03/07/2012 Newsnight


03/07/2012

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How much is a diamond worth, Barclays chief executive goes,

:00:12.:00:15.

their chairman returns, and the sticky questions, it seems, keep

:00:15.:00:18.

coming. The men who eased out Diamond

:00:18.:00:23.

overnight, from the Bank of England, and the FSA, were around at the

:00:23.:00:26.

time when Barclays and other banks were fiddling The Libertines rate.

:00:26.:00:31.

There is growing evidence that somebody, somewhere -- the LIBOR

:00:31.:00:34.

rate. There is growing evidence that somebody, somewhere, senior,

:00:34.:00:37.

knew about it. And the row about who was told what

:00:37.:00:43.

and when at Whitehall. A former hedge fund manager and a

:00:43.:00:47.

minister will talk about who will be brought into the fray next.

:00:47.:00:50.

Also tonight: After Newsnight revealed the scale

:00:50.:00:53.

of the problem with sexual exploitation of children in care

:00:53.:00:57.

homes, we ask the Children's Minister if his new proposals will

:00:57.:01:00.

really improve these lives. They probably see a young girl, and

:01:00.:01:04.

think, ah, she don't live with her mum and dad, because they don't

:01:04.:01:08.

care, and she's in cautious of course she can come stay at mine.

:01:08.:01:12.

Then they will just get what they want. They loathe each other

:01:12.:01:16.

outside the ring, now they will fight for the first time inside T

:01:16.:01:19.

how come David Haye and Dereck Chisora can fight in London,

:01:19.:01:22.

without even having a British license. Do I look crazy to you,

:01:22.:01:28.

since you walked in the gym, do I look crazy. REPORTER: No, but you

:01:28.:01:35.

can be crazy without looking crazy? Who knows. Ahhh! The fight's

:01:35.:01:39.

promoter, Frank Warren, is here to Duke it out with the General

:01:39.:01:42.

Secretary of the British board of boxing control in their first-ever

:01:42.:01:52.
:01:52.:01:53.

bout. Good evening, it is our business to know your business,

:01:53.:01:58.

rang the old Barclays slogan, today their business is pretty confused.

:01:58.:02:02.

This morning, the man about to quit at chairman, reappointed himself,

:02:02.:02:07.

whilst the man who insisted he wasn't quitting, quit.

:02:07.:02:11.

An explosive account of conversations with the Bank of

:02:11.:02:15.

England over LIBOR rates in 2008 come out. How much were their

:02:15.:02:19.

actions motivated by what they thought Whitehall insiders and the

:02:20.:02:25.

Central Bank were encouraging them to do. If he's attacked, he will

:02:25.:02:29.

fight back, with those words, Bob Diamond's friends signalled to the

:02:29.:02:32.

media he was prepared to take down politicians and regulators in the

:02:32.:02:36.

fight to stay boss of Barclays. But this morning, London's financial

:02:36.:02:41.

centre woke to the news there was a man overboard, pushed by the

:02:41.:02:45.

regulator and the Central Bank. Diamond had resigned. The past 24

:02:45.:02:49.

hours have seen the British financial establishment in state of

:02:49.:02:53.

disarray. The men who "eased" out Bob Diamond, from the Bank of

:02:53.:02:57.

England, and the FSA, were around at the time when Barclays, and

:02:57.:03:02.

other banks,were fiddling the LIBOR rate. And today, Barclays provided

:03:02.:03:07.

evidence that somebody, somewhere, seen senior, knew about it.

:03:07.:03:12.

-- senior, knew about it. It was in October 2008, with the

:03:12.:03:17.

City still reeling from the Lehman Brothers crisis, LIBOR, the bank

:03:17.:03:22.

lending rate, was a key barometer for the rate of lending for banks,

:03:22.:03:27.

and for Barclays it was too high, consistently, signalling the bank

:03:27.:03:34.

could be in trouble. This man called Bob Diamond, after this man,

:03:35.:03:37.

Jerry Del Missier, instructed staff to fiddle the interest rate,

:03:37.:03:41.

believing he was acting on the orders of the Central Bank. The

:03:41.:03:44.

staff reluctantly complied, one said, they will not be posting

:03:44.:03:48.

honest prices. We were proudly one of the most

:03:48.:03:54.

sensitive countries in the world to LIBOR funding. So it was very keen

:03:54.:03:57.

for the Bank of England, the Treasury, everybody in the banking

:03:57.:04:02.

community, to see, that LIBOR, which was spiking up at that time,

:04:02.:04:10.

to be managed down, or to be get down as quickly as possible. What

:04:10.:04:14.

we are seeing is some people some what bent the rules to imply it was

:04:14.:04:19.

getting down faster than it really Today, Barclays submitted a note of

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the Tucker phone call, suggesting the rate had been fiddled,

:04:23.:04:27.

downwards, under political pressure from senior figures in Whitehall.

:04:27.:04:37.
:04:37.:04:47.

There was a public interest in keeping the banks in business, and

:04:47.:04:51.

that coincided with Barclays' private interest in loi-balling its

:04:52.:04:55.

estimate -- low-balling its estimates on the interest rates,

:04:55.:04:59.

because it made Barclays look more credible in the markets. Yes there

:04:59.:05:02.

is kind of a public interest defence of all of this. But I think

:05:02.:05:07.

this needs to be set in the larger context of elites having made

:05:07.:05:11.

massive errors of judgment, before and after the financial crisis.

:05:11.:05:17.

Afterall, the regulatory and the political elites, co-promoted this

:05:17.:05:23.

dodgy investment banking before 2008.

:05:23.:05:27.

Baroness Videra, Gordon Brown's City fixer at the time, said she

:05:27.:05:30.

had no recollections of any conversations with Paul Tucker

:05:30.:05:33.

about LIBOR. Alistair Darling too has denied it was him. But if a

:05:33.:05:37.

politician did pressure the bank to pressure Barclays to rig the market,

:05:37.:05:41.

it is not, say the experts, a victimless crime. This doesn't

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excuse the fact that this is a global benchmark that is trusted

:05:46.:05:50.

worldwide to be accurate. I understand there might be a reason

:05:50.:05:54.

for banks not to look like they are riskier than their peers, but that

:05:54.:06:01.

doesn't mean you can go and suggest that something should be change.

:06:01.:06:05.

There are a lot of innocent companies, trading firms, pension

:06:05.:06:10.

funds that relied on this rate to be accurate. That is a complete

:06:10.:06:14.

breakdown in the trust system in the financial markets. With Bob

:06:14.:06:19.

