23/07/2012 Newsnight

Tonight, is the way to crack down on clever but legal tax avoidance

schemes, to name and shame those who profit from them. If there

really is something so wrong with the schemes, why not change the

law? You also need to remember to do

your tax return on-line, pay anything you owe by the 31st of

January...$$NEWLINE For those avoiding the tax man, the Treasury

insists it is going to get tough. What can Government actually do.

Treasury Minister, David Gauke s here to explain, and tell us why he

thinks even paying tradesmen in cash is morally wrong.

Female genital mutilation, the horrific butchery of young girls

practised in some communities, is happening here in Britain. It is

against the law, so why have there been no convictions. What would you

do if the girl had blue eyes and blonde hair, would it be carrying

on in the UK. Who would have thought problems in

the lovely Spanish region of Valencia might rattle the whole of

Europe? Paul Mason? Europe's politicians are staring at

a 400 billion bail out they don't have the money for.

On another day of fear and fighting on frontlines of Syria's war with

itself, the Assad regime confirms it has chemical weapons. We have a

special report from the Syrian border.

TRANSLATION: They are trying to carry out sectarian cleansing, to

push all the Sunni Muslims out of the villages, to create their own

Alawite state. Good evening, the Treasury Minister,

David Gauke, reminded us today that those who pay their taxes are

extremely irritate bid those who don't. In talking about targeting

aggressive tax avoidance schemes, which apyre to be legal, what does

the Government really have in mind. If the schemes are so dodgy, why

are they not outlawed. What of the views expressed on tomorrow's front

pages, that paying traits tradesmen in cash is morally wrong. The

minister will speak in a moment. First Allegra Stratton explains

some of the Government's thinking. For the Olympic family visiting

London the next three weeks should fly by in the lanes, the superfit

and the superfit's hangers on, able to pass through the capital on

lanes uncluttered by mere mortals. Going way back, the superrich have

also enjoyed what could be called the economy zil lanes, finding the

trap doors and escape hatch doors that slice through normal tax

paying behaviour. A cut in the top rate of tax from 50p to 45p in the

last budget suggesting an even smoother ride for the elite. Far

from it, the Government insists. are building on the work we have

already done to make life difficult for those who artificially, and

aggressively reduce their tax bill. These schemes damage our ability to

fund public services, and provide support to those who need them.

They harm businesses by distorting competition, they damage public

confidence, and they undermine the actions of the vast majority of

tax-payers, who pay more in tax as a consequence of others enjoying a

free ride. Jimmy Carr getting out of his car,

and here just being revealed to have enjoyed quite a cheap ride, if

not a free one. He was advised to pay his salary into a K2 offshore

trust, which saw a lower rate of tax. Legal and fully disclosed to

HMRC, the Prime Minister, nonetheless, described it as

morally wrong, the comedian apologised. Government was already

taking action to stamp out avoidance, with a new general anti-

avoidance rule, met by fines of a million pounds if flouted. On

Sunday research emerged showing �13 trillion is held in offshore

accounts around the world. Today's consultation proposes closing some

more bits of road. The Government believes 14% of all unpaid income

tax is due to aggressive avoidance schemes. This is behaviour not

illegal, but not very sporting, to use an on-trend adjective. It is

for those who contriumph to short change the Exchequer. HMRC will get

new powers to discover details of wealthy clients take advantage of

schemes, and discover how all the tax avoidance schemes work, not the

ones only criticised. If penalised, they will provide more information.

There are all these tax accountants across the country, who live a

little bit close to the edge, in terms of what's legal tax avoidance.

