Browse content similar to 06/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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We don't know precisely how many people have been killed by the | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
Syrian army, as President Assad tries to murder those who oppose | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
his dictatorship, but we do know they include children. All this | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
while China and Russia provide a form of diplomatic protection. | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
They bury their dead children at night in Homs, because to do | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
otherwise can be suicidal. If this is where relying on the UN Security | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
Council gets you, what else is possible? | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
The international diplomatic effort hit the buffers on Saturday, now | :00:37. | :00:44. | |
there is talk of a coalition of the willing. Calling itself, The | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
Friends of Syria. Bosses at Network Rail denounce | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
their bonus, will anyone dare risk the finger-pointing and accept one. | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
I will ask the Transport Secretary to name a single taxpayer-backed | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
enterprise where the bosses deserve a bonus. | :01:02. | :01:09. | |
A judge sets free an extremist cleric that cites mass murder, why | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
isn't the state free to protect itself. | :01:12. | :01:22. | |
:01:22. | :01:25. | ||
Jackie Mason, the man who gave up Bat Mitzvas for performing speaks | :01:25. | :01:33. | |
to us. His supporters and toadies call him | :01:33. | :01:41. | |
Abu, father, some father, Bashar al-Assad's troops are shelling | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
Syrian civilians indiscriminatly, and the United Nations is not | :01:47. | :01:54. | |
embold ened enough to do anything. China, Russia -- Britain and the US | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
have turned to The Government in Syria has been | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
called a failed and murderous regime. | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
We have just returned from siria, we asked our reporter to find out | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
what he could. All day today, yesterday and the | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
day before, the city at the heart of Syria's uprising has been | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
shaking to the sound of a Government bombardment. | :02:19. | :02:26. | |
Allah hu Akbar. In reply, the rebels shout back their defiance, | :02:26. | :02:33. | |
"God is most great" they cry. hu Akbar. | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
TRANSLATION: Believe me, Homs is ablaze, you don't want to be here | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
now. Dead body in the streets, under the wreckage of destroyed | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
buildings, wounded people in their hundreds. | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
Film posted on the Internet apparently shows some of those | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
injured being treated in a makeshift hospital in Homs today. | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
This doctor is telling a victim he has Russia and China to thank for | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
his wounds. The countries that vetoed the UN Security Council | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
resolution at the workend, that would have called on the Syrian | :03:03. | :03:12. | |
Government to end the bloodshed. The UN gave the Syrian army, they | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
gave Assad's army the OK and green light to kill more. They have | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
bombed one of our hospitals, killed the doctors and the nurses and the | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
patients in there. We have only one hospital left. The injured people | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
are on the floor, dead people are on the floor. We don't have enough | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
doctors. We only have four doctors, in that field hospital, what can | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
they do. The uprising that started nearly a | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
year ago in Deraa, has now spread to towns across Syria, even to some | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
parts of the capital, Damascus. But it is Homs, Syria's third-largest | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
city, that has seen much of the worst violence. It is divided into | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
a patchwork of pro-Government and anti-Government districts. Thecy | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
centre is controlled by the authorities, along with loyalist | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
neighbourhoods, which include Al- Zahara and Akrama, around them a | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
ring of areas controlled by the rebt, by the Government is now | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
trying -- the rebels, which the Government is now trying to pound. | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
It is thought to be the worst bombardment here since the uprising | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
began, with heavier artillery, including multiple rocket launchers | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
being deployed by the state. We are living in the middle of | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
bombardments by rocket launchers, they have been hitting us with | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
rockets from 5.00am. This is the first time they have used rocket | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
launchers, and hit us with rockets. They usually hit us with mortar | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
bombs and tank shells. Among those killed, wrapped in this shroud, a | :04:50. | :04:58. | |
seven-year-old girl. Like other victims, she was buried, | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
hurriedly at night, without ceremony. Fear that those carrying | :05:01. | :05:09. | |
the body might themselves be hit. It is in the district of Baba Amr, | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
that the bombardment has been particularly heavy. This apartment | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
in Baba Amr had to be abandoned today, after being hit by a shell, | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
according to activists that filmed it. The beds had been used as a | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
field hospital to treat the wounded. When you try to cross the street | :05:26. | :05:33. | |
and move out of your neighbourhood, the sniebers shoot you. As - | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
snipers shoot you. They are bombing a civilian house, civilian | :05:38. | :05:45. | |
buildings. They are using tanks. The Russian tanks. They are using | :05:45. | :05:52. | |
mortars and shells. Today they are trying to use missile launchers. | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
But they didn't. But across the city, the district | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
of Zahara, is solidly behind the Government. Newsnight was taken | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
there recently on a tour organised by the authorities, past a series | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
of sandbagged military checkpoints and mortgage traits of Bashar al- | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
Assad. -- portraits of Bashar al- Assad. Unusually there is also a | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
