Browse content similar to 01/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, the Government has promised to crack down on tax | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
avoidance, yet Newsnight can reveal how it hired a senior public | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
servant on a deal toe minimise his tax bill. | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
-- to minimise his tax bill. Students are already annoyed about | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
the massive increase in fees, but the man who runs the Student Loans | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
Company, had been given a deal by the Government, to avoid tax | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
liability. It is serious, a public servant, perhaps more than anyone | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
else, an employee of the state and Government, ought to be paying all | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
their taxes. How could the Government endorse | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
such an arrangement, where now all that talk of how we're all in it | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
together. Gooden God may have lost his | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
Knighthood, but why should the buck stop there? | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
Pakistan spent the day trying to shake off accusations in a NATO | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
report that it supports the Taliban. What do you think is the most | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
striking ref laugs in the report? It is based -- revelation in the | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
report? This is based on interviews with 4,000 captured Taliban | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
fighters. They think they are winning, of course, there are some | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
signs they might be right. They call this batting for Britain, when | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
the Prime Minister went to India saying aid would generate trade. | :01:26. | :01:36. | |
:01:36. | :01:39. | ||
Has his strategy now been shown to We are, as we have been repeatedly | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
told by this Government, all in this together. Unless, apparently, | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
the Government thinks you're not in it with everyone else. A Newsnight | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
investigation has discovered that cabinet ministers agreed to an | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
arrangement by which one of the country's best paid public servants | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
was able to reduce his tax liability by tens of thousands of | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
pounds. The Government is now trying to | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
find out how many other people it might have agreed similar terms for. | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
The official in question is the boss of the Student Loans Company, | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
whose job, of course, involves making sure others pay their fair | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
share. Richard Watson reports now. There are some people who seem to | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
believe that not paying their fair share of tax is a lifestyle choice, | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
not true. At a time of acute national | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
austerity, the issue of tax avoidance has never been more | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
charged. Millions of people are angered when they feel there is a | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
wealthy group who can pay an army of tax accountants to get out of | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
paying their fair share of tax. Government wants to take action. | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
need to take a tough approach on wealthy individuals and individual | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
companies, to make sure they pay their fair share. Newsnight has | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
discovered that Government officials have helped one of the | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
most senior public servants in the land to avoid paying tax. | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
The man in question is Mr Ed Lester, who was brought in a couple of | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
years ago to bail out the crisis- striken Student Loans Company. He's | :03:14. | :03:23. | |
now one of the country's top public servants, paid by the taxpayer. His | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
salary is worth �200,000 a year. He has struck an extraordinary deal, | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
it is not paid into a bank account, like any other employee, minus tax | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
and national insurance, it is paid into a private service company, | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
based at his home address, here on the River Thames. On our kal | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
layings he would be tens of thousands -- calculation, he would | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
be tens of thousands pounds better off. There is no the Civil Service | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
can act in a way that doesn't set an example for the rest of the | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
world. So you will investigate? the allegations are true we will | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
need to investigate. What is extraordinary is the customs and | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
revenue officials agreed the deal. Why would a public body working | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
directly for a Government department enter into such a deal. | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
In 2009, the Student Loans Company was in crisis, they needed someone | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
to tackle the crisis. Thousands of telephone calls were going | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
unanswered, grants hadn't been paid. It was a complete mess, students | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
weren't getting their money on time. There was a huge backlog of | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
applications. There were a lot of calculation that were wrong. It was | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
a complete mess. We were looking to the organisation, the Student Loans | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
Company, to very quickly sort it out. Ed Lester seemed just the man | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
for the job. He had a strong track record in both the private and | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
public sectors. Here he is, to the left of the universities minister, | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
David Willetts, after a spell as a consultant to Government, he was | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
approached to lead the Student Loans Company in 2010, via a | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
specialist recruitment company. It was David Willetts who was | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
ultimately responsible for his appointment. | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
This correspondent for the investigative journalism website, | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
obtained a dossier of documents under the Freedom of Information | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
Act. They reveal every twist and turn of negotiations to recruit Ed | :05:20. | :05:29. | |
Lester for the job. What was really amazing was, he does not pay any | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
tax or national insurance at source, yet, he is the chief executive, he | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
is the accounting officer to parliament, he's the top man who | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
chases hundreds of thousands, if not millions of students to pay | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
back their loans. But some how he's not got a full-time job. | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
The scanning was, as I described, freezing and not working. | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
