Browse content similar to 04/07/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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More and more of us are living longer and longer, some one has to | :00:12. | :00:18. | |
pay for T I mean I have lived in my house for 30 years. I can't bear | :00:18. | :00:25. | |
the thought of losing it. But, I'm going to have to. Should we expect | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
older people to look after themselves, or is it the duty of | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
younger tax-payers to support more and more pensioners? Between them, | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
these people have lived almost 1100 years. They face the minister, a | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
spring chicken at 56, a chit of a policy wonk, whose taxes support | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
them. And a man who embarked on a new career hosting countdown at the | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
age of 67. We test drive a mobility scooter. It is a bit slow, can I | :00:56. | :01:06. | |
make it go faster. The boss of Barclays faces angry MPs. With | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
respect, for the third time, what month did you discover the low- | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
balling was going on, give me date. This month. As late as this month. | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
And lives to tell the tale. Who can find out precisely who was | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
in on the scam? And the minister's also going to | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
:01:33. | :01:34. | ||
tell us why he finds this formula intoxicating. | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
The days of our years are three score years and ten, the Pamist | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
tells us. Except, they are increasingly more than, that and | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
some how it all has to be paid for. Sooner or later, and it is already | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
much later than they told us it would be, the Government will have | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
to come up with some ideas. Why should old people expected to pay | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
for themselves, why should young people work to care for them. Why | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
should relatives bail out the taxpayer by unpaid caring. What is | :02:04. | :02:11. | |
the point of extreme old age, any way. To get some clues, I have been | :02:11. | :02:19. | |
in Christchurch Dorset. Welcome to the town that turned | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
grey. There are plenty of wore places to | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
see out your days, and out of every three people in Christchurch, one | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
is already over 65. It is the highest proportion in Britain, and | :02:31. | :02:41. | |
:02:41. | :02:44. | ||
it is growing. People with a past are Britain's future. The high | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
street has changed, the present customers don't come for board | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
shorts, but they still like a bit of sparkle. They still like to | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
motor with the roof down. There isn't a roof, and the top speed is | :02:56. | :03:02. | |
eight miles an hour. Indicators, brake lights, suspension, there is | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
even a clock, a temperature gauge. Go-faster-stripes on them or | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
anything like that? No, no-go- faster-stripes! Spoilers. Have you | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
had cases of old people racing each other in them. Do you need a | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
license to drive them? There is no legal requirement for a license. | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
How do you know you are not setting it to a hooligan old person. It is | :03:27. | :03:37. | |
:03:37. | :03:39. | ||
slow, can I make it go faster. Oh! Whoops! Ha ha! I wouldn't trust me | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
on one of these. It is not very interesting as a | :03:44. | :03:54. | |
:03:54. | :03:59. | ||
ride. It would make a difference if Over 85s are the fastest-growing | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
sector of Britain's population. It is reckoned most of us can expect | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
to have to care for an old person at some time in our lives. Looking | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
after people who a generation or two would have been dead k dominate | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
people's lives. At the very point when they might have been expecting | :04:14. | :04:22. | |
to put their feet up. Mary is 60, when she was born, her mother, Rose, | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
did everything for her. Mary grew up and looked after herself, her | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
mother is now 89, and in the grip of dementia, and now Mary does | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
everything for her mother. What would happen to your mother if you | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
weren't there to look after her? She would probably have to go into | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
a home. Do you resent her? You would lead a different life if you | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
weren't caring for your mum? Yes, I do sometimes, there is no doubt | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
about that. Then I feel really guilty, when I look at her at times. | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
She doesn't really want to be like this. Had she to look at herself | :05:02. | :05:09. | |
when she was 60, say, and think, that's what I'm going to become, | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
she would be horrified. You are in that position, you are about 60? | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
Yes, I'm 60. You look at your mother and you can see the future? | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
That is terrifying to me. Unpaid carers save the taxpayer hundreds | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
of millions each year. But not enough. When the proportion of old | :05:27. | :05:36. | |
people gets this high, it becomes unsustainable. In the high cliff | :05:36. | :05:43. | |
area of Christchurch, seven out of ten people are over 60. The Local | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
Government Association is warning that within 20 years tax-payers | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
will have to find another �12 billion a year to look after the | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
elderly. Already councils are struggling. Dorset County Council | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
says it spends 44% of its budget on adult social care, which means cuts | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
elsewhere. It means if we are taking up more | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
and more of the expenditure of the county against a smaller budget, | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
there is less available for other services across the county as well. | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
Either you spend the money on old people or something else. The | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
problem here is worse than in most places, isn't it? Yes, because of | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
our demographic. We have a large proportion of older people wrecks | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
attract people who retire here, a beautiful place to be. They retire | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
very independent, and haven't thought through the costs of their | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
care, as they become less independent in perhaps 20 years | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
from the time they retire. There is an alternative. Dorset | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
County Council only runs one of the care homes in town. There are | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
another 10 residential or nursing homes. They are private enterprise, | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
and they don't come cheap. At lunch they get a choice of food, | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
and a glass of sherry. The average age of the residents is 85, and no- | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
one stays longer than four years. This place, I think, is absolutely | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
wonderful. How long have you been here? I have been here nearly a | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
year. I have been here a few weeks. Do you like it? Yeah, it is very | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
good. I haven't a clue what I pay, the family deal with it. I can tell | :07:24. | :07:31. | |
you it is a lot of money, it is averageing out at �1,000 a week. | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
