Browse content similar to 02/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, what's the answer to this? Which minister or ministers signed | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
off this tax avoidance scheme, and on what date? Will he say which | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
minister or ministers signed off the tax arrangements on this deal? | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
Newsnight answers the question the Chief Secretary to the Treasury | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
could not. Which ministers signed off the deal that let a senior | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
public servant avoid paying thousands of pounds a year in tax. | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
11 hours after the revelations on this programme, the Government | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
announces the student loans chief's current tax arrangements will stop | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
immediately. Is the whole tax avoidance scheme | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
one to be gotten rid of. We will debate. | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
In Egypt protestors are met with teargas, as the 74 dead from | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
yesterday's football riot are mourned. Is the state doing | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
anything to avoid the bloodshed. player spoke to me and said you | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
can't imagine what it was like, a fan died in my arms in the dressing | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
room. Both sets of players think this has nothing to do with | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
football, but somebody is trying to cause some sort of unrest in the | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
country. Should the Church of England bless | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
same-sex partnerships, the church says it doesn't really know, how is | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
that for decisive. We will ask Giles Fraser, who resigned from his | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
post last year, whether the church should bend to the political | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
fashions of the day. Rembering Lucian Freud, an the evening of a | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
major retrospective of his paintings, he speak to his daughter, | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
Esther. He accepted him exactly how he was. He was a very interesting | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
and exciting father to have. I could see he was obviously | :01:45. | :01:55. | |
:01:55. | :01:57. | ||
different from other people's fathers, but I always felt lucky. | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
Good evening, revelations by this programme last night that the chief | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
executive of the Student Loans Company was avoiding paying tens of | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
thousands of pounds in tax, in an arrangement signed off by senior | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
ministers, has led to a dramatic re-think by the Government. The | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, told MPs in | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
response to an urgent parliamentary question, that Ed Lester's tax | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
would now be deducted at source, and he's ordered all other | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
Government departments to do the same to any full-time employee | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
operating under the same sort of scheme. Tonight Newsnight has seen | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
the letter that universities' minister, David Willetts, wrote to | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
the student loans chairman, in which he states the tax arrangement | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
had been accepted at the very top of Government. | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
The eye of the storm, in September 20089, computer failure at the | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
Student Loans Company left tens of thousands without funds. | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
One year on, the coalition and its universities minister, David | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
Willetts, arrive to revel in the appointment of the loans company's | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
new boss. His man, Ed Lester, in the red tie, would ensure meltdown | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
was never repeated. It wasn't. But trouble comes in many guises, | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
what wasn't revealed until last night, was how Mr Lester's pay | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
would be channelled into the private company he runs from his | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
home on the Thames. It's tax efficient, tax avoidant, | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
and it has landed the Government in a world of trouble. So who is to | :03:25. | :03:32. | |
blame? Or in the words of Dennis Skinner: Which minister will carry | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
the can for this mess? I'm here answering questions about it. | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
Alexander, the strerb secretary, was facing the music -- Treasury | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
secretary, was facing the music. He announced that Mr Lester would now | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
pay tax at source, and there will be a review across all the | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
departments over who was using tax avoidance schemes and why. He | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
refused to explain how the Government had approved Mr Lester's | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
tax scheme. We know the higher Education Minister signed this deal | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
off. Will the Chief Secretary for the Treasury acknowledge corporate | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
responsibility across Government that this was signed off by | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
Government for all his protestations now. Which minister | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
or ministers signed off this tax avoidance scheme, and on what date? | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
Will he say which minister or ministers signed off the tax | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
arrangement ones this deal? What I can tell the honourable gentleman | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
is what I said already, I signed off the salary level in this case, | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
the terms and conditions, the terms and conditions of the | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
appointment...But Still no word on tax. | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
So which minister did approve Ed Lester's tax avoidance arrangements, | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
perhaps Newsnight can help answer the question Danny Alexander found | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
so hard. On December 15th, 2010, the Student Loans Company wrote a | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
letter to the universities' minister, David Willetts. It asked | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
his approval to give Ed Lester a contract on pay of �182,000 a year. | :05:04. | :05:14. | |
:05:14. | :05:18. | ||
That current concession was the arrangement allowing Mr Lester's | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
pay to go direct without deductions at source, to his own private | :05:22. | :05:32. | |
:05:32. | :05:40. | ||
company. The following week Mr That's Danny Alexander. | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
We took the course pond dent back to Westminster tomorrow -- | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
correspondence back to Westminster today, and showed it to the Labour | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
minister, Meg Hillier. It says it is agreed by the Chief Secretary to | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
the Treasury, which given what he said today that is interesting, and | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
signed off by David Willetts. It is clear what the answer is. I'm | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
amazed, though repeatedly asked in the House today, the Chief | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
Secretary to the Treasury didn't answer who was responsible. | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
