Browse content similar to 23/05/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's one of the biggest decisions the Government will ever have to | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
make - affecting millions of us - cutting billions in spending and at | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
the heart of their plans for the economy, but nobody yet knows what | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
they will do. Tonight we get a first glimpse of | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
Government thinking on how to cut the �200 billion welfare budget. | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
And we will examine options which could affect almost every home in | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
the country with politicians, an entrepreneur and a think-tank | :00:26. | :00:34. | |
thinker. We know the Government wants to save �10 billion from the | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
Department of Work and Pensions. We investigate some of the options | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
they are looking at. Major falls on stock markets across | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
Europe - it must be yet another last chance to save the euro. Paul | :00:44. | :00:51. | |
Mason is in Brussels. In Brussels, it has been a night of dinner, talk | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
and precious little action and time is running out. | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
More on the Newsnight investigation into how some civil servants avoid | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
income tax. And what really went on behind the | :01:02. | :01:12. | |
:01:12. | :01:21. | ||
scenes as Facebook shares were sold Good evening. With the possible | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
exception of Buckingham Palace the residents of just about every house | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
in the country will be affected by changes to Britain's Welfare Bill. | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
The Chancellor, George Osborne, said in his Budget this year that | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
further cuts of �10 billion or so might be necessary, while a former | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
Downing Street adviser suggested saving �25 billion from the �200 | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
billion total. Tonight we are going to get a look at what the | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
Government is considering and we'll debate whether such cuts are really | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
necessary whichever party is in power. We begin with David Grossman | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
who has been figuring out where your money goes and when the cuts | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
which have already been announced will begin to bite. | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
Let's start with that big fat figure - �200 billion - the amount | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
we spend on welfare. Half of that goes to pensioners, half to people | :01:59. | :02:06. | |
of working age. If we look at the graph, you can see it's gone up- | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
and-up until the red line. It's gone up by 55% in real terms since | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
1997. A big part of that growth was the introduction of tax credits. At | :02:17. | :02:26. | |
the moment, the total welfare spend is 13% of GDP, or out of every �8 | :02:26. | :02:36. | |
generated in the UK, more than �1 is spent on welfare. It's coming | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
down slightly to 11%. The first thing to say about that is it's a | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
Government projection of savings going forward and we know from past | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
experience they don't always materialise. The Government says it | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
has introduced some big changes that will have effect. The big one, | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
or one of the big ones that we have heard about, is the benefits cap. | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
Now that will mean that in the future someone in a family or a | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
couple will only be able to earn �500 a week in benefits. For a | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
single person, �350 a week. It is part of the universal credit. It is | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
designed to cut the complexity and always, they say, always make work | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
pay more than being on welfare. Another big change - getting rid of | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
child benefit for those on higher incomes. Earn more than �60,000 a | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
year, you won't get any child benefit. Another big change - | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
replacement of the Disability Living Allowance with the Personal | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
Independence Payment. The Government says that should cut | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
500,000 people from the claimant count. Talk to ministers and they | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
will tell you as well as saving money, the guiding philosophy | :03:47. | :03:55. | |
behind the reforms is helping people stop being on benefits. At | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
the moment, more than one in four working-age adults do not work. | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
Around 2.6 million people have spent at least half of the last ten | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
years on some form of out of work benefits, so the cost is human and | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
financial. The Government says it has to save more money than already | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
has been outlined. In his Budget, the Chancellor said that by 2016, | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
we will have to cut �10 billion from the welfare budget. So how | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
might he be thinking of doing it? Well, one option, of course, is | :04:32. | :04:41. | |
Winter Fuel Payments. �2.1 billion a year goes to pensioners. It goes | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
to millionaires as well as those in need. Any meaningful change to get | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
that kind of money they are looking for will have to take into account | :04:50. | :04:57. | |
tax credits and housing benefit. All of that is politically | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
extremely difficult. It is not for nothing that in American politics | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
that welfare reform is known as a third rail issue. Touch it and you | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
die! Well, those are the numbers, but | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
what are the options? And how politically toxic is it for the | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
Government - any Government - to consider cutting the money from | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
some of the poorest among us? Our political editor, Allegra Stratton, | :05:18. | :05:27. | |
has been doing some blue-sky thinking. | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
Asking about someone's welfare was once just looking through a window | :05:33. | :05:40. | |
into someone's life - their health, happiness and good or bad fortune. | :05:40. | :05:48. | |
It came to me how the state looks after us in hard times. Now the | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
word is less clear and it enjoys less unthinking support. It sprawls. | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
Left unchecked by 2016, welfare will become a third of all | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
Government spending peryear so they feel they must cut -- per year so | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