Diamond gone, the chairman, Marcus Agius, quickly had to unsack

:06:19.:06:23.

himself. At Canary Wharf, at Barclays and across the finance

:06:23.:06:27.

industry, they are braced for prosecutions, more banks to be

:06:27.:06:30.

fined, some class action that is could cost billions. Business

:06:30.:06:34.

experts are calling for a Leveson- style investigation, felt

:06:34.:06:37.

strengthened by today's investigations. There is a contest,

:06:37.:06:41.

isn't there, between those that want to see what has gone wrong as

:06:41.:06:44.

a narrow, technical problem to do with the culture of the trading

:06:44.:06:48.

room. Those of us who see it as a power elite problem, and the more

:06:48.:06:53.

that comes out, the more it appears to be a power elite problem, about

:06:53.:06:58.

the cosy relations between political, regulatory and financial

:06:58.:07:03.

elites, which lead to misjudgments of the public interest. Now, that

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kind of problem is only ameanable to a judicial inquiry, with a QC

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asking the questions. The future of Barclays matters, it

:07:12.:07:17.

is one of the biggest lenders to British business, but it is also a

:07:17.:07:23.

giant global investment bank w more than a �1 trillion of debt. The

:07:23.:07:27.

Diamond years have not been so kind to the domestic part of Barclays

:07:27.:07:33.

market. Four years ago Barclays' was lending �52 billion to non-

:07:33.:07:36.

financial and non-property businesses in the UK. 27% of all

:07:36.:07:43.

loans. Now the figure is just �38 billion, and just 16% of business

:07:43.:07:47.

loans. For Barclays' board, without Bob Diamond, they have got to think

:07:47.:07:52.

about, one, whether they can find someone to run an investment bank

:07:52.:07:57.

this size, that they will have a lot of confidence in. As well as,

:07:57.:08:00.

do they really want to have an investment bank this size at all.

:08:00.:08:05.

That debate must be going on right now in a very heated sense, trying

:08:05.:08:10.

to figure out what is the strategy of Barclays going forward.

:08:10.:08:14.

Diamond built his career, and personal fortune, by taking high

:08:14.:08:18.

risks with other people's money. Some how, he failed to spot at the

:08:18.:08:23.

very core of Barclays, a culture of contempt for principle, and for the

:08:23.:08:27.

rules. But so did the regulators, and so did the politicians.

:08:27.:08:34.

We will find out more tomorrow. Once again, it seems the political

:08:34.:08:37.

establishment is being called into question, who knew what, when, and

:08:37.:08:42.

what was the chain of command, were there winks and nods from the

:08:43.:08:49.

Treasury and the ministers at the time the LIBOR rate was being fixed

:08:49.:08:52.

between 2006-2009. Our political editor is here. It was interesting

:08:52.:08:57.

to hear the phrase used, "a power elite problem", how do you see

:08:57.:09:00.

this? The Government will be relieved it is not the political

:09:00.:09:04.

establishment, it is the Labour establishment, just for today, 24

:09:04.:09:09.

hours ahead of Bob Diamond's appearance, you have the spotlight

:09:09.:09:14.

thrown on the 2005 Labour cohort people inside the Treasury. Those

:09:14.:09:17.

civil servants inside the Treasury said it isn't about Alistair

:09:17.:09:21.

Darling, from whom we had hasty denial, that this is anything he

:09:21.:09:27.

would dream of doing, it is something people call the Brownite

:09:27.:09:30.

Treasury opposition. In power he was also trying to run the Treasury

:09:30.:09:36.

through people like Baroness Videra, we had a denial from her and Ed

:09:36.:09:42.

Balls, a denial from him. 9 current -- the current Government is happy,

:09:43.:09:46.

it shows it is a political fight t goes to the heart of politics at

:09:46.:09:49.

the moment. It is not just about the banking scandal but who can be

:09:49.:09:53.

trusted with the City and the public finances. And pretty

:09:53.:09:57.

frenetic briefing from both the Government and Labour. You feel

:09:57.:10:00.

that today the Government had the better day of it? This evening we

:10:00.:10:05.

have seen the Lords. It seems technical this issue of what sort

:10:05.:10:09.

of inquiry, should it be a judicial one, which is what Labour wants o

:10:09.:10:13.

should it be this narrower one which, is a parliamentary one.

:10:13.:10:16.

Tonight the Lords voted for the parliamentary one. So the

:10:16.:10:19.

Government ostensibly the better day. There are a series of reasons

:10:19.:10:23.

why they should be worried, people on the select committees, Tories

:10:23.:10:25.

saying even if it is a parliamentary inquiry, it will go

:10:25.:10:28.

on and on, longer than December, which is the deadline the

:10:28.:10:32.

Government wants it to report by t will probably end up having to call

:10:32.:10:35.

many more leaders of banks, probably the Bank of England

:10:36.:10:38.

governor. It won't, in the limited form the Government wants it to be,

:10:38.:10:43.

it won't be small beer. So, one down, you might say, but

:10:43.:10:47.

how many more to go? We know that the FSA investigations are on going,

:10:47.:10:51.

and up to maybe 20 other banks might anybody the spotlight. With

:10:51.:10:59.

us here to discuss further the former Chancellor, niejgel, now

:10:59.:11:07.

Lord Lawson, David Yarrow and Chuka Umunna our other guests.

:11:07.:11:10.

What do you think was happening between the bank and the Bank of

:11:10.:11:14.

England, is it conceivable that Barclays was some how nudged into a

:11:14.:11:17.

position they wouldn't have otherwise taken? I think it is

:11:17.:11:24.

important, first of all, to realise that there are two Separate

:11:24.:11:29.

episodes. As we know from the FSA inquiry, this thing started at

:11:29.:11:33.

least in 2005. This was going on for some time, before the financial

:11:33.:11:43.
:11:43.:11:45.

crisis, before the events of 2008, before this telephone call between

:11:45.:11:50.

Barclays' Diamond and Paul Tucker, the deputy Governor of the Bank of

:11:50.:11:54.

England. During that period it was entirely a matter of Barclays and

:11:54.:11:59.

the banks, traders. No-one bank can fix the LIBOR rate on its own t

:11:59.:12:04.

requires collusion, and a number. - It requires collusion and a

:12:04.:12:08.

number. What they were doing was for private gain, clearly, it was

:12:08.:12:11.

totally disreputable. There is no breath of a public interest defence

:12:11.:12:16.

at that stage. That was what it was going on for time. There is in this

:12:16.:12:23.

later stage, when I think it was wholly impror to fiddle t but you

:12:23.:12:27.

can mount a public interest defence. We understand there was

:12:27.:12:31.

correspondence between the Bank of England, normal, and Barclays, some

:12:31.:12:35.

how Barclays took away the message, or said that they z that they had

:12:35.:12:38.

received encouragement, or a suggestion they could maybe keep

:12:39.:12:43.

the rates lower, is that conceivable? We don't know if that

:12:43.:12:48.

happened or not. I think the hearing tomorrow will be quite

:12:48.:12:51.

prorpbt, when Bob Diamond appears - - important, when Bob Diamond

:12:51.:12:56.

appears before the select committee, chaired by a very important man,

:12:56.:12:59.

