16/02/2012 Newsnight

Tonight - hacking, a newspaper axed, falling sales, and an ongoing

bribery investigation - the British press is in crisis as never before.

Forty years after flying in to buy the Sun, Rupert Murdoch is back to

try and save it but are his shareholders losing patience?

corps was phone as good news and bad news and toxic news.

Do we need to protect our newspapers, or have they had their

day? Also tonight, celebrations a year after the uprising began in

Libya. But though Gaddafi has gone, brutality and divisions remainment

TRANSLATION: I received an an anonymous call telling me my son

was shot and his body was on the beach. We'll discuss the mixed

blessings the Arab Spring has brought across the region. Is this

job advert the solution to Britain's unemployment problem? Is

it valuable experience or just Good evening. 97 years ago Keith

myrhh myrhh came to work in London as a reporter, tonight his son flew

in prepared to address the staff at his newspapers tomorrow. Does the

industry that laid the foundation of the global myrhh myrhh empire

even have a future? Newspapers are battling falling sales, legal

defeats and arrests. The House of Lords suggest the subsidies might

be needed for the investigative journalism a democracy needs.

Read all about it! Rupert flies in to meet the staff they fear he

might drop them in the mire. Journalism is in jeopardy. You

might not need to stop the presses, they could be grinding to a halt

anyway. According to a House of Lords committee, there's a crisis

over investigative journalism - the sort that digs out material,

Government, corporations the powerful, would prefer would be

kept hidden. Serious investigative journalism is changing. In the past

year the wireed world has brought us the wholesale revelations of

Wikileaks and information disk about MPs expenses. Both stories

were bought by newspapers, but both needed journalist toss mediate. The

Lords said the expense exclusive brings the point. They needed a

huge amount of work to analyse that disk, they need to be experts in

data analysis and unrolling the story over time of the number of

journalists engaipblgdz obthat story was enormous. It takes time

to stand up a story Time and expertise and resource, basically,

yes. The problem is declieping circulation. The national press,

down by a quarter over seven million in a decade. Revenues

moving elsewhere, journalism going digital and trying to work out how

to make money in the progress. A media analyst maintaining

investigative work can flourish scales of journalists have to be

turned to the analysts to the massive amount of Government data

that is produced. We are living in an era the ability to put the data

and come up with stories is rich. Snees the sort of thing your

company is involved in. Who will pay for a journalist to take a

flight overseas, to meet a source? You don't understand how the expert

networks of today have developed. We are a looking at worldwide

networks. Everyone I know in journalism, economics, or academic

life has got an expert network which is vast and always growing.

Someone always has to foot the bill. At News International the Sun has

long seemed a strange bed fellow for the Times and Sunday Times.

While the Sun's profits paid for the losses the Times people held

their noses. After this week's arrests however the Sun could

become a legal lieability. It reported today, News Corporation's

passed the police claims the Sun has regularly been paying public

officials as much as �10,000. A Sun journalists are talking of hiring a

human rights lawyer to defend themselves against their own

company. We've been contacted by journalists

who are anxious about their futures at News International and who fear

there are going to be more arrests. We've been contacted by a number of

members of the public, who have been sources at some point in their,

in recent years to journalists at News International, and they fear

their confidentiality is being compromiseed and they simply don't

understand how their details and their relationships with the

journalists have been surrendered by the company. Lord Clement-Jones

says the legal uncertainties are a problem? I think it cast a pall on

the future. This is why we've gone into detail about the way that, for

instance the DPP should look at charging journalists in these

circumstances. We think a set of guidelines and in fact, they have

accepted the need for guidelines on prosecution, that's important.

what is and isn't in the public interest? Absolutely. It looks how

the newspaper itself behaves. it pay a public official under the

criteria? That will be extremely doubtful F there was a scandal

uncovered, only through that process, then the DPP might decide

although an offence had been been committed, technically he did not

wish to prosecute. While Leveson winds on the Lords and legendary

hacks threat about the future. Rupert Murdoch will likely issue

soothing words tomorrow, he is sentimental about his newspapers.

It is journalism of the expensive investigative kind that revealed

the scandal which could yet see Fleet Street go foot.

With me is the jourp list, Joan Smith formerly of the Sunday Times

which has been a victim of phone hacking. Phil Hall of the News of

the World and Carla Buzasi, from The Huffington Post. How do you

think Rupert Murdoch will handle things in Wapping in the morning?