poster that promotes his brother, who is thought to be more hardline. | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
In Zahara most of the people are Alawites, part of the same Shi'ite | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
sect that the President belongs to. Many have links to the security | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
forces. Some say they have been forced to flee from their homes in | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
Homs. Even here they say they are targeted by opposition snipers. | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
Those killed today in Homs, certainly include some rebel | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
fighters. This man was shot in an attack on a Government position. | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
But most victims are civilians. Who will protect them now? With no | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
diplomatic agreement on how to deal with the Syrian regime, many on the | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
opposition side, like these protestors in Damascus today, are | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
increasingly hoping they can obtain more weapons to defend themselves. | :07:04. | :07:11. | |
Our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban, is here in the studio. How have the | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
response supports of this UN resolution have reacted to the | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
blocking? With the strongest language one can remember on a | :07:19. | :07:26. | |
diplomatic matter for many years. France, UK, US, using words like | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
"scandal", "shame", it really has been a very strong reaction. | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, continued in much the | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
same vein in the Commons today. Speaker, there is no need to mince | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
words about this, Russia and China have twice vetoed reasonable and | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
necessary action by the UN curt council. Such vetos are a betrayal | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
of the Syrian people n deploying them they have let down the Arab | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
League, they have increased the likelihood of what they wished to | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
avoid in Syria, civil war, and they have placed themselves on the wrong | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
side of Arab and international opinion. | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
What options are open to people like William Hague, or the American | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
a second, now? He and the French today were talking about this | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
coalition of the willing, the called Friends of Syria. This is | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
the Contact Group idea, the Arab League plus a few years, obviously | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
the UK and France among them. Their options are very, very limited, | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
supply arms, there is an EU arms embargo, most countries wouldn't | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
wish to go that far straight away. Any attempt to extend international | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
restrictive action, of course, would have to go back to the | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
Security Council, maybe their only option is to attempt to build | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
bridges with Russia and China again. We will explore this in a minute or | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
two. The intriguing question is why the Russians did it? There are | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
views it was a bit like Britain's veto in the EU, it was a failed | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
negotiating tactic. Some reports out of the UN suggested the UN | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
ambassador, and the Chinese were reassuring people on Friday that we | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
can do and deal and then it all went wrong, they say they were | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
moved too quickly to the vote. Some say they were directed, they took | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
political instruction, and Moscow took the lead, that Sergei Lavrov, | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
the Foreign Minister, was very important, and he decided they | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
should block this, because it looked too much like regime change, | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
Iraq, Libya, very different tactics, but the same result, he felt the | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
westerners wanted, today he was unrepentants. | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
-- Unrepentant. TRANSLATION: Some voices in the west giving their | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
opinion on the vote sound obscene, on the verge of hysteria, it brings | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
to mind the saying "he who gets angry, is rarely in the right". | :09:43. | :09:50. | |
Do the Russians regard the survival of Assad's regime as a vital | :09:50. | :10:00. | |
interest? There are echos of the old Cold War game today, and a | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
Turkish contingent accused them of this. We saw a few weeks ago the | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
Russian aircraft Admiral appearing off the Syrian coast. The Syrian | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
high command on board to be feted by Syrian military people and shown | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
the hardware on forward. Russia has a base in Syria for naval vessels, | :10:20. | :10:29. | |
it has a signals intelligence camp, it has been training the Syrians | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
for decades. Is that what it is about. No Russian Foreign Minister | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
say the survival of Bashar al-Assad himself is not part of the Russian | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
interest, they say it would have created civil war, because places | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
were being led to a civil war and massacre. Many think the objective | :10:47. | :10:55. | |
of thwarting US objectives still is very important in Moscow. | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
To discuss the next steps for Syria I'm joined by an opposition | :11:00. | :11:07. | |
activisted base in -- based in the UK. And a former Russian | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
intelligence adviser. Are you comfortable having the | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
blood of Syrians on your hands? think we again have a situation | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
where we tend to this, this is black and this is white. So there | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
is nothing inbetween. I: That is between a vote in favour and a veto | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
it is pretty black and white? of all the Russian Government asked | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
the United Nations to postpone the voting for a few days until Sergei | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
Lavrov goes to Syria and talks to Assad. That did not happen. That | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
was steam rolling very quick low. Secondly, the fact that two | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
permanent members of the Security Council, are voting against the | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