months into the job as interim chief executive, Ed Lester appeared | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
before the Public Accounts Committee to explain to MPs how he | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
was reforming the organisation. He also fielded questions about his | :06:01. | :06:09. | |
pay. How much are you costing the taxpayer? My daily charge is �900 a | :06:09. | :06:16. | |
day. That's on a normal working week of five days a week. Yes. | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
But there was no mention of precisely how Mr Lester was being | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
paid, or the cost of his 400-mile commute to the Student Loans | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
Company office in Glasgow. While he shutled from Buckinghamshire to | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
Scotland and back, his pay was transferred to the recruitment firm | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
who hired him, they sent it on to his private service company, the | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
one he runs from his house on the Thames. The arrangement isn't | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
illegal, but the tax savings could be huge. With reduced national | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
insurance payments, and other perks to. Government officials knew the | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
deal was all about saving Ed Lester tax. In one e-mail, a senior civil | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
servant at business innovation and skills, notes his deal is tax | :06:59. | :07:06. | |
efficient. It was -- It was a good deal for Mr | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
Lester, but was it within the tax rules. Some awkward questions | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
emerged about his tax status. Could he be full-time chief executive, in | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
charge of billions of public money, and not an employee, paying tax in | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
the usual way. The Student Loans Company sought | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
advice from their auditors, KPMG, they said Ed Lester should be an | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
employee, an awkward conclusion. The senior civil servant handling | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
Ed Lester's employment said he thought it needed to be challenged. | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
The Student Loans Company went back to the auditors, and KPMG offered a | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
second piece of advice. This time they said it might be possible to | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
persuade Revenue & Customs to grant a special concession, permitting Ed | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
Lester to be paid through his personal service company. Sure | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
enough, the revenue wrote to the Student Loans Company, confirming | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
the deal had been approved. The tax inspector wrote, he's happy to | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
accept the fees paid in respect of Mr Lester's duties may be paid | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
gross. In other words, without tax deducted at source. | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
I think it is very odd. You would expect a civil servant, who is | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
doing a full-time job, appointed to an office, and indeed an accounting | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
officer, which is an anorackish, technical term, but a person who | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
has legal responsibility for how money is spent in the body, to be | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
paid normally with PAYE like anybody else. This story gets more | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
intriguing, three months after the revenue approved the deal, the | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
Student Loans Company decided they liked Ed Lester so much theyn't | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
waed to take him on full-time. Surely as -- wanted to take him on | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
full-time. Surely as full-time chief executive he would have to go | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
on the books as a tax-paying member of staff. | :08:50. | :08:58. | |
His total pay pact, including po news, would be �200,000 a year, | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
with �28,000 on top for commuting to Glasgow and hotel stays. For the | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
second time they agreed to pay him through the company he runs, from | :09:06. | :09:13. | |
his home on the Thames. We asked the former Inland Revenue tax | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
inspector, now a tax accountant, to model how much Ed Lester will be | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
saving in tax. If he's employed he's taking a salary of �182,000, | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
against that he has income tax of �69,000, and employees' national | :09:28. | :09:38. | |
insurance of �7,021. His take home pay is �105,979. A lot of money, | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
but how much better off would he be paid through his private company? | :09:42. | :09:52. | |
So, in his pocket, he would have had �144,987. Quite a difference? | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
significant difference. That's a difference of �40,000. | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
These figures are based on the assumption that Ed Lester is | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
seeking to minimise his tax bill. We can't be sure of the precise | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
figures, because he declined to ask any of our specific questions. We | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
asked whether he disputes that the arrangements were to minimise tax. | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
We asked if it was appropriate for him to be paid through his own | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
company and not PAYE, again, no answer. We asked him how much his | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
personal service company pays in tax, no many to that either. The | :10:27. | :10:37. | |
:10:37. | :10:39. | ||
So how much did ministers really know about Ed Lester's pay deal? A | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
letter from the Student Loans Company to the minister for | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
universities suggests that David Willetts was well informed. The | :10:46. | :10:56. | |
:10:56. | :11:08. | ||
The following week, David Willetts So Government ministers had, in | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
effect, rubber stamped a deal to help a senior civil servant with | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
his tax efficiency. The Department of Disinnovation and | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
skills told us, personal -- Department of Business innovation | :11:21. | :11:31. | |
They emphasised that the deal had been approved by-election Election. | :11:31. | :11:41. | |
:11:41. | :11:44. | ||
The Treasury is clearly concerned by our evidence. In a detailed | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
statement, Danny Alexander has confirmed he's called for an urgent | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
review, and his written to every single a second across Government, | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
asking whether similar deals exist. There is to be an urgent internal | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
audit of such appointments completed by the end of March. It | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
will consider the appropriateness of these deals, and consider the | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
wider costs of lost revenue to the Exchequer, when considering value | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
for money. If such deals are uncovered, the Treasury says it | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
will seek to unwind them. What we would want to see is whether there | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
was a deliberate attempt to set up a tax avoidance scheme. The Public | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
Accounts Committee will scrutinise the evidence. The chair was shocked | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