does bear responsibility, looking at this? Clearly David Willetts | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
does. But from looking at this, we need to ask more questions from the | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
Chief Secretary to the Treasury, it says in the letter from David | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
Willetts that Danny Alexander has signed this off. I have been a | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
minister, you don't just get a letter like this in your red box, | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
you get a full attachment from the Civil Service explaining all the | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
background. I would be surprised if the Chief Secretary to the Treasury | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
didn't see that background too. He should have asked questions when he | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
saw this letter. While the Treasury is still insisting tonight that | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
Danny Alexander was told nothing about tax, David Willetts' | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
department says the terms and the conditions of Mr Lester were | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
approved across Government. In the past 24 hours, Newsnight's | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
been inundated with calls and e- mails from all over the country, | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
saying -- of people saying they have personal knowledge of highly- | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
paid individuals in the public and private sector, on similar tax | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
efficient arrangements. Chief concern in the public sector is | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
expressed over the NHS and local Government. | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
So like most of the rest of the country's work force, the head of | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
the Student Loans Company, will find his next pay slip is net, not | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
gross. Meanwhile, a Government which told the nation we are all in | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
this together, has yet to confirm who was in the know about Mr | :07:25. | :07:32. | |
Lester's deal. Despite a second day of asking the | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
Government they still don't wish to be interviewed on the issue. We're | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
joined by Margaret Hodge, chair of the Public Accounts Committee. | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
Thanks for coming in. Danny Alexander said he wasn't aware of | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
any tax benefit, does that make sense to you? No, not at all. | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
Because it does appear, from the course pond dense, and I saw the | :07:53. | :08:03. | |
:08:03. | :08:06. | ||
course pond dense that -- From the letters that it was signed off by- | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
election Election. I have been a minister too, you would get a lot | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
of details before signing off an arrangement of that sort. | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
What he said was the salary level was what he concerned himself with, | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
and the terms of conditions, whatever that means, he didn't talk | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
specifically about the tax? It is very difficult to know precisely | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
what Danny Alexander did know. That is why my committee will start an | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
inquiry into this, we are particularly interested as to | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
whether or not the scheme that provided a tax avoidance scheme for | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
this particularly high- paid public servant exists elsewhere in | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
Government. You can understand someone on a consultancy basis, | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
doing it for a short-term, or covers if someone's sick, or on | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
maternity leave, those situations. You can understand that those sort | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
of consultants might have their pay, through a company of a sort. But | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
for a public servant, running a major public body, working full- | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
time, I really do think, I have been saying it all day, I really do | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
think it is hugely important that the Government should lead by | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
example. Can I just say something to you, Danny Alexander said in the | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
House today, that he was going to stop all schemes. I have managed to | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
get hold of a letter that he sent round all the top civil servants to | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
ask if they can give information as to who is being paid on the basis | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
of a tax avoidance scheme. What this letter actually says is, | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
"artificial tax avoidance should always be regarded as a novel and | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
contentious use of public resources, so if a public sector organisation | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
is considering a proposal, using tax avoidance, it should consult | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
its usual Treasury contacts, and HMRC, before going ahead ". That | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
doesn't sound to me as if he's ensuring there are no further | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
employees in the public sector. think that letter says he's not | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
ruling out this kind of tax arrangement in future? I think he's | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
not ruling it out in the way that I nevered from what he said in the | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
House today -- infered from what he said in the House today. I welcomed | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
the quick change of heart in the house today, we have to understand | :10:22. | :10:32. | |
what it means, and understand the role he played in agreeing the | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
particular circumstances. We know for example of the Chief Operating | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
Officer of Rural Payments Agency was paid more than �300,000 from a | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
third party, in 2009/10, when the Labour Government was still in | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
charge, and presumably had signed off exactly the same arrangement. | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
There must be hundreds of these cases? I heard that allegation in | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
the House, if that was the case I would be as shocked about that as I | :10:56. | :11:05. | |
am about the chief executive of the students loans company. | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
Interestingly enough, we don't normally call ministers to my | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
commit year, we look at value for money and implement -- committee, | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
we look at value for money and implementation of policy. There is | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
a difference between appointing someone as a full-time employee to | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
run an organisation, they should pay, like you and I do, their | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
national insurance con tribbuegss and their tax. You -- Contributions | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
and their tax. We will certainly look at it. There is a difference | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
in that and bringing in somebody on a short-term contract to cover an | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
absence or a position if somebody has been dismissed or a maternity | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
leave, those sorts of situations. That is why you can't conflait the | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
two. This appointment was a full- time appointment, to run a non- | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
