Browse content similar to 18/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Gootd good evening, British planes helped secure the skies above Libya | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
in the overthrow of Colonel Gaddafi. Were British forces deployed on the | :00:15. | :00:21. | |
ground as well. The air war we know about, but tonight we piece | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
together the cland desTyne missions of some of the country's most | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
secret soldiers. Our investigation reveals Britain | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
did have boots on the ground in Libya, with details of who they | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
were and what role they were meant to play. | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
The Conservative MP, Rory Stewart, and a writer are here to discuss. | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
This man tells us how British Secret Service agents came to call | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
on him while he was being held in one of Colonel Gaddafi's prisons. | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
Why, please explain to our tax- payers, should we pay a single | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
penny to clear up the mess left by Silvio Berlusconi? | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
Our economics editor ask the Italian President the question on | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
the nation's lips. And does the well being of a bunch | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
of birds justify beginning the Mayor of London's pet project, of a | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
new airport. This is where Boris wants to put | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
his island. But is this really about building a new hub airport | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
for the south-east of England, or building up the mayor's chances of | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
:01:33. | :01:34. | ||
being re-elected? The British involvement in the | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
campaign to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi was a very public one, or | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
rather part of it. The use of RAF aircraft was very public. The | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
fighting on the ground was said to have been done by Libyans. But | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
Newsnight has learned that British soldiers were on the ground in | :01:50. | :01:59. | |
Libya, alongside the anti-Gaddafi forces. Our defence editor reports. | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
Britain's secret war in Libya evolved in fits and starts. But its | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
architects believe it helped finally to tip the balance in | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
favour of the Libyan revolutionaries, enabling them to | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
seize the country and capture Gaddafi. | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
Colonel Gaddafi said he would hunt you down like rats, but you showed | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
the courage of loins wae, slut your courage. | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
-- And we salute your courage. success, we learned, did involve | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
deploying the SAS on the ground to help. But the tale of how they got | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
there wasn't simple. The Libyan revolution started in | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
February last year. Very quickly the Libyan Armed Forces split, and | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
the leading rebels set themselves up in Benghazi. | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
The British Government soon decided to send a rescue mission to the | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
desert of southern Libya. It involved RAF Hercules aircraft, and | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
a dozen marines of the sea squadron Special Boat Service. Ministry of | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
Defence showed the mission, but not the commandos there to secure it. | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
On the 27th of February, they founted three flights to take 150 - | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
- mounted three flights to take 150 foreign oil workers, 20 British, | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
from southern Libya to Malta. we got on to the plane there was | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
two locals attacked the plane with large knives and machetes to try to | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
rip the tyres. The special forces challenged them told them to stop, | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
and fortunately somebody tackled them, brought the guys down and | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
took them back. In the footage of the taxiing | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
Hercules in halt at that, a clue appeared to the next phase of the | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
operation. A special forces Chinook helicopter awaiting its mission. | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
For in the chaos engulfing Libya, the Government decided to back the | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
National Transitional Council, or NTC, and work for the overthrow of | :04:09. | :04:17. | |
Gaddafi. There speaker, it is clear this is an illegitimate regime, | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
that has lost the consent of its people. Our message to Colonel | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
Gaddafi is simple, go now. The next phase of the operation involved a | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
highly sensitive unit of British special forces, made up jointly of | :04:28. | :04:35. | |
the SAS, and SBS, it is called E Squadron, and operates closely with | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
MI6. Early in March six members of E Squadron boarded a Chinook | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
helicopter, with two MI6 officers and flew to a place near Benghazi. | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
They were going to meet rebel leaders. Why do it that way when | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
there was a British friget in a harbour nearby. Apparently MI6 | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
wanted to avoid going near any British symbol of power. But the | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
mission turned into a fiasco reported worldwide. A British | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
diplomatic team detained by rebels in Libya has been released. Despite | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
carrying everything needed for a covert mission, from civilian | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
clothes to a variety of passports, the British had been nabd by armed | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
local farmers. E Squadron had become unstuck almost immediately | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
the British ambassador was left to plead with the NTC to release them. | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
I hope to ask Mr Jalil if he might be able to intervene to help us | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
clear up this misunderstanding, if there is anything we can do to help | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
explain who they are and what they were doing. After this public | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
embarrassment, British special forces were closed out of the | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