Sorry? Didn't you know that. didn't know that. What happens | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
really now is that my pension just about balances what I have to pay | :07:43. | :07:52. | |
here. Ken is lucky, death is a certainty for all of us, but not | :07:52. | :08:00. | |
extreme old age. Jill Park was a fitness instructor for 30 years, at | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
70 she was diagnosed with what turned out to be terminal cancer. | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
Who would have thought with my life I would have ended up like this. It | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
is the last thing I would have dreamt of. My house obviously will | :08:13. | :08:20. | |
have to be sold. The proceeds of that house will go to pay my keep | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
here. Which is, again, not what I planned. I have lived in my house | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
for 30 years. I can't bear the thought of losing it. | :08:32. | :08:42. | |
:08:42. | :08:43. | ||
But, I'm going to have to. They used to say that life is what | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
happens while Urbisy making other plans. So too is death. If we | :08:48. | :08:57. | |
cannot or will not provide for ourselves, -- while you are busy | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
making plans, so it death. If we can't or will not provide for | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
ourselves who will while we face our ever lengthening days. | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
When we talk to our guests, and put their concerns to the minister. It | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
is time to look at the statistics, stark, heading our way, all with | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
enormous price tags. Allegra Stratton presents them. | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
They have never had it so good. The 60s generation, who didn't pay | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
to go to university, and who bought their own homes when they were | :09:36. | :09:43. | |
cheap. Now they are paying very low interest rates on those homes, that | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
is if they haven't paid off their mortgages already. Equity, thought | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
to be tied up in their properties, is valued at around a trillion | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
pounds. And then, when they retire, they will be last to retire on | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
final salary pensions. Of this Government's combined tax and | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
benefit changes, pensioners have lost less on average than either | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
working-age families with children, or those without. Mrs Morris can | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
only afford to heat one room, she's confined to a makeshift bed. It was | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
not always like this. Benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance, were | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
brought in to tackle serious pensioner poverty. I can't afford | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
to have it on all the time. In the 1980s and 1990s, reaching old age | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
had often meant penry, that is not the case now. Frrb figures looking | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
at income distribution, shows pensioner poverty at the lowest | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
level since 1984. But poverty for working-age households without | :10:41. | :10:50. | |
children is similar levels to those in the 1970s. While we are | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
associate somewhere like Carnaby Street with young people, | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
frittering away their salary, research during this recession has | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
found it is the over 65s who have carried on spending, younger | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
households have cut back. If you were born between 1980 and 1990, | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
you don't need me to tell you you are facing a raw deal. Graduate | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
unemployment is running as high as 20%. People wait until 40 years old | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
to get their first house, if you are lucky enough to save for a | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
deposit, the chances are these banks won't give awe mortgage. Why | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
can't this Government do something about it? While Labour's vote is | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
spread across the generation, the Tories peak with older supporters, | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
because they are more likely to vote, their effect for the Tories | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
is what pollsters describe typically as a double whammy. In | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
the last election the over 65s formed 40% of the turnout in 102 | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
constituencies. But Ian Duncan Smith believes the Conservatives | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
have to pledge change at the next election, he believes they have to | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
go into 2015 pledge to go scrap universal benefits for all but the | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
poorest pensioners. It might not sound like a vote-winner, but it | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
shouldn't be a vote-loser, senior Conservatives don't think that | :12:03. | :12:13. | |
:12:13. | :12:17. | ||
Labour can go against that. There are shades of grey to this debate, | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
pensions are seeing meagre returns. But sources indicate after the next | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
election they will ask more of this grou. Baby-boomers may never again | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
have it so good. The Government minister, Willets, is here to ask | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
questions from our audience, who range in age from 60-91. Nick Hewer, | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
from The Apprentice, has just finished making a film about old | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
people. And our token young person tonight is Ruth Porter from the | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
Institute of Economic Affairs. Let's start with you Ruth, do you | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
think there are benefits and entitlements that older people | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
should give up? I think there are. We are in extremely difficult | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
situation at the moment. We have got a situation where we have | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
promised our old age provision on taxpayer subsidies, we can't afford | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
that any more. We need to look at moving to situation where people | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
fund their old age more and more through direct payments. It will be | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
a long transition, but one we need to make. We have had successive | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
Governments who have stood up at election time, successive parties, | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
and they have promised reckless spending they couldn't afford. At | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
the next election, it is not going to be credible for people to stand | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
up and say we can still afford to give Winter Fuel Allowance to | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
millionaires. Do you think that you should and can give up some | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
entitlements, can't you? No, we cannot give up any entitlements. As | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
workers, when we were working, we paid into the tax system. We paid | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
into the tax system, we supported our families, we made a | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
contribution to the society, to our families and friends. You think it | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
is an entitlement which has to be honoured, indefinitely? Yes, | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
indefinitely. I do not think that having worked as long as we have, | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
having made a contribution, and we are still making a contribution, we | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
still making a contribution to the country, through taxation, pensions | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
are taxed. Through voluntary work that we do, through our care that | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
