01/10/2012 Newsnight


01/10/2012

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If you have tears, prepare to shed them now. Ed Miliband is flesh and

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blood, he's not the Invisible Man, he went to a school! Every young

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person should feel they can have a career, a future - like I had.

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the public learn to love a wonk? Shouldn't be a hard sell when

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tomorrow here in Manchester, Ed Miliband presents his vision to his

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party - the worry here is what happens when he presents that

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vision to the public. As the eminent Marxist historian

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Eric Hobsbawm dies, we chew over whether there's space left for

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intellectuals in public life. The UN warns the world's population is

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ageing at a remarkable pace. Should we be worries? Professor Heinz

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Wolff is. He's here, as is George Monbiot, the environmentalist. And

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50 years ago today, he needed the National Guard turned out to he

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could go to class. The first black student at Mississippi university

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reflects on the journey he made and still to be made. Nothing has

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changed yet. I went to war 50 years There must have been a time when

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young Benjamin Disraeli or young Tony Blair was a household name

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just in his own household, but in democratic politics, the only thing

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worse than being unpopular is being unknown. Ed Miliband, the Labour

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Leader, has decided it's time we got to know and to like him a bit.

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Tomorrow, he Prenns his pitch to the Labour Party, love me, love my

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inner geek and then the rest of us get a chance to admire, among other

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things, such remarkable achievements as having gone to the

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same school as most people. Our Political Editor, Allegra Stratton,

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can feel her pulse quickening, at the Labour Party Conference in

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Manchester. We have a new policy this evening that will be in the

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Miliband speech tomorrow which does always quicken my heart at a

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political journalist. It's interesting and combines one of his

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three themes, the plight of the generation, the divide preen

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predatory and capitalism. They want more apprentices. He'll talk about

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the forgotten 50% of young people who don't go to university but who

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do need to be helped to train up and get more skills. The reason

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it's interesting is that we do have a living standard problem, people

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are finding that they can't get as high wages as they had before. Many,

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many people on different sides of the political spectrum have decided

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that the way to help people to get the higher wages is through more

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training. It's one policy, but we don't quite know how holistic the

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vision will be and tomorrow we'll know whether there's more ideas or

:03:05.:03:15.
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Blue skies thinking. Just saying the words produces a cringe now.

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What was once a nifty short hand for some meantal exertion by our

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elected politicians now sees much rolling of eyes -- mental.

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Today, in Manchester, lo and behold, a true blue sky and a man who likes

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nothing more than thinking aloud. hung around with Ed from around the

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age of 12 onwards. He was a very bright guy. How did Ed Miliband

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come to like thinking and talking so much? A party political

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broadcast released today is intended to explain just how. No

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matter that the Miliband brothers are fairly wealthy individuals, the

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film majors on how they both went to a comprehensive, forementions to

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be contrast candidate David Cameron's Eton. We follow Miliband

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as a Harvard teacher. That we are seeing this in cinematic glory

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indicates that Team Miliband have decided to embrace the inner geek.

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Professor Miliband wants to refashion the Labour Party in his

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own image. He kicked off conference with an appearance by political

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philosopher Michael Sandell. There are still today some things money

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can't buy. Well, one such thing is friendship. If you don't have as

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many friends as you would like, it might occur to you to try to buy

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some. But you would quickly realise that it wouldn't work. Why not? Why

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wouldn't it work? Somehow, the money that would buy the friend

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would disol the good you're seeking. -- dissolve the good you are

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seeking. The stoic philosophers used to gather underneath a porch

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like this one and hat for hours about ideas. That's what the Labour

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Party's been trying to do, ignore the pain and ignore the pleasure in

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equal measure and instead concentrate on my big ideas. That's

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what Ed Miliband is telling his party. The trouble is, for some,

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the time is coming for action. Redistribution. Does that mean

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giving people more money to begin with so you don't need to start

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redistributing it? Sort of? It's one of those phrases that gos in

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one of my ears and out the other, I'm afraid. You have to make things

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more concrete. Like what? Well, I'm on the left of the party so I think

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there is a lot more radical things have to be done. If you look at

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David Cameron, you won't like him I know already, but two years before

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an election, he was talking about free schools. We are not hearing

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concrete policies are we? If you look at it, I think we are. We've

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got a structure there and we are working on that, you know, getting

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our act together. You are working on it, getting your act together,

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rather than people know what you are about now? I think people are

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seeing the real us now, yes. We are getting back to grass roots and

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basics that.'s where we lost it. When you have a philosopher like

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Michael Sandel standing up, it must gall you. You know what's good

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behaviour and what's bad. You don't need to be told by an American

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philosopher, do you? Karl Marx said philosophers have only interpreted

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the world, the point is to change it. That would be what I would say

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about Michael Sandel. REPORTER: In terms of the electoral cycle, I'm

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interested in where you need to be? We need to give confidence to

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people that under Labour things would be better. We are getting

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money into the economy, construction and house building

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going, fairness at the top which we are not seeing from the present

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Government at the moment, getting the banking crisis sorted out and

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our banks restructured in the way they need to be. We are not going

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to have another financial crisis in the future. Labour's talking about

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what happens in the future and what they expect.

