Browse content similar to 09/03/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, mutiny in the air, as Liberal Democrat activists try to | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
wreck the uneasy truce over changes to the National Health Service. | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
Could a small number of those in the minority coalition party really | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
be about to kill off the Government's flagship health | :00:17. | :00:24. | |
reforms. Any hope David Cameron and the | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
Government might have of putting to bed the NHS bill, might be derailed | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
by the Liberal Democrats at their party conference. A year on from | :00:34. | :00:41. | |
the tsunami in Japan, what future does nuclear power now have. After | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
Fukushima, Governments around the world have been re-thinking their | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
nuclear programmes, as the safety and financial risks of nuclear | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
power have multiplied. We debate whether the real danger to | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
Britain's nuclear programme is not safety, but money. | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
And, more pressure on the Government's flagship welfare-to- | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
work programme, as fresh claims of fraud emerge at the troubled | :01:04. | :01:14. | |
:01:14. | :01:14. | ||
private provider, A4e. Nick Clegg has asked his party to | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
tear off the rear view mirror and look straight ahead, putting its | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
concerns about the Government's health reforms behind them. But are | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
his mutinous troops listening. There have been a series of | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
concessions for Lib Dem activists, but many still fear the NHS may end | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
up worse than it is now. They are preparing to vote against the | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
leadership again this weekend at the spring conference in Gateshead, | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
with what could be serious consequences for the future of the | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
coalition. Our political editor has been hearing from the grass roots, | :01:42. | :01:51. | |
and the party leader. Right now they are still scrabling | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
around trying to figure out exactly what they will be voting on, it | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
comes out tomorrow morning. What is interesting is the leadership and | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
Clegg's aides are saying, if you think about the debates about | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
tuition fees a year ago, they were teething pain in the whole maturity | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
analogy, this is just growing up, this is the cold reality of | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
Government. It is up to the activists to get with it. What | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
about this one is particularly interesting, is normally when we go | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
to things like spring conference, it is just political journalists or | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
Lib Dems themselves interested. With this particular one you have | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
the Prime Minister in the number of those who want regular updates. The | :02:28. | :02:38. | |
:02:38. | :02:42. | ||
guy he's depending on is Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister. | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
Nick Clegg arrives, one hand in his pocket, the trade mark pose that | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
became famous in the TV debates of nearly two years ago. He's in | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
Newcastle, where his party might vote to kill the Government's NHS | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
bill. Signs are they will be ignored, and Lib Dem democracy will | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
become a bankrupt institution. The inauspiciously named hall doesn't | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
help. Here in the queue they are still | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
stocking up on party merchandise, though they are not exactly cock-a- | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
hoop. Fast forward to Sunday evening, imagine you lot have voted | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
it down, what does the leadership have to do at that point? They have | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
to kill the bill. If Clegg doesn't reflect what you feel, how does | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
that make you feel about him? we have a problem in the party, | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
haven't we. What is conference about this spring for you? I think | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
about the way the party is building back from the problems it had a | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
year ago. It is all coming back together and bubbling, people are | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
enjoying it. You are right, it is a jolly atmosphere, but you are at 11 | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
points in the polls? That is a lot better than last year isn't it. | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
What was it last year? Probably six or seven. The Business Secretary, | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
Vince Cable, clearly thinks these people should be listened to. | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
think we have come here, have a good old debate, listen to what the | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
members say and act accordingly. You think it is possible you will | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
reflect a no vote? I'm not counting numbers. In any event the NHS is | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
not the area of Government I focus on. Clearly it concerns all of us. | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
The Lib Dems are famously the most democratic of the three parties. | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
Last spring it was at this conference that an uprising by the | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
membership put a temporary halt to the NHS bill, an uprising so | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
effective it surprised mean themselves. Now they are coming | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
back for more. One of their key rebels, Baroness Williams is | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
expected to back the leadership, enough is enough, she's expected to | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
say. I have only been here half an hour, | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