when we showed her our dossier. is very serious. A public servant, | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
perhaps more than anybody else, an employee of the state, and an | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
employee of the Government, ought to be paying all their taxes in an | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
open, proper and transparent way. Any engagment in tax avoidance by | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
full-time, civil servants, is not acceptable. | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
There is no sign that Mr Lester will be forced to pay income tax as | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
a normal employee, the Treasury seems unable to change his contract, | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
which runs until 2013. But at a time when Government is urging we | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
are all in this together, these revelations are causing | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
considerable unease, the question now is how many other Ed Lester's | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
will be uncovered by the Danny Alexander review. | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
No-one from either the Government or the Student Loans Company wanted | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
to come and tell us why this was the best way of doing things. But | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
joining us now to look at what was going on, we do have Richard Bacon, | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
the Conservative MP, who sits on the Public Accounts Committee, Liam | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
Burns, the President of the National Union of students and | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
Nicola Preston who is a tax barrister from number five chambers. | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
You have written to the Prime Minister, what do you want him to | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
do? I want him to launch a full investigation toe get to the bottom | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
of this, and to answer -- to get to the bottom of this, and answer the | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
question at the end of your report, how many Ed Lesters are there. I | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
saw there was a chief executive officer getting twice the salaries | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
normally, and paid through a personal company. One wonders how | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
much more is going on in the public sector. It is plainly unsuitable | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
and inappropriate, it shouldn't be happening, we have to stamp it out. | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
Even before we aired this report tonight, we have had two e-mails | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
from people suggesting both that it was going on in a particular area | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
of local Government, and it was going on in another area of | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
national Government, so we don't know, but we must assume if there | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
is an investigation no-one else in Government is quite sure? Indeed, | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
we have a very large public sector, it is a �700 billion organisation, | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
we have the health service, local Government, hundreds of quangos of | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
various kinds, one fears this could be more widespread. It has been | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
done in each case on a localised I would sis, and we need to get to | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
the both bottom of it. Are you surprised -- to the bottom of it. | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
Are you surprised by this? What surprises me is the HMRC gave the | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
concession sought, in order to pay Mr Lester gross. It is unusual? | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
is unusual in the first instance, the concession was first applied | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
for when he was on the temporary, the interim appointment. That | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
concession was when extended when he entered into the two-year | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
appointment. It is unusual in someone working full-time, is that | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
the idea? The idea behind the concession was to cover | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
circumstances, such as directors, where trust companies might need, | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
or trust directors might needing to in and sit on a board for a certain | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
period of time. But they weren't employed by the company as such. | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
Certainly the concession that does apply in wider circumstances, but | :15:46. | :15:54. | |
in a case such as this, Mr Lester and his duties and the requirements | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
of his appointment, all seem very consistent with him being an | :15:58. | :16:05. | |
employee of the SLC rather than anyone else. Liam Byrne, whatever | :16:05. | :16:12. | |
you may think of his personal tax arrangement, he did sort out the | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
Student Loans Company, people got their loans? I don't think I'm | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
being too demanding to think it is OK to have someone that is both | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
competent and pays their taxes. I don't think the two are mutually | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
exclusive concepts. There is three things from our point of view. At a | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
time when the Government are saying they don't have the money to pay | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
for state education, and retracting fees. The irony that the person | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
taking our fees is purposely avoiding taxation is a kick in the | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
teeth. Personal stewardship, we have David Willetts, minister for | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
universities, actively trying to get, for profits, into the | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
university sector. If you can't spot something that I think is a | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
scam, so obvious is this, I have no confidence about you bringing for | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
profits in. This is wider than students, this is a generational | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
thing. When we are told the state can't afford to pay your education | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
any more, your education maintenance allowance, that went on | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
beer and CDs, didn't it. The fact we are all some benefit scroungers, | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
don't look to our sector of society, there is somewhere else in society | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
you should look. You used the word "scam", there is nothing wrong | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
necessarily, it was agreed? I'm not calling it illegal, I don't think | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
many people sitting at home would think, hang on, someone appointed | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
on an interim basis, kept on long- term, on a tax efficient basis. No, | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
I'm sorry, that is a scam of public money. I agree with that, it might | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
not be unlawful. It could be, we will look at that. All the people | :17:45. | :17:53. | |
in the film working in the Student Loan Company, as employee for that | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
company, have to pay their taxes. My employees pay tax and do it to | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
have schools and hospitals, I don't think they do it so civil servants | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
can strive to make tax efficient arrangements for a small number of | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
