britain, France and those who supported them would

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allow it to have anything other than the outcome they sought?

:17:01.:17:06.

it is very important to see the context there. Bribe should be

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congratulated for showing restraint, not arming the rebels, not going

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beyond of the terms of the resolution, it is hard to do. It

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was successful because we didn't get carried away. One of the ways I

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question Mark's report, there is suggestions that the military felt

:17:19.:17:25.

their hands were tied too much. In this case it is correct to tie the

:17:25.:17:30.

military's hands. Vietnam started with a few advisers, and ended up

:17:30.:17:35.

with 500 though troops -- 500,000 troops, it was right we restrained

:17:35.:17:41.

it. Any support would have been fine provided it wasn't too overt

:17:41.:17:45.

or expensive? It is fine if it is within the terms of the resolution,

:17:45.:17:49.

not committing atrocities, and in the end we have the Libyan support,

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we got the balance right. Doesn't transparency matter? Enormously,

:17:56.:17:59.

but I also think a nation should have a Secret Service, special

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fores and isn't obliged to reveal on television everything it is

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doing all the time. I don't think Britain would benefit from doing

:18:07.:18:10.

that. Let me ask you this, do you think the outcome in the end

:18:10.:18:15.

justified the means? Not at all. It is far too simplistic. You would

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rather Gaddafi were there? Not at all, it was very important to

:18:19.:18:23.

intervene militarily, to stop the fear of a bloodbath in Benghazi.

:18:23.:18:27.

Once it was achieved, it was morally wrong to take sides in a

:18:27.:18:31.

civil war, to lead a faction of the Libyan population to victory.

:18:31.:18:36.

take up that point you raised a moment or two ago. The inquiry,

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supposed to discover whether people working for the British Government,

:18:40.:18:44.

might have colluded in torture might have been abandoned, or the

:18:44.:18:47.

judge supposed to be carrying it out put it, it is not practical for

:18:47.:18:51.

the inquiry to continue right now. The lawyers and civil liberties

:18:51.:18:54.

activists representing the alleged victims are delighted, they said

:18:55.:18:58.

the inquiry was inadequate from the start. The police investigations,

:18:58.:19:02.

meanwhile, are continuing, into two cases, including that of Abdel

:19:02.:19:07.

Hakim Belhadj. The Libyan commander who took Tripoli, but who spent six

:19:07.:19:11.

years in Colonel Gaddafi's prisons, after, he claims, the British

:19:11.:19:15.

helped capture him. Earlier I spoke to him in Tripoli and started by

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asking him what he would like the British Government to do now.

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TRANSLATION: First of all, we wanted the British Government to

:19:26.:19:32.

apologise for what it did against us. And for the injustice against

:19:32.:19:38.

us, and the mistakes made against us. Especially from the British

:19:38.:19:46.

Intelligence Services. To apologise for the hidious crimes committed

:19:46.:19:52.

against us. And now the case is taking its course, and we would

:19:52.:19:59.

like those behind this crime to be brought to justice and put on trial.

:19:59.:20:03.

Can you be certain that the British people you saw when you were in

:20:03.:20:10.

prison, knew you were being tortured? TRANSLATION: The document

:20:10.:20:15.

found at the Intelligence Service headquarters clearly points to the

:20:15.:20:23.

implications of the British Intelligence Services. Those were

:20:23.:20:27.

unjust people, they didn't respect human rights. What has been

:20:27.:20:32.

revealed, and the documents clearly indicate the impli cakess of those

:20:32.:20:41.

people. It exposes their actions, the crimes against myself and my

:20:41.:20:47.

family. When you were being held in Libya under Colonel Gaddafi, did

:20:47.:20:57.
:20:57.:20:57.

any British people come to see you? TRANSLATION: It was a year-and-a-

:20:57.:21:01.

half before I saw someone. people who came to see you, men or

:21:01.:21:06.

women, what age were they? TRANSLATION: As far as I can

:21:06.:21:16.
:21:16.:21:16.

remember the team was led by a lady. She was accompanied by a man in his

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50s. The two members from the British Intelligence Services came

:21:20.:21:29.

to see me. Did you tell them you were being tortured? The room was

:21:29.:21:36.

monitored, they eves dropped on our conversation. However, I gave them

:21:36.:21:39.

the message that I was being tortured. They understood the

:21:39.:21:49.

message. I clearly understood the message I was trying to give to

:21:49.:21:55.

them. I was mistreated, I was psychalogically tortured. They gave

:21:55.:22:05.

me signs that they goat the message. Were you physically tortured?

