09/03/2012 Newsnight


09/03/2012

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Tonight, mutiny in the air, as Liberal Democrat activists try to

:00:09.:00:11.

wreck the uneasy truce over changes to the National Health Service.

:00:11.:00:15.

Could a small number of those in the minority coalition party really

:00:15.:00:17.

be about to kill off the Government's flagship health

:00:17.:00:24.

reforms. Any hope David Cameron and the

:00:24.:00:29.

Government might have of putting to bed the NHS bill, might be derailed

:00:29.:00:34.

by the Liberal Democrats at their party conference. A year on from

:00:34.:00:41.

the tsunami in Japan, what future does nuclear power now have. After

:00:41.:00:45.

Fukushima, Governments around the world have been re-thinking their

:00:45.:00:49.

nuclear programmes, as the safety and financial risks of nuclear

:00:49.:00:53.

power have multiplied. We debate whether the real danger to

:00:53.:00:55.

Britain's nuclear programme is not safety, but money.

:00:55.:00:59.

And, more pressure on the Government's flagship welfare-to-

:00:59.:01:04.

work programme, as fresh claims of fraud emerge at the troubled

:01:04.:01:14.
:01:14.:01:14.

private provider, A4e. Nick Clegg has asked his party to

:01:14.:01:18.

tear off the rear view mirror and look straight ahead, putting its

:01:18.:01:22.

concerns about the Government's health reforms behind them. But are

:01:22.:01:26.

his mutinous troops listening. There have been a series of

:01:26.:01:30.

concessions for Lib Dem activists, but many still fear the NHS may end

:01:30.:01:33.

up worse than it is now. They are preparing to vote against the

:01:33.:01:36.

leadership again this weekend at the spring conference in Gateshead,

:01:36.:01:39.

with what could be serious consequences for the future of the

:01:39.:01:42.

coalition. Our political editor has been hearing from the grass roots,

:01:42.:01:51.

and the party leader. Right now they are still scrabling

:01:51.:01:54.

around trying to figure out exactly what they will be voting on, it

:01:54.:01:58.

comes out tomorrow morning. What is interesting is the leadership and

:01:58.:02:02.

Clegg's aides are saying, if you think about the debates about

:02:02.:02:06.

tuition fees a year ago, they were teething pain in the whole maturity

:02:06.:02:09.

analogy, this is just growing up, this is the cold reality of

:02:09.:02:14.

Government. It is up to the activists to get with it. What

:02:14.:02:17.

about this one is particularly interesting, is normally when we go

:02:17.:02:22.

to things like spring conference, it is just political journalists or

:02:22.:02:24.

Lib Dems themselves interested. With this particular one you have

:02:24.:02:28.

the Prime Minister in the number of those who want regular updates. The

:02:28.:02:38.
:02:38.:02:42.

guy he's depending on is Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister.

:02:42.:02:46.

Nick Clegg arrives, one hand in his pocket, the trade mark pose that

:02:46.:02:50.

became famous in the TV debates of nearly two years ago. He's in

:02:50.:02:53.

Newcastle, where his party might vote to kill the Government's NHS

:02:53.:02:58.

bill. Signs are they will be ignored, and Lib Dem democracy will

:02:58.:03:03.

become a bankrupt institution. The inauspiciously named hall doesn't

:03:03.:03:06.

help. Here in the queue they are still

:03:06.:03:10.

stocking up on party merchandise, though they are not exactly cock-a-

:03:10.:03:13.

hoop. Fast forward to Sunday evening, imagine you lot have voted

:03:13.:03:17.

it down, what does the leadership have to do at that point? They have

:03:17.:03:22.

to kill the bill. If Clegg doesn't reflect what you feel, how does

:03:22.:03:26.

that make you feel about him? we have a problem in the party,

:03:26.:03:31.

haven't we. What is conference about this spring for you? I think

:03:31.:03:35.

about the way the party is building back from the problems it had a

:03:35.:03:39.

year ago. It is all coming back together and bubbling, people are

:03:39.:03:43.

enjoying it. You are right, it is a jolly atmosphere, but you are at 11

:03:43.:03:47.

points in the polls? That is a lot better than last year isn't it.