What they are trying to do with this consultation is ask those tax

advisers, who I like to think of as the mice in this scenario, to tell

the cat, which is HMRC, a bit earlier on in the chase about where

they are planning to run away to. And HMRC can give an earlier

opinion as to whether or not this is going to be legal or not.

you see why people think that these practices should just be made

illegal rather in this ambiguous territory of being morally

outrageous? They do make things illegal after the fact. HMRC spends

a lot of time in the Finance Bill trying to close loopholes. This

scheme would give earlier notice of what the intended events are, in

terms of getting round the loopholes. The issue around bring

anything law, is that law, people, accountants, barristers, will find

ways around that law. It will be game of cat and mouse, as you find

a way through, Government then has to refine that law and close it

down. That is very expensive for parliament, it takes a lot of time,

keep trying to think about it and closing down what the next route is

going to be. One of the significant things about

this morning's speech is it is a Conservative minister making the

case for tax avoidance clampdown, not a Lib Dem. The Chancellor and

Prime Minister have said plenty in this area, but orderly it is the

Lib Dems who get to announce the new policies. The trouble is, since

the budget and the cut in the 50p rate, the Tories know the sense

that they are the friends of the rich and powerful is even greater.

It is they who have to be seen to be getting back as much as they

have given away. Some critics think the Government is just skimming the

surface. A significant percentage of the world's tax havens are

actually UK overseas territories or crown dependencies. For example,

Jersey, the Isle of Man, the Kayman eye lafrpbds. These are places we -

- Kayman islands, these are the places we have the right to

legislate for. It is something to keep the press aware, or in the

press, aware of what the Government want. But in reality, it does have

no teeth to it. The Government wants the superrich,

including even donors and friends in the City, to think they are

running out of road. Their efforts may be no match for the sat-navs of

the very wealthy. The Treasury Minister, David Gauke,

is here to give his account of what be achieve pbl in tackling all of

this. You talked about name -- achievable

in tackling all of this. You talked about naming and shaming the

advisers, go ahead, what are the names of these people? I'm not in a

position to run through a list of names here and now. Why not? That

is not how the system currently works, what we are looking at doing

is strengthening the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes rules, so

there is more information available to HMRC at an early stage. Where

HMRC are able to take action if they need to change the law, or we

need to change the law in order to close a loophole, we can do so at

an early stage. If a scheme is ineffective and very often they are,

HMRC can take litigation action at an early stage and warn off people.

When you talk about naming and shaming, you don't really mean that,

we have due process in this country, and you can't have a Government

minister or HMRC tarting people and saying, publicly, we don't like how

you do your tax stuff, you do it privately and it ends up in a tax

tribunal? When something goes to a tax tribunal, and HMRC succeeds,

they are in a position to put out information about these are the

promoters, who for example have promoted a scheme that doesn't work.

After? Yes. And next time someone is approached and says this is a

fantastic scheme, they have the ability to look and see, here is

the same of someone, this person has -- the name of someone who is

promoting dodgy schemes. That information ought to be out there.

That is wonderful, except for one flaw, the backlog is 20,000 tax

tribunal cases which HMRC says at the current rate could take 38

years to clear up. You could put the money in getting people through

tax tribunals and then name and shame? That story isn't right. It

sounds a lot, but there are a lot of lead cases, when one case is

dealt with, a lot of other cases fall away. There isn't a particular

problem that we need to be overly worried about. There is a new

system in place that is settling in all right. I don't think there is a

big issue with that. HMRC have got more resources to deal with tax

avoidance and evasion, than they have had in the past. The focus is

to a greater extent on avoidance and evasion, they have the

capability. They are having a good run in terms of litigation, a lot

of these schemes are failing. HMRC are having a lot of success here.

We want to put out more information to tax-payers, so they can see if a

scheme isn't working. Also, that we are able to respond quickly f we

need to close down a scheme. I want to talk to you about tomorrow

morning's front pages, you have already seen the Telegraph saying

it is morally wrong, attributed and quoted to you, to pay tradesmen

cash in hand? What does that mean f the window cleaner comes round you

can't pay them in cash? Of course you do and people will continue to

do. The specific points, I'm not sure the article reflects that. The

specific point I was making is when a tradesman says, here is a 20%

discount on your bill f you pay me cash-in-hand, that is facilitating

the hidden economy. That is as big a problem in terms of loss to the

Exchequer as tax avoidance. That is meaning that revenue isn't being

paid that should be paid. You have never done, that unlike millions of

people presumably across Britain? have never said to a tradesman if I

pay you cash can I get a discount, no. Do you think any of your

colleagues have done that? I don't know. If people Diamonds Will Do

that, they have to do so with -- do that -- if people do that, they

have to do it with the recognition taxes will be higher for the rest.

