Browse content similar to 29/05/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, in a blow to several restaurants, but not much else, the | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
west decides to exspell some senior Syrian diplomats, as a response to | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
the cold-blooded murder to men, women and children, it is not what | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
you would call, apocalyptic, what else could they do? The United | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
Nations peace envoy hasn't found peace, nor does he have an | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
alternative to plan now roundly redundant. The six-point plan is | :00:34. | :00:43. | |
not being implemented as it must. We are at a tipping point. We talk | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
to the US State Department about what ought to happen next. Amid | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
street demonstrations against state corruption, why is the European | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
Union so anxious to admit Montenegro. | :00:54. | :01:01. | |
If a former Prime Minister, his best friends are Mafia bosses, I | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
mean, how can you say that we are not a Mafia state. | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
As the Government tells us to emulate the Victorians to build a | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
new national infrastructure, the Archbishop of Canterbury reminds us | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
what Dickens would have said. So you have made it, so what are | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
you going to do? Are you going to tread on the fingers of those who | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
got you there? Are you going to assume you have a God-given right | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
to enjoy what you have earned, because that is all that matters? | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
We will discuss what the Victorians did for us. And whether they are | :01:33. | :01:43. | |
:01:43. | :01:44. | ||
really a role model for anyone these days. | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
Entire families in the Syrian town of Houla were shot dead in their | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
homes by members of the militia loyal to President Al-Assad. That | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
was the UN's verdict today, as the former secretary-general, Kofi | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
Annan, again pleaded for the Syrian Government to abide by the | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
completely unobserved ceasefire there. Impet tent western | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
Governments expressed -- impotent western Governments expressed what | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
anger they could, by throwing out Syrian ambassadors. France has made | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
some war-like noises too. Is there any credibility in threats of | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
military action? None whatsoever at the moment. President Hollande's | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
statement tonight that it might be possible with a UN resolution, was | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
a strange kind of projection. There is no prospect of a UN resolution, | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
people talk about Russia and China that context. Let's look at Britain, | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
the Foreign Secretary says diplomacy, the Annan Plan is the | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
only game in town. The White House explicitly ruled out forced to. All | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
that is left is a co-ordinated diplomatic gesture. It was co- | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
ordinated across Europe, a diplomatic offensive giving Syrian | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
officials their marching orders. From Paris to London, Berlin, Rome, | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
the Hague, even in Bulgaria. Similar moves from announced in | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
Australia, Canada and the USA too. It is all meant to increase the | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
isolation of the Al-Assad Government. The international | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
community is appalled by the violence that has continued, by the | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
behaviour of the regime, and by the murder of so many innocent people, | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
including in the terrible massacre at Houla, which was reported at the | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
end of last week. And to get the message across to them, that they | :03:29. | :03:38. | |
have to choose, time will run out. Most of the 100 or so lives taken | :03:38. | :03:45. | |
at Houla today, the UN confirmed today, were the result of close- | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
range bullet wounds by unconfirmed militia groups. This bloody | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
confrontation has galvanised leaders to put their weight behind, | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
once more, Kofi Annan, the former UN boss and peace envoy, who was in | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
Damascus today to underline the urgency of the situation. I shared | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
with President Al-Assad, my assertion that the six-point plan | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
is not being implemented as it must. We are at a tipping point, the | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
Syrian people do not want their future to be one of bloodshed and | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
division. Yet the killings continue and the abusers are still with us | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
today. What is Mr Annan's six-point plan? Effectively it is a watered- | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
down version of an earlier Arab League map for an orderly | :04:39. | :04:49. | |
:04:49. | :04:59. | ||
The appeal for a UN monitored ceasefire was briefing observed, | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
but it has since collapsed, and the call for the Government to stop | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
using heavy weapons in population centres has been ignored. And also | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
the provision that there should be timely humanitarian assistance to | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
all areas affected by the fighting. If there is no possibility of | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
military action, what alternatives are there? As I was saying there, | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
the diplomatic package has moved further and further away are from | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
this Arab League plan of a few months ago, that put quite specific | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
details forward about how there might be a transition in Syria, the | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
vice-president taking over as a caretaker, elections, all that kind | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
of thing. It was watered down to get the Russians and Chinese on | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
board. The further they have gone in that direction, the less likely | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