they feel they must cut. If in the next Spending Review we maintain | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
the same rate of reductions in departmental spending as we have | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
done in this Review, we will need to make savings of �10 billion by | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
2016. Welfare is in the dock because the | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
public say they want welfare to be in the dock. The Deputy Prime | :06:24. | :06:34. | |
:06:34. | :06:37. | ||
Minister, nick clebg, -- Nick Clegg, contemplated blocking some of this. | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
Iain Duncan Smith appeared to be unimpressed when the Chancellor | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
announced there would be a further �10 billion worth of cuts to the | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
welfare budget. There's many who think you can't go much deeper in | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
without going painfully into people's lives. There is also an | :06:52. | :07:01. | |
assessment that the public mood is finely balanced that you have | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
support for welfare reforms. Those changes that they could and might | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
make will be about values. There is a feeling in Government that there | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
are lifestyles people can't afford, that goes for them in the city as | :07:13. | :07:23. | |
well as for families. Explain to me - tell me about your situation. | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
You've got a daughter or a son? daughter. She will be three next | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
month. We live together. We live just me and her. I got that | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
accommodation not through the council, but I found it myself and | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
applied for housing benefit separately. You are on housing | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
benefit. You get help from the state for your housing. Don't you | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
think that you should have possibly lived at home until the point at | :07:49. | :07:56. | |
which you could support your own house? Well, I find that living at | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
home with my mum wouldn't be an option, space-wise. There is not | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
enough space for... How big is her flat or house? She does have a two- | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
bedroom flat. It doesn't sound like your house and your mother's house, | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
flat, is a bad police, so it is a choice you are -- bad place, so it | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
a choice you are making and it comes with a price tag attached? | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
Yes, it is a choice. At the same time, I don't think living in my | :08:25. | :08:32. | |
mum's house would have been - it wouldn't have been constructive. | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
both know people that are living with their parents, they don't have | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
a job, and they have fights, that is what happens. They don't have a | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
financial choice? I think that is the difference. I'm asking for help | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
towards, I'm not asking for a free handout. The lesson for officials | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
across Whitehall looking at the last �18 billion worth of cuts is | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
that you can do a lot with flow, but not so much with stock. What do | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
they mean? Flow is a flow on and off unemployment benefit, stock is | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
for those who it is more difficult to get work. If you left home, you | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
will have to go into the housing benefit system and it would mean | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
you would have entered the benefit system and you are more likely to | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
spend "a lifetime on benefits". Equally, what is the messaging | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
around young women and getting pregnant? If you can get pregnant | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
and the state will help you out, you are less worried about the | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
consequences of doing so. These are the kind of things that they are | :09:33. | :09:40. | |
looking at. Tory MPs point across to the US where, in 1996, Bill | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
Clinton allowed American states to impose "family caps" on children | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
born to families on welfare. More recently, though an age ago in the | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
life cycle of the coalition, a Cabinet minister reiterated this | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
could be the direction of travel. The number of children that you | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
have is a choice. What we are saying is that if people are living | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
on benefits, then they make choices but they also have to have | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
responsibility for those choices and it is not going to be the role | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
of the state to finance those choices. Changes to benefits that | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
affect families and children are probably a distraction. The next | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
really big savings will come from somewhere completely different. | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
think when it comes to benefits for people out of work, we do want to | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
reform the system. It shouldn't be driven by fiscal cost. There is | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
good reasons for reforming the housing benefit. It is not going to | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
rescue the public finances. If you want to rescue the public finances, | :10:36. | :10:44. | |
you have to look at pensions and the middle-class benefits. So a | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
debate could end up rebounding on the Tories. The Prime Minister said | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
that he ruled out any movement on Winter Fuel Payments being ended. | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
That is a tiny part of the pot. Now there is a suggestion there could | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
be movement on that in the next Tory manifesto. Other people, | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
including in his own party, think the movement has to be much sooner | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
than that. To those who say that will require an embarrassing about- | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
turn by the Prime Minister, well, Tories say look at Nick Clegg, he | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
did an embarrassing U-turn on tuition fees. Now it is time, Prime | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
Minister, for you to do yours. could reach �10 billion if you | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
focused on the middle-class welfare. Let's not underestimate how hard it | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
will be to get there. Let's start with the winter fuel allowance and | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
the free bus passes and the TV licences and get rid of those | :11:30. | :11:38. | |
benefits and then we can think about making further savings. | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
the coalition leadership wants to go for more cuts to the welfare | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
bill. As they look for options for where to go next, they are already | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
