30/01/2012 Newsnight


30/01/2012

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think most people think it is right. job for a salary, as I do, you

:12:15.:12:18.

would have to do something exceptional for a bonus. The bonus

:12:18.:12:23.

structures are too complicated and big. Let's take a look at the long-

:12:23.:12:26.

term incentive bonus, that is �4 million apparently or possibly,

:12:26.:12:30.

should he get that? We don't know the details of that. I would say

:12:30.:12:34.

again, the board should exercise discretion and shareholders as well.

:12:34.:12:38.

You don't think there should be an incentive of any kind?

:12:38.:12:42.

incentive is to do a good job for the salary of more than a million.

:12:42.:12:45.

We don't know the detail of the bonus structure. What about the

:12:45.:12:50.

investment banking part of RBS who is entitled to another �4 million

:12:50.:12:54.

on top of his bonus, should he get it? It goes to a wider issue, about

:12:54.:12:59.

how banks are run. You know what the performance of the bank is?

:12:59.:13:03.

is not just banks that are majority held by tax-payers, it is other

:13:03.:13:06.

banks as well. We have heard from shareholders of Barclays that they

:13:06.:13:10.

are urging moderation as well. We need to see that moderation. This

:13:10.:13:18.

is the one you can hold forth on, you invented this system? When

:13:18.:13:21.

ordinary people are seeing no pay increases and people are losing

:13:21.:13:24.

their jobs. I don't think it is right you are getting the excessive

:13:24.:13:27.

bonuses, whether owned by the taxpayer or not. It is wrong

:13:27.:13:30.

everywhere? I think it is right that shareholders, whether it be

:13:30.:13:35.

the taxpayer, or whether it be the pension funds, urge moderation, and

:13:35.:13:39.

urge, not to go down this route of excessive bonus and pay. That was

:13:39.:13:42.

part of the reason that caused the financial crisis in the first place.

:13:42.:13:46.

We don't want to see that happening again. We need a fairer system, but

:13:46.:13:51.

also a system that doesn't build up the bubbles in the future. You say

:13:51.:13:55.

no rewards for achievement. failure. Either for achievement or

:13:55.:13:57.

failure. Why don't you argue that the whole bank be taken over and

:13:57.:14:02.

run as a national bank by a bunch of politicians or bureaucrats?

:14:02.:14:05.

Stephen Hester receives a decent salary for doing the job he's doing.

:14:05.:14:09.

A very large salary for doing the job he's doing, that should be the

:14:09.:14:14.

incentive to do the job. Bonuses have got all out of kilter, bonuses

:14:14.:14:17.

should be for doing something exceptional, not just your job. If

:14:17.:14:20.

you look at the banks this year, they have seen their share prices

:14:20.:14:24.

fall, they have laid off workers. Many of them are not meeting their

:14:24.:14:27.

lending targets either. I don't see in those circumstances how it is

:14:27.:14:30.

right to pay people at the top of those banks, big bonuses, when they

:14:30.:14:33.

haven't added value and they are not creating wealth in this country.

:14:33.:14:36.

The argument is you attract talent, supposing Stephen Hester was to do

:14:36.:14:39.

what the President of the CBI thinks he might do, and say, well,

:14:39.:14:44.

sod this for a game of soldiers, I'm off, would that be all right?

:14:44.:14:49.

With all respect, the idea these bonuses and this high pay has

:14:49.:14:53.

attracted the right people, that was said leading up to the crisis,

:14:53.:14:58.

that you had to pay the huge bonuses, look where that got us.

:14:58.:15:03.

you not care if he resigns? That seems to be totally overplayed, the

:15:03.:15:06.

board has said it is not on the cards. You don't care? I don't

:15:06.:15:10.

think there is a risk of doing that. Stephen Hester has done the right

:15:10.:15:14.

thing in declining that bonus payout. He has done the right thing,

:15:14.:15:18.

it is a shame the Government didn't come in earlier. But we should not

:15:18.:15:22.

be seeing these excessive bonuses when a company is laying off

:15:22.:15:26.

workers, when it is not meeting its lending targets and its share price

:15:26.:15:31.

has fallen by 40% as well. All but two of the members of the

:15:31.:15:33.

European Union, we are of course one of the two, have agreed the

:15:33.:15:37.

basis of a new fiscal treaty, which will restore confidence in the euro,

:15:38.:15:42.

they hope. The problem, of course, is that the eurozone crisis has

:15:42.:15:44.

already demonstrated that you can't create confidence just by saying

:15:44.:15:49.

there is no need to worry. The immediate test is Greece, the

:15:49.:15:52.

Germans, who have the disadvantage of an unhappy history, but the

:15:52.:15:56.

great advantage of being the people who pay most of Europe's bills,

:15:56.:16:03.

want to mechanism that can keep the Greek Government and others honest.