resolution is already an important development in itself. It just | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
shows that not everybody agrees with the situation. Thirdly, if you | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
look at the text of the resolution, it was not enforcible. The deadline | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
was 21 days, it was impossible to achieve all the measures that were | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
listed in that resolution, so the Russians thought that if that | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
doesn't work, the next stage would be military interference. And the | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
actual consequence, was, clearly, that the regime in Damascus, felt | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
it had some how got diplomatic cover for the killing of innocent | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
men, women and children? Let me ask you this, what would have happened | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
if everybody turned against Assad's regime, do you imagine the | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
desperation of these people in Damascus, you would have seen a | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
slaughter. You would have seen the supporters of Assad turning into | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
killing machines, because we already witnessed how desperate | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
dictators and what they do. This is not something decided forever, this | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
blockage of that resolution. The diplomatic process will continue, | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
Sergei Lavrov is going there to continue that process. How does it | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
look if you are a Syrian activist? Well, I think the Russian | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
Government is taking this as an excuse, civil war is happening | :13:17. | :13:25. | |
already in Syria. The supporters of the regime may blame the opposition | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
for that, because the Syrian National Council has not come with | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
a clear political programme to reassure the minorities, and that | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
is very, very, people have been critical of that. Civil war may | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
have happened already, because two armies are fighting against each | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
other. It looks like civil war? looks like civil war, two armies | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
fighting against each other, the soldiers are the ordinary Syrian | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
people, and the civilians have been killed, so the Russian Government | :13:58. | :14:07. | |
is making this an excuse for the arms market in Syria. | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
With about the arms, by the way, it has been made by many commentators | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
that Russia is providing the Syrian regime with weapons that are used | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
against civilians. Unfortunately it is not the case. The weapons that | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
are provided at the moment are anti-aircraft systems, anti-ship | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
systems, you can't use those things against the civilian population. | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
That is an important thing, to remember. But there are big | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
interest, big Russian interests in Syria, Mark mentioned one of them, | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
the naval base, the military base? Syria has been Russia's ally since | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
the Soviet times, so what's unusual about that? It is that particular | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
regime in Sir ia? It is the same, - - Syria? It is the same, I can say | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
that America is supporting Saudi Arabia because it has been its ally | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
for many years. And Saudi Arabia is not exactly a beacon of democracy. | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
There are certain national and international interests and allies | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
operating on different levels, but you can't just say that Russia has | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
done this because it has a military base there, and it wants to keep | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
Assad, whatever it takes. Russia wants diplomatic efforts to | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
continue. If it didn't, Sergei Lavrov would not be going to | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
Damascus. That is as simple as that. Any other solutions may lead to the | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
same consequences, killing more civilians, and civil war, | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
inflamming a civil war, any other options that we have at the moment, | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
the UN Security Council have been too late to take any decision, any | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
other options we have at the moment is inflamming civil war. So that | :15:50. | :16:00. | |
:16:00. | :16:05. | ||
isn't an excuse to be honest. there a Russian end game? China and | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
Russia remember the end game of Libya, you may say it is a good | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
development that Gaddafi is removed, but what we are seeing in Libya now | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
is a revival of the civil war. The new powers are not exactly brimming | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
with desire to support human rights and democracy. So, we don't really | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
want a chain reaction like that going across the whole of the | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
Middle East. I think it is very wise decision to let diplomacy work. | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
You are on your own, aren't you? are, we have been left alone to | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
face the machine of killing, it has been around 11 months and no-one is | :16:46. | :16:54. | |
actually taking or acting in favour of the Syrian people. Russia is | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
always blocking any. It is not just Russia, it is also China? Of course, | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
but Russia is taking the lead. what sense? China has exactly the | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
same position, it wants diplomacy to work? Now that Sergei Lavrov is | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
going to Syria tomorrow, we will see what diplomatic solution he has | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
got, and will act on that. Thank you very much. | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
It is either a brilliant, decisive intervention, by one of the more | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
recent appointments to the cabinet, or a political stunt | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
significantfying nothing shrech. The bosses of -- significantfying | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
nothing much. The bosses of Network Rail have decided to forego bonuses | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
and spend the money on imgovernments to the rail. Which | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
means the meeting to vote against isn't necessary, but was it all a | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