:03:47.:03:51.

What was it last year? Probably six or seven. The Business Secretary,

:03:51.:03:54.

Vince Cable, clearly thinks these people should be listened to.

:03:54.:03:58.

think we have come here, have a good old debate, listen to what the

:03:58.:04:02.

members say and act accordingly. You think it is possible you will

:04:02.:04:06.

reflect a no vote? I'm not counting numbers. In any event the NHS is

:04:06.:04:10.

not the area of Government I focus on. Clearly it concerns all of us.

:04:10.:04:15.

The Lib Dems are famously the most democratic of the three parties.

:04:15.:04:18.

Last spring it was at this conference that an uprising by the

:04:18.:04:23.

membership put a temporary halt to the NHS bill, an uprising so

:04:23.:04:25.

effective it surprised mean themselves. Now they are coming

:04:25.:04:29.

back for more. One of their key rebels, Baroness Williams is

:04:29.:04:32.

expected to back the leadership, enough is enough, she's expected to

:04:32.:04:35.

say. I have only been here half an hour,

:04:36.:04:39.

it is clear there is one question, where is Shirley? The Government

:04:39.:04:42.

and Lib Dem leadership need Baroness Williams to come out and

:04:42.:04:45.

defend the very unpopular bill. Right now, behind the scenes, it is

:04:45.:04:50.

far from certain she's prepared to do that. Most prime ministers,

:04:50.:04:53.

during Lib Dem Spring Conferences of years gone by, could afford a

:04:53.:04:58.

bit of downtime, but David Cameron will be getting updates. I'm told

:04:58.:05:01.

the Deputy Prime Minister has promised there will be no more

:05:01.:05:04.

changes, whatever his party decides. Stories are still not certain he

:05:04.:05:09.

means it. They think a vote here could yet influence the legislation.

:05:09.:05:13.

Actually, even some of the leading members are downbeat about what the

:05:13.:05:17.

effect of a no vote would have. David we get to Sunday lunchtime,

:05:17.:05:21.

you guys have voted the bill down what do you expect Nick Clegg to

:05:21.:05:25.

do? I expect him to make a speech saying, in the coalition we have

:05:25.:05:29.

two parties, with different views, and the Liberal Democrats have said

:05:29.:05:33.

they don't like the bill, so if it gets passed after that it is a

:05:33.:05:36.

Conservative bill not a Liberal Democrat bill. That is a Council of

:05:36.:05:40.

Despair, you go into the next election with a piece of policy you

:05:40.:05:44.

don't support? In which case we can campaign saying we were always

:05:44.:05:48.

against it, and if you don't like it, vote for us in good conscience.

:05:48.:05:52.

That is a good point. We asked the Deputy Prime Minister if he's so

:05:52.:05:56.

pleased by this next bill he will fight the next election on it?

:05:56.:05:58.

were given clear marching instructions by our party

:05:58.:06:01.

conference in Sheffield some time ago, 13 points where we needed to

:06:01.:06:05.

change the bill. We changed the bill almost exactly to the letter

:06:05.:06:08.

and spirit of those 13 point, that's why I think it is important,

:06:08.:06:12.

as a democratic party, that when we say we want to change it that way,

:06:12.:06:16.

we then succeed in changing it that way, in a progressive direction, we

:06:16.:06:20.

don't then change the goal posts again. Do you want all of your

:06:20.:06:23.

members to be campaigning on it in May, at the elections and the next

:06:24.:06:28.

election in 2015? I don't think there is any such thing as a

:06:28.:06:31.

campaign for a bill. You have to embrace it and say we are proud of

:06:31.:06:36.

what we do? What we have to be proud of is an NHS that delivers

:06:36.:06:40.

better healthcare. It is not at all-clear that Nick Clegg will let

:06:40.:06:44.

his people brag about the bill in the next general election. In the

:06:44.:06:48.

hall he barely mentioned it. This is what the Tories really fear, in

:06:48.:06:53.

