Browse content similar to 30/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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think most people think it is right. job for a salary, as I do, you | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
would have to do something exceptional for a bonus. The bonus | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
structures are too complicated and big. Let's take a look at the long- | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
term incentive bonus, that is �4 million apparently or possibly, | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
should he get that? We don't know the details of that. I would say | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
again, the board should exercise discretion and shareholders as well. | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
You don't think there should be an incentive of any kind? | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
incentive is to do a good job for the salary of more than a million. | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
We don't know the detail of the bonus structure. What about the | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
investment banking part of RBS who is entitled to another �4 million | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
on top of his bonus, should he get it? It goes to a wider issue, about | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
how banks are run. You know what the performance of the bank is? | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
is not just banks that are majority held by tax-payers, it is other | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
banks as well. We have heard from shareholders of Barclays that they | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
are urging moderation as well. We need to see that moderation. This | :13:10. | :13:18. | |
is the one you can hold forth on, you invented this system? When | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
ordinary people are seeing no pay increases and people are losing | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
their jobs. I don't think it is right you are getting the excessive | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
bonuses, whether owned by the taxpayer or not. It is wrong | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
everywhere? I think it is right that shareholders, whether it be | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
the taxpayer, or whether it be the pension funds, urge moderation, and | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
urge, not to go down this route of excessive bonus and pay. That was | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
part of the reason that caused the financial crisis in the first place. | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
We don't want to see that happening again. We need a fairer system, but | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
also a system that doesn't build up the bubbles in the future. You say | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
no rewards for achievement. failure. Either for achievement or | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
failure. Why don't you argue that the whole bank be taken over and | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
run as a national bank by a bunch of politicians or bureaucrats? | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
Stephen Hester receives a decent salary for doing the job he's doing. | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
A very large salary for doing the job he's doing, that should be the | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
incentive to do the job. Bonuses have got all out of kilter, bonuses | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
should be for doing something exceptional, not just your job. If | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
you look at the banks this year, they have seen their share prices | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
fall, they have laid off workers. Many of them are not meeting their | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
lending targets either. I don't see in those circumstances how it is | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
right to pay people at the top of those banks, big bonuses, when they | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
haven't added value and they are not creating wealth in this country. | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
The argument is you attract talent, supposing Stephen Hester was to do | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
what the President of the CBI thinks he might do, and say, well, | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
sod this for a game of soldiers, I'm off, would that be all right? | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
With all respect, the idea these bonuses and this high pay has | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
attracted the right people, that was said leading up to the crisis, | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
that you had to pay the huge bonuses, look where that got us. | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
you not care if he resigns? That seems to be totally overplayed, the | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
board has said it is not on the cards. You don't care? I don't | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
think there is a risk of doing that. Stephen Hester has done the right | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
thing in declining that bonus payout. He has done the right thing, | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
it is a shame the Government didn't come in earlier. But we should not | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
be seeing these excessive bonuses when a company is laying off | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
workers, when it is not meeting its lending targets and its share price | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
has fallen by 40% as well. All but two of the members of the | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
European Union, we are of course one of the two, have agreed the | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
basis of a new fiscal treaty, which will restore confidence in the euro, | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
they hope. The problem, of course, is that the eurozone crisis has | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
already demonstrated that you can't create confidence just by saying | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
there is no need to worry. The immediate test is Greece, the | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
Germans, who have the disadvantage of an unhappy history, but the | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
great advantage of being the people who pay most of Europe's bills, | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
want to mechanism that can keep the Greek Government and others honest. | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
Mark Urban is in Brussels. This summit is supposed to be about | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
growth, but austerity still the only game in town? Absolutely. You | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
could say today's meeting was about trying to find a balance between | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
ideas on how Europe gets out of this recession. The growth ideas | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
were being put by people who feel stimulus is essential, the | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
austerity ones embodied in this fiscal compact we have heard about | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