it is that the Syrian opposition groups would accept this package, | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
and they won't. That is an important factor here, they won't | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
accept the Annan Plan either. In order to walk them back, the | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
Russians and the Chinese, towards something the Syrian opposition | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
would accept, there is this intensive diplomacy. William Hague | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
in Moscow yesterday, President Hollande, due to meet Mr Putin | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
later in the week. They believe that Russia is in the mood to move | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
back some way towards something the Syrian opposition might accept. | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
That is pretty much the only game in town. It is diplomatic, it is an | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
attempt to bring the Russians and Chinese back into a mainstream. But | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
it is not looking particularly likely at the moment. All the signs | :06:27. | :06:35. | |
on the ground seem to be of escalation. For more news of what | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
the international community might or can do, I spoke a short time ago | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
to a member of the US State Department in Washington. It was | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
very striking that Kofi Annan did not say that most of these killings | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
were the work of President Al- Assad's men, were you disappointed | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
by that? I think we have seen reports from the UN observers, and | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
the monitors on the ground, who have talked about the fact that | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
some of these deaths were clearly caused by heavy artillery, but also | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
that many of the women and children were summarily executed by these | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
gangs of thugs. The Shah hib bas, that Al-Assad -- shabihas that Al- | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
Assad employs to do his handiwork. The fact that Kofi Annan chose not | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
to attribute any blame, does that strike you as odd? I believe the UN | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
monitors on the ground that there is a clear indication that this was | :07:33. | :07:43. | |
:07:43. | :07:44. | ||
carried out by Syrian forces. Again, it is just an atrocious act, and | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
unforgiveable, that is why we were prompted today to ask the Syrian | :07:50. | :07:58. | |
charges defares today here in washing don charges deaf fares to | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
leave. It was What was the use in that? | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
is a way of saying we reject your representative in Washington, and | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
you have crossed a line in this latest massacre. It doesn't achieve | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
anything, does it? We are pursuing a strategy across many fronts, we | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
have said we will go back to the UN Security Council, if we don't feel | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
Annan's plan will be successful. We are also continuing to keep up the | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
economic sanctions, the political pressure on Al-Assad and his regime. | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
The ceasefire has clearly failed, what do you want the UN Security | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
Council to do now? We are going to wait for Kofi Annan's deputy to | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
brief the Security Council tomorrow in New York, then we will continue | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
to or begin to consult with our partners. Secretary Clinton was | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
clear she would seek a chapter 7 resolution, we will continue to | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
consult going forward. Do you not worry that with thugs | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
going around, murdering children in their own homes, that this business | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
of trying to consult with people is all together pretty ponderous and | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
ineffective? Let's be clear, that it is the Al-Assad regime that is | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
culpable here. That is responsible for the violence. The international | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
community is increasingly speaking with one voice. You saw it from the | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
very strong Security Council statement over the weekend. Where | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
Russia, obvious low, and China, came on board -- obviously, and | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
China, came on board. We think we will bring the increasing pressure | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
to bear on Al-Assad. His cronies around him will increasingly look | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
at themselves on the wrong side of history. France has called | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
President Al-Assad a murderer, does the United States? Look, we have | :09:44. | :09:52. | |
said all along, and in fact, one of the outcomes of the last Friends of | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
Syria meeting, was an accountability group, we have made | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
very clear we will hold those responsible for perpetrating these | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
crimes responsible, be it Al-Assad or any of his cronies. I note you | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
haven't used the word "murderer", it is yet more talk of talk. But is | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
there any point at which you would contemplate military intervention? | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
We have long said that we don't believe that further militarisation | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
of the situation on the ground in Syria is going to do any good. What | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
is very clear is that we need to end the violence, Al-Assad has | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
shown no willingness, whatsoever, to comply with the Annan Plan. So | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
we are going to go back and consult with the Security Council for next | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
steps. Thank you for joining us. | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
Montenegro, how many of us could find it on a map? Yet if the | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
political elite in that country, and the political elite in the | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
European Union get their way, some time in the near future, it will | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
join the beacon of enlightenment, the European Union. Its tourist | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