senior civil servants. This was a mistake on the part of David | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
Willetts and Danny Alexander? was certainly a mistake on the part | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
of whoever made the decision. Not having had the chance to know how | :18:18. | :18:26. | |
much they genuinely knew about the, tent of their involvement. That is | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
an important question, the public scrutiny, who was looking at the | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
decisions, a lot of difficult questions will come David | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
Willetts's way on this question. goes to how serious your leader was | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
when talking about cracking down on companies that seek to avoid tax? | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
The fact of the matter is there have been a lot of arrangements, | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
over many years, under Governments of both parties to create | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
situations that are tax efficient for certain individuals. It is very | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
disful, we want a situation, I'm in favour -- distasteful, I'm in | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
favour of lower tax, but we should all apply to the same rules. I made | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
a cheque last week to HMRC, I didn't want to, but it is a law. | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
You as a tax practitioner share that view? The rules are there so | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
that people can organise their affairs to pay as little tax as | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
possible, but it is clear in this case, firstly, that there has been | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
no transparency about what has happened, and secondly, as I have | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
already said, the concession that HMRC have given the SLRC, has been | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
extended over a two-year contract. Is this the sort of thing the | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
Public Accounts Committee ought to investigate? I agree with the | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
chairman in the clip, that should the facts prove as they appear to | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
be, we will need to take a look at it. I can't speak for the whole | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
committee. Would you like to haul David Willetts before you? We don't | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
normally have ministers in front of us, this may be an occasion we need | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
to talk wider than the normal officials. We will want to talk to | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
the officials writing the e-mails saying this isn't good enough, I | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
disagree with the opinion from the accounting firm, we should try | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
harder. It is obvious that a number of people were striving hard to | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
create a tax efficient arrangement, that would have seemed odd toe most | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
people. He may have lost his reputation as a banker, now he may | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
have lost his Knighthood. But Fred Goodwin is experiencing a new | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
career, as a football. He was booted around Westminster like an | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
inflated pig's bladder today, as one person after another tried to | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
use him to score points. Labour MPs who once fawned on him and his pals, | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
wonder how many more should be simply dishonoured. Accusations of | :20:42. | :20:50. | |
hypocrisy flew back and forth in the Commons. We were in the stands. | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
Fred's been shredded, who's next? There are plenty more candidates. | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
At Westminster today some senior voices were warning that the | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
Government has created a mess. I'm concerned that there doesn't | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
seem to have been much process here. I understand why people are angry | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
with Gooden good, I'm not here to defend him -- Fred Goodwin, I'm not | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
here to defend him, he was the author of his own misfortunes. But | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
you go after one individual, and there was more than one person | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
involved in this, there is a process that is obscure, many of us | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
hadn't heard of the Forfeiture Committee, and it meets a week | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
after the announcement, and he's striped of the Knighthood. It is a | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
similar thing the Government is doing at RBS, going after one | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
individual. There doesn't seem to be principles against which we can | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
judge people N a country like our's, where we pride ourselves in the | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
rule of law and due process, that is big problem for us. The point is, | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
of course, the former Sir Fred, was not alone in his mistakes. The | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
Business Secretary today says the case is useful as a beginning, a | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
start of the differenciation between good and bad dankers? | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
does help to establish the point that there were some bankers who | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
were highly cupable, he was one of them, and they need to make a | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
contribution. If we were in the business of | :22:15. | :22:22. | |
degonging people, who might we start with? What about Sir tomorrow | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
McKillop, knighted for contributions to the drug industry, | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
he was chairman of RBS when the bank went bust. Sir kl lum | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
McCartney knighted for services to the finance industry, he was in | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
charge of the Financial Services Authority when all of those banks | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
went bust. And while we're on the subject, what about Alan Greenspan, | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
given an honourary Knighthood in 2002, the former Fed chairman was | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
given his for contribution to global economic stability. You | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
might have noticed that ain't looking so clever any more. | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
The only way you can ever guarantee that you won't make mistakes is not | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
to try anything. If that is what we want to engineer in people it is a | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
very bad idea. You need people who will make decisions that involve | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
risk as they all do. In those circumstances you would have to | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
hand back your pay in the past, in some cases, or your honours n this | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
particular case, then I would suggest they start giving out | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
honours on elastic rather than ribbon, they will be pulling an | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
awful lot back, people do make mistakes. It says something about | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
where the politicians think the public is on the Goodwin Knighthood, | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
that at Prime Minister's Questions today, not one opposition MP | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