:16:03.:16:06.

Mark Urban is in Brussels. This summit is supposed to be about

:16:06.:16:10.

growth, but austerity still the only game in town? Absolutely. You

:16:10.:16:15.

could say today's meeting was about trying to find a balance between

:16:15.:16:18.

ideas on how Europe gets out of this recession. The growth ideas

:16:18.:16:22.

were being put by people who feel stimulus is essential, the

:16:23.:16:26.

austerity ones embodied in this fiscal compact we have heard about

:16:26.:16:30.

over the last few months, which is really a German-designed mechanism,

:16:30.:16:33.

for keeping a tight grip on Government spending in the other

:16:33.:16:38.

side of the argument. Surprise, surprise, despite some commitments

:16:38.:16:41.

towards greater growth and helping with job creation, the German view

:16:41.:16:44.

of this prevailed, they have got this document further down the road

:16:44.:16:48.

to being fully adopted, and they are very pleased. Important as

:16:48.:16:52.

getting out of recession might be, many people argue this really isn't

:16:52.:16:55.

the critical issue facing the EU at the moment, it is that crisis with

:16:55.:16:58.

Greece, where the Greek Government could run out of money within a

:16:58.:17:02.

couple of days. And the other issue people are talking about is

:17:02.:17:06.

Germany's continued failure to put more money towards the stability

:17:06.:17:11.

funds that would be used to save other eurocountries, like Italy.

:17:11.:17:19.

German leadership, in all cases, is critical. A general strike hit

:17:19.:17:23.

Belgium today, stopping trains and closing factories, Europe is

:17:23.:17:26.

soozing up, with countries going back -- seizing up, with countries

:17:26.:17:29.

going back into recession, and protests against austerity plans.

:17:29.:17:33.

As European leaders sought other means of transport into this city,

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they faced criticism for ducking the most pressing issues.

:17:37.:17:40.

There are two overhanging issues that the eurozone needs to deal

:17:40.:17:43.

with, one is Greece, and the other one is what to do with the size of

:17:43.:17:48.

the bailout funds, the rescue mechanisms, neither of those are on

:17:48.:17:52.

the table here. When we talk to officials about why they are here,

:17:52.:17:56.

they are acidously waiting until the Greek debt restructuring deal

:17:56.:18:00.

is completed in Athens, that is not done yet. David Cameron was back

:18:00.:18:05.

here for the first time since last December's British veto, but talk a

:18:05.:18:08.

different language. This is a European council where we need to

:18:08.:18:11.

get serious about the growth agenda in Europe. Completing the single

:18:11.:18:14.

market, signing trade deals with the fastest-growing parts of the

:18:14.:18:17.

world, and it means a serious effort at deregulation,

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particularly for small businesses, so they can create the jobs and

:18:20.:18:24.

growth we need. So what happened to the vital UK

:18:24.:18:28.

interests he sought to protect last time? There has been slight

:18:28.:18:31.

diplomatic movement, yes, but it is more a case now of going with the

:18:31.:18:37.

flow. Clearly the veto is being slightly

:18:37.:18:42.

watered down now, in that the UK does seem to be prepared to axe qi

:18:42.:18:45.

he is in the use of the institutions. I think that is an

:18:45.:18:49.

acceptance of the fact they didn't have much choice about it. You can

:18:49.:18:53.

hardly complain against the ECJ and complain against it taking more

:18:53.:18:56.

decisions, the Liberal Democrats with their desire to sign up to

:18:56.:19:00.

everything that comes out of Europe are going to prove difficult in the

:19:00.:19:05.

coalition. After the meeting Mr Cameron insisted he hadn't rolled

:19:05.:19:10.

over on December's veto. They have had to make a treaty outside the EU.

:19:10.:19:14.

They would prefer to have it inside the EU, which is why they are

:19:14.:19:17.

already talking about trying to bring it back inside the EU. To

:19:17.:19:21.

argue the veto doesn't matter seems to me to be bizarre. We are not in

:19:21.:19:24.

this treaty, part of it, we are not bound by it, we don't have to

:19:24.:19:27.

ratify it, we don't have to take it to the British parliament, that is

:19:27.:19:32.

what the viet toe secures you. Central to -- Veto secures you.

:19:32.:19:34.

Central to Mr Cameron's approach, making common cause with Germany,

:19:35.:19:39.

the real power in this place. That means public smiles, but also quiet

:19:39.:19:43.

pleading for Germany to commit more money to the EU's bailout reserves,

:19:43.:19:47.

rather than continue its bad- tempered spat with Greece over the

:19:47.:19:50.

austerity package. Something that makes the possible need for those

:19:50.:19:54.

funds more likely. It has to be challenged, because

:19:54.:20:00.

who else, if not the Germans, should have learned the lesson of

:20:00.:20:05.

history. It was the Chancellor in the Republic who did the same as

:20:05.:20:10.

what we see now, in a depression phase for Germany, with six million

:20:10.:20:14.

unemployed people. He said we have to tient the belts, and we all know

:20:14.:20:19.