That hidden economy is a large part of the issue. Do you think the BBC

has got it wrong in paying some people through service companies,

they shouldn't do it? I think the point I would make on that is that

it does depend on the specific circumstances. There are perfectly

reasonable circumstances where someone may be paid through a

service company. But if, as a matter of course, an employer,

whether the BBC or anybody else, pays people who are essentially

employees, working full-time for them, not going off to other

organisations, through service companies, for the purposes of

reducing national insurance contribution liability, I think

that is wrong. You think the BBC may have been doing this? I'm not

in a position to comment on the specific circumstances of an

individual case. If you try to get round the usual tax system that

applies to employees, but using service companies instead, so you

pay less in national insurance contributions, then there clearly

is artificial tax avoidance. That is wrong. One final quick question,

which also falls within your gambit, the Trade Minister in charge of

HSBC, when it was accused of money laundering, a serious offence,

taken up very seriously in the United States. When do you think he

should give an account of what he knew and when he knew it? I'm sure

Lord Green will give a full account at the appropriate time. I'm sure

he will want to respond at the right time. And you should do.

Allegations have clearly been made against HSBC. But, yeah, I think

Lord Green is someone with a reputation for integrity, I'm sure

he will want to set out his case in due course. You would like to hear

it? I'm sure he will set out his case in due course.

Now, thousands of women and girls living here in the UK have been

subjected to the practice of female genital mutilation, the custom of

FGM, as it is known, is widely practised in some ethnic minority

communities in Britain, and made illegal 30 years ago. Since then

not a single prosecution has been brought. Now there are reports that

some young girls are brought to Britain to be mutilated.

We have been investigating, on learning of this report, the head

of the Crown Prosecution Service has said he is determined to find

way to prosecute those guilty of cutting young girls and some. Some

of the imimages in this report are explicit, you may find them

upsetting. Parliament outlawed female genital

mutilation nearly 30 years ago. Specialist units were set up at

major hospitals throughout the country to help those already

mutilated. Later, it was made an offence to

take a British-born girl abroad for the purposes of mutilation.

And yet, thousands of girls in the UK today are still at risk.

My legs were spread, I thought this is not right, then I felt this pain,

I remember just screaming and I think everyone was just shocked, it

was like I had 50 pairs of hands cover my mouth my nose, I was

fighting, fighting, fighting. I can hear it the sound, just the cutting.

Emma explained she was 14 when she was taken from Brixton to Sierra

Leone to be cut. She's at the FGM clinic at St Thomas's, because

she's about to get married and she's worried. I realise a part of

me was musing, then I started to feel -- missing, and then I started

to feel very different from anybody else. If I'm with all my

girlfriends, I feel different. There are certain things that they

can feel that I may never get to experience. Comfort Momoh, the

country's expert on FGM, says most of the women she sees has what's

known as Type 3. This is a typical example of Type 3, as you can see

the clitoris is missing here, and the closure here, and leaving a

small opening there. Out of which urine, menstrual blood, everything

has to come. Even having sexual intercourse will be so painful. And

for some women to achieve penetration can take up to six

months, unfortunately. She travels the UK explaining how to repair

women who have been cut. To ease sexual intercourse and childbirth.

And finds that the facilities available for the task vary.

England we have about 17 clinics that support women and girls. I do

travel a lot. I provide support to other midwives, doctors, and

professionals, but I feel that in Scotland they are not ready for the

number of immigrants that they are receiving and they need lots of

support. Scotland's experience with

communities who practice FGM is very new. It was only ten years ago,

with the Government's refugee dispersal policy, that the tower

blocks of Glasgow filled with new immigrants, from those countries,

like Somalia, where women are routinely mutilated, in the name of

purification. To ensure that they experience no

sexual pleasure. Having intercourse was more painful

than giving birth. I did shout and scream, but he didn't care, all he

wanted to know was if I'm a virgin or not. The Africans, some of them

believe it is something that should be done, like every woman needs to

be circumcised. Others don't believe in it.