accused the Government of using Gooden God as a smoke screen. | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
Although that's what many of -- Fred Goodwin as a smoke screen. | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
Although that is what many of them think. His name wasn't even | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
mentioned, instead the Labour leader pushed for more transparency | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
on pay. Why is the gentleman in favour of things now in opposition | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
of things he never did in Government, some might call it | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
opposition, others hypocrisy. will tell him what hypocrisy is, it | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
is saying he will stop a million pound bonus to Stephen Hester, and | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
then nodding it through. I have to say to him, I think we | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
have now heard it all. Because he says that the class war against the | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
bankers is going to be led by him and his cabinet of millionaires, I | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
don't think it is going to wash, frankly. All of this is being | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
watched with concern in the City. Today there was a conference on the | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
subject of rebranding banking. If you came along as an outsider, you | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
had to be ready with a face. Because, sooner or later, someone | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
was going to tell you that, you know, a million pounds isn't | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
actually that much for a bonus. And you have to decide whether to nod | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
like an unshockable man of the world, or stair at them like they | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
are a lunatic. We have to accept the fact that we are living in a | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
free, global market, that is not saying pay them all football-star | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
salaries, but they have to be well paid. It has just gone too far, | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
with the whole crisis being blamed entirely on the bankers, because a | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
few behaved wrongly. The reality is that regulateers, central banks and | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
politicians, were at least as much to blame for the banking crisis as | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
the banks were. The Government has, undoubtedly, felt the pressure from | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
this "why only Sir Fred's Knighthood in question". This | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
afternoon they promised to do something about the fact, that | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
Lords who are convicted criminals can keep their peerages. Get ready | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
for a few more candidates for the shredder. | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
David Miliband, the former Foreign Secretary, beaten by his brother | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
for the leadership of the Labour Party, has decided his party needs, | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
what he calls, restless re-thinking of what it is about, if it is going | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
to win power again. He's careful, obviously, not to criticise his | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
Government, but his contribution got, inevitably, political | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
correspondents like David Grosseto, in a mild lather -- Grossman, in a | :26:08. | :26:15. | |
mild lather. This is a an argument of a seven-point piece in a small | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
circulation magazine, 7,000 copies sold. Why the fuss? I hesitate to | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
say this with such large pictures of the Milibands over your shoulder, | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
but not everyone in Westminster thinks that Ed Milliband is doing | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
such a bang-up job as leader. In that context, anything his brother | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
says except that Ed is a genius and can't help to lead us to victory in | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
the general, has to be interpreted. In this densely-argued article for | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
the New Statesman, there is plenty to interpret. Mr Miliband senior | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
says Labour has a tendency to go towards reassurance in opposition, | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
reassurance about our purpose, relevance and position, even our | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
morals, reassurance Labour feels good, but feeling good is not the | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
same as doing good. He says his brother gets this, that is why | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
there is a policy review. He gives his brother credit for keeping the | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
party together, for unity, but he says you cannot come away from | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
reading this article without getting the impression that he | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
doesn't think, David Miliband doesn't think the party is going in | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
the right direction. He says this towards the end, that it is a | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
massive risk to say there isn't much to worry about in our approach, | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
history is coming in our direction. But the reassurance tendency | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
suggests anyone who disagrees has abandoned principle for power. The | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
final thing that David Brand is saying in all of this, we shouldn't | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
under-- David Miliband is saying, in all of this, is we | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
underunderestimate him, he hasn't gone away, he hasn't given up on | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
winning the next election. The Government in Pakistan has | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
spent the day blustering it is not true its Intelligence Services are | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
helping the Taliban. You can believe them or the NATO report in | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
which the claim is made, which is based on 27,000 interrogations of | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
Taliban, Al-Qaeda and other prisoners. The report wasn't | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
intended for publication, because it is not only the Pakistan | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
Government that faces embarrassment from the findings, the report also | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
discloses that the low you are level of violence may not be, as | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
claipltd, the result of NATO operations -- claimed, the result | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
of NATO operations and Government resolutions. Is the fuss justified? | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
It is in the sense this is this highly classified survey of the | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
Taliban, what they think they have been doing, what they think they | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
have been achieving over the past couple of years. The material on | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
Pakistan, yes it is important and embarrassing, we have seen some | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
very important disclosures of this kind before. High level ones from | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
the US, I don't think that is where the meat is. The fascinating stuff | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
is to do with the end game. The shifting tides of poir, the way the | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
