20/07/2012 Newsnight

Tonight, thousands of refugees are now flooding out of Syria, after a

week of intense fighting. Government forces are battling to

retake key areas of the capital Damascus. We're on the border.

Here at Syria's main border crossing with Lebanon, there has

been a tide of Syrians, fleeing the violence that has now reached the

very heart of the capital, Damascus. We will hear from an activist, and

ask if the Government is helping the rebels.

The dark night of America, many killed in a lone gunman attack. Can

we ever understand the monstrous. We will ask a leading psychiatrist.

The Chancellor and the rest of us finding out the price of milk, as

farmers protest they are being ripped off by the big supermarkets.

These laid ease are queuing up to supply the breakfast tables, but is

it the farmers who are being milked try. Dry.

Thousands more refugees are streaming across the border between

Syria and neighbouring countries, it follows the bomb blast on

Wednesday, in which leaders of the regime's security apparatus were

targeted. Reports of heavy fighting in the capital, Damascus. The

United Nations, has, at last, reached some kind of agreement on

renewing its mission in the country for a month. While the rebel Free

Syrian Army claims the regime is now in its last days. We start in

Lebanon and report from the Syrian border.

On every border, at every crossing, Syrians are fleeing their country,

escaping the growing violence and uncertainty. At this main crossing

into Lebanon, everyone is carefully checked. Many of the vehicles are

family cars, full of children, full of their fears. The border guards

here tell us 18,000 crossed over in the past 48 hours. Some of the

Syrians are wealthy enough to stay in hotels, some are lucky enough to

have family members in Lebanon. But others don't know where they will

stay, or for how long. That's a risk for the Lebanese, who

have their own very delicate sectarian and ethnic balance to

worry about. All of Syria's neighbours worry

tensions will also cross borders, but Lebanon is especially risky, it

has already lived through its own civil war. Lebanon's politicians

and people take different sides in Syria's deepening conflict.

It's now a war that's reach the very heart of Damascus. Today,

after six days of the heaviest clashes in 16 months, Syrian forces

fought their way back into central neighbourhoods like Midan, saying

it was cleansed of terrorists. The rebels say it was only a tactical

retreat, in what they call the final battle for Damascus.

But the fight is far from over. Battles are still raging in many

parts of the capital. Syrian state TV showed pictures of

young men, they described as part of the called "Free Army", sprawled

across a road in another Damascus neighbourhood. Today the regime

buried three members of President Assad's inner circle, they were

killed on Wednesday, on stunning attack on a highly-guarded security

meeting. It was also a devastating blow to President Assad's authority,

in an aura of instability. Even his main ally, Russia, suggested the

President would be willing to step down, so long as it was in order.

TRANSLATION: There was a meeting in June, a final communique was for

the transition, the final communique was accepted by Bashar

Al-Assad, he appointed his representative to conduct the

negotiations with the opposition on that transition. In other words, he

agrees to go, but in a civilised manner.

State TV quickly denied the President was going anywhere, any

time soon. But rumours keep squirreling about

whether he's -- swirling about whether he's still in Damascus. If

there ever was a peace plan, it now seems irrelevant. In New York the

UN renewed the mandate of its monitoring mission for another

month. But it is too dangerous to do much monitoring now, and the

main players in this crisis are stuck in a war of words over what

to do next. Diplomacy has been lagging behind developments on the

ground. But it's not too late for diplomacy to catch up if the

Russians come on board, and they do what they did with Milosevic, which

is come and tell him the game is up, and get him out of there. Which

needs a lot of international support, possibly military

assistance also, to keep, to maintain order, and a co-ordinated

effort with the regional powers. This is a war with winners and

losers, in Syria and all of its neighbours.

The biggest losers are the Syrians now fleeing their country, and

those still trapped inside. Not knowing when and how this war

will end. Shortly before we came on air I spoke with Lis on the border.

Loot of people here have been talking about this week as if it

were a turning point s is that how it is being seen where you are?