It is difficult for him. He was a great campaigner in his own right

when he took over the business. He will have contradictions deep in

his soul, because you would expect a newspaper to fight in the

application by any authority to find out who their sources are. It

is cornerstone, underpins newspapers that they have the right

to protect their sources. Now he was amendment revealing sources to

the police. So, for the people who work at the Sun, there's the

journalistic principle, like every other journalist is brought up, and

the feeling the amendment is shopping them? I have a business,

with people, whistle-blowers, would you go to News International to

somebody who doesn't want to be identified who is potentially going

to find the people who run the company to identify them f you're

unable to break stories, in the newspaper you're finished. Is it as

broad as that is this Two separate things, one we have a problem about

investigative journalism and that's about resource, and about agenda.

So newspapers have moved away from the expensive thing of doing,

investigations which take months if not years, looking at for example,

the Guardian's investigation to phone hacking. These stories don't

produce instant results and proprietors want that. The rhetoric.

All this is getting overblown. When I worked for the Sunday Times, we

had a good story if true, we're hearing a lot about how sources are

handed over, and journalists are being betrayed. We don't know

that's what has happened. What the News International committee who is

looking into this, they are looking at payments of maybe tens of

thousands to people, who were coverting effectively on the

paper's pay roll and employers didn't know that, and they were

public servants. We don't know, at the moment which of those things is

predominating, and I don't think this is about somebody having lunch

with somebody and that's handed over to the police, it is more

serious. If it is as serious ending up with the demise of the Sun, you

as a victim of phone hacking, would you mourn its loss? This is the

trouble with binary opposition. The question is it is not do we have

sensationalism journalism, used criminal methods, or do we have no

journalism at all. We want investigative journalism, Rupert

Murdoch does not have to close the Sun, he didn't have to close the

News of the World, he had to ensure ethical standards were followed

followed and they could flourish in the end.

Presumably a website like yours, would stand to be the winner, if

this is the death knell for newspapers? When the News of the

World closed last year, which was the week you launched, people said

there's a whole new audience who will log on your website. That's

not how I see t people are buying their newspapers, but they're

getting news from websites and they're using the two. It would be

sad if we saw the demise of all the newspaper brands we've grown up

with, and love in this country. Website like the The Huffington

Post and others which will launch in the years to come, are are, this

is where the media's going, this is the future, but lots of the

publications have digital arms as well, which are important to the

future of their businesses. Phil Hall the old-fashioned newspaper,

how much trouble is it? Newspapers feel set the agenda and the

internet, will take it up and run with it. The bigger problem is

breaking any big story. I was talking to a national newspaper

editor and he said I can't break anything, because Twitter will

break it out before I do. Their agents or PRs are Twittering it and

geting it out there, and control theing, it is hard to break a big

story. Without resources, investigative stories don't break.

I had a team, and sometimes we would break one story every three

months. It is a fatal decline, you souped as if the game is up? It is

up as we've known it. They have to change quickly. One of the issues

newspapers has had, is that traditional prooperatetors, bought

internet businesses and expect them to run as they ran their old

industry. You have to let people expert in that field and adapt.

you adapt successfully, is there a way to make the newspaper

profitable again? The question about business models has been

around for a long time. One of the problems is newspapers embrace the

internet, rush to place content on the internet and didn't think how

they're going to get any return on that. And when people say to me, I

will not pay for news on the internet. What I say is you want

people to go to places like Afghanistan and Syria, and possibly

have their legs blown off and killed and you're not willing to

pay access to the website. We have to make people understand, free

content on the internet is not free to the people who put it there.

foreign journalism, investigative journalism, Carla Buzasi that is

the domain of the newspapers? The The Huffington Post isn't known for

investigative journalism isn't known at the minute? We're a small

operation, but looking at the US arm, who have hundreds of

journalists, we've had people in Syria and Greece, and internet

newspaper sites like ours, as we grow and build a reputation, that

is absolutely is an area we have to play in, because people with coming

to expect us to break the stories. Is that the future, will they pick

up the flak? It is developing all the time, newspapers will move on-

line, because technology will facilitate that. It will make

newspapers more accessible, there are approximates, where you can

access The Huffington Post, Facebook and Twitter and newspaper

all on the same page. So, it would develop, but newspapers have to

develop with it. This model that needs international, that

successfully ran, was that the News of the World was known for scoops

and investigative journalism, the Sun not so much, but they cross-

subsidised? You have to understand the myrhh myrhh's passion for

newspapers kept them alive. It doesn't make money, but at the

moment he can't sell a company, which has lawsuits going on, and

around the clock. Until you know what the value of that is, it will

be hard for him to sell those newspapers. At the moment, they're

giving him 1% of the profit and 100% of the bad publicity.

