Browse content similar to 30/08/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, an immigration crackdown on British universities over | 0:00:00 | 0:00:06 | |
possibly bogus students. London Metropolitan's mishandling of the | 0:00:06 | 0:00:10 | |
rules, means more than 2,000 non-EU students could be thrown out of the | 0:00:10 | 0:00:13 | |
country in two months. Is this measure a proportionate Government | 0:00:13 | 0:00:18 | |
response, or an attack on one of Britain's biggest export industries. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:22 | |
There is danger by choosing a single target of overall net | 0:00:22 | 0:00:25 | |
migration, the Government has chosen a target they will never hit, | 0:00:25 | 0:00:29 | |
and in trying to hit it they will do a lot of damage to the economy | 0:00:29 | 0:00:32 | |
and the university sector. We will discuss with educationalists, and | 0:00:33 | 0:00:39 | |
business alum nigh. The Mark of Caisn massacre, after South African | 0:00:39 | 0:00:42 | |
security forces shot dead 34 striking miners, the authorities | 0:00:42 | 0:00:46 | |
have brought charges, but against the miners themselves. Coming to | 0:00:46 | 0:00:50 | |
the skies and studios near you, drones of all shapes and sizes, | 0:00:50 | 0:00:54 | |
like this little monster, what are they looking at and why? With a | 0:00:54 | 0:00:58 | |
huge increase in the amount of private companies, and institutions, | 0:00:58 | 0:01:06 | |
able to use drones over our heads, who is going to stop people from | 0:01:06 | 0:01:16 | |
0:01:16 | 0:01:17 | ||
watching us on our own property, and even in our own homes. There is | 0:01:18 | 0:01:22 | |
no doubt that getting tough on illegal immigrants, including bogus | 0:01:22 | 0:01:27 | |
students, is a very popular move for any British Government in | 0:01:27 | 0:01:34 | |
recent years. But is revoking the license of the Metropolitan | 0:01:34 | 0:01:39 | |
University to have foreign students the right way to proceed. | 0:01:39 | 0:01:43 | |
Universities should check all classes and make sure all students | 0:01:43 | 0:01:49 | |
have the right to be here in the first place, but with 2,000 | 0:01:49 | 0:01:53 | |
students facing a ticket home, is this the right response. And how do | 0:01:53 | 0:02:02 | |
we encourage foreign students to come here and pay university fees. | 0:02:02 | 0:02:09 | |
The English language is imbecile. Why do you say that? Because, all | 0:02:09 | 0:02:15 | |
the people who say they speak English, they speak with accents so | 0:02:15 | 0:02:20 | |
different. There was a time, many decades ago, when we thought | 0:02:20 | 0:02:25 | |
teaching foreigners the vagaries of English, could only be a good thing. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:31 | |
But in multiethnic London, 80 years on, we are not always so sure. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:33 | |
London Metropolitan University, which attract as high number of | 0:02:33 | 0:02:39 | |
students from abroad, has been told it can no longer accept them. The | 0:02:39 | 0:02:43 | |
2,500 already here will be deported, unless another college will take | 0:02:43 | 0:02:51 | |
them on. It is very difficult, because I'm to submit my thesis | 0:02:51 | 0:02:56 | |
tomorrow. Only to be told that the license has been revoked, and that | 0:02:56 | 0:03:03 | |
I have to leave the country within 60 days. That is very unfortunate. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:07 | |
Today, students were protesting in Downing Street at the Government's | 0:03:07 | 0:03:11 | |
decision to punish their university. After the UK Border Agency found | 0:03:11 | 0:03:15 | |
many foreign students there weren't turning up to lectures, couldn't | 0:03:15 | 0:03:19 | |
speak enough English, or didn't have permission to stay in Britain. | 0:03:19 | 0:03:25 | |
But legitimate students will be affected too. After spending | 0:03:25 | 0:03:32 | |
thousands of pounds with this university and he they came all the | 0:03:32 | 0:03:37 | |
way from their home countries, their family had dreams, they had | 0:03:37 | 0:03:42 | |
dreams, their friends there had dreams for these students, so | 0:03:42 | 0:03:47 | |
everything is going in vain now. London Metropolitan, may be the | 0:03:47 | 0:03:50 | |
first university to be tarted in this way, but the Government is | 0:03:50 | 0:03:55 | |
sending out a clear warning to others. Rooting out bogus students | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
helps reduce the number of foreigners studying in the UK. And | 0:03:58 | 0:04:05 | |
that, for the Government, is one of the best ways of bringing down | 0:04:05 | 0:04:09 | |
overall immigration, one of its key commitments. Of the 566,000 people | 0:04:09 | 0:04:17 | |
estimated to have migrated to the UK in the year to December 2011, | 0:04:17 | 0:04:26 | |
about 2323,000, or 41% came to -- 2 32,000, or 41%, came to study. The | 0:04:26 | 0:04:31 | |
number of non-EU visas has increased dramatically. Now, in the | 0:04:31 | 0:04:35 | |
last year, there has been a big drop of 21% in the number of | 0:04:35 | 0:04:40 | |
student visas granted. But will that really help the Government | 0:04:40 | 0:04:44 | |
achieve its aims? Overseas students are the biggest single category of | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
immigration. But they are also very different from other types, they | 0:04:48 | 0:04:52 | |
are much less likely to stay here. If you ask people what they really | 0:04:52 | 0:04:56 | |
understand by immigration, a student who comes here for a year | 0:04:56 | 0:04:59 | |
or two and then goes home isn't what they are worried about. There | 0:04:59 | 0:05:03 | |
is a real danger by choosing a single target of overall net | 0:05:03 | 0:05:07 | |
migration, which includes students as well as people who come here to | 0:05:07 | 0:05:10 | |
work and family and everything else, the Government has ended up | 0:05:10 | 0:05:14 | |
choosing a tart they will never hit, and in trying to hit it they will | 0:05:14 | 0:05:18 | |
do a lot of damage to the economy and the university sector. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:22 | |
official figures show that 20% of students do stay on illegally, | 0:05:22 | 0:05:27 | |
changing their status by marrying, or finding work. Students form by | 0:05:27 | 0:05:32 | |
far the largest proportion of those who stay on here for long-term | 0:05:32 | 0:05:36 | |
migration in one form or another. There is something like half a | 0:05:36 | 0:05:42 | |
million, including student visitors, who come here each year. If 20% of | 0:05:42 | 0:05:46 | |
those stay on beyond five years, that makes a lot of people. We also | 0:05:46 | 0:05:51 | |
know that there are those who stay on illegally. So it's, without | 0:05:51 | 0:05:56 | |