board calls Montenegro the pearl of the Mediterranean. Its moral | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
reputation is another thing. The EU admits Montenegro is corrupt. You | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
might think the organisation is in if a big enough mess, not to want | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
to add another member with a flexible attitude for public | :11:13. | :11:23. | |
:11:23. | :11:25. | ||
accounting. That would misread things most seriously. | :11:25. | :11:32. | |
The mountains of Montenegro fall away into the Adriatic, its marinas | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
and hotels rise in the other direction. The collision of ancient | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
towns, exclusive islands, and modern development, is pulling in | :11:41. | :11:51. | |
tourists and billionare investors. Now it wants to join us in the EU. | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
Yet, in a country of just 670 though, masses are Marching. | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
Furious, that instead of -- marching, furious, that instead of | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
benefiting from modernisation, they are paying for it. | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
This is the latest in a series of protests that has brought thousands | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
of Montenegrins out on to the streets. | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
They are thoughting "thieves", accusing political leaders of | :12:24. | :12:33. | |
:12:34. | :12:35. | ||
looting the country they helped to build. This woman leads a growing | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
movement calling for a break from the past. She says the EU is | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
ignoring the reality of corruption. Everyone is closing their eyes to | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
the fact that we are living in a country where the Government and | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
the executive, and all parts of the power are closely linked to the | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
organised gangs. This is the man they blame, Milo Djukanovic, six- | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
times Prime Minister of Montenegro. He's filmed here helping anti-Mafia | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
police with their inquiries. His name topped the indictment over an | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
international cigarette smuggling conspiracy. The charges against him | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
were eventually dropped, but protestors see Milo Djukanovic, who | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
remains President of the Country's ruling party, as a damaging | :13:20. | :13:27. | |
influence. If you have a former Prime Minister | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
accused of the smuggling in Italy, and if his best friends are Mafia | :13:34. | :13:42. | |
bosses, I mean, how can you say that we are not a Mafia state. | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
Controversy surrounding Mr Duk stretches back a long way. | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
Just over 20 years ago, Milo Djukanovic became Prime Minister of | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
Montenegro. And ordered one of the infamous attacks of the Balkan wars. | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
From the high ground above Dubrovnik, his forces | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
indiscriminately shelled the ancient city, causing international | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
outrage. The seven-month siege left more | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
than 100 civilians dead. In the bloody wars that tore Yugoslavia | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
apart, Djukanovic supported the Serbs. His Government handed over | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
Bosnian Muslims, many of whom were murdered. Survivors were given | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
compensation, while Croatian neighbours received an apology for | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
the ruin in Dubrovnik. This is just before the siege of Dubrovnik. | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
Montenegrin magazine has been pursuing him ever since, arguing he | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
should be dealt with before the country joins Europe. I believe | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
this Montenegro cannot be part of the EU before we have Milo | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
Djukanovic charged for the financial crimes, and for the war | :14:58. | :15:08. | |
:15:08. | :15:10. | ||
crimes. He made Montenegro one of the most corrupt countries in | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
Europe. The charges that Mr Duk and his allies have maintained -- Mr | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
Duk duck and his allies have maintained -- Milo Djukanovic and | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
his allies have relied on smuggling to earn money. At its height | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
cigarette smuggling kept Montenegro financially afloat. Using | :15:30. | :15:37. | |
speedboats, up to 70 of them, according to Italian sources. Every | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
night they would tear across the waters bringing illegal cigarettes | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
into Italy, the Mafia would distribute them throughout Europe. | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
The Prime Minister add mits his predecessor is controversial, but | :15:54. | :16:00. | |
says he has guided them towards EU membership, and refers to him by | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
his former title. Prime Minister Djukanovic was the leader of the | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
pro-independence block, he was and is still a western ally. It was him | :16:11. | :16:18. | |
who helped Montenegro be granted status for the EU. Mr Djukanovic | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
has been around in politic for 20 years, it is not easy to remain in | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
politics in the western Balkans and not to be treated as fairly or | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
unfairly and as controversial. protestors are accusing your | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
Government of window dressing for corruption committed under the | :16:34. | :16:41. | |
system of Milo Djukanovic. Do you recognise that? I think that | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
everybody should be duj judged by merit. I think month -- judged by | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
merit. I think Montenegro belongs to a rare group of countries that | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
go have managed to make progress on every international recoginsable | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
indicator. Outside the Prime Minister's office, protestors are | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
demanding an investigation into the privatisation programme. Which they | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
say has broken the back of major industries. Like alluminium. We do | :17:09. | :17:17. | |
not have factories any more. Our major business is smuggling. Just | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
across from the Monitor office, is the headquarters of Professor bank, | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
or First Bank, sold off by the state, it is partly owned and | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