picture for months, we have been told. But the visible commitment of | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
planes and ships was growing. A couple of weeks later, France, the | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
US and Britain started bombing Gaddafi's forces. And the stakes | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
were raised again for the Cameron Government. | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
It was time to send a properly accredited team to Benghazi to | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
liaise with the NTC. By April, half-a-dozen army officers in plain | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
clothes and intelligence people, were actively working in Benghazi | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
to build capacity. An embryo defence ministry and a command | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
structure. They operated in Benghazi, Misrata and near breing | :06:24. | :06:31. | |
ga. But they were unarmed, and -- Breg a, but they were unarmed, and | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
their main aim was getting Libyan units working to some sort of plan, | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
and save them from being hit by accident by NATO. | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
That happened a couple of times and we filmed these NTC units marking | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
their vehicles with identification symbols, as a response. | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
The poor record of these men led British liaison officers in | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
Benghazi to argue for people able to raise their performance. | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
The UN resolution that authorised NATO bombing specifically pro-hib | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
bitted ground troops anywhere in -- prohibited ground troops anywhere | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
in Libya. What about ground troops and special forces. We have learned | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
that the National Security Council, shortly after the bombing started, | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
tasked military chiefs to look at the feasiblilty of a train and | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
equiff mission to the Libyan rebels. Publicly, meanwhile, ministers | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
shyed away from talk of boots on the ground. This is not British | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
ground combat forces going in. That's what the people mean by | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
boots on the ground. We are very clear about the United Nations | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
resolutions. They forbid any foreign occupation of any part of | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
Libya, we will absolutely stick to that. The road to sending British | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
special forces back into Libya lay via Qatar. The emrate had taken a | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
strong stance against Gaddafi from the outset. Visits from British and | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
French military chiefs, led to a joint mission being established. | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
Special forces from all three countries would be sent to Libya, | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
to assist with training as well as co-ordinating their command, and | :08:11. | :08:19. | |
NATO air strikes. The French would go to the west, the British to the | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
east. By August 20 men from D- squadron were rating in small teams | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
in places like Breg a and Misrata, as well as training base in | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
southern Libya. The air strikes had gone on for months, many had | :08:34. | :08:41. | |
predicted doing it from the skies alone might not work. It has become | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
a much more difficult fight, much more difficult targets. As I have | :08:47. | :08:55. | |
observed in recent days, essentially it is very much | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
stalemate-like in the vicinity of Brega. Within days of the new teams | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
moving into action, the NTC was fighting its way into Tripoli, | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
assistance from Qatar and France seems to have been particularly | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
important here. But the Misrata units being helped by the British, | :09:15. | :09:22. | |
were soon forcing their way into Gaddafi's home town of Sirte. At | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
this point the British would not give weapons, but it did help the | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
Libyans with radios and other equipment to co-ordinate air | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
strikes. France and Qatar did send weapons, including, we have been | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
told, Milan anti-tank missiles like these. As the revolutionaries | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
fought into Sirte, NATO air strikes were pivitol, they were co- | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
ordinated by the British, including men on the ground. Were they | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
involved in the final drama as Muammar Gaddafi was taken and then | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
killed by the NTC? That's a subject that everyone | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
remains tight-lipped about. Though they do say that within weeks of | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
Gaddafi's death, the special forces' presence was being wound | :10:05. | :10:12. | |
down. The architects of the joint UK-French-Qatar operation insist it | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
graves coherence, organisation and drive to the revolutionary ground | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
forces. Integrating the Qataris and Jordanians in the operation was | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
also vital. Without them and their defence chiefs' leadership, | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
especially the huge understanding they brought to the campaign, it is | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
unlikely that the NTC's militias could have successfully acted as | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
the land element, without which the right outcome would have been | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
possible. The role of special fores and MI6 in this process is still | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
not publicly -- forces and MI6 in the process is still not public | :10:48. | :10:56. | |
knowledge. It extended the British involvement in the Libyan struggle, | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
to a greater degree than Government statements had suggested. In a | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
moment two people who spent some time in the Newsnight studio during | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
the Libyan war and in Libya during and after, the Conservative MP, | :11:07. | :11:16. | |
Rory Stewart and the writer and journalist, Nabila Ramdani. First, | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
Mark Urban is here, this is significantly different from what | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
we were told? William Hague was talking in the conflict about the | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
UK's desire to stay within the terms of res Luis. This is | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