captured Taliban suggests people are looks towards NATO's exit, | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
trying to cut deals, that comes across clearly in the report. They | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
are talking to the Taliban, their resilience is evident, but also the | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
flakiness of President Karzai's administration, as NATO forces draw | :29:18. | :29:28. | |
:29:28. | :29:30. | ||
Violence is dropping in much of the Afghan countryside, that may be | :29:30. | :29:40. | |
:29:40. | :29:42. | ||
These deals, suggest the report, show that Afghan Government | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
officials are already working with the Taliban in much of the country. | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
There is not much comfort for British or American field | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
commanders either, because it looks at one or two areas, where they | :29:54. | :30:00. | |
have been put anything a huge effort and concludes...$$NEWLINE | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
Taliban governance appears to remain in effect. As for what | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
happens after 2014, when ISAF, NATO's foreign troops are no longer | :30:11. | :30:21. | |
:30:21. | :30:25. | ||
fighting, the detainee interviews How does the disclosure of this | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
report damage NATO? It is a classified assessment based on the | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
intimate knowledge gained in the interrogation room. The fascinating | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
thing, in terms of the border narrative, we have had for the last | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
couple of years reports of progress, from the counter insurgency effort | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
that NATO has been making. We hear violence has fallen by 40%, the | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
British casualties have fall bin a bigger margin than that. NATO | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
people have been saying this is due to our better counter insurgency, | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
our more joined-up approach, our resource. From the Taliban | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
prisoners you get a sense that in many areas they have turned down | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
the violence, because they are also looking to a governance-based | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
approach. They arele cooling things down and building relationships -- | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
they are cooling things down and building relationships with local | :31:18. | :31:24. | |
tribesmen. They have had a stake in toning down the violence themselves. | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
NATO responded vociferously. insurgency is on the back foot. We | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
have pressurised them over the summer and taken vast amounts of | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
land out of their hands. We have detained a number of them, and the | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
interviews are an element of this report. We don't see any reason to | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
take these findings of the investigation to reconsider or | :31:51. | :31:57. | |
readjust our findings. Joining us now is Michael Semple, a former | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
deputy EU envoy to Afghanistan, who was expelled from the country for | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
talking to the Taliban. He's now at Harvard from where he joins us. | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
Were you surprise bid anything in this report, Mr Semple -- surprised | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
by anything in this report? I was pleased rather than surprised. | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
Pleased that NATO is taking the trouble to listen to what these | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
gentlemen are saying. They will have learned lots more useful | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
things out of this, rather than the strange opinion polls they finance. | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
Do you think the Taliban, to any extent, deluding themselves in what | :32:33. | :32:42. | |
they are telling interrogators? That is a good question, when the | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
fighters talk, of course there is an awful lot of bluster there. The | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
position is not as rosy on the battlefield as they describe. | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
However, if some of them actually believe this, this is what | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
motivates them to go on and fight and be prepared to die. It does | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
count what they think and say. assumption that is made on reading | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
this accumulation of material, is that there is, in the way there is | :33:06. | :33:14. | |
with the political parties, a coherence of view, and one ideology, | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
and one agreed means of proceeding, is that actually true in the | :33:19. | :33:28. | |
Taliban? Yes, and no. Of course people fight for various different | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
reasons, and there are different factions inside the Taliban, but | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
one important point to come out of this, is that these thousands of | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
fighters have made it absolutely clear they anticipate that there | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
will be a struggle for power. This is not just about fighting to get | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
foreign troops to leave Afghanistan, this is about a struggle for power, | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
which some of them perhaps deluding themselves, expect they can win, | :33:51. | :33:59. | |
when NATO is off the scene. So what do you imagine to be the | :33:59. | :34:05. | |
outcome, what will happen? Broadly, there are two scenarios as we go | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
forward in Afghanistan over the next two or three years. Either | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
there is the happy scenario, where the political process which is now | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
tentatively getting under way, it leads to some kind of a deal, | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
Taliban coming into the political system. And you have some kind of | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
stability, as NATO draws down, or the other scenario, there isn't a | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
deal, that NATO does draw down, the Taliban stay in the fight, and | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
Afghanistan deteriorates in into civil war which could last for many | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
years to come. Do you want to call it one way or the other? Well, I | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
think, frankly, the continued conflict, the civil war is rather | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
more likely than the happy outcome. There are still various levers that | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
people in power can pull to increase the chances of getting a | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
happenyo outcome and an end to the conflict in Afghanistan that people | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
so desire. I'm sorry for the delay on the | :35:00. | :35:08. | |
satellite there. We and many others have asked before why the | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
Government takes hundreds of millions from British tax-payers to | :35:12. | :35:22. | |
:35:22. | :35:22. | ||
give India aid each year, when the country has a enviable growth and a | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
space programme. It is thought to be good for British business. The | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
example the Prime Minister gave was was attempts to sell warplanes to | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
the Indian air force. Today's discovery that the Indians are | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
showing their gratitude by buying French aircraft instead, is not | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