2015 you have an NHS playing big and bad, waiting lists up and

:06:53.:06:58.

treatment down, and the Tories the only ones defending it. You get the

:06:58.:07:05.

feel those Lib Dem members spending their weekend in Gateshead will see

:07:05.:07:10.

fear and anger, but it is anger about being in Government, rather

:07:10.:07:14.

than fear of opposition, for now they think that is a good thing.

:07:14.:07:17.

Joining me from inside the conference centre is the vice chair

:07:17.:07:22.

of the party's federal committee. Shiriley Williams is now apparently

:07:22.:07:30.

reconciled to the bill, Mo Farah says you should take it as -- Tim

:07:30.:07:35.

Faran says you should take it as inevitable. This bill will go

:07:35.:07:40.

through, won't it? I hope not, I was one of the people who sponsored

:07:40.:07:43.

the amendment exactly a year ago. Who said this bill in its then form

:07:44.:07:48.

would be bad for the NHS. Looking inside the politics, let's think

:07:48.:07:52.

about the NHS for a number of reasons. Although the bill has been

:07:52.:07:55.

improved, about half of the things called for have been delivered, it

:07:55.:08:00.

hasn't won over the key people, not the politicians, not even the

:08:00.:08:04.

unions, I'm talking about here, but the royal colleges. They are not

:08:04.:08:07.

interested in the raw politics of this, they are interested in what

:08:07.:08:13.

it means for the NHS. If you can't persuade professional bodies about

:08:13.:08:17.

this bill. We can express our view, and that will empower Nick Clegg to

:08:17.:08:21.

say he did his best, he tried to sell it to the party, it is simply

:08:21.:08:24.

not possible. And I think, Dave, we will have to stick to the coalition

:08:25.:08:30.

agreement. This bill is not, unlike the tuition fee issue, part of the

:08:30.:08:34.

coalition agreement. It is not part of the deficit reduction package,

:08:34.:08:37.

it is an extra coming from Andrew Lansley, and it is not wanted. It

:08:37.:08:41.

is not wanted by the health service, and it is not popular among Liberal

:08:41.:08:49.

Democrats, and even many Conservatives. If your leader does

:08:49.:08:55.

that, despite assurances, he will look weak and untrustworthy as

:08:56.:09:00.

Deputy Prime Minister? It is not a question of trust. It is if you are

:09:00.:09:02.

David Cameron? David Cameron may be frustrated that he can't get the

:09:03.:09:06.

Government to deliver something that goes well beyond the coalition

:09:06.:09:09.

agreement, but I think it is important that the Government, both

:09:09.:09:14.

parties in the Government, are reminded that each party has agreed

:09:14.:09:18.

the coalition agreement, and no further, unless it is by mutual

:09:18.:09:25.

agreement. They have tried this bill, and it has been a failure. It

:09:25.:09:29.

is bad for the health service, they haven't been able to persuade any

:09:29.:09:32.

significant independent group of its virtues, I think even the

:09:32.:09:36.

Conservatives know this is not just bad for the health service, but it

:09:36.:09:41.

is bad for the Conservatives. want it scrapped? Why create this

:09:41.:09:46.

milt kal millstone. There is no question of -- Political millstone.

:09:46.:09:51.