Faceded with a new population of thousands of mutilated women, and

as many children at risk, the Scottish Government rushed through

laws, some years after they were passed in England. Making FGM

illegal here, and for parents to take their children abroad to do it.

Nicky Loughran, a lawyer specialising in asylum, meets with

immigrants regularly. She says she knows the law forbidding FGM is

being broken. We cannot assume it suddenly stops when family crosses

a border, that they suddenly lose their culture of centuries. And

they suddenly become "British" in their way of thinking and in their

attitude to their daughters, and in their attitude to virginity and

monogamy, cleanliness, all reasons, all stated reasons for continuing

circumcision in girls. Do they know the law, do they know it is illegal

in this country? No, I don't think so. People need to know the law

will be enforced. There hasn't been a single

prosecution against FGM in Scotland, or in the UK as a whole.

Ayanna told me of two recent incidents of girls being cut in

Glasgow. One was three, and the other one was just about two weeks.

By whom? Mostly by the elderly women, the parents' mums. What

method do they use? Scissor, blade or a sharp knife. Who is making the

community feel this way, is it the women or the men? It is the choice

of the man, if the man is wanting to marry a woman, he needs a woman

that has been circumcised. So they force the women to circumcise their

daughters, in order for them to marry their daughters.

What do the men say? In a local hangout for Somali men, I asked

them, do they really want their women mutilated? No, most of them

said, it is their mothers who want it. Not the woman, it is the mother

of the children, they do their children. Others said they didn't

much care either way. If you want to do it, you can do it, if you

don't want, you don't do it, you know.

You wonder why the two sexes don't talk to one another. Some mothers

they cannot be understanding. group of Somali women, all who have

been cut, say they wish the authorities would do more to help.

By getting the anti-FGM message across. If the authorities can help

us to make these people to stop t I would be very happy. Since I came

here I have never heard about it. I have had two years in this country,

I have never heard of this. They need classes telling what happens,

what is right, what is wrong. women also want help when they

return to their country of origin for holidays, where many

mutilations take place. The authorities, they say, could

threaten to check girls on their return.

It is dangerous if families go back to Africa, because the child will

spend time with the grannies more than you. They may take your

daughter, there is nothing you can do about it. All they will tell you

is they have done it, that's it, that's it.

Many newly-arrived mothers, who have been mutilated, don't attend

antenatal clinics. Doctors are confronted with a woman who needs

to be unstitched urgently, only when she arrives at the hospital in

labour. If a baby girl is born to a mother who comes from a community

that routinely does GFM mutilation. But should that child be placed on

an "at-risk" register and kept up with. When I spoke to the midwives

concerned in Glasgow I was told I couldn't, but was assured that

policies and protocols are in place. When I wanted to interview social

workers to ask they keep an eye on girls who could be at risk, I was

told there were no social workers available, with sufficient

experience of FGM. When I asked to talk to head

teachers, I was told I couldn't, there were no guidelines issued to

schools on FGM. Why does no-one want to talk?

wish that people did talk about it more, so that the subject is raised.

I'm amazed that you are meeting a wall of silence from the very

professionals that I would think would really want to grapple with

it, in the best interests of the child.

Is the situation any better across the border in England? Where laws

against FGM were introduced back in the 1980s.