departmental public body, it is not acceptable. The Government should | :11:56. | :12:03. | |
lead by example. We will debate this further and discuss whether | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
tax avoidance is a force for good or evil. We have the columnist for | :12:09. | :12:17. | |
the Conservative Home website, and director of Europe Economics, a tax | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
specialist and author Eoin Jones. Do you think that Danny Alexander | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
moved very quickly to close that tax arrangement, was he right to do | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
so today? It is important to distinguish between cases in which | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
tax is avoided by doing something which is substantially different | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
from the situation in which you would incur tax. Tax ought to be | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
associated with some kind of activity. If there is no change in | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
the real world, and you have merely rebadged an activity to try to | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
avoid tax, my understanding is normally HMRC would not permit that. | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
This was wrong, this case was wrong? I don't know if it is wrong, | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
it is surprising, I don't know the details of this case. I find it | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
surprising that would happen, that kind of forebearance would lap for | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
anybody other than some jet setting multibillionare, where you might | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
have a different arrangement. In terms of general principle, it is a | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
genuine mistake of Danny Alexander going down the route of rhetoric | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
saying there is no place for tax avoidance in Government at all. | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
People might ask questions about the tax arrangements of the many | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
mull toe millionaires in the cabinets. One of the points about | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
tax avoidance is it is desirable and perfectly moral. When it | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
involves a change in activity, the Government encourages us to avoid | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
taxs in all kinds of ways, when it places special taxes on cigarettes | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
and alcohol, it wants us to consume less of them. That is about trying | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
to change people's behaviour, that is specific. Let me ask you if you | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
think that tax avoidance can be desirable and morbl? Absolutely not. | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
We are currently -- morbl? Absolutely not, we are currently | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
going through the biggest cuts since the 1920s, we are promise bid | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
George Osborne we are in it together. Many people -- promised | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
by George Osborne that we are in it together. That is on the backs some | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
of the poorest people in this country. Yesterday Government MPs | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
voted, for example, to take away benefits from cancer patients, and | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
yet up to 25 billion is being lost through tax avoidance. That is | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
money which could, from wealthy individuals, perfectly legally. | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
are not contesting the fact it is a very legal, legitimate process to | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
go through? In a sense that makes it even worse. If we talk about | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
benefit fraud, we hear a lot about benefit fraud, it is worth about | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
�1.2 billion according to Government estimates. The | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
Government comes down like aen to of bricks from -- tonne of bricks | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
on anyone who crosses the line. But wealthy individuals can exploit the | :14:51. | :14:58. | |
a time through the worst cuts since the 1920s, it is morally | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
indefensible. There is this idea that it is always the wealthy that | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
avoid tax, and it is the middle who will do it by tax efficiencies and | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
savings? It is a misconception. We are dealing with something called a | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
personal service company. Those were used around the turn of the | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
millennium, by lots of IT consultants. Actually there is a | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
rule that came in, IR35, a bit of jargon, that really says if you | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
would have been employee, if you didn't have this company, then you | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
should really be treated like an employyo. But if, actually, you | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
have, for example, multiple contracts going on at the same time, | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
if maybe you can choose whether you do the job or you send someone else | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
to do it, whether you have some risk of loss in carrying on your | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
business, then it is perfectly acceptable to have all of those | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
contracts paid into your company which itself pays corporation tax. | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
Is it middle income earners that use this, or predominantly the very | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
wealthy? It is across the board. A lot of people will go to their | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
accountants and say should I set up as a company or sole trader. There | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
is a number of reasons for people to incorporate rather than a self- | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
employed people. It is hypocritical to say, if somebody on a middle | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
income, more than the average wage, is trying to find efficient ways of | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
saving it, because they might not have a pension or maternity leave, | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
you wouldn't have a problem with that, would you? When we are | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
talking about the level of tax avoidance in this country, we are | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
talking about those who have access to top accountants, who are able to | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
exploit the loopholes that exist in this country. If we are talking | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
about tax efficiency, take called tax efficiency, Sir Philip Green, | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
who runs Top Man, a multibillion air strikes he got paid �1.2 | :16:45. | :16:53. | |
billion in dividends, because the wife multibillion air strikes he | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
got paid �1.2 billion in dividends, but because his wife is the | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
director of the company and living in Monaco, he got hold of most of | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
that money. So individuals like Philip Green can get hold that have | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
framework, not accessible to ordinary people, most people | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
struggle to support that. disagree fundamentally, it is this | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
line of thought representing an attack on the thought of private | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
property. We have tax in respect of specific activity and uses we make | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
of our resources. If the law does not impose taxes on that, we don't | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