There is no question of it being scrapped, but you thu it is bad for

:09:51.:09:55.

the country, bad for the health and bad for the Conservatives and your

:09:55.:09:59.

party? Yes, the motion potentially put on the order paper of this

:09:59.:10:01.

conference says despite what Shiriley Williams and others have

:10:01.:10:05.

done in the Lords, to get a number of changes, they are simply not

:10:05.:10:09.

sufficient, and even if they were sufficient, you cannot impose this

:10:09.:10:12.

sort of change on the health service without a mandate. If you

:10:12.:10:16.

don't have the support of the staff and the professionals, and the

:10:16.:10:20.

professionals have said this is a bad bill, I agree with them,

:10:20.:10:26.

despite the changes, it is still a bad bill, I think it is political

:10:26.:10:31.

foolhardyness, as well as NHS vandalism, to continue with even an

:10:31.:10:33.

improved bill, which is what we have before the houses of

:10:33.:10:41.

parliament at the moment. This weekend the people of Japan will

:10:41.:10:45.

remember the earthquake and tsunami which devastated coastal reason

:10:45.:10:49.

regions of their country exactly a year ago. All around the world

:10:49.:10:54.

others are rembering too, for different reasons, the damage to

:10:54.:10:56.

the Fukushima nuclear plant helped convince Germany's Government,

:10:56.:11:00.

among others, that a new generation of nuclear power isn't right for

:11:00.:11:03.

them. Britain paused for a moment and decided to press ahead, in co-

:11:03.:11:07.

operation with France. In a moment we will hear about the scientific

:11:07.:11:10.

fears over nuclear power, here we have Paul Mason with a different

:11:10.:11:20.
:11:20.:11:26.

Earthquake, tsunami, generator failure, and meltdown. The nuclear

:11:26.:11:31.

disaster at Fukushima, has left us with indelible image, and in Japan

:11:31.:11:37.

itself, a massive psychological and political change. One year on it

:11:37.:11:42.

has become clear that Fukushima may also change the course of energy

:11:42.:11:52.
:11:52.:11:52.

policy around the world, including here. The cost has been huge, TEPCO,

:11:52.:11:57.

the company had a runs it, posted a �5 billion loss this year. It

:11:57.:12:01.

expects the Japanese Government to provide a �7 billion bailout to

:12:01.:12:07.

stay afloat. The company is being sued for �42 billion in damages.

:12:07.:12:14.

Meanwhile, 52 out of Japan's 54 reactors remain shut down. The cost

:12:14.:12:19.

of importing energy has created a record trade deficit. As Japan's

:12:19.:12:23.

economy minister last night said, the company is preparing for a zero

:12:23.:12:27.

nuclear energy summer. TRANSLATION: As for how many

:12:27.:12:30.

reactors will be operational this summer, we are currently he can

:12:30.:12:34.

ching their safety now. The first of those -- checking their safety

:12:34.:12:38.

now. The first of those will be ready at the end of March, it is

:12:38.:12:42.

impossible to say if it will be zero reactors, one or two, or

:12:42.:12:47.

perhaps even more. Fukushima set off a chain reaction

:12:47.:12:51.

in energy policy across the world. Germany decided to quit nuclear

:12:51.:12:55.

within ten years, in other countries the construction of new

:12:55.:12:59.

nuclear power stations has slowed. That's now impacting on Britain's

:12:59.:13:06.

decision to build a whole new wave of nuclear power stations here.

:13:06.:13:10.

The UK is committed to build a whole new wave of nuclear power

:13:10.:13:14.

stations. EDF, the French Government-owned company, stands

:13:14.:13:18.

ready to build four reactors. But the project is reliant on how the

:13:18.:13:23.

Government sets the future price of nuclear generated electricity. EDF

:13:23.:13:28.

is laifg trouble building the new- style -- having trouble building

:13:28.:13:34.

the new-style reactors in France. Some say Fukushima has changed the

:13:34.:13:38.

economics. What it really does is it gets everybody to focus on who

:13:38.:13:43.

will carry the risks involved in a new nuclear power station, and

:13:43.:13:48.

basically what is now intended would transfer all of the risk from

:13:48.:13:50.

essentially the French Government to the British home owners and

:13:50.:13:58.

British businesses. Only something with the backing of Government

:13:58.:14:00.

would be able to finance new nuclear power stations. In order

:14:00.:14:04.

for the British Government to get the French Government to do it, it

:14:04.:14:09.

will basic clo have to place an unacceptable -- basically have to

:14:09.:14:14.

place an unacceptable burden on British home owners and users, that

:14:14.:14:19.

what the reform is intended to do. At Greenpeace HQ they have had a

:14:19.:14:24.

hard time holding the anti-nuclear line. Some have come to accept

:14:24.:14:30.

nuclear as a stop gas to avoid more gas power on-line.