Something will break. How do you think it will end up for the Sun

and News International? I hope, I'm a journalist, I don't want to see

newspapers close. What I do want to see is a different kind of

journalism and rebalancing of what people actually are offered to read.

I think, newspaper, consumers are in a way passive. If what they're

offered is a constant diet of articles about Big Brother, they're

not going to be saying, they're not covering the trial of a dissent in

bella rus, if you change the balance, that you have the populous

stuff, and you have to have newspapers doing the investigations

and looking at the workings of: Perhaps there's not popular

appetite? It is necessary in a democracy that newspapers do that,

and that's why they're zero rate for VAT, that's that's an

understanding of the role in society, which goes beyond their

commercial existence. To save them, tax breaks this, is what the House

of Lords was suggesting today? How do you feel? Looking at that,

digital have been forgotten, they hadn't thought about the websites

at all. There was interesting things in what came out of the

House of Lords today. But they've got to acknowledge digital is a

large part of the tri, and it will be bigger going forward. I don't

think tax breaks to local newspapers is the answer.

Successful newspaper industry has to remain independent. Tax breaks

link Government to newspapers, and independence is important if

they're to survive. Thank you very much. Now, a stormer erupt on

Twitter and Facebook, after a job advert offered a night shift

position in Tesco in Suffolk. The pay was listed as jobseeker's

allowance plus expenses which would be cheaptor permanent staff. Tesco

admitted it made a mistake and the job was work experience, offered as

part of a Government scheme. But should that work experience be paid

at the going rate? Liz Mackean has been looking into it. An

opportunity to work for Britain's largest private sector employer -

the job based in East Anglia is for the niest shift. If the hoursant

punishing enough, consider the pay, instead of wages, you keep your

jobseeker's allowance, that's �53 .43 a week, way below the minimum

wage. Tesco say the advert is a mistake and is being rectified. The

error was to describe the job as "permanent" when it is part of a

Government work experience scheme. So the whole thing was a clerical

error by Jobcentre Plus, which operates the scheme and it's

protected a fewer yu. One of many comments told Tesco it was

exploiting the jobless. It highlights the scheme is allowing

employer to take on a workforce paid for by tax pairs. Searching a

job site, we came across many errors, offers of permanent jobs

without wages. A spokesman for the Department of Work and pences told

us it was: And the site was amended. The work experience placements

target those who need extra help in getting a job. They run for up to

eight weeks and unlike the work programme are voluntary. Though

anyone not completeing the scheme risks losing benefits. In actual

fact all you get for doing the jobs is jobseeker's allowance, and then

you're lucky a interview, but no guarantee. That's a company that

made �3.8 billion profit last year. It is not right that fer they're

forced to do this work for no pay. It is no surprise it is called a

form of modern slavery. Certainly not by the Prime Minister, who

heaped praise on the scheme on a trip to Asda's last month. On the

work experience places, we're doing 250,000 of them, we're finding

within two months, half of them are coming off benefit. There's a

relatively inexpensive scheme. big companies are distanceing

themselves. Water stons told usz, us it does not encourage work for

no pay and is not involved in this scheme. When it discovered one of

the stores was involved, it ordered it to stop. Sainsbury's which

operates its own initiative called You Can, says last year over 4,300

colleagues were retained following a placement. The Government says it

is part of the public good. But what about those taking part? The

Government say they're getting the experience they need to help them

find jobs, and with young people in particular, so badly affected by

rising unemployment, the coalition is under pressure to show its range

of work programmes, are themselves, working. The DWP is considering how

to extend the scheme to some of they say on disability benefits, if

they're judged able to work. Added sorrow cats say there are wider

benefits to the programme. There is a slight programme large firms such

as Tesco may sues this as a way of getting short-term labour, at the

taxpayers expense. But that's gravely overstated, that any such

problem that does exist, will get weighed by the benefits the

jobseekers get from the programme. It sorts out the problems that dend