something that exercise -- resolution. This is something that | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
exercised Whitehall for months. Lawyers from various departments | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
were sceptical it could be done. Eventually it was done. Finally the | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
troops that went in, the two dozen from the SAS from August on wards | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
were armed. Where as the earlier missions the mentoring, consultants, | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
went in plain clothes, unarmed. significant a contribution was it? | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
Well, it is easy to argue this both ways. A lot of people would say | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
that even after the fall of Tripoli, and even Sirte, that those gangs of | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
men in their pick-up trucks and heavy machine guns and the rest of | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
it, were a wild, unco-ordinated and indisciplined lot. However, they | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
had achieved their objective, it was important, I think, for the | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
countries that backed them, that, if you like, they wanted to bank | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
some of the political influence that came from helping them achieve | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
their objective, the qar tar defence force chief claimed -- | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
quart tar defence force chief claims hundreds of Qataris were | :12:32. | :12:39. | |
involved. The French want it known that they armed. The British hoped | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
by being involved in that way they would buy influence in that new | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
Libya. Do you think they want it made public? I can't say that is | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
what the Government wants. Rory Stewart and Nabila Ramdani, to what | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
extent do you think the revolution is tainted by this sort of | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
discovery? It is absolutely tainted by this sort of discovery. I think | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
Mark's report is fascinating, but sadly, not in the least bit | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
surprising. What the discussion should be all about is not so much | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
military intervention, but illegal military intervention. The use of | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
British special forces in Libya shows that the British completely | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
ignored the United Nations resolution 1973. In many ways. Not | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
just by sending special forces on the ground. But the resolution was | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
breached by sending arms to the rebels, by training them, by | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
equipping them with communications, and crucially, the breach of 1973 | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
also resulted in Libyans dying on a daily basis. | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
Rory Stewart, do you think there was a breach of the UN resolution | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
in this? I don't believe it is a breach of the resolution. The | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
resolution is about occupation forces on the ground, not small | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
covert operations. It says no force of occupation? I disagree. What | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
1973 absolutely does not authorise is elite foreign troops from a | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
western democracy, interfering in the internal affairs of an | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
sovereign Arab country. Let's not forget that. Remember that | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
thousands of people died in Libya in spite of western intervention. | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
So the Libyan conflict was all about ousting an Arab regime which | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
had fallen out with the west, just a few years after dealing with the | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
west over everything from oil. don't think he was a tyrant? | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
course he was a tyrant. Fine. it is not up to elite troops from a | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
western democracy to oust him. you were in favour of the air | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
campaign? I was in favour of military intervention, when it was | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
abundantly clear Gaddafi was threatening a bloodbath in Benghazi. | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
What I was disagreeing with was the form and shape of the military | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
intervention. I'm all for legal intervention, when it is fair and | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
transparent, but illegal intervention is something that is | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
morally wrong. I think the other thing, to put it in proportion, | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
this is a very small intervention, you are talking about 20 people. | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
doesn't matter how small, we were misled about it. Public claims were | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
made that there were not British soldiers there, and there were? | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
Foreign Secretary is very clear, he said when boots on the ground are | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
talked about,'s talking about large forces. Britain has intelligence | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
agencies, we have special forces, we did, as we know, in Afghanistan, | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
and on a small scale in Lybia, and in a very cautious way. Unarmed | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
initially, very few people, no arming of the rebels. That is | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
perfectly within the resolution. arming of the rebels. The British | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
didn't. That was left to the French and Qataris. They were part of the | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
NATO coalition, they are responsible. We are not responsible | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
for France. For breaches of a fundamental UN revolution. We are | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
not responsible for France or Qatar. You are, I think UN resolutions are | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
designed for a specific purpose, to intervene when there is a specific | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
threat in real time. That was the case in Benghazi. What it doesn't | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
authorise is to settle scores with an Arab tyrant which had fallen out | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
with the west. What is all this talk about settling scores? Let me | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
be clear, Britain was, one day Britain was serving Gaddafi's | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
enemies on a plate for torture, and the case of Belhadj. We will talk | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
about that in a moment or two, we will be talking to him. But | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