Andrew Tyrie, he used to be my special adviser when I was

:12:59.:13:03.

Chancellor, he will want to get to the bottom of this. One of the

:13:03.:13:09.

areas you may be assured is what exactly transpired in the course

:13:09.:13:14.

pond dense and the telephone conversation between -- telephone

:13:14.:13:20.

conversation between Paul Tucker and Bob Diamond. Chuka Umunna,

:13:20.:13:24.

Baroness Videra has been dragged into this, she denies any

:13:24.:13:28.

involvement. She wrote that document entitled "Getting LIBOR

:13:29.:13:37.

down: Getting LIBOR Down is Desirable". Has she anything to do

:13:37.:13:41.

with it? She denies it. If you look at the memo it refers to a

:13:41.:13:45.

Whitehall source t isn't specific. This does have the whiff of mud

:13:45.:13:50.

slinging. It will be interesting to see what exactly Mr Diamond says

:13:50.:13:54.

about this memo tomorrow, because obviously that needs to be cleared

:13:54.:13:58.

up. What exactly does it refer to. I think secondly, also, the

:13:58.:14:02.

position of the Bank of England, I think this is a very serious matter

:14:02.:14:06.

and needs to be cleared up as soon as possible. I think Mr Tucker,

:14:06.:14:09.

obviously, the sooner he comes before the Treasury Select

:14:09.:14:13.

Committee, in relation to their on going hearings on this matter, the

:14:13.:14:17.

better. Let me ask you your gut feeling, the same question, is it

:14:17.:14:23.

inconceivable that a Labour minister or adviser, would he exert

:14:23.:14:31.

pressure on a -- bank to do that type of thing? I would find that

:14:32.:14:36.

quite remarkable. Take out the word "misreport", and say we would

:14:36.:14:39.

understand it would be important for you to lower the rates. If

:14:39.:14:44.

there was some kind of nudge or wink to that I allowed them to

:14:44.:14:49.

think it was OK, could that conceivably happen? I can't see

:14:49.:14:54.

that happening myself. It is one thing to want to see the cost of

:14:54.:14:59.

borrowing reduced for businesses, it is an on going issue for them

:14:59.:15:06.

now, it is quite another to encourage misreporting and

:15:06.:15:08.

deceitful behaviour. I would be very surprised if anyone from the

:15:08.:15:11.

Treasury or the Bank of England were involved. You are right in the

:15:11.:15:14.

middle of this industry, David Yarrow, what do you think could

:15:14.:15:19.

have happened there? It is all supposition, as Lord Lawson says. I

:15:19.:15:24.

think we will know an awful lot more tomorrow. Time Diamond, I

:15:24.:15:28.

think maybe has slightly more moral sovereignty, in very small levels,

:15:29.:15:33.

than he had maybe 24 hours ago. He clearly is no fool. I would

:15:33.:15:36.

imagine's going to go in there all guns blazing tomorrow. You think

:15:36.:15:41.

this is revenge? I don't know about that, and that's, I wouldn't want

:15:41.:15:47.

to couch it in those terms. Let's not forget the summer of 2008 was

:15:47.:15:52.

the Wild West, markets were broken. Whatever happened with regard to

:15:52.:15:57.

LIBOR submission, some people gained, borrowings gained, maybe

:15:58.:16:03.

lenders lost, it was the Wild West and markets were very broken.

:16:03.:16:08.

saying it was the Wild West, do you condone or sympathise, to an extent,

:16:08.:16:11.

with a process that was probably going on at the time? Absolutely

:16:11.:16:16.

not. You will not get me either to come here and be an apologyist for

:16:16.:16:20.

what has gone done. Never in my time of 25 years in banking, has

:16:20.:16:26.

the self-esteem of the collective I work for been lower, sensitivity is

:16:26.:16:30.

never an word associated with bankers, but now people are very

:16:30.:16:35.

aware why people in the street have total contempt. I don't know if

:16:35.:16:39.

Vince Cable could have used the word cesspit, but I can understand

:16:39.:16:43.

him using that word. You say that Bob Diamond and Barclays couldn't

:16:43.:16:46.

have done this on their own, we will see other banks in the same

:16:46.:16:51.

position as Barclays, once the FSA has finished their inquiry? That is

:16:51.:16:54.

bound to happen. Barclays are in the frame, largely, because they

:16:54.:17:00.

were the first to settle. And the first to fess up, as it were. They

:17:00.:17:04.

weren't alone in this. That doesn't make any better. But there is much

:17:04.:17:10.

more to be known. Let me say anything about the City of London,

:17:10.:17:14.

which is a world class financial centre, there are not all that many

:17:14.:17:18.

major industries in which this country is world class. It is a

:17:18.:17:23.

world class financial centre, long may be it remain so. And it is not

:17:23.:17:26.

just British banks who are involved in this, there are foreign banks in

:17:26.:17:30.

London involved in this, and there the standard of ethics, I'm afraid

:17:30.:17:34.

to saying, on Wall Street, is probably even lower than in the

:17:34.:17:38.

City of London. That is a very key point, actually. This isn't just a

:17:38.:17:42.

case of indulging in another bout of banker bashing. I think Lord

:17:42.:17:46.

Lawson make as good point there about, we have one of the global

:17:46.:17:51.

financial services sectors here. But if it is to endure, it has got

:17:51.:17:55.

to demonstrate that those qualities of integrity, honesty, which, of

:17:55.:17:59.

course, form part of how the City came into being, over a couple of

:17:59.:18:03.

centuries, are still there. So there is a much bigger public

:18:03.:18:07.

interest here. Very directly, let's imagine that ten more banks get

:18:07.:18:11.

found out to have colluded in this type of operation. If ten more

:18:11.:18:14.

chief executives had to leave, would that be a good thing, would

:18:15.:18:20.

we be in a better place at the end of that? I don't think this is

:18:20.:18:23.

about individual scalps, this is why we have been calling for a

:18:23.:18:27.

commission to actually look at the culture, and the practices in the

:18:27.:18:30.

financial services sector. What doesn't wash is this notion that

:18:30.:18:35.

some how this was just a few bad eggs, a tiny minority. This is a

:18:35.:18:40.

cultural problem. If you look at Barclays' case, yesterday they were

:18:40.:18:45.

fined �59 million by the FSA for the attempted rigging of LIBOR, but

:18:46.:18:48.

they have also sustained fines of over �11 million over the past

:18:49.:18:53.

three years, for failing to make proper reports to the FSA and

:18:53.:18:57.

failing to properly separate out their monies from client monies.

:18:57.:19:01.

There was a particular situation there, but from the point of view

:19:01.:19:04.

of the public, one important point to get acorrection a complete myth

:19:04.:19:09.

has been propogated that there are not proper laws and sanctions that

:19:09.:19:14.

can be prevailed upon that if there is wrongdoing people can be brought

:19:14.:19:17.

to justice. There are market provisions under the Financial

:19:17.:19:23.