over the last few months, which is really a German-designed mechanism, | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
for keeping a tight grip on Government spending in the other | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
side of the argument. Surprise, surprise, despite some commitments | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
towards greater growth and helping with job creation, the German view | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
of this prevailed, they have got this document further down the road | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
to being fully adopted, and they are very pleased. Important as | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
getting out of recession might be, many people argue this really isn't | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
the critical issue facing the EU at the moment, it is that crisis with | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
Greece, where the Greek Government could run out of money within a | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
couple of days. And the other issue people are talking about is | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
Germany's continued failure to put more money towards the stability | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
funds that would be used to save other eurocountries, like Italy. | :17:11. | :17:19. | |
German leadership, in all cases, is critical. A general strike hit | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
Belgium today, stopping trains and closing factories, Europe is | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
soozing up, with countries going back -- seizing up, with countries | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
going back into recession, and protests against austerity plans. | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
As European leaders sought other means of transport into this city, | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
they faced criticism for ducking the most pressing issues. | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
There are two overhanging issues that the eurozone needs to deal | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
with, one is Greece, and the other one is what to do with the size of | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
the bailout funds, the rescue mechanisms, neither of those are on | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
the table here. When we talk to officials about why they are here, | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
they are acidously waiting until the Greek debt restructuring deal | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
is completed in Athens, that is not done yet. David Cameron was back | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
here for the first time since last December's British veto, but talk a | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
different language. This is a European council where we need to | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
get serious about the growth agenda in Europe. Completing the single | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
market, signing trade deals with the fastest-growing parts of the | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
world, and it means a serious effort at deregulation, | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
particularly for small businesses, so they can create the jobs and | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
growth we need. So what happened to the vital UK | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
interests he sought to protect last time? There has been slight | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
diplomatic movement, yes, but it is more a case now of going with the | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
flow. Clearly the veto is being slightly | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
watered down now, in that the UK does seem to be prepared to axe qi | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
he is in the use of the institutions. I think that is an | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
acceptance of the fact they didn't have much choice about it. You can | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
hardly complain against the ECJ and complain against it taking more | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
decisions, the Liberal Democrats with their desire to sign up to | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
everything that comes out of Europe are going to prove difficult in the | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
coalition. After the meeting Mr Cameron insisted he hadn't rolled | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
over on December's veto. They have had to make a treaty outside the EU. | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
They would prefer to have it inside the EU, which is why they are | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
already talking about trying to bring it back inside the EU. To | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
argue the veto doesn't matter seems to me to be bizarre. We are not in | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
this treaty, part of it, we are not bound by it, we don't have to | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
ratify it, we don't have to take it to the British parliament, that is | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
what the viet toe secures you. Central to -- Veto secures you. | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
Central to Mr Cameron's approach, making common cause with Germany, | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
the real power in this place. That means public smiles, but also quiet | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
pleading for Germany to commit more money to the EU's bailout reserves, | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
rather than continue its bad- tempered spat with Greece over the | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
austerity package. Something that makes the possible need for those | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
funds more likely. It has to be challenged, because | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
who else, if not the Germans, should have learned the lesson of | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
history. It was the Chancellor in the Republic who did the same as | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
what we see now, in a depression phase for Germany, with six million | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
unemployed people. He said we have to tient the belts, and we all know | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
-- tighten the belts, we all know it led to the Third Reich, it led | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
to the catastrophy and of Europe. Today's Belgian strike extended to | :20:24. | :20:31. | |
this Audi plant on the fringes of Brussels. It was an act of | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
industrial disobedience against German bosses, corporate and as | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
fiscal enforces of Europe. Inside the summit, Germany stood firm, | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
particularly in its reluctance to put more money into the euro rescue | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
fund. It was surprising to me at Davos, you saw leader after leader, | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
Christine Lagarde, Timothy Geithner, French, American, British, France | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
calling on Europe to increase the size of its mechanism, the one | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