realising the first cut was the deepest. | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
Ken Livingstone is one of those who has, over the years, opposed | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
welfare cuts. Harriet Baldwin is a Tory MP who believes some radical | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
thinking is necessary. Graeme Cooke has been studying the options for | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
the think-tank, IPPR - and he worked as a special adviser to | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
Labour's Secretary of State, James Purnell, at the Department of Work | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
and Pensions - and Kavita Oberoi is a businesswoman who worries that | :12:06. | :12:14. | |
welfare helps some people become more work-shy, not more prosperous. | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
The big picture first. The case for another �10 million or �25 million, | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
sorry �10 billion or �25 billion as some have suggested. What is the | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
case to make those savings? most important thing that we have | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
to focus on is improving the incentives to go into work. As you | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
saw from the package that David presented earlier, with one in four | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
adults in workless households and a doubling of the number of workless | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
households under the previous Government, I think it is | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
incredibly important that we reform the benefits system, bring in | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
universal credit and really create incentives for people... It is to | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
save money, isn't it? The best way to save the welfare bill is to help | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
people into work. Welfare should be there, it should be a safety net. | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
It should be a strong safety net. It shouldn't be a sticky safety net. | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
Could you save �25 billion more? think the �25 billion figure is | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
going to be a myth. I really don't see that happening. �10 billion is | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
doable? I think that there are things that you could look at. The | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
package raised some of them. Although I agree in our manifesto | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
we said we shouldn't do anything with winter fuel allowances, to | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
give it to millionaires doesn't make sense. I think we should | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
perhaps reduce the level at which you get the winter fuel allowance. | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
We will come on to that in a moment. Your position is no cuts to the | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
welfare bill? I can immediately think of some cuts. You had �23 | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
billion up there on the wall, housing benefit. You could cut �10 | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
billion off that by introducing caps on rents. The Government's | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
gone about it by attacking the tenants and I don't know what it is | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
like in other parts of the country. Here in London to rent a two- | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
bedroomed flat takes 60% of the average take-home pay. Rents have | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
got out of control. You accept the principle that the welfare bill | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
itself is out of control for one reason or another? The strategy has | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
gone wrong. I became an MP in '87. I was stunned to have unemployed | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
people coming to my surgery saying, "I've lost my job, I went to the | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
DHSS and they said why don't you go on disability benefit?" They were | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
trying to massage down the unemployment figures and they | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
created a dependency culture. looked at this and you tried to | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
figure out what was politically possible. Labour in power would | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
have to look for significant welfare cuts. In that sense, there | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
is a political consensus? welfare bill is about a quarter of | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
all public spending. You can't exempt the benefits bill from | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
efforts to reduce the deficit. You have to start by looking at why the | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
benefits bill is rising. One of those reasons is that we have not | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
got growth in the economy, we have unemployment high, that is one of | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
the reasons why so many people are out of work. You also have to have | :15:06. | :15:13. | |
a strategy for how you want to move money... Could you save �25 | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
billion? Could you do it? There is an argument for looking at some of | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
the pensioner benefits that go to those on high incomes. You could | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
look at pension tax reliefs. If you restricted pension tax relief to | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
the basic rate and means-tested winter fuel allowance and free TV | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
licences, you would be at �10 billion. The more important thing | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
is to look at what do we want to prioritise in our welfare system? | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
Should we shift from benefits to services? Should we do something | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
along the lines that Ken said which is move from subsidising rents to | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
building homes? My worry is that the Government are lopping bits off | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
the system. Where do you come in on this? Do you take the moral point | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
that we heard earlier, that this is good for people because it will get | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
them to work? I mean, I empathise with people who are on benefits who | :16:02. | :16:09. | |
should be on benefits. A few years ago, I went out to Mumbai. There is | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
no welfare system and begging isn't allowed. So what does that do? That | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
changes people's behaviours and people then start thinking because | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
they need income, they need to earn money, so they start thinking... | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
You don't want Indian conditions of labour here? No. We need to drive | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
different behaviours. People should be responsible for their own | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
behaviours and drive entrepreneurship. I saw there | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
families getting together, it was Valentine's Day, they were selling | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
things. We need to drive entrepreneurship, more start-ups. | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
Right. Aren't there some people who are untouchable in this and some of | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