settling of scores, you said? saying one day Britain was serving | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
Gaddafi's enemies on a plate to him for torture, and the next day it is | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
using its finest elite troops to support them and lead them to | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
victory. Do you agree it did at least change | :16:47. | :16:54. | |
the nature of the conflict. Clearly, once embarked upon, it was | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
unconceivable that Britain, France and those who supported them would | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
allow it to have anything other than the outcome they sought? | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
it is very important to see the context there. Bribe should be | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
congratulated for showing restraint, not arming the rebels, not going | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
beyond of the terms of the resolution, it is hard to do. It | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
was successful because we didn't get carried away. One of the ways I | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
question Mark's report, there is suggestions that the military felt | :17:19. | :17:25. | |
their hands were tied too much. In this case it is correct to tie the | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
military's hands. Vietnam started with a few advisers, and ended up | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
with 500 though troops -- 500,000 troops, it was right we restrained | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
it. Any support would have been fine provided it wasn't too overt | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
or expensive? It is fine if it is within the terms of the resolution, | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
not committing atrocities, and in the end we have the Libyan support, | :17:49. | :17:56. | |
we got the balance right. Doesn't transparency matter? Enormously, | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
but I also think a nation should have a Secret Service, special | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
fores and isn't obliged to reveal on television everything it is | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
doing all the time. I don't think Britain would benefit from doing | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
that. Let me ask you this, do you think the outcome in the end | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
justified the means? Not at all. It is far too simplistic. You would | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
rather Gaddafi were there? Not at all, it was very important to | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
intervene militarily, to stop the fear of a bloodbath in Benghazi. | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
Once it was achieved, it was morally wrong to take sides in a | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
civil war, to lead a faction of the Libyan population to victory. | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
take up that point you raised a moment or two ago. The inquiry, | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
supposed to discover whether people working for the British Government, | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
might have colluded in torture might have been abandoned, or the | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
judge supposed to be carrying it out put it, it is not practical for | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
the inquiry to continue right now. The lawyers and civil liberties | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
activists representing the alleged victims are delighted, they said | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
the inquiry was inadequate from the start. The police investigations, | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
meanwhile, are continuing, into two cases, including that of Abdel | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
Hakim Belhadj. The Libyan commander who took Tripoli, but who spent six | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
years in Colonel Gaddafi's prisons, after, he claims, the British | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
helped capture him. Earlier I spoke to him in Tripoli and started by | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
asking him what he would like the British Government to do now. | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
TRANSLATION: First of all, we wanted the British Government to | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
apologise for what it did against us. And for the injustice against | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
us, and the mistakes made against us. Especially from the British | :19:38. | :19:46. | |
Intelligence Services. To apologise for the hidious crimes committed | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
against us. And now the case is taking its course, and we would | :19:52. | :19:59. | |
like those behind this crime to be brought to justice and put on trial. | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
Can you be certain that the British people you saw when you were in | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
prison, knew you were being tortured? TRANSLATION: The document | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
found at the Intelligence Service headquarters clearly points to the | :20:15. | :20:23. | |
implications of the British Intelligence Services. Those were | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
unjust people, they didn't respect human rights. What has been | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
revealed, and the documents clearly indicate the impli cakess of those | :20:32. | :20:41. | |
people. It exposes their actions, the crimes against myself and my | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
family. When you were being held in Libya under Colonel Gaddafi, did | :20:47. | :20:57. | |
:20:57. | :20:57. | ||
any British people come to see you? TRANSLATION: It was a year-and-a- | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
half before I saw someone. people who came to see you, men or | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
women, what age were they? TRANSLATION: As far as I can | :21:06. | :21:16. | |
:21:16. | :21:16. | ||
remember the team was led by a lady. She was accompanied by a man in his | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
50s. The two members from the British Intelligence Services came | :21:20. | :21:29. | |
to see me. Did you tell them you were being tortured? The room was | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
monitored, they eves dropped on our conversation. However, I gave them | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
the message that I was being tortured. They understood the | :21:39. | :21:49. | |
message. I clearly understood the message I was trying to give to | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
them. I was mistreated, I was psychalogically tortured. They gave | :21:55. | :22:05. | |
me signs that they goat the message. Were you physically tortured? | :22:05. | :22:12. | |
I was held was not fit for a human being. It was a sell, I was | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
deprived of daylight for a year- and-a-half. I couldn't see the sun. | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
I couldn't bathe. I couldn't have a shower. That carried on for over | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
two years, for two whole years. My wife was ill-streeted as well. | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
She's still suffering -- ill- treated as well, she's still | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
suffering psychological problems. Unfortunately the Libyan and | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
