Browse content similar to 03/07/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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How much is a diamond worth, Barclays chief executive goes, | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
their chairman returns, and the sticky questions, it seems, keep | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
coming. The men who eased out Diamond | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
overnight, from the Bank of England, and the FSA, were around at the | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
time when Barclays and other banks were fiddling The Libertines rate. | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
There is growing evidence that somebody, somewhere -- the LIBOR | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
rate. There is growing evidence that somebody, somewhere, senior, | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
knew about it. And the row about who was told what | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
and when at Whitehall. A former hedge fund manager and a | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
minister will talk about who will be brought into the fray next. | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
Also tonight: After Newsnight revealed the scale | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
of the problem with sexual exploitation of children in care | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
homes, we ask the Children's Minister if his new proposals will | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
really improve these lives. They probably see a young girl, and | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
think, ah, she don't live with her mum and dad, because they don't | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
care, and she's in cautious of course she can come stay at mine. | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
Then they will just get what they want. They loathe each other | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
outside the ring, now they will fight for the first time inside T | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
how come David Haye and Dereck Chisora can fight in London, | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
without even having a British license. Do I look crazy to you, | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
since you walked in the gym, do I look crazy. REPORTER: No, but you | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
can be crazy without looking crazy? Who knows. Ahhh! The fight's | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
promoter, Frank Warren, is here to Duke it out with the General | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
Secretary of the British board of boxing control in their first-ever | :01:42. | :01:52. | |
:01:52. | :01:53. | ||
bout. Good evening, it is our business to know your business, | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
rang the old Barclays slogan, today their business is pretty confused. | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
This morning, the man about to quit at chairman, reappointed himself, | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
whilst the man who insisted he wasn't quitting, quit. | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
An explosive account of conversations with the Bank of | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
England over LIBOR rates in 2008 come out. How much were their | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
actions motivated by what they thought Whitehall insiders and the | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
Central Bank were encouraging them to do. If he's attacked, he will | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
fight back, with those words, Bob Diamond's friends signalled to the | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
media he was prepared to take down politicians and regulators in the | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
fight to stay boss of Barclays. But this morning, London's financial | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
centre woke to the news there was a man overboard, pushed by the | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
regulator and the Central Bank. Diamond had resigned. The past 24 | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
hours have seen the British financial establishment in state of | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
disarray. The men who "eased" out Bob Diamond, from the Bank of | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
England, and the FSA, were around at the time when Barclays, and | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
other banks,were fiddling the LIBOR rate. And today, Barclays provided | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
evidence that somebody, somewhere, seen senior, knew about it. | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
-- senior, knew about it. It was in October 2008, with the | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
City still reeling from the Lehman Brothers crisis, LIBOR, the bank | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
lending rate, was a key barometer for the rate of lending for banks, | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
and for Barclays it was too high, consistently, signalling the bank | :03:27. | :03:34. | |
could be in trouble. This man called Bob Diamond, after this man, | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
Jerry Del Missier, instructed staff to fiddle the interest rate, | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
believing he was acting on the orders of the Central Bank. The | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
staff reluctantly complied, one said, they will not be posting | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
honest prices. We were proudly one of the most | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
sensitive countries in the world to LIBOR funding. So it was very keen | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
for the Bank of England, the Treasury, everybody in the banking | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
community, to see, that LIBOR, which was spiking up at that time, | :04:02. | :04:10. | |
to be managed down, or to be get down as quickly as possible. What | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
we are seeing is some people some what bent the rules to imply it was | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
getting down faster than it really Today, Barclays submitted a note of | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
the Tucker phone call, suggesting the rate had been fiddled, | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
downwards, under political pressure from senior figures in Whitehall. | :04:27. | :04:37. | |
:04:37. | :04:47. | ||
There was a public interest in keeping the banks in business, and | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
that coincided with Barclays' private interest in loi-balling its | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
estimate -- low-balling its estimates on the interest rates, | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
because it made Barclays look more credible in the markets. Yes there | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
is kind of a public interest defence of all of this. But I think | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
this needs to be set in the larger context of elites having made | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
massive errors of judgment, before and after the financial crisis. | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
Afterall, the regulatory and the political elites, co-promoted this | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
dodgy investment banking before 2008. | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
Baroness Videra, Gordon Brown's City fixer at the time, said she | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
had no recollections of any conversations with Paul Tucker | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
about LIBOR. Alistair Darling too has denied it was him. But if a | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
politician did pressure the bank to pressure Barclays to rig the market, | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
it is not, say the experts, a victimless crime. This doesn't | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
excuse the fact that this is a global benchmark that is trusted | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
worldwide to be accurate. I understand there might be a reason | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
for banks not to look like they are riskier than their peers, but that | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
doesn't mean you can go and suggest that something should be change. | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
There are a lot of innocent companies, trading firms, pension | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
funds that relied on this rate to be accurate. That is a complete | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
breakdown in the trust system in the financial markets. With Bob | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
Diamond gone, the chairman, Marcus Agius, quickly had to unsack | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
himself. At Canary Wharf, at Barclays and across the finance | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
industry, they are braced for prosecutions, more banks to be | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
fined, some class action that is could cost billions. Business | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
experts are calling for a Leveson- style investigation, felt | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
strengthened by today's investigations. There is a contest, | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