what you would call a ringing endorsement of the strategy. Just | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
after becoming Prime Minister, David Cameron went to India. The | :35:45. | :35:53. | |
aim was to drum up trade. He went mobhanded, Dave's pos | :35:53. | :36:03. | |
secluded George. What what Vince went along too? Companies operating | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
out of Britain need to do so. Cabinet ministers included Andy, | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
Andrew Mitchell, the development secretary. The aim of the trip was | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
to boost exports, chiefly to sell the Indians Typhoon fighter planes, | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
for his part, Mr Mitchell spoke of the significance of Britain's aid | :36:21. | :36:31. | |
:36:31. | :36:31. | ||
programme to India, reportedly adding: | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
The meaning was fairly explicit, buy our aircraft and we will | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
continue to provide you with aid. I think it was, as I said, it was not | :36:40. | :36:47. | |
a very subtle way of saying that. Would deny that emphatically, | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
saying there was not that leakage there? I don't expect anything else. | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
In parliamentary select committee last week, Mr Mitchell explained | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
how he saw his role. The specific point you make about Typhoon, is | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
when I travel, I regard myself as a cabinet minister, batting for the | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
whole range of British interests, not just development. And certain | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
low, wherever I go I seek to promote British interests, in | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
whatever form they come. The issue here is aid is supposed to be for | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
the relief of poverty, and by law, it should not be used to gain | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
commercial advantage. When Andrew Mitchell talks of aid and trade and | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
relationships in the round, others say it shows you just doesn't get | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
it. There is no round, and shouldn't be any round. We are | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
extremely worried as to how the Government has been behaving on | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
this. Over the last few years you have seen a perversion of British | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
aid, it has been drawn away from the needs of recipient companies | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
and the needs of the poor. Instead it is used more and more to serve | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
the needs of British interest or strategic interests. In Afghanistan, | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
Pakistan, the aid is needed in those countries, increasingly it | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
has been used to back up British strategic and security interests, | :38:04. | :38:11. | |
rather than the needs of the poor. What is wrong with that? It is the | :38:11. | :38:17. | |
beginning of a slippery slope. There were questions raised as | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
India's position as the leading recipient of British aid. With more | :38:22. | :38:30. | |
billionares than Britain, and high GDP, they do they need millions in | :38:30. | :38:36. | |
development cash? It is a controversial topic, India needs | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
the aid because it is doing well economically. You have a lot of | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
people surviving on less than �1 a day, very, very poor people? | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
have people living on less than a dollar a day, the pound is | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
ambitious. Out of every rupee, only 15% of it actually reaches the | :38:56. | :39:03. | |
people it is meant to reach. The 85% is syphoned off by officials. | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
Corruption is the problem. It is not that there is not enough money | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
going around, or not enough food, or grain going around. It is just | :39:12. | :39:21. | |
that it disappears into corrupt pockets. | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
Mr Cameron may have batted for Britain with Mr Mitchell as his | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
partner, but it seems the Indians want to buy their jets from France | :39:29. | :39:35. | |
instead. It is just not cricket. With us in the studio is Alpesh | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
Patel, a board member of the UK India Business Council, we're | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
joined from Paris by Ian Birrell, a former speechwriter to David | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
Cameron, and contributing editor. At first sight this outcome with | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
the planes doesn't look a strategic success, does it? I think to | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
continue the cricket metaphor, I think that Andrew Mitchell has been | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
caught off. Britain's aid policies now look absurd, and no more so in | :40:05. | :40:11. | |
India, we are giving �1.2 billion to a country that gives away �1.7 | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
billion in aid itself, which in decade will be bigger than the | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
British economy. And there is a fantastic record of aid going | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
missing. Take one recent example, Britain funded the 8,000 | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
televisions in Indian schools, none of them turned up. Even if they had, | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
most of the schools didn't have electricity. You don't support | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
thised aid policy do you? I do, the reason for it is, not because India | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
can't afford to look after its own people. It chooses not to through | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
incompetence and corruption, which is why Britain and countries like | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
Britain have to step in. To protect them from their own Government? | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
to look after Indian citizens. That is the problem. The Indian | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
Government does not look after, for instance, children under five, half | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
of them are malnourished in India. If you could get the Indian | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
Government to do something, Britain wouldn't need to provide. It is an | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
Indian problem? It is, but it becomes our problem when a global | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
player and looking for countries to assist. Be India is one of those, | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
which sadly needs help because its own Government doesn't provide it. | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
What do you make of Andrew Mitchell's argument that some how | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
there is self-interest in this, that some how if we give India aid, | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
they will reciprocate by buying our goods? I think we have seen their | :41:27. | :41:33. | |
response to that today. The looming decision over the fighter planes. | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
But to pick up Mr Patel's point. The problem with aid is it does the | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
exact opposite, it undermines the accountability of Governments. It | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
has been shown time and again to encourage corruption, and also to | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
ensure that Governments rely on money abroad, rather than decent | :41:49. | :41:55. | |
public services. One Harvard medical school study found | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