question, the number of students who become long-term immigrants is | 0:05:56 | 0:05:59 | |
significant, and absolutely right that the Government does something | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
about it. The Government's now removed the automatic right for | 0:06:02 | 0:06:06 | |
students to stay on and seek work after their courses. But | 0:06:06 | 0:06:11 | |
immigration is falling only very slowly. Net migration in the year | 0:06:11 | 0:06:17 | |
to December 2010, was 25 2,000. Today we learned that figure | 0:06:18 | 0:06:23 | |
dropped to 216,000 the following year. A fall of 36,000. But the | 0:06:23 | 0:06:28 | |
Government still is a long way from achieving its target of a maximum | 0:06:29 | 0:06:34 | |
of 100,000 by 2015. But even if it can succeed, isn't it odd to reduce | 0:06:35 | 0:06:38 | |
overseas student numbers when Britain is also trying to sell the | 0:06:38 | 0:06:42 | |
benefits of our education system. Overseas students contribute | 0:06:42 | 0:06:46 | |
billions of pounds of fees to the university sector at a time when | 0:06:46 | 0:06:50 | |
universities are under pressure, because of the public spending cuts, | 0:06:50 | 0:06:54 | |
which we all know are inevitable. They also spend money in the | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
communities where they stay. The total estimates of the economic | 0:06:58 | 0:07:02 | |
benefit, not just the fees, but the money they spend, the Government's | 0:07:02 | 0:07:07 | |
own estimates, in 2011, were they contribute well over �10 billion. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:12 | |
Surely that won't be affected by removing bogus students? They admit | 0:07:12 | 0:07:15 | |
the decision they have made today will affect genuine students and | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
those who aren't genuine, they don't know which. They think it | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
will be useful to have a symbol of how tough they are being. That is | 0:07:22 | 0:07:26 | |
understandable from a domestic political point of view, that | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
signal is interpreted differently in the countries where people are | 0:07:29 | 0:07:35 | |
thinking about coming to the UK or another country to study. Here in | 0:07:35 | 0:07:41 | |
North London, certainly, the welcome students once experienced | 0:07:41 | 0:07:51 | |
0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | ||
has run cold. We have our guests here. A former student of | 0:07:55 | 0:08:00 | |
university in London, and creator of Cobra beer. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:05 | |
And my other guests. Were you aware of problems when you were teaching | 0:08:05 | 0:08:10 | |
there? There are always student who is didn't show at all, or who came | 0:08:10 | 0:08:19 | |
infrequently. I was pretty much told by the programme director to | 0:08:19 | 0:08:23 | |
assume that students that didn't show up at all hadn't entered the | 0:08:23 | 0:08:27 | |
country, or there was nothing you could do about students not | 0:08:27 | 0:08:35 | |
attending very much. Often for issues of work. Did you think that | 0:08:35 | 0:08:39 | |
maybe they had entered the country, but weren't attending lessons | 0:08:39 | 0:08:43 | |
because they were bogus students? There didn't seem to be any way of | 0:08:43 | 0:08:48 | |
checking it or any will to check it. The UK Border Agency has increased | 0:08:48 | 0:08:53 | |
the requirements since then. But obviously, London Metropolitan, | 0:08:53 | 0:08:57 | |
hasn't met those requirements. That is why the current situation is as | 0:08:57 | 0:09:03 | |
it is. But I don't think it is just London Metropolitan University, my | 0:09:03 | 0:09:09 | |
experience elsewhere in other London universities was similar. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:12 | |
that note, we will move on, was it your sense that these students, | 0:09:12 | 0:09:16 | |
whether they turned up or not, had paid. In other words, the | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
university got the money, and was therefore reasonably happy whether | 0:09:19 | 0:09:28 | |
they turned up or not? You only had to pay the first part of it. To be | 0:09:28 | 0:09:34 | |
on the books. In other words, I suppose, what we're hearing there | 0:09:34 | 0:09:38 | |
is, that it is possible to abuse the system, it is possible to come | 0:09:38 | 0:09:42 | |
in. I wonder whether you feel it is kind of unfair for 2,000 students, | 0:09:42 | 0:09:46 | |
many of whom are here, presumably, perfectly legally, and in the | 0:09:46 | 0:09:51 | |
middle of degree courses, to have their whole future wrecked on this? | 0:09:52 | 0:09:56 | |
We have gone beyond the state of it might be possible, we have a | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
serious problem here. We have two issues, firstly, how the rules | 0:09:59 | 0:10:03 | |
operate against those who are genuine students is unsatisfactory, | 0:10:03 | 0:10:05 | |
and unacceptable. Clearly the Government needs to change that. | 0:10:05 | 0:10:13 | |
The idea that there are people who are participating in courses, who | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
are progressing their degrees, or tickets already bought to come here | 0:10:15 | 0:10:22 | |
for next year, and going to be refused, is not acceptable. But, | 0:10:22 | 0:10:27 | |
likewise, this university, and maybe, other universities, have got | 0:10:27 | 0:10:32 | |
some answering to. Do the spotlight shouldn't just be what the | 0:10:32 | 0:10:35 | |
Government is up to, it should be up to what the universities are | 0:10:35 | 0:10:40 | |
doing. This university must have done more damage to the position of | 0:10:40 | 0:10:43 | |
British universities seeking overseas students than any other | 0:10:43 | 0:10:48 | |
action you could imagine. We z I should make clear, we did ask the | 0:10:48 | 0:10:52 | |
Government if they would like to attend. Rather like some of your | 0:10:52 | 0:10:56 | |
students, they decided not to bother. Do you think London Met is | 0:10:56 | 0:11:00 | |
toxic and it is a real problem for the whole system. Why would anyone | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
want to go there from abroad? don't recognise the account that | 0:11:03 | 0:11:07 | |
was given by Linda, and she was decribing a situation which pre- | 0:11:07 | 0:11:12 | |
dated some quite significant changes to the Border Agency rules. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:17 | |
Now the standards are extremely high. Not at London Met, because | 0:11:17 | 0:11:19 | |
they didn't enforce it? I can't comment on the circumstances, we | 0:11:20 | 0:11:23 | |
simply do not know what was going on there. Are you saying there is | 0:11:23 | 0:11:27 | |