:22:05.:22:12.

I was held was not fit for a human being. It was a sell, I was

:22:12.:22:17.

deprived of daylight for a year- and-a-half. I couldn't see the sun.

:22:17.:22:22.

I couldn't bathe. I couldn't have a shower. That carried on for over

:22:22.:22:28.

two years, for two whole years. My wife was ill-streeted as well.

:22:28.:22:32.

She's still suffering -- ill- treated as well, she's still

:22:32.:22:37.

suffering psychological problems. Unfortunately the Libyan and

:22:37.:22:40.

British Intelligence Services contributed towards this. Have the

:22:40.:22:44.

British police been to talk to you in Libya since your country was

:22:44.:22:53.

liberated? TRANSLATION: No, I have not met any British, any British

:22:53.:22:56.

police personnel. Would you be willing to come to the UK to give

:22:56.:23:01.

evidence? This matter is in the hands of my legal team, we are

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discussing it, with regard to the location. I'm leaving this in the

:23:07.:23:11.

hands of my legal team. After what happened to you, how do you feel

:23:11.:23:18.

about Britain? First of all, regarding the British people, I hab

:23:18.:23:23.

bour no ill feeling towards these people -- harbour no ill feeling

:23:23.:23:27.

towards these people. Because relations between the people last.

:23:27.:23:33.

I harbour ill feeling towards those implicated in my ill treatment, in

:23:33.:23:38.

my suffering, in my operation. Those who contributed towards this

:23:38.:23:43.

act, years of suffering and the treatment of my wife that was

:23:43.:23:49.

pregnant at the time. Those people who harmed me also harmed their

:23:49.:23:52.

people. I hope that relations between our two countries will

:23:52.:23:57.

improve, will be consolidated and will be based on mutual interest

:23:57.:24:03.

and mutual trust. I harbour no hatred and all I hope for is that

:24:03.:24:13.
:24:13.:24:16.

justice will take its course and the law will prevail. Mark Rory

:24:16.:24:20.

Stewart and Nabila Ramdani are still with us. These are murky

:24:20.:24:24.

waters? They are, the case underlines the danger to Britain to

:24:24.:24:29.

its reputation international, to its Secret Services, all of rest of

:24:29.:24:39.
:24:39.:24:39.

it. Of these extraordinary changes, these advertise of - the forces

:24:39.:24:44.

were -- after 9/11 they became enemies, according to his

:24:44.:24:49.

allegations the UK helped Gaddafi get his hands on Mr Belhadj. Now we

:24:49.:24:54.

find the situation...Even According to documents unearthed in Libya.

:24:54.:25:00.

The British said as much? They aimed to cliem claim credit for

:25:00.:25:03.

doing so. Now we have another situation, that is a danger with

:25:03.:25:07.

backing the NTC, in way we have. If there is a further change in

:25:07.:25:11.

direction, or the country descends into lawlessness, once again, the

:25:11.:25:16.

UK could be held responsible for that. How embarrassing do you think

:25:16.:25:24.

the revelations are? Hugely, it brings into sharp focus the extra

:25:24.:25:28.

ordinary hypocritical and ambiguous Britain had with libia. Meanwhile

:25:28.:25:33.

the intervention in Libya was wrapped in positive PR, we were

:25:33.:25:38.

sold the military intervention as if they were offering humanitarian

:25:38.:25:43.

reasons, and for the promotion of human rights. That is very cynical.

:25:43.:25:46.