isn't there, between those that want to see what has gone wrong as | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
a narrow, technical problem to do with the culture of the trading | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
room. Those of us who see it as a power elite problem, and the more | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
that comes out, the more it appears to be a power elite problem, about | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
the cosy relations between political, regulatory and financial | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
elites, which lead to misjudgments of the public interest. Now, that | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
kind of problem is only ameanable to a judicial inquiry, with a QC | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
asking the questions. The future of Barclays matters, it | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
is one of the biggest lenders to British business, but it is also a | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
giant global investment bank w more than a �1 trillion of debt. The | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
Diamond years have not been so kind to the domestic part of Barclays | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
market. Four years ago Barclays' was lending �52 billion to non- | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
financial and non-property businesses in the UK. 27% of all | :07:36. | :07:43. | |
loans. Now the figure is just �38 billion, and just 16% of business | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
loans. For Barclays' board, without Bob Diamond, they have got to think | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
about, one, whether they can find someone to run an investment bank | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
this size, that they will have a lot of confidence in. As well as, | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
do they really want to have an investment bank this size at all. | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
That debate must be going on right now in a very heated sense, trying | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
to figure out what is the strategy of Barclays going forward. | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
Diamond built his career, and personal fortune, by taking high | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
risks with other people's money. Some how, he failed to spot at the | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
very core of Barclays, a culture of contempt for principle, and for the | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
rules. But so did the regulators, and so did the politicians. | :08:27. | :08:34. | |
We will find out more tomorrow. Once again, it seems the political | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
establishment is being called into question, who knew what, when, and | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
what was the chain of command, were there winks and nods from the | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
Treasury and the ministers at the time the LIBOR rate was being fixed | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
between 2006-2009. Our political editor is here. It was interesting | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
to hear the phrase used, "a power elite problem", how do you see | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
this? The Government will be relieved it is not the political | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
establishment, it is the Labour establishment, just for today, 24 | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
hours ahead of Bob Diamond's appearance, you have the spotlight | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
thrown on the 2005 Labour cohort people inside the Treasury. Those | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
civil servants inside the Treasury said it isn't about Alistair | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
Darling, from whom we had hasty denial, that this is anything he | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
would dream of doing, it is something people call the Brownite | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
Treasury opposition. In power he was also trying to run the Treasury | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
through people like Baroness Videra, we had a denial from her and Ed | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
Balls, a denial from him. 9 current -- the current Government is happy, | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
it shows it is a political fight t goes to the heart of politics at | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
the moment. It is not just about the banking scandal but who can be | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
trusted with the City and the public finances. And pretty | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
frenetic briefing from both the Government and Labour. You feel | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
that today the Government had the better day of it? This evening we | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
have seen the Lords. It seems technical this issue of what sort | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
of inquiry, should it be a judicial one, which is what Labour wants o | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
should it be this narrower one which, is a parliamentary one. | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
Tonight the Lords voted for the parliamentary one. So the | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
Government ostensibly the better day. There are a series of reasons | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
why they should be worried, people on the select committees, Tories | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
saying even if it is a parliamentary inquiry, it will go | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
on and on, longer than December, which is the deadline the | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
Government wants it to report by t will probably end up having to call | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
many more leaders of banks, probably the Bank of England | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
governor. It won't, in the limited form the Government wants it to be, | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
it won't be small beer. So, one down, you might say, but | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
how many more to go? We know that the FSA investigations are on going, | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
and up to maybe 20 other banks might anybody the spotlight. With | :10:51. | :10:59. | |
us here to discuss further the former Chancellor, niejgel, now | :10:59. | :11:07. | |
Lord Lawson, David Yarrow and Chuka Umunna our other guests. | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
What do you think was happening between the bank and the Bank of | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
England, is it conceivable that Barclays was some how nudged into a | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
position they wouldn't have otherwise taken? I think it is | :11:17. | :11:24. | |
important, first of all, to realise that there are two Separate | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
episodes. As we know from the FSA inquiry, this thing started at | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
least in 2005. This was going on for some time, before the financial | :11:33. | :11:43. | |
:11:43. | :11:45. | ||
crisis, before the events of 2008, before this telephone call between | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
Barclays' Diamond and Paul Tucker, the deputy Governor of the Bank of | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
England. During that period it was entirely a matter of Barclays and | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
the banks, traders. No-one bank can fix the LIBOR rate on its own t | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
requires collusion, and a number. - It requires collusion and a | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
number. What they were doing was for private gain, clearly, it was | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
totally disreputable. There is no breath of a public interest defence | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
at that stage. That was what it was going on for time. There is in this | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
later stage, when I think it was wholly impror to fiddle t but you | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
can mount a public interest defence. We understand there was | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
correspondence between the Bank of England, normal, and Barclays, some | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
how Barclays took away the message, or said that they z that they had | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
received encouragement, or a suggestion they could maybe keep | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
the rates lower, is that conceivable? We don't know if that | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
happened or not. I think the hearing tomorrow will be quite | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
prorpbt, when Bob Diamond appears - - important, when Bob Diamond | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
appears before the select committee, chaired by a very important man, | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
Andrew Tyrie, he used to be my special adviser when I was | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
Chancellor, he will want to get to the bottom of this. One of the | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
areas you may be assured is what exactly transpired in the course | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