have any obligation to arrange our activities in ways that make us be | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
liable to tax. That's just a mistake. Once we start saying, no, | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
the law is passed and there is some sort of general intention to take | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
some of your stuff, if you don't behave in ways by this general | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
intention, we will take the stuff any way, that is an attack on the | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
concept of my personal ownership on things. I think we don't have a | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
moral obligation to pay any more tax than the state imposes on us. | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
This is a deep philosophical question, but eye singsly do you | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
think that hold -- essentially, do you think that holds, if businesses | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
find ways of not paying as much tax as they want to, they are more | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
likely to invest in the UK and stay here? Rules play be established to | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
support an individual in creating their own business. Which is what I | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
understand these sorts of rules to be. When they are then exploited, | :18:25. | :18:33. | |
legally, but exploited, to bring greater benefit to individuals who | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
should anybody that catagory, that is a tax avoidance loophole we | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
should close. If that expectation brings more jobs, employment and | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
growth to the economy, do you start calling it expectation and call it | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
efficiency? Well, I don't think, remember that when you pay your | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
taxes, those taxes are money that is used also to create jobs and | :18:58. | :19:05. | |
services. It isn't an either or, in the way you suggest. I think in | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
erpls it of public services, where I started, if -- terms of public | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
services, if you are an employee, as this person appeared to be, he | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
took advantage of a scheme that may have been established to help | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
individuals grow their own business, or have a portfolio of employment, | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
he took advantage of that to pay less tax, and the disbenefit of | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
that, the people who suffer, are actually the public that we are | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
talking about that don't get the money they want. This must be | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
widespread? One fundamental issue, going back to the issue of what | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
level of wealth is employed in using a personal service company. I | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
was interested in consulting the revenue website today, one of the | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
deciding factors, to help individuals work out whether they | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
are caught by the rules, is do you bring your own tools, or do you use | :19:54. | :20:04. | |
:20:04. | :20:08. | ||
that of your client? Just talking about the tools it is talking about | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
plumbers and painters, not people with technological jobs. Small | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
businesses are facing clampdown from HMRC. Just talking about they | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
employ workers and bringing wealth into the economy. Most people | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
accept that regardless, all businesses have to play by the | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
rules of a country. If we take Philip Green, who doesn't pay a | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
living wage to his employees, those wages end up being topped up by the | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
taxpayer by tax credits. He's not here to defend that? The HMRC faces | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
huge cuts, which means it won't be able to enforce. Is this about | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
political momentum of the fairness agenda, do you broadly think that | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
it's not fair, because some people are earning a lot more than other | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
people, is that where you would start from? No it is the fact that | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
at the moment the top 20%, for example, pay less as a proportion | :21:00. | :21:07. | |
of their income than the bottom 20%. It is about the...It Is a | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
combination of a collectivisation of the notion of property, plus, | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
however, a sense that particular schemes in particular cases apply | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
to different individual that is wouldn't apply to the rest of us. | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
That is at the core of the sense of unfairness about this specific case. | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
Who or what was behind the bloody violence that saw more than 70 | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
people killed at an Egyptian football riot last night. Today, | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
thousands of demonstrators had teargas fired at them in Cairo's | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
Tahrir Square, as they attempted to carry the protests to the door of | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
the Interior Ministry, whom many blame for the violence. Questions | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
are being asked as to whether there was a political motivation behind | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
the rioting, from supporters of the old Egyptian regime. We will debate | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
where this leaves Egypt's political future. | :21:59. | :22:06. | |
As the train from Porto Santo Stefano pulled into Cairo today, -- | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
Port Said, pulled into Cairo today, relatives from those at the game | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
waited. TRANSLATION: My son hasn't answered his phone since yesterday, | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
and I want to know what is going on, he's 18 years old, please, please | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
help look for him. On the streets of the Egyptian | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
capital, there was as much anger as grief. Head to go Tahrir Square, | :22:29. | :22:39. | |
:22:39. | :22:40. | ||
supporters of of one of the country's most formidable teams. | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
They call themselves The Ultras, they believe the attack on them | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
last night was an act of revenge, orchestrated by the security forces. | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
This was the scene minutes after the local team, al-Masry, | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
unexpectedly beat al-Ahlyly the visitors. | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
Police appeared to standby as the pitch was invaded from the stands, | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
men, armed with knives, attacked the team's players and support yos. | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
Both the players of Alaa and al- Masry have no doubt this was | :23:13. | :23:23. | |
:23:23. | :23:25. | ||
allowed to happen. They awe -- Damhon Albarnly, and Alaa -- Al- | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
Ahly and all Massa have no doubt this was allowed to happen. One of | :23:28. | :23:37. | |
the players said they have no doubt, you couldn't imagine it a fan died | :23:37. | :23:45. | |
in their arms. Some Al-Ahly were stabbed and most clubbed, most were | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
killed in the crush as they tried to desperately escape. Were the | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
perpetrators local fans who hate their long standing rivals, some | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
say not. A former player of the club, he was just outside the | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