we gave to our families, our friends, our spouses, and our | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
spending power. We are putting money into the economy. Do you | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
think there is any entitlements that old people have that they | :14:37. | :14:43. | |
should give up? None at all. Once do you that, you're actually asking | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
people to give up, and turning around the Government saying, there | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
are rich people, or well-off pensioners. As far as I'm concerned | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
no pensioner is well-off, what they have worked for, they have worked | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
for all their life, all their working life. To get something back. | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
And remember, what they put in, they are not asking for hand-outs. | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
Means testing was what this Government and other Governments | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
want to put forward, straight away, if you start taking away from this, | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
remember, 11 million old age pensioners, by the year 2020 it | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
will be 14 million. One in ten votes will go up the creek for any | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
party coming into power. Let's leave aside the blackmail argument! | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
Let's stick with the moral one for now. What do you think about | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
universal benefit, entitlement for every person over the age of 60, or | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
whatever it is, to get free transport, or Winter Fuel Allowance, | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
that sort of thing? Well, the most important contributing benefit, of | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
course, is the basic state pension. Everybody understands how that | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
carries on. We made a clear commitment in our manifesto, on | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
these other special payments, to keep those. We are going to stick | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
by that pledge. More widely, I think older people do make a | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
contribution, the question is getting the balance exactly right. | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
One form of contribution older people make, of course, is many | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
pass on money to children and grandchildren. There has been one | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
calculation that pensioners already provide more cash to grandchildren | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
than the total value of child benefit. So there are all these | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
types of exchanges between the generations that already happen, | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
and a good thing too. Is there anyone here think there are some | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
things they are entitled to that they could give up, you do Sir? | :16:28. | :16:35. | |
much more ambivalent about some of the flat-rate benefits. Frankly, | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
even though I'm basic rate taxpayer, since I took early retirement, I | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
can afford transport cost, I don't need a free bus pass, I could also | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
do without the Winter Fuel Allowance. I would want something | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
in exchange, I would want some incentive that would allow me to do | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
part-time work, and contribute tax in that way. That would be a fairer | :16:58. | :17:05. | |
system than flat-rate benefit. Do you have a Freedom Pass? What is | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
that? The free transport? No. it absurd that someone like, or | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
someone like me, is offered such a thing? I think those that really | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
don't need it can well afford to do without it, should just not take it. | :17:20. | :17:30. | |
Absolutely. Go on? Can I say something. Yes. I think that those | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
benefits should be liable for tax. Now, if you are at the lower end of | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
the spectrum, existing on �107.45 a week, you have enough tax allowance | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
to cover that, you would still get those benefits in full, if you are | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
at the higher end of the tax allowance, it would probably be all | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
swallowed up in tax. So that would be the fairest way. If you are | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
going to look at every pensioner and see whether they are rich or | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
poor, you are going to have to employ an army of civil servants to | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
sort it out. Which is going to cost a lot more any way. That, to me, | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
would be the fairest means, and if it meant I have to pay a bit more, | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
I get an extra pension, I get a police pension. If it means I have | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
to pay a bit more, and my fellow pensioners are not stuck indoors, | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
on tranquillisers, because they haven't got a Freedom Pass, I'm | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
more than happy to pay it. Can you guarantee that everyone who is | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
currently entitled to a Freedom Pass will continue to remain | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
entitled to it? We made a clear set of commitments in our manifesto, | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
and we are going to stick to those. We have also already done things | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
that have tried to ensure fairness between generations. Nobody has yet | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
mentioned the fact that we are speeding up the increase in the | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
pension age. So the age that you have to reach before you start | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
collecting your pension. That has gone up. That is after the next | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
election, isn't it? We are speeding up that process. That, I think | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
people have by and large accepted it. Although it was controversial, | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
I think the Chancellor was absolutely right to say we should | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
have all the same income tax allowance. He has brought up the | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
income tax allowance for people who aren't of pension age. We are | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
trying to get this balance right. But it is tricky, in the process we | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
have got to honour the pledges we have made. We will do that. | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
Not only do people have to wait longer, for their pensions, they | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
have to pay more into it. So there is a double jeopardy there. And | :19:26. | :19:33. | |
also, if I might take you back to your introduction, when you said | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
that should younger people work to pay income tax to keep older people | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
going? We paid income tax when we were at work, what's happened to | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
that money? We took care of the pensioners when we were at work. | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
There were fewer of them, you are all living too long? At what age | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
would you like us to lay down and die. Successive Governments have | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
been mooting this. Do you accept it is a growing cohort of people? | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
may be the case, but we're still paying income tax. We are | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
contributing in so many other ways. Why are we being penalised, why are | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
we being denied things. There is talk about taking away the Freedom | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
Pass, yet on the other hand we are being told we have to contribute to | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
the Big Society. Without the Freedom Pass, we would not be able | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