the people you were talking about, pensioners, you can't touch that? | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
You might be able to do it in theory. Try touching winter fuel | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
allowance and people will not vote for you? Look, pensioners account | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
for over 40% of the benefits. You can't reduce the benefits bill | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
unless you look at some of the pensioner benefits. Capping | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
benefits for the number of children you have - the benefits cap saved | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
�200 million. These are sideshows to the big issues. If you want to | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
save money in the benefits system, you have to look at what is driving | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
the rises - it is higher rent, higher unemployment, it is low | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
wages. Right. You support the idea of a cap on families, don't you? | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
should have - which I understand unusually - is a Labour Party | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
policy. We have a policy from the Labour Party on this which is to | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
have a regional benefit cap. I think that we should have a | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
regionalised cap in terms of benefits. One of the Clinton | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
reforms was that they looked at the different labour markets in | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
different parts of the country. you think if somebody chooses to | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
have six children or seven children, there comes a point where the state | :17:57. | :18:03. | |
should no longer support those extra children? If you have never | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
worked and you continue to increase the size of your family never | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
having worked, we ought to be asking the question is there a | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
better way we can help you to find a better way for you to support | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
your family? By cutting your benefits if you have more than five | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
children? Gordon Brown had an idea of putting perhaps young parents | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
either with their own parents or in a kind of foyer and helping them | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
with training and education. It was another of the Clinton reforms to | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
make the increase in welfare, when you increase the size of your | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
family dependent on training and education. I think it is obscene | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
that somebody who might be earning �1 million a year is claiming their | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
winter fuel allowance. You can either have a whole load of | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
bureaucrats checking each individual and having some sort of | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
benefit cap, or you can take that money back through a more | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
progressive tax system. Governments have been terrified of having a | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
more progressive tax system. That is one way of claiming it back. | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
winter fuel allowance, bus passes, TV licences? The best way to do | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
that is to do it through a progressive tax system. Do you | :19:11. | :19:18. | |
claim such things? No. I didn't think it was right to claim my | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
state pension when I was earning quite comfortably. I think that was | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
wrong. I know most rich people probably do. That is wrong. Means- | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
testing is wrong? Means-testing - when you look at how means testing | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
works, what happens is an awful lot of people who should claim end up | :19:37. | :19:44. | |
not claiming. The thing about the bus pass - do you want to employ | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
several thousand bureaucrats to check each individual whether they | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
should be paying or whether they shouldn't? It is much better to use | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
the tax system to claw this back. You have all those bureaucrats in | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
the tax inspectorate, let them do it. Use the bureaucrats in the tax | :20:02. | :20:08. | |
inspectorate to claw it back? into a number of schools where | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
there are generations of families that have just not worked. Why is | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
that happening? Why is that continuing? Is that the thing | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
that's being aspired to just not to work? Why do you think it is | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
happening? Our benefits system does make it an easy choice sometimes | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
because if you do go out to work and if you are on the minimum pay | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
job, then maybe it is easier not to work because you are not that - it | :20:36. | :20:45. | |
is not - you are not in benefit... When I left school in t' 60 -- in | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
the '60s, every boy got a job. That job paid them enough to support | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
wife and family. I didn't know anyone on benefits through my 20s. | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
We have lost the jobs that working- class people used to get. We wiped | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
out manufacturing. All those areas where people could without going to | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
university have a good job. They have gone. I want to bring in | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
Graeme. You have been thinking about it at the Department of Work | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
and Pensions. Is it politically possible? You get into the granny | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
tax trap, you are robbing the poor. It is politically almost impossible | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
to do this? I think it is if you don't have an argument about what | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
sort of system you are trying to bring about. If you try and lop | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
bits off the system, it is hard to come up with a justification for | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
that. That is why you have to an argument about where you might | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
shift money. You could look at holding down the growth in child | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
benefit over a period of time and switching some of that into | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
childcare. With restricted resources as a country, we need to | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
think about investing in services that are going to raise our | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
employment rate. The people who were hit will protest and some of | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
them are middle-income people relatively well-off, they protest | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
very articulately? Sure, there are huge political difficulties with it. | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
There is a significant budget deficit. Welfare has to play its | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