voice against it was the keynote address by Angela Merkel who said, | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
no. Everyone now has argued until you get the bailout mechanism to | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
the size where the markets say, OK, we believe you are serious now, the | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
attacks on the sovereign bonds of the periphery are going to continue, | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
she has resisted. In that she is critical, she is isolated but | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
critical. The German approach may now be | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
questioned by many, but the fiscal compact with its strict spending | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
limits moved another step forward today. The meeting concluded with | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
agreement among 25 on more detailed terms. The treaty on stability co- | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
ordination and governance in the EMU has also been finalised, it | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
took not so long to agree on it. It will be signed in March, and I | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
think the fact that it was possible to come to an agreement, not only | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
with all the countries, but by 25 members of the European Union was | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
indeed very impressive. One of the reasons for the grid lock in Europe | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
at the moment, on the big issues, is an absence of leadership or | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
fresh ideas. David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy, for example, are | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
very reluctant to challenge Chancellor Mercury on her austerity | :22:14. | :22:24. | |
:22:24. | :22:26. | ||
policies. Now d Al-Khalili Merkel on her austerity policies. -- -- | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
Chancellor Merckel on her austerity policies. Mario Monti, he in | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
Brussels has been a phenomenon as a commissioner for ten years. He has | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
done a brilliant performance. He is the one who gets the whole picture, | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
who captures the situation. He came to Berlin with clear proposal, I | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
think he's the, if you want the secret leader of this bunch of | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
European leaders, and I like this. He's an economist, he is an expert, | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
and at the moment, he's one of the toughest politicians in the | :22:59. | :23:08. | |
European Union. Mitly, Spain and Greece are struggling with bugetry | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
discipline, even before the compact is considered. Whether or not De | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
Montfort can challenge the German doctrine of austerity, when | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
Chancellor Merkel has to write the checks. | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
We are joined by our guest from Athens and Europe. With me in the | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
studio is Joe Johnson, a Conservative MP who used to write | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
the FT's column. Why are those members involved like lie to take | :23:41. | :23:51. | |
:23:51. | :23:53. | ||
these restraints any more seriously than the last ones. I think the | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
fiscal compact will give the possibility that all the measures | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
are decided now in a positive way for the fiscal stability. But that | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
we also at the same time have now the room to manoeuvre to talk more | :24:07. | :24:17. | |
:24:17. | :24:19. | ||
about growth and structural changes. Do you like the sound of these | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
restraints? With only focusing on the one side of the equation, which | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
is who is writing the cheque and the input side, if you wish, not | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
really focusing on the output, which is basically growth, and what | :24:33. | :24:43. | |
:24:43. | :24:44. | ||
would actually be the exit from the crisis. These conditions that | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
Germany is talking about, their cuts in pensions, budget, minimum | :24:49. | :24:58. | |
wage, is any of that going to help Greece to grow? What will help | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
Greece to grow is structural reforms, deregulation of the market. | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
Many of these reforms are reflected in the austerity package, but not | :25:07. | :25:14. | |
all of it. I think the overall weight, the burden on the fiscal | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
changes, is really not put in the right focus. I think in this new | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
package we have a different focus. That is being negotiated as we | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
speak. That is looking forward to more structural reforms, more | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
deregulations, versus fiscal changes alone. How does it look to | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
you? I think it is great that they are focusing on competitiveness as | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
closely as they are. The eurozone will shrink by one percentage point, | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
GDP, this year. We are acutely exposed to that here in the UK. | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
Measures, for example, as it was said, to deregulate, to exempt | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
small businesses from new regulation, to strike new trade | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
deals with countries such as Korea, and there is one in India to be | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
discussed in Delhi. That is great news. Do you worry that some of | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
these restraints may squeeze the life out of a country like Greece? | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
It is already squeezing the life out of our country. Go on? I think | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
they have to see we need a mixture of these austerity measures. I | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
think only fiscal discipline is department for the long run. But on | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
the other side, it is also important that now Greece does | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
structural changes. Making it possible for the economy to be | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
balanced, which is necessary for structural measures to get to more | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
competitiveness, and that means, for example, to get rid of wrong | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
regulations. But you are talking about cutting what, 150,000 | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
Government jobs, cutting defence, cutting pensions, cutting the | :26:55. | :27:02. | |