to get around to all the meetings and the support that we give to | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
other people. Are we expected to pay out of our pockets to do what | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
the Government is asking us to do. There is a lady behind you pretty | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
agitated? Can I say, first of all, with a great deal of regret, that I | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
think the presentation so far has been very unbalanced, and the | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
platform is not balanced. We should have had an expert who would be | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
able to counter the arguments of the first clip we USA that is one | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
thing. But the question is how do other -- we saw, that is one thing. | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
But the question is how do other countries afford it, there are 157 | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
countries in the world, this country, the sixth-richest in the | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
world, is fourth from the bottom in terms of state pension provision. | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
If other countries can afford it, so can we. We are still a very rich | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
country, and I'm still paying taxes. The whole thing is really absolute | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
nonsense. It is a question of political will, in the same way as, | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
in 1948 it was a question of political will when the deficit | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
that we hear so much about, after World War II, was bigger than it is | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
now, and yet we managed, from scratch, to produce the welfare | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
state, and the fantastic NHS that has now being taken away from us. | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
What reassurance can you offer a voter like that? In my experience, | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
all voters understand that we have obligations to each generation. It | :21:47. | :21:54. | |
is a matter of getting the balance right. Of course we have a great | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
obligation to pensioners, but we also have an obligation to young | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
people, not loading them with the cost and servicing and financing of | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
the debt we leave behind W if we leave behind thrillions of debt, | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
they will be paying taxes for decades to service the borrowings | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
we have taken on. We have an obligation to the younger | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
generation as well. In my experience older people understand | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
that, we understand older generations paid for us when we | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
were younger and we have an obligation to younger generations | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
coming after us. What about the moral argument, anyone want to | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
engage about it, why younger people, your children and grandchildren, | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
people that have generation, should pay to keep you in the entitlements | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
that you currently have? I believe that, at the moment, older people | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
are being made to work far longer. Because the state pension, that has | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
been pointed out, is so low, people have to carry on working. I don't | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
think at the moment having all these older people working for | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
longer and longer, is really in the interests of the community as a | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
whole. I think, when we have got mass unemployment among our young | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
people, and we are forcing our older people to carry on longer and | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
longer working, a lot of people carry on working because they have | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
to, because you can't live on the state pension. If that is your only | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
income. And now we are being told, no, you can't retire, as I did, at | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
60, and men used to at 65, it is going up, it is going to be 67 and | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
68, we hear 70, more than 70. We have all these young people with no | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
jobs, and we are keeping our old people in jobs, and we are | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
depriving our young people. It just seems to be completely on its head. | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
You have just been doing a programme about this, this question | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
of retirement. Do you see any point in a retirement age? The point is, | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
that a child born today will be 77 before the state pension kicks in. | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
And what we did on that programme, the town that never retired, we | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
took 14 pensioners and put them back to work, we put plasterers | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
back to work at 75 and joiners and plumbers, in the Arctic conditions | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
of a winter in Preston, on an open building site, because that is what | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
is going to have to happen. Because a great slab of society have never | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
earned enough in their working life to put something aside for their | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
old age, and they rely on their pension. If you want to see, or do | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
I want to see my father, as it were, at 75, up ladder, plastering a | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
ceiling. As a son, I would prefer to pay more tax so that he didn't | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
have to do that. And remember, the son, will be old too one day. | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
He will be the begin fishry it was the most extraordinary experiment - | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
- beneficiary, it was the most extraordinary experiment, these | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
older people had such pride in their work, it was extraordinary, | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
but they couldn't physically do it. You are assuming that technology | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
will stay the same in 20 years time, it is not. They will be building | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
houses in quite a different way. There is gentleman behind you? | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
would like to put a word in for the millions of people, of pensionable | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
age, who are still working and want to do so. If you're fit. You want | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
to work? I'm still working full- time. How old are you? If you are | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
fit and healthy, why not carry on working, it has benefits to | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
yourself, and the community, and if you still have an active role in | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
life you are going to live longer, happier, healthier and be less of a | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
burden on the state. So I would say for those people who want to work, | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
beyond the pensionable age, let them work, and let's remove this | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
prejudice against older people. have got rid of the retirement age | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
last year, no longer can anybody be forced to retire, Jews because of | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
their age, and a good -- just because of their age, and a good | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
thing too. Absolutely right. There is a conventional expectation? | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
There is no legal basis for that expectation. One of the things we | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
will have to expect when we get older is more of us will have to | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
work longer. We can't have the same period of working life and a longer | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