-- tighten the belts, we all know it led to the Third Reich, it led

:20:19.:20:24.

to the catastrophy and of Europe. Today's Belgian strike extended to

:20:24.:20:31.

this Audi plant on the fringes of Brussels. It was an act of

:20:31.:20:34.

industrial disobedience against German bosses, corporate and as

:20:34.:20:38.

fiscal enforces of Europe. Inside the summit, Germany stood firm,

:20:38.:20:44.

particularly in its reluctance to put more money into the euro rescue

:20:44.:20:49.

fund. It was surprising to me at Davos, you saw leader after leader,

:20:49.:20:55.

Christine Lagarde, Timothy Geithner, French, American, British, France

:20:55.:20:58.

calling on Europe to increase the size of its mechanism, the one

:20:58.:21:02.

voice against it was the keynote address by Angela Merkel who said,

:21:02.:21:05.

no. Everyone now has argued until you get the bailout mechanism to

:21:05.:21:09.

the size where the markets say, OK, we believe you are serious now, the

:21:09.:21:12.

attacks on the sovereign bonds of the periphery are going to continue,

:21:12.:21:17.

she has resisted. In that she is critical, she is isolated but

:21:17.:21:20.

critical. The German approach may now be

:21:20.:21:25.

questioned by many, but the fiscal compact with its strict spending

:21:25.:21:29.

limits moved another step forward today. The meeting concluded with

:21:29.:21:35.

agreement among 25 on more detailed terms. The treaty on stability co-

:21:35.:21:39.

ordination and governance in the EMU has also been finalised, it

:21:39.:21:44.

took not so long to agree on it. It will be signed in March, and I

:21:44.:21:49.

think the fact that it was possible to come to an agreement, not only

:21:49.:21:55.

with all the countries, but by 25 members of the European Union was

:21:55.:21:59.

indeed very impressive. One of the reasons for the grid lock in Europe

:21:59.:22:04.

at the moment, on the big issues, is an absence of leadership or

:22:05.:22:09.

fresh ideas. David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy, for example, are

:22:09.:22:14.

very reluctant to challenge Chancellor Mercury on her austerity

:22:14.:22:24.
:22:24.:22:26.

policies. Now d Al-Khalili Merkel on her austerity policies. -- --

:22:26.:22:31.

Chancellor Merckel on her austerity policies. Mario Monti, he in

:22:31.:22:37.

Brussels has been a phenomenon as a commissioner for ten years. He has

:22:37.:22:42.

done a brilliant performance. He is the one who gets the whole picture,

:22:42.:22:46.

who captures the situation. He came to Berlin with clear proposal, I

:22:46.:22:51.

think he's the, if you want the secret leader of this bunch of

:22:51.:22:56.

European leaders, and I like this. He's an economist, he is an expert,

:22:56.:22:59.

and at the moment, he's one of the toughest politicians in the

:22:59.:23:08.

European Union. Mitly, Spain and Greece are struggling with bugetry

:23:08.:23:14.

discipline, even before the compact is considered. Whether or not De

:23:14.:23:19.

Montfort can challenge the German doctrine of austerity, when

:23:19.:23:23.

Chancellor Merkel has to write the checks.

:23:24.:23:30.

We are joined by our guest from Athens and Europe. With me in the

:23:30.:23:35.

studio is Joe Johnson, a Conservative MP who used to write

:23:35.:23:41.

the FT's column. Why are those members involved like lie to take

:23:41.:23:51.
:23:51.:23:53.

these restraints any more seriously than the last ones. I think the

:23:53.:23:55.

fiscal compact will give the possibility that all the measures

:23:55.:24:01.

are decided now in a positive way for the fiscal stability. But that

:24:01.:24:07.

we also at the same time have now the room to manoeuvre to talk more

:24:07.:24:17.
:24:17.:24:19.

about growth and structural changes. Do you like the sound of these

:24:19.:24:23.

restraints? With only focusing on the one side of the equation, which

:24:23.:24:29.

is who is writing the cheque and the input side, if you wish, not

:24:29.:24:33.

really focusing on the output, which is basically growth, and what

:24:33.:24:43.
:24:43.:24:44.

would actually be the exit from the crisis. These conditions that

:24:44.:24:49.

Germany is talking about, their cuts in pensions, budget, minimum

:24:49.:24:58.

wage, is any of that going to help Greece to grow? What will help

:24:58.:25:03.

Greece to grow is structural reforms, deregulation of the market.

:25:03.:25:07.