Services Act, and a Fraud Act 2006. That is precisely why I'm not

:19:23.:19:26.

surprised that the Serious Fraud Office have been called in to look

:19:26.:19:29.

at this. Where there is criminal wrongdoing, people have to see we

:19:29.:19:34.

are all equal in the eyes of the law. It is no good, somebody in my

:19:34.:19:37.

constituencies, who commits an offence, and steals �50, the strong

:19:37.:19:41.

arm of the law comes down on them and they are banged up. Where you

:19:41.:19:46.

see white collar crime t seemingly goes unpinnished, which is why the

:19:46.:19:48.

criminal investigation of this is an important part of the piece, in

:19:48.:19:53.

addition to having that proper judge-led inquiry into culture.

:19:53.:19:56.

That is where we will go next. Thank you very much. We are heading

:19:56.:20:01.

to the US now. An investigation into the manipulation of LIBOR was

:20:01.:20:05.

opened back in 200, because they suspected the banks weren't -- 2008,

:20:05.:20:10.

because they suspected the banks weren't behaving properly. Our

:20:10.:20:15.

guest is head of the future trading commission which led the operation,

:20:15.:20:20.

and responsible for preventing future fraud of the market. Do you

:20:20.:20:24.

think, are you surprised, this hasn't been pursued in a criminal

:20:24.:20:28.

way? Good to be with you. I think that what is important is this

:20:28.:20:32.

benchmark rate, the mother of all rates in the interest rate markets,

:20:32.:20:35.

be honest and there be ining at thety. What we found at Barclays,

:20:36.:20:42.

working with the F -- integrity. What we found at Barclays working

:20:42.:20:46.

with the FSA and authorities, is it wasn't the case with Barclays, but

:20:47.:20:51.

we all lost in that case, we brought a strong action against

:20:51.:20:57.

Barclays this week and they settled. Why was it down to hold you -- you

:20:58.:21:02.

to hold Barclays to account, it was you who tipped off the FSA here?

:21:02.:21:06.

You are kind, it is the staff at the futures trading commission, not

:21:06.:21:11.

myself as the chairman. We oversee a markets called the futures'

:21:11.:21:17.

market. Many of your viewers might not know us, it is traditionally

:21:17.:21:20.

agriculture markets, futures help hedge the risk of corn and wheat,

:21:20.:21:25.

and also interest rates, we happen to oversee a large market called

:21:25.:21:28.

the euro-dollar market, which is priced to the interests, set in

:21:28.:21:33.

London, called London InterBank offering rate. That is why we got

:21:33.:21:37.

involved several years ago, reached out to the FSA, worked co-

:21:37.:21:41.

operatively with them and brought this joint action. Realistically

:21:41.:21:45.

you would be surprised if Barclays were alone in this, right? Because

:21:45.:21:48.

I don't want to compromise any other enforcement matters, I don't

:21:48.:21:52.

want to go there. I would say that in this matter, we are identified

:21:52.:21:59.

four other banks. We call them bank A, B, C and D, where Barclays

:21:59.:22:05.

attempt today manipulate this rate, reaching out to others, asking --

:22:05.:22:10.

attempted to manipulate this rate, reaching out to others to aid them,

:22:10.:22:15.

and they aided them. They are four British banks? A very good question,

:22:15.:22:20.

but I didn't say. Really I can't compromise the engoing enforcement

:22:20.:22:25.

matters. Let me ask you something a lot -- the on going enforcement

:22:25.:22:28.

matters. Let me ask you something puzzling a lot of people here. What

:22:28.:22:33.

kind of pressure, do you think n the Wild West days of 2008, would a

:22:33.:22:37.

bank come under from Central Bank, from politicians, over something

:22:37.:22:42.

like LIBOR rates would, it surprise you if they had bowed to pressure?

:22:42.:22:47.

I think that Barclays did falsely report the rate, because they were

:22:47.:22:50.

worried about their reputation. That is no excuse for breaking the

:22:50.:22:54.

law. The law is very clear on this side of the ocean, and I'm sure on

:22:54.:22:58.

your side of the ocean. That you're not supposed to falsely report

:22:58.:23:02.

these rates. We all lose out if they do. Even if senior management

:23:02.:23:05.

was thinking some how they were protecting the reputation of the

:23:05.:23:11.

bank. So, in terms of fixing LIBOR, this has global implications, do

:23:11.:23:17.

you think the next step now is criminal prosecution? It does have

:23:17.:23:21.

global implication. Each of us, we might have a car loan, or mortgage

:23:21.:23:26.

that in that fine print might be related to something called a

:23:26.:23:31.

variable rate LIBOR. So it has very far-reaching implications, and we

:23:31.:23:35.

have to make sure the submissions are honest and clean of any

:23:35.:23:42.

attempted manipulation or false reporting.

:23:42.:23:47.

There is not a town, a village or hamlet in which children are not

:23:47.:23:51.

being sexually exploited, the childrens' commissioner said last

:23:51.:23:54.

month. After a Newsnight investigation exposed the problems

:23:54.:23:58.

of children in cautious we heard today what the Government plans to

:23:58.:24:02.

do to protect them and other vulnerable people. I will be asking

:24:02.:24:05.

the childrens minister and the deputy childrens minister f their

:24:05.:24:08.

plans will -- Children's Minister and the Deputy Children's Minister

:24:08.:24:12.

if their plans will make a difference. First we hear the story

:24:12.:24:18.

of a girl who ended up the victim of sexual predators. We have a

:24:18.:24:22.

child reported missing from home, we are going to look for a child

:24:22.:24:28.

missing for four days. 8.00pm in Blackburn, a pioneering police

:24:28.:24:31.

protection team is on the trail of a 14-year-old girl, one of the

:24:31.:24:34.

thousands of children who go missing in Britain every year. One

:24:34.:24:39.

of the main aims to try to safeguard her from the sexual

:24:39.:24:43.

exploitation the Government says is blighting the lives of too many

:24:43.:24:47.

young people. Abows that often involves gangs or groups of men.

:24:47.:24:51.

-- abuse that often involves gangs or groups of men. We are going to

:24:51.:24:54.

an address where we believe a number of parties are held at.

:24:54.:24:58.

Because of the intelligence we have from our interaction with this

:24:58.:25:01.

young girl on previous occasions, we believe she might be attending

:25:01.:25:11.
:25:11.:25:13.

these parties. The intelligence is accurate, they find the girl in the

:25:13.:25:18.

company of two older boys. She is not pleased to be rescued from

:25:18.:25:22.

people she thought were friends. And not pleased she will face more

:25:22.:25:25.

questioning in the days ahead. Police used to target suspected

:25:25.:25:31.

child abusers, and through them, find potential victims. Operation

:25:31.:25:35.