:14:30.:14:38.

But Fukushima has strengthened the anti-nuclear argument.

:14:38.:14:42.

North to deliver new nuclear the taxpayer has to subsidise nuclear

:14:42.:14:47.

to massive extent. The current liability if there were an accident

:14:47.:14:55.

like Fukushima is �1 billion. Consider EDF has a turnover of �63

:14:55.:14:59.

euros after year, and compensating with one billion could walk away

:14:59.:15:03.

and the taxpayer picks up the bill in the event of an accident like

:15:03.:15:08.

that. That is a massive bulk to allow the nuclear stations to

:15:09.:15:13.

operate, if commercial people were ensuring it, it couldn't happen.

:15:13.:15:16.

John Hutton, as Business Secretary, set the new nuclear deal in motion.

:15:16.:15:21.

Now, as Lord Hutton, he's the chairman of the nuclear industry

:15:21.:15:23.

association. I'm absolutely confident that in the right

:15:23.:15:27.

conditions, with the right reforms to our electricity market, that are

:15:27.:15:30.

being discussed at the moment, we can make a very dig and cost

:15:30.:15:33.

effective contribution to decarbonising the electricity

:15:33.:15:37.

generating system here in the UK. We really have to do this. At the

:15:37.:15:41.

end of the day, if it is not going to be nuclear, what will it be? It

:15:41.:15:45.

will be fossil fuels and carbon being burnt. We have a real problem

:15:45.:15:48.

down that path. I believe nuclear has to be part of the mix. In the

:15:48.:15:51.

UK at the moment there is still very strong support for nuke clear

:15:51.:15:57.

playing that role. Here is the basic problem n the

:15:57.:16:02.

countries heavily committed to nuclear, France, China or Russia,

:16:02.:16:06.

the engeep industry tends to be state-owned or state-directed.

:16:06.:16:10.

Britain's new nuclear programme is relying on the market. As we are

:16:10.:16:16.

finding the market is global and unpregibgtable. While politicians

:16:16.:16:22.

are committed -- unpredictable. While politicians are committed to

:16:22.:16:30.

low carbon, the Fukushima effect may not be over yet.

:16:30.:16:34.

How do you think the accident at Fukushima has really changed

:16:34.:16:39.

nuclear? And the way nuclear is seen around the world? I think

:16:39.:16:42.

those dramatic TV pictures of the explosions at Fukushima really

:16:42.:16:45.

changed the whole of the risk landscape for nuclear power. Not

:16:45.:16:51.

skwhrus the safety risks, but the - - just the safety risks but the

:16:51.:16:54.

financial risks. The industry would say we are in a better place now

:16:54.:17:00.

before Fukushima. We have had these on going stress tests on reactors,

:17:00.:17:04.

new nuclear power stations are safer, inherent low. They will have

:17:04.:17:08.

to pay greater attention to things like back-up power supplies, and

:17:08.:17:17.

flood risks, the key lessons for Fukushima. It is a complex picture,

:17:17.:17:21.

risk assessment, interestingly, we are now saying even the most

:17:22.:17:26.

experiences experts, the wiser heads, saying what Fukushima showed

:17:26.:17:30.

is low probability, high-risk events can happen. Where those

:17:30.:17:35.

before would have been put outside the design base, power stations

:17:35.:17:38.

wouldn't have been built to cope with those, now they will have to

:17:38.:17:43.

be built to cope with those. That, of course, adds to the bill for

:17:43.:17:47.

people like EDF who want to build the nuclear power stations. That is

:17:47.:17:50.

the scientific risks, what about the political risks, no Government

:17:50.:17:56.

wants the lights to go off? chief executive officer of EDF is

:17:56.:18:01.

fond of saying he's an investor in waiting. He has had to be patient

:18:01.:18:03.

over this. There are still political risks, I know the

:18:04.:18:07.