got up drama. Before we ask the transport | :17:46. | :17:56. | |
:17:56. | :17:59. | ||
secretary we report. The game has the nation gripped, | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
every contestant goes home empty handed, or lighter in the pocket. | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
First there was Sir Philip Hamilton, and Stephen Hester from RBS, the | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
Sun's headline a work of genius in itself. | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
This week it is another of those strange, not quite private, not | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
quite public operations, Network Rail. The a second has been trying | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
to put pressure on the executive directors to give up their bonuses, | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
and, well, plenty of people agree. I don't think it should be on the | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
table for them. The chief executive is paid �560,000 a year, which my | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
guess is he could probably about scrape by on. Last year Network | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
Rail was found to be in breach of its license by the rail regulation, | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
rail freight movements are suffering a 30% increase in delays, | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
passenger trains haven't met the industry's own targets for | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
pubgtality, there is no justification, at the moment, | :18:53. | :19:02. | |
certainly, for rewarding that kind of performance. If you have been | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
following the game at home, you will know what happens next is an | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
enormous split kal spat between Labour and the Government over | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
whether ministers have the power to veto the bonus. | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
Simply by reading the articles of negotiation, we can see Network | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
Rail can be pointed to the remuneration committee and give | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
prior consent to changes. It amounts to a veto if the a second | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
would choose to use it. According to the Department of Transfor the, | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
ministers don't have the power to veto individual bonuses, consent is | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
only needed if the overall incentive policy changes, which at | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
Network Rail hasn't for years. But do these executives need | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
bonuses at all to invent advise them? There is a real problem -- | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
incentivise them? There is a problem because the bonuses are | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
around safety and the number of trains that are late. That all | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
comes from external factors, one bad accident could upset the | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
figures or snow, for example, that reduces their notional bonuses by a | :20:11. | :20:18. | |
bit. That is nonsensical. Basically the rail industry is a boring u-- | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
utility, where people should do the same thing, day after day after day, | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
and do it efficient low and effectively, that is not the | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
culture where you need big bonuses to make people do the right thing. | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
Network Rail bosses, then, had less wriggle room than commuters on the | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
7.08, and not want to go replace RBS bosses in the public's | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
affection, they decided they could probably do without the cash. | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
Bosses at Network Rail have decided to go without their bonuses this | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
year. Does all this mean that the Network | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
Rail gravy train has come to a grinding halt? No, according toe | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
one former transport minister. think -- According to one former | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
transport minister? I think it is the end of bonuses, but there is a | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
five-year plan for directors of Network Rail, which if they go | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
through in the current form, will mean effectively a doubling of | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
directors' and the chief executive's salary every year for | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
five years. Every year for five years? It is a 100% increase for | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
five years. That is still on the stable. The a second understands | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
that is still on the table, she has asked them not to take it further | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
until she publishes a command paper on the structure in two weeks time, | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
it is still live. How does Network Rail justify their executive pay, | :21:42. | :21:49. | |
they base it on the middle point for FTSE 100 companies' executive | :21:49. | :21:59. | |
:21:59. | :22:25. | ||
pay, why there? The company has an I don't think there is a great need | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
to pay these people enormous sums of money, to do basically what is a | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
fairly routine mundane job, on the whole. | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
Thanks for playing Network Rail, can we have our next competitor | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
please? The hot spot probably won't be empty for long. | :22:45. | :22:55. | |
:22:55. | :22:55. | ||
Earlier this evening I spoke to the Transport Secretary, Andy Green. | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
Justine Greening, the people at Network Rail say the decision to | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
forego their bonuses was taken last week. Did you know that? No, I was | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
called by Matthew Higgins today, to be hold that -- David Higgins today | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
to be told that decision. I think it is a sensible decision and one I | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
welcome. If they did take the decision last week, all your | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
anxiety and plans to go to the members' meeting would be just a | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
stunt, wouldn't they? I don't think so, actually. That provision has | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
been there ever since Network Rail was set up by the last Government. | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
I think no Transport Secretary has ever tried to use it before. I | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
thought it was important to stand up, frankly, for tax-payers, and | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
their concerns about these bonuses, that is what I was quite prepared | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
to do. Do you think your intervention was crucial to this | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
decision which the Network Rail bosses say was taken last week? | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