stadium, he said that at half time, and second half and towards the end | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
of the game, people were arriving in taxies, armed, and being allowed | :24:06. | :24:16. | |
:24:16. | :24:19. | ||
in to the taid yum. Even -- stadium, eventhough they weren't part of the | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
game. Today the first bodies were buried. | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
With the tensions in Egypt unfinished, many refuse to believe | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
that the police failure to keep order at last night's game was | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
simply incompetence. They believe the tragedy was deliberately | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
provoked, or allowed to happen by supporters of the old regime. | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
Perhaps specifically by the ruling Military Council, to try to show, | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
that without a firm hand from above, Egypt may dissolve into chaos. | :24:48. | :24:55. | |
It is no coincidence, say conspiracy therapists, say it is | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
exactly one year of the battle of the camel, the day the Mubarak | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
regime sent camels and shoress into Tahrir Square to crush the | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
revolution. Those chooses chose last night to show they haven't | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
gone away, despite democratic elections and the suspension of | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
some police powers. This is a way to say they will not give up power, | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
they want the Egyptian people and break the revolution and the | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
Egyptian people. They have been forced to suspend the emergency law | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
throughout this week, throughout this week we have seen a heightened | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
and increased criminal activity. It is another way to scare people and | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
have the Egyptians beg the Military Council to assume more power and | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
responsibility. But is it possible that the police, who themselves | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
demonstrated during the fall of Mubarak last year, and who later | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
largely disappeared from the streets, are simply no longer | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
capable of controlling an ever more volatile country. There are so many | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
problems in Egypt today, many of them are blamed on all kinds of | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
conspiracy theories, that is not true. There are some systemic | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
problems with the legacy of Mubarak. Shall we say the dysfuntionality of | :26:11. | :26:19. | |
the Egyptian state is a legacy of Mubarak. | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
But tonight, with the Ultras, and thousands of other protestors, | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
marching on the Interior Ministry, and braving teargas, angry at the | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
security forces and the failure so far to complete the transition to | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
democracy, is driving a new cycle of violence. | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
The conspiracy theorists will say that is exactly what the | :26:43. | :26:50. | |
authorities wanted. With me now is Nesrine Malik, a | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
Middle East specialist, and Dr Hossam Abdalla, of Egypt's National | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
Association for Change, a coalition of mainly secular opposition | :26:59. | :27:06. | |
parties. Welcome to you both. Can we, Dr Abdalla, see this as simply | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
incompetence, bad crowd organisation? Not at all. | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
It comes as a series of different things happening throughout. It is | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
not only about what happened yesterday, in November 42 | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
Christians, Coptic, have been killed, and another 40 have been | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
killed in November, and then in December another 17 or 18, all | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
killed by the army, directly being shot. In this country, there has | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
been scaremongering throughout the country, that the 25th of January | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
will descend into chaos. More than one million people went orderly | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
into the street to continue the revolution, despite all the things | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
the army were putting. The army want to stay in power by any means. | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
The only reason they have reduced their state to June, is the | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
pressure of the people. If you want to find it, you can definitely see | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
landmarks and points along the way? It is a bit of both, to be honest. | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
There are lots of indication that is there is something suspicious | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
happening, something conspiratoral did happen in the stadium, there is, | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
as your guest on the report said, there is a legacy of a dysfuntional | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
state. I think it is a combination of these two things. You have a | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
security system and a police system that has melted away, since January | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
25th of last year. There is some kind of passive aggressive | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
behaviour on behalf of the police forces. What do you mean by that? | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
The police is essentially controlled by the military, they | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
are now the state? But the police independently has its own problems, | :28:42. | :28:48. | |
with the football Ultras, they were effectively defeated by them in the | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
revolution. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume they | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
deliberately held back. In some kind of passive aggressive gesture, | :28:56. | :29:03. | |
not to intervene, when the conflicts began. I don't think the | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
fact it is incompetence makes it any less of a crime, it is still a | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
huge failure. You are saying it is failure to react as opposed to | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
fermenting the situation? I think it is a combination of the things. | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
There are two levels here, failure or incompetence both should be | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
really defeated F the army after one year of rule is incompetent, or | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
conspiring against the people to create a state of chaos, in which | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
they can continue. In both cases Government should move into | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
civilian hands. We have an elected parliament, parliament should take | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
the rein of power, and the army go back to the barracks and reorganise | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
the police force to save the people. In Egypt we are being punished | :29:46. | :29:52. | |
because we revolted against Mubarak, by the army and the police. | :29:52. | :29:58. | |
could bring people together? People are galvanised constantly. Out on | :29:58. | :30:05. | |
the streets constantly. One year they tried to do away with that and | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
they couldn't. They accused the people in the streets of destroying | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
the economy, but the armyo and police put together are prevending | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