countries when given more aid for their health services spent less. | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
The Indians don't feel any great obligation toe us, when it comes to | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
the great decision about warplanes today and yesterday. They don't | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
feel any obligations as a consequence of the aid they have | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
been given from this country? look at the two things separately. | :42:14. | :42:20. | |
The aid goes to children who are malnourished, it doesn't go to the | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
politicians. The politicians...Andrew Mitchell was | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
the man that said the two things were linked? You would like to | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
think a Government does look on you favourably. The Government has shot | :42:32. | :42:39. | |
itself in the foot. It makes no odds to British | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
Aerospace losing or winning this BAe contract. India has chosen a | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
plane that has no deterrent, so the ones cheering is the Pakistani air | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
force. In the round there is some relationship? What I would defend, | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
if I'm doing something good by providing aid to people who need it. | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
And as a result of which, a Government may hopefully look | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
favourably upon me, then that is an added benefit of aid. I'm not | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
saying that I am able to make the direct payment. It is irrelevant to | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
the initial judgment as to whether a country deserves aid? The initial | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
and most important thing is whether or not those people on the ground | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
deserve and need the aid. They do, because their own Government isn't | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
looking after them. As a result of that aid, you can lean on the | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
Government and say we are helping your people and expect to be looked | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
on favourably. That is an addition tkwral benefit, I wish it was | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
direct, where I could both look after the people and buy my planes. | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
It is the Indian Government which has led down its own country by | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
buying a worse product than the Typhoon. What is wrong with Mr | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
Patel's argument? The trouble is Britain's aid policies are looking | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
increase league threadbare, we are increasing the budget so far and so | :43:59. | :44:05. | |
fast, they are running out of ideas to defend T it is poured out there, | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
encouraging corruption, breaching accountability of Governments. Not | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
get to go the sources it is meant to be doing. Increasing low you are | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
hearing voices in Africa and Asia saying please don't give us this | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
aid and stop these patronising and outdated policies. The future | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
belongs to trade and issues like that, and Britain tackling | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
corruption at home, and stopping the flow of money coming out, | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
stolen from some developing nations, and ending up in British bank | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
accounts and handled by British legal firms, and being turned into | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
British property. This is where the Government could do more good, | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
rather than these very old fashioned patronising approach | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
saying we can save your countries. Do you think there is a vanity in a | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
country like our's, thinking this is some responsibility we have in | :44:56. | :45:02. | |
the world, when in fact we are shortly going to be outpaced by a | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
country India? It looks ludicrously outdated, if it worked there would | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
be wrong with it. A doesn't work, this is the legacy of live aid, | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
that we have a generation of politicians that believe some how | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
the west is the saviour of the world, and here we are stagnating | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
in the west. While there is rampent economic growth in Africa, Latin | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
America and much of Asia. We look increasingly ridiculous with old | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
fashioned aid policies. What do you make of that argument? It is wrong, | :45:33. | :45:39. | |
when I go there every two months I do to India, and look and see how | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
the aid is doing through the NGOs today, for people. We are not | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
looking at changing corruption over decades, by stopping aid today, it | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
impacts those kids today. It doesn't make a jot of difference to | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
the politicians whether or not we give 5, they are already not | :45:56. | :46:06. | |
looking after the people on the ground -- aid, they are already not | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
looking after the people on the ground. When you look into | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
countries like India, they are a very poor nation. | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
They are shortly going to have a bigger economy than us? Sadly, if | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
only they would manage it to look after their own people. If we could | :46:22. | :46:31. | |
use that money to tell politicians to better use that aid. But sadly | :46:31. | :46:41. | |
:46:41. | :46:59. | ||
it is going to those who don't need That's all from Newsnight tonight, | :46:59. | :47:09. | |
:47:09. | :47:35. | ||
tomorrow emlow will be here. Compared to some parts of Europe we | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
can't complain, the cold isn't as extreme. It will be a frosty start | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
for many of us. Bright and sunny for most, cloud towards even parts | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
of England. A light flurry of snow for east Yorkshire, and | :47:49. | :47:56. | |
Lincolnshire around the wash. East Anglia as well. More southern | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
counties will be dry and bright with sunshine as we start the day. | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
That is where they will stay through the afternoon as well. Over | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
the high ground it will probably stay cold throughout the day. | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
Subzero for South-West of England, high ground of Wales too. Lots of | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
sunshine to compensate. Cloud floating into eastern parts of | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
Northern Ireland at times, and for south western parts of Scotland | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
cloudier, dry and more sunshine, across the north and east of | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
Scotland, barely above freezing. It stays that way through the rest of | :48:27. | :48:34. | |
the week, across northern areas, dry and bright, crisp and sunny. In | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
the south predominantly dry and bright. Snow showers across the | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
south-east. Light covering for the likes of north Kent. The weekend, | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
which continues to give us forecasters a bit of a headache. As | :48:47. | :48:51. |