A lot of people thought it was taboo, a lot of people would be

like it's women's bits, you shouldn't be talking about that in

public. A group of schoolgirls, here in Bristol, are so frustrated

by the way people don't talk about FGM, that they have made their own

film. The Silent Scream depicts a family

where the parents are at odds over whether to mutilate their youngest

daughter, whom the older sister is trying to protect. We live in the

21st century, things have changed, can't you see that. Break-away from

our tradition. Who will want to marry her if she doesn't. Men don't

want it. That is what you say, Those statistics show how little

the Government is doing to stop FGM. They are so terrified, and they are

using cultural sensitivity as a barrier to stop themselves from

really doing anything. What would you do if the girl had blue eyes

and blonde hair, would FGM still be carrying on in the UK. Do you have

a message for David Cameron? grow a pair and do something about

FGM! If you can't handle the issue, then there is no point of you doing

your job. They say the majority of women in

their community are mutilated, and that the girls get cut at FGM

parties in Bristol. They have the parties like all in one go, all the

girls come together with the parents, the party is because it is

cheaper and get it all over at the same time. Who is doing the

cutting? Either the mothers, or they get the mum who is experienced

in cutting, an elder in the community to come and do it T

Their film ends with the fact that everyone finds bewildering.

At Scotland Yard they say they have had 82 incidents of FGM reported to

them. Why don't they prosecute? not necessarily sure that the the

availability of a stronger sense of the likelihood of being prosecuted

will necessarily change it for the better.

The police claim that the lack of prosecutions is due, in part, to

the difficulty in investigation. In France, where there have been some

100 convictionings for FGM, all school-aged children are inspected.

Why don't we do that here? convictions for FGM, why don't we

do that here? Inspection in our times could be considered a form of

abuse. We need to be careful with the law in this country that we

should not encourage behaviour towards a child, against their will,

even in their personal interest, if that behaviour itself amounts to

something that is child abuse. And that has been the received

wisdom in this country for nearly 30 years.

Meanwhile, the latest figures released on FGM in the UK suggest

that the number of mutilations taking place is increasing.

Tomorrow Sue will be reporting on how France takes a much tougher

line on FGM than the UK. We will have a special studio debate,

including the Home Office Minister, we will be asking what more needs

to be done to stop FGM. Well, it was groundhog day, one more time

again today on the European money markets, as the long-running soap

opera of the euro, again unsettled nervous traders. It was the region

of Valencia, looking for cash from the Spanish Government, pushing

Spain's bond yields into the disaster zone. And pushing down the

major stock market measure down by 5% at one point. Paul Mason has

been looking at the chronic de disease that won't go away. What

unsettled the markets today? people who decided who wants to

hold Spanish debt, they said this economy is shrinking by 1.5% per an

number, the regions are slowly going bust, they are -- per year,

the regions are slowly going bust, they provide merge he is services

and the Government is coming out with one statement of denial after

another. This is the cost of borrowing on the market over the

past six months. Today, at 7.5% is the highest it has ever been in the

eurozone, it is a signal where the time may come where Spain can't

borrow on the markets. That had an impact on Spanish stock markets,

the shares fell by up to 5%, and the Government stepped in and

banned short selling. We remember short selling from the Lehman

Brothers days, that is a signal of crisis. The German stock market

fell 3%, some German banks were hammered. Greece topped off the day

with a one-day fall of 7%, it would be remarkable if it were not a time

where it keeps on happening. It is still startling how Greece can

still unsettle the markets? Greece, the noises coming from

German politicians, unnamed sources in the IMF, all saying the new

Government, the coalition of everybody but the left supposed to

sort things out, it isn't happening fast enough, the fiem time may come

to pull the plug on Greece. It is more uncertainty. What about Spain?

It has to borrow 150 billion euros in two years, another 150 billion

for sister, another 160 billion caused by overborrowing, the deep

trepidation in Spain that they can't do it. A 400 euro bail out,

that is what it would need, is money the ruen European Union just

doesn't have at the moment. We have -- the European Union just doesn't

have moment. We have ratings agency talking about Germany and Holland,

talking about downgrading your sovereign debt rating because of

this. Lovely, thank you very much. With me now is Megan Green, and the

economist Ken Rogoff also joins us. The Spanish economy minister is

saying Spain doesn't need a full bail out, do you think he's right?

I don't it will turn out they don't need a bail out. Spain will end up

needing money. Things are clearly going down hill. The Spanish rekals

transabout accepting a bail out, German ambivalence about giving one,

and France's dubts about having a political union, all mean we can't

get aic -- Downing Street about having a political union, all means

we can't have but have Downing Street about this. Surely the whole

European economy isn't dependant on a few Spanish municipalities paying

their bills? You have Catalonia, the economy the size of Portugal

that might need a bail out from Spain. Their public debt is

untenable, but its external debt position is completely

unsustainable, I don't see any way that Spain can afford a bail out.