no other university in this country, where there may be quite a lot of | 0:11:27 | 0:11:32 | |
bogus students who don't turn up for lectures, and just come here as | 0:11:32 | 0:11:36 | |
immigrants? There is no suggestion of universities taking on bogus | 0:11:36 | 0:11:40 | |
students. At Universities UK, we have made it clear we want to work | 0:11:40 | 0:11:44 | |
with the Government to eliminate any problems in the system. If | 0:11:44 | 0:11:48 | |
there are bogus students, they have to leave. What is the problem | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
today? We simply don't know the facts as to what was happening in | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
London Metropolitan Police university, and the circumstances | 0:11:55 | 0:12:02 | |
that -- London Metropolitan, and the circumstances that Linda | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
outlined pre-dates this issues today. What happened yesterday and | 0:12:05 | 0:12:11 | |
today, is Government's decision has impacted on large numbers of | 0:12:11 | 0:12:13 | |
completely legitimate, genuine international students, that is | 0:12:13 | 0:12:17 | |
what is so distressing. Do you agree with a bit of that, it is | 0:12:17 | 0:12:20 | |
clearly unfair to some of these students? I think Nicola is | 0:12:20 | 0:12:23 | |
wriggling here, I think the universities have a case to answer. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:29 | |
The actions of this university were probably born, out when more | 0:12:29 | 0:12:32 | |
detailed work is done from the sample taken. If something like a | 0:12:32 | 0:12:36 | |
quarter of the students are actually illegals, then there is a | 0:12:36 | 0:12:42 | |
real case to answer, and if I was a student living abroad, thinking | 0:12:42 | 0:12:45 | |
where I would want my children to come, I certainly wouldn't want | 0:12:45 | 0:12:49 | |
them to come to university that is staffed by large nufpls of students | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
breaking the law to -- numbers of students breaking the law to be | 0:12:53 | 0:13:01 | |
here. I total low agree, if there are students -- totally agree, if | 0:13:02 | 0:13:04 | |
there illegitimate students then that is something we need to do | 0:13:04 | 0:13:08 | |
something about it. What are the universities going to do to put | 0:13:08 | 0:13:12 | |
their house in order? You could have been one of these guys, | 0:13:12 | 0:13:17 | |
couldn't you? You were at London Met? I was legally here. Some of | 0:13:17 | 0:13:24 | |
these are legally here? I was here, I spent a year at what is now | 0:13:24 | 0:13:28 | |
London Metropolitan University, I then graduated in law at Cambridge | 0:13:28 | 0:13:32 | |
University, three generations of my family have been educated in | 0:13:32 | 0:13:35 | |
Britain, my grandmother, my mother, and now me. This is something that | 0:13:35 | 0:13:38 | |
goes along the reputation of this country having the finest higher | 0:13:38 | 0:13:41 | |
education in the world, alongside the United States. We spend a | 0:13:41 | 0:13:45 | |
fraction of what the United States spends on higher education. This | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
Government is decimating higher education in this country. First | 0:13:47 | 0:13:51 | |
they pulled the funding to the universities. Then they triple the | 0:13:51 | 0:13:54 | |
fees for the domestic student, and now they are hitting the | 0:13:54 | 0:13:59 | |
international students as well. Who make up 10% of your students. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:03 | |
Academics at Oxford and Cambridge, 30% are foreign. Immigration cap | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
that is are cruel, immigration figure that is includes students. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:10 | |
We all know that students, on the whole, the vast majority, return to | 0:14:10 | 0:14:15 | |
their countries. We don't know that. We know that as an absolute fact. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:20 | |
Well over 80% of the students return to their countries. The | 0:14:20 | 0:14:22 | |
challenge here is the UK Border Agency are the people who don't | 0:14:23 | 0:14:26 | |
know how many illegal immigrants are in this country. That figure | 0:14:26 | 0:14:30 | |
comes from the Home Office survey, what that Home Office survey showed, | 0:14:30 | 0:14:35 | |
we know that 20% do go home. They couldn't account for. 20%? 20%, | 0:14:36 | 0:14:41 | |
they have proof, they do not know, that survey shows, they do not know | 0:14:42 | 0:14:48 | |
what happens to the other 80%. They may all go. They don't know the | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
number of illegal immigrants. have argued about immigration | 0:14:51 | 0:14:55 | |
figures for years, without getting to the point. The point tonight, | 0:14:55 | 0:15:01 | |
presumably, is somebody like this, an entrepeneur, good for this | 0:15:01 | 0:15:05 | |
country, is being quick kicked out with all the others. It is a waste | 0:15:05 | 0:15:09 | |
the opportunity and for future generations? What a way to do it in | 0:15:09 | 0:15:12 | |
a way, where you have been sending out a signal. I have been the | 0:15:12 | 0:15:17 | |
founding chairman of the UK Business Council, in India they are | 0:15:17 | 0:15:21 | |
saying, Britain doesn't want us. The number of Indians applying to | 0:15:21 | 0:15:24 | |
British universities is plummeting. The perception is becoming a | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
reality. That is terrible for universities isn't it? | 0:15:27 | 0:15:31 | |
concerned with the very interrelated crossover with labour | 0:15:31 | 0:15:39 | |
market issues. This is students coming only to work, working while | 0:15:39 | 0:15:44 | |
they are here, and post graduate work. These have big effects on the | 0:15:44 | 0:15:47 | |
labour market. This should be considered in the whole thing. | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
you think the message, mentioned there, is actually going to get | 0:15:50 | 0:15:54 | |
through, that people in India will say, no matter what my father, | 0:15:54 | 0:15:59 | |
grandfather or mother did, I won't go there, I won't risk it? We are | 0:15:59 | 0:16:05 | |
observing that. There are drops in Indian post graduate students | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
wanting to study science and engineering, those numbers are | 0:16:07 | 0:16:11 | |
going down. We are very concerned about this. If I can pick up on the | 0:16:11 | 0:16:16 | |
point that international students are taking away jobs. There is no | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
evidence that is actually happening. All the evidence suggests that | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