that. Why -- preventing that. Why do you think a year later we are | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
talking about the systemic problems of Mubarak? Mubarak and his regime | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
were in power for 40 years, you can't dismantle that overnight. The | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
army, I completely agree, whether incompetence and conspiracy, it is | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
a fill your on behalf of the military. A year is not overnight, | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
it should be long enough to start getting the democratic process | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
under way? You have a military entrenched in a curive function | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
that is not curive. It is not governing in a way that is | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
protective of the Egyptian people. It is still clinging on to the old | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
system and structures. Caught between and be twix. They can't | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
reform, but at the same time they can't return to the barracks, the | :31:02. | :31:08. | |
problem is the military. That cedes power to civilians, then you have a | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
healthy momentum. As long as we are caught in the trench of a Catch 22, | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
I think these problems will continue. It is about the economic | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
interest and other things. If you look at the whole Arab Spring, it | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
is a vote of the people against military rule. If you lock at the | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
Arab Spring now, and coins like Syria will be looking to Egypt, | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
their poster girl has gone? It is an incomplete revolution, the | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
revolution will be run by getting rid of military rule. The military | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
have ruled for 60 years in Egypt, the rest of the Arab world | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
mimicking Egypt, we need to get rid of it, they are liars, they lie, we | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
know that they know that they are lying. | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
Thank you very much. Should civil partnerships be | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
blessed by the Church of England, so far the General Synod has banned | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
partnership ceremonies. Now a hundred or more priests have signed | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
a letter demanding the right to conduct them in their churches. | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
Yesterday the Government -- last year the Government lifted a ban on | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
using religious buildings for celebration of gay marriages. Now | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
the debate on what a civil partnership means must be had first. | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
The Anglican community has never been afraid of a good argument. In | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
recent years the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williamss, has | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
presided over rows of the anointment of gay bishops, | :32:29. | :32:36. | |
ordination of women and general reform. Now with the General Synod | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
meeting next week they are gearing up for another fight, over whether | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
blessing civil partnerships. John Sentamu has refused the idea, | :32:44. | :32:51. | |
saying the church's idea of marriage is a union between man and | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
woman. Jim Broadbent says the church has thinking to do -- | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
Bordeaux Wine Trading Company bored says the church has thinking to do | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
on -- Broadbent says the church has thinking to do. We all understand | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
marriage, it is a public commitment between people two people. We don't | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
have a ceremony for blessing people who are living together. Precisely | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
because they have chosen a different way of committing | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
themselves to each other. We haven't yet worked out what we mean | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
by civil partnership, and therefore we haven't got a straight | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
understanding, a theology in the church's terms of what we mean. | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
Traditional marriages, even amongst divorced couples have been blessed | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
here for years, but the bishop says he's unsure whether that blessing | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
should be extended to same-sex couples? The jury is out, you don't | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
know the effect long-term of what same-sex relationships are likely | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
to be. They have only been public for the last 20, 30 years in that | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
particular way. We have only had civil partnerships for a short time | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
in our society. We need to look at the long-term effects on society of | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
changing our understanding of marriage, if that is what the | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
Government wants us to do. Because your concern is what? My concern is | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
the stability of society is always affected by the way in which we | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
legitimise relationships. What would happen if you | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
legitimised the wrong ones? might not be good for the whole of | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
society overall, we don't know. That's why we need the discussion. | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
The church that was born of a marriage controversy some 500 years | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
ago, is once again struggling to decide whether to move with the | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
political tide or hold out for something many within it still hold | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
dear. With me now are the form er Canon | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
Chancellor of St Paul's Cathedral, Giles Fraser, one of the | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
signatories in favour of blessings for civil partnerships, and a | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
member of the General Synod. Thank you very much to both of you for | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
coming in. It was quite interesting, Giles Fraser, talking to the bishop | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
this afternoon, that while, as he said, the jury is still out, there | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
is this caution, there is a concern that civil partnerships might not | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
be beneficial to society? I don't see how that would be the case, I | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
mean and I don't see how he knows that. What the signatories of this | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
letter want is to affirm permanent faithful, stable, gay relationships, | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
in civil partnerships, and have those affirmed in church. We're | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
responding to the needs of the people on the ground. We find God | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
in the needs of the people who come to us in our churches, and wanting | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
to do this. It seems bizarre that we turn them away and say that we | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
cannot bless them when they come to church. We can bless battleships, | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
we can bless pets at the pet service. You can bless without | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
conducting a ceremony that legitimises that? No, having that | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