British Intelligence Services contributed towards this. Have the | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
British police been to talk to you in Libya since your country was | :22:44. | :22:53. | |
liberated? TRANSLATION: No, I have not met any British, any British | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
police personnel. Would you be willing to come to the UK to give | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
evidence? This matter is in the hands of my legal team, we are | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
discussing it, with regard to the location. I'm leaving this in the | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
hands of my legal team. After what happened to you, how do you feel | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
about Britain? First of all, regarding the British people, I hab | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
bour no ill feeling towards these people -- harbour no ill feeling | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
towards these people. Because relations between the people last. | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
I harbour ill feeling towards those implicated in my ill treatment, in | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
my suffering, in my operation. Those who contributed towards this | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
act, years of suffering and the treatment of my wife that was | :23:43. | :23:49. | |
pregnant at the time. Those people who harmed me also harmed their | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
people. I hope that relations between our two countries will | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
improve, will be consolidated and will be based on mutual interest | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
and mutual trust. I harbour no hatred and all I hope for is that | :24:03. | :24:13. | |
:24:13. | :24:16. | ||
justice will take its course and the law will prevail. Mark Rory | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
Stewart and Nabila Ramdani are still with us. These are murky | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
waters? They are, the case underlines the danger to Britain to | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
its reputation international, to its Secret Services, all of rest of | :24:29. | :24:39. | |
:24:39. | :24:39. | ||
it. Of these extraordinary changes, these advertise of - the forces | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
were -- after 9/11 they became enemies, according to his | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
allegations the UK helped Gaddafi get his hands on Mr Belhadj. Now we | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
find the situation...Even According to documents unearthed in Libya. | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
The British said as much? They aimed to cliem claim credit for | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
doing so. Now we have another situation, that is a danger with | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
backing the NTC, in way we have. If there is a further change in | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
direction, or the country descends into lawlessness, once again, the | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
UK could be held responsible for that. How embarrassing do you think | :25:16. | :25:24. | |
the revelations are? Hugely, it brings into sharp focus the extra | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
ordinary hypocritical and ambiguous Britain had with libia. Meanwhile | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
the intervention in Libya was wrapped in positive PR, we were | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
sold the military intervention as if they were offering humanitarian | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
reasons, and for the promotion of human rights. That is very cynical. | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
You wouldn't dissent from the fact it is highly embarrassing, would | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
you? If these allegations are true it is worse than that. It is | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
disgraceful. It illustrate that is our whole policy was short-term, | :25:55. | :26:03. | |
chaotic, ethically questionable, over a period of nearly 20 years. | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
Earlier you were saying it is right every nation has Secret Service and | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
special forces and everything not disclosed on television, this is | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
what happens? If you have a Secret Service, you have to watch them | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
very carefully, and special forces, it is not a license to do whatever | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
you want. The ethical rules need to be clear. Why are you shake your | :26:23. | :26:30. | |
head? I want to pick up on an important point by Mark, if a | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
western approved democracy doesn't take off in Libya, by which I mean | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
giant corporations ex exploiting oil and gas to vast profits, I'm | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
sure covert operations will continue in Libya, and western | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
Governments will select another Government. They seem happy with | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
the National Transitional Council, as we saw with Gaddafi | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
relationships can change very quickly indeed. You are shaking | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
your head? I disagree with it. We are not involved in some grand oil | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
and gas conspiracy. The problem with British policy over the years | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
it has been short-term, and crossing ethical lines. It is not a | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
grand global conspiracy. We have heard the Trade Secretary saying to | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
British businessmen specifically, pack your suitcases, we have heard | :27:16. | :27:23. | |
the same from the French Foreign Minister. The NTC made it | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
abundantly clear it was willing to reward the western Governments | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
involved in the conflict. The oil and gas argument is perfectly | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
viable. Supposing things don't work out | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
with the NTC for whatever reason, then it would be absolutely right | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
would, it not, according to your analysis, that this country pursues | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
its own vital interests? I think we have vital interests. We have also | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
to respect international law and not go around torturing people. | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
That is a sensible conclusion. Thank you very much. | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
British tax-payers will not be spending large amounts of money | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
keeping the euro afloat, we know this because the Government has | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
told us so. Yet today it emerged that the | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
International Monetary Fund is scrabling around to find another | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
$600 billion or so. Britain will be asked for a health kwhree whack of | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
it. This will not be -- healthy whack of it, this will not be for | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