international students bring far more to this country, and there has | 0:16:22 | 0:16:27 | |
been a recent study, for example, by Oxford Economics, looking at the | 0:16:27 | 0:16:30 | |
contribution international students have made at the University of | 0:16:30 | 0:16:34 | |
Exeter. They bring far more and create more jobs than they take | 0:16:34 | 0:16:38 | |
away. That is the evidence. Nicola, what we surely want is a | 0:16:38 | 0:16:42 | |
policy where we welcome people who legitimately come to this country | 0:16:42 | 0:16:47 | |
to pursue their studies, and abide by the rules. What we do not want, | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
surely, is to find ourselves in a position, where we are defending a | 0:16:51 | 0:16:55 | |
university like this, that already has a track record. Under the | 0:16:55 | 0:16:58 | |
labour Government they had to pay back �37 million, because they | 0:16:58 | 0:17:03 | |
claimed for students they didn't actually have. So this is tax- | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
payers' money, this is part of the family of universities, that is | 0:17:07 | 0:17:12 | |
actually taking our image abroad and behaving like this. That is the | 0:17:12 | 0:17:17 | |
past, over the last three years, under the new Vice Chancellor, they | 0:17:17 | 0:17:22 | |
have made huge steps, and they will now be short of �30 million. I was | 0:17:22 | 0:17:25 | |
Chancellor, I was Chancellor of what is now West London University, | 0:17:25 | 0:17:29 | |
I was board of the governors for five years, and Vice Chancellor for | 0:17:29 | 0:17:34 | |
five years, I know how much our foreign students help with the | 0:17:34 | 0:17:40 | |
funding of the university. There is so many benefits. �8 billion. | 0:17:40 | 0:17:44 | |
not disputing any of that. We have had a university that took tax- | 0:17:44 | 0:17:48 | |
payers' money to the tune of �37 million, by claiming to have | 0:17:48 | 0:17:52 | |
students they didn't have. That is the past history. That is nothing | 0:17:52 | 0:18:01 | |
to do with this debate. We are now into today's evidence, about the | 0:18:01 | 0:18:05 | |
same university has real problems over bogus students This is the | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
problem about this debate. There is so many confusing arguments brought | 0:18:08 | 0:18:13 | |
into the mix. It is confusing, it is confusing the public, it is | 0:18:13 | 0:18:16 | |
confusing everyone. That is historical, and although I don't | 0:18:16 | 0:18:21 | |
disagree with anything you have just said about the history, it is | 0:18:21 | 0:18:26 | |
completely irrelevant to our discussion today. We want to hear | 0:18:26 | 0:18:28 | |
everybody. Nicola is absolutely right. We are competing in the | 0:18:28 | 0:18:31 | |
world, we are competing with the United States, we are competing | 0:18:31 | 0:18:35 | |
with Canada, we are competing with Australia in specific terms, they | 0:18:35 | 0:18:39 | |
do not, they categorise students under a separate immigration, | 0:18:39 | 0:18:45 | |
temporary immigration. Do you agree with that? Absolutely, if you ask | 0:18:45 | 0:18:49 | |
David Willetts if we should put them in a separate category. Some | 0:18:49 | 0:18:53 | |
nay be staying on the whole or not, but the Government would solve the | 0:18:53 | 0:18:56 | |
problem. Is this a problem caused by setting these targets, do you | 0:18:56 | 0:19:02 | |
think? No, the targets have been set, and they were overwhelmingably | 0:19:02 | 0:19:09 | |
supported by voters of all parties. What we have here -- overwhelmingly | 0:19:09 | 0:19:13 | |
supported by voters of all parties. We have a problem of taking our | 0:19:13 | 0:19:17 | |
image abroad, and parents signing up for that university and children | 0:19:17 | 0:19:22 | |
to come here, and look at how the university behaves. The image now | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
is Britain doesn't want foreign students, weed need them for the | 0:19:27 | 0:19:32 | |
economy. I think it is a hopeless argument, this. Why not have the EU | 0:19:32 | 0:19:37 | |
India-free trade agreement out in the open. We are trying. Why not | 0:19:37 | 0:19:43 | |
the labour issues out. That is another issue. The only thing India | 0:19:43 | 0:19:48 | |
is asking for labour entry. We will be looking at control of the skies | 0:19:48 | 0:19:53 | |
soon. The Newsnight drone is still keeping an eye out on proceedings. | 0:19:53 | 0:19:57 | |
There it is, in all its glory. Tonight we are finding out how | 0:19:58 | 0:20:02 | |
variations on the drones used to attack hideouts on the Taliban in | 0:20:03 | 0:20:06 | |
Pakistan and Afghanistan are coming to this country, indeed this very | 0:20:06 | 0:20:13 | |
studio. Now, as that demented midge dies a | 0:20:13 | 0:20:17 | |
death over there. Before all, that in the days of apartheid, before | 0:20:17 | 0:20:20 | |
South Africa became a democracy, the doctrine of common purpose, | 0:20:20 | 0:20:24 | |
gave people the means to lock up people it considered to be | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
troublemakers. Now that very same law is being used to charge the 270 | 0:20:27 | 0:20:31 | |
miners part of a Marikana mine demonstration. At which police | 0:20:31 | 0:20:34 | |
killed 34 of their number. Charging the striking miners in connection | 0:20:34 | 0:20:38 | |
with the deaths of men shot by the police, is stirring up a political | 0:20:38 | 0:20:45 | |
storm in South Africa. Set the scene for us, what was all | 0:20:45 | 0:20:49 | |
this about initially? The miners have been on strike since 10 if of | 0:20:49 | 0:20:54 | |
August, looking for a tripping -- August 10th, looking for a tripling | 0:20:54 | 0:20:59 | |
of their wages. This dispute has become increasingly violent. There | 0:20:59 | 0:21:04 | |
was a series of incidents in which ten people were killed, including | 0:21:04 | 0:21:07 | |
two policemen, allegedly by striking miners. Two weeks ago | 0:21:07 | 0:21:11 | |
today, the incident you mentioned, in which 34 striking miners were | 0:21:11 | 0:21:15 | |
killed by the police. They gathered on top of a rock, they were | 0:21:16 | 0:21:19 | |
brandishing called traditional weapons, spheres and macheties, | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
they came charging down towards the police lines, the police opened | 0:21:23 | 0:21:26 | |
fire. It was very clear what happened. It was captured on film. | 0:21:26 | 0:21:29 | |
Today there are allegations of some of those killed were actually | 0:21:29 | 0:21:34 | |
hunted down by the police and killed in cold blood at very close | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
range. Given all that and the allegations against the police and | 0:21:37 | 0:21:46 | |