Engage in Blackburn, works the other way round, they follow

:25:35.:25:39.

potential victims, who may lead them to possible abusers, the

:25:39.:25:44.

result is a huge increase in conviction rates. If we can find

:25:44.:25:47.

children vulnerable to sexual exploitation, and deal with them

:25:47.:25:50.

and work with them, we are much more likely to get the information

:25:50.:25:54.

to lead to us the perpetrators. The perpetrators hide from us, the kids

:25:54.:25:58.

less so. Whatever the details of this case, long-term police

:25:58.:26:01.

operations like this one in Blackburn, have helped reveal how

:26:01.:26:05.

many children in Britain are potentially vulnerable to sexual

:26:05.:26:08.

exploitation. But it is a problem that takes many forms, and that's

:26:08.:26:13.

why it is so difficult to tackle. Sexual exploitation involves

:26:13.:26:18.

something offered in return for sexual favours. Sweets, drugs,

:26:18.:26:23.

alcohol, money, or apparent affection. In plain language, it is

:26:23.:26:25.

grooming. The Deputy Children's Commissioner has been told it is

:26:25.:26:30.

happening in every town, village and hamlet in the country.

:26:30.:26:33.

The Children's Society is one of the charities trying to deal with

:26:34.:26:39.

it. One of the key challenges about child exploitation, is the fact

:26:39.:26:42.

that children themselves don't often recognise it. They don't

:26:42.:26:46.

realise they are being manipulated or being exploited, they are being

:26:46.:26:50.

used. Quite often they think they are in control, they think they are

:26:50.:26:55.

the ones making the choices and decisions. Newsnight has seen

:26:55.:26:58.

images too graphic to broadcast, passed around to hundreds of people

:26:58.:27:03.

on a messaging service. Showing girls in their mid-teens performing

:27:03.:27:07.

sex acts on boys of about the same age, some of whom we understand are

:27:07.:27:11.

members of a London gang. The filming and the passing round of

:27:11.:27:16.

such pictures are another form of exploitation that's thought to be

:27:16.:27:20.

not uncommon amongst some young people.

:27:20.:27:25.

Most cases of exploitation involve children living at home. But a

:27:25.:27:29.

disproportionate number of victims, more than one in five, are in care.

:27:29.:27:35.

Some care homes, the Government says, are specifically targeted by

:27:35.:27:38.

abusers. Julie, not her real name, who was in care for four years, and

:27:39.:27:43.

often ran away, now believes that she was one of many similar,

:27:43.:27:49.

willing victims of older men. they just are after sex, aren't

:27:49.:27:55.

they. And they probably just see a young girl and think, ah, she don't

:27:55.:27:58.

live with her mum and dad, because they don't care, and she's in care,

:27:59.:28:03.

of course she's going to come and stay at mine, do you know what I

:28:03.:28:09.

mean. And, and, then they will just get what they want. They pour a bit

:28:09.:28:14.

of alcohol in you and then you are legless. Research published today

:28:14.:28:19.

finds evidence that children in care are sometimes introduced to

:28:19.:28:23.

their abusers by other children, who may themselves be being

:28:23.:28:26.

exploited. Julie had a friend, now she thinks no friend at all, who

:28:26.:28:32.

led her into danger. She was like talking to this lad, they were like

:28:32.:28:36.

friends, or something, but I didn't like him. And I wanted to go home,

:28:36.:28:42.

but because it was late, and then, she was like pulling my arm, you

:28:42.:28:47.

know. Stay out, stay out and stuff. And then because he wanted her to

:28:47.:28:52.

stay out, so I got pulled along any way. They made me sleep or whatever

:28:52.:28:57.

on the wooden floor while they were doing things. What did he try to do

:28:57.:29:04.

to you? Eh, like, well he did do stuff to me, like have sex and

:29:04.:29:09.

stuff. And like he were hitting me and swearing at me and stuff.

:29:09.:29:13.

In an investigation into the care system last month, Newsnight

:29:13.:29:17.

revealed many of the problems the Government is now seeking to solve.

:29:17.:29:21.

Many vulnerable children are actually being exposed to greater

:29:21.:29:24.

danger by the very people supposed to protect them. Councils often

:29:24.:29:29.

send them away from their own areas to places, including some coastal

:29:29.:29:34.

resort, which have cheap property for private care homes, but also a

:29:34.:29:39.

high concentration of sex offenders and prostitution. We find it

:29:39.:29:44.

utterly extraordinary that they would want to send their most

:29:44.:29:47.

vulnerable children to an area with such significant social problems.

:29:47.:29:50.

We think it is irresponsible of them, and cynical. Today the

:29:50.:29:55.

Government announced it would make it harder for councils to send

:29:55.:30:00.

their children away from their home area. It promised to have better

:30:00.:30:05.

data on the number of children in care and missing, saying councils

:30:05.:30:08.

are underestimating the problem. It ordered a review of the quality of

:30:08.:30:12.

care homes T wants police to work heard, like those in Blackburn, to

:30:12.:30:16.

win the trust of victims, and foings victims of abuse. Partly as

:30:16.:30:24.

a means to secure more convictions. Back in the house where they found

:30:24.:30:27.

the missing girl, they are still suspicious about the two 17-year-

:30:27.:30:31.

old lads there. Can I have a look through your pockets for ID.

:30:31.:30:35.

they will be taken to the politician. You are under arrest

:30:35.:30:40.

for child abduction, you do not have to say anything...Later,

:30:40.:30:45.

boys were released without charge. With no evidence of anything

:30:45.:30:48.

untoward having happened. But they were formally warned to have no

:30:49.:30:53.

further contact with the girl. She lives at home, but in other cases,

:30:53.:30:57.

Blackburn Police work closely with care home staff, and the

:30:57.:31:00.

responsible local authority, to try to ensure children run away less.

:31:01.:31:05.

Where we started off at maybe 50% of the children we were dealing

:31:05.:31:09.

with were from children's homes, now we are down to about 8% of the

:31:09.:31:13.

children that we see referrals from being from children's homes. I

:31:13.:31:17.

would say that we have had a dramatic effect on that, and again

:31:17.:31:25.

it all comes down to multientity core location. Better information

:31:25.:31:29.

sharing is at the heart of what the Government wants to do. It will let

:31:29.:31:33.

the inspection agency, Ofsted, tell police the location of care homes.

:31:33.:31:37.

Much depends on councils, which in many cases have cut their youth

:31:37.:31:40.

service, which can't always find local care provision, and which

:31:40.:31:45.

don't always want to acknowledge the danger that children may face

:31:45.:31:48.

for fear they will have to spend more money to tackle it. The moment

:31:48.:31:52.

you accept there is a problem in your area, then you will have to

:31:52.:31:57.

invest some money. You are going to have to invest some time and

:31:57.:32:00.

resources to respond to it, therefore, it is easier to either

:32:00.:32:03.

ignore it or just say, no, we don't have their problem. I think that is

:32:04.:32:08.

the key issue. In Blackburn, police are out most nights, touring the

:32:08.:32:13.

hot spots, where children are exploited. But a problem so

:32:13.:32:18.

widespread, so old, and so hard in some ways to define, won't easily

:32:18.:32:24.

be solved, even by the best- intentioned of authorities.