Government is being warned about the risk, for example, of handing a

:18:08.:18:12.

part of our energy mix, the control over that to the French Government.

:18:12.:18:17.

EDF is a largely French Government- owned company. And at the same time

:18:17.:18:21.

is saying we need to be energy independent, we need to be

:18:21.:18:30.

independent of foreign Governments. I'm joined by the writer who

:18:30.:18:34.

reluctantly came on side with nuclear, and Camilla Berens and

:18:34.:18:40.

Malcolm Grimston. George Monbiot, isn't it a big

:18:40.:18:45.

gamble for you to claim that the benefits on climate change outweigh

:18:45.:18:49.

the risks of another Fukushima, that could be absolutely

:18:49.:18:52.

catastrophic? Let's look how catastrophic Fukushima was. As far

:18:52.:18:58.

as we know no-one has yet received a lethal dose of radiation from

:18:58.:19:01.

Fukushima. The worst nuclear accident which has ever taken place,

:19:01.:19:07.

Chernobyl, according to the UN scientific committee, which

:19:07.:19:11.

examines an overview of the evidence, killed 28 people and will

:19:11.:19:16.

probably kill some tens, or possibly hundreds more. Every week

:19:17.:19:20.

the Chinese coal industry alone kills 42 people in underground

:19:20.:19:24.

accidents. Every year hundreds of thousands of people die as a result

:19:25.:19:29.

of coal pollution and inhalation. Fukushima, according to the

:19:29.:19:35.

Japanese Government, will cost $257 billion to clean up, one accident

:19:35.:19:41.

in one place. While you are right on the fatality figures, the cost

:19:41.:19:47.

is mind boggling. It is nothing to the cost of climate change, climate

:19:47.:19:52.

change, the real problem we face, outweighs that many times over.

:19:52.:19:57.

Orders of magnitude difference. Therapy tensionly extension costs

:19:57.:20:02.

for human -- existential costs for humanty. They threaten whole

:20:02.:20:06.

populations and areas of the planet, in a way which nuke clear power

:20:06.:20:09.

doesn't do in anything like the same scale.

:20:10.:20:15.

Camilla Berens, I take it you agree broadly what with he has to say

:20:15.:20:21.

about climate change, why not on nuclear? Essentially I think George

:20:21.:20:25.

as hand wringing is getting tiresome. The elephant in the room

:20:25.:20:29.

is do we have an alternative to nuclear, the honest answer is yes,

:20:29.:20:34.

we do. The premise is we have the UK and Germany. Two countries that

:20:34.:20:38.

have Governments with very similar political outlooks, but are polls

:20:38.:20:47.

apart, when it comes to their outlook on energy. We have in the

:20:47.:20:50.

UK...You Say alternatives what is that? The Government is telling us

:20:50.:20:56.

in the UK we need to combat climate change, and we need an energy mix

:20:56.:21:03.

with nuclear involved in it. Nuclear is an industry that has a

:21:04.:21:09.

toxic by-product, it has never been economically viable without massive

:21:09.:21:12.

subsidies. What is the alternative? Germany is not only committing to

:21:12.:21:16.

phasing out nuclear power in the next ten years, but it is just

:21:16.:21:21.

producing what they are calling as a blueprint for a sustainable

:21:21.:21:25.

future, which pours massive investment into renewables. It

:21:25.:21:28.

really focuses on a framework for energy reduction, which our

:21:28.:21:33.

Government is paying lip service to but isn't actually acting on. They

:21:33.:21:37.

are using a technology called combined heat and power. Those

:21:37.:21:45.

things together will create a situation where They will be on

:21:45.:21:48.

target with the carbon reduction commitments, and they won't have

:21:49.:21:52.

the legacy of toxic waste which nobody knows what to do with, and

:21:52.:21:55.

the shadow of another Fukushima hanging over our heads. The German

:21:55.:21:58.