controlled by the Djukanovic family. The bankers funded a lot of the | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
development along the coast, but there are new questions about its | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
operation. We have obtained documents that show, for the first | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
time, what was really going on inside the Djukanovic bank. This is | :17:44. | :17:51. | |
a report from accountants Price Waterhouse, it shows most of the | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
money deposited at the bank came from public fund, while two-thirds | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
of the money handed out in loan, went to the Djukanovics and their | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
asolts. The report -- associates. The | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
report, which was never published, shows that money went to groups | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
convicted of drug smuggling. And others indicted with Milo | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
Djukanovic by the anti-Mafia unit. This journalist said the bank had | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
been used as a personal cash machine. It was an ATM for the | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
private interests. I need to boy real estate, where do I get money? | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
-- buy real estate, where do I get money? I go to the bank. Nobody | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
noticed, Montenegro had unilaterally adopted the euro as | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
its currency, the economy was booming, and the coastline | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
transforming. The country was excitingly recast, the obvious | :18:45. | :18:55. | |
:18:55. | :19:00. | ||
place to relaunch an icon of sophistication. | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
But the financial crisis washed up here too. And The House of Cards | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
collapsed. The Djukanovic Government had to bail out the | :19:10. | :19:20. | |
Djukanovic Bank. Then it had to be repaid confidential documents show | :19:20. | :19:28. | |
a series of unusual transactions. The way it went is the Government | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
borrowed �1 million, and the Government back to the bank, it was | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
�1 million. That happened 11-times. So effectively, what was happening | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
here? It was Ping-Pong in millions. By the end of all that, the | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
Government had effectively picked up the tab. That ofn't the only | :19:49. | :19:59. | |
:19:59. | :20:01. | ||
oddity. The most outrageous thing we found was in 2008, the bank | :20:01. | :20:08. | |
failed to pay deposors in time, but they found many thousands and | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
millions to bank roll a concert by Madonna. The money was supposed to | :20:14. | :20:22. | |
come from private sponsors, instead it came mainly from public funds. | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
Only last week EU officials said corruption remained a serious | :20:26. | :20:34. | |
concern. Others have been harsher, the influential foreign affairs | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
magazine called Montenegro a Mafia state. Angering its Prime Minister. | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
That is ungrounded. How can a country that is supposed to open | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
accession talks next month with the EU, which is selected among the ten | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
most committed to transparency reforms be claimed the way it was | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
claimed? Whatever the ructions over Greece, the accession of the Balkan | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
states remains a priority for the EU. Perhaps a triumph of hope over | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
experience, today the commission said next month's talks will help | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
bring Montenegro up to European standards. | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
The European Commission actually has a whole arm devoted to EU | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
enlargement, which advises countries like Montenegro, on how | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
to fast-track their way into the club. | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
Stefano Sannino is the director- general of the European Commission | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
for enlargement. He joins us from Brussels. Can you tell us how the | :21:32. | :21:40. | |
EU would be improved by admitting a Mafia state? First of all, the | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
definition of Mafia state is a little bit unfair in the as soon as | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
when you define a whole country and condemn a whole country, it is | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
always some how going a little bit beyond what is the real problem, | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
like the one that Montenegro has concerning corruption. You accept | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
that corruption exists in Montenegro, don't you? We do accept, | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
and we have written in our report, that it remains a problem that | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
needs to be addressed, and continues to be addressed. We have | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
also written in our report that there are efforts that have been | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
made in the last year-and-a-half, concerning the fact that this | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
corruption, when it comes to the definition of a more proper legal | :22:27. | :22:34. | |
framework, when it comes to the development of a track record of | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
the fight against corruption in different phase. When it comes also | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
to the reaction of the civil society to the issue of corruption | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
in Montenegro. Is it close to doing any of those things? We believe | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
that a big effort has been certainly made in the definition of | :22:56. | :23:02. | |
a proper legal framework. Recently there has been laws that have been | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
passed earning the financing of political parties, or law on free | :23:06. | :23:13. | |
access of information. Or initiatives to avoid the conflict | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
of interest, there were a number of Members of Parliament who are | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
members of management boards of private companies, and had to | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
resign from their positions. From that point of view, there has been | :23:25. | :23:31. | |
a clear improvement. I ask you the question again, sorry to cut across | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
you, I ask you the question again, how is the EU improved by admitting | :23:35. | :23:45. | |
:23:45. | :23:46. | ||
a country in this state? The EU has the enlargement of the EU an | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
element which is part of the story of the EU. It is an element that | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