pond dense and the telephone conversation between -- telephone | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
conversation between Paul Tucker and Bob Diamond. Chuka Umunna, | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
Baroness Videra has been dragged into this, she denies any | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
involvement. She wrote that document entitled "Getting LIBOR | :13:29. | :13:37. | |
down: Getting LIBOR Down is Desirable". Has she anything to do | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
with it? She denies it. If you look at the memo it refers to a | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
Whitehall source t isn't specific. This does have the whiff of mud | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
slinging. It will be interesting to see what exactly Mr Diamond says | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
about this memo tomorrow, because obviously that needs to be cleared | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
up. What exactly does it refer to. I think secondly, also, the | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
position of the Bank of England, I think this is a very serious matter | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
and needs to be cleared up as soon as possible. I think Mr Tucker, | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
obviously, the sooner he comes before the Treasury Select | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
Committee, in relation to their on going hearings on this matter, the | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
better. Let me ask you your gut feeling, the same question, is it | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
inconceivable that a Labour minister or adviser, would he exert | :14:23. | :14:31. | |
pressure on a -- bank to do that type of thing? I would find that | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
quite remarkable. Take out the word "misreport", and say we would | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
understand it would be important for you to lower the rates. If | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
there was some kind of nudge or wink to that I allowed them to | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
think it was OK, could that conceivably happen? I can't see | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
that happening myself. It is one thing to want to see the cost of | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
borrowing reduced for businesses, it is an on going issue for them | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
now, it is quite another to encourage misreporting and | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
deceitful behaviour. I would be very surprised if anyone from the | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
Treasury or the Bank of England were involved. You are right in the | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
middle of this industry, David Yarrow, what do you think could | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
have happened there? It is all supposition, as Lord Lawson says. I | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
think we will know an awful lot more tomorrow. Time Diamond, I | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
think maybe has slightly more moral sovereignty, in very small levels, | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
than he had maybe 24 hours ago. He clearly is no fool. I would | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
imagine's going to go in there all guns blazing tomorrow. You think | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
this is revenge? I don't know about that, and that's, I wouldn't want | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
to couch it in those terms. Let's not forget the summer of 2008 was | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
the Wild West, markets were broken. Whatever happened with regard to | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
LIBOR submission, some people gained, borrowings gained, maybe | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
lenders lost, it was the Wild West and markets were very broken. | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
saying it was the Wild West, do you condone or sympathise, to an extent, | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
with a process that was probably going on at the time? Absolutely | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
not. You will not get me either to come here and be an apologyist for | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
what has gone done. Never in my time of 25 years in banking, has | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
the self-esteem of the collective I work for been lower, sensitivity is | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
never an word associated with bankers, but now people are very | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
aware why people in the street have total contempt. I don't know if | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
Vince Cable could have used the word cesspit, but I can understand | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
him using that word. You say that Bob Diamond and Barclays couldn't | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
have done this on their own, we will see other banks in the same | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
position as Barclays, once the FSA has finished their inquiry? That is | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
bound to happen. Barclays are in the frame, largely, because they | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
were the first to settle. And the first to fess up, as it were. They | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
weren't alone in this. That doesn't make any better. But there is much | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
more to be known. Let me say anything about the City of London, | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
which is a world class financial centre, there are not all that many | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
major industries in which this country is world class. It is a | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
world class financial centre, long may be it remain so. And it is not | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
just British banks who are involved in this, there are foreign banks in | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
London involved in this, and there the standard of ethics, I'm afraid | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
to saying, on Wall Street, is probably even lower than in the | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
City of London. That is a very key point, actually. This isn't just a | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
case of indulging in another bout of banker bashing. I think Lord | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
Lawson make as good point there about, we have one of the global | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
financial services sectors here. But if it is to endure, it has got | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
to demonstrate that those qualities of integrity, honesty, which, of | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
course, form part of how the City came into being, over a couple of | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
centuries, are still there. So there is a much bigger public | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
interest here. Very directly, let's imagine that ten more banks get | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
found out to have colluded in this type of operation. If ten more | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
chief executives had to leave, would that be a good thing, would | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
we be in a better place at the end of that? I don't think this is | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
about individual scalps, this is why we have been calling for a | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
commission to actually look at the culture, and the practices in the | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
financial services sector. What doesn't wash is this notion that | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
some how this was just a few bad eggs, a tiny minority. This is a | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
cultural problem. If you look at Barclays' case, yesterday they were | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
fined �59 million by the FSA for the attempted rigging of LIBOR, but | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
they have also sustained fines of over �11 million over the past | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
three years, for failing to make proper reports to the FSA and | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
failing to properly separate out their monies from client monies. | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
There was a particular situation there, but from the point of view | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
of the public, one important point to get acorrection a complete myth | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
has been propogated that there are not proper laws and sanctions that | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
can be prevailed upon that if there is wrongdoing people can be brought | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
to justice. There are market provisions under the Financial | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
Services Act, and a Fraud Act 2006. That is precisely why I'm not | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
surprised that the Serious Fraud Office have been called in to look | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