and longer time in retirement. Judges can work until they are 70s, | :26:12. | :26:19. | |
is it reasonable for manual labour, digging ditches, it is already | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
sitting here on high salaries with hand made shoes, but others don't. | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
There is less andless work like, that but there is evidence older | :26:27. | :26:35. | |
people carry on working and they should have the right. I want to | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
represent -- ask the representative of one of the generation that might | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
have to work for a lot longer. What does it mean to you with older | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
people going back into the work place? The fundamental issue is | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
people were told the amount of money they were paying into the | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
system was enough to care for them when they retired. And that hasn't | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
been the case. For younger people who are working, and for older | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
people who continue to work, they are, in a sense, facing a double | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
whammy. They are supporting, and topping up, the money for those who | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
are now in retirement, but at the same time, they are now looking to | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
the future and thinking, gosh, in 2050 we will have double the number | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
of people over 65 that we have got today. We need to be looking at | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
saving. A lady raised the question before, what are other countries | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
doing? If you look at some of the things other countries are do | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
places like Australia have moved from state pension system to a | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
compulsory savings system that can give you more flexibility in terms | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
of when people do retire. This very big cost of social care, in other | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
words, homes, effectively, when exactly are you going to tell us | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
what your proposals are. You keep on saying it will be very shortly, | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
and then a bit longer and a bit longer? I can assure you it will be | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
very shortly Next week? I don't know exactly how many weeks, we | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
have made it absolutely clear we will publish a draft bill on this | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
publishing our White Paper. We do want to work with other parties, to | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
try to agree a long-term settlement. Why is it taking so long to work | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
out? Because it is a very tricky issue. We saw with the emotions we | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
saw in the film earlier, we know people feel intensely about staying | :28:23. | :28:30. | |
in their own home wrecks need an affordable system. -- We need an | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
affordable system. I have a question about free travel, it | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
shouldn't be called that. The Government pays local authorities | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
�120 million a year to pay for that travel, pensioners contribute for | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
working for nothing, either looking after their grandchildren, a loved | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
one, �40 billion, not million, �40 billion a year, we save this | :28:52. | :29:00. | |
country. Let's look at the broader question of social care, the lady | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
you saw in the film, very upset that she was having to sell her | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
home, in order to pay for her care. She has very bad cancer, and she | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
needs proper care, she can't live at home. Is there any reason why | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
she shouldn't have to sell her home? I think so. If we get away | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
with the loophole that let's people in this country get money paid into | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
offshore accounts so they don't pay tax, that would cut our deficit | :29:30. | :29:37. | |
straight away. Pauline Turner, you sold your mother's house? Yes I did, | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
my mother has been in a care home for four-and-a-half years. I bought | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
a care package in case everything happened to me I wanted to make | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
sure she was taken care of. So far it has cost �96,000. What I wanted | :29:50. | :29:58. | |
to ask Mr Willets, is the Dilnot Commission going to be included in | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
this White Paper. Because it is so important, these are the only | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
people that have come up. This is the inquiry into how you fund long- | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
term care when you are old? It is much fairer than what we have now | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
my mother, in a way, she has Alzheimer's, so she doesn't know | :30:18. | :30:25. | |
what's happened to her mother. report was an excellent report, | :30:25. | :30:32. | |
Andrew Dilnot. I had input in that too. It is great report. Andrew is | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
a complete expert on this, but it does come with quite a high cost up | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
front, the Government has to look at whether that can be afforded and | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
how we pay for it. We do want to work to find a solution between the | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
other parties. Social care has always been the Cinderella of the | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
NHS. That lady who spoke earlier, none of the councils ring-fence | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
their money for the elderly. None of them. And also, let me point out | :30:59. | :31:06. | |
too, that where my mother lives, her costs this year went up by 5%. | :31:06. | :31:15. | |
What KCC paid for their hom people is 1.5%, self-funders are | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
subsidising councils. If you could ensure people there was a maximum | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
bill they could face, it might give them more confidence to say. We | :31:22. | :31:29. | |
understand that argument. What does a person do who is in my position, | :31:29. | :31:38. | |
I was perfectly fit in 2003, I came home from work, within a few | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
seconds, I just literally, quicker than you can turn a page on a book, | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
or turn off an electric light, collapsed on the floor. I was on | :31:47. | :31:54. | |
the floor for 72 hours. Until I was picked up. I had to literally pull | :31:55. | :32:03. | |
the telephone off the wall. But I can't meet my current accounts. | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
Because I'm simply not getting the support that I feel, with many | :32:08. | :32:18. | |
:32:18. | :32:18. | ||
others, that we need. Do you own your own house? No, I don't. What | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
sort of comfort can you give? don't know the detales of your | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
personal circumstances. Every person in Government understands | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
absolutely we have obligations to people who have suffered personal | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
misfortune of the type you describe. But equally we have obligations of | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
people across the ages. We can't get into a mind set where it is one | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
generation against another generation. The best way to ensure | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
that we carry on standing by our older citizens, to whom we have an | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
obligation, is to ensure that the younger generation as well think | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
they are getting a fair deal, that we have also discharged our duty to | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
them. The Government believes in fairness to beginlation racial -- | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
generations. Then we can keep the show on the road. Can we explore | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
that issue, responsibility to coming generations? I think that | :33:09. | :33:19. | |