minimum wage, what do you imagine that is going to do to Greece? | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
is the alternative. If we continue to finance Greece on that level, | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
Greece will be bankrupt, it will never become competitive. That is | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
the mistake of 30 years of politics that has to be changed. All the | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
countries have to do such things, and we see now in every country in | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
the eurozone, it is stronger than the United States, less deficit, | :27:22. | :27:31. | |
they have a better economic show nan the UK, -- than the UK, and | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
less inflation, I think we are on the straight track. With Monti, as | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
rightly mentioned, the leader in Italy, that makes all the | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
difference to show it is possible to combine fiscal measures, keeping | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
the rules, keeping the rules which were not kept in the last ten years, | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
and make it possible to build on that growth. Do you worry about | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
social unrest, that sort of thing, in Greece, if these conditions are | :27:59. | :28:09. | |
:28:09. | :28:09. | ||
adhered to? I think what generates more upset is the bad media that | :28:09. | :28:17. | |
has been going on for the last few years. About Greece. Greeks are | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
rather proud people, they have been doing their share of austerity. | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
Seven different waves of austerity measures have been taken. So, they | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
are becoming, I have to admit, a little bit impatient with any | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
additional criticisms. Let's be realistic, you wouldn't be in this | :28:36. | :28:43. | |
mess if your Government hadn't told lies about the public financings? | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
- Finances? It is not my Government now that has given any lies. My | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
Government for the last two years has been trying to move all of us | :28:50. | :28:59. | |
out of this. So this is the reality down at the bottom line. When you | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
look at what's been agreed today, and everybody must hope, presumably | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
that it works, what was the point of David Cameron's veto, last time | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
round? The key thing is Britain is part of the solution, not the | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
problem. We are at the table, contributing useful ideas to the | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
negotiation, to the fiscal pact. It has now created the political space | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
for Angela Merkel to do what she needs to do, in terms of giving | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
greater resources to the bailout funds. To eventually looking at the | :29:28. | :29:35. | |
possibility of eurobonds. Germans have got everything they | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
wanted? She has to avoid a revolt back home. There are political | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
restraints she's operating on. far as your leader is concerned, | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
with the called veto, supposed to ensure that the institutions of the | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
European Union were not used in a blanket fashion, to enforce these | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
conditions, that were supposed to ensure that the European Court of | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
Justice was kept out of things and the rest, all that has gone by the | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
board, hasn't it? Britain's overriding interest is truly | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
protected. That is to put the single market, that preserved front | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
and centre, in all these negotiations, to make sure that is | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
preserved. Furthermore, it is in our interest to make sure the | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
eurozone gets back on its feet, financially. We are part of that | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
process. There is not a single safeguard for the City in these | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
proposals, which is what your leader said he was most concerned | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
about. There is no treaty without safeguards either. That is the | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
critical point. No treaty is going ahead without safeguards. Thank you | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
very much. In a few minutes we will hear from | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
one of the heros of the Egyptian revolution, the former Google | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
worker, Wael Ghonim. But first, in the past eight years, over 100 | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
mentally ill people have died either while the police were | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
supposedly looking after them, or following what is called police | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
contact. How come some of them are our most vulnerable fellow citizens. | :30:56. | :31:02. | |
It is not just the fact of the deaths, it is shou such deaths are | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
investigated. We -- how such deaths are investigated. We report on how | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
a musician died at a police station, his family believe there is | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
evidence that will show what happened, but four years on they | :31:13. | :31:23. | |
:31:23. | :31:25. | ||
still don't know why it did. He was a mu circumstance artist, he | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
did modelling, he travelled all -- he was a musician, an artist, he | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
did modelling, he travelled all over the world. He was really | :31:33. | :31:41. | |
talented, always doing impressions, he was a dancer. We miss him very | :31:41. | :31:49. | |
much. He was charming. Sean Rigg's family are proud of how | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
their brother lived, coping with mental illness, this is where they | :31:53. | :32:01. | |
believe he died, the back yard of Brixton Police Station. Right here? | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
For nearly four years they have been trying to find out how and why | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
it happened. Raising serious concerns about the way people | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
needing psychiatric care are ending up in the hands of the police, with | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
disastrous and tragic consequences. # No | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
Sean Rigg had struggled with, and for the most part, overcome mental | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
health issues. At the age of 40, he was trying to build a reputation as | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