at this. Where there is criminal wrongdoing, people have to see we | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
are all equal in the eyes of the law. It is no good, somebody in my | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
constituencies, who commits an offence, and steals �50, the strong | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
arm of the law comes down on them and they are banged up. Where you | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
see white collar crime t seemingly goes unpinnished, which is why the | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
criminal investigation of this is an important part of the piece, in | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
addition to having that proper judge-led inquiry into culture. | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
That is where we will go next. Thank you very much. We are heading | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
to the US now. An investigation into the manipulation of LIBOR was | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
opened back in 200, because they suspected the banks weren't -- 2008, | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
because they suspected the banks weren't behaving properly. Our | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
guest is head of the future trading commission which led the operation, | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
and responsible for preventing future fraud of the market. Do you | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
think, are you surprised, this hasn't been pursued in a criminal | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
way? Good to be with you. I think that what is important is this | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
benchmark rate, the mother of all rates in the interest rate markets, | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
be honest and there be ining at thety. What we found at Barclays, | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
working with the F -- integrity. What we found at Barclays working | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
with the FSA and authorities, is it wasn't the case with Barclays, but | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
we all lost in that case, we brought a strong action against | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
Barclays this week and they settled. Why was it down to hold you -- you | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
to hold Barclays to account, it was you who tipped off the FSA here? | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
You are kind, it is the staff at the futures trading commission, not | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
myself as the chairman. We oversee a markets called the futures' | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
market. Many of your viewers might not know us, it is traditionally | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
agriculture markets, futures help hedge the risk of corn and wheat, | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
and also interest rates, we happen to oversee a large market called | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
the euro-dollar market, which is priced to the interests, set in | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
London, called London InterBank offering rate. That is why we got | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
involved several years ago, reached out to the FSA, worked co- | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
operatively with them and brought this joint action. Realistically | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
you would be surprised if Barclays were alone in this, right? Because | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
I don't want to compromise any other enforcement matters, I don't | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
want to go there. I would say that in this matter, we are identified | :21:52. | :21:59. | |
four other banks. We call them bank A, B, C and D, where Barclays | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
attempt today manipulate this rate, reaching out to others, asking -- | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
attempted to manipulate this rate, reaching out to others to aid them, | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
and they aided them. They are four British banks? A very good question, | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
but I didn't say. Really I can't compromise the engoing enforcement | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
matters. Let me ask you something a lot -- the on going enforcement | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
matters. Let me ask you something puzzling a lot of people here. What | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
kind of pressure, do you think n the Wild West days of 2008, would a | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
bank come under from Central Bank, from politicians, over something | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
like LIBOR rates would, it surprise you if they had bowed to pressure? | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
I think that Barclays did falsely report the rate, because they were | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
worried about their reputation. That is no excuse for breaking the | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
law. The law is very clear on this side of the ocean, and I'm sure on | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
your side of the ocean. That you're not supposed to falsely report | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
these rates. We all lose out if they do. Even if senior management | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
was thinking some how they were protecting the reputation of the | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
bank. So, in terms of fixing LIBOR, this has global implications, do | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
you think the next step now is criminal prosecution? It does have | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
global implication. Each of us, we might have a car loan, or mortgage | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
that in that fine print might be related to something called a | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
variable rate LIBOR. So it has very far-reaching implications, and we | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
have to make sure the submissions are honest and clean of any | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
attempted manipulation or false reporting. | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
There is not a town, a village or hamlet in which children are not | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
being sexually exploited, the childrens' commissioner said last | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
month. After a Newsnight investigation exposed the problems | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
of children in cautious we heard today what the Government plans to | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
do to protect them and other vulnerable people. I will be asking | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
the childrens minister and the deputy childrens minister f their | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
plans will -- Children's Minister and the Deputy Children's Minister | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
if their plans will make a difference. First we hear the story | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
of a girl who ended up the victim of sexual predators. We have a | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
child reported missing from home, we are going to look for a child | :24:22. | :24:28. | |
missing for four days. 8.00pm in Blackburn, a pioneering police | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
protection team is on the trail of a 14-year-old girl, one of the | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
thousands of children who go missing in Britain every year. One | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
of the main aims to try to safeguard her from the sexual | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
exploitation the Government says is blighting the lives of too many | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
young people. Abows that often involves gangs or groups of men. | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
-- abuse that often involves gangs or groups of men. We are going to | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
an address where we believe a number of parties are held at. | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
Because of the intelligence we have from our interaction with this | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
young girl on previous occasions, we believe she might be attending | :25:01. | :25:11. | |
:25:11. | :25:13. | ||
these parties. The intelligence is accurate, they find the girl in the | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
company of two older boys. She is not pleased to be rescued from | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
people she thought were friends. And not pleased she will face more | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
questioning in the days ahead. Police used to target suspected | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
child abusers, and through them, find potential victims. Operation | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
Engage in Blackburn, works the other way round, they follow | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
potential victims, who may lead them to possible abusers, the | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
result is a huge increase in conviction rates. If we can find | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