Many of these reforms are reflected in the austerity package, but not

:25:07.:25:14.

all of it. I think the overall weight, the burden on the fiscal

:25:14.:25:20.

changes, is really not put in the right focus. I think in this new

:25:20.:25:24.

package we have a different focus. That is being negotiated as we

:25:24.:25:31.

speak. That is looking forward to more structural reforms, more

:25:31.:25:34.

deregulations, versus fiscal changes alone. How does it look to

:25:34.:25:39.

you? I think it is great that they are focusing on competitiveness as

:25:39.:25:43.

closely as they are. The eurozone will shrink by one percentage point,

:25:44.:25:48.

GDP, this year. We are acutely exposed to that here in the UK.

:25:48.:25:53.

Measures, for example, as it was said, to deregulate, to exempt

:25:53.:25:57.

small businesses from new regulation, to strike new trade

:25:57.:26:01.

deals with countries such as Korea, and there is one in India to be

:26:01.:26:06.

discussed in Delhi. That is great news. Do you worry that some of

:26:06.:26:11.

these restraints may squeeze the life out of a country like Greece?

:26:12.:26:17.

It is already squeezing the life out of our country. Go on? I think

:26:17.:26:23.

they have to see we need a mixture of these austerity measures. I

:26:23.:26:27.

think only fiscal discipline is department for the long run. But on

:26:27.:26:32.

the other side, it is also important that now Greece does

:26:32.:26:38.

structural changes. Making it possible for the economy to be

:26:38.:26:42.

balanced, which is necessary for structural measures to get to more

:26:42.:26:46.

competitiveness, and that means, for example, to get rid of wrong

:26:46.:26:52.

regulations. But you are talking about cutting what, 150,000

:26:52.:26:55.

Government jobs, cutting defence, cutting pensions, cutting the

:26:55.:27:02.

minimum wage, what do you imagine that is going to do to Greece?

:27:02.:27:05.

is the alternative. If we continue to finance Greece on that level,

:27:05.:27:09.

Greece will be bankrupt, it will never become competitive. That is

:27:09.:27:13.

the mistake of 30 years of politics that has to be changed. All the

:27:13.:27:19.

countries have to do such things, and we see now in every country in

:27:19.:27:22.

the eurozone, it is stronger than the United States, less deficit,

:27:22.:27:31.

they have a better economic show nan the UK, -- than the UK, and

:27:31.:27:37.

less inflation, I think we are on the straight track. With Monti, as

:27:37.:27:40.

rightly mentioned, the leader in Italy, that makes all the

:27:40.:27:45.

difference to show it is possible to combine fiscal measures, keeping

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the rules, keeping the rules which were not kept in the last ten years,

:27:49.:27:54.

and make it possible to build on that growth. Do you worry about

:27:54.:27:59.

social unrest, that sort of thing, in Greece, if these conditions are

:27:59.:28:09.
:28:09.:28:09.

adhered to? I think what generates more upset is the bad media that

:28:09.:28:17.

has been going on for the last few years. About Greece. Greeks are

:28:17.:28:21.

rather proud people, they have been doing their share of austerity.

:28:21.:28:27.

Seven different waves of austerity measures have been taken. So, they

:28:27.:28:33.

are becoming, I have to admit, a little bit impatient with any

:28:33.:28:36.

additional criticisms. Let's be realistic, you wouldn't be in this

:28:36.:28:43.

mess if your Government hadn't told lies about the public financings?

:28:43.:28:46.

- Finances? It is not my Government now that has given any lies. My

:28:46.:28:50.

Government for the last two years has been trying to move all of us

:28:50.:28:59.

out of this. So this is the reality down at the bottom line. When you

:28:59.:29:04.

look at what's been agreed today, and everybody must hope, presumably

:29:04.:29:09.

that it works, what was the point of David Cameron's veto, last time

:29:09.:29:12.

round? The key thing is Britain is part of the solution, not the

:29:12.:29:16.

problem. We are at the table, contributing useful ideas to the

:29:16.:29:21.

negotiation, to the fiscal pact. It has now created the political space

:29:21.:29:24.

for Angela Merkel to do what she needs to do, in terms of giving

:29:24.:29:28.

greater resources to the bailout funds. To eventually looking at the

:29:28.:29:35.

possibility of eurobonds. Germans have got everything they

:29:35.:29:39.

wanted? She has to avoid a revolt back home. There are political

:29:39.:29:42.

restraints she's operating on. far as your leader is concerned,

:29:42.:29:46.

with the called veto, supposed to ensure that the institutions of the

:29:46.:29:50.

European Union were not used in a blanket fashion, to enforce these

:29:50.:29:54.

conditions, that were supposed to ensure that the European Court of

:29:54.:29:57.