:32:24.:32:31.

The Children's Minister, Tim Loughton, and the Deputy Children's

:32:31.:32:35.

Minister are here. Tim Loughton, bluntly, this comes down to market

:32:35.:32:41.

forces, tragically. If 76% of children's homes are run for profit,

:32:41.:32:46.

you cannot stop private care homes being set up in place where is

:32:46.:32:50.

accommodation is cheap, can you? but this isn't down to ownership of

:32:50.:32:55.

this form of children's care. What it should be down to is the quality

:32:55.:32:58.

of the care offered, to often very vulnerable children. We have over

:32:58.:33:01.

65,000 people in the care system, through no fault of their own,

:33:01.:33:04.

spread across the country. We don't have children's homes spread across

:33:04.:33:09.

the country, they are in clusters in certain seaside resort,

:33:09.:33:14.

concentrated in the south-east and north-east of England. And 50% of

:33:14.:33:19.

children in those homes come from well out of their area. I don't

:33:19.:33:22.

believe that is the safest place and the best way to look after

:33:22.:33:25.

these children. We understand that, the point is, if these are being

:33:25.:33:29.

run by private companies, which three quarters of them are, you

:33:29.:33:33.

will not get them to invest in areas where the accommodation is

:33:33.:33:37.

more expensive. So they will be in these deeply unsuitable places, how

:33:37.:33:40.

do you stop that? We are paying large amounts of money. A billion

:33:40.:33:44.

pounds is being spent on up to 5,000 children in residential care

:33:44.:33:49.

homes. That is an average of �200,000 a child in each year. That

:33:49.:33:52.

is an awful lot of money. I don't believe we are getting value for

:33:52.:33:55.

money. I believe the homes should come for the children, not the

:33:55.:33:58.

children going to the homes. We should be looking after these

:33:58.:34:01.

children, where they are safest were we can look after them and

:34:01.:34:05.

give them the support they need. That is not by dumping them in

:34:05.:34:10.

coastal resorts hundreds of miles from their homes in too many cases.

:34:10.:34:15.

That is a platitude? It is not. is that message for, for those who

:34:15.:34:20.

open the homes or councils paying for the homes? This is primarily

:34:20.:34:22.

the responsibility of the corporate parents, local authorities,

:34:22.:34:28.

responsible for those 65,500 people in care at the moment. They have

:34:28.:34:31.

the responsibility to make sure those children are safe, and they

:34:31.:34:34.

are getting the best possible care. I don't think they can justifiably

:34:34.:34:37.

say they are looking after those children in the best way if they

:34:37.:34:41.

are dumping them hundreds of miles away from home. Is that your

:34:41.:34:44.

understanding, is it the local authorities to blame for sending

:34:44.:34:49.

them further away? I would completely concur with that. Local

:34:49.:34:52.

authorities are, as the minister said, the corporate parent, the

:34:52.:34:56.

legal parent of children in cautious under particular types of

:34:56.:34:59.

care orders. It is their responsibility to place the

:34:59.:35:02.

children. Local authorities actually have a response, a duty in

:35:02.:35:08.

law, to make sure that they have a sufficiency of places for children

:35:08.:35:12.

in care, within their local authority area. What we know is

:35:12.:35:16.

there are some local authorities that have no residential care homes

:35:16.:35:19.

within their areas and they export all their children outside. There

:35:19.:35:23.

are others, interestingly enough, that do have their own residential

:35:23.:35:28.

care homes and they still export their children, so it is quite an

:35:28.:35:31.

interesting phenomenon. Debbie Jones, the President of the

:35:31.:35:35.

Associations of children and directors services, say there are

:35:35.:35:39.

good reasons to place a child away from home, even when they are at

:35:39.:35:43.

risk. Is that overused, do you think that response is overused?

:35:43.:35:48.

is overused. What I would say, and I know this from years and years of

:35:48.:35:51.

experience, and now from talking to children, who have experience of

:35:51.:35:57.

being sexually exploited, is that too often children are placed in

:35:57.:36:02.

homes as a matter of expeedcy. One of the 11 recommendations we have

:36:02.:36:07.

made today, and this is not rocket science, every child who is placed

:36:07.:36:11.

in care home, indeed whether it is foster home or residential home,

:36:11.:36:16.

needs to have a proper assessment before they are placed. It is not

:36:16.:36:20.

about making generalised at the same times about where children are

:36:20.:36:23.

placed. The important thing is that each individual child is in the

:36:23.:36:27.

right place for that child. And Tim Loughton, you have made some

:36:27.:36:30.

changes that will come in immediately, which allows the data

:36:30.:36:35.

to be shared between Ofsted and police and all the rest of it. If

:36:35.:36:39.

Ofsted now finds these places unsuitable, because it has the data

:36:39.:36:44.

at its fingertips, it will close these places down? We have changed

:36:44.:36:47.

the way Ofsted inspect children's homes. And stopped any more

:36:47.:36:50.

children being placed in homes thought to be unsuitable? Ofsted

:36:50.:36:54.

have the power to close down children's homes f they inspect and

:36:54.:36:58.

fail and can't get their act together they will not take

:36:59.:37:02.

children. Will children's homes shut as a result of these measures?

:37:02.:37:05.

I don't know, we have changed the way we inspect children's homes as

:37:05.:37:09.

of April. Only 2% of children's homes inspected were deemed to be

:37:09.:37:12.

failing. I don't believe that figure, I think we have a lot of

:37:12.:37:18.

very good children's homes, but we have a lot of inadequate ones. The

:37:18.:37:21.

anecdotal evidence through the changes we have made through Ofsted

:37:21.:37:25.

is a greater number of homes will be found lacking. They need to get

:37:25.:37:29.

their act together quickly. Found lacking and shut down? If they

:37:29.:37:32.

don't get their act together they will close down or local

:37:32.:37:34.

authorities will not place their children there, they should find a

:37:34.:37:38.

better, more suitable, loving, caring place for those vulnerable

:37:38.:37:44.

children. It is up to the corporate parent to take that decision now.

:37:44.:37:47.

The wider cultural implication of what you have said recently, is

:37:47.:37:52.

there isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children aren't

:37:52.:37:58.

being exploited. Do you think this is getting worse? Firstly, let me

:37:58.:38:03.

say that statement was given to me by a police officer, who had

:38:03.:38:07.

undertaken a major investigation in his area. Those were his findings,

:38:07.:38:10.

that I was reporting on. He was doing further investigations. What

:38:10.:38:18.