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The Shadow Chancellor today provided the warm-up. Here he is

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practising his grade I exam piece. But earlier, he'd been playing to a

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not quite packed hall. In his speech, he announced that

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Labour would spend money raised from the forthcoming sale of the 4G

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mobile phone spectrum on building 400,000 new homes to much applause.

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The Labour activists like a bit of action. The note struck by Balls at

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the start of the conference was much more philosophical, bordering

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on the fasive. Labour will not detail spending plans until after

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the next election. Labour is weak on the economy, many think this

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position cannot last. Even some of Ed Miliband's allies thu the time's

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come for few more specifics, an idea like pre-distribution is fine,

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not that complicated but probably belonged in the first year of his

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leadership when the public didn't pay much attention. Now the public

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is looking to him and they want a few more specifics.

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In his second conference speech as leader, Miliband will announce a

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policy designed to address his three central concerns, the

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squeezed middle, the next generation and the encouragement of

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productive capital and the penalising of predatory capital.

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Professor Miliband is doing some doing as well as some thinking but

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now we see more clearly that part of his pitch to the voters is that

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he's the thinking voters' Prime Minister.

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Douglas Alexander is the Shadow Foreign Secretary and joins us from

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the kfpbs now. Douglas Alexander, are we supposed

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to take your leader more seriously because he went to the same school

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as most of the population? -- conference. I think as he'll say

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tomorrow, the kind of school he went to helps him understand the

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concerns of people right across the country. Whether that's the

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pressure on living standards that we have seen over recent years,

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whether that's their anger about the state of the banks or whether

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that's their concerns that their kids might not have as good a life

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as they had. Tony Blair couldn't have done that because he went to a

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fee-paying school, that's the implication? It's not about what

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school you went to... You said it was Clement Atlee went to the east

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of London. Ed Miliband not only learned at his comprehensive school

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but has been spending time since listening directly to the concerns

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of voters, that's in contrast I would suggest to a Prime Minister

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who, by his decisions day in day out is showing he's just out of

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touch with the ordinary concerns of ordinary people. If what school you

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went to is not significant, why are you wasting four minutes of our

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time expecting us to watch a film about where he went to school?

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partly because if you want to be Prime Minister of the country,

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people have a right to know where you come from, what makes you

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believe what you believe and what's forged you as the politician you

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are. That's a reasonable question. We have been answering that

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question over the last couple of years but honestly, many people

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thought when we lost the election as badly as we did in 2010 that

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that might itself be an academic question. Over the last couple of

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years, partly because we have come together as a party, partly because

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of the terrible mess the Conservatives and liberals have

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made of the economy, people are now looking anew at the Labour Party

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and considering Ed Miliband is leading a party that could be back

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in power in three years' time. been leading for two years and

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nobody knows who he is? I don't think that's fair, Jeremy. He's

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been a leader who's brought us together when all past precedent

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was that the Labour Party tears itself apart when it goes into

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opposition. He's also the leader who last year made a speech about

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responsible capitalism that I think has set an agenda about the kind of

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change we need to see. I can't remember a single word that David

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Cameron said in his conference speech last year. People are still

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talking about what Ed Miliband said just a year ago.

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If people are so engaged with his ideas, why is it necessary to spend

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his main speech of the year tomorrow and this television

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broadcast telling us where he went to school? Well, I think you can

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overestimate, it's a single broadcast, one of a number that

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will be aired between now and when we expect a general election in

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three years. In terms of the speech tomorrow, it's a perfectly

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reasonable question to answer, what motivates him, where does he come

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from, what are his values and what does he offer the country. That

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will only be one part of the speech. I think if last year he focused on

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a vision for the economy, responsible capitalism, he'll set

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out a broader vision for the kind of UK he'd like to see when he

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speaks to the party and the country tomorrow. One of the differences we

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have learned with a coalition Government is the Conservative and

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Liberal leaders are on lienltotd prove to their own party that

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they're still Conservative and Liberal. The chance for Ed tomorrow

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is not just to speak to the party but to address the concerns of

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ordinary people, the squeeze on living standards, the rise in

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unemployment we have seen rerecently, the challenge that

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Britain has in paying its way after the financial crisis. That's the

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very stuff in the questions Ed will be answering tomorrow. Thus far we

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have had a lot of policy and very little sympathy. Is that the

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diagnosis? No. I think the right approach is both to talk about the

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kind of individual that Ed Miliband is, but at least as importantly

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talk about the kind of country that he wants to lead and that's why I

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expect he'll do it tomorrow. Here we are two years into his

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leadership. He's polling worse than David Cameron on who is going to

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make the better job of running the country? Well, listen, first of all,

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the poll that matters I think is probably three years off, but

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secondly, if we had this conversation two years ago and I

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suggested to you at that point that Labour would be ahead in the

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opinion polls, the party would be united, there would be a growing

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seasons of possibility about a Labour victory at the next election.