Government is one of many Governments re-thinking this. They

:21:58.:22:02.

are in a very similar position to us, why are they wrong and we are

:22:02.:22:05.

right? Germany has plans on the stable for 25 new coal-fired power

:22:06.:22:11.

stations, most of those plants will not be using black coal, which is

:22:11.:22:18.

bad enough, but using brown coal which is worse in greenhouse

:22:18.:22:23.

emissions. There is no evidence to suggest about the coal-fired

:22:23.:22:26.

stations, combined heat and technology, they are subsidising it

:22:26.:22:32.

and putting in tax breaks to drive the technology that is a lot

:22:32.:22:38.

cleaner. Plants of that nature, the difficulty is just because an

:22:38.:22:42.

enthusiast produces a report doesn't mean it is true. The only

:22:42.:22:48.

way Germany can do these things is repealing the law of dynamics.

:22:48.:22:52.

are saying fantasy wind farms and calculation, one of the problems

:22:52.:22:56.

with the nuclear industry from the very start is you lived in fantasy

:22:56.:23:01.

land from the start in the 1950s, telling us we have electricity too

:23:01.:23:06.

cheap to metre? I don't work for the nuclear industry. You did.

:23:06.:23:09.

There was one very foolish comment from the states, you are right with

:23:10.:23:14.

that. The first paper in the UK, published in 1954, said nuclear

:23:14.:23:19.

energy would be 30% more expensive than coal-fired electricity at the

:23:19.:23:23.

time. It is possible to get carried away. The nuclear industry does not

:23:23.:23:28.

have a good record of delivering plants on time or cost. That is the

:23:28.:23:33.

biggest challenge. The public will be subsidising it

:23:33.:23:36.

massively. George Monbiot you used to go along with the economics of

:23:36.:23:40.

that argument, you may have been clear on climate change, but the

:23:40.:23:48.

economics are still very, very dodgy? That is the same thing with

:23:48.:23:53.

most of the alternatives we want to develop. They all take their time

:23:53.:23:57.

and if they are rolled out at scale they are expensive. The problem is

:23:57.:24:01.

if we shut down our nuke clear programme, and other countries

:24:01.:24:07.

should down their nuclear programmes, renewables have to fill

:24:07.:24:10.

two gaps, replacing fossil fuels, which everyone wants to see

:24:10.:24:14.

happening, they also have to replace nuclear power. It is hard

:24:14.:24:18.

enough to get enough renewables on the table, quickly enough, to

:24:18.:24:24.

replace fossil fuels, in order to prevent runwayway climate change

:24:24.:24:34.
:24:34.:24:34.

taking place. With half the carbon foot frint.

:24:34.:24:39.

Half the carbon footprint of fossil fuels is still twice or three-times

:24:39.:24:46.

as much as we, sorry, just let me finish. It is still twice or three-

:24:46.:24:50.

times or more as much carbon dioxide as we should be producing

:24:50.:24:57.

coming in under two degrees of Warming. Let's look at the time

:24:57.:25:02.

scale, you can't build a nuclear power station overnight. Nothing

:25:02.:25:07.

can be done overnight. The two EDF reactors are way over schedule and

:25:07.:25:11.

budget. It will be ten years before we have anything up and running.

:25:11.:25:15.

They are not a proven technology, they are not tried and tested, we

:25:15.:25:19.

don't know if they will work efficiently once they are running.

:25:19.:25:23.

Once you start it you can bring nuclear plant on very quickly. Just

:25:23.:25:30.

for one moment if I could. In the mid-1980s we were bringing

:25:30.:25:34.

on 40 plants a year, that was with a technology much more resource

:25:34.:25:38.

intensive than today's stations. To take wind, we have had a string of

:25:38.:25:42.

reports from places like Denmark, Scotland, Ireland and Colorado,

:25:42.:25:46.

because of the inefficiency you introduce into the coal plants

:25:47.:25:54.

cranking them up and down, it means the amount of carbon dioxide

:25:54.:25:57.

improves that, the wind decreasing it rather than increasing it.