anything as pretentious as propping up the euro. Paul Mason asked the | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
Italian Prime Minister. The Italians seem amused to have in | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
charge of your country, who is seen everywhere else, as a buffoon, | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
explain to our tax-payers why we should pay a single penny to clear | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
up the mess, left by Silvio Berlusconi. To my knowledge, my | :28:44. | :28:54. | |
country has not cost a penny to the UK so far. Nor visa versa as I'm | :28:54. | :29:01. | |
aware of. At least in the present historical phase. I believe both | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
Italy and the UK are huge beneficiaries from the single | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
market and European integration. You make some personal observations | :29:12. | :29:21. | |
that I respect. That was about a recent Italian Prime Minister. I, | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
however, fail to see the connection between your characterisation of | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
his personality, and the international burden for the UK | :29:32. | :29:39. | |
tax-payers. Paul Mason is here. How much are we on the hook for? Today, | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
the IMF has come to the international community and said we | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
want to more than double our lending power to a trillion dollars. | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
That means it needs another $600 billion. That is huge. And most of | :29:51. | :29:57. | |
it, or a lot of it, will be earmarked to save Mr De Montfort's | :29:57. | :30:04. | |
country, Italy and also -- Mr Mario Monti's country, Italy and also | :30:04. | :30:13. | |
Spain. We will be on the hook for $ 150 billion We're being warned | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
there is negative growth figures for the lest of this year. Last | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
time they tried to get an IMF increase through parliament was bad | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
news, they had a rebellion. It would be quite difficult for them | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
to do it this time. The Americans are saying they are not | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
participating and giving anything to the IMF, as a result of today's | :30:33. | :30:34. | |
call. The Greeks say they are on the | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
verge of writing off their debt? Rembering the middle of last year | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
and standing amid all the teargas. One was being phoned up by people | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
in the European Union saying if Greece writes off its debt, partial | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
default, it will be a Lehman-style moment. Six to nine months, we have | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
got to a position where there is enough resilience to try it out N | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
the 48 hours we will see a -- in the next 48 hours we will see a | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
deal. If we get to Friday and it has happened, and the French | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
banking system hasn't gone up in smoke, and a huge credit event | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
triggering all kinds of activities in the insurance markets, that will | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
be a good thing. It has been the thing that we have been fearing for | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
the best part of six months, we are on the eve of it. That is another | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
part of it. The step towards resolution for the eurocrisis. | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
won't be good news if you have Greek debt? It is going to be | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
halved, that is what they are haggling about. The market is | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
acause tomorrowing itself to that happen. Most Greek debt is held by | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
Greeks and Greek banks. The hope and fear in Greece is it won't | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
solve anything. It might solve the ticking timebomb we were told about | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
last year. Someone is taking Boris Johnson seriously, according to | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
London, he's seriously interested in the scheme he has been | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
supporting, for a massive new airport in Kent. He hopes to say | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
like Christopher Wren of St Paul's, "if you want my memorial, look | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
about you". This being Britain nothing will happen imminently. | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
There is a better than even chance, if it will happen at all. | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
1234 He started slow and small with the Boris bike, not a bit bigger | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
and quicker with the Boris bus. But now the Mayor of London wants to go | :32:31. | :32:38. | |
global and at jet speed. A new airport in the Thames Estuary. It | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
is not here yet, but this is propossessioned site of Boris | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
Island. That is the -- proposed site of Boris Island. That is the | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
Medway there, the proposed island in Kent. First things first, don't | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
call it an island. Don't take my word for it, here is the mayor's | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
description of his shining vision. I'm more of a peninsula. This is | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
what it could look like, 150 million passengers a year. | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
According to the aviation industry, we do need to think big, if we want | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
to attract flyers from new emerging markets, like China and Brazil? | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
Heathrow is at 99%, Gatwick is a similar figure. If you look at | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
Amsterdam or Frankfurt or Paris, they have four runways, Amsterdam | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
has six. Those airports with four runways, run at 5% capacity. That | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
means when there is -- 75% capacity, that means when there is disruption | :33:33. | :33:39. | |
the whole system doesn't collapse. There is catch-up. You can't have | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
a% runway utilise laigs, that is why the hub is constrained. | :33:42. | :33:49. | |
There is a few problems with the Thames Estuary, there is the wreck | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
of the HSS Richard Montgomery, it sanction with tonnes of explosives | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
on board. That would have to be moved, as, presumably will all the | :33:59. | :34:08. | |
boards. According to the RS PCB, this is a wetland of rare birds. | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
200,000 birds coming here to winter. Would you really want to be sitting | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
on an aircraft, taking off at the end of the runway, where we are | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
standing now, through thousands and thousands of birds, it is not safe. | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