the film evidence, what happened today. It was extraordinary, one | 0:21:46 | 0:21:49 | |
might expect charges against the police. Not yet, because inquiries | 0:21:49 | 0:21:53 | |
are still going on. But today the strike miners, many of the striking | 0:21:53 | 0:21:58 | |
miners were actually charged with the murder of their colleagues. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:02 | |
Under the called "common purpose doctrine". This was an | 0:22:02 | 0:22:05 | |
extraordinary law, which means if you have a gathering, and some of | 0:22:05 | 0:22:09 | |
them are armed, and they are confronting the police, and there | 0:22:09 | 0:22:12 | |
are then fatalities, those within that gathering can actually be | 0:22:12 | 0:22:18 | |
charged with murder, regardless of who caused the killings. This is a | 0:22:18 | 0:22:23 | |
bizarre law that was used a lot during the apartheid era. Often | 0:22:23 | 0:22:27 | |
against the ANC. It is extraordinary it should be used | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
today. What are the implications of what is quite an extraordinary | 0:22:31 | 0:22:35 | |
moment for the new South Africa? is an extraordinary moment, the | 0:22:35 | 0:22:39 | |
implications are enormous. This is seen as much more than a killing | 0:22:39 | 0:22:46 | |
and mine dispute. The firebrand former leader of the ANC youth | 0:22:46 | 0:22:50 | |
league, has called it madness, I met him last week, he was at the | 0:22:50 | 0:22:54 | |
Police Station in the mine trying to bring charges against the police. | 0:22:55 | 0:23:00 | |
It goes beyond politics. There is increasing concern within the | 0:23:00 | 0:23:05 | |
country as what is seen as a divide between ordinary people, and the | 0:23:05 | 0:23:10 | |
ANC, seen by many as elite, and not delivering after 18 years in power. | 0:23:10 | 0:23:13 | |
The killings have become symptomatic of that dispute. | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
President Zuma is up for re- election at the ANC conference | 0:23:17 | 0:23:20 | |
later this year, and it's the dispute that is increasingly | 0:23:20 | 0:23:28 | |
bringing in other parties, such as the churches. | 0:23:28 | 0:23:32 | |
Joining us from Johannesburg is the Methodist minister, who has been at | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
the site and spoken to the families of the miners. What are the | 0:23:36 | 0:23:43 | |
families of the men saying to you today? I haven't met directly with | 0:23:43 | 0:23:49 | |
any of the families. I have, when we went to Marikana, we went to the | 0:23:49 | 0:23:53 | |
actual site of the massacre. Then we met with the community. I spoke | 0:23:53 | 0:23:58 | |
to the community. We then went to the hospital, where there are still | 0:23:58 | 0:24:03 | |
people recovering from their wounds. And then we went to the police | 0:24:03 | 0:24:07 | |
station. In all places we prayed with the people. But, yesterday we | 0:24:07 | 0:24:12 | |
had a memorial service in the church, and I think that, first of | 0:24:12 | 0:24:19 | |
all, there seems to be, in the community, deep anxiety about on | 0:24:19 | 0:24:24 | |
going threats, on going harassment, on going vulnerability after what | 0:24:24 | 0:24:32 | |
happened. And actual that predated the massacre. There is a deep, | 0:24:32 | 0:24:37 | |
profound sense of grief. I mean, I actually think that the whole | 0:24:37 | 0:24:41 | |
country should be mourning. Because this is not just a private matter | 0:24:41 | 0:24:47 | |
that has happened on a mine in some place. It actually affects the | 0:24:47 | 0:24:52 | |
entire reputation of every South African. Do you worry, and do the | 0:24:52 | 0:24:56 | |
people you talked today in the community worry, that one result of | 0:24:56 | 0:25:06 | |
0:25:06 | 0:25:07 | ||
this may be more violence? I have no doubt about that, I think the | 0:25:07 | 0:25:12 | |
imagination of some of the workers in this country has been spark. | 0:25:12 | 0:25:17 | |
Particularly by this incident. It has underscored the huge disparity | 0:25:17 | 0:25:21 | |
that there is between the haves and the have-nots in this country. And | 0:25:21 | 0:25:25 | |
all sorts of allegations around greed and corruption and | 0:25:25 | 0:25:31 | |
overspending, and non-delivery of services. A whole plethora of | 0:25:31 | 0:25:35 | |
issues that now face an emerging democracy. What do you make, and | 0:25:35 | 0:25:39 | |
what do you think other people make of the use of this common purpose | 0:25:39 | 0:25:45 | |
law, which, I know many people thought had been utterly | 0:25:45 | 0:25:53 | |
discredited in the past? I'm not surprised. For me it is a legal | 0:25:53 | 0:26:00 | |
trick. Particularly, in view of the fact, that for the actual killing | 0:26:00 | 0:26:07 | |
of the 34 people at Marikana, there certainly was motive, I have seen | 0:26:07 | 0:26:11 | |
an e-mail, which exposes the policeman that was burnt, and the | 0:26:12 | 0:26:17 | |
policeman hacked to death. I think anybody who sees that footage would | 0:26:17 | 0:26:24 | |
understand the vitriol in the police, around the violation of | 0:26:24 | 0:26:30 | |
their rights. But, and so there is very strong motive for what now is | 0:26:30 | 0:26:35 | |
being described as murder, by the police, of those who were shot. | 0:26:35 | 0:26:39 | |
Most of them in the back, as they were clearly running away from an | 0:26:39 | 0:26:45 | |
assault on them. We mustn't forget that what predated this shooting, | 0:26:45 | 0:26:51 | |
was the firing of teargas and rubber bullets at those who were on | 0:26:51 | 0:26:59 | |
the mountain outcrop. Actually forcing people through the only | 0:26:59 | 0:27:09 | |
0:27:09 | 0:27:10 | ||
aperture that was available, straight into the line of fire. So, | 0:27:10 | 0:27:20 | |
0:27:20 | 0:27:22 | ||
the profound violence we are seeing here, as a kind of show of force, | 0:27:22 | 0:27:26 | |
has left most South Africans stunned that this could happen 18 | 0:27:26 | 0:27:31 | |
years into a free South Africa. Thank you. | 0:27:31 | 0:27:36 | |
Now, they might be most familiar to you from science fiction movies, or | 0:27:36 | 0:27:39 | |
perhaps as high-tech weapons in the skies over Iraq or Afghanistan. | 0:27:39 | 0:27:44 | |
Over the next decade expect to see drones coming to the skies near you. | 0:27:45 | 0:27:50 | |
Vast sums are being spent on civilian drone projects, from | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
police surveillance to amateur photography. In the United States | 0:27:54 | 0:27:58 | |
Congress has told the space regulator to open up America to | 0:27:58 | 0:28:02 | |
drones by 2015, we could follow suit by the end of the decade. Are | 0:28:02 | 0:28:04 | |
we ready for a world where thousands of drones are patrolling | 0:28:05 | 0:28:14 | |