this part of the DNA. We believe that enlarging to the western | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
Balkans is part of creating a narrative for the EU of | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
reconciliation, and of stability and security for all the countries | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
for the region. We believe that by improving the conditions in this | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
country situation, in Montenegro, also the situation in the European | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
Union, it can improve in terms of stability and security. Is anyone | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
in Brussels considering whether this policy of constant enlargement | :24:25. | :24:35. | |
is a sensible one? We believe that in spite of the fact it may be now | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
that the appetite for enlargement may be reduced, it is still one of | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
the most successful policies of the EU. If we think in terms it of the | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
enlargement to the centre of western European countries, or to | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
the countries that are coming out from dictatorship, like Spain, | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
Portugal or Greece. These are all elements that have created again | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
stability, security and better prosperity, even in the European | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
Union. Your definition of stability is very interesting, I wonder | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
whether in the current circumstances, it might be thought | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
wise to put some of this expansion on hold, while you sort out the | :25:14. | :25:24. | |
:25:24. | :25:25. | ||
crisis in the euro? The euro crisis has not been determined by the | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
enlargement in central and eastern European countries. There are | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
problems that are touching countries that were, very very | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
beginning of the story of the union itself. I wouldn't say this is a | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
problem of enlargement. It is a problem of the countries of the | :25:40. | :25:50. | |
:25:50. | :25:51. | ||
European Union. I do understand that determination to move ahead in | :25:51. | :25:58. | |
the area of enlargement, is now being used, and member states are | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
asking us to be much more careful in the process. In making it sure | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
that if and when we are admitting the member states, we are making | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
sure it has all the capacities to - - capacity to bear the | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
responsibilities and duties of a report member-state. Thank you for | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
joining us. To the second of our films looking | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
at this country through the eyes of three English authors. Shakespeare | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
last night, Dickens tonight. The Prime Minister keeps banging on | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
about how essential it is for this country to rediscover the spirit | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
which drove the Victorian, to build railways, waterways and sewers. He | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
appears to believe that such a dediscovery is the only way to stop | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
us falling further behind other western countries. As the man who | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
dropped down the chimney in Nicholas Nickleby, bring on the | :26:49. | :26:58. | |
lightning, a clean tumble or a corkscrew. | :26:58. | :27:06. | |
-- a clean tumbler, or a corkscrew. It was the best of times, it was | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
the worst of times. There is now an urgent need to build for the future, | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
with as much confidence and ambition as the Victorians once did. | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
It was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness. | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
Infrastructure isn't just about business, it is an all pevasive | :27:23. | :27:30. | |
force in society too. Money can do anything. What is it people want | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
for the future? They want reasonable things, a decent home, a | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
clean environment, jobs for their children. Please, Sir, can we have | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
some more. Every transforming generation in our history, has left | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
a legacy like their's. I say, we must get out, be bold, and create a | :27:49. | :27:56. | |
legacy of our own. God bless us, every one. | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
Enormous heaps of earth and clay were thrown up, wrote Dickens, | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
about the railway coming to Camden Town in London. He could have been | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
decribing the CrossRail project in the capital today. | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
Is this the kind of thing that Mr Cameron had in mind when he talked | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
about the new Victorian. This huge great piece of kit, tunnelling | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
under the surface of London. Well, the Victorians would certainly | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
recognise the enterprise and the ambition, if not the same scale of | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
this. Because the first underground | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
railways anywhere, were excavated beneath this city, years ago by the | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
Victorian. They followed almost -- 150 years ago by the Victorians. | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
They followed exactly the same route. The scale of things we are | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
doing today are comparable, they are bigger, larger and more | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
sophisticated. But there is a sense of going back to the Victorian days | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
to value infrastructure across the UK. It is not only great public | :28:57. | :29:05. | |
works that we associate with the Victorians. | :29:05. | :29:13. | |
In layman's terms, the adjective "dixenian" is a darker vision, it | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
is the other side of the coin of industrial development, it is | :29:18. | :29:24. | |
exploitation, poverty, hopelessness. Are we living through Dickensian | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
times, as most of us would understand the term? My main sense | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
is an anxiety that the gulf between the top and bottom of the economic | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
ladder has grown and is growing. That is not something we really | :29:38. | :29:46. | |
tackled. Are you disappointed? feel disappointed? I think I do. | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