children vulnerable to sexual exploitation, and deal with them | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
and work with them, we are much more likely to get the information | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
to lead to us the perpetrators. The perpetrators hide from us, the kids | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
less so. Whatever the details of this case, long-term police | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
operations like this one in Blackburn, have helped reveal how | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
many children in Britain are potentially vulnerable to sexual | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
exploitation. But it is a problem that takes many forms, and that's | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
why it is so difficult to tackle. Sexual exploitation involves | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
something offered in return for sexual favours. Sweets, drugs, | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
alcohol, money, or apparent affection. In plain language, it is | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
grooming. The Deputy Children's Commissioner has been told it is | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
happening in every town, village and hamlet in the country. | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
The Children's Society is one of the charities trying to deal with | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
it. One of the key challenges about child exploitation, is the fact | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
that children themselves don't often recognise it. They don't | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
realise they are being manipulated or being exploited, they are being | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
used. Quite often they think they are in control, they think they are | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
the ones making the choices and decisions. Newsnight has seen | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
images too graphic to broadcast, passed around to hundreds of people | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
on a messaging service. Showing girls in their mid-teens performing | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
sex acts on boys of about the same age, some of whom we understand are | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
members of a London gang. The filming and the passing round of | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
such pictures are another form of exploitation that's thought to be | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
not uncommon amongst some young people. | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
Most cases of exploitation involve children living at home. But a | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
disproportionate number of victims, more than one in five, are in care. | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
Some care homes, the Government says, are specifically targeted by | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
abusers. Julie, not her real name, who was in care for four years, and | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
often ran away, now believes that she was one of many similar, | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
willing victims of older men. they just are after sex, aren't | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
they. And they probably just see a young girl and think, ah, she don't | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
live with her mum and dad, because they don't care, and she's in care, | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
of course she's going to come and stay at mine, do you know what I | :28:03. | :28:09. | |
mean. And, and, then they will just get what they want. They pour a bit | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
of alcohol in you and then you are legless. Research published today | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
finds evidence that children in care are sometimes introduced to | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
their abusers by other children, who may themselves be being | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
exploited. Julie had a friend, now she thinks no friend at all, who | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
led her into danger. She was like talking to this lad, they were like | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
friends, or something, but I didn't like him. And I wanted to go home, | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
but because it was late, and then, she was like pulling my arm, you | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
know. Stay out, stay out and stuff. And then because he wanted her to | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
stay out, so I got pulled along any way. They made me sleep or whatever | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
on the wooden floor while they were doing things. What did he try to do | :28:57. | :29:04. | |
to you? Eh, like, well he did do stuff to me, like have sex and | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
stuff. And like he were hitting me and swearing at me and stuff. | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
In an investigation into the care system last month, Newsnight | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
revealed many of the problems the Government is now seeking to solve. | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
Many vulnerable children are actually being exposed to greater | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
danger by the very people supposed to protect them. Councils often | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
send them away from their own areas to places, including some coastal | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
resort, which have cheap property for private care homes, but also a | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
high concentration of sex offenders and prostitution. We find it | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
utterly extraordinary that they would want to send their most | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
vulnerable children to an area with such significant social problems. | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
We think it is irresponsible of them, and cynical. Today the | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
Government announced it would make it harder for councils to send | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
their children away from their home area. It promised to have better | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
data on the number of children in care and missing, saying councils | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
are underestimating the problem. It ordered a review of the quality of | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
care homes T wants police to work heard, like those in Blackburn, to | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
win the trust of victims, and foings victims of abuse. Partly as | :30:16. | :30:24. | |
a means to secure more convictions. Back in the house where they found | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
the missing girl, they are still suspicious about the two 17-year- | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
old lads there. Can I have a look through your pockets for ID. | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
they will be taken to the politician. You are under arrest | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
for child abduction, you do not have to say anything...Later, | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
boys were released without charge. With no evidence of anything | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
untoward having happened. But they were formally warned to have no | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
further contact with the girl. She lives at home, but in other cases, | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
Blackburn Police work closely with care home staff, and the | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
responsible local authority, to try to ensure children run away less. | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
Where we started off at maybe 50% of the children we were dealing | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
with were from children's homes, now we are down to about 8% of the | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
children that we see referrals from being from children's homes. I | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
would say that we have had a dramatic effect on that, and again | :31:17. | :31:25. | |
it all comes down to multientity core location. Better information | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
sharing is at the heart of what the Government wants to do. It will let | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
the inspection agency, Ofsted, tell police the location of care homes. | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
Much depends on councils, which in many cases have cut their youth | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
service, which can't always find local care provision, and which | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
don't always want to acknowledge the danger that children may face | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
for fear they will have to spend more money to tackle it. The moment | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
you accept there is a problem in your area, then you will have to | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
invest some money. You are going to have to invest some time and | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
resources to respond to it, therefore, it is easier to either | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