it is clear there is one question, where is Shirley? The Government | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
and Lib Dem leadership need Baroness Williams to come out and | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
defend the very unpopular bill. Right now, behind the scenes, it is | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
far from certain she's prepared to do that. Most prime ministers, | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
during Lib Dem Spring Conferences of years gone by, could afford a | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
bit of downtime, but David Cameron will be getting updates. I'm told | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
the Deputy Prime Minister has promised there will be no more | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
changes, whatever his party decides. Stories are still not certain he | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
means it. They think a vote here could yet influence the legislation. | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
Actually, even some of the leading members are downbeat about what the | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
effect of a no vote would have. David we get to Sunday lunchtime, | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
you guys have voted the bill down what do you expect Nick Clegg to | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
do? I expect him to make a speech saying, in the coalition we have | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
two parties, with different views, and the Liberal Democrats have said | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
they don't like the bill, so if it gets passed after that it is a | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
Conservative bill not a Liberal Democrat bill. That is a Council of | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
Despair, you go into the next election with a piece of policy you | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
don't support? In which case we can campaign saying we were always | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
against it, and if you don't like it, vote for us in good conscience. | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
That is a good point. We asked the Deputy Prime Minister if he's so | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
pleased by this next bill he will fight the next election on it? | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
were given clear marching instructions by our party | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
conference in Sheffield some time ago, 13 points where we needed to | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
change the bill. We changed the bill almost exactly to the letter | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
and spirit of those 13 point, that's why I think it is important, | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
as a democratic party, that when we say we want to change it that way, | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
we then succeed in changing it that way, in a progressive direction, we | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
don't then change the goal posts again. Do you want all of your | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
members to be campaigning on it in May, at the elections and the next | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
election in 2015? I don't think there is any such thing as a | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
campaign for a bill. You have to embrace it and say we are proud of | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
what we do? What we have to be proud of is an NHS that delivers | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
better healthcare. It is not at all-clear that Nick Clegg will let | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
his people brag about the bill in the next general election. In the | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
hall he barely mentioned it. This is what the Tories really fear, in | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
2015 you have an NHS playing big and bad, waiting lists up and | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
treatment down, and the Tories the only ones defending it. You get the | :06:58. | :07:05. | |
feel those Lib Dem members spending their weekend in Gateshead will see | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
fear and anger, but it is anger about being in Government, rather | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
than fear of opposition, for now they think that is a good thing. | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
Joining me from inside the conference centre is the vice chair | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
of the party's federal committee. Shiriley Williams is now apparently | :07:22. | :07:30. | |
reconciled to the bill, Mo Farah says you should take it as -- Tim | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
Faran says you should take it as inevitable. This bill will go | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
through, won't it? I hope not, I was one of the people who sponsored | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
the amendment exactly a year ago. Who said this bill in its then form | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
would be bad for the NHS. Looking inside the politics, let's think | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
about the NHS for a number of reasons. Although the bill has been | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
improved, about half of the things called for have been delivered, it | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
hasn't won over the key people, not the politicians, not even the | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
unions, I'm talking about here, but the royal colleges. They are not | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
interested in the raw politics of this, they are interested in what | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
it means for the NHS. If you can't persuade professional bodies about | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
this bill. We can express our view, and that will empower Nick Clegg to | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
say he did his best, he tried to sell it to the party, it is simply | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
not possible. And I think, Dave, we will have to stick to the coalition | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
agreement. This bill is not, unlike the tuition fee issue, part of the | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
coalition agreement. It is not part of the deficit reduction package, | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
it is an extra coming from Andrew Lansley, and it is not wanted. It | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
is not wanted by the health service, and it is not popular among Liberal | :08:41. | :08:49. | |
Democrats, and even many Conservatives. If your leader does | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
that, despite assurances, he will look weak and untrustworthy as | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
Deputy Prime Minister? It is not a question of trust. It is if you are | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
David Cameron? David Cameron may be frustrated that he can't get the | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