I have depound, and we haven't -- found and we haven't yet concluded

:38:18.:38:21.

all our data analysis, what you have found from the data gathered

:38:21.:38:24.

already, is children are being sexually exploited all over the

:38:24.:38:30.

country, in rural, urban and metropolitan areas, from people of

:38:30.:38:35.

all kinds of different backgrounds, victims from all different kinds of

:38:35.:38:39.

backgrounds and the abusers too. know from the technology that there

:38:39.:38:44.

is a sense that more material is out there? That's right. Is that a

:38:44.:38:49.

fallacy? No, it is absolutely accurate. Again, what we are

:38:49.:38:53.

finding is, you saw on the film clip you showed, young boys,

:38:53.:38:57.

sexually abusing and exploiting other girls. We are finding boys as

:38:57.:39:03.

young as 14 and 15 as well as much older men, sometimes women but

:39:03.:39:06.

largely males, being fuelled by violent pornography and the use of

:39:06.:39:13.

social networking sites. And after that the high-profile Rochdale case,

:39:13.:39:16.

and the question of whether race is a legitimate issue in this case.

:39:17.:39:20.

Are you concerned that political correctness is hampering whether

:39:20.:39:24.

you can get to the bottom of that? I think it has in the past, there

:39:24.:39:29.

is no good denying it. We have had high-profile cases involving

:39:30.:39:33.

British Pakistani men in particular, taking advantage of white teenage

:39:33.:39:37.

girls. I can take you to other parts of the country where we have

:39:37.:39:40.

white middle-aged men exploiting, grooming young girls and boys as

:39:40.:39:45.

well. It is horses for courses, these are all serious sexual abuse

:39:45.:39:48.

crimes against children. Ghastly crimes, and I want the police and

:39:48.:39:51.

other agencies, to have the right and most appropriate tools, to

:39:51.:39:55.

clamp down on these perpetrators and bring them to justice, wherever

:39:55.:39:58.

and however they are carrying out this practice. If political

:39:58.:40:02.

correctness is getting in the way of looking into this, it has to go.

:40:02.:40:06.

They have slapped each other, spat at each other and called each other

:40:06.:40:09.

names, this month David Haye and Dereck Chisora, both unlicensed

:40:09.:40:13.

boxers, who in Britain, will meet in a fight that is promoted as the

:40:13.:40:16.

boxing clash of the year. Not arguably for the quality of the

:40:16.:40:24.

boxing, but the level of the an no sirity between the two men. What --

:40:25.:40:27.

an mossity between -- animosity between the two men. We will

:40:27.:40:31.

discuss that with our guests in a moment. First w flash photography

:40:31.:40:38.

in the report, it is Peter Marshall. In the eyes of the sports

:40:38.:40:43.

authorities, and of many who loathe boxing, Dereck Chisora shouldn't be

:40:43.:40:47.

allowed near the ring. Mind you, his best-known fight wasn't in the

:40:47.:40:50.

ring, it was at a news conference, after his latest boxing defeat,

:40:50.:40:58.

when he fell out with another failing British boxer, David Haye.

:40:58.:41:06.

And now, empties well aired, and despite the fact that neither has a

:41:06.:41:12.

British boxing license, Haye and Chisora are to fight without gloves

:41:12.:41:16.

before crowds. For purists it is a new low for sport, attracting only

:41:16.:41:22.

the interest of ghouls, but the Chisora-Haye fight promised to make

:41:22.:41:27.

more money than any boxing match this year. Is it another death

:41:27.:41:34.

knell moment for boxing as a legitimate sport. Do you want me to

:41:34.:41:41.

not fight, what do you want me to do hang up my gloves, why look for

:41:41.:41:45.

another job. Many will say a period of penance is appropriate because

:41:45.:41:49.

of behaviour in the past? You know what, I came out doing 12 rounds,

:41:49.:41:53.

and I was already doing a press conference, you know, in less than

:41:53.:41:57.

20 minutes after my adrenaline pumping, everything happening,

:41:57.:42:02.

moving at 100 miles an hour. So certain things were said on that

:42:02.:42:07.

night. You said you were going to shoot him four times? I did, I hold

:42:08.:42:14.

my hand up and I apologise, I have never owned and gun and never will.

:42:14.:42:18.

I never shot anybody and I apologise. Dereck Chisora is

:42:18.:42:22.

personable, but armed or not he has a dreadful record, he has been

:42:22.:42:26.

known to bite and spit, not only at his opponents, he has convictions

:42:26.:42:30.

for violence. Maybe it is because of that, his fight with Haye will

:42:30.:42:37.

attract a big audience on hand and on pay TV. As a fighter you have

:42:37.:42:40.

lost two championship fights on the run, this is a big pay day? They

:42:40.:42:46.

are all big pay days, I never get small pay day, me and my big mouth

:42:46.:42:51.

get big pay days. That is the trick, you use your mouth and get it?

:42:51.:42:56.

Muhammed Ali uses his mouth and one of the greatest athletes now, why

:42:56.:42:59.

not follow in the footsteps of the man I love. A business model?

:42:59.:43:04.

Exactly. Muhammed Ali changed everything.

:43:04.:43:08.

Here he is pumping up the publicity with Joe Bugner. But Ali had

:43:08.:43:15.

something to sell. He really was the greatest.

:43:15.:43:19.

The Haye-Chisora fight is a reflection of the changing nature

:43:19.:43:24.

of professional boxing. Since the hey day of Muhammed Ali, it has

:43:24.:43:27.

become ever further removed from the sporting mainstream. What

:43:27.:43:31.

happened to professional boxing? Money has driven that. TV companies

:43:31.:43:35.

who supply the most money, don't deal with the sport as in, they

:43:36.:43:40.

would, in other sports. TV deals with the Premier League, or FIFA in

:43:40.:43:45.

football, in boxing they deal with the promoter and the boxer.

:43:45.:43:47.

Everyone wants to stage championship fights, so they

:43:48.:43:52.

arrange different championships? You can essentially buy belts to go

:43:52.:43:56.

with your fights. The British Boxing Board of Control who have

:43:56.:43:59.

declared Chisora unfit to fight, are the latest to see their

:43:59.:44:04.

authority undermined. If someone told you you were not

:44:04.:44:11.

fit. They even if psychologically fit? Do I look crazy at all.

:44:11.:44:16.

behave in a crazy way sometimes? you look crazy, since you walked

:44:16.:44:22.

into my gym, do I look crazy? but you can be crazy without

:44:22.:44:30.

looking crazy? Who knows, Ahhhhh! So he is amusing company, but the

:44:30.:44:35.

British Boxing Board of Control aren't in any mood for laughs. I

:44:35.:44:38.

didn't flinch! You didn't flinch, great one.

:44:38.:44:42.