to exist, where you get a black market with people claiming

benefits while at the same time working informally in the black

economy. Tesco claims 300 young people have gone on to get

permanent employment with us, and the scheme is not a replacement or

substitute for your permanent staff. The great rate of expansion by the

big supermarkets, means they're creating tens of thousands of new

jobs. But the accusation that their immense profits are in part built

by taxpayer workers is difficult for the political cheerleaders. Is

this scheme right? Can it help? Will Straw and Neil O'Brien of

Policy Exchange are with me. The question is why should taxpayers

money, your money and my money go to Tesco's so it can have shelves

done overnight? The New Deal, that means people out of work for a long

time, are encourageed to get work experience. If you're on benefit,

you can get trapped you can't get a job because you don't have

experience. If you let people live on benefits for a long time, it

gets harder for them to get into work. All parties have enkourplged

them to do the projects. This is, this job, for instance the

overnight shift at a Tesco in Suffolk, and we found many jobs

like that, advertised on the website, that's not work experience

in experience, that is a job that needs to be done, it is not a

skilled job? Clearly in this case, a few people, hundreds of people

have got jobs at the end of the scheme. We do need to be careful,

what the project are for. Is it for a short-term experience, or

something that aims to defer people staying on benefits. If it is the

later, we need to avoid doing what placements displace other jobs, so

we don't take away the jobs at people at Tesco for example. In

those schemes, it might be good creating additional like cleaning

up schemes, in Australia and US and so on. The underlying principle is

in order to get job seek he is allowance, it is good to be doing

something in return? I don't think any Government would be opposed to

get people off welfare and into work. The problem is you've people

out of work for a long time, we now know there's more than a million

youth unemployment, and long-term unemployment is going up, where

people are out of the workforce for a long time, it is harder to get

them back in the Labour force. The question is how do you do that. The

Labour Party brought in work experience, but it is not

compulsory. This compels you, while it is doing that, it takes you away

from other work and training. What Labour had at the last Labour

government was the Future Jobs Fund, this is a scheme that gave people

proper work for a minimum number of hours a week, properly paid with

time to get training, the Government scrapped that scheme,

even though it is proved to be successful. That's a difficulty,

because the new schemes are open to abuse, as you have shown in the

package and cause problems for those trying to get in the Labour

market. Is this those already in work that have a better chance of

getting the job they want? That's right, I'm absolutely saying, you

have to give the people opportunity to get into work. The Future Jobs

Fund was finding about 50% people in that scheme were getting back

into work. That may not sound a lot, but compared to people who aren't

in work, struggling to get in the Labour market. The other thing is

the Government did this they claimed to save money. It cost them

half a billion pounds a wear yaer to do it. The study, the work

provider, and David Miliband did last week, showed the costs of the

Exchequer, from higher unemployment benefits, and lost tax revenue,

went into the billions. They saved a little bit but lost a lot. How do

you feel, the suggestion this will be extend today disabled people,

those judge fit to work, what does that mean? You say disabled, these

are people fit to work. That broadly speak something a

continuation what's gone on before. When you said under last Government,

you couldn't be forced you could, that was the right thing to do. The

public think this is fair. 80% agree with the idea if you've been

on benefit for more than a year, you should be asked to do work in

exchange for the benefits. In the since sense there are millions of

people, going out to work, working hard, not necessarily for a lot of

money, and you have some people, not most people on Ben filts, but

could be moving into work and aren't at the moment. So if we

could get the benefit system to tailor people's problems. If being

the operateive word there. There is an image problem, water stons

saying it is not good for the reputation, to be involved, if it

ends up get ago rolled out to disabled people as well, there will

be less takeup for it. Who would want to be associated with it?