Government to deliver something that goes well beyond the coalition | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
agreement, but I think it is important that the Government, both | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
parties in the Government, are reminded that each party has agreed | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
the coalition agreement, and no further, unless it is by mutual | :09:18. | :09:25. | |
agreement. They have tried this bill, and it has been a failure. It | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
is bad for the health service, they haven't been able to persuade any | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
significant independent group of its virtues, I think even the | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
Conservatives know this is not just bad for the health service, but it | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
is bad for the Conservatives. want it scrapped? Why create this | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
milt kal millstone. There is no question of -- Political millstone. | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
There is no question of it being scrapped, but you thu it is bad for | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
the country, bad for the health and bad for the Conservatives and your | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
party? Yes, the motion potentially put on the order paper of this | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
conference says despite what Shiriley Williams and others have | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
done in the Lords, to get a number of changes, they are simply not | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
sufficient, and even if they were sufficient, you cannot impose this | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
sort of change on the health service without a mandate. If you | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
don't have the support of the staff and the professionals, and the | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
professionals have said this is a bad bill, I agree with them, | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
despite the changes, it is still a bad bill, I think it is political | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
foolhardyness, as well as NHS vandalism, to continue with even an | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
improved bill, which is what we have before the houses of | :10:33. | :10:41. | |
parliament at the moment. This weekend the people of Japan will | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
remember the earthquake and tsunami which devastated coastal reason | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
regions of their country exactly a year ago. All around the world | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
others are rembering too, for different reasons, the damage to | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
the Fukushima nuclear plant helped convince Germany's Government, | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
among others, that a new generation of nuclear power isn't right for | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
them. Britain paused for a moment and decided to press ahead, in co- | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
operation with France. In a moment we will hear about the scientific | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
fears over nuclear power, here we have Paul Mason with a different | :11:10. | :11:20. | |
:11:20. | :11:26. | ||
Earthquake, tsunami, generator failure, and meltdown. The nuclear | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
disaster at Fukushima, has left us with indelible image, and in Japan | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
itself, a massive psychological and political change. One year on it | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
has become clear that Fukushima may also change the course of energy | :11:42. | :11:52. | |
:11:52. | :11:52. | ||
policy around the world, including here. The cost has been huge, TEPCO, | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
the company had a runs it, posted a �5 billion loss this year. It | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
expects the Japanese Government to provide a �7 billion bailout to | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
stay afloat. The company is being sued for �42 billion in damages. | :12:07. | :12:14. | |
Meanwhile, 52 out of Japan's 54 reactors remain shut down. The cost | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
of importing energy has created a record trade deficit. As Japan's | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
economy minister last night said, the company is preparing for a zero | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
nuclear energy summer. TRANSLATION: As for how many | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
reactors will be operational this summer, we are currently he can | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
ching their safety now. The first of those -- checking their safety | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
now. The first of those will be ready at the end of March, it is | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
impossible to say if it will be zero reactors, one or two, or | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
perhaps even more. Fukushima set off a chain reaction | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
in energy policy across the world. Germany decided to quit nuclear | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
within ten years, in other countries the construction of new | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
nuclear power stations has slowed. That's now impacting on Britain's | :12:59. | :13:06. | |
decision to build a whole new wave of nuclear power stations here. | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
The UK is committed to build a whole new wave of nuclear power | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
stations. EDF, the French Government-owned company, stands | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
ready to build four reactors. But the project is reliant on how the | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
Government sets the future price of nuclear generated electricity. EDF | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
is laifg trouble building the new- style -- having trouble building | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
the new-style reactors in France. Some say Fukushima has changed the | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
economics. What it really does is it gets everybody to focus on who | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
will carry the risks involved in a new nuclear power station, and | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
basically what is now intended would transfer all of the risk from | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
essentially the French Government to the British home owners and | :13:50. | :13:58. | |
British businesses. Only something with the backing of Government | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
would be able to finance new nuclear power stations. In order | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
for the British Government to get the French Government to do it, it | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