Justice was kept out of things and the rest, all that has gone by the

:29:57.:30:01.

board, hasn't it? Britain's overriding interest is truly

:30:01.:30:06.

protected. That is to put the single market, that preserved front

:30:06.:30:10.

and centre, in all these negotiations, to make sure that is

:30:10.:30:14.

preserved. Furthermore, it is in our interest to make sure the

:30:14.:30:18.

eurozone gets back on its feet, financially. We are part of that

:30:18.:30:22.

process. There is not a single safeguard for the City in these

:30:22.:30:25.

proposals, which is what your leader said he was most concerned

:30:25.:30:29.

about. There is no treaty without safeguards either. That is the

:30:29.:30:32.

critical point. No treaty is going ahead without safeguards. Thank you

:30:32.:30:35.

very much. In a few minutes we will hear from

:30:36.:30:40.

one of the heros of the Egyptian revolution, the former Google

:30:41.:30:45.

worker, Wael Ghonim. But first, in the past eight years, over 100

:30:45.:30:48.

mentally ill people have died either while the police were

:30:48.:30:52.

supposedly looking after them, or following what is called police

:30:52.:30:56.

contact. How come some of them are our most vulnerable fellow citizens.

:30:56.:31:02.

It is not just the fact of the deaths, it is shou such deaths are

:31:02.:31:07.

investigated. We -- how such deaths are investigated. We report on how

:31:07.:31:10.

a musician died at a police station, his family believe there is

:31:10.:31:13.

evidence that will show what happened, but four years on they

:31:13.:31:23.
:31:23.:31:25.

still don't know why it did. He was a mu circumstance artist, he

:31:25.:31:29.

did modelling, he travelled all -- he was a musician, an artist, he

:31:29.:31:33.

did modelling, he travelled all over the world. He was really

:31:33.:31:41.

talented, always doing impressions, he was a dancer. We miss him very

:31:41.:31:49.

much. He was charming. Sean Rigg's family are proud of how

:31:49.:31:53.

their brother lived, coping with mental illness, this is where they

:31:53.:32:01.

believe he died, the back yard of Brixton Police Station. Right here?

:32:01.:32:05.

For nearly four years they have been trying to find out how and why

:32:05.:32:09.

it happened. Raising serious concerns about the way people

:32:09.:32:15.

needing psychiatric care are ending up in the hands of the police, with

:32:15.:32:19.

disastrous and tragic consequences. # No

:32:19.:32:24.

Sean Rigg had struggled with, and for the most part, overcome mental

:32:24.:32:28.

health issues. At the age of 40, he was trying to build a reputation as

:32:28.:32:34.

a musician, while living, in what the mental health service calls, a

:32:34.:32:37.

low-support hospital. In August 2008, he stopped taking his

:32:37.:32:42.

medication, and his illness was becoming apparent.

:32:42.:32:46.

What we know is that Sean was having a breakdown on the day, the

:32:47.:32:51.

21st of August, there were several calls from the hostel made to the

:32:51.:32:55.

police for them, for assistance to take him to a place of safety. For

:32:55.:33:00.

example a hospital, not a police station.

:33:00.:33:03.

We understand the hostel in Balham made at least four calls to the

:33:03.:33:10.

police over several hours. But by 7.00pm, no police had arrived, and

:33:10.:33:13.

Sean Rigg, agitated and unstable, walked out into the south London

:33:13.:33:18.

streets. He was displaying behaviour which

:33:18.:33:23.

they say was bizarre. He just had a pair of white trousers and shoes,

:33:23.:33:27.

and two members of the public noticed that this man was behaving

:33:27.:33:31.

strangely. They reported that to the police. That is why the police

:33:31.:33:36.

were called? That is why the police were called. This time there was a

:33:36.:33:42.

police response. At 7.40 on New Park Road, four officers in a van

:33:42.:33:47.

spotted Sean Rigg. He was bare chested, they gave chase.

:33:47.:33:51.

They eventually caught him here on the Weir Estate, arresting him for

:33:51.:33:55.

a public order offence. Sean Rigg's family believe he was injured while

:33:55.:34:02.

being restrained and put in the back of a police van.

:34:02.:34:07.

They should have known that Sean was suffering from a mental illness,

:34:07.:34:12.

and therefore restraint for a personal that has such an illness

:34:12.:34:16.

is tantermount that you have to be more careful. By the time the van

:34:16.:34:22.

had driven the 2.5 miles to Brixton Police Station, it was 7.53, it was

:34:22.:34:28.

then parked in the yard for over ten minutes, before Sean Rigg

:34:28.:34:31.

emerged. More than an hour after arriving at Brixton Police Station,

:34:31.:34:35.

Sean Rigg was taken to hospital, where he was pronounced dead. The

:34:35.:34:39.

family, distraught, wanted an explanation. Fearing a cover-up,

:34:39.:34:44.

two days after his death, they filmed the station yard. Including

:34:44.:34:51.

the CCTT cameras overlooking the cage where he was placed. Is --

:34:51.:34:58.