part. You have to make an argument. Is this about re-working the | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
welfare state and any Government will have to tackle it? | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
universal credit will be so crucial. Let me give you an example. I had | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
all the growers came up saying they were having to import labour from | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
Moldova to take the picking jobs that students used to do. Because | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
of the way that the benefits system is so sticky, it is sticky as to | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
where you are located. Once you have the house, you can't move | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
somewhere else. These jobs have accommodation for the summer. You | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
can return with thousands of pounds which is what students are doing. I | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
think we do have to make sure that the universal credit, which will | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
start in six months' time, will really make those incentives for | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
moving into work and that is the best form of welfare reform you can | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
have. Will it save enough? Largely, it is a tidying-up exercise. There | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
is an overclaiming going on... There's the 65 pence withdrawal | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
rate which is much more attractive. There are some improved work | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
incentives. It has been slightly overclaimed by putting all these | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
benefits together that you will get millions of people into work. | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
Therefore you won't save as much as people think you might save? It is | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
only 10% of the benefits bill that is spent on the main out of work | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
benefits. So the big-ticket items of spending aren't there. That | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
doesn't take away from the fact we need to get more people into work. | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
Do you accept you have to change the welfare state otherwise it | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
won't exist? I started 50 years ago, I can't concede not doing something | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
each day. The idea you sit at home and watch daytime TV, that is the | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
most depressing prospect. That means you have to create jobs. We | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
have moved away from being a full employment economy. We have got - | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
in London we have a third of a million families on waiting lists. | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
Every architect is looking for work. The Lib Dems are looking at | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
accessing pension funds to fund a proper public works programme. Put | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
those people back to work, they spend that money, it creates more | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
jobs. Let's start thinking about getting people back into jobs | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
rather than just punishing people who haven't got one. If the jobs | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
aren't there, we are always talking about growth and where the jobs are | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
coming from, then I think money should be invested into really | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
providing aspiration and inspiration into the young and into | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
everybody. These days, the world is a different place. You can start - | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
I started my business in my bedroom on a laptop. It's cost - it doesn't | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
cost what it used to cost. I think we need to drive that more so. We | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
are seeing a lot more start-ups now. I think that is really important. | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
If there isn't the jobs, what are we going to do? We have to do | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
something different. Thank you all very much. | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
London down more than 2%. Bank shares down sharply. Barclays, | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
Lloyds and RBS all down by around 4%. Milan down 3.7%. Madrid down | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
3.3%. And the euro down against the dollar. It must be another meeting | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
in Brussels to try to sort out the euro crisis. Our economics editor, | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
Paul Mason, is in Brussels to try to find out what, if anything, | :25:18. | :25:28. | |
:25:28. | :25:29. | ||
might be different this time. The European leaders are running out of | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
time and options, none more urgently than this man, the interim | :25:35. | :25:44. | |
Prime Minister of Greece. Prime Minister, how long have you got? | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
There are 25 days until the Greek election, Monday nigh -- money is | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
draining out of the country's banking system. What mainstream | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
politicians in Greece want is for these limos of the European leaders | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
to bring some help, pronto. What the EU politicians need to say to | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
Greece tonight is that while the terms of the bail-out are | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
negotiable, to make them easier, more bearable for Greece as well as | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
Greek citizens, Greece's future remains firmly in the eurozone that | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
there are no plans, that nobody wants Greece out of the eurozone | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
and nobody can make it happen or will make it happen. Next problem? | :26:28. | :26:38. | |
:26:38. | :26:41. | ||
The Spanish PM met the French President today and both know the | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
markets are terrified of a banking collapse in Spain. The country's | :26:45. | :26:53. | |
banks need money, soon, to finally shore up their toxic debts. Mariano | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
Rajoy does not want to suffer the fate of the Irish and the | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
Portuguese. TRANSLATION: Most probably we will | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
need some funds to recapitalise some Spanish banks. Don't believe | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
though that we are talking about significant amounts. Please bear in | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
mind the Government has no intention or wish to seek European | :27:13. | :27:20. | |
bail-out funds to do this. Enter the French, with a demand for | :27:20. | :27:28. | |
growth. But it will be a challenge. The French President has disrupted | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
not just the traffic here in Brussels, but all the patterns of | :27:32. | :27:40. | |
previous summits, but what he needs now is action on his growth agenda. | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
On this, at least, the British Prime Minister agrees. | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
REPORTER: What is going to bang their fist on the table tonight? | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
This is an important meeting for Britain because what happens in the | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