I think there have been moments in the last decade and more, when | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
perhaps we might have been able to take a different line. So many | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
people have said, privately and publicly, the financial crisis | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
means there is no going back, we can't restore the boom economy | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
there was, we have to think again about what wealth is for. We have | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
to think again about the role of trust, and personal relationship in | :30:11. | :30:18. | |
business. I think, yes, yes and yes, and where are the signs of it. So a | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
couple of challenges we haven't risen to, with a generosity that | :30:22. | :30:29. | |
Dickens might have encouraged us to feel. | :30:29. | :30:36. | |
Dickens travelled to Preston by train, to report on the lot of the | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
industrial working-class. His novel, Hard Times, based on his | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
experiences in the North West, documents their punishing working | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
lives, and unenviable living conditions. | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
Team was king, powering Britain's factories and ships. And the | :30:56. | :31:02. | |
railways, of course. We are on our way. This is | :31:02. | :31:10. | |
fantastic. Times were hard, as Dickens observed, but at least | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
there was plenty of working to around. The boys and girls of the | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
Ribble Steam Railway, keep the Victorian dream alive here. But | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
what about life in the rest of Preston, in the time of David | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
Cameron's new Victorians. Preston is a post-industrial city. | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
It has levels of unemployment which actually affect the national | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
average, it also has underemployment. It still has many | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
of the problems that it had in the 19th century, about people not | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
being able to get enough money to meet the costs of their daily lives. | :31:45. | :31:53. | |
I think he would recognise those issues if he came here today. There | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
isn't so much of the philanthropy that there was in the 19th century | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
here either. There isn't the great infrastructure projects, there | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
aren't people leaving vast legacies to build things like the Harris | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
Museum. The fine classical facade of the Harris Museum, is testament | :32:11. | :32:18. | |
to the days when city fathers put their hands in their own deep ducts, | :32:18. | :32:25. | |
-- pockets to make Preston proud. If we are return to boldness, we | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
shouldn't forget what is happening in our own back yards. I would like | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
to think the Prime Minister is right about living in an age of | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
national ambition. Its not just about national ambition, it is | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
about and civic ambition, about the sense of the real pride about the | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
immediate environment. The great relic of Victorian life in Leeds, | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
Manchester and Cardiff. Where you see how people invest themselves in | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
belonging together in a city that they are proud of. | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
That we have lost, and I would like to see that coming back on to the | :33:00. | :33:10. | |
radar strongly. Preston's one place where they have | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
always talk local. Lusty-voiced, amateur singers, are tuning up for | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
a great anniversary. It isn't the Jubilee. | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
It is a celebration, which only comes around once every 20 years. | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
Of the early traders who got together in these parts back in the | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
Middle Ages, to form something known as the Preston build. | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
-- Preston guild. It is all about communities, and how much we all | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
enjoy being together. We have the Olympics and the Jubilee on the | :33:43. | :33:49. | |
back burner and celebrating the Guild. Why is it so good? It is | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
Preston girls, far more important than anything going on in the | :33:53. | :34:00. | |
country, the world actually. The poet Lemn Sissay, a Lancashire | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
lad himself, has written Anwar them to be performed at the Guild | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
festivities later in the year. A celebrated writer, who travelled | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
to Preston many years before Sissay, was also interested in the lives of | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
people. Communities. And how they fared in the shadow of the grand | :34:19. | :34:26. | |
project. -- in the events of their day. | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
was incredible about Dickens, is he was in the middle of the Victorian | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
boom. The celebration of greater ambition, and what he would do is | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
each day, he would walk the streets of London, for two hours. Dickens | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
saw the people, where as the narrative spoke about the great | :34:44. | :34:51. | |
nation. There was a difference between the narrative of the great | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
nation, and the people on the street. | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
But while Dickens studied the lot of the Victorian working-classes, | :35:01. | :35:09. | |
his ideas about how to help them ran on conventional lines. | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
He didn't want them to get above their station, says one historian | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
He's not really about systemic change. That's the great paradox at | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
the heart of Dickens heart, although he was a performer, and | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
want to go make life better for people. In terms of what he's want | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
to go do in the novel, it is conservative. He has found a way of | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
healing the lives of the main characters, and how they get healed | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
is through individual acts of love, kindness and charity. They are not | :35:42. | :35:43. | |
through wholesale intervention by the state. | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
As you say, there is this thread in Dickens that it is not just about | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
making money, it is what you do with it. Have we lost sight of that, | :35:53. | :36:03. | |