a musician, while living, in what the mental health service calls, a | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
low-support hospital. In August 2008, he stopped taking his | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
medication, and his illness was becoming apparent. | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
What we know is that Sean was having a breakdown on the day, the | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
21st of August, there were several calls from the hostel made to the | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
police for them, for assistance to take him to a place of safety. For | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
example a hospital, not a police station. | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
We understand the hostel in Balham made at least four calls to the | :33:03. | :33:10. | |
police over several hours. But by 7.00pm, no police had arrived, and | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
Sean Rigg, agitated and unstable, walked out into the south London | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
streets. He was displaying behaviour which | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
they say was bizarre. He just had a pair of white trousers and shoes, | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
and two members of the public noticed that this man was behaving | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
strangely. They reported that to the police. That is why the police | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
were called? That is why the police were called. This time there was a | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
police response. At 7.40 on New Park Road, four officers in a van | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
spotted Sean Rigg. He was bare chested, they gave chase. | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
They eventually caught him here on the Weir Estate, arresting him for | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
a public order offence. Sean Rigg's family believe he was injured while | :33:55. | :34:02. | |
being restrained and put in the back of a police van. | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
They should have known that Sean was suffering from a mental illness, | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
and therefore restraint for a personal that has such an illness | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
is tantermount that you have to be more careful. By the time the van | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
had driven the 2.5 miles to Brixton Police Station, it was 7.53, it was | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
then parked in the yard for over ten minutes, before Sean Rigg | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
emerged. More than an hour after arriving at Brixton Police Station, | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
Sean Rigg was taken to hospital, where he was pronounced dead. The | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
family, distraught, wanted an explanation. Fearing a cover-up, | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
two days after his death, they filmed the station yard. Including | :34:44. | :34:51. | |
the CCTT cameras overlooking the cage where he was placed. Is -- | :34:51. | :34:58. | |
CCTV cameras overlooking where the cage he was placed. | :34:58. | :35:08. | |
:35:08. | :35:32. | ||
The family ensured everything was For all those assurances, the | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
family later learned the vital tapes didn't, in fact, exist. The | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
independent Police Complaints Authority, who had first told them | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
there were no outdoor cameras, now said there were in fact outdoor | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
cameras, but they weren't working. What obscured footage the family | :35:49. | :35:56. | |
have seen from indoor cameras, is, they say, disturbing. | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
Sean is evidently in and out of consciousness. He's actually | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
literally dying. You suspect he was in a bad way? While he was in the | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
van? We're pretty sure he was in a bad way, or there was some medical | :36:09. | :36:16. | |
situation going on. While he was in the van. On the CCTV footage, | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
clearly an officer says, "if he dies in here, we will all be in the | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
shit". The Riggs also want to know why the | :36:25. | :36:34. | |
area where their brother was first destained, Weir Road, wasn't | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
forensically examined, as a place of death. The final responsibility | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
falls on the IPCC. There is a golden hour where evidence needs to | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
be looked at, forensically, to try to shed some light on what happened. | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
This is the crucial hour after an event? The crucial hour. It seems | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
ridiculous that the police decided not to go down there. | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
Sean Rigg's case is far from unique. His family are at the forefront of | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
a campaign over all deaths in police custody. It is a movement | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
sparked by the death of another black man with mental health issues, | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
Roger Sylvester, who died after being restrained by police in | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
London in the 1990s. Over the last eight years, over 400 people have | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
died in police custody, or after police contact. Nearly 0% have | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
mental health problems. -- 30% have mental health problems. | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
The campaigning group, INQUEST, is currently investigating 18 such | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
cases. There is no proper central scrutiny of critical inquest | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
verdicts or coroners' recommendations. We have had report | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
after report, that has highlighted how police custody is an | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
inappropriate place for people with mental health problems. Yet we have | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
not seen proper, accountable learning in action from cross | :37:52. | :37:59. | |
Government agencies. Four years a the IPCC said the | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
problem was critical and demanded the police identified as having | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
mental health issues, known as section 163 cases, should be taken, | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
by the police, to a hospital. But Newsnight has found that is not | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
happening. Cases still aren't properly recorded. We asked all 44 | :38:15. | :38:22. | |
police forces in England and Wales, where their Section 136 cases ended | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
up. Of the 40 that responded 18 were unable to give figures. Of | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
those who could, 14 forces, nearly two-thirds of them, were still | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