was a Network Rail decision, and you have to ask them about how they | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
made the decision. Do you think your intervention made any | :23:57. | :24:05. | |
difference at all? There was no doubt it was my job to stick up for | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
tax-payers and fare payers, I have no doubt that Network Rail would | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
have looked across that at the weekend, but it was a decision for | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
them. And indeed a decision they say they took last week? You have | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
made that point, and as I say, I think in terms of how Network Rail | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
reach their decision, really you would be better off asking them. I | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
was quite right to be prepared to stand up for tax-payers and fare | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
payers. Do you think bonuses are ever legitimate in the public | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
sector? It is perfectly fine to have an element of pay that is | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
performance related, I think what people do want to see, though, is, | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
first of all, for it to be administered fairly, secondly, it | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
does have to relate to performance. The other thing they expect is a | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
little bit of transparency and accountability. That has been | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
lacking at Network Rail, and it is one of the things that I'm looking | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
at tackling in the rail strategy paper that I'm finishing now. That | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
is another reason why I felt the decision to go ahead with bonuses | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
and Network Rail have now gone back on that, that this was simply not | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
right time to do it. The policy apparently at Network Rail is | :25:13. | :25:20. | |
remuneration is, "benchmarked to the median FTSE 100 company", is | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
that appropriate? That is a question for Network Rail and their | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
members. I'm asking you your opinion? My opinion is Network Rail | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
ultimately need to take their own decision, alongside their members, | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
on the appropriate pay and incentives package. The point I | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
have been making over recent days, is I don't think that governance | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
structure is in place for that to happen appropriately. That is one | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
of the reasons why I was prepared to go to the general meeting that | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
was happening this week, which has now been postponed, it is also one | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
of the reasons why I was planning to strengthen Network Rail | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
governance in the command paper coming out on rail reform over the | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
next few weeks. You are more familiar than most with how Network | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
Rail operates. It isn't like a FTSE 100 company, is it? Network Rail is | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
a private company in the sense that it is there to run the track on | :26:12. | :26:20. | |
which our trains operate. Could it go bust? Network Rail, ultimately, | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
will run its organisation in a way that should deliver good taxpayer | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
value for money. You won't let it go bust, would you? This is key to | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
the comparison with the FTSE 100 companies correction it go bust? | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
Network Rail is an independent of Government institution. Subsidised | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
by the taxpayer? I don't think the question arises of it going bust, I | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
think the key point is to make sure it is set up in a way. What people | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
watching this will want to know, is it is not the finer detail of its | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
balance sheet, the key point is whether Network Rail is set up in a | :26:53. | :26:59. | |
way to enable it to deliver railway performance that I want to see, | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
passengers and the public want to see. What we have seen over recent | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
days is the fact in which bonuses and incentives were structured by | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
the last Government, in terms of how that framework gets agreed. It | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
is simply not strong enough to come out with the right sort of package | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
to make sure the incentives are really there and responsibly there. | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
That is precisely what I'm seeking to address. Can you tell us of one | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
business in wit taxpayer has a substantial stake, in -- in which | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
the taxpayer has a substantial stake, that you think bonuses would | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
be appropriate? I have always said bonuses are appropriate if they | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
relate to good performance. Can you give us an example of a good | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
performance? I think at the end of the day if you look at Network Rail | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
going forward, what we are trying to achieve with the rail strategy. | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
That is an example of a company where you believe bonuses are not | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
legitimate. I'm asking for an example where you think they are | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
legitimate? It is not appropriate for me to comment across the piece. | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
You think it is OK to comment on where they are not legitimate, when | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
are they legitimate? It is not up to me to comment on other | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
Government departments where I'm not in a position to say whether or | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
not the bonus structures in place are appropriate. As Transport | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
Secretary I can comment on Network Rail, that is what I have been | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
prepared to do over the weekend. Most people would I think I took | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
xablgtly the right stance, prepared to go -- exactly the right stance, | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
to be prepared to go to the Annual General Meeting, to represent fare | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
payers and tax-payers, and I'm pleased Network Rail have taken the | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
decision they would not take the bonuses they planned, if they are | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
due they will put them into improving level crossings. You set | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