When Spain gets a bail out, unfortunately, Italy is right

behind it. The big picture here, we have been talking about this, all

of us, with monotonous regularity for a few years, is the big picture

there is no structural solution to the eurozone's problems, because it

was never conceived to deal with this, and the politicians haven't

really got a clue? Nobody knows. They clearly need much more of a

political union, eventually, to stablise things. They have to put

that on the map, they have to put that on the horizon for anything to

work. You need unlimited support here, that doesn't have credibility

without movement towards a political union. I think they have

a lot of cards to play. I would be very reluctant to say it is about

to fall apart tomorrow. The problem is, it is such an existential risk,

nobody knows how it will play out f it does blow up, it really unnerves

markets. They are nowhere near settling things, because they just

don't have agreement on the fundamentals. Aren't they on the

road, they say, to some kind of political union. We have gone

through the French election, we have had all the nice warm words,

they constantly tell us they are on the road to sorting it. They have

solved the immediate problem, and in the long-term there will be this

union that you talk about? I think the French election was a giant

step backwards, the French basically rejected a lot of the

movement towards a more centralised Europe, and yet, there is no

solution in the long run without doing that. I think it is clearly

that this experiment of trying to have the euro ahead of the

political union was not a good idea. Either it is going to blow up, or

they are going to move towards union. All these financial

engineering solutions, the euro bonds, the European Central Bank

coming in, they are tempising measures. Don't think it is

necessarily going to end now. These temporising measures, they could

work for a while, this could drag out for years. That is a happy note.

Megan, you were nodding through that, you agree with that?

Political union is the first step, they really need a banking and

fiscal union, and then the ECB might be willing to actually step

in and provide some support as a bridge. Unfortunate he loo, all of

the countries in the eurozone aren't agreed on the end game, or

on any of the details. Haven't we got used to it, in a way, this

stuff about kicking the can down the road, maybe they can do that

for the next eight years? I think Kenneth is right, they are going to

buy time with a number of policy rabbit that is they pull out of

hats. We are going to lurch from crisis to crisis the euro zone

isn't -- eurozone isn't about to fall apart, but if you take

everything to extremes there are only two possible outcomes, it

disintegrates or moves towards closer union. The core of all this

is Germany, and what they are prepared to do and what their

Supreme Court finds constitutional to do? That's right, the German

constitutional court is waiting until September, they are on summer

vacation, to rule whether the latest bail out will be legal. The

German politician would argue they are already skirting that they can

do constitutionally. I agree with Megan, they need a fast fiscal and

banking union, that is saying they are in a political union. You need

legitimacy for that, it has to come at every level, it is a mess.

The Syrian Government has publicly admitted what many other

Governments in the region already knew, they have chemical weapons.

But they said they would be use the only against foreign agressors, not

against their own civilian population. It is not much of a

comfort, however, especially as they are on record as blaming

foreign agressors for much of the trouble in the first place.

Today, they are watching the destruction in Syria on TV, but

they have lived through it themselves. Some have been damaged

beyond repair. This rebel fighter is now recuperating in a flat

across the border in Turkey. He lost his leg to a schrapnal wound,

after the house he was sheltering in his home province, was shelled

by a Government tax. TRANSLATION: I was moved to the

field hospital. This bone was smashed, they put a metal plate in

there. And also in this food, my left knee was smashed too, and they

put wire to keep it straight, like that I was moved to Turkey, but

they didn't operate. I spent five- and-a-half months in the hospital

here. And then I pound I had gangrene.