It is not in line with the Government saying it wants to be | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
the greenest Government ever. development needs, it has always | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
been a balance between development and conservation needs. Sometimes | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
you have to pay a price. Why not here? Where do you draw the line. | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
We have lost 50% of the wetlands in the wild in the last century. This | :34:38. | :34:44. | |
is one of the last best pieces of wetland habitat in the country. | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
some the most significant fact in this is 2012 is an election year in | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
London. Boris Johnson wants to be elected mayor again. He knows the | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
people out here, who would be affected by a new hub airport, | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
don't vote in the elections. Over there there are millions of people | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
in west London, affected by the noise of Heathrow, and worried | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
about its expansion. Well they do vote. The trouble with Heathrow is | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
it is a great airport, but you can't indefinitely keep expanding, | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
it is in the wrong place. 25% of all people in Europe who suffer | :35:21. | :35:28. | |
from aviation noise pollution, live around Heathrow. So if you are | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
going to expand your capacity, and business is making that case very | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
powerfully to Government. George Osborne is off in China, he | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
understands very clearly the need to communicate with the big growth | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
economies of Asia and Latin America. If you are going to do that, then | :35:42. | :35:51. | |
you have to look elsewhere. Last month's Feltham and Heston by- | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
election, right on Heathrow's doorstep, through up interesting | :35:54. | :36:04. | |
:36:04. | :36:09. | ||
results, which Boris can't fail to Conservative strategists think a | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
policy of shifting the airport could be decisive. | :36:14. | :36:20. | |
When do you expect it all to be under way? This does look a little | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
bit more like electioneering, when you talk to the Lib Dems. Any | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
announcement this side of the election would need their approval. | :36:27. | :36:33. | |
This is Norman Baker, a Lib Dem and transport minister. See if you | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
think Boris is going to win him over? We do not support the | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
building of a new airport and will do our best to stop it. There may | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
be powerful arguments in favour of a new airport, it is true the | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
Government is about to hold a consultation on the UK's airport | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
capacity, looking at all of the options. However, the flurry of | :36:53. | :37:01. | |
interest today in Boris Island. More of a peninsula. Sorry, Boris | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
Peninsula", seems to have more to do with the London election | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
timetable than anything else. We are joined by the Lib Dem L Ron | :37:11. | :37:19. | |
Hubbard, and Jon Moulton, a venture capitalist. Are we really deciding | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
on an airport because Boris wants to be re-elected? Yes. That is not | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
a good thing? No. There is an unequivocal case to be made for it, | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
leaving aside to whether Boris Johnson is up for election? It is a | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
pretty tough case to run easily. Other than a rather special | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
circumstances that Boris is in. It is hard to see this being | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
politically wise. There is an awful lot of opposition and very little | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
for this idea. You are in favour of it? I'm not. I think there are | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
better alternatives. The third runway at Heathrow is not good, but | :37:55. | :38:03. | |
it is better. Linking up Gatwick and Heathrow has lots of problems. | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
That is better than the idea. the Government says it won't do the | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
third runway at Heathrow, what could they do? They could change | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
their minds t has been done before. As long as you are part of the | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
coalition l this happen? I don't think it will happen. -- Coalition, | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
will this happen? I don't think it will happen. This is very much a | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
Boris election gimmick. I have been talking to lots of Conservatives | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
today, who think the idea is as daft as the rest of us. It is about | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
Boris but the need for more airport capacity? If it was about, that you | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
would see the department for transport being involved in this, | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
having done some work. You are against it full stop, against the | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
idea of any further airport capacity? I'm against expansion in | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
the south-east of Britain, I don't think it makes a lot of sense, from | :38:51. | :38:59. | |
an environmental perfective. basics are we are maxed out at | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
Heathrow, unless we deprive the locals of sleep, which is pushing | :39:03. | :39:10. | |
it a bit far. We are losing our strength as an international hub I | :39:10. | :39:17. | |
think there is three destinations for Heathrow in China, there are 15 | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
in France. We are losing our share of flights because we don't have | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
any xas fee at Heathrow. We need a -- capacity at Heathrow. We need a | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
greater capacity at the hub airport. The only way to do it, extend | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
Heathrow, quicker, painful for people in the airia. Link up | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
Gatwick and Heathrow, that has spare capacity. That costs money, | :39:39. | :39:45. | |
nothing like the amount of money that is needed to build the estuary | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
airport. You think we need greater capacity? It would be good for the | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
economy, and probably outweigh the significant downsides that come | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
with it. Whiels you are in Government, however -- whiels you | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
are in Government, however long it lasts, there will be no expansion | :40:04. | :40:12. | |
of capacity? We will be clear, The coalition agreement is clear, | :40:12. | :40:18. | |