You wouldn't dissent from the fact it is highly embarrassing, would

:25:46.:25:51.

you? If these allegations are true it is worse than that. It is

:25:51.:25:55.

disgraceful. It illustrate that is our whole policy was short-term,

:25:55.:26:03.

chaotic, ethically questionable, over a period of nearly 20 years.

:26:03.:26:08.

Earlier you were saying it is right every nation has Secret Service and

:26:08.:26:11.

special forces and everything not disclosed on television, this is

:26:11.:26:16.

what happens? If you have a Secret Service, you have to watch them

:26:16.:26:19.

very carefully, and special forces, it is not a license to do whatever

:26:19.:26:23.

you want. The ethical rules need to be clear. Why are you shake your

:26:23.:26:30.

head? I want to pick up on an important point by Mark, if a

:26:30.:26:36.

western approved democracy doesn't take off in Libya, by which I mean

:26:37.:26:43.

giant corporations ex exploiting oil and gas to vast profits, I'm

:26:43.:26:46.

sure covert operations will continue in Libya, and western

:26:46.:26:50.

Governments will select another Government. They seem happy with

:26:50.:26:53.

the National Transitional Council, as we saw with Gaddafi

:26:53.:26:56.

relationships can change very quickly indeed. You are shaking

:26:56.:27:00.

your head? I disagree with it. We are not involved in some grand oil

:27:00.:27:04.

and gas conspiracy. The problem with British policy over the years

:27:04.:27:09.

it has been short-term, and crossing ethical lines. It is not a

:27:09.:27:12.

grand global conspiracy. We have heard the Trade Secretary saying to

:27:12.:27:16.

British businessmen specifically, pack your suitcases, we have heard

:27:16.:27:23.

the same from the French Foreign Minister. The NTC made it

:27:23.:27:27.

abundantly clear it was willing to reward the western Governments

:27:27.:27:30.

involved in the conflict. The oil and gas argument is perfectly

:27:30.:27:36.

viable. Supposing things don't work out

:27:36.:27:40.

with the NTC for whatever reason, then it would be absolutely right

:27:40.:27:43.

would, it not, according to your analysis, that this country pursues

:27:43.:27:48.

its own vital interests? I think we have vital interests. We have also

:27:48.:27:53.

to respect international law and not go around torturing people.

:27:53.:27:57.

That is a sensible conclusion. Thank you very much.

:27:57.:28:00.

British tax-payers will not be spending large amounts of money

:28:00.:28:03.

keeping the euro afloat, we know this because the Government has

:28:03.:28:08.

told us so. Yet today it emerged that the

:28:08.:28:13.

International Monetary Fund is scrabling around to find another

:28:13.:28:16.

$600 billion or so. Britain will be asked for a health kwhree whack of

:28:16.:28:22.

it. This will not be -- healthy whack of it, this will not be for

:28:22.:28:28.

anything as pretentious as propping up the euro. Paul Mason asked the

:28:28.:28:32.

Italian Prime Minister. The Italians seem amused to have in

:28:32.:28:37.

charge of your country, who is seen everywhere else, as a buffoon,

:28:37.:28:41.

explain to our tax-payers why we should pay a single penny to clear

:28:41.:28:44.

up the mess, left by Silvio Berlusconi. To my knowledge, my

:28:44.:28:54.

country has not cost a penny to the UK so far. Nor visa versa as I'm

:28:54.:29:01.

aware of. At least in the present historical phase. I believe both

:29:01.:29:07.

Italy and the UK are huge beneficiaries from the single

:29:07.:29:12.

market and European integration. You make some personal observations

:29:12.:29:21.

that I respect. That was about a recent Italian Prime Minister. I,

:29:21.:29:27.

however, fail to see the connection between your characterisation of

:29:27.:29:32.

his personality, and the international burden for the UK

:29:32.:29:39.

tax-payers. Paul Mason is here. How much are we on the hook for? Today,

:29:39.:29:42.

the IMF has come to the international community and said we

:29:42.:29:47.

want to more than double our lending power to a trillion dollars.

:29:47.:29:51.

That means it needs another $600 billion. That is huge. And most of

:29:51.:29:57.

it, or a lot of it, will be earmarked to save Mr De Montfort's

:29:57.:30:04.

country, Italy and also -- Mr Mario Monti's country, Italy and also

:30:04.:30:13.