the emphasis has been so much on that rich and poor that matter. | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
There is a study carried out in Europe, it is called the European | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
Pensions Barometer Report, which I would like a comment on from the | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
reporter, which shows that of the countries across Europe, Britain | :33:35. | :33:42. | |
has a very high ranking for being able to afford, this is pensions, | :33:42. | :33:51. | |
it would also apply to care, that has the lowest pension, and it also | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
has the very high ranking for sustainability. Do you feel a | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
responsibility towards younger generations? We're doing it for the | :33:59. | :34:05. | |
younger generations. You are doing what for them? This is from the | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
National Pensioners' Convention, which has a lot of information that | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
could have clarified a lot in your initial introduction. I'm just | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
saying is the minister not ashamed, that in Europe we have the | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
capability, high-ranking capability, but the failure to even make the | :34:20. | :34:28. | |
pension at a decent rate. You have your hand up? I am right | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
with you on this. The lady who spoke earlier, you seem to be | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
avoiding a lot, there are many, many young people out of work. Some | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
of them have been out of work so long they have never worked. There | :34:40. | :34:47. | |
will be more of them out of work if older people are in work? These are | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
our children and great-grand children and our families, the | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
rights we have we want them. To the Government should be putting money | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
into getting our young people working. And it is a point about | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
these people, these huge companies who owe billions in offshore | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
accounts, you can't just leave it alone, why aren't you, in the | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
Government, recovering that money? Do something about it, because | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
that's what is causing the deficit. It is not young people being lazy | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
causing it, it is not people living too long, which I find obscene that | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
you, it is something to rejoice that people are living longer. | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
course we have to extract a fair amount of tax from banks. There is | :35:28. | :35:35. | |
notes a pot of gold at the end of the garden to solve our sole fiscal | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
problems. There is a huge amount. Give him a chance to speak? We are | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
investing in young people's work, we have a huge number more of | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
apprenticeships. We want to get the balance right, so we can stand | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
beside the obligations to older people and standby opportunities | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
for younger people. We will cut it there. It promised to be something | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
of a spectacular, one of the most unpopular many in Britain facing a | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
mob of politician, eefpl more than willing to cast the first stone. | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
When Bob Diamond, the ousted boss of Barclays, popped up before the | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
Treasury Select Committee, we didn't learn a whole lot more about | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
how his bank rigged interest rates. Instead of asking difficult | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
questions, the MPs did what they are used to doing, and made | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
speeches. Tomorrow parliament will decide whether the scandal should | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
be investigated by another bunch of politicians for a judicial inquiry. | :36:30. | :36:39. | |
American Bob Diamond has probably had better 4th of July, like the | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
4th July 1996, the day he joininged Barclays. There was no -- joined | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
Barclays. There was no celebrations today as he arrived at the British | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
seat of power to defend his history. First thing you need to know about | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
Bob, he's a man in love. I love Barclays. David I love Barclays. | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
love Barclays because of the people. And you know what, Barclays loved | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
him back, paying him more than �120 million since 2005. A sum with | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
which he could have, if he wanted, hired a Barclays-sponsored bike in | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
London for two-and-a-half million years. The Barclays LIBOR scandal | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
fits rather neatly into three parts, the first has to do with the period, | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
2005-2007, when, traders working for Barclays sought to manipulate | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
the firm's LIBOR submissions, in order to make money. Not | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
surprisingly, Mr Diamond told MPs today that he didn't think this was | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
acceptable. I got physically ill, it is reprehensible behaviour, and | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
if you are asking me should those actions be dealt with? Absolutely. | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
While Barclays traders were trying to pump up the LIBOR rate, Bob, you | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
see, knew nothing about it. Despite the fact that the pumpers worked | :37:55. | :38:03. | |
for him. Well, love can sometimes be blind. MPs were, well, let's say, | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
sceptical. You didn't know anything about that, yet the regulator can | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
document a trader, sitting with a submiter, and shouting across the | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
room, "I'm going to, this is the rate we are going to declare, does | :38:20. | :38:28. | |
anybody have a problem with that?" I don't expect you to look at all | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
the e-mail, but did you run such a firm that nobody in the firm would | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
think that's something the boss should know. Because this is | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
crucial, this is the integrity of the bank? Again, George, this was | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
reprehensible behaviour. I know that. I know that Mr Diamond. I | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
know that, but I'm asking. Did nobody, what kind of firm were you | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
running? The second part of the scandal relates to the period 2007- | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
2008, by now the credit crunch is really biting, and banks, including | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
Barclays, are finding it increasingly difficult and | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
expensive to borrow money. In theory, this higher cost of | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
borrowing should be reflected in higher LIBOR submissions, except, | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
managers at Barclays decided to underreport the rate that they were | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
borrowing at, in order to make the firm look stronger. | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
Mr Diamond was asked repeatedly when he came aware this under-Rowe | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
reporting, or low-balling was going on. What month did you discomfort | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
low-balling was going on? This month. As late as this month. | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
and this is rather confusing, Mr Diamond also told MPs that it was | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
common knowledge at the time that this low-balling of LIBOR was | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
widespread among other banks. There were, afterall, prominent reports | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