0:28:15 | 0:28:23 | ||
our skies. They are the eyes and ears of the Armed Forces. A decade | 0:28:23 | 0:28:28 | |
ago, less than 5% of US military aircraft were unmanned, now 40% | 0:28:29 | 0:28:35 | |
have no pilot on board. Many think the Typhoon, and the 5-35, will be | 0:28:36 | 0:28:39 | |
the last conventional fighters ever flown by the RAF. But the role of | 0:28:39 | 0:28:44 | |
the drone is now changing. British skies are about to open up to | 0:28:44 | 0:28:49 | |
thousands of civilian drones. Who is watching the drone operators, | 0:28:49 | 0:28:58 | |
how safe is this new technology? Next to the army draining zone on | 0:28:58 | 0:29:02 | |
Salisbury Plain, is a glimpse -- training zone on the Salisbury | 0:29:02 | 0:29:07 | |
Plain, is a glimpse of how drones could be used in the future. | 0:29:07 | 0:29:12 | |
It might not look much like the spy planes in Afghanistan, or Yemen, | 0:29:12 | 0:29:16 | |
but this is one of the first commercial uses of an unmanned | 0:29:16 | 0:29:23 | |
aircraft, in the UK itself. As the cost of sensors and digital | 0:29:23 | 0:29:26 | |
cameras have come down, so new civilian applications are starting | 0:29:26 | 0:29:35 | |
to become possible. These lightweight drones fly by | 0:29:35 | 0:29:39 | |
themselves, using satellite tracking to glide from point to | 0:29:39 | 0:29:43 | |
point. It is going to be taking many thousands of pictures, and | 0:29:43 | 0:29:47 | |
those pictures, we will know the precise location of each one, it is | 0:29:47 | 0:29:53 | |
possible to pull those photographs together. The data is then | 0:29:53 | 0:29:59 | |
analysesed, to find -- analysed, to find out how well crops are going | 0:29:59 | 0:30:04 | |
and if more fertiliser is needed. It is high-tech stuff, and an | 0:30:04 | 0:30:09 | |
industry this country could do with leading. It is a very exportable | 0:30:09 | 0:30:13 | |
technology, in the agriculture domain, you can scaling up for some | 0:30:13 | 0:30:16 | |
of the planes in the big fields you might have in Canada, for example. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:21 | |
If you are looking at other areas of technology, it can be in | 0:30:21 | 0:30:24 | |
construction, filming, environmental monitoring. It is | 0:30:24 | 0:30:28 | |
almost endless the sorts of applications of real benefit, and | 0:30:28 | 0:30:33 | |
not intrusive and not invasive. Endless possibilities, maybe, but a | 0:30:33 | 0:30:37 | |
small, lightweight drones as they get cheaper and more powerful, | 0:30:37 | 0:30:45 | |
serious questions are being asked about surveillance and privacy. | 0:30:45 | 0:30:50 | |
Police forces and the emergency serves have been testing these | 0:30:50 | 0:30:54 | |
small helicopter-style drones for some time now. There was a setback | 0:30:54 | 0:30:58 | |
when police in Liverpool first flew their's illegally, without the | 0:30:58 | 0:31:04 | |
right permission, and then managed to crash the �13,000 device into | 0:31:05 | 0:31:09 | |
the river Mersey. We have seen this document from the Association of | 0:31:09 | 0:31:13 | |
Chief Police Officers, which sets out the precise technical | 0:31:13 | 0:31:17 | |
specifications for these vehicles, the type of camera used. In a | 0:31:17 | 0:31:20 | |
rather strange section of the document, which reads more like a | 0:31:20 | 0:31:25 | |
bad crime novel than a police briefing. It sets out how senior | 0:31:25 | 0:31:34 | |
officers think these devices could be used in the future. | 0:31:34 | 0:31:43 | |
The unmanned aerial vehicle arrives, the area is extremely quiet, and | 0:31:43 | 0:31:47 | |
the only thing move is the PC. Weather conditions are good, cloud | 0:31:47 | 0:31:54 | |
cover is high and light. The launch goes as planned, PC trains the | 0:31:54 | 0:31:57 | |
camera on the rear of the target property, and starts receiving | 0:31:57 | 0:32:02 | |
lividy. As the front door goes in, the suspect appears out of an | 0:32:02 | 0:32:07 | |
upstairs window, he jumps over a number of fences into a nearby | 0:32:07 | 0:32:12 | |
footpath. As the suspect is running, the PC shrbgts a flight mode that | 0:32:12 | 0:32:18 | |
maintain as constant distance behind the suspect. The suspect | 0:32:18 | 0:32:23 | |
emerges into an area of scrubland, and is challenged and arrested by | 0:32:23 | 0:32:27 | |
the dog handling unit. At the moment, anyone can fly a | 0:32:28 | 0:32:32 | |
lightweight drone in the UK. If they can prove to the airspace | 0:32:32 | 0:32:37 | |
regulator, the CAA, that they can do it safely. That has many privacy | 0:32:37 | 0:32:40 | |
campaigners worried. Who is protecting the public's civil | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
liberties and privacy, with their huge increase in the amount of | 0:32:44 | 0:32:50 | |
private companies and institutions able to use drones over our heads, | 0:32:50 | 0:32:56 | |
who is going to stop people from watching us on our own property, | 0:32:56 | 0:33:00 | |
and even our own homes. The Civil Aviation Authority have made it | 0:33:00 | 0:33:03 | |
very clear, it is not within their remit, they don't have the | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
authority, or the resources, to monitor what people are doing with | 0:33:08 | 0:33:12 | |
drones. Their remit is solely concerned with safety. | 0:33:12 | 0:33:16 | |
And, with drones costing a fraction of the price of helicopters, the | 0:33:16 | 0:33:21 | |
worry is, the authorities will greatly extend the use of aerial | 0:33:21 | 0:33:27 | |
surveillance. A small drone was used to film clashes last year at a | 0:33:27 | 0:33:31 | |
political rally in Poland. But this wasn't controlled by the police. It | 0:33:31 | 0:33:36 | |
was all filmed by a private company on the demonstrators' side of the | 0:33:36 | 0:33:40 | |
street. It raises new questions about who will be watching who in | 0:33:40 | 0:33:45 | |
the future. The real money, though, will not be in building small | 0:33:45 | 0:33:50 | |
helicopters, but in selling larger, more powerful drones. Government | 0:33:50 | 0:33:56 | |
agencies want them for border security and search and rescue. And | 0:33:56 | 0:34:01 | |
big freight firms, to ship cargo long distances. With this in mind, | 0:34:01 | 0:34:06 | |
Congress has told the US regulator to open up all domestic airspace to | 0:34:06 | 0:34:12 | |
large drones, by 2015. The UK won't be far behind. I don't think that | 0:34:12 | 0:34:17 | |
the public aware about how quickly this is going to be happening. We | 0:34:17 | 0:34:21 | |
are talking in the US that the skies will be open by 2015, in the | 0:34:21 | 0:34:25 | |
UK, in Europe, by 2020. That's going to happen very quickly I | 0:34:25 | 0:34:29 | |
don't think the public is really aware of the changes that will | 0:34:29 | 0:34:32 | |