Spain. We will be on the hook for $ 150 billion We're being warned

:30:13.:30:17.

there is negative growth figures for the lest of this year. Last

:30:17.:30:22.

time they tried to get an IMF increase through parliament was bad

:30:22.:30:25.

news, they had a rebellion. It would be quite difficult for them

:30:25.:30:29.

to do it this time. The Americans are saying they are not

:30:29.:30:33.

participating and giving anything to the IMF, as a result of today's

:30:33.:30:34.

call. The Greeks say they are on the

:30:34.:30:38.

verge of writing off their debt? Rembering the middle of last year

:30:38.:30:43.

and standing amid all the teargas. One was being phoned up by people

:30:43.:30:47.

in the European Union saying if Greece writes off its debt, partial

:30:47.:30:52.

default, it will be a Lehman-style moment. Six to nine months, we have

:30:52.:30:56.

got to a position where there is enough resilience to try it out N

:30:56.:31:01.

the 48 hours we will see a -- in the next 48 hours we will see a

:31:01.:31:05.

deal. If we get to Friday and it has happened, and the French

:31:05.:31:11.

banking system hasn't gone up in smoke, and a huge credit event

:31:11.:31:14.

triggering all kinds of activities in the insurance markets, that will

:31:14.:31:18.

be a good thing. It has been the thing that we have been fearing for

:31:18.:31:22.

the best part of six months, we are on the eve of it. That is another

:31:22.:31:28.

part of it. The step towards resolution for the eurocrisis.

:31:28.:31:33.

won't be good news if you have Greek debt? It is going to be

:31:33.:31:38.

halved, that is what they are haggling about. The market is

:31:38.:31:42.

acause tomorrowing itself to that happen. Most Greek debt is held by

:31:42.:31:48.

Greeks and Greek banks. The hope and fear in Greece is it won't

:31:48.:31:54.

solve anything. It might solve the ticking timebomb we were told about

:31:54.:31:58.

last year. Someone is taking Boris Johnson seriously, according to

:31:58.:32:02.

London, he's seriously interested in the scheme he has been

:32:02.:32:07.

supporting, for a massive new airport in Kent. He hopes to say

:32:07.:32:13.

like Christopher Wren of St Paul's, "if you want my memorial, look

:32:13.:32:16.

about you". This being Britain nothing will happen imminently.

:32:16.:32:22.

There is a better than even chance, if it will happen at all.

:32:22.:32:26.

1234 He started slow and small with the Boris bike, not a bit bigger

:32:26.:32:31.

and quicker with the Boris bus. But now the Mayor of London wants to go

:32:31.:32:38.

global and at jet speed. A new airport in the Thames Estuary. It

:32:38.:32:42.

is not here yet, but this is propossessioned site of Boris

:32:42.:32:47.

Island. That is the -- proposed site of Boris Island. That is the

:32:47.:32:51.

Medway there, the proposed island in Kent. First things first, don't

:32:51.:32:56.

call it an island. Don't take my word for it, here is the mayor's

:32:56.:33:01.

description of his shining vision. I'm more of a peninsula. This is

:33:01.:33:04.

what it could look like, 150 million passengers a year.

:33:04.:33:10.

According to the aviation industry, we do need to think big, if we want

:33:10.:33:14.

to attract flyers from new emerging markets, like China and Brazil?

:33:14.:33:19.

Heathrow is at 99%, Gatwick is a similar figure. If you look at

:33:19.:33:22.

Amsterdam or Frankfurt or Paris, they have four runways, Amsterdam

:33:22.:33:28.

has six. Those airports with four runways, run at 5% capacity. That

:33:28.:33:33.

means when there is -- 75% capacity, that means when there is disruption

:33:33.:33:39.

the whole system doesn't collapse. There is catch-up. You can't have

:33:39.:33:42.

a% runway utilise laigs, that is why the hub is constrained.

:33:42.:33:49.