ignore it or just say, no, we don't have their problem. I think that is | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
the key issue. In Blackburn, police are out most nights, touring the | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
hot spots, where children are exploited. But a problem so | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
widespread, so old, and so hard in some ways to define, won't easily | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
be solved, even by the best- intentioned of authorities. | :32:24. | :32:31. | |
The Children's Minister, Tim Loughton, and the Deputy Children's | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
Minister are here. Tim Loughton, bluntly, this comes down to market | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
forces, tragically. If 76% of children's homes are run for profit, | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
you cannot stop private care homes being set up in place where is | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
accommodation is cheap, can you? but this isn't down to ownership of | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
this form of children's care. What it should be down to is the quality | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
of the care offered, to often very vulnerable children. We have over | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
65,000 people in the care system, through no fault of their own, | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
spread across the country. We don't have children's homes spread across | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
the country, they are in clusters in certain seaside resort, | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
concentrated in the south-east and north-east of England. And 50% of | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
children in those homes come from well out of their area. I don't | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
believe that is the safest place and the best way to look after | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
these children. We understand that, the point is, if these are being | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
run by private companies, which three quarters of them are, you | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
will not get them to invest in areas where the accommodation is | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
more expensive. So they will be in these deeply unsuitable places, how | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
do you stop that? We are paying large amounts of money. A billion | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
pounds is being spent on up to 5,000 children in residential care | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
homes. That is an average of �200,000 a child in each year. That | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
is an awful lot of money. I don't believe we are getting value for | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
money. I believe the homes should come for the children, not the | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
children going to the homes. We should be looking after these | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
children, where they are safest were we can look after them and | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
give them the support they need. That is not by dumping them in | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
coastal resorts hundreds of miles from their homes in too many cases. | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
That is a platitude? It is not. is that message for, for those who | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
open the homes or councils paying for the homes? This is primarily | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
the responsibility of the corporate parents, local authorities, | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
responsible for those 65,500 people in care at the moment. They have | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
the responsibility to make sure those children are safe, and they | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
are getting the best possible care. I don't think they can justifiably | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
say they are looking after those children in the best way if they | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
are dumping them hundreds of miles away from home. Is that your | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
understanding, is it the local authorities to blame for sending | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
them further away? I would completely concur with that. Local | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
authorities are, as the minister said, the corporate parent, the | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
legal parent of children in cautious under particular types of | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
care orders. It is their responsibility to place the | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
children. Local authorities actually have a response, a duty in | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
law, to make sure that they have a sufficiency of places for children | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
in care, within their local authority area. What we know is | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
there are some local authorities that have no residential care homes | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
within their areas and they export all their children outside. There | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
are others, interestingly enough, that do have their own residential | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
care homes and they still export their children, so it is quite an | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
interesting phenomenon. Debbie Jones, the President of the | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
Associations of children and directors services, say there are | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
good reasons to place a child away from home, even when they are at | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
risk. Is that overused, do you think that response is overused? | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
is overused. What I would say, and I know this from years and years of | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
experience, and now from talking to children, who have experience of | :35:51. | :35:57. | |
being sexually exploited, is that too often children are placed in | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
homes as a matter of expeedcy. One of the 11 recommendations we have | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
made today, and this is not rocket science, every child who is placed | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
in care home, indeed whether it is foster home or residential home, | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
needs to have a proper assessment before they are placed. It is not | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
about making generalised at the same times about where children are | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
placed. The important thing is that each individual child is in the | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
right place for that child. And Tim Loughton, you have made some | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
changes that will come in immediately, which allows the data | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
to be shared between Ofsted and police and all the rest of it. If | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
Ofsted now finds these places unsuitable, because it has the data | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
at its fingertips, it will close these places down? We have changed | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
the way Ofsted inspect children's homes. And stopped any more | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
children being placed in homes thought to be unsuitable? Ofsted | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
have the power to close down children's homes f they inspect and | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
fail and can't get their act together they will not take | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
children. Will children's homes shut as a result of these measures? | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
I don't know, we have changed the way we inspect children's homes as | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
of April. Only 2% of children's homes inspected were deemed to be | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
failing. I don't believe that figure, I think we have a lot of | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
very good children's homes, but we have a lot of inadequate ones. The | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
anecdotal evidence through the changes we have made through Ofsted | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
is a greater number of homes will be found lacking. They need to get | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
their act together quickly. Found lacking and shut down? If they | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
don't get their act together they will close down or local | :37:32. | :37:34. | |
authorities will not place their children there, they should find a | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
better, more suitable, loving, caring place for those vulnerable | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
children. It is up to the corporate parent to take that decision now. | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
The wider cultural implication of what you have said recently, is | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
there isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children aren't | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
being exploited. Do you think this is getting worse? Firstly, let me | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
say that statement was given to me by a police officer, who had | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
undertaken a major investigation in his area. Those were his findings, | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
that I was reporting on. He was doing further investigations. What | :38:10. | :38:18. | |
I have depound, and we haven't -- found and we haven't yet concluded | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
all our data analysis, what you have found from the data gathered | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
already, is children are being sexually exploited all over the | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
country, in rural, urban and metropolitan areas, from people of | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
all kinds of different backgrounds, victims from all different kinds of | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
backgrounds and the abusers too. know from the technology that there | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
is a sense that more material is out there? That's right. Is that a | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
fallacy? No, it is absolutely accurate. Again, what we are | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
finding is, you saw on the film clip you showed, young boys, | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
sexually abusing and exploiting other girls. We are finding boys as | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
young as 14 and 15 as well as much older men, sometimes women but | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
largely males, being fuelled by violent pornography and the use of | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
social networking sites. And after that the high-profile Rochdale case, | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
and the question of whether race is a legitimate issue in this case. | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
Are you concerned that political correctness is hampering whether | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
you can get to the bottom of that? I think it has in the past, there | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
is no good denying it. We have had high-profile cases involving | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
British Pakistani men in particular, taking advantage of white teenage | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
girls. I can take you to other parts of the country where we have | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
white middle-aged men exploiting, grooming young girls and boys as | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
well. It is horses for courses, these are all serious sexual abuse | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
crimes against children. Ghastly crimes, and I want the police and | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
other agencies, to have the right and most appropriate tools, to | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
clamp down on these perpetrators and bring them to justice, wherever | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
and however they are carrying out this practice. If political | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
correctness is getting in the way of looking into this, it has to go. | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
They have slapped each other, spat at each other and called each other | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
names, this month David Haye and Dereck Chisora, both unlicensed | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
boxers, who in Britain, will meet in a fight that is promoted as the | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
boxing clash of the year. Not arguably for the quality of the | :40:16. | :40:24. | |
boxing, but the level of the an no sirity between the two men. What -- | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
an mossity between -- animosity between the two men. We will | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
discuss that with our guests in a moment. First w flash photography | :40:31. | :40:38. | |
in the report, it is Peter Marshall. In the eyes of the sports | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
authorities, and of many who loathe boxing, Dereck Chisora shouldn't be | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
allowed near the ring. Mind you, his best-known fight wasn't in the | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
ring, it was at a news conference, after his latest boxing defeat, | :40:50. | :40:58. | |
when he fell out with another failing British boxer, David Haye. | :40:58. | :41:06. | |
And now, empties well aired, and despite the fact that neither has a | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
British boxing license, Haye and Chisora are to fight without gloves | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
before crowds. For purists it is a new low for sport, attracting only | :41:16. | :41:22. | |
the interest of ghouls, but the Chisora-Haye fight promised to make | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
more money than any boxing match this year. Is it another death | :41:27. | :41:34. | |
knell moment for boxing as a legitimate sport. Do you want me to | :41:34. | :41:41. | |
not fight, what do you want me to do hang up my gloves, why look for | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
another job. Many will say a period of penance is appropriate because | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
of behaviour in the past? You know what, I came out doing 12 rounds, | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
and I was already doing a press conference, you know, in less than | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
20 minutes after my adrenaline pumping, everything happening, | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
moving at 100 miles an hour. So certain things were said on that | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
night. You said you were going to shoot him four times? I did, I hold | :42:08. | :42:14. | |
my hand up and I apologise, I have never owned and gun and never will. | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
I never shot anybody and I apologise. Dereck Chisora is | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
personable, but armed or not he has a dreadful record, he has been | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
known to bite and spit, not only at his opponents, he has convictions | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
for violence. Maybe it is because of that, his fight with Haye will | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
attract a big audience on hand and on pay TV. As a fighter you have | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
lost two championship fights on the run, this is a big pay day? They | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
are all big pay days, I never get small pay day, me and my big mouth | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
get big pay days. That is the trick, you use your mouth and get it? | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
Muhammed Ali uses his mouth and one of the greatest athletes now, why | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
not follow in the footsteps of the man I love. A business model? | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
Exactly. Muhammed Ali changed everything. | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
Here he is pumping up the publicity with Joe Bugner. But Ali had | :43:08. | :43:15. | |
something to sell. He really was the greatest. | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
The Haye-Chisora fight is a reflection of the changing nature | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
of professional boxing. Since the hey day of Muhammed Ali, it has | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
become ever further removed from the sporting mainstream. What | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
happened to professional boxing? Money has driven that. TV companies | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
who supply the most money, don't deal with the sport as in, they | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
would, in other sports. TV deals with the Premier League, or FIFA in | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
football, in boxing they deal with the promoter and the boxer. | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
Everyone wants to stage championship fights, so they | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
arrange different championships? You can essentially buy belts to go | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
with your fights. The British Boxing Board of Control who have | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
declared Chisora unfit to fight, are the latest to see their | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
authority undermined. If someone told you you were not | :44:04. | :44:11. | |
fit. They even if psychologically fit? Do I look crazy at all. | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
behave in a crazy way sometimes? you look crazy, since you walked | :44:16. | :44:22. | |
into my gym, do I look crazy? but you can be crazy without | :44:22. | :44:30. | |
looking crazy? Who knows, Ahhhhh! So he is amusing company, but the | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
British Boxing Board of Control aren't in any mood for laughs. I | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
didn't flinch! You didn't flinch, great one. | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
Frank Warren who is Dereck Chisora's manager, and Robert Smith, | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