taking all their mental health cases to a police station. The | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
watchdog, the IPCC, aren't blaming the police, but the lack of mental | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
health facilities. There is no reason at all why a police force | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
would not take someone to a place of safety if one were available. | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
Isn't it worrying they haven't kept the figures? It is worrying they | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
haven't kept the figures, it is unfortunate, that is not the | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
principle issue, people with mental health problems shouldn't go to | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
police cells, it is simple as that. Given this is a situation, are you | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
concerned with the way police are handling mental health cases? | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
Police officers have to ensure they are trained to deal with people | :39:09. | :39:16. | |
that they are restraining, that can be particularly difficult when they | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
are mental health patients. This will never be an exact science. | :39:20. | :39:26. | |
Sean Rigg's family have no faith in the IPCC, they feel the ostensibly | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
independent watchdog is aunch blind to the failings of the police. What | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
the Rigg have found out they say they have had to discover for | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
themselves, in an endless round of legal meetings. This is your life | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
now? It has been for the last three-and-a-half years. Clearly we | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
would rather be doing something else. Our life changed the day Sean | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
died, completely. The Riggs and others note that no police officer | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
has ever been convicted after a death in custody. They say the IPCC | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
is toothless. Why aren't these cases treated like criminal | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
investigations? They are treated like criminal investigations. We | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
have a 24/7 callout facilities for an Article Two cautious a death | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
following police contact. The IPCC has 130 investigators to cover the | :40:15. | :40:22. | |
whole of the country on a 24/67 basis, it is impossible -- 24/7 | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
basis, it is impossible to be everywhere at one time. These have | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
to be dealt with in a court of law or coroners' inquest, that is the | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
time to investigate whether it has been investigated robustly or not. | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
It has to stand up to investigation. It is too late, if you bungle | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
collecting evidence it is too late? There is no evidence we have | :40:42. | :40:49. | |
bungled collecting evidence. This summer, when the inquest into | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
the death of Sean Rigg is scheduled to start, it will be four years | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
since his death. The Rigg family believe it is their last chance of | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
finding what really happened to their brother. And why. | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
I really feel that they didn't care enough about Sean, to give him the | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
help he needed. Perhaps they thought he was a nobody, he had no | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
family, he was trouble, you know, just need to sweep him off the | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
street. If they had afforded him the care that any human being | :41:19. | :41:25. | |
deserves, we believe that Shaun would have had a chance. -- Sean | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
would have had a chance. This time last year we were all agog at the | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
unprecedented, the unimaginable, spectacle of Egyptians demanding a | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
new Government, they succeeded, at least in the first task of getting | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
rid of President Mubarak, because the regime did not comprehend, it | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
had not the fores to resist the power of popular dissent, that | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
could be mobilised by new technology. It was in the words of | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
the Egyptian who is credited with FA sill tee Tateing much of it, | :41:57. | :42:05. | |
revolution -- facilitating much of it, revolution 2.0. Che Guvara was | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
a doctor before revolutionly, Wael Ghonim, a computer executive. In | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
June last year, he saw a photo of a young Egyptian tortured and killed | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
by the authorities, he burst into tears, then he created a Facebook | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
page, and within minutes a digital tsunami was unleashed. | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
People who had known nothing but dictatorship, grasped the | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
possibility of change. Wael Ghonim himself only became an | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
international figure upon his release from 11 days under arrest. | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
TRANSLATION: I want to say sorry to every mother and father who lost | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
their sons, it is the fault of all those holding on to power. | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
Overwhelmed, he walked off camera, and into calls for him to take on | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
the role of leader of the revolution. These he resisted. The | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
Egyptian revolution, though, remains unfinished. Yet it has | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
already proved the potency of Ghonin's slogan, "the power of the | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
people can be greater than the people in power". He's with us now. | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
You had lived years and years with a regime of dictatorship, what was | :43:12. | :43:19. | |
it, do you think, that changed in your country that made it collapse | :43:19. | :43:26. | |
where the position was untenable? believe that dictatorship cannot | :43:26. | :43:32. | |
live in a new age. The main reason is that we're talking about a new | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
generation that is basically more empowered and communicate more with | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
the rest of the world. They see what happens to the people. I | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
remember the first time I went outside Egypt to the US, the one | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