will basic clo have to place an unacceptable -- basically have to | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
place an unacceptable burden on British home owners and users, that | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
what the reform is intended to do. At Greenpeace HQ they have had a | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
hard time holding the anti-nuclear line. Some have come to accept | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
nuclear as a stop gas to avoid more gas power on-line. | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
But Fukushima has strengthened the anti-nuclear argument. | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
North to deliver new nuclear the taxpayer has to subsidise nuclear | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
to massive extent. The current liability if there were an accident | :14:47. | :14:55. | |
like Fukushima is �1 billion. Consider EDF has a turnover of �63 | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
euros after year, and compensating with one billion could walk away | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
and the taxpayer picks up the bill in the event of an accident like | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
that. That is a massive bulk to allow the nuclear stations to | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
operate, if commercial people were ensuring it, it couldn't happen. | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
John Hutton, as Business Secretary, set the new nuclear deal in motion. | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
Now, as Lord Hutton, he's the chairman of the nuclear industry | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
association. I'm absolutely confident that in the right | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
conditions, with the right reforms to our electricity market, that are | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
being discussed at the moment, we can make a very dig and cost | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
effective contribution to decarbonising the electricity | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
generating system here in the UK. We really have to do this. At the | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
end of the day, if it is not going to be nuclear, what will it be? It | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
will be fossil fuels and carbon being burnt. We have a real problem | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
down that path. I believe nuclear has to be part of the mix. In the | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
UK at the moment there is still very strong support for nuke clear | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
playing that role. Here is the basic problem n the | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
countries heavily committed to nuclear, France, China or Russia, | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
the engeep industry tends to be state-owned or state-directed. | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
Britain's new nuclear programme is relying on the market. As we are | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
finding the market is global and unpregibgtable. While politicians | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
are committed -- unpredictable. While politicians are committed to | :16:22. | :16:30. | |
low carbon, the Fukushima effect may not be over yet. | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
How do you think the accident at Fukushima has really changed | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
nuclear? And the way nuclear is seen around the world? I think | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
those dramatic TV pictures of the explosions at Fukushima really | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
changed the whole of the risk landscape for nuclear power. Not | :16:45. | :16:51. | |
skwhrus the safety risks, but the - - just the safety risks but the | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
financial risks. The industry would say we are in a better place now | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
before Fukushima. We have had these on going stress tests on reactors, | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
new nuclear power stations are safer, inherent low. They will have | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
to pay greater attention to things like back-up power supplies, and | :17:08. | :17:17. | |
flood risks, the key lessons for Fukushima. It is a complex picture, | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
risk assessment, interestingly, we are now saying even the most | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
experiences experts, the wiser heads, saying what Fukushima showed | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
is low probability, high-risk events can happen. Where those | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
before would have been put outside the design base, power stations | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
wouldn't have been built to cope with those, now they will have to | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
be built to cope with those. That, of course, adds to the bill for | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
people like EDF who want to build the nuclear power stations. That is | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
the scientific risks, what about the political risks, no Government | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
wants the lights to go off? chief executive officer of EDF is | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
fond of saying he's an investor in waiting. He has had to be patient | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
over this. There are still political risks, I know the | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
Government is being warned about the risk, for example, of handing a | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
part of our energy mix, the control over that to the French Government. | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
EDF is a largely French Government- owned company. And at the same time | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
is saying we need to be energy independent, we need to be | :18:21. | :18:30. | |
independent of foreign Governments. I'm joined by the writer who | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
reluctantly came on side with nuclear, and Camilla Berens and | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
Malcolm Grimston. George Monbiot, isn't it a big | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
gamble for you to claim that the benefits on climate change outweigh | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
the risks of another Fukushima, that could be absolutely | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
catastrophic? Let's look how catastrophic Fukushima was. As far | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
as we know no-one has yet received a lethal dose of radiation from | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
Fukushima. The worst nuclear accident which has ever taken place, | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
Chernobyl, according to the UN scientific committee, which | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
examines an overview of the evidence, killed 28 people and will | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