Frank Warren who is Dereck Chisora's manager, and Robert Smith,

:44:43.:44:45.

from the British Boxing Board of Control. They have never debated

:44:45.:44:48.

each other before, but they join us this evening. Thank you General

:44:49.:44:52.

gentlemen for coming in. Frank Warren, you heard it there, it is

:44:52.:44:56.

just a business model, isn't it, it is way of making cash, morality is

:44:56.:45:00.

out the window on this one? First of all, they are professional

:45:00.:45:06.

boxers, boxing for unM as regards to morality, I can think of lots of

:45:06.:45:10.

sportsmen over the years who problems. Eric Cantona, assaulted a

:45:10.:45:18.

fan, yet BBC and other TV companies showed his matches. You can look at,

:45:18.:45:22.

only recently, you are talking about morality of things, Formula

:45:22.:45:26.

One in Bahrain, BBC covered t after all the terrible problems, 50

:45:26.:45:29.

people died in Bahrain. Your point is these guys are completely wrong

:45:30.:45:36.

to try to stop it? You say try to stop it t they had a hearing which

:45:36.:45:40.

the prosecutor, judge and jury at the British Boxing Board of Control,

:45:40.:45:44.

they took away Dereck Chisora's license. It was said at the boxing

:45:44.:45:47.

board of control at the time, because the question was asked, if

:45:47.:45:50.

it goes to another jurisdiction, that's what he can do, and he's

:45:50.:45:54.

allowed to do it. That is what he has done. This is not about Dereck

:45:54.:45:58.

Chisora and David Haye, contrary to what the boxing board say. It is

:45:58.:46:03.

about another governing body coming into this country to sanction

:46:03.:46:08.

fights. Everybody should remember that the British Boxing Board of

:46:08.:46:12.

Control is, in fact, a limited company, it is not a Government

:46:12.:46:15.

department, it is a limited company. For a boxing organisation, you

:46:15.:46:19.

haven't much punch? It is a shame you haven't shown the whole events

:46:19.:46:24.

leading up to Mr Chisora having his license withdrawn. It was a weekend

:46:24.:46:27.

disastrous for the sport. He slapped man, his opponent, on the

:46:27.:46:34.

way in. He spat a stream of water at his opponent's brother previous

:46:34.:46:38.

to a fight. He ended the weekend with brawl at a press conference.

:46:38.:46:43.

These sort of events don't do the sport any good whatsoever, not just

:46:43.:46:48.

in Great Britain, but elsewhere around the world as well. This

:46:48.:46:54.

happened where we are happy to send licensed boxers over.

:46:54.:46:58.

It doesn't work you take away their licenses and Luxembourg steps in?

:46:58.:47:08.

For the majority it works, most of the people we work with are good

:47:08.:47:12.

people. The Sports Minister said the events that took place were

:47:12.:47:16.

disgusting. We have to deal with that. We have a system where the

:47:16.:47:20.

hearing took place, he had his license withdrawn. That means he

:47:20.:47:26.

was ultimately banned from boxing until he reapplied again in our

:47:26.:47:30.

jurisdiction. He had an opportunity to appeal that decision and he

:47:30.:47:34.

withdrew. Do you admit there would be much less interest in this, if

:47:35.:47:40.

there wasn't the loathing and animosity about the fight? There

:47:40.:47:43.

was talk of the fight in Germany getting out of the control. It gave

:47:43.:47:48.

it some publicity. Which you welcome? I don't welcome what

:47:48.:47:51.

happened in Germany, but it did happen, you won't change history,

:47:51.:47:55.

that is what occurred. But, how long is Dereck Chisora not allowed

:47:55.:47:59.

to box. He's not banned from boxing, you are wrong with what you said,

:47:59.:48:03.

he was not banned from boxing, you withdrew his license. He's allowed

:48:03.:48:08.

to box in this country, it is legal. The Sports Minister, you are

:48:08.:48:10.

misleading there, the Sports Minister said he doesn't want to

:48:10.:48:14.

get involved in that situation. You wrote to the Sports Minister, and

:48:14.:48:20.

he said it clear publicly he doesn't want want to get involved.

:48:20.:48:24.

The Sports Minister said the actions of what happened at the

:48:24.:48:26.

weekend was wrong. And since then he doesn't want to be involved in

:48:26.:48:31.

it. He has gone on record saying that. As simple as that. When we

:48:31.:48:35.

talk about license with people, it is within our jurisdiction, when a

:48:35.:48:40.

boxer has his license withdrawn, that is the ultimate sanction to

:48:40.:48:43.

have the license withdrawn, it is ban until he reapplies for the

:48:43.:48:46.

license. Dereck Chisora, as you asked the question at the hearing,

:48:46.:48:51.

could he reapply for his license, the answer was yes. A ban is very

:48:51.:48:55.

simple. Doesn't it make you think, when you are two miles from the

:48:55.:48:59.

Olympic stadium, a month before the Olympics, you have got this on your

:48:59.:49:03.

plate to have to say, this is what boxing is about, this is what our

:49:03.:49:07.

sport is about? These are professional boxers, it is

:49:07.:49:11.

misleading to say he was banned, when you ban someone you said six

:49:12.:49:16.

months or 12 months. That didn't happen, he's not banned, he's free

:49:16.:49:19.

and licensed to box. The fight has been sanctioned by three

:49:19.:49:22.

association, the British boxing forward of control. You have no

:49:22.:49:27.

power over this at all? What has happened is the boxing board of

:49:27.:49:33.

control are totally mishandling it. We talked about this many times,

:49:33.:49:35.

the British boxing board have made their decision. What is happening

:49:35.:49:40.

is people have made a decision to circumvent the board's decision

:49:40.:49:44.

with regard to withdrawing his license. We govern the sport in

:49:44.:49:47.

this country, we have to look after the reputation of boxing in Great

:49:47.:49:50.

Britain. We do not feel what has happened is the right thing to

:49:50.:49:54.

happen. The board of control made a mess of the whole thing. We will

:49:54.:50:04.
:50:04.:50:31.

take you briefly through the front That's all from Newsnight tonight,

:50:31.:50:35.

Jeremy is here tomorrow with news from their appearance, and a

:50:35.:50:37.

special studio debate about old people's place in society. From all

:50:38.:50:47.
:50:48.:50:51.

of us here, good night. A damp night outside, a warm and humid one

:50:51.:50:56.

as well. So we start tomorrow morning with a lot of moisture

:50:56.:50:59.

across the country. It is a dull, grey start, some sunny spells

:50:59.:51:03.

across northern Scotland. Brighter across parts of eastern England,

:51:03.:51:07.

sunshine here. The likelihood of heavy showers developing over parts

:51:07.:51:11.

of North West England and the Midlands. East Anglia and the

:51:11.:51:15.

south-east seeing a shower or two, some sunny spells developing, and

:51:15.:51:22.

feeling humid. A fresher feel across Kevin and Cornwall after a

:51:22.:51:27.

fresher start. Western tarts -- Devon and Cornwall after a fresher

:51:27.:51:30.

start. North Wales staying grey with further outbreaks of rain.

:51:30.:51:33.

Northern Ireland starts damp, brighter here too, some sunny

:51:33.:51:40.

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