we need to do is have a tailored system. At the moment for example,

the DW., have thousands of people on drug users, in the first

interview, in a Jobcentre, we don't ask you for that kind of thing. We

don't identify people's problems and segment people's needs of

disabilities and the problem is at the moment, we wait for a year to

see who get a job We'll discuss if the whole industry is now under

threat and do we need to protect our newspapers or have they had

their day? And see who doesn't. The problem with that, it is cheap, but

if we leave people for a year, after a year, they're rusted and

got depressed, it is hard, they have a hole in their CV, so it

would be better to target the help and the programmes on day one of

their claim. Thank you both. Now, one year ago, something new and

unthinkable was beginning on the streets of Benghazi, 40 years of

protests, you know how the story ends, at least the story of Gaddafi

himself. How will the Libyan story end. At the end of our week of

films, Mark Urban has been back to Libya, amid report of lawlessness

and torture. Some images are disturbing. It is a time of

celebration for the fighters. The other night, different big gaids

that seized this city last August, took to the streets, in an

exuberant show of force. Who could have foreseen it one year ago?

of February, 2011 - this is the day which all people will never forget.

They take it this is the date where everybody is born on that day.

didn't believe that we have this sort of energy has been exploded at

once, in one day in the whole country. We nef thought this

revolution was going to succeed because we know the amount of power

and what Gaddafi used to do to suppress or to put down any

revolution or any movement against him you know. This is Tripoli

street in Misrata, the city was attacked by Gaddafi's forces last

spring and fighting raged along this axes for months. More than

1500 people from Misrata, died in the struggle. And as a city emerged

with a steely sense of self- reliance. They all went to the

front line together, as friends, as family supporting each other.

Anybody died, they all cried for him. And anybody wounded the all

knew him and all cried for him up to now. So, the city, as united as

knitted together as one client, and up to now, they still support each

other. They are not relying too much on the government, they don't

have much from the government. Further down the street, a war

museum welcomes pre-school children or passers by, taking pride of

place outside is a sculpture seized from Gaddafi's compound - a trophy

brought back by militias and symbol of and an old centralised system of

power smashed. All this destructive power at his disposal was obviously

enormously invigorateing for the country people still have

tremendous positive feeling about the revolution x But what you're

also hearing increasingly, is concerns being expressed by the

apparent grip or leadership at the top, and fears the gains of the

revolution might be squandered. In Libya though, with victory has come

revenge. We went to a camp on the outskirts of Tripoli to meet

members of this tribe who fled their homes. They gave this footage

of an attack when eight people were killed at the camp. The tribe blame

the militia for chasing 30,000 of them out of their homes, and

pursueing some here. Most now are too frieltened to be filmed, and

the authorities wouldn't let us in. But Attiya Mahjoub told us how his

13-year-old son had been killed. TRANSLATION: I received an an

anonymous call in the middle of the night telling my son was shot and

his body was on the beach. I was too afraid to go there at midnight

and went the next morning, but I couldn't find it. The police

informed me my son's body was at the hospital.

The accusation is war crimes, the Government say there's little they

can do to protect the refugees. They went on Monday's attack, came

here, but he said we can't do anything. We will try to save you,

we will try to bring these people away, we stayed five days, nobody

came here to save us. The militias have kept unit in Tripoli and in

common with other armed groups, they stand accused of operating as

a law on themselves. Asked about alleged attacks on the tribe,

representatives emphasised the crimes of Gaddafi's followers.

we went nobody was there, they had left, they've done a crime, we will

never slaughter them as you mentioned, we would nef do that.

And we will never do this to any other Libyans. We captureed them

and take them to the justice. charge of persecuting those

suspected of backing the old order, runs broader than one tribe. This

is one of dozens of makeshift prisons across the country, where

the revolution stands accused of locking up more than 8,000 people.

There have been allegations of torture, and detainees have no idea

when they might be tried or released. All of which is very

awkward for the foreign allies. made it clear to the Government and

to the NTC, on the occasions when this issue has arisen. It is hugely

important to us. That they do, differentiate themselves from the

previous regime. That they do, in practice, follow through on what

they have been consistent in saying publicly, that they support the

highest international standards of human rights. And that they address

those problems that arise, those incidents that arise where

allegations are made of mistreatment, torture. A sense that

scores are settled, and security somewhat tenuous, can be felt in

the country's banks. I think the security is OK now.

Because, there's some security of the bank. There's every day, three

or four people with guns, and it is OK. But, it is dangerous to get

dollars in the bank. Businesses complain of a shortage of cash to

pay staff. The situation exacerbated by 15 dina bills handed

in today. The high denomination notes was thought to be used by

Gaddafi supporters or hoarded by those fears the worse. For

businessmen, a shortage of cash is one of the biggest daily challenges.