by US regulators and journalists. And yet, apparently, Mr Diamond | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
hadn't considered investigating whether it was happening at his | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
bank. The final part of this scandal | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
relates to late October 2008, by now, financial institutions all | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
over the world are going Bill belly-up. In Britain, the | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
Government has had to pump billions into HBOS and RBS. And there is a | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
phone conversation between Paul Tucker, deputy Governor of the Bank | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
of England, and Bob Diamond of Barclays. In which, according to Mr | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
Diamond's note of the conversation, Mr Tucker tells hims that his | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
company's LIBOR submissions don't have to be that high, in other | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
words, doesn't have to be truthful about the cost Barclays is having | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
to pay to borrow money. What is it you thought Mr Tucker wanted you to | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
do? He was pointing out the problem. I was pointing out the problem | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
wasn't with Barclays, but with other submissions. Sorry, that's | :40:47. | :40:55. | |
too shorthand to say it. As I said, I didn't take it as a directive, I | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
took it as either a heads had-up that you are high, or an annoyance | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
that you are high. What I said is, I don't have the note in front of | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
me, I said the reality is that we at Barclays are reporting the rates | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
at which we bore ro. It certainly appears, given the number -- borrow. | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
It certainly appears, given the number of institutions who are | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
posting below us, and getting money from the Government, that they | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
weren't potion at these levels. This is graph showing Barclays' | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
LIBOR submissions relative to the other banks. Higher before the | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
telephone call, and then, before you can say "double my bonus", the | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
Ayr comes out of Barclays submissions -- the air comes out of | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
bash clees submissions relative to those banks. As Mr Diamond left the | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
political row continued. In the phone call, apparently, Paul Tucker | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
said Whitehall wanted the figures down. Was that a LIBOR reference to | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
a minister. And Labour said only a judge-led inquiry the scandal | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
should do. The Government says parliament should investigate. | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
Tomorrow the Commons will vote on this. | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
In a moment we will hear from two members of the select committee, | :42:04. | :42:11. | |
the Labour MP, John Mann, and the Conservative, Andrea Leadson. What | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
did we learn today, Paul Mason? much, this man ran a bank that | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
broke the law. He claims he knew nothing about it. Nothing about it | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
all the, until a month ago. Now the chairman of that committee, Andrew | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
Tyrie, said, tonight, he thinks that claim is implausible. He says | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
he has evidence that the FSA were worried about dime at the moment he | :42:32. | :42:39. | |
was made CEO of Barclays. We will - - about the time that he was made | :42:39. | :42:48. | |
CEO of Barclays. We will find out about that later. The it wasn't the | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
usual stuff you get from the select committees, they were precise. The | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
committee, as a structure was not able to pin Diamond down. What is | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
the issue? The issue is, not did Gordon Brown or Ed Balls order | :43:00. | :43:06. | |
LIBOR to be rigged, or Tucker, actually, Diamond, you saw it there | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
rode back from any suggestion that was indeed the case. The question | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
is, why did Mr Diamond's underlings think they had been instructed by | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
the Bank of England, when he said he didn't instruct them. We just | :43:16. | :43:23. | |
cannot get to the bottom of that. Let me ask the two of you, you sat | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
and cross-examined this man, did you feel you got the truth? | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
definitely not. It was astonishing. It really felt as though he had an | :43:32. | :43:38. | |
agenda, he knew exactly how to bat us back. It was very hard to lay a | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
finger on him. Even when we asked incredibly direct questions, like | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
precisely when did he know about the LIBOR rigging, and he said last | :43:47. | :43:55. | |
month ta, made him physically ill. This is man who started life in | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
banking himself. Did you think that? He came into block everything. | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
And of course, we don't have access. He did it pretty confidently too? | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
We don't have access to the documents, we are trying to ask | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
questions, and he's simply saying, he doesn't know. Constantly's paid | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
an awful lot of money to know nothing about the bank he was | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
running. Interestingly, you worked with Barclays, I'm not saying you | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
are anything more than the fact that you have worked at Barclays. | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
Is it plausible that the boss of Barclays claimed to know of this | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
pratice going on in other banks, but not in his own bank? It is not | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
plausible. It is either unbelievable incompetence, or he | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
would have known about it. This rate is the very interesting | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
question of whether this sort of forum is likely to make any | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
progress in a detailed investigation. And the decision | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
about that has to be made, is it tomorrow in the parliamentary vote? | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
Tomorrow afternoon. What's your view about that? I would have an | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
independent judicial inquiry into this. And I would let it take its | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
time. Because the detail is everything. I would let our | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
committee get on with some of the policy issues, for example, whether | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
we should bring forward the Vickers recommendations. Which I think | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
partly emanate from this. These are bigger issues, that we could | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
appropriately deal with, but to have a judicial inquiry into this. | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
Will you hear from Paul Tucker? Certainly next week. It sounds as | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
if you booked him in? We two don't, but the word we get is he will be | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
there next week. What is your view about a parliamentary inquiry, or a | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
judicial inquiry, as John Mann wants? The issue of a judicial | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
inquiry is one of speed. If you get a good judge, they are likely to be | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
busy at the moment. They have to get a team and terms of reference, | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
they will be six weeks behind where the Treasury committee is now. I | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
think there is merit in thinking whether there is the expertise in | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