CCTV cameras overlooking where the cage he was placed.

:34:58.:35:08.
:35:08.:35:32.

The family ensured everything was For all those assurances, the

:35:32.:35:37.

family later learned the vital tapes didn't, in fact, exist. The

:35:37.:35:39.

independent Police Complaints Authority, who had first told them

:35:39.:35:44.

there were no outdoor cameras, now said there were in fact outdoor

:35:44.:35:49.

cameras, but they weren't working. What obscured footage the family

:35:49.:35:56.

have seen from indoor cameras, is, they say, disturbing.

:35:56.:36:00.

Sean is evidently in and out of consciousness. He's actually

:36:00.:36:05.

literally dying. You suspect he was in a bad way? While he was in the

:36:05.:36:09.

van? We're pretty sure he was in a bad way, or there was some medical

:36:09.:36:16.

situation going on. While he was in the van. On the CCTV footage,

:36:16.:36:20.

clearly an officer says, "if he dies in here, we will all be in the

:36:20.:36:25.

shit". The Riggs also want to know why the

:36:25.:36:34.

area where their brother was first destained, Weir Road, wasn't

:36:34.:36:38.

forensically examined, as a place of death. The final responsibility

:36:38.:36:42.

falls on the IPCC. There is a golden hour where evidence needs to

:36:42.:36:48.

be looked at, forensically, to try to shed some light on what happened.

:36:48.:36:52.

This is the crucial hour after an event? The crucial hour. It seems

:36:52.:36:58.

ridiculous that the police decided not to go down there.

:36:58.:37:02.

Sean Rigg's case is far from unique. His family are at the forefront of

:37:02.:37:06.

a campaign over all deaths in police custody. It is a movement

:37:06.:37:10.

sparked by the death of another black man with mental health issues,

:37:10.:37:12.

Roger Sylvester, who died after being restrained by police in

:37:13.:37:17.

London in the 1990s. Over the last eight years, over 400 people have

:37:17.:37:22.

died in police custody, or after police contact. Nearly 0% have

:37:22.:37:26.

mental health problems. -- 30% have mental health problems.

:37:26.:37:31.

The campaigning group, INQUEST, is currently investigating 18 such

:37:31.:37:36.

cases. There is no proper central scrutiny of critical inquest

:37:36.:37:40.

verdicts or coroners' recommendations. We have had report

:37:40.:37:44.

after report, that has highlighted how police custody is an

:37:44.:37:49.

inappropriate place for people with mental health problems. Yet we have

:37:49.:37:52.

not seen proper, accountable learning in action from cross

:37:52.:37:59.

Government agencies. Four years a the IPCC said the

:37:59.:38:02.

problem was critical and demanded the police identified as having

:38:02.:38:07.

mental health issues, known as section 163 cases, should be taken,

:38:07.:38:11.

by the police, to a hospital. But Newsnight has found that is not

:38:11.:38:15.

happening. Cases still aren't properly recorded. We asked all 44

:38:15.:38:22.

police forces in England and Wales, where their Section 136 cases ended

:38:22.:38:27.

up. Of the 40 that responded 18 were unable to give figures. Of

:38:27.:38:32.

those who could, 14 forces, nearly two-thirds of them, were still

:38:32.:38:36.

taking all their mental health cases to a police station. The

:38:36.:38:40.

watchdog, the IPCC, aren't blaming the police, but the lack of mental

:38:40.:38:43.

health facilities. There is no reason at all why a police force

:38:43.:38:47.

would not take someone to a place of safety if one were available.

:38:47.:38:51.

Isn't it worrying they haven't kept the figures? It is worrying they

:38:51.:38:56.

haven't kept the figures, it is unfortunate, that is not the

:38:56.:38:59.

principle issue, people with mental health problems shouldn't go to

:38:59.:39:02.

police cells, it is simple as that. Given this is a situation, are you

:39:02.:39:06.

concerned with the way police are handling mental health cases?

:39:06.:39:09.

Police officers have to ensure they are trained to deal with people

:39:09.:39:16.

that they are restraining, that can be particularly difficult when they

:39:16.:39:20.

are mental health patients. This will never be an exact science.

:39:20.:39:26.