:36:03. | :36:03. | ||
if not, are people putting enough back, business oblig e. Right from | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
the start you have Dickens characters who are ludicrously | :36:08. | :36:15. | |
generous, the Cheeryble brothers in Nicholas Nickleby. But Dickens is | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
pointing out the fact that these people have used their prosperity | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
for others. The next point is you have made it, will you tread on the | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
fingers of those who got you there, or assume a God-given right to | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
enjoy what you have earned, that is all that matters, or will you see | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
it in terms of responsibility. is something they could perhaps | :36:34. | :36:41. | |
learn a few miles down the road? think Dickens would have | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
interesting novels to write about the city in the early 21st century. | :36:46. | :36:53. | |
It is more general than that, a climate which is often fearful of | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
those above and he below on the social ladder, and therefore, fist- | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
clenching, anxious, not generous, and if there is one thing that | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
Dickens is absolutely preoccupied with, obsessed with, is how you let | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
go of that anxiety. That clutching your resources to yourself. You | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
have to grow through generosity, that is, I think, the Dickens | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
lesson I would want to see etched in granite across this country. | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
Fresh from the work horse are historian and MP, Tristram Hunt, | :37:28. | :37:35. | |
who wrote Building Jerusalem, the rise and fall of the great city. | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
An ardent Dickensian, and historian and author, Kate Williams. Are you | :37:41. | :37:51. | |
:37:51. | :37:52. | ||
an ardent Victorian as well? Yes, but there are lots of kal fires. | :37:52. | :38:00. | |
But they are living -- qal -- The inequality, continuing now, was of | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
great concern. Jo it seems mistaken to link Dickens to the Victorians. | :38:05. | :38:12. | |
He has talked about the Victorian writer, but most of his writing was | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
pre -Victorian period. I would have thought one of the key things about | :38:17. | :38:24. | |
the Victorian era, is by the late Victorian era, Britain had passed | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
its appag y. Above all manufactureed and machine tools, is | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
that Britain had already been overtaken by the Germans and United | :38:33. | :38:41. | |
States. Also a public school ethic which had enormous importance and | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
had a disastrous impact on the future of British Industry and | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
economy. I think it is right. What is interesting about Hard Times, | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
which is one of the few moments when Dickens goes outside of London. | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
I don't think it is a particularly successful book, but the philosophy | :39:00. | :39:06. | |
he was wrestling with there, is the philosophy of utilitarianism, he | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
was going to call it other things. He was battling against the | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
amorality of the Industrial Revolution, not just pollution and | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
commiseration. That is a philosophy of the 1810s and 20s, and through | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
to the Victorian period. Dickens is dealing, Max is right. He writes | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
about the earlier work house, the work house is continuing. Exactly | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
the same system. This is the concern. The philosophy of the new | :39:35. | :39:42. | |
poor law, again, is a pre-Victorian deal. What about the idea of the | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
constant invocation of the new Victorian cage? God forbid, I can't | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
think of anything more disastrous. In particular, the public school | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
ethic, this is not a class issue, but in terms of the ethic that the | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
public schools are perpetrated, the obsession with the arts and classic, | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
the anti-scientific bias in for public schools, and will be | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
disastrous for Britain in the next century. That is one story in it, a | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
story which David Cameron doesn't understand. He wants these big | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
infrastructure project, HS2, CrossRail, and pour more money into | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
London. The whole point about the Victorian period is you had an | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
equality. Manchester, Glasgow and- on-Trent, were as important as | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
London. If you are really a modern Victorian, you begin HS2 in | :40:33. | :40:43. | |
:40:43. | :40:45. | ||
Manchester. Manchester was theed modern city? It was built on the | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
free trade principle. You have such wealth and civic pride there, you | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
didn't need the loose, 18th sent free London, which Cameron seems to | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
have. That is what we don't have. The notion of our moral-owned | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
responsibility. The Victorian, wherever they could, did believe it. | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
When we think about the perception and coverage of the Greek crisis, | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
Christine Lagarde is saying they spent too much and they don't | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
deserve our help. That is a complete Victorian notion of the | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
deserving poor. That is what we are interesting to look at. | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
The great thing about the Victorian, for all the stuff about balancing | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
the books, they weren't afraid of debt. How did they build the Town | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
Halls and infrastructures, local authorities could go massively into | :41:32. | :41:39. | |
debt. That is how they could achieve so much. All the Thatcher | :41:39. | :41:47. | |
stuff aboutle baing the book, and what my Victorian grandmother told | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
me. Are we saying, the one thing that Victorians were really good at | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
was local Government. Local self- Government was the abiding idea | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
they had which they traced back to the Saxons. This what partly gave | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