from the British Boxing Board of Control. They have never debated | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
each other before, but they join us this evening. Thank you General | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
gentlemen for coming in. Frank Warren, you heard it there, it is | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
just a business model, isn't it, it is way of making cash, morality is | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
out the window on this one? First of all, they are professional | :45:00. | :45:06. | |
boxers, boxing for unM as regards to morality, I can think of lots of | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
sportsmen over the years who problems. Eric Cantona, assaulted a | :45:10. | :45:18. | |
fan, yet BBC and other TV companies showed his matches. You can look at, | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
only recently, you are talking about morality of things, Formula | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
One in Bahrain, BBC covered t after all the terrible problems, 50 | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
people died in Bahrain. Your point is these guys are completely wrong | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
to try to stop it? You say try to stop it t they had a hearing which | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
the prosecutor, judge and jury at the British Boxing Board of Control, | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
they took away Dereck Chisora's license. It was said at the boxing | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
board of control at the time, because the question was asked, if | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
it goes to another jurisdiction, that's what he can do, and he's | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
allowed to do it. That is what he has done. This is not about Dereck | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
Chisora and David Haye, contrary to what the boxing board say. It is | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
about another governing body coming into this country to sanction | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
fights. Everybody should remember that the British Boxing Board of | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
Control is, in fact, a limited company, it is not a Government | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
department, it is a limited company. For a boxing organisation, you | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
haven't much punch? It is a shame you haven't shown the whole events | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
leading up to Mr Chisora having his license withdrawn. It was a weekend | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
disastrous for the sport. He slapped man, his opponent, on the | :46:27. | :46:34. | |
way in. He spat a stream of water at his opponent's brother previous | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
to a fight. He ended the weekend with brawl at a press conference. | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
These sort of events don't do the sport any good whatsoever, not just | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
in Great Britain, but elsewhere around the world as well. This | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
happened where we are happy to send licensed boxers over. | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
It doesn't work you take away their licenses and Luxembourg steps in? | :46:58. | :47:08. | |
For the majority it works, most of the people we work with are good | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
people. The Sports Minister said the events that took place were | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
disgusting. We have to deal with that. We have a system where the | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
hearing took place, he had his license withdrawn. That means he | :47:20. | :47:26. | |
was ultimately banned from boxing until he reapplied again in our | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
jurisdiction. He had an opportunity to appeal that decision and he | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
withdrew. Do you admit there would be much less interest in this, if | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
there wasn't the loathing and animosity about the fight? There | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
was talk of the fight in Germany getting out of the control. It gave | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
it some publicity. Which you welcome? I don't welcome what | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
happened in Germany, but it did happen, you won't change history, | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
that is what occurred. But, how long is Dereck Chisora not allowed | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
to box. He's not banned from boxing, you are wrong with what you said, | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
he was not banned from boxing, you withdrew his license. He's allowed | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
to box in this country, it is legal. The Sports Minister, you are | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
misleading there, the Sports Minister said he doesn't want to | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
get involved in that situation. You wrote to the Sports Minister, and | :48:14. | :48:20. | |
he said it clear publicly he doesn't want want to get involved. | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
The Sports Minister said the actions of what happened at the | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
weekend was wrong. And since then he doesn't want to be involved in | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
it. He has gone on record saying that. As simple as that. When we | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
talk about license with people, it is within our jurisdiction, when a | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
boxer has his license withdrawn, that is the ultimate sanction to | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
have the license withdrawn, it is ban until he reapplies for the | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
license. Dereck Chisora, as you asked the question at the hearing, | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
could he reapply for his license, the answer was yes. A ban is very | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
simple. Doesn't it make you think, when you are two miles from the | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
Olympic stadium, a month before the Olympics, you have got this on your | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
plate to have to say, this is what boxing is about, this is what our | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
sport is about? These are professional boxers, it is | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
misleading to say he was banned, when you ban someone you said six | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
months or 12 months. That didn't happen, he's not banned, he's free | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
and licensed to box. The fight has been sanctioned by three | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
association, the British boxing forward of control. You have no | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
power over this at all? What has happened is the boxing board of | :49:27. | :49:33. | |
control are totally mishandling it. We talked about this many times, | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
the British boxing board have made their decision. What is happening | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
is people have made a decision to circumvent the board's decision | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
with regard to withdrawing his license. We govern the sport in | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
this country, we have to look after the reputation of boxing in Great | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
Britain. We do not feel what has happened is the right thing to | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
happen. The board of control made a mess of the whole thing. We will | :49:54. | :50:04. | |
:50:04. | :50:31. | ||
take you briefly through the front That's all from Newsnight tonight, | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
Jeremy is here tomorrow with news from their appearance, and a | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
special studio debate about old people's place in society. From all | :50:38. | :50:47. | |
:50:48. | :50:51. | ||
of us here, good night. A damp night outside, a warm and humid one | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
as well. So we start tomorrow morning with a lot of moisture | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
across the country. It is a dull, grey start, some sunny spells | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
across northern Scotland. Brighter across parts of eastern England, | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
sunshine here. The likelihood of heavy showers developing over parts | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
of North West England and the Midlands. East Anglia and the | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
south-east seeing a shower or two, some sunny spells developing, and | :51:15. | :51:22. | |
feeling humid. A fresher feel across Kevin and Cornwall after a | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
fresher start. Western tarts -- Devon and Cornwall after a fresher | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
start. North Wales staying grey with further outbreaks of rain. | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
Northern Ireland starts damp, brighter here too, some sunny | :51:33. | :51:40. |