Sean Rigg's family have no faith in the IPCC, they feel the ostensibly

:39:26.:39:30.

independent watchdog is aunch blind to the failings of the police. What

:39:30.:39:34.

the Rigg have found out they say they have had to discover for

:39:34.:39:38.

themselves, in an endless round of legal meetings. This is your life

:39:38.:39:41.

now? It has been for the last three-and-a-half years. Clearly we

:39:41.:39:46.

would rather be doing something else. Our life changed the day Sean

:39:46.:39:52.

died, completely. The Riggs and others note that no police officer

:39:52.:39:58.

has ever been convicted after a death in custody. They say the IPCC

:39:58.:40:01.

is toothless. Why aren't these cases treated like criminal

:40:01.:40:04.

investigations? They are treated like criminal investigations. We

:40:04.:40:10.

have a 24/7 callout facilities for an Article Two cautious a death

:40:10.:40:15.

following police contact. The IPCC has 130 investigators to cover the

:40:15.:40:22.

whole of the country on a 24/67 basis, it is impossible -- 24/7

:40:22.:40:28.

basis, it is impossible to be everywhere at one time. These have

:40:28.:40:32.

to be dealt with in a court of law or coroners' inquest, that is the

:40:32.:40:35.

time to investigate whether it has been investigated robustly or not.

:40:35.:40:39.

It has to stand up to investigation. It is too late, if you bungle

:40:39.:40:42.

collecting evidence it is too late? There is no evidence we have

:40:42.:40:49.

bungled collecting evidence. This summer, when the inquest into

:40:49.:40:52.

the death of Sean Rigg is scheduled to start, it will be four years

:40:52.:40:57.

since his death. The Rigg family believe it is their last chance of

:40:57.:41:02.

finding what really happened to their brother. And why.

:41:02.:41:07.

I really feel that they didn't care enough about Sean, to give him the

:41:07.:41:11.

help he needed. Perhaps they thought he was a nobody, he had no

:41:11.:41:16.

family, he was trouble, you know, just need to sweep him off the

:41:16.:41:19.

street. If they had afforded him the care that any human being

:41:19.:41:25.

deserves, we believe that Shaun would have had a chance. -- Sean

:41:26.:41:33.

would have had a chance. This time last year we were all agog at the

:41:33.:41:36.

unprecedented, the unimaginable, spectacle of Egyptians demanding a

:41:36.:41:40.

new Government, they succeeded, at least in the first task of getting

:41:40.:41:44.

rid of President Mubarak, because the regime did not comprehend, it

:41:44.:41:49.

had not the fores to resist the power of popular dissent, that

:41:49.:41:52.

could be mobilised by new technology. It was in the words of

:41:52.:41:57.

the Egyptian who is credited with FA sill tee Tateing much of it,

:41:57.:42:05.

revolution -- facilitating much of it, revolution 2.0. Che Guvara was

:42:05.:42:09.

a doctor before revolutionly, Wael Ghonim, a computer executive. In

:42:09.:42:13.

June last year, he saw a photo of a young Egyptian tortured and killed

:42:13.:42:18.

by the authorities, he burst into tears, then he created a Facebook

:42:18.:42:22.

page, and within minutes a digital tsunami was unleashed.

:42:22.:42:27.

People who had known nothing but dictatorship, grasped the

:42:27.:42:31.

possibility of change. Wael Ghonim himself only became an

:42:32.:42:35.

international figure upon his release from 11 days under arrest.

:42:35.:42:39.

TRANSLATION: I want to say sorry to every mother and father who lost

:42:39.:42:44.

their sons, it is the fault of all those holding on to power.

:42:44.:42:48.

Overwhelmed, he walked off camera, and into calls for him to take on

:42:48.:42:52.

the role of leader of the revolution. These he resisted. The

:42:52.:42:57.

Egyptian revolution, though, remains unfinished. Yet it has

:42:57.:43:01.

already proved the potency of Ghonin's slogan, "the power of the

:43:01.:43:07.

people can be greater than the people in power". He's with us now.

:43:07.:43:12.

You had lived years and years with a regime of dictatorship, what was

:43:12.:43:19.

it, do you think, that changed in your country that made it collapse

:43:19.:43:26.

where the position was untenable? believe that dictatorship cannot

:43:26.:43:32.

live in a new age. The main reason is that we're talking about a new

:43:32.:43:36.

generation that is basically more empowered and communicate more with

:43:36.:43:40.

the rest of the world. They see what happens to the people. I

:43:40.:43:46.

remember the first time I went outside Egypt to the US, the one

:43:46.:43:53.

comment I mentioned to my friends back home, guys we're being fooled.

:43:53.:43:58.

We could live a much better life than the life we have. With more

:43:58.:44:04.

and more Egyptians being exposed to the world, as well as communicating

:44:04.:44:08.

together, and with more and more the regime is becoming brutal,

:44:08.:44:11.

because no-one is held accountable for the mistakes they are doing.

:44:11.:44:14.

They are always doing the right thing. Mubarak never did a wrong

:44:14.:44:19.

thing during his 30 years in power. So with all of that happening,

:44:19.:44:25.