eurozone affects our country. Of course, what we need is a decisive | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
plan for Greece and we need decisive plans to help get the | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
European economies moving. If we are not going to keep coming back | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
and back to meetings like this, we also need to deal with some of the | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
longer term issues at the heart of running a successful single | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
currency. So for the most powerful politician in Europe, Germany's | :28:15. | :28:25. | |
:28:25. | :28:27. | ||
Angela Merkel, it is crunch time. Mrs Merkel has become the nay sayer, | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
she said no to the creation of common eurobonds to stabilise the | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
currency. But she knows she is isolated at this summit. She can go | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
on being isolated as long as the majority of Germans believe she is | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
doing the best she's ever done for their country. The problem is if | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
there is a bank run, there is nothing the Greek Government can do | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
to restore confidence. That is why if you are pessimistic, the EU | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
authorities may have less than a month in the run-up to the Greek | :29:01. | :29:08. | |
elections to do something big that restores confidence. When tonight's | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
limo-logjam disperses, we will know whether they have any plan at all. | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
Paul is watching the paint dry in Brussels! Is anything happening? | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
little bit of briefing on the floor below me by Special Advisers, but | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
they haven't broken up yet. I am told by somebody with access to the | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
inner sanctum, there won't be too many decisions taken tonight. The | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
basic problem remains - they don't agree. What we are sighing are, | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
said the person I spoke to, the -- we are seeing are, said the person | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
I spoke to, are the emergence of new groups, particularly around | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
Francois Hollande. He seems to be created access with Mariano Rajoy | :29:53. | :29:59. | |
of Spain and Monte of Italy. He was imposed from above on to Italy. The | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
agenda of that little grouping is lay off Greece for a bit and give | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
this Spanish, as we heard in the clip, some way out of their banking | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
crisis that isn't so humiliating that the Government then falls. | :30:10. | :30:17. | |
Beyond that, we know they have been discussing whether what you would | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
do to give Greece 50 billion euros to leave the euro. That is a what | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
if scenario. Apart from that, we have paralysis as we have for many | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
of the other meetings. Exactly. David Cameron has been saying it | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
can't go on and on. As he well knows, it has gone on and on? | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
if you look at Mr Cameron as a sort of worked example of what's | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
happened to many political leaders here, nine months ago Cameron came | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
with an agenda, he tried to do something, he tried to contribute. | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
They are not willing bystanders now. The problem is, you see the | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
engagement begin to turn to frustration as politicians say, | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
"There's only so much we can do." The Brits are concerned about being | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
seen as outsiders butting into somebody else's problems. Many of | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
the Europeans think we caused all this. Cameron is less able to act | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
despite, as you saw in the clip, his frustration. If that is | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
anything like what other politicians are feeling, what you | :31:17. | :31:24. | |
begin to see is an ebbing away of the ability to move things along. | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
We might remember this meeting, quite possibly, as the last chance | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
they had to sort something before the Greek election presses the | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
start button on a serious crisis. Paul, we have so much to look | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
forward to. Thank you. We have more now on the Newsnight | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
investigation into how some civil servants are avoiding paying income | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
tax by channelling earnings through service companies. Peter Marshall | :31:45. | :31:53. | |
is here. The head of the student loans commission was being paid | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
�182,000 a year through a private service company. Thus reducing his | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
tax bill by tens of thousands of pounds a year. Danny Alexander, the | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
Chief Secretary to the Treasury, immediately put him on the payroll | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
and made him PAYE and ordered a review of all senior public | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
servants to see who else was on these similar arrangements. He | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
found out, as we reported, quite a lot. 2,400, he told the Commons | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
today, are on these deals. These are highly-paid people, the minimum | :32:27. | :32:36. | |
they get is �58,000 a year. If you are on a salary of �120,000 a year, | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
it means you reduce your tax and National Insurance by �23,000. | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
Danny Alexander was at pains to point out that some of these deals | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
go back two years to the past Labour Government, 20 of them go | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
back ten years, which he said was an extraordinary length of time to | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
be on contract, all the time he was at pains to stress this is not a | :32:55. | :33:04. | |
problem of this Government's making. It is clear that off payroll | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
engagement has been endemic for too many years. It is a problem that | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
built-up and was presided over by the previous Government. It is | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
likely that under their watch, many more thousands of cases of off | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
payroll payment may have come and gone yet no-one said a word. The | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
solution to this problem is not to turn a blind eye, or brush it under | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
the carpet. We have to bring an end to the don't ask, don't tell | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
approach to this issue. That is his analysis. What is he going to do | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
about it? He will make all these individuals go on staff and become | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