He made a major investment, in this new electronic shop in Tripoli.

But he's delighted that old-style Gaddafi crony capitalism is gone.

For example I can, within one day, I can make all the documents to

make a new company. To run a new business. For example,

I will not get projects soon because we know the financial

problem in the country is still not stable. But at least, I can set

myself up to be ready for getting project. That sense of a Government

that is yet to charter course, is Mirrored on the wider scale. The

country has huge oil and gas revenues, so imports are flowing in.

But hundreds of old Government contracts are now on hold,

unemployment remains high, and this is a reluctance to be taken bf

June's elections produce a new gaest. Do the Libyans understand

what their Government is doing? Not terribly well, I have to be honest.

That whole progress between Government and people, is still a

work in progress. For pretty good reasons. One, the first is the

current depast has a list of priorities - government has a list

of priorities had a would daunt most of us. Communicating what it

is doing, is important for it, but not right at the top. At Misrata

Airport, south of the city, the particlelies of central Government

has led them to take matters into their own hands. Local donations

have paid for a terminal and international services have started.

The city authorities, are exercising increasing autonomy.

have, to be honest, a mixed feeling about this. But sometimes, at the

end, we feel, that things are going to be OK, at the end. We are people,

Libyan people, we know ourselves, although a lot of mistakes has been

done by NCT, and maybe they're not doing the proper job, but it is

important to give them enough time. Time is still short. I mean, they

didn't have enough time, even this transitional government, they

didn't have enough time to work. Does all this suggest that Misrata

or the eastern part of the country might be about to take flight,

breaking Libya apart? Most people here insist not. Although it

Heralds a difficult job for whoever takes over the national controls in

June fl On the outskirts of Misrata, they've gathered together the

wrecks of Gaddafi's army. By laying on all this destruction, a hand

full of NATO Government, Britain, Prince pill among them,

facilitateed the Libyan revolution. Now the same governments are

embarrassed by the revolution's human rights abuses, and bewildered

by the Byzantine manoeuvres of those who governed the country. The

revolutions outside Backers, is run by a dictatorship, now that's done,

power is distributed more fairly, but brutality and mismanagement

remain. Beyond the slogans of freedom, there's little sense here

that anyone now has a strong vision of how this nation should advance.

With me now, the journalist and historian, haste haste haste, Ramy

Aly and Rana Jawad. Haste haste haste you were well known as being

a critic of intervention in Libya, watching that film, how do you feel

today? The best way I can put that is to say a month or two ago, I

asked a senior officer, and I was critical of the Libyan intervention,

after our experiences of Iraq and Afghanistan, western powers should

be cautious about engaging in Muslim societies. I said in terms

to the officer, is it time to say sorry, we apologise, it turned out

right, he said this story is not over yet. It's a difficult one. But,

one thing that made me suspicious of the time of the Libyan

intervention was first of all the House of Commons from a hundred per

cent in favour. When House of Commons is in favour of anything,

it is always wrong. The worst vice of our trade, the media, is we're

always saying something must be done. But the question of Libya,

which others are better qualified to answer than I am, were we

supporting the cause of freedom? Or were we supporting the one faction

in a civil war? You were there throughout the conflict, reporting

an anonymously, in Tripoli. Is the revolution going wrong? It depends

on who you talk to. A lot of pundits, these days feels some

things are going wrong. A lot of Western governments who supported

the uprising are worried, but Libyans on the grouped will tell

you, whatever divisions they have at the moment, are kind of a

natural course of a post revolution Libya. So, there is some worry on

the ground, certainly. But, I think largely, Libyans are optimistic of

what lies ahead. Because in any post-revolution scenario, there are

no guarantees, but many believe there are opportunities now, there

an opportunity to establish the kind of country or democracy that

they've striveing for. The way the intervention began was different

from Iraq and Afghanistan, it was an emergency situation. These tanks

were on the way to Benghazi and Britain and France averted a

massacre? All that is true, and you can't take the parallel too far.

Libya is smaller, and theoretically more manageable. But I think our

record of getting the things wrong, record of insensitive interventions

has been so awful in the last decade we ought to be careful. That

doesn't mean we can't take sides or can't take a view about who deserve

toss come up. But in just the same way as one looks at Syria, nobody

could feel other than a desire to see Assad gone as soon as possible.