a precedent here. Can you give me an example of a single company, | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
either within your department, or elsewhere, or getting tax-payers' | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
money through your department or elsewhere, where you think bonuses | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
are legitimate? I don't believe I have set a precedent, all I have | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
done is simply used the provisions within the Network Rail governance | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
structure, to make sure I stood up for tax-payers and fare payers, | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
that was the right thing to do. The governance structure was there, the | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
only difference is unlike the last Government who put it in place, | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
they were never prepared use it. I actually was, that was the right | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
thing to do. So you have set a precedent? I haven't set a | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
precedent. The only precedent there is the fact I'm willing to use the | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
mechanism already in place. What I'm saying is that mechanism was | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
not strong enough within Network Rail, that is what we need to | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
improve. Thank you. | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
He apparently hates Jews, anyone who if he effects from Islam and | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
Americans, he has been described as Osama Bin Laden's righthand man in | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
Europe. He doesn't hate the west so much that he wants to leave it and | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
return to the Middle East, instead, Abu Qatada has used European law to | :29:54. | :30:00. | |
stay in this country. Which he entered illegally, and not to be | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
sent to Jordan to stand trial. Despite the Home Office's view he's | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
a very dangerous man, an immigration judge ruled he should | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
be free from high-security prison. Talk us through what happened? | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
cases make bad law. This is a hard case. Videos of Abu Qatada, to | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
remind you, were found in the Hamburg apartment of some of the | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
9/11 attackers, some of his sermons. He has been called Osama Bin | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
Laden's righthand man in Europe, Al-Qaeda's spiritual leader in | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
Europe, a truly dangerous individual, and a the most | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
significant extremist preacher in the UK. Today it is decided he | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
should be released from prison, where he has spent six-and-a-half | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
years of the last ten years, because the judge said in the | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
absence of any charge or allegation against him he can't be held any | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
longer. The British Government want to extradite him back to Jordan, | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
because there he faces terrorist offences, but the European Court of | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
Human Rights last month ruled that couldn't happen, because the | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
evidence against him in Gordon Brown may well have been obtained | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
through torture, he has to stay. What have the British judges had to | :31:11. | :31:17. | |
say about it? Three years ago in a landmark judge, Lord Philips, said | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
the fact that the evidence against him in Jordan may have been | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
obtained against him in torture was irrelevant, if he was a danger to | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
national security he should be ejected. But today the immigration | :31:33. | :31:40. | |
jurpblg, Lord Justice Mitting, ruled in the judge, Lord Justice | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
Mitting ruled that, in favour of the European Court ruling, that he | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
had to be released from house arrest by the end of this week. He | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
also said that within three months f the Government hasn't settled | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
with the Jordanians some means by which Qatada should be sent back to | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
Jordan, he should be freed in the UK, without any strings attached. | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
What happens now? The British Government have said that they are | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
not happy about this. The Home Office say he will be bailed from | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
the prison where he has been, within a week. The Home Office say | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
they disagree with the decision, and say this is a dangerous man who | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
poses a threat to security, and hasn't changed his views to the UK. | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
They are considering their legal actions in response to the European | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
Court's ruling. We're joined by Roger Smith a | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
lawyer and director of justice, a campaign organisation involved with | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
Abu Qatada's case. And by Douglas Murray, an author and associate | :32:42. | :32:48. | |
director with the democracy Campaign Group, the Henry Jackson | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
Society. Are you pleased this dangerous man is walking the | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
street? I don't have a brief or act for Abu Qatada, but what should | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
happen to him is due process. Two points, if he's as dangerous as was | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
said and we have just been told, then he has committed offences in | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
this country, and should be charged in the normal way. He never has | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
been. Secondly, the real person should also be here is Jordan, | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
there is a real problem, because the justice system in Jordan is not | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
reliable. He has been convicted abroad, hasn't he? He has been | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
convicted twice in Jordan. On the basis of evidence by two people who | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
retracted it and said they had originally given their evidence | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
under the influence of torture. you think we should just take a | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
risk and let this bloke wander around this country? I think there | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
is a clash of seeing the world as national states who have entire | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
national control over what happens, and international norms of human | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
rights. I think he should be dealt with according to norms of human | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