PAYE from September. We all have to pay our fair share, he said. This | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
will apply across the Government and the Health Service. When the | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
Government changes the law, it will apply to the public sector, too. | :33:48. | :33:55. | |
All those in controlling positions must be on the payroll. And those | :33:55. | :34:05. | |
:34:05. | :34:05. | ||
who aren't are freelancers. With no exceptions? A number of MPs were | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
questioning the BBC's arrangements so I checked before coming here. | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
The BBC's position is all BBC employees pay tax at source, PAYE, | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
others who work for the BBC but maybe freelancers, working for a | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
range of employers across the industry, they can be paid off the | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
payroll as can perhaps some presenters who may write books and | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
have multiple employers. This is quite legitimate and in agreement | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
with the Revenue. Thank you. Facebook translated its popularity | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
as a social networking site into popularity with investors in its | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
Initial Public Offering which valued shares at $38 each, though | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
almost immediately the price slid around 18% to $31. Tonight the US | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
Senate Banking Committee said it is reviewing various issues regarding | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
the offering. The bank, Morgan Stanley, which advised Facebook, is | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
being sued for allegedly warning some favoured big investors that | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
future earnings were likely to be lower than previously thought - a | :35:00. | :35:10. | |
warning smaller investors did not receive. Joe Lynam reports. | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
There is a reason why the people at the front of this shop are smiling | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
- they had just all become very real billionaires. Last Friday's | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
Facebook flotation or IPO, was one of the biggest ever and valued the | :35:23. | :35:32. | |
soirbl network at over -- social network at over $100 billion. But | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
now the lawyers have taken over. Facebook and some Wall Street banks | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
are being sued by a group of private investors who have lost | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
their T-shirts since last Friday. They allege that in the run-up to | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
the IPO Facebook warned Morgan Stanley things may not be as rosy | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
as they thought. The bank is accused of passing on that | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
information only to a select group of its Wall Street chums, instead | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
of telling all would-be investors. It is not clear whether anybody | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
broke any rules. What is clear is that if they did not break rules, | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
the rules themselves are very unfair. They gave much better | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
information to big institutional investors than they did to small | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
investors. Whether they broke the rules is probably going to be | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
litigated now. It all started so well on flotation day, shares | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
launched at $38 and rose a bit before closing where they started. | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
Rumours that some key information had been withheld as well as | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
glitches on the Nasdaq market started a big sell-off on Monday | :36:33. | :36:39. | |
and by yesterday, it had closed at $31, almost a fifth down. The | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
shares have rallied today, closing at $32. While it is highly unlikely | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
that fewer people will use Facebook as a result of the IPO, its | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
reputation may have taken a knock. Facebook was to become the medium | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
for targeted advertising on a social network. Losing investors | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
billions in two or three days may scare off some would-be advertisers. | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
To see all these shareholder lawsuits going on, to have a share | :37:08. | :37:15. | |
price that was ramped pre-IPO and then went down afterwards, that is | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
not good. Secondly, longer term, I know because this will be hard for | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
us, is recruitment. If you have a share price, particularly if you | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
are in the heart of Silicon Valley, and your share price is going down, | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
that could damage your long-term prospects. Talent is everything. | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
What was the vital bit of information which may have been | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
withheld from some smaller investors before the float? When | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
Facebook went global in 2006 it was enjoyed mostly on large screen | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
devices such as desktops and laptops. Adverts worked because | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
they didn't dominate the page. Now we consume our social networking on | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
hand-held devices and smartphones. There, advertising is too small to | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
be effective or too big that it annoys the user. It was that fear | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
that Facebook might not be able to get as much money from phone users | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
that caused concern. Morgan Stanley said today that it had follow load | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
the same procedures for the Facebook offering that it follows | :38:17. | :38:24. | |
for all IPOs and these procedures were in compliance with all | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
applicable regulations. With nearly one billion regular users, Facebook | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
is the world's most valuable address book. It has been tainted a | :38:32. | :38:41. | |
little by appearing to cosy up to Wall Street over mom and pop | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
invstors investors. Andrew Edgecliffe-Johnson is Media | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
Editor at the Financial Times and Dan Wagner is a Venture Capitalist. | :38:49. | :38:56. | |
Andrew, did Morgan Stanley get this wrong? It did a brilliant job for | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
their client. They got $16 billion of cash out of investors who seemed | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
to be lining up for this IPO. At the same time, the price was not | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
sustained and every adviser to a flotation like this wants to see a | :39:11. | :39:20. | |
pop, they want to see the shares go up 10% and stay there and build-up. | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
The difficult balance here is that a bank advising a company like | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
Facebook is trying to do two different things. It is trying to | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