But my God, one hopes the West can use its leverageage to encourage

other Muslim society to get involved in that. Maybe I'm being

overcautious, but we got it wrong so oven, to be there again, seems

ghastly prospect. Now the opportunity to look more broadly,

we have been marking one year since the Arab Spring began, Ramy Aly,

look at Egypt disturbing reports of rise of Islam, treatment of women,

do you believe some things going wrong, and the revolutions are

derailed? I don't think the revolutions are being derailed. I

don't think they're Muslim societies as such. There's

systematic problems, in it the states, before these transitions,

and before the fall of the dictators, they're weak, inept, and

incompetent in terms of the institutional struck stur.

Therefore after the dictator is left there's a vacuum and inability

to control, and that's the demais situations where there has been a

Western intervention and in situations where there hasn't been

a Western intervention. In Egypt, we like to think, we have a long-

standing state institution or set of state institutions, and what

we've discovered over the last year, is we don't have such a strong

state. In fact, that, the most prominent part of the state is the

military establishment. They are now ruling. It is business as usual.

And so, will has actually been so institutional change in those

states, and that's the problem. That before, the fall of the

dictators, you have weak state institutions and that's the case

afterwards. But, it is a striking contrast, when you think back to a

year ago, we were all sitting reporting on the amazing events.

When you look at so many countries in the region, even the homogenous

ones, it seems people are more divided today than a year ago?

Libyans you talk to, will argue they're not divided in principle,

they want a unified country in the future, and they are all working

towards the same goal. That is some form of a democratic state, and

minus a dictator, this time around. But, I think the divisions we're

seeing today is really just a product of what a 42-year

dictatorship leaves behind. In Libya, in particular, people forget

that because the regime, systematically, did away with any

form of civil societies, and institutions, they have very little

to build on. They are literally starting from scratch. We can't go

on about how Egypt and Tunisia, are having to rebuild the institutions

but they have some form of base. What I tend to agree against my own

argument is to some degree, it was never going to be easy. At the end

of an experience such as Libya has sufd, there was never a chance, it

was going to build a society. So, I don't think one could have expected,

if you lived in a society Libya has been, revenge, brutality is bound

to happen. So that's one has to accept. My concern, which extends

to other parts of the Middle East, it is important these societies

should be seen to be doing things in their own way, not to have the

West. We've had people accusing West getting stuck in Libya because

we're interested in the oil. It seems terribly important they

shouldn't advance the argument. This is another case of western

interference. It would be a no, no, to intervene in Syria and Iraq?

is impossible to intervene in Syria, partly because Syria has powerful

friends. And in an ideal world, the question is which Muslim society,

other Muslim societies will be getting stuck in, and we would be

one removed, through a Muslim society, the problem is which

Muslim society? Why is there such a concern about Muslim societies, you

said the rise of political Islam. Islam is not a problem in of itself.

I am not a Islamist in a political sense. I don't see the problems as

being attached to some kind of income mensable religious scenario.

It is a matter of institutions and state building. It may or may not

be in the interest of particular allys to intervene. Thank you very

much all of you. Now, just a word about tomorrow's Newsnight, when

our economic reporter reports in Greece, how the country is in daing

of disintegrating under economic collapse and extremeism. People say

that if they're continuing of this, we have buy a gun. That's all from

me. Stephanie will be here tomorrow ? Weather come the weekend, at the

moment it is mild out there. Maybe a touch of frost around dawn, in

Scotland and north-east of England. Frost-free on Friday, rain

returning northwards into north west England and Wales. Some

persistent so a damp day here. Midlands, East Anglia, mid-

afternoon, a lot of cloud, breezy, but temperatures, higher than today.

So well up into double figures. The odd spot of drizzle across west

Devon and Cornwall. A nuisance there. For Wales, drab, a cloudy

and dachness pushing up across Snowdonia, through the day. For

norld, persistent rain for a time, but dribs and drabs of rain through

the rest of the afternoon. It turns west across Scotland. Miserable

here, east of the hills dry and bright, but just as mild as it was

on Thursday. Friday and Saturday across northern parts of the UK,

change in the weather, turns colder with wintry showers developing by

the weekend. Further south, takes longer for the cold weather to