These words "turning point" and "tipping point" often get used in

protracted conflicts like this. But for anyone who has followed the 16-

month uprising against Assad's rule, there is no question that this past

week has been absolutely a turning point. We have seen the clashes

that have been taking place in towns and villages across the

country, finally reaching the heart, the very heart of Damascus, and the

very heart of President Assad's inner circle. Every time I have

been to Damascus, it was largely a bubble, unaffected by the tensions

and the violence. But it has been growing steadily more unstable. And

now, the people, for example, the people we have been talking to here

today, who have been fleeing that violence, tell us that they simply

were too scared to stay on. I spoke to children who said they heard

loud explosions by night and day, of the helicopter gunship that is

the Government is again using for the first time against rebel forces

who are in central neighbourhoods of Damascus. They hear the

explosions and the shooting. One woman said she felt like a prisoner

in her own home, they didn't know who to trust. Whether the Free

Syrian Army or the Government. diplomacy does indeed grind on, but

is it your instinct that this is going to be settled by the gun?

world has been watching in horror, as Syria is engulfed by more and

more violence, more deadly violence, grotesque torture, horrific scenes

over the past 16 months. It has always been said there is only one

peace plan, the peace plan of Kofi Annan. That he is the envoy, and

no-one dared to say that the peace plan wasn't working, because the

reality is there is no other plan. If that fails, what is it? It's a

war. And quite frankly, that is what it is now. It is a war. It is

not just a war on the ground, it has turned into an increasing war

of words between all the main players in this crisis, who haven't

been able to agree on what they can do to resolve it.

I'm joined now in the studio by the Turkish ambassador to the UK, and

from Beirut by Dr Hassan Turkomani from the Syrian opposition group,

Building the Syrian State. How worried is turkey that we are not

just seeing this imploding but exploding, and all the neighbouring

countries, including your own, will suffer? All the signs indicate

there is a growing humanitarian situation in the country, and it is

now affecting the bordering countries, particularly Lebanon and

turkey. In the last two weeks, I think we had more than 15,000

refugees, and the number of refugees in Turkey is now over 43

though though we have eight camps and they are not sufficient enough,

so now we are building new camps to accommodate the newcomers, we are

very much concerned that this refugee situation will become in

the mass, that is, of course, very frightening. In what ways are you

helping the free Syrian army, they are being co-ordinated out of

Turkey, are you helping the weapons get through to them? We simply

support the democratic rights of the Syrian people, and we want to

find the solution to the problem in Syria, through peaceful means. That

is the reason why we have been supporting the opposition groups,

who have not chosen the violence. But the guns are getting in from

somewhere, aren't they, and Turkey is the obvious candidate? Not from

the Turkish borders, I can categorically reject the idea it is

going through the Turkish border. You have always said you want a

peaceful solution to this, have you now come to recognise this is, in

effect, a fight to the death for the regime? Yes wrecks want a

peaceful solution. The track we want to reach a solution should be

peaceful. I don't see violence as a solution, to start W it is not

going -- yes, we want a peaceful solution, the track we want to

reach a solution should be peaceful. We don't want the violence to make

everyone lose control of the situation, I don't think Turkey or

the regime or the international community will be able to play any

role if we descend to complete chaos. Isn't that, frankly, what's

happening, there is a lot of guns getting in, and people within the

Free Syrian Army are saying it is a fight for the future of Syria, and

it will be a fight, no matter what the diplomats say? I disagree with

them. They don't have the right to let us all be involved in this

fight. While I do understand the people's right to defend themselves,

however, using the army to overthrow the regime, and settle

the problems with the regime is not the right way. We want all parties

to stop fighting and a real ceasefire from everyone, and then,

hopefully, kick starting a political solution. But for that to

happen we need international consensus. We need Turkey to stop

sending arms through the borders. It is not true what the ambassador

is saying about Turkey supporting the democratic choice of the Syrian

people. They interfered politically when they decided to make my choice

for my representatives as a Syrian and say this is who represents me.