get the best price for the company and for its original investors who | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
might be selling out. But it is also trying to keep the new | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
investors happy and engaged and create a good buzz around the | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
company. There is certainly not a good buzz around the company today. | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
It is a failure. It's not worked the way it is supposed to. Dan, | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
quite a few American newspapers have used the word "botched" - do | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
you agree? Not really. The IPO was priced fully. It certainly was... | :40:01. | :40:07. | |
At the top end? Yes. What happens is typically with an IPO it is | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
book-built during the process with investor demand and the price may | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
get pushed up. You have to remember these investment banks work for the | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
institutional investors because they are the ones who keep taking | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
the new issues every time a new one comes along. They want stuff them | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
with an expensive stock because there's demand. They will try and | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
price it as fairly as they can with the expectation there will be an | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
uplift in the after- market. What Andrew called a pop. Do you think | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
it is right, is it normal for some of those more favoured big | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
institutional investors to have information that mum and dad back | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
home buying a few shares doesn't get? I don't believe they do. The | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
SEC has strict guidelines. You have an S1 that gets filed with the SEC. | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
It was restated with new information. Anyone can go to the | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
web and download the S1 to read it in detail. So I think that full | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
information was out there. Whether everyone took advantage of that | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
before making their investment is up to them. Andrew, is there a | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
problem in this because of Facebook likes to look after the little | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
people, that is part of the image, whether you believe that or not is | :41:18. | :41:24. | |
up to you. Do you think that is an image problem for them now? I think | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
it is difficult. They have 900 million users. This is what has | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
built them up into this company. They have also said in that filing | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
that Dan refers to, we were not, we didn't start life trying to be a | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
company. We started off with a social mission. We don't wake nup | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
the morning and think about profit -- wake up in the morning and think | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
about profit first. This, frankly, makes you wonder whether they could | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
have been a bit more like a normal company. There are lawsuits piling | :41:56. | :42:04. | |
up. Regulators are lining up to look at this. The facts will not be | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
clear for a little while. What is disclosed in the court process, we | :42:08. | :42:14. | |
have yet to find out. So there is always a grey area where the big | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
investment banks are allowed to communicate with the big clients, | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
to point out that that sentence in the filing is the important one, | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
where they talk about slowing a mobile growth, the mom and pop | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
investor might well have missed that. So people involved in the IPO | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
today are saying the information was out there for everybody to see, | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
there was a lot of press about it, we wrote about it in the Financial | :42:39. | :42:49. | |
:42:49. | :42:51. | ||
Times. But it is a grey area. I want to bring in Dan. Do you | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
think it is a problem for Facebook in future? No, I don't. We have to | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
remember two things. Shares go up and they go down. In this case, the | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
shares have gone down a little bit. This is a business that has the | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
most extraordinary profile. It's gone from profits, from losses in | :43:09. | :43:18. | |
2008 to a profit of a billion. Based on... It has 900 million | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
users. Exactly. Based on people loving what they do and thinking | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
this is a nice, friendly thing. If that is damaged, then they haven't | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
got... I don't think that is damaged. It is a dominant player in | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
social media and it will remain the dominant player for some years to | :43:35. | :43:41. | |
come. Thank you. Let's look at tomorrow's front-pages. The | :43:41. | :43:51. | |
:43:51. | :43:52. | ||
Guardian has the EUfissure widens - - EU fissure widens over Greece. | :43:52. | :43:59. | |
The FT, Europe braced for turmoil as Greece fears take their toll. | :43:59. | :44:07. | |
It's got Facebook down below. The Times has market slides amid future | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
over Greece. The Mail has a story about a British rabies victim | :44:14. | :44:23. | |
fighting for his life. The Independent - eurozone set to | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
abandon Greece and austerity. Finally, the Telegraph as Welfare | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
to Work fraud scandal, whistleblower accuses company of | :44:33. | :44:42. | |
misusing billions... What is that about, David? The best way of | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
helping people is to get them into work off benefits. The Government's | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
big idea is to pay private companies to do that. They are | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
channelling �5 billion into that. They pay them by results. What if | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
those results aren't all that they seem? The Telegraph are leading on | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
secret testimony by one of the auditors of the Welfare to Work | :45:03. | :45:11. | |
provider A4e. He describes Welfare to Work as "multi-billion pound | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
scandal" and there is an unevidentical culture. In the past, | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
the Department for Work and Pensions has said that if they do | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
uncover systematic fraud, they will lose all of their Government | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
contracts. Now, Newsnight has obtained a report by a man called | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
Eddie Hutchinson, head auditor at A4e between 2011/12. He testified | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
at the Public Accounts Committee yesterday. Now, rather surprisingly, | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
that testimony was heard in secret, as was insisted on by some | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
Conservative members. Now, that is why it has not emerged until now. | :45:50. | :45:57. |