happen. It is a real failure to have a proper discussion, and | 0:34:32 | 0:34:37 | |
proper debate about this. Very few parliamentarians, for instance, are | 0:34:37 | 0:34:42 | |
talking about this. Here in the UK, there may have been little public | 0:34:42 | 0:34:46 | |
discussion, but quietly, and behind the scenes, a serious amount of | 0:34:46 | 0:34:52 | |
public money is being spent. A consortium of large defence | 0:34:52 | 0:35:00 | |
companies has been given �31 million, to prove drones can safely | 0:35:00 | 0:35:04 | |
sure British skies with commercial jets. One of the largest grants of | 0:35:04 | 0:35:08 | |
its type ever handed out. Another �20 million of tax-payers' money | 0:35:08 | 0:35:12 | |
has been spent turning this old military base, and the airspace | 0:35:12 | 0:35:18 | |
around it, into the largest drone test site in Europe. This is on the | 0:35:18 | 0:35:23 | |
west coast of Wales, home to the British army's new watch keeper | 0:35:23 | 0:35:25 | |
drone programme. The only airport in the UK where companies are | 0:35:26 | 0:35:32 | |
allowed to test that koind of unmand technology. -- kind of | 0:35:32 | 0:35:37 | |
unmanned technology. The spy planes hidden away in the hangers here, | 0:35:38 | 0:35:42 | |
will eventually go to Afghanistan. But this was sold to the town as | 0:35:42 | 0:35:47 | |
more than a military site. It was meant to bring in hundreds of high- | 0:35:47 | 0:35:51 | |
tech jobs, testing the first generation of peaceful civilian | 0:35:51 | 0:35:55 | |
drones. What I object to is the military use of this base. And the | 0:35:56 | 0:36:01 | |
way it was sold to the public, as a civilian exercise. The project has | 0:36:01 | 0:36:09 | |
faced some fierce criticism from local residents. This man made his | 0:36:09 | 0:36:13 | |
feelings clear after a recent public consultation to open up more | 0:36:13 | 0:36:17 | |
airspace to drones. There are safety issues regarding drones, | 0:36:17 | 0:36:23 | |
there are noise issues, but if in exchange to that we have hundreds | 0:36:23 | 0:36:26 | |
of high-tech jobs, I'm sure the local people would support it. And | 0:36:26 | 0:36:31 | |
so would I. Despite all the public money spent, | 0:36:32 | 0:36:37 | |
most of the site here still lays empty, with few civilian customer. | 0:36:37 | 0:36:45 | |
Proof, maybe, that throwing cash they at the -- at the next big | 0:36:45 | 0:36:49 | |
thing, isn't always the way to go in a resomething he. This site is | 0:36:49 | 0:36:53 | |
being used, it is active, and it is delivering services for people who | 0:36:53 | 0:36:58 | |
need it. That will continue in the future. We have the capacity to | 0:36:58 | 0:37:01 | |
accommodate more business, and that will come. This is still an | 0:37:01 | 0:37:08 | |
industry in its infancy, with teething problems to overcome. | 0:37:08 | 0:37:13 | |
A drone crashed next to the runway here three years ago. There were no | 0:37:13 | 0:37:18 | |
juries, but it clearly spooked -- injuries, but it clearly spooked | 0:37:18 | 0:37:28 | |
people living near the site. Opera singer and music teacher, Arian | 0:37:28 | 0:37:32 | |
James lives a mile up the road. Because you can't get rid of the | 0:37:32 | 0:37:38 | |
noise, I can't get rid of the connection between the drone and | 0:37:38 | 0:37:45 | |
its purpose in life. It is a killing machine, it is spying, well | 0:37:45 | 0:37:51 | |
they say this one won't be carrying bombs. But, drones do carry bombs. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:59 | |
I know, I don't know, maybe this one can too. But it has cameras. I | 0:37:59 | 0:38:03 | |
don't know what happens to the film footage, who is watching, what they | 0:38:03 | 0:38:12 | |
do with it? It is a question. The questions raised in west Wales, | 0:38:12 | 0:38:18 | |
privacy, noise, safety, are hurdles the industry itself will need to | 0:38:18 | 0:38:23 | |
overcome. There are clearly some economic benefits to using unmanned | 0:38:23 | 0:38:26 | |
aircraft. But first we will have to accept the idea of drones flying | 0:38:26 | 0:38:36 | |
0:38:36 | 0:38:38 | ||
high above our heads in British skies. Noel Sharkey is Professor of | 0:38:38 | 0:38:45 | |
Robotics, and former presenter of Robot Wars. And Kevin Warwick is | 0:38:45 | 0:38:47 | |
Professor of Cybernetics at Reading University. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:52 | |
Where do you think this will go in a few years? It is an exciting | 0:38:52 | 0:38:55 | |
commercial opportunity now the drones we see at the moment have | 0:38:55 | 0:38:58 | |
big advantages when you look at human-piloted vehicles. They can | 0:38:58 | 0:39:02 | |
stay in the air for 30 hours at a time for example. But more | 0:39:02 | 0:39:05 | |
importantly, perhaps going places that humans can't go. So, I think | 0:39:05 | 0:39:10 | |
we are going to see things, such as at the moment in New Orleans, the | 0:39:10 | 0:39:14 | |
possiblities there for drones to go and inspect and see where there are | 0:39:14 | 0:39:19 | |
problems. Because of the terrible weather, you wouldn't put a plane | 0:39:19 | 0:39:23 | |
up there? It could be dangerous to humans. If a drone crashs in that | 0:39:23 | 0:39:28 | |
scenario, it is not such a political problem. There are no | 0:39:28 | 0:39:34 | |
deaths. I think they are going to get smaller. How small? That is a | 0:39:34 | 0:39:38 | |
good question, how small could they get. How small the technology can | 0:39:38 | 0:39:46 | |
go. It could be the size of a bee or a wasp. Very appropriate, drones | 0:39:46 | 0:39:49 | |
as bees! Presumably they will get cheaper and cheaper to run. Every | 0:39:49 | 0:39:58 | |
home should have one? You can already buy them on Amazon for $220, | 0:39:58 | 0:40:01 | |
you can buy the parrot drone and fly it around your neighbour's | 0:40:01 | 0:40:05 | |
window. It will become very available. Lots of people are using | 0:40:06 | 0:40:09 | |
them now. Real estate agents are using them, there is the drone | 0:40:09 | 0:40:13 | |
journalism lab now. They are really getting everywhere. There is no | 0:40:13 | 0:40:17 | |
regulation for it either. obvious problem people think about | 0:40:17 | 0:40:20 | |
is the privacy problem. You are in your back garden, you are doing | 0:40:20 | 0:40:24 | |
whatever you do in the back garden, and then somebody is filming you or | 0:40:24 | 0:40:29 | |
recording you, or having a look through your bedroom window? That | 0:40:29 | 0:40:32 | |
is the thing I'm most concerned about. You have the trade off | 0:40:32 | 0:40:36 | |
tweent security. There is good uses for drones -- between security. | 0:40:36 | 0:40:41 | |
There is good uses for drones, but you have individuality and autonomy | 0:40:41 | 0:40:45 | |
and finding the line. I have suggested to the police, in a | 0:40:45 | 0:40:49 | |