the energy to the cities of the Victorian period, such prowess. | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
is changing things when sawers are sunk and drains are laid on and | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
water and electricity and glass. These are seen as public goods. Is | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
something changes when they become a matter of private enterprise and | :42:17. | :42:24. | |
there is some small obscure item on a balance sheet out some where. | :42:24. | :42:32. | |
do did they begin, we have this array of train stations, our | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
Fenchurch, Canon, King's Cross. Because private enterprise does it | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
to begin with. It is not the most efficient manner. Only in the | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
latter half of the 19th century do you begin to get a proper sensible | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
direction, and state intervention, to deliver these things. This idea | :42:47. | :42:55. | |
of the Victorian period being minimalist, and night watch line is | :42:55. | :43:02. | |
a charicature. We would only agree that only very stupid people | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
idealise the Victorian era. What I mean is although the Victorians had | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
a colossal energy, when one look f one says if Dickens were here now, | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
would he recognise anything he said. He would recognise people like Bob | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
scam diamond, and embrace these people, as living descendants of | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
all the ghastly Nicholas Nickleby that he wrote about. On the other | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
hand, the era of absolute poverty, that he wrote about. Unspeakable | :43:30. | :43:37. | |
poverty, in both town and country, thank God, is no longer with us. | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
is coming back because of the dismandling of the benefits system. | :43:42. | :43:48. | |
We are becoming the virsorian d dismantling of the benefits system. | :43:48. | :43:57. | |
We are becoming like the -- Victorians dismantling the benefits | :43:57. | :44:04. | |
system. We are increasingly turning into a Victorian version, as the | :44:04. | :44:13. | |
benefits system is dismantled, do we put everyone in a bubble. | :44:13. | :44:21. | |
think the idea of workfulness, duty, that non-conformist inheritance. | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
Kate Williams was talking a lot about, the ideas of the | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
philanthropy and so on? We don't have that now. I would have thought | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
philanthropy was always a minority activity. I would have thought we | :44:34. | :44:40. | |
still have a terrific, all the modern Sainsbury's, and such like. | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
Now we get a tax break. I'm not persuaded there are any | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
more or fewer than there were now. What we don't have, which is what | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
they had, are those middle-class, non-conformists, who readered | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
themselves in competition with each other, and sought to emulate each | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
other, to give money to the Harris Museum, the Town Hall, the park, as | :45:05. | :45:12. | |
part of their civic duet. We don't have the -- duties. You don't have | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
head offices, you have branches in Leicester, in Nottingham, you don't | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
have the civic elite in bed with the community. You are right about | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
that, it is very important. A lot of these people are driven by very | :45:27. | :45:35. | |
strong impulses? We have to figure out how to get back there. | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
notion that we have responsibility, it will turn a searching eye that | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
we see ourselves as disadvantaged because we don't have three | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
holidays a year, that is why we don't give money to the poor people | :45:47. | :45:55. | |
in this country. We expect the state to sort everything out. | :45:55. | :46:02. | |
year we commemorate the sent teenry of Octavia Hill, a strong belief | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
that there should be a respectable working-class, that they had duties | :46:06. | :46:15. | |
as well as rights. The 5% fall lanthropy meant you paid your -- | :46:15. | :46:24. | |
philanthropy meant you paid your bills in the right time. | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
Increase reeing we will see only the good poor -- increasingly we | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
will see only the good poor get anything. We are living in harsh | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
world. Back to the Victorians, they lived on this massive commercial | :46:37. | :46:43. | |
empire of exploitation. On Thursday our series continues with a look at | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
what the changing times of James Bond tell us about Britain's place | :46:46. | :46:54. | |
in the world. We are on set with the producer, Michael G Wilson. | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
have informally spoken with various people who are part of the British | :46:58. | :47:08. | |
:47:08. | :47:08. | ||
SAS, or SBS, it isn't as far fetched as you might think. | :47:08. | :47:18. | |
:47:18. | :47:37. | ||
Tomorrow morning's front pagess now: | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
That's all tonight, tomorrow lots on what will happen if Greece takes | :47:42. | :47:49. | |
a nose dive out of the sky. The Beach Boys are visiting for a one- | :47:49. | :47:58. | |
off concert in Wembley. # The sun tanned bodies and wave of | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
sunshinele Michael foreignia girls with the | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
beautiful coast line # Warmed up weather, let's get | :48:06. | :48:16. | |
:48:16. | :48:19. | ||
together and do it again -- # Californian girls with the | :48:19. | :48:29. | |
:48:29. | :48:34. | ||
beautiful coastline Some sunshine, more showers thaned | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
today. A bright, sunny start for England and Wales. The cloud | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
increase, the showers developing, they move across from the west. | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
Fairly well scattered showers s most on the light side. There will | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
be sunshine inbetween the showers across northern England and the | :48:48. | :48:54. | |
Midland. When the sunshine is out it shouldn't feel too bad. Des | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
might showers, highest temperatures 24. Not far off today. Cooler for | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
the south west of England, showers easing down, later on in the | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
afternoon, with more sunshine. Wales as the showers moves in order | :49:06. | :49:13. | |
warts across the country, the south of -- in other words across the | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
country, the south of the country will have better weather. More | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
cloud in Northern Ireland than today. A bit cooler. For most of | :49:19. | :49:23. |