probably kill some tens, or possibly hundreds more. Every week | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
the Chinese coal industry alone kills 42 people in underground | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
accidents. Every year hundreds of thousands of people die as a result | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
of coal pollution and inhalation. Fukushima, according to the | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
Japanese Government, will cost $257 billion to clean up, one accident | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
in one place. While you are right on the fatality figures, the cost | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
is mind boggling. It is nothing to the cost of climate change, climate | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
change, the real problem we face, outweighs that many times over. | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
Orders of magnitude difference. Therapy tensionly extension costs | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
for human -- existential costs for humanty. They threaten whole | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
populations and areas of the planet, in a way which nuke clear power | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
doesn't do in anything like the same scale. | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
Camilla Berens, I take it you agree broadly what with he has to say | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
about climate change, why not on nuclear? Essentially I think George | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
as hand wringing is getting tiresome. The elephant in the room | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
is do we have an alternative to nuclear, the honest answer is yes, | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
we do. The premise is we have the UK and Germany. Two countries that | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
have Governments with very similar political outlooks, but are polls | :20:38. | :20:47. | |
apart, when it comes to their outlook on energy. We have in the | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
UK...You Say alternatives what is that? The Government is telling us | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
in the UK we need to combat climate change, and we need an energy mix | :20:56. | :21:03. | |
with nuclear involved in it. Nuclear is an industry that has a | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
toxic by-product, it has never been economically viable without massive | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
subsidies. What is the alternative? Germany is not only committing to | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
phasing out nuclear power in the next ten years, but it is just | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
producing what they are calling as a blueprint for a sustainable | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
future, which pours massive investment into renewables. It | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
really focuses on a framework for energy reduction, which our | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
Government is paying lip service to but isn't actually acting on. They | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
are using a technology called combined heat and power. Those | :21:37. | :21:45. | |
things together will create a situation where They will be on | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
target with the carbon reduction commitments, and they won't have | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
the legacy of toxic waste which nobody knows what to do with, and | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
the shadow of another Fukushima hanging over our heads. The German | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
Government is one of many Governments re-thinking this. They | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
are in a very similar position to us, why are they wrong and we are | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
right? Germany has plans on the stable for 25 new coal-fired power | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
stations, most of those plants will not be using black coal, which is | :22:11. | :22:18. | |
bad enough, but using brown coal which is worse in greenhouse | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
emissions. There is no evidence to suggest about the coal-fired | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
stations, combined heat and technology, they are subsidising it | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
and putting in tax breaks to drive the technology that is a lot | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
cleaner. Plants of that nature, the difficulty is just because an | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
enthusiast produces a report doesn't mean it is true. The only | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
way Germany can do these things is repealing the law of dynamics. | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
are saying fantasy wind farms and calculation, one of the problems | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
with the nuclear industry from the very start is you lived in fantasy | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
land from the start in the 1950s, telling us we have electricity too | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
cheap to metre? I don't work for the nuclear industry. You did. | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
There was one very foolish comment from the states, you are right with | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
that. The first paper in the UK, published in 1954, said nuclear | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
energy would be 30% more expensive than coal-fired electricity at the | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
time. It is possible to get carried away. The nuclear industry does not | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
have a good record of delivering plants on time or cost. That is the | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
biggest challenge. The public will be subsidising it | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
massively. George Monbiot you used to go along with the economics of | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
that argument, you may have been clear on climate change, but the | :23:40. | :23:48. | |
economics are still very, very dodgy? That is the same thing with | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
most of the alternatives we want to develop. They all take their time | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
and if they are rolled out at scale they are expensive. The problem is | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
if we shut down our nuke clear programme, and other countries | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
should down their nuclear programmes, renewables have to fill | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
two gaps, replacing fossil fuels, which everyone wants to see | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
happening, they also have to replace nuclear power. It is hard | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
enough to get enough renewables on the table, quickly enough, to | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