There is a few problems with the Thames Estuary, there is the wreck

:33:49.:33:54.

of the HSS Richard Montgomery, it sanction with tonnes of explosives

:33:54.:33:59.

on board. That would have to be moved, as, presumably will all the

:33:59.:34:08.

boards. According to the RS PCB, this is a wetland of rare birds.

:34:08.:34:11.

200,000 birds coming here to winter. Would you really want to be sitting

:34:11.:34:15.

on an aircraft, taking off at the end of the runway, where we are

:34:15.:34:18.

standing now, through thousands and thousands of birds, it is not safe.

:34:18.:34:21.

It is not in line with the Government saying it wants to be

:34:21.:34:26.

the greenest Government ever. development needs, it has always

:34:26.:34:29.

been a balance between development and conservation needs. Sometimes

:34:29.:34:34.

you have to pay a price. Why not here? Where do you draw the line.

:34:34.:34:38.

We have lost 50% of the wetlands in the wild in the last century. This

:34:38.:34:44.

is one of the last best pieces of wetland habitat in the country.

:34:44.:34:50.

some the most significant fact in this is 2012 is an election year in

:34:50.:34:53.

London. Boris Johnson wants to be elected mayor again. He knows the

:34:53.:34:58.

people out here, who would be affected by a new hub airport,

:34:58.:35:03.

don't vote in the elections. Over there there are millions of people

:35:03.:35:07.

in west London, affected by the noise of Heathrow, and worried

:35:07.:35:12.

about its expansion. Well they do vote. The trouble with Heathrow is

:35:12.:35:17.

it is a great airport, but you can't indefinitely keep expanding,

:35:17.:35:21.

it is in the wrong place. 25% of all people in Europe who suffer

:35:21.:35:28.

from aviation noise pollution, live around Heathrow. So if you are

:35:28.:35:32.

going to expand your capacity, and business is making that case very

:35:32.:35:34.

powerfully to Government. George Osborne is off in China, he

:35:34.:35:39.

understands very clearly the need to communicate with the big growth

:35:39.:35:42.

economies of Asia and Latin America. If you are going to do that, then

:35:42.:35:51.

you have to look elsewhere. Last month's Feltham and Heston by-

:35:51.:35:54.

election, right on Heathrow's doorstep, through up interesting

:35:54.:36:04.
:36:04.:36:09.

results, which Boris can't fail to Conservative strategists think a

:36:10.:36:14.

policy of shifting the airport could be decisive.

:36:14.:36:20.

When do you expect it all to be under way? This does look a little

:36:20.:36:24.

bit more like electioneering, when you talk to the Lib Dems. Any

:36:24.:36:27.

announcement this side of the election would need their approval.

:36:27.:36:33.

This is Norman Baker, a Lib Dem and transport minister. See if you

:36:33.:36:37.

think Boris is going to win him over? We do not support the

:36:37.:36:42.

building of a new airport and will do our best to stop it. There may

:36:42.:36:45.

be powerful arguments in favour of a new airport, it is true the

:36:45.:36:48.

Government is about to hold a consultation on the UK's airport

:36:48.:36:53.

capacity, looking at all of the options. However, the flurry of

:36:53.:37:01.

interest today in Boris Island. More of a peninsula. Sorry, Boris

:37:02.:37:05.

Peninsula", seems to have more to do with the London election

:37:05.:37:11.

timetable than anything else. We are joined by the Lib Dem L Ron

:37:11.:37:19.

Hubbard, and Jon Moulton, a venture capitalist. Are we really deciding

:37:20.:37:23.

on an airport because Boris wants to be re-elected? Yes. That is not

:37:23.:37:28.

a good thing? No. There is an unequivocal case to be made for it,

:37:28.:37:31.

leaving aside to whether Boris Johnson is up for election? It is a

:37:31.:37:37.

pretty tough case to run easily. Other than a rather special

:37:37.:37:40.

circumstances that Boris is in. It is hard to see this being

:37:40.:37:45.

politically wise. There is an awful lot of opposition and very little

:37:45.:37:50.

for this idea. You are in favour of it? I'm not. I think there are

:37:50.:37:55.

better alternatives. The third runway at Heathrow is not good, but

:37:55.:38:03.

it is better. Linking up Gatwick and Heathrow has lots of problems.