:25:57.:26:02.

you no worries about it being French technology. We have the

:26:02.:26:08.

choices between Russian gas, Saudi oil or French technology on this?

:26:09.:26:14.

The last problem we had with the nuclear design, you say French

:26:14.:26:20.

technology, but they are built in skhien that at the moment.

:26:20.:26:24.

-- China at the moment. Not under free market conditions? At the

:26:24.:26:28.

moment, with the exception of insurance for a big accident,

:26:28.:26:34.

nuclear energy is the only one not subsidised. The fossil fuels are

:26:34.:26:38.

massively subsidised. I will have to counter that. That is an

:26:38.:26:44.

outrageous statement. It is so self-evident it is being subsidised.

:26:44.:26:50.

Scottish Power threatened their subsidy would be cut from 200% to

:26:50.:26:56.

195% they said they wouldn't build them. It is absurd to say we can

:26:56.:26:59.

deal with climate change by technologies like combined heat and

:26:59.:27:07.

power, still burning fossil fuels, still urbing us. -- still pushing

:27:07.:27:11.

us beyond two degrees, which is this crucial point, two degrees.

:27:11.:27:17.

Check our facts. If Germany can do it, why can't we. They will push us

:27:17.:27:20.

beyond two degrees by getting out of nuke clear and into combined

:27:20.:27:23.

heat and power. There have been more developments

:27:23.:27:27.

tonight on the Government's controversial welfare-to-work

:27:27.:27:31.

programme partner, A4e, currently under investigation. Our economics

:27:31.:27:37.

editor, Paul Mason is here. What is happening? A4e is a company that

:27:37.:27:41.

get by the Government to put -- gets paid by the Government to take

:27:41.:27:47.

people off benefits and on to work. Two weeks ago four employees at A4e

:27:47.:27:51.

were arrested on suspicion of fraud. Now the company launched an

:27:51.:27:56.

internal inquiry, Mrs Harrisson stepped down as families' champion

:27:56.:28:00.

and the company boss. Today the department for Work and Pensions

:28:00.:28:05.

says there is a new allegation of attempted fraud at A4e. It is

:28:05.:28:08.

launching an audit of all the commercial relationships with A4e,

:28:08.:28:13.

saying if we find evidence of systemic fraud in the contracts,

:28:13.:28:20.

with A4e, we will not hesitate to immediately terminate a commercial

:28:20.:28:23.

relationship. When you read carefully what civil servants write,

:28:23.:28:28.

it is always interesting, an audit of all our commercial relationships

:28:28.:28:31.

with A4e is not just an investigation into A4e. It must

:28:31.:28:37.

answer the question why so many DWP contracts have been given to this

:28:37.:28:42.

company, accused of fraud, support addically, and with no outcome,

:28:42.:28:48.

before. Tonight the company has appointed Sir Robin Young, a high-

:28:48.:28:51.

profile civil servant, he is threatening a new broom to it all.

:28:51.:28:55.

He has been a non-executive director of that company for five

:28:55.:28:59.

years. This is bad news for the Government, simplest terms? There

:28:59.:29:03.

is the problem of the serial appointment of people who then get

:29:03.:29:08.

into reputational trouble by David Cameron. Tonight two McDonalds

:29:08.:29:12.

branches were closed down by a small number of protesters. At the

:29:12.:29:16.

other end of the welfare-to-work, the programme of getting people off

:29:16.:29:20.

benefits, on the issue of people, the enforcement, the coercive

:29:20.:29:25.

aspect of it. From both ends, this reputational and functionality end,

:29:25.:29:29.

and the protest end, the thing is under attack.

:29:29.:29:34.

Before we go, here is Kirsty with details of tonight's Review Show.

:29:34.:29:40.

We will be romping through Bel Ami as Robert Pattinson sinks his teeth

:29:40.:29:50.
:29:50.:29:50.

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