rights. What do you think should happen to him? I think he should be | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
returned to Jordan tomorrow. Despite the fact he might face | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
trial, he could face risk himself, and face a trial where evidence | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
could be produced that was obtained under torture? He won't face risk | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
to himself. This country to considerable expense and amount of | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
time under the Labour Government, sought a memrand dumb of | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
understanding with Jordan, where he would not be mistreated in Jordan | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
if he was tried there. It was only last month, the European Court of | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
Human Rights for the first time cited article 6 on the right to a | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
fair trial issue. Claiming it was an issue of whether or not people | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
in the trial of Abu Qatada in Gordon Brown might themselves have | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
been mistreated, that is why we are in the mess. The European Court of | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
Human Rights kept on moving the goal posts, that is why we are here, | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
they kept on doing that. It is not unusual for European states to | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
simply significant nor the European Courts, it can't enforce the | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
judgments. There is no reason why we can't do what Italy and France | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
have done, ignore the courts. The day after the European Court would | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
say, in a strongly-worded statement that they condemned the British | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
Government for doing this. We could simply do what, as I say our allies | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
have done on the continent and ignore the court. Why can't we do | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
that? We believe in due process, and the Government does too. The | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
issue is torture, what position do we as the UK take about torture. | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
this is a ruling of the European Court of Human Rights, why not just | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
ignore it? Because we signed up to the European convention. So have | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
all the other countries? We are only the country that so completely | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
runs by the letter of the law of the European Court. The European | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
Court has shown repeated low that in cases of national security, it | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
cannot have a -- repeatedly that in cases of national security, it | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
cannot have countries like this and France and others having their best | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
interests. In a case like this, making sure that Abu Qatada, who | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
came to Britain illegally in 1993, on a forged UAE passport, is given | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
every right that the European Court can invent, year after year, | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
changing the goal posts, it is very God at that. What it is not good at | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
doing, is securing, through its judgment, a genuinely fair process, | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
to apart from anything else, ensure, that people in Britain do not have | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
a known extremist, and a known hate monger, as somebody who has made a | :36:17. | :36:24. | |
career, as the judgment said in 2007, who has such reach in his | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
network that it is said it was incalculable. They said that in | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
2007, and now because of the European Court and 2012, the man | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
will walk the streets. You don't think we need to worry about due | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
process and collecting proper evidence? We do, and this country | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
has done everything it could to go through that due process. Thatth | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
has gone to appeal in the laws and every court in the land, everything. | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
The only thing is the European Court consistently has moved the | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
goal posts over recent years and only last month, for the first time, | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
used article 6, this new part. The issue was not whether he himself | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
was mistreated if he went back to Jordan to face trial, it was | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
whether any evidence used against him was obtained in that way. | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
you not slightlym uncomfortable with our courts going by the rouls | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
of a foreign court and judgment, to protect a man who advocates killing | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
people? It is not an easy case, and you can't make an easy judgment. | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
What the European Court has done, is consistently drawn a bright line | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
around torture, saying Article Three prevents it and complicity | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
with it. It has extended the meaning of that, so you cannot | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
throw somebody back to another country, where he will there is a | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
reasonable chance he will this be torture. I think that is right. It | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
isn't true to say, it isn't true that we are the only country that | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
complies with it. Sweden, the whole Scandinavian countries, the | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
countries of the Council of Europe comply. Do you think the countries | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
signing up to this court, that don't abide by the rulings? | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
repeat offenders are Russia and Turkey, I would like to be a | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
citizen of a country that is different from that and accepts the | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
due process. We signed up to the court, we should obey to it. | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
Neither France nor Italy are barbaric countries that don't | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
expect the rule of law. They respect the rule of law, but they | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
also respect the fact that Italian and French citizens have the right | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
not to have people like Abu Qatada walking in their midst. Why not | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
leave the court f it is such a problem? That is one of the problem, | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
if the coalition Government were to do what David Cameron said he would | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