replace fossil fuels, in order to prevent runwayway climate change | :24:24. | :24:34. | |
:24:34. | :24:34. | ||
taking place. With half the carbon foot frint. | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
Half the carbon footprint of fossil fuels is still twice or three-times | :24:39. | :24:46. | |
as much as we, sorry, just let me finish. It is still twice or three- | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
times or more as much carbon dioxide as we should be producing | :24:50. | :24:57. | |
coming in under two degrees of Warming. Let's look at the time | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
scale, you can't build a nuclear power station overnight. Nothing | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
can be done overnight. The two EDF reactors are way over schedule and | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
budget. It will be ten years before we have anything up and running. | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
They are not a proven technology, they are not tried and tested, we | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
don't know if they will work efficiently once they are running. | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
Once you start it you can bring nuclear plant on very quickly. Just | :25:23. | :25:30. | |
for one moment if I could. In the mid-1980s we were bringing | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
on 40 plants a year, that was with a technology much more resource | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
intensive than today's stations. To take wind, we have had a string of | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
reports from places like Denmark, Scotland, Ireland and Colorado, | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
because of the inefficiency you introduce into the coal plants | :25:47. | :25:54. | |
cranking them up and down, it means the amount of carbon dioxide | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
improves that, the wind decreasing it rather than increasing it. | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
you no worries about it being French technology. We have the | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
choices between Russian gas, Saudi oil or French technology on this? | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
The last problem we had with the nuclear design, you say French | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
technology, but they are built in skhien that at the moment. | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
-- China at the moment. Not under free market conditions? At the | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
moment, with the exception of insurance for a big accident, | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
nuclear energy is the only one not subsidised. The fossil fuels are | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
massively subsidised. I will have to counter that. That is an | :26:38. | :26:44. | |
outrageous statement. It is so self-evident it is being subsidised. | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
Scottish Power threatened their subsidy would be cut from 200% to | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
195% they said they wouldn't build them. It is absurd to say we can | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
deal with climate change by technologies like combined heat and | :26:59. | :27:07. | |
power, still burning fossil fuels, still urbing us. -- still pushing | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
us beyond two degrees, which is this crucial point, two degrees. | :27:11. | :27:17. | |
Check our facts. If Germany can do it, why can't we. They will push us | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
beyond two degrees by getting out of nuke clear and into combined | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
heat and power. There have been more developments | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
tonight on the Government's controversial welfare-to-work | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
programme partner, A4e, currently under investigation. Our economics | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
editor, Paul Mason is here. What is happening? A4e is a company that | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
get by the Government to put -- gets paid by the Government to take | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
people off benefits and on to work. Two weeks ago four employees at A4e | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
were arrested on suspicion of fraud. Now the company launched an | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
internal inquiry, Mrs Harrisson stepped down as families' champion | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
and the company boss. Today the department for Work and Pensions | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
says there is a new allegation of attempted fraud at A4e. It is | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
launching an audit of all the commercial relationships with A4e, | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
saying if we find evidence of systemic fraud in the contracts, | :28:13. | :28:20. | |
with A4e, we will not hesitate to immediately terminate a commercial | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
relationship. When you read carefully what civil servants write, | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
it is always interesting, an audit of all our commercial relationships | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
with A4e is not just an investigation into A4e. It must | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
answer the question why so many DWP contracts have been given to this | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
company, accused of fraud, support addically, and with no outcome, | :28:42. | :28:48. | |
before. Tonight the company has appointed Sir Robin Young, a high- | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
profile civil servant, he is threatening a new broom to it all. | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
He has been a non-executive director of that company for five | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
years. This is bad news for the Government, simplest terms? There | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
is the problem of the serial appointment of people who then get | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
into reputational trouble by David Cameron. Tonight two McDonalds | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
branches were closed down by a small number of protesters. At the | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
other end of the welfare-to-work, the programme of getting people off | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
benefits, on the issue of people, the enforcement, the coercive | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
aspect of it. From both ends, this reputational and functionality end, | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
and the protest end, the thing is under attack. | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
Before we go, here is Kirsty with details of tonight's Review Show. | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
We will be romping through Bel Ami as Robert Pattinson sinks his teeth | :29:40. | :29:50. | |
:29:50. | :29:50. |