They interfered politically through the opposition. They allowed lots

of arms to go through the borders, whilst on the borders I spoke to

many Syrian officials and defecting soldiers and generals, they told me

how Turkey is helping in this. It is very disappointing, we want

Turkey's support, but for the people, and democratic choice, and

democracy doesn't come through arms. Let me put that to you, the guns

are getting through Turkey, perhaps it is understandable, and it is

understandable you don't want to say so, that is where they are

coming from? I can simply say it is the position of the Government that

we are not supporting the violent groups in Syria, who are trying to

find the democratic solution to the problem. But, we have been

supporting the opposition groups and we have been supporting the

rights of the Syrian people, the democratic rights of the people,

but only through peaceful means. We have been, that is true that we

have been helping several opposition groups to get together

in Turkey. To co-ordinate themselves. But not for the arms.

Are you very irritated by the way Russia has acted in this?

wouldn't say I'm irritated, but the international community needs to

show solidarity. And unfortunately the United Nations Security Council

has a big responsibility to take a decision about the the solutions of

the problems. It seems that some members of the United Nations

Security Council do not feel as the others do. That's the reason why we

are not reaching a decision there. You're sitting in Lebanon, your

thoughts are obviously with the people of Syria, but people in

Lebanon too are obviously very worried. We know about the kind of

fractious nature of that state. Are you worried that might spread to

where you are now? People are very worried here, indeed, some people

are still operating, on the day of the explosions there were still

operations in Tripoli. Many people are worried in Beirut. I met people

from Damascus, and they are extremely worried. I met people

from the opposition who walked through the heart of Damascus today

and yesterday, and said the only thing you can feel is absolute fear,

where is this going? They don't know where the authority is, who is

issuing the orders. If it descends into the chaos, it will spread

across to Lebanon and Turkey and Iraq, the fear is regional. The

heart of the fear is in Damascus, they are living in fear. We all

failed Syria. The international community, the Syrian opposition,

and indeed, first of all, the regime. I think we should all go

back to rally around one solution. I don't understand what happened

after Geneva's meeting. They all seemed to have agreed on something,

and suddenly we see some of them going to the Security Council, and

others talking about army the opposition again. That is not what

Syria needs right now. We need to rally around one solution and push

forward to it. We don't want it to become the subject of international

conflict, while both the regime and other parties are reinforcing their

position, while the rest of the world is fighting over Syria.

Thank you very much, we are running out of time.

There is something both utterly shocking and yet sadly familiar

about the events late last night in Aurora, Colorado. A young man,

presumably deeply troubled, arms himself and slaughters people to

find one day of infamiliary. There will be the puzzlement about gun

laws, but Anders Breivik proved America has no monopoly on the

crime. The puzzle is, as usual, whether anything could have stopped

Just after midnight last night, local time, 20 minutes after the

start of one of the most anticipated movies of the summer,

24-year-old James Holmes entered a cinema in Aurora, Colorado, from

the back door. As the audience watched Batman, he set off two

smoke bombs. Then he opened fire with an Assault Rifle, a shotgun

and two pistols, killing a dozen people, wounding more than 70.

suspect was dressed all in black. He was wearing a ballistic helmet,

a tactical balance list kal vest, a ballistic level, and a gas mask and

black tactical gloves. Holmes was arrested just outside the theatre,

he had dropped out of a PhD in neuroscience at the local

university. Aurora won't comment on his motive, but the New York police

Holmes apartment was subsequently found to be heavily booby trapped,

the injuries of some of the wounded are said to be critical. The death

toll of the latest American mass shooting could well rise. I'm

joined now by a leading forensic psychiatrist, and Dave Cullen, who

wrote the book, Columbine, about the High School killings there.