the Treasury committee, but there is plenty of people to go and sk. | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
If you set up an independent inquiry, you have problems with | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
underlaps and overlaps and who is investigating what. If it expands, | :46:06. | :46:12. | |
does their brief expand or our's. I'm not sure about an independent | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
judicial inquiry. Which way will you vote? For the Government's | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
proposal, for a parliamentary inquiry. Despite your experience | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
today when you didn't get to the truth? The point is Diamond is just | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
extraordinarily well briefed on how to prevar Kate. He just kept | :46:26. | :46:32. | |
talking about the culture. You are talking about this extraordinary -- | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
you are just bad at cross-examining. Nobody is pursuing anything? We did, | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
but he's extraordinarily well- trained to going back to his | :46:40. | :46:46. | |
original case, he loves Barclays, it was fabulous culture with a few | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
bad eggs. You have to bear in mind the only documents we have, is the | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
handful of papers Barclays has sent us, and media articles. That is | :46:53. | :46:58. | |
what we are going on. We don't have access and we can't requisition the | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
documents from inside the banks. This is a huge scandal of fiddling | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
and corruption. Do you co-ordinate. Do you get together and say I'll do | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
this and you follow with that? Absolutely, of course we do. It is | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
not working very well? It is, if you go round what happened this | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
afternoon, we went very thoroughly through the three stages, the first | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
bit which was criminally negligent. Why didn't you get to the truth? | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
Because he is incredibly well briefed on how to prevent you | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
landing a punch. He is better briefed than you are? He's briefed | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
on how to not answer questions. What we failed to get from him was | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
a straight answer, what we need to do now is talk to people around him | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
and get answers from them. Are you shaking your head you don't agree | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
with it or have you something to say? I sat through the Barclays | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
conference call with Agius, where the Barclays institution refused to | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
answer questions about this. They said wait until tomorrow, and now a | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
man today, who doesn't work for bark closed circuit and no matter | :47:57. | :48:04. | |
how briefed he is, he doesn't want to sit on a programme here, not on | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
any of interest programmes or rivals. He does not feel | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
comfortable of answering the traditional journalist probing. Let | :48:13. | :48:19. | |
him come and answer. Nostradamus made no predictions for 2012, but | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
our science editor did. She said the discovery of the Higgs boson | :48:24. | :48:30. | |
would be announced this week, and lo, it came to past. As a layman I | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
would saying, I think we have it. You agree? | :48:33. | :48:42. | |
APPLAUSE So this means we are now much | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
closer to understanding how the universe works, if not Barclays' | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
precise role in it! By happy coincidence, David Willets, who we | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
were talking to earlier is also the minister for science, and escaped | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
his own select committee appearance today to hear the announcement. | :48:58. | :49:04. | |
What is so excite beg it? Did I go to the select committee as well, I | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
started the morning by discovering the secret of the universe, where | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
mass comes from, which is what the Higgs boson is about. It goes to | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
the earlier discussion, we are the beneficiaries of scientific | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
discoveries from previous generations. This is a very serious | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
discovery that we have made, that future generations will attribute | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
to us. That is one of the reasons why there is a link between these | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
things and as science minister you can help maintain T we are passing | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
on to new generations new discoveries and understandings of | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
the world, we can be proud of it. What is it, you can't see it, what | :49:38. | :49:44. | |
does it do? What it does. The fact that we have discovered that it | :49:44. | :49:50. | |
exists? You may need Brian Cox on this not me. The main thing is mass | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
is created when you hit a Higgs boson particle, that is where the | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
origins of mass are. They have been able to able to show how previously | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
where they weren't properly able to include mass in the standard they | :50:03. | :50:12. | |
are yum, it looks as if the -- therum, it looks as if there is now | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
empirical confirmation because they have discovered the Higgs boson | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
particles. That changes our lives does it? When they first discovered | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
DNA Watson and Ciark said it wouldn't change our lives -- | :50:27. | :50:34. | |
couldn't have said it would have changed our lives. The answer comes | :50:34. | :50:41. | |
back from experts, in future things some of these discoveries we can | :50:41. | :50:48. | |
tax them. You will be able to tax mass? There will be future | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
discoveries drawing on this discovery. That's t Kirsty gets to | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
grips with the army tomorrow, one almost feels sorry for them, good | :50:54. | :51:04. | |
:51:04. | :51:27. | ||
almost feels sorry for them, good Another warm and humid night. Grey | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
start for many on Thursday. But like the last few days, it will | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
brighten up. There will be some sunshine, but again, there will be | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
also some heavy and thundery downpours. Particularly by the | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
afternoon, across northern England. Again, some sunshine, will lift the | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
temperature noose the 20s. Parts of the Midlands, East Anglia and the | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
south-east, also likely to see a scattering of heavy downpours, | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
still very much hit and miss, not everywhere catching them. Large | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
parts of England staying dry. The showers here could be very | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
persistent. Generally dry and bright across Wales. A fresh feel | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
here with temperatures 17-18, the same goes for Northern Ireland. | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
Maybe a few more scattered showers, again some sunshine. North West | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
Scotland has enjoyed largely dry and fine conditions for the last | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
few days. Sunshine here, but the chance of one or two more showers | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
during Thursday, and showers also in southern parts of Scotland. By | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
Friday we are looking at wet weather moving across the country. | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
The likelihood of some very heavy rain lasting for a good part of the | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
day. Some uncertainty about exactly where. But there are warnings in | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
force already for the downpours, there is the real likelihood of | :52:36. | :52:40. |