:38:03.:38:06.

That is better than the idea. the Government says it won't do the

:38:07.:38:10.

third runway at Heathrow, what could they do? They could change

:38:10.:38:14.

their minds t has been done before. As long as you are part of the

:38:14.:38:18.

coalition l this happen? I don't think it will happen. -- Coalition,

:38:18.:38:22.

will this happen? I don't think it will happen. This is very much a

:38:22.:38:26.

Boris election gimmick. I have been talking to lots of Conservatives

:38:26.:38:31.

today, who think the idea is as daft as the rest of us. It is about

:38:31.:38:35.

Boris but the need for more airport capacity? If it was about, that you

:38:35.:38:39.

would see the department for transport being involved in this,

:38:39.:38:43.

having done some work. You are against it full stop, against the

:38:43.:38:47.

idea of any further airport capacity? I'm against expansion in

:38:47.:38:51.

the south-east of Britain, I don't think it makes a lot of sense, from

:38:51.:38:59.

an environmental perfective. basics are we are maxed out at

:38:59.:39:03.

Heathrow, unless we deprive the locals of sleep, which is pushing

:39:03.:39:10.

it a bit far. We are losing our strength as an international hub I

:39:10.:39:17.

think there is three destinations for Heathrow in China, there are 15

:39:17.:39:21.

in France. We are losing our share of flights because we don't have

:39:21.:39:26.

any xas fee at Heathrow. We need a -- capacity at Heathrow. We need a

:39:26.:39:30.

greater capacity at the hub airport. The only way to do it, extend

:39:30.:39:35.

Heathrow, quicker, painful for people in the airia. Link up

:39:35.:39:39.

Gatwick and Heathrow, that has spare capacity. That costs money,

:39:39.:39:45.

nothing like the amount of money that is needed to build the estuary

:39:45.:39:50.

airport. You think we need greater capacity? It would be good for the

:39:50.:39:53.

economy, and probably outweigh the significant downsides that come

:39:53.:39:59.

with it. Whiels you are in Government, however -- whiels you

:39:59.:40:04.

are in Government, however long it lasts, there will be no expansion

:40:04.:40:12.

of capacity? We will be clear, The coalition agreement is clear,

:40:12.:40:18.

welling not move away from that. John has an accurate decribing all

:40:18.:40:23.

the problems with possible solutions. In my view they outweigh

:40:23.:40:26.

the benefits. We have to reach climate change targets, that means

:40:26.:40:30.

not investing in damaging projects like these. The problem with you is,

:40:30.:40:35.

we can't believe a thing you say. This was in your manifesto, no

:40:35.:40:38.

third runway, and similar commitments, as was a commitment

:40:38.:40:42.

not to increase student fees? have been very clear that we will

:40:42.:40:49.

stick with it. This is one you will abide by? Speaking as someone who

:40:49.:40:53.

voted against fees. Bully for you, has Nick Clegg given you an

:40:53.:40:57.

assurance that he means what he says? The Department of Transport

:40:57.:41:01.

doesn't seem to be backing it. If you look at what they are saying.

:41:01.:41:04.

What do you care about what the department of transport thinks,

:41:04.:41:08.

isn't it matter of principle for you? In this case it seems the

:41:08.:41:13.

department for transport isn't supporting it, the local MPs aren't

:41:13.:41:16.

supporting it. John said there are very few people supporting it, we

:41:16.:41:20.

will stick to that. How worried are you about

:41:20.:41:24.

politicians not investing in infrastructure in this country?

:41:24.:41:30.