When these things happen, is there a common pattern in the kind of

people who do it? Yes, there certainly is. Invariably, the

people who do mass murder have got very strong anger, usually rage,

and most often that is distorted through the lens of paranoia. They

are blaming other people for the problems that are typically of

their own making. A second trait they share is a willingness to die,

and by the end of the day, 50% do die. What do you make of this

thought that Mr Holmes was acting as if he were the Joker, the enemy

of Batman in the movies, does that make any sense to you? It does. It

seems to me an identification with the anti-hero, and, of course, this

way of going about a mass murder, which I name, pseudo commando, in

1985, was created originally by the Texas tower shooter, Charles

Whitman, they take multiple weapons with them, they are prepared, as if

it is a tactical assault. We see that in all of his behaviour.

Cullen, when you heard the news, did you think, oh, it's just

another Columbine, it is the same kind of person, it is the same kind

of thing? No, not really. Because there are several different types,

and, like Park said, there are a lot of similarities, but there are

also different one. At Columbine we had two different types, Eric

Harris was a clinical psychopath, and Klibel was depressed. At

Virginia Tech we had Joe, deeply, mentally ill, probably out-of-touch

with reality, and then we have terrorists, and those seem to be

the major ties. The people of different types behave very

differently, and with driven drives. I'm always curious what's driving

this person, and we don't have a whole lot of clues yet. I mean, we

have possibilities, but the only thing it looks like we can say for

sure is he planned, and planned it in advance, but that is almost

always true, and he was ruthless about it. In the way he went about

it. But people from each of those different types can be ruthless. I

think it is still early to know. Dietz, I was struck listening to

President Obama today, talking about evil senseless violence, and

Mitt Romney spiking about a sense of helplessness. Is there --

speaking about a sense of helplessness, is there no policy

response from the politicians that would work in these situations, or

do we have to throw our hands up in the face of this kind of evil?

There will not be an effective policy response, because the things

that would be effective are outside the reach of Government. They have

to do with who will reproduce, how parenting will be done, who will

have access to weapons, who news coverage there will be of copycat

crimes of this sort? I disagree some what with what Dave said. I

believe all the examples he gave, except terrorists, were depressed,

paranoid people, or at least angry people. And we found that Klebold

and Harris, were both, when we did psychological autopsies on the

Columbine killers, there is a lot of similarity between the pseudo

commando mass murders, we have to recognise there are depressed,

paranoid, armed people, watching this and every broadcast about

these crimes, a few of whom will say, they can beat the body count.

I wonder what your thoughts r we can't not cover a major news event,

but some people, as Dr Dietz says, will be some how encouraged to beat

it? Yes, there are, I agree with most of what he said, of the early

part. That's one of those things, I think we need to be careful about

how we, in the media, portray these people, and not to sensationalise

it, not to make them appear heroic. But, I don't think there is any

putting that lid in the world we live in now and keeping it from

people, that this is happening. I think that information will be out

there, and the best that we can do is treat it responsibly. You know,

most of these people, as Dr Dietz said, most of them don't live

through it. Most of these, even the people who are after glory, they

tend to aid very ingloriously, often pathetically. Columbine was,

in their own minds, what they intended was a complete disaster,

not what they intended happened. They were trying to blow up the

school. People die in miserable ends, in most of these cases. If we

could communicate the truth of that, we are not going to stop all the

copycaters, but at least we will diminish the possibility they will

see it as an opportunity. One final thought, I know there will be a lot

of viewers in Europe who will say this is mostly an American disease

to do with gun control, what are your thoughts on, that when

obviously in Norway we had a pretty horrific crime last year? There

have been a number round the globe, and we have too plane. If we are

going to answer it sensibly, we have to compare -- too many. If we

are going to answer it sensibly we have to compare the US and nor way.

Both have widespread firearm ownership, the US is less orderly

and has more of a wild west mentality.

Thank you very much for your expertise and knowledge.

A few weeks ago a backbench Conservative MP, Nadine Dorries,

chastised the Prime Minister, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as

two posh boys who don't know the price of milk. Today the Chancellor,

George Osborne, did a bit of remedial work, by visiting a farm,

to hear firsthand about the difficulties many farmers are

having, as they claim the big supermarkets and major milk process

sores, are cutting prices to unsustain -- processors are cutting

prices to unsustainable levels. We have been to find out what it is

all about. Dairy farmers like Peter, cannot

simply take a day off. The cows must be milked, if not they get

sick, and that means vet's bills or worse. The sad economic truth is

every litre that comes from these cows loses the couple money. Why do

they carry on? Having invested so much in the herd and equipment,

they are just desperate for something to turn up.