in church, and celebrating two people's love for each other is | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
something we should certainly be doing, we should not be turning | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
people away and saying we have nothing to offer them. Isn't that | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
what pastoral care is all about? Pastoral care for those with same- | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
sex attraction is something that is very important, and something that | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
the church is working on. Pastoral care and support for friendships in | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
a very lonely society is very important, but that's not. You have | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
heard about the importance of recognising what are essentially | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
stable committed relationships, why wouldn't you do that? The stable | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
committed relationship at the foundation of society is marriage | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
between a man and a woman, which is the foundation of the family, which | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
is the best context for raising children. Now that's been shown in | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
study after study after study. The church identifies that as marriage, | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
the problem with civil partnerships is, sorry, the problem with civil | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
partnerships is what started off as remedys a real injustice, and we | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
were all in support of going forward with civil partnerships, as | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
long as they included those who were siblings, those who had family | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
relationships with each other, but those relationships were banned. | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
And they were banned in order that what we could have would be | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
something that would mimic marriage. I would like to see the law revised | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
so that sisters, brothers and sisters, siblings, those who have | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
family relationships could have a civil partnership, and a great | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
injustice that they cannot inherit property from each other could be | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
remedied. Isn't that a coppout, you are trying to see the liberals as | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
being less inclusive than you are with this? Exactly. I don't | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
understand that argument at all, I'm afraid. This is about gay | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
people wanting to come and celebrate their love for each other | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
in church. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, but he said a great | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
deal about the way in which the religious establishment often kept | :37:53. | :38:01. | |
people from God, that is what is going on here. The concern is, this | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
may match the political weather vane of the times, but the church | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
has never been afraid to stick to what it believes in? Exactly, it | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
believes in permanent, faithful, stable, loving relationships and | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
affirming them. This is not coming from political pressure, but the | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
needs of the people on the ground who are coming to us, in our | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
churches, and asking us for blessing and for love and for care. | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
The Diocese of London is not a trendy liberal diocese, it is a | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
very conservative diocese, 120 Clergy signed this letter precisely | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
because they meet that need day in day out. The risk is you isolate | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
these people and turn them off faith? Not at all, there is two | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
different things being talked about here. We are talking on the one | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
hand about the need to provide the proper basis of society, marriage | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
between a man and a woman, family, and we're talking about the proper | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
support of friendships, the proper support of people who want to care | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
for each other. To confuse the thing. People will say the church | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
is out of step? The church is out of step on a lot of things, on the | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
matter of welfare, capping welfare benefits, and is not afraid to | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
speak against that. We remember the bishops in the House of Lords last | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
week, being out of step with society is no charge against the | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
church, it often has, and often needs to be. But the point is, we | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
are confusing two things. We are confusing God's purpose for the | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
best of society, which is marriage is between a man and a woman, and | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
the problem we have with civil partnerships at the moment, is the | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
slippery slope, we were told, first of all, this is nothing to do with | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
marriage, it is just an economic arrangement, then we're told, well | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
now we are going to have it in religious premises. Would you be | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
horrified to see gay marriage sanctioned by the church? I would | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
think that would be completely contrary to the church's foundation | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
documents of scripture and the church's teaching since the time of | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
Jesus, Jesus of course didn't say anything as such about | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
homosexuality relationships, he said a great deal about matter j | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
and a great deal about those things that are in marriage. Do you feel | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
out of step with the other side of your church? The great thing about | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
the Church of England is it is broad church. Canon Sugden and I | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
are in the same church, and the great thing about the Anglican DNA | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
is it is inclusive and glues us together. This letter says it is | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
down to individual conscience, which is way of holding us all | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
together in the big tent of Anglicanism. | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
The painter, Lucian Freud, who died last year, was famous for the | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
unsparing gaze he trained upon the subject of his portraits, one | :40:51. | :40:58. | |
critic wrote about the unconsoling canned dor of the nueds he painted. | :40:58. | :41:04. | |
-- candour of the nudes he painted. A great exhibition will be opening | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
soon in London, and Stephen Smith, an artist, has been speaking to his | :41:12. | :41:21. | |
:41:22. | :41:24. | ||
daughter, Esther Freud, her first interview since her father's death. | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
I'm sure lots of models used to long for the look of their painting | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
to be easier on the eye than it ended up being. But I think the | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
more people knew his work, you started to appreciate how rigorous | :41:36. | :41:42. | |
he was, when he looked at anything. He looked at it with a hawk-like | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