Egypt was ready, but everyone was scared. When Tunisia happened,

:44:25.:44:30.

everyone saw the Tunisian model as such an inspiration. It wasn't

:44:30.:44:34.

really the page where I was the leader. People looked at Tunisia

:44:34.:44:39.

and said this should happen in Egypt, we are in a much worse state

:44:39.:44:45.

than what what happened in Tunisia. What was it about that photograph,

:44:45.:44:49.

which clearly, deeply distressed you, but became a catalyst for a

:44:49.:44:54.

big social change. What was it about it? I think that, there are

:44:54.:45:01.

so many people dying, and sometimes, without really lots of reasoning,

:45:01.:45:06.

or overanalysis, people pick up a story and it becomes viral. If we

:45:06.:45:15.

want to think of some reasons, Khaled Saeed was a young, middle-

:45:15.:45:19.

class Egyptian, his photo shows he was brutally tortured, simply meant

:45:19.:45:24.

a lot to a lot of Egyptians. He was, a lot of people felt he was one of

:45:24.:45:30.

them, the name of the page, when I made it, there was no plans of it,

:45:30.:45:34.

I thought we are all like Khaled Saeed, we can be like him, get

:45:34.:45:38.

killed in the street and nobody will be held accountability. We are

:45:38.:45:46.

all suffering just like how he suffered. It was the possibility of

:45:46.:45:50.

modern media that made efrbg have access to that story, and the

:45:50.:45:55.

opportunity -- everybody have access to that story and have the

:45:55.:45:58.

opportunity to express themselves? The best thing that happened in

:45:58.:46:02.

Egypt in the last ten years the decentralisation of mainstream

:46:02.:46:06.

media. This happened in different areas, one of the private channels.

:46:06.:46:09.

Despite the fact that the regime, I mentioned it in the book, I was

:46:09.:46:15.

talking in detail about that, the regime was pressuring the owners of

:46:15.:46:18.

the channels, it still opened a wind development the Internet,

:46:18.:46:22.

people are much braver behind the keyboard than in real life. It is a

:46:22.:46:27.

fact. The Internet made a lot of people think that, I am not alone

:46:27.:46:32.

there are other people who think exactly like I do. The second is we

:46:32.:46:36.

can do an action together. We can collaberate on doing something, and

:46:36.:46:41.

saying no, we don't agree with what is going on. Also disseminating the

:46:41.:46:45.

truth. When the state media always promoted lies about the regime and

:46:45.:46:49.

how great it is, and how Mubarak is bringing stability to the country,

:46:49.:46:55.

and how everyone is enjoying life, and selling it on air 24/7. That

:46:55.:46:59.

didn't work, when people went on- line they knew the truth.

:46:59.:47:04.

Revolution 2.0, it is not completed yet, you have still not got a new

:47:04.:47:08.

President? I believe that the revolution is a process. We are

:47:08.:47:12.

undergoing a process. Egypt is recovering from 60 years of

:47:12.:47:15.

military rule, which haven't been completed yet, as you have

:47:15.:47:20.

mentioned. As well as 30 years of dictatorship. The next, most

:47:20.:47:24.

critical phase, at the moment, is that a complete power transition

:47:24.:47:31.

happens, by electing a petd and all the executives and -- President and

:47:32.:47:37.

all the executives and power moves from the army to an elected

:47:37.:47:41.

President. You are sure that is going to happen? I will do my best

:47:41.:47:44.

to make it happen. That is enough for today, more tomorrow, good

:47:44.:47:54.
:47:54.:48:14.

for today, more tomorrow, good night.

:48:15.:48:19.

Another frosty start. In the morning it is cold outside. Once

:48:19.:48:25.

more it will stay cold all week. Cloud in eastern areas, working

:48:25.:48:29.

westwards. Anywhere in the thicker cloud may be one or two flakes of

:48:29.:48:34.

snow. Not expecting too many problems. A fou flakes here and

:48:34.:48:38.

there. Brightening up in northern England, same in the East Midlands,

:48:38.:48:42.

in the West Midlands, south-east England and east Wales, it will be

:48:42.:48:46.

cloudy, after a bright start. South-West England, where it should

:48:46.:48:49.

be a brighter day, and Pembrokeshire, brighter spells.

:48:49.:48:54.

Where the sun is out, temperatures only reaching two or three. The

:48:54.:48:57.

cloud pushing in across North Wales, providing one or two snow showers.

:48:58.:49:01.

There could be one or two pushing on to the east coast of Northern

:49:01.:49:05.

Ireland. Generally across Northern Ireland, a brighter day than on

:49:05.:49:08.

Monday. Sunny skies across the Highlands, temperatures only

:49:08.:49:14.

getting above freezing. One or two snow showers possible on the east

:49:14.:49:18.

coast of Scotland. Edinburgh a brighter day, it is cold, starting

:49:18.:49:23.

with a frost, temperatures barely reaching two or three. Showers

:49:23.:49:26.

again after cloudy conditions, Wednesday promises a bit more

:49:26.:49:30.

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