If I could go back, I wouldn't have come into dairy, when my father-in-

law was young, they had a good life, they were still struggling, but not

dealing with what they are dealing with now. Everyone out there wants

a cut. Everyone makes money out of the dairy farmers, except the dairy

farmer. We just can't take it any more. What is wrong with this

industry depends entirely who you speak to, for the farmers it is a

simple matter, the supermarkets and the processors have all the kards,

they dictate the terms -- cards, they dictate the terms and say what

price they are going to pay, and they won't pay a penny more. For

others it is oversupply, too many farmers, too efficient and

producing too much milk. It is argued some of them will have to

move on and do something else. Farmers have taken to direct action,

with blockades all over the country. Many see Wim Duisenberg dairy as

one of the biggest criminal, they have been taking over by Muller in

January, and has cut the prices, and another 1.7p cut is due next

month. The reason farmers are finding things so difficult at the

moment, is the two price cuts that have happened through the spring

and summer, which were 2p each, adding up to 4p, that has come at

the same time as their costs of production have gone up. So, fuel

and fertiliser costs have gone up. And they have also had a period of

very bad weather, which has meant, in many dairy farming areas, the

farmers have had to bring their cows back inside into the sheds and

are feeding them full winter rations, their costs of production

have gone up. Those two factors together mean that from a place

where the average dairy farmer was probably at about break even, this

April they are now losing between 5p-6p a litre of milk that they

produce. The price that farmers get for milk,

per ly theer, is pretty much back at what it was in the mid-1990s,

the industry has responded by getting much more efficient. This

is what the average dairy cow was producing back in 200 0.

You can't take a holiday, you are here every day, seven days a week.

And yet, you are not making money on that? We haven't made any money

in the last 14 years. Do you see a prospect of a change?

None whatsoever. If the Government doesn't deal with it this time, and

the Government says their hands are tied. The Government needs to sit

in and give us an adjudicator. Saying these are reasonable terms

and these are not? And to say to the processors you can't do this to

farmer, make it fair, they can't drop the price when they feel like

it. Name and shame all the retailers doing it. So the pressure

is on everyone, for the supermarkets to show they are

paying a fair price. Today, the Co- Op, have announced they will

increase what they pay. Earlier in the week, Asda was tell MPs, they

too, will increase what they pay. I'm delighted with the press

release from Asda, that milk is going up 2-3p to the farmer. How

did we get here in the first place. 2010 you slashed your prices in

Asda from �1.53 for four pints of milk to a �16789 all very well for

Asda to run milk as a loss leader who will pay for it? The farmer.

have a duty and obligation at both endss of the chain, we have a duty

and obligation to the farmer, and the customer, particularly at a

time when they are finding it difficult to make ends meet.

the ends aren't meeting on this hold anything sury. There may be

some gold mine dairy arms in Britain, this clearly isn't one of

them. -- dairy farms in Britain, this clearly ain't one of them.

you are hiding any Rolls-Royces you are doing it very well? I'm waiting

for my car to pack up, the bull had a go it. We're in Glasgow with the

review show in a minute. Tonight on the review show we have

a proper knees up out east, with the new exhibition of David

Bailey's photographs of his old stomping ground, the highlights of

the Olympic Park, and the sporting extravaganza, and new films in the

likes of Mike Leigh and Ramsay ra.. Join me and my guests in a -- Lynne

Ramsay, join me and my guests in a moment.

That's all from Newsnight tonight, we couldn't leave you without mark

ago very good for the anglo-Saxons in France, Mark Cavendish won

today's stage of Tour de France, and barring some kind of disaster,

Bradley Wiggins is more or less assured, of winning the whole event

on Sunday. He will be the first- ever winner.