stare. He didn't just glaze over and look and see what he wanted to | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
see, he tried to see what he really saw. The idea that people shouldn't | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
look like that at each other, seems completely crazy. Obviously, if you | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
are really courageous, you do look, it doesn't mean you lock with | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
aggression, you just look -- look with aggression, you just look with | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
open eyes. For any art form you have to do that. The more | :42:08. | :42:18. | |
:42:18. | :42:24. | ||
penetratingly you look at someone, the more you will find there. | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
you feel self-conscious sitting for your father, in one of them you are | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
not wearing anything? I never felt self-conscious about wearing | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
clothes or being naked, I was used to art being created out of family | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
and friends. You feel you are contributing to something really | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
wonderful, and the rest of the world fades away. A little cocoon | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
of an ancient world you dip into, where the phone didn't ring, and | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
no-one was going to ring the doorbell. He managed to keep life | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
at bay, in order to get on with his work. He was very, very strict | :42:56. | :43:06. | |
:43:06. | :43:10. | ||
He was an extraordinary honest person, and so you knew where you | :43:10. | :43:17. | |
were with him. He didn't pretend to be capable of things he wasn't | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
capable of. Although he was a very unusual person, and an unusual | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
father to have, he didn't say, oh I'll take you to the zoo, and then | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
not turn up, he never said he would take you to the zoo, it was out of | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
the question. You really knew where you were, something very comforting | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
about that. Could it be scary to be with your father, was that a | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
slightly edge of the seat experience sometimes? Yes. He | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
created a sense of danger around him. I remember as children once we | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
decided to drive to Scotland, he wanted to visit some people that we | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
were also friends with. We drove in this wonderful old car, very fast, | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
chatting away. Then after quite a long time we realised we were being | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
followed by the police. We pulled over and the policeman said do you | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
know how fast you were going. They said we have been following you for | :44:09. | :44:17. | |
half an hour you have been going 100. He said we were in a hurry to | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
go to Scotland, but we were actually in Wales. We just headed | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
out of London. It always felt exciting. | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
He once told me when I put a bet on three times in a row and won twice, | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
and the third time lost, and said I don't think I will do that again, | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
he said you're not a gambler. I said I loved winning, he said you | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
have to like losing, that is what a gambler is. He liked losing, it | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
stimulated him, because then he had no money and better do some work. | :44:49. | :44:56. | |
Once he was earning a lot of money for his paintings, it would take | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
too much time to gamble it away, and he wouldn't have time to work, | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
it was counter-productive. seemed to have been extremely | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
single minded, did he have an inner gyroscope, or voice saying this is | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
the thing to do, or was he susceptible to critics? He knew how | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
he wanted it to be. When I first sat for him, he was definitely more | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
frustrated, he used to stab himself with the paint brush sometimes, and | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
stamp. Stab himself with a paint brush? Not drawing blood. Blotches | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
over the tunic? There was a feeling of tension and frustration. Which | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
definitely eased off over the years. He became more patient, maybe his | :45:39. | :45:48. | |
strokes were insurer, and he was less frustrate -- sureer, and he | :45:48. | :45:57. | |
was less frustrated as he got older. He loved to read the papers, he | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
bought every paper every day, looking through it. He was very | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
interested, he had a twinkle in his eye about everything, he was | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
interested in everything and anything, he loved to hear snippets | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
of news stories about people he didn't even know. He had a great | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
zest for life, and he didn't actually want his time to be wasted | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
by having to engage with almost any of it. | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
I really accepted him exact low how he was. He was a very interesting | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
and -- exactly how he was. He was a very interesting and exciting | :46:29. | :46:37. | |
father he was. I knew he was different from other fathers, but I | :46:37. | :46:43. | |
always felt lucky. Esther Freud talking there, the exhibition of | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
Lucian Freud opens next week. That's all tonight, Gavin's here | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
tomorrow, from all of us here, good tomorrow, from all of us here, good | :46:48. | :46:58. | |
:46:58. | :47:22. | ||
Another cold and frostyo start tomorrow morning, one or two snow | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
showers across the east, across Kent. For the vast majority it is a | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
sunny but bitterly cold winter's day once more. There will be fine | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
conditions across much of northern England, eventually temperatures | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
will creep bofr freezing. It could see snow heading towards East | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
Anglia on Friday evening. For most of the day it will be sunny, South- | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
West expect sparkling blue skies. With winds it will feel less cold | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
than recent days, lots of sunshine to come across Wales, a fine day | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
here. Fine for most of Northern Ireland, dry and bright in the east, | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
but in the west it will cloud over with wet weather edging in here, we | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
could see snow over the tops of the hills, that rain eventually | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
reaching the Western Isles and Scotland. Scotland dry, fine and | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
sunny but cold. We will see wet weather working across the country | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
on Saturday. As it arrives it could well bring a little bit of snow | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
across parts of Scotland in Northern Ireland, more likely | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
further south to bring heavier snow on Saturday night. Some uncertainty | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
about where exactly the snow will fall, exactly how much there will | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
be, as the wet weather bumps into the cold air, we could well start | :48:32. | :48:36. |