Before the war he was a decorator, he will not be able to do that

again. This man, who arrived two days ago, worked in a clothes shop,

he wasn't a fighter, just a protestor. But he still got shot in

the stomach, he says, by the pro- regime militia, the Shabiha, the

bullet, from a Russian-made heavy machine gun, ripped through his

intestines. TRANSLATION: They were shooting

everyone who left their house, not just me, but everyone they saw in

the street, the whole area was surrounded by the Shabiha. And

anyone who left the house was shot. They are all from Hama province, in

central Syria, but the war is also going on much closer. Even in the

part of Syria you can see from the parliamentary party window.

-- the apartment window. There has been talk of a buffer zone along

the hills of the border, but Turkey and its western allies have balked

at the idea. Today smoke is rising, apparently from Syrian army

shelling of rebel positions. The land behind me in northern Syria is

still a battleground there are villages and stretches of

countryside that have been in rebel hands for months. Inbetween the

main roads and some towns are still controlled by the Government. The

members' hopes are pinned partly on establishing a single, unbroken

expanse of territory from which they could advance, they haven't

achieved that yet. Today fighting continued in the northern city of

Aleppo, with a Government tank set on fire, and rebel fighters moving

through the streets. As they were celebrating their advance, there

was a veiled warning to outside powers, from a Government spokesman

in the capital, Damascus, acknowledging, for the first time,

Syria's chemical weapons stockpile. TRANSLATION: Chemical weapons will

not be used during the crisis in Syria, irrespective of developments.

These weapons are stored and safeguarded by Syrian forces. They

will not be used at all, unless Syria is attacked by foreign forces.

But even without foreign intervention, which has effectively

been ruled out. The regime's days, most believe, are numbered. Western

powers are already considering a post-Assad Syria. The regime will

fall, but it will leave Syria in a difficult position. We need to

focus on what to do the day after, we don't know when that day will

come, but it will come. For the 2,500 Syrians in this sprawling

refugee camp in southern Turkey, that day can't come soon enough,

although they don't know what they will return to. Many of the people

in this camp have been here for more than a year, they hope with

the rebels' recent successes that they Maysoon be able to go hom.

There are fears that even the fall of the regime in -- home. There are

fears that even with the fall of the regime in Damascus, may not end

the conflict in their countries. In in this tent is a young Sunni

Muslim who fled from the heartland of President Assad's Alawite sect a

week ago. He fears his family may suffer if he shows his face.

TRANSLATION: They are trying to carry out sectarian cleansing, to

push all the Sunni Muslims out of the villages, to create their own

Alawite state. It is a new plan, when we left everyone left, no

women, no children, the area is deserted.

Some think that Bashar Al-Assad will make a final stand in his

family region along the coast. It is unlikely he will take up the

offer from the Arab League of safe passage out of the country.

Whatever happens, this war will alter relations between Syria's

Sunni majority, and the Alawite minority, forever. TRANSLATION:

Before the revolution relations with the Alawites were normal,

after the revolution is changed. If we go on the protest and chant,

they will come from the next village and shoot us, for them it

is God, Syria and Assad, for them he's like God. Back in the flat in

southern Turkey, the wounded rebels are cared for by a dentist from

another Syrian minority, he's a Christian, and supports the

uprising, but doesn't trust the opposition's exiled leadership, the

Syrian National Council. He's worried about sectarian in a post-

Assad Syria. TRANSLATION: The force which is dominating the Syrian

National Council has the same mentality as the regime. That force

is the Muslim Brotherhood. And they are a sectarian group, who base

everything on religion. They treat the population like children. We

have many secular people in the National Council, highly educated

people, but they are sidelined by the Muslim Brotherhood, who want to

control everything. Syria's rebels have fought hard, but it is not yet

clear who will profit most from their struggle, or what new Syria

will emerge. The BBC's commentator has just made

it into Aleppo, and a short while ago gave us his assessment of the

situation there, he was speaking on a videophone. What you are looking

at are burning barricades set up by hundreds of rebel fighters who have

just moved into the city itself, from the Aleppo countryside. We

have to use night vision, which explains the picture quality, just

because it is unsafe to turn major lights on. The rebel fighters were

following orders, and poured in from various towns and cities

around the Aleppo countryside, because they believed...there as

many as six neighbourhoods now up in arms against the regime. Today

we saw shelling, certainly of one of the districts, and the sound of

heavy gunfire. They feel they have the initiative, the truth is, they

are still outmanned and outgunned by the Syrian army, they are

waiting to see how they will respond in this particular area.