debate, that we should really look at signing drones out, wait you | 0:40:49 | 0:40:54 | |
sign out a weapon. Or the way you have a phone tap, so you go to see | 0:40:54 | 0:40:59 | |
a magistrate and judge, and get it out, in particular, because what we | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
find up until now, there is a lot of noise with this. I hope it won't | 0:41:02 | 0:41:06 | |
fly over myed head. I don't trust it. It is heading for you. There | 0:41:06 | 0:41:12 | |
goes the paper review. We tried to do the paper review later? | 0:41:12 | 0:41:15 | |
badly controlled. That strikes me as another problem, if these things | 0:41:15 | 0:41:19 | |
are flying around, that looks great fun, I would love to play around | 0:41:19 | 0:41:24 | |
with it, but it will crash. They do crash and the expensive ones? | 0:41:24 | 0:41:31 | |
13 a year are crashing since 2004. When something is this size it | 0:41:32 | 0:41:35 | |
doesn't matter, but the military weapons systems crash it is a | 0:41:35 | 0:41:39 | |
totally different ball game. This is half way between a serious | 0:41:39 | 0:41:43 | |
object and a toy. Kids could potentially build it and learn | 0:41:43 | 0:41:48 | |
about the technology. That doesn't look like a very sophisticated one. | 0:41:48 | 0:41:53 | |
The police ones are �40,000, they have really extremely light-weight | 0:41:53 | 0:41:58 | |
cameras, very high resolution, and very, very easy to fly. You have | 0:41:58 | 0:42:02 | |
device and you twist your finger on it. There is a privacy question and | 0:42:02 | 0:42:06 | |
civil liberties question. We have already got cameras on every street | 0:42:06 | 0:42:09 | |
corner, just about. Lots of advantages for using them. It is | 0:42:09 | 0:42:16 | |
not just people, you can monitor livestock, for farmers it is very | 0:42:16 | 0:42:22 | |
useful. You can inspect pipelines. That is all sorts of opportunities, | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
that are problematic, when humans are a problem, they do a short | 0:42:25 | 0:42:30 | |
space of time. That is why we need to sort out the issues of civil | 0:42:30 | 0:42:33 | |
liberties, there is nothing wrong with drones as such, you can use | 0:42:33 | 0:42:37 | |
them for rescue situations, and everything else, we mustn't let the | 0:42:37 | 0:42:42 | |
PR of that distract us from the issues of civil liberties. For the | 0:42:42 | 0:42:46 | |
UK the commercial opportunities are enormous. We have a fantastic | 0:42:46 | 0:42:49 | |
technological base in this area. We have a good industry in this area, | 0:42:49 | 0:42:54 | |
one the world's best. For us in the UK, it is a fantastic commercial | 0:42:54 | 0:42:59 | |
opportunity. Then, what are you both saying about this, you have | 0:42:59 | 0:43:03 | |
laid out the opportunities, but in terms, it should be regulated by | 0:43:03 | 0:43:07 | |
someone. And you were saying sign it out like a police firearm? | 0:43:07 | 0:43:14 | |
is one way of doing it. If I go out for a picnic, the drones aren't | 0:43:14 | 0:43:18 | |
invited. I don't want strangers watching me. I'm not doing anything | 0:43:18 | 0:43:21 | |
wrong. I'm a private person, I don't want to be watched by people | 0:43:21 | 0:43:26 | |
when I don't need to. When this first came up, and five police | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
departments, Kent and a number of others, were working with BAe | 0:43:30 | 0:43:33 | |
systems and the Home Office, and the Guardian used freedom of | 0:43:33 | 0:43:35 | |
information to get transactions of the meetings. They had been talking | 0:43:35 | 0:43:38 | |
about using it for looking at smuggling across the channel. When | 0:43:38 | 0:43:42 | |
you saw the transactions of the meetings, they were saying things | 0:43:42 | 0:43:46 | |
in the transactions like this will be a good news story, rather than | 0:43:46 | 0:43:50 | |
the Big Brother-type story, then you look at what the Guardian found, | 0:43:50 | 0:43:54 | |
they had a whole list of things, fly posting, anti-social behaviour. | 0:43:54 | 0:44:01 | |
There was a huge list of crimes, so it would be a fishing expedition. | 0:44:01 | 0:44:05 | |
You could put drugs in them, no mules, all kinds of things? It will | 0:44:05 | 0:44:09 | |
be very difficult to regulate them. Because anybody can buy one and fly | 0:44:09 | 0:44:15 | |
one. To regulate the police is the point. I will regulate the | 0:44:15 | 0:44:19 | |
newspapers, droned off the table! Let's have a look at the front | 0:44:19 | 0:44:29 | |
0:44:29 | 0:44:50 | ||
pages. The Guardian and a lot of For an apology, on the 2 3rdma May, | 0:44:50 | 0:44:55 | |
during an item on welfare reform, we broadcast an interview with | 0:44:55 | 0:44:59 | |
Shanene Thorpe, that unfairly created the impression that she was | 0:44:59 | 0:45:03 | |
unemployed and wholly dependant on benefits and living off the state | 0:45:03 | 0:45:08 | |
as a lifestyle choice. She asks us to make sure that she has been in | 0:45:08 | 0:45:11 | |
work-related education since leaving school. Shortly after the | 0:45:11 | 0:45:16 | |
programme we published an apology on the website for the unmerited | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
embarrassment and distress it may have caused her, we are happy to | 0:45:19 | 0:45:23 | |
make this broadcast apology as well. That's all from Newsnight, we will | 0:45:23 | 0:45:33 | |
0:45:33 | 0:45:54 | ||
watch over you one way or another tomorrow. Good night. | 0:45:54 | 0:45:58 | |
Hello, after a chilly night t will feel like autumn in the morning. | 0:45:58 | 0:46:01 | |
Despite the early sunshine. Already another weather system coming into | 0:46:01 | 0:46:04 | |
Northern Ireland and Scotland, with outbreaks of rain and a freshening | 0:46:04 | 0:46:07 | |
breeze, once again. Let's take a look at things in the afternoon. | 0:46:07 | 0:46:12 | |
Drizzle late in the day in Cumbria. On the other side of the Pennine, | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
hazy sunshine continuing, it is a dry, bright day in East Anglia and | 0:46:15 | 0:46:19 | |
the south-east, a better day for the Paralympics events, no showers | 0:46:19 | 0:46:23 | |
around too. The sun will be turning hazy. Increasing cloud in south- | 0:46:23 | 0:46:26 | |
west England, maybe a bit of light drizzle here and there to end the | 0:46:26 | 0:46:33 | |
day. A few spots of rain heading into western and northern counties | 0:46:33 | 0:46:37 | |
of Wales late on, for Northern Ireland the rain clears and there | 0:46:37 | 0:46:40 | |
may be late day brightness, the further west you are. For Scotland, | 0:46:40 | 0:46:44 | |
a damp afternoon to the west and north, but the rain taking much of | 0:46:44 | 0:46:54 | |
0:46:54 | 0:47:07 | ||
the day before reaching eastern A bright day across the south, and | 0:47:07 | 0:47:11 |