comment I mentioned to my friends back home, guys we're being fooled. | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
We could live a much better life than the life we have. With more | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
and more Egyptians being exposed to the world, as well as communicating | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
together, and with more and more the regime is becoming brutal, | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
because no-one is held accountable for the mistakes they are doing. | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
They are always doing the right thing. Mubarak never did a wrong | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
thing during his 30 years in power. So with all of that happening, | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
Egypt was ready, but everyone was scared. When Tunisia happened, | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
everyone saw the Tunisian model as such an inspiration. It wasn't | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
really the page where I was the leader. People looked at Tunisia | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
and said this should happen in Egypt, we are in a much worse state | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
than what what happened in Tunisia. What was it about that photograph, | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
which clearly, deeply distressed you, but became a catalyst for a | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
big social change. What was it about it? I think that, there are | :44:54. | :45:01. | |
so many people dying, and sometimes, without really lots of reasoning, | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
or overanalysis, people pick up a story and it becomes viral. If we | :45:06. | :45:15. | |
want to think of some reasons, Khaled Saeed was a young, middle- | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
class Egyptian, his photo shows he was brutally tortured, simply meant | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
a lot to a lot of Egyptians. He was, a lot of people felt he was one of | :45:24. | :45:30. | |
them, the name of the page, when I made it, there was no plans of it, | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
I thought we are all like Khaled Saeed, we can be like him, get | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
killed in the street and nobody will be held accountability. We are | :45:38. | :45:46. | |
all suffering just like how he suffered. It was the possibility of | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
modern media that made efrbg have access to that story, and the | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
opportunity -- everybody have access to that story and have the | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
opportunity to express themselves? The best thing that happened in | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
Egypt in the last ten years the decentralisation of mainstream | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
media. This happened in different areas, one of the private channels. | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
Despite the fact that the regime, I mentioned it in the book, I was | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
talking in detail about that, the regime was pressuring the owners of | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
the channels, it still opened a wind development the Internet, | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
people are much braver behind the keyboard than in real life. It is a | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
fact. The Internet made a lot of people think that, I am not alone | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
there are other people who think exactly like I do. The second is we | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
can do an action together. We can collaberate on doing something, and | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
saying no, we don't agree with what is going on. Also disseminating the | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
truth. When the state media always promoted lies about the regime and | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
how great it is, and how Mubarak is bringing stability to the country, | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
and how everyone is enjoying life, and selling it on air 24/7. That | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
didn't work, when people went on- line they knew the truth. | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
Revolution 2.0, it is not completed yet, you have still not got a new | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
President? I believe that the revolution is a process. We are | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
undergoing a process. Egypt is recovering from 60 years of | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
military rule, which haven't been completed yet, as you have | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
mentioned. As well as 30 years of dictatorship. The next, most | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
critical phase, at the moment, is that a complete power transition | :47:24. | :47:31. | |
happens, by electing a petd and all the executives and -- President and | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
all the executives and power moves from the army to an elected | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
President. You are sure that is going to happen? I will do my best | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
to make it happen. That is enough for today, more tomorrow, good | :47:44. | :47:54. | |
:47:54. | :48:14. | ||
for today, more tomorrow, good night. | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
Another frosty start. In the morning it is cold outside. Once | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
more it will stay cold all week. Cloud in eastern areas, working | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
westwards. Anywhere in the thicker cloud may be one or two flakes of | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
snow. Not expecting too many problems. A fou flakes here and | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
there. Brightening up in northern England, same in the East Midlands, | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
in the West Midlands, south-east England and east Wales, it will be | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
cloudy, after a bright start. South-West England, where it should | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
be a brighter day, and Pembrokeshire, brighter spells. | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
Where the sun is out, temperatures only reaching two or three. The | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
cloud pushing in across North Wales, providing one or two snow showers. | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
There could be one or two pushing on to the east coast of Northern | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
Ireland. Generally across Northern Ireland, a brighter day than on | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
Monday. Sunny skies across the Highlands, temperatures only | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
getting above freezing. One or two snow showers possible on the east | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
coast of Scotland. Edinburgh a brighter day, it is cold, starting | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
with a frost, temperatures barely reaching two or three. Showers | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
again after cloudy conditions, Wednesday promises a bit more | :49:26. | :49:30. |