Why does Aleppo matter? It is Syria's second largest city, and

the economic hub, it accounts for half of all industry and commerce

for the country. If, and it is a large if, President Assad were to

lose power here, that would present a significant blow to his control

of the country. Our apologise for the poor sound quality.

I have also been speaking to Melissa Feming of the UN refugee

agency, UNHCH. What are your people on the ground selling you about the

situation in Sir -- telling you about the situation in Syria now?

The situation in Syria has been very tense for a time. Now the

deadly violence is spreading, it has spread to Damascus now. Once

considered a haven for people inside the country trying to escape

silence from homes. Now what is happening is people are fleeing

Damascus in droves. We saw, just last week, in one go, in two days,

18,000 people fleeing across the border, into Lebanon. We are

reporting tonight allegations of sectarian cleansing of non-Alawites

in the area around there, do you have any information on that or

similar examples of the killings of people, just because of their faith

or background? UNHCR does have 250 staff inside Syria, we do not have

staff in that location, so we can't coroborate that. But Iraqis, the

people that we have been taking care of, the refugees that have

been, for many years, seeking shelter and safety inside Syria,

have now been bombarding our hot- lines with tales of terror,

actually many of them feel targeted, they say they have been getting

death threats, others say they are terrified by the violence, they

want to move back to Iraq a place they were not ready to go until now.

But bus loads of Iraqis are now going back home. Into all this mix,

we heard from the regime theself today, they have confirmed they

have chemical weapons. I wonder how that -- regime themselves today,

they have confirmed they have chemical weapons, I wonder how that

affects your duty of care for your staff? We are concerned for our

staff, most of our staff are Syrian nationals. 250UNHCR staff, the

majority coming from the region. Many actually already deciding to

flee. Chemical weapons, that would be the absolute worst possible

scenario. We have no actual plans for that taking place, but we do

have stockpiles, huge warehouses full of equipment and full of basic

needs for people who are displaced, that is really what UNHCR is all

about. If, as you said, there are some 80,000 Iraqis who are worried,

having gone to Syria for safety, many now thinking of going back

home to Iraq, the scale of this, in terms of the overall Syrian

population, and the strain that will put on neighbouring countries,

we haven't seen anything like this in that region for quite some time?

Certainly in that region, this is quite an operation. What we are

seeing is Syrian displacement, inside the country, there could be

as many as one million to 11.5 million Syrian citizens who have --

1.5 million Syrian citizens who have fled their homes and crossed

border, they are difficult to reach, they are staying with people they

know or family or relatives, but the supplies will fast run out,

this is becoming an increasingly desperate situation. Every day, at

least 1,000 people are crossing international borders to seek

shelter and safety in other countries. Just a quick look at the

front pages. The Telegraph has the morally wrong act of paying

That's all from us tonight. We will be back with the special report on

female genital mutilation tomorrow, female genital mutilation tomorrow,

good night. Sizzling day it was across southern

parts of the UK. Different further north, some cloud and outbreak of

rain. That is the story again as we go through Tuesday, with the north-

south divide, outbreaks of rain for Northern Ireland, Scotland, the far

north of England. Further south, with the clear blue skies, the

light winds and sunshine, temperatures again will sore. By

mid-afternoon we are looking -- soar, by mid-afternoon we are

looking for high temperatures. In the beaches there will be cooling

sea breezes, temperatures there could be several degrees lower.

Pleasant enough. A nice day for most of Wales, away from the far

North West. Where there will be cloud and heavy rain for a time

across parts of Northern Ireland. Particularly down in Armagh. Dry

towards the north coast, the north western half of Scotland

brightening up nicely, further south further outbreaks of rain.

Some dry weather, esently, a little cloud around -- eventually, a

little cloud around. The heat continuing through Wednesday,

across many southern areas, temperatures nudging 30 degrees in