welling not move away from that. John has an accurate decribing all | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
the problems with possible solutions. In my view they outweigh | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
the benefits. We have to reach climate change targets, that means | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
not investing in damaging projects like these. The problem with you is, | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
we can't believe a thing you say. This was in your manifesto, no | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
third runway, and similar commitments, as was a commitment | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
not to increase student fees? have been very clear that we will | :40:42. | :40:49. | |
stick with it. This is one you will abide by? Speaking as someone who | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
voted against fees. Bully for you, has Nick Clegg given you an | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
assurance that he means what he says? The Department of Transport | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
doesn't seem to be backing it. If you look at what they are saying. | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
What do you care about what the department of transport thinks, | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
isn't it matter of principle for you? In this case it seems the | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
department for transport isn't supporting it, the local MPs aren't | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
supporting it. John said there are very few people supporting it, we | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
will stick to that. How worried are you about | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
politicians not investing in infrastructure in this country? | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
Quite serious. The cost of this airport, lowest amount in the press | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
is �30 billion. Moraleity is probably nearer �80. The Government | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
is planning to spend �8 billion on all the traffic infrastructure, | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
that is the amount in the last budget. We need to spend more, | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
improving our infrastructure is one thing that works for the future. We | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
have to choose the right things, we have to do things that we can done | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
fairly quickly Boris says this one six years, it is the same | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
likelihood of me getting an her receiptry peerage. It is a 20-year | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
project if it is a day. Is there something about the way we run | :42:09. | :42:16. | |
these things, the way politicians look after their interest, that is | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
integral to infrastructure planning? This is a 20-yor project | :42:19. | :42:28. | |
and we have five year elections. If you are -- 20-year elections. -- | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
this is a 20-year project and we have five-year elections. Many of | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
the other things they are suggesting is sensible, increasing | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
the investment. Extra rail to link up ports properly, that would be | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
good. That would be faster and cheaper than this. I think it would | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
provide more benefit. The problem is the same, you guys are living | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
from election to election, and these things take years and years | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
to put in place? Indeed, that is something we have to resolve. The | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
interaction of the media with politicians shortens the time scale | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
with 24-hour cycles. The fact you guys haven't the guts to make a | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
decision is some how the media's fault? We are increasing, for | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
example, on rail investment, the Autumn Statement announced �1.4 | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
million in rail investment. That is more than the Victorian era. | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
Politicians are beginning to take those decisions, we will continue | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
to do so. I hope we will be able to have more. | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
Has Nick Clegg given you an assurance? That there will be no | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
expansion of airports in the south- east? That is the clear manifesto | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
commitment, there is nothing to suggest anything else. There is | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
further work. An air strategy coming out. I don't believe that | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
will be an outcome in the south- east. Boris's antics today, with | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
his flights of fancy, have made it harder for his case. There is a lot | :43:52. | :43:58. | |
of issues about whatever we do. One of the problems building any of | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
these enhanced capacity in the south-east, is it will further | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
increase the regional divide. Lots of issues here, this idea is just | :44:06. | :44:13. | |
being flouted for electoral purposes nothing else. | :44:13. | :44:23. | |
:44:23. | :44:56. | ||
Cynicism in one so young! The That's more than enough for now. I | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
will be back tomorrow with among other things a discussion on | :45:01. | :45:11. | |
:45:11. | :45:32. | ||
whether maxim has anything to offer the world. Good night. | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
Good evening, mild but cloudy across southern areas with | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
outbreaks of rain. Further wet weather in the morning. Some | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
sunshine for a time, a scattering of hours, becoming more frequent | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
during the second half of the day. Wintry in the top, to the Fells, | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
the Pennines, gusty winds attached, but dry and bright weather. For the | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
Midlands, East Anglia and southern England. After the clouty and wet | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
standard we have here, by the afternoon most will be dry. Sunny | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
spells. The winds coming from west or north-westerly direction. It | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
will be gradually bringing in colder air t won't feel as mild as | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
it did in the morning. A few showers flowing into north and west | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
Wales. Continuing to see hours on and off during the day. Brightness | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
between, a little bit wintry on the tops of the hills. More significant | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
amounts of snow for Scotland, higher and central ground of | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
Scotland. Good covering in places, still some gaps in the snow showers, | :46:31. | :46:38. | |
continuing into Thursday night. As you look on Friday to the northern | :46:38. | :46:48. | |
:46:48. | :46:50. |