like to do before the election, and remove ourselves from the | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
convention and the jurisdiction of the court. Another option is when | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
they come up with completely bonkers judgments, as they have | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
repeatedly with Qatada, is to ignore them. The other is to do | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
what we are currently doing, is to be very British about it, following | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
the complete letter of the law, to an extent no other country does, | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
and do what the main allies on the country don't do it. He says it is | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
not no other countries, the Scandinavian companies? No other | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
countries with a figure like Abu Qatada, has gone to this length to | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
protect him. No other country has gone that far. Italy and France are | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
not backward countries f they can disobey the European Court and get | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
an understand pleasant splap on the wrist, we could do that, and Abu | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
Qatada would be facing trial in Jordan, with a memoranda, meaning | :39:28. | :39:36. | |
he wouldn't face bad treatment. is madness to say leave the Council | :39:36. | :39:42. | |
of Europe, that wo mean the same as Belarus, only if you go to Belarus | :39:42. | :39:48. | |
do you leave the countries of the koum of Europe. It is madness -- | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
countries -- Council of Europe. It is madness to say that. We go | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
around the world bringing human rights, sometimes at the point of a | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
gun, it is ridiculous to say also we shouldn't follow decisions of | :39:58. | :40:08. | |
:40:08. | :40:12. | ||
the court. Mariana Mazzucato is in town, -- | :40:12. | :40:18. | |
He has had a big influence on other stand-up comedians, he's now 75, | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
this is expected to be one of his very last tours unless there is | :40:22. | :40:32. | |
:40:32. | :40:40. | ||
I have a date with comedy legend, Paul Mason, Jacky Mason, he says | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
this will be his farewell set of dates in the UK, he's 75. Unless I | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
want to buy something, that is a different problem, that is a joke. | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
I like it. In this country I have socialised medicine, in the United | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
States every doctor is a crook. I tell them to their faces and every | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
show I do on Broadway, I call them coox, they are not insults. -- | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
crooks. They are not insults in the United States, you know why? They | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
know their crooks. Why do you think he wears a mask when he operates, | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
he don't want to see you what he's doing. The used to be full-time | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
rabbi has played to full houses throughout the UK, including the | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
London Palladium. What I'm most proud of is I keep | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
winning awards in the United States for getting the biggest amount of | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
laughs in a single show. I have gotten that award seven years in a | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
row from that society, that judges and counts laughs per show. What do | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
you put it down to? Desperately hard work, and an amazing amount of | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
talent. That must be the answer. And the fact that the other people | :41:49. | :41:57. | |
are not so hot, that also helps. Ahead of his latest and last run in | :41:57. | :42:03. | |
the West End, Mason gave me a comedy masterclass on the | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
storyboards of the wind ham theatre. If there is some kind of insult in | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
the joke, I make sure I don't tell it. Are you king of the world here, | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
are you wooing the audience, what is the idea? The idea is I'm the | :42:17. | :42:25. | |
boss because I'm here. I don't try to dominate an audience, but I try | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
to involve them as much as possible in what I'm saying. I'm creating a | :42:30. | :42:39. | |
sense of warmth, of intmcy. -- Intimacy. On the 60th | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
anniversary of the Queen's accession, he recounted his own | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
encounters with the royal box. came over and thanked me for the | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
show, I said I appreciate you thanking me so much, that is kind | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
of you. I noticed she started to talk like me. No, she started to | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
talk like you? As I'm thanking her, she says thank you very much, and | :43:03. | :43:10. | |
then she says, I tell you the truth, it wasn't that great, but an | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
exceptional show, to be honest with you. I started to talk like an | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
Englishman to be polite, I said thatch I appreciate it t she said, | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
that's OK, don't worry about it. I said to myself, thank God, I turned | :43:24. | :43:32. | |
the Queen into a Jewish lady. Jackie, I know it is unfair, you | :43:32. | :43:38. | |
have just got off the plane, you need to acclimatise. What can a | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
British audience look forward to, are you doing anything about us? | :43:41. | :43:49. | |
Everyone I came here tell me the same story, about this MP who got a | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
traffic ticket when he was riding with his woif, and she claimed that | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
she was the one driving, then they found out he was driving not her, | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
because he started to go out with another girl. Allegedly, it is all | :44:04. | :44:13. | |
spending in the courts? I know it is all allegeded. Thank you for | :44:13. | :44:22. | |
saying it? I'm not doing the show, a news programme has to say alleged. | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
I want to be the only one who shows respect to your Prime Minister, and | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
the only guy today that won't call him a liar, a fake a fraud and | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
phoney, as far as I'm concerned he's an honest man, and I thought | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
Clinton was honest. Why are you suggesting this might be your | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
foinal appearance over here, is this really true -- final | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
appearance over here? Is this really true? When I say it is the | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
final tour, I'm 100% true, that doesn't mean if you give me | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
�100,000 I won't tell you a joke. I will tell you a joke for the right | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
price. That's it, Jackie Mason appearing in London. The Financial | :45:01. | :45:11. | |
:45:11. | :45:40. |