Quite serious. The cost of this airport, lowest amount in the press

:41:30.:41:36.

is �30 billion. Moraleity is probably nearer �80. The Government

:41:36.:41:40.

is planning to spend �8 billion on all the traffic infrastructure,

:41:41.:41:44.

that is the amount in the last budget. We need to spend more,

:41:44.:41:48.

improving our infrastructure is one thing that works for the future. We

:41:48.:41:54.

have to choose the right things, we have to do things that we can done

:41:54.:41:59.

fairly quickly Boris says this one six years, it is the same

:41:59.:42:05.

likelihood of me getting an her receiptry peerage. It is a 20-year

:42:05.:42:09.

project if it is a day. Is there something about the way we run

:42:09.:42:16.

these things, the way politicians look after their interest, that is

:42:16.:42:19.

integral to infrastructure planning? This is a 20-yor project

:42:19.:42:28.

and we have five year elections. If you are -- 20-year elections. --

:42:28.:42:34.

this is a 20-year project and we have five-year elections. Many of

:42:34.:42:37.

the other things they are suggesting is sensible, increasing

:42:37.:42:42.

the investment. Extra rail to link up ports properly, that would be

:42:42.:42:46.

good. That would be faster and cheaper than this. I think it would

:42:46.:42:49.

provide more benefit. The problem is the same, you guys are living

:42:49.:42:53.

from election to election, and these things take years and years

:42:53.:42:57.

to put in place? Indeed, that is something we have to resolve. The

:42:57.:43:01.

interaction of the media with politicians shortens the time scale

:43:01.:43:06.

with 24-hour cycles. The fact you guys haven't the guts to make a

:43:06.:43:10.

decision is some how the media's fault? We are increasing, for

:43:10.:43:16.

example, on rail investment, the Autumn Statement announced �1.4

:43:16.:43:19.

million in rail investment. That is more than the Victorian era.

:43:19.:43:22.

Politicians are beginning to take those decisions, we will continue

:43:22.:43:26.

to do so. I hope we will be able to have more.

:43:26.:43:31.

Has Nick Clegg given you an assurance? That there will be no

:43:31.:43:35.

expansion of airports in the south- east? That is the clear manifesto

:43:35.:43:38.

commitment, there is nothing to suggest anything else. There is

:43:38.:43:41.

further work. An air strategy coming out. I don't believe that

:43:41.:43:47.

will be an outcome in the south- east. Boris's antics today, with

:43:47.:43:52.

his flights of fancy, have made it harder for his case. There is a lot

:43:52.:43:58.

of issues about whatever we do. One of the problems building any of

:43:58.:44:00.

these enhanced capacity in the south-east, is it will further

:44:00.:44:06.

increase the regional divide. Lots of issues here, this idea is just

:44:06.:44:13.

being flouted for electoral purposes nothing else.

:44:13.:44:23.
:44:23.:44:56.

Cynicism in one so young! The That's more than enough for now. I

:44:56.:45:01.

will be back tomorrow with among other things a discussion on

:45:01.:45:11.
:45:11.:45:32.

whether maxim has anything to offer the world. Good night.

:45:32.:45:36.

Good evening, mild but cloudy across southern areas with

:45:36.:45:39.

outbreaks of rain. Further wet weather in the morning. Some

:45:40.:45:44.

sunshine for a time, a scattering of hours, becoming more frequent

:45:44.:45:50.

during the second half of the day. Wintry in the top, to the Fells,

:45:50.:45:54.

the Pennines, gusty winds attached, but dry and bright weather. For the

:45:55.:45:57.

Midlands, East Anglia and southern England. After the clouty and wet

:45:57.:46:02.

standard we have here, by the afternoon most will be dry. Sunny

:46:02.:46:05.

spells. The winds coming from west or north-westerly direction. It

:46:05.:46:09.

will be gradually bringing in colder air t won't feel as mild as

:46:09.:46:13.

it did in the morning. A few showers flowing into north and west

:46:13.:46:17.

Wales. Continuing to see hours on and off during the day. Brightness

:46:17.:46:22.

between, a little bit wintry on the tops of the hills. More significant

:46:22.:46:26.

amounts of snow for Scotland, higher and central ground of

:46:26.:46:31.

Scotland. Good covering in places, still some gaps in the snow showers,

:46:31.:46:38.

continuing into Thursday night. As you look on Friday to the northern

:46:38.:46:48.
:46:48.:46:50.

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