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You would probably have listened politely or being Jeremy maybe not,

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then the camera would have switched off and you would have suggested

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that I lie down in a darkened room. The fact is, we have come together

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as a party, the weakness of the Conservative Government has become

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apparent. Does that guarantee a Labour victory? Absolutely not. But

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it means that people who're not yet willing to give us their support,

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are willing to give us a hearing. That's what's different about the

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opportunity Ed Miliband has tomorrow. I'll let you go and have

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your lie down in a darkened room now. Thank you. Thanks very much.

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One of Ed Miliband's television character witnesses in this

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broadcast calls him Professor Miliband. This is not a title he's

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likely to use as he asks for our votes because the British don't

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seem to suffer intellectuals gladly. Some contrast to the genuine

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Professor, Eric Hobsbawm, the life long Marxist who's died of

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pneumonia at 95. His prescription force changing the world, it's safe

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to say, are in no danger of being adopted by the Labour Leader

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:14:19.:14:20.

tomorrow. But he did make you think. Born weeks before revolution in

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Russia ushered in the world's first communist state, it was to be Eric

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Hobsbawm's support for communism that provided his critics with

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years of ammunition. When we met, exactly ten years ago, on the first

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Monday of October 2002, he was prepared to seed some ground.

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can't call myself a communist any more because the kind of party

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which I believed was necessary, which Lenin pioneered and which was

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for a period in the 20th century an incredibly formidable device for

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changing states and societies, has run out. This historic period for

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that is gone. Eric Hobsbawm's unusual journey led

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from Alexandria to Venice, then 1930s Berlin. Eric Hobsbawm the

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historian was a product, not of the rise of Nazism, but of the move

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that followed. It was coming to England, where history was an

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important part of the teaching. Health service in an English

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secondary school and English university that I became historian.

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It was Hobsbawm age of series, a history of capitalism from 1789 to

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1991 that brought him his greatest literary renowned. Tony Blair

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sought his advice on how to revive Labour.

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We last met this past January as the current political leaders

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agonised over responsible capitalism.

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As an economic system, capitalism has nothing to do with

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responsibility. It has to do with growth, with making profit. Over

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the last 40 years, it seems to me, capitalism developed a sort of

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pathological degeneration of the line in which you believe that

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responsibility had absolutely nothing to do with it.

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The philosopher George Monbiot is here with the former Downing Street

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commune cases chief Alastair Campbell at Manchester. Mary first,

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this question of intellectuals public life politics, Hobsbawm

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belonged to something that was different, didn't he?

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I think he was part of a generation that came out of central Europe,

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very like Ed Miliband's father Actually very much like my father

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too, who lived through the 20th century and who thought of the

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world in big terms and were preoccupied with the world and with

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interpreting the world, and preoccupyed with coming up with

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visions of change but who didn't want to become politicians. We are

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suspicious, aren't we, of intellectuals in politics?

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Sometimes with good reason. Eric Hobsbawm had some good ideas and

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some pretty bad ideas. I think some of the British suspicion of British

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intellectuals has come from a sense that if intellectuals have too much

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power and responsibility, they'll be naive that there's a pragmatism

:17:38.:17:41.

necessary in public life that intellectuals lack. Alastair

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Campbell, in the communications business, a lot of very well

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educated and very clever politicians go out of their way to

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cultivate the ordinary bloke image, don't they? Why do they do that?

:17:57.:18:01.

don't think they do. I think that there's definitely a fact, I think

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in Britain were probably less respectful than intellectuals than

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in say France or parts of the education establishment in the

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United States. Don't forget, we are probably the only country where

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people I think ludicrously, to be too clever by half is a major

:18:17.:18:21.

criticism. In politics - I mean partly this is about the

:18:21.:18:24.

development of the media age and the fact that politicians do have

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to be able to communicate - I think that sometimes the politicians

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who're thought to be very intellectual. I could think of

:18:32.:18:35.

David Willets or Oliver Letwin of the modern Conservative Party that

:18:35.:18:39.

they are perhaps seen as having two brains in the case of Mr Willets,

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being very good thinkers but not having the political skills

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necessarily that you need the modern age. I suspect we are

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discussing this in part because people rightly think Ed Miliband

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has a pret digood intellect but we are still at that stage where

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people are trying to work out whether he was do the modern

:18:58.:19:03.

political stuff as well -- pretty good intellect. Politicians do have

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to be themselves if they are going to be successful because of the

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scrutiny. Two brains Willets - it's not a term of approbation, but a

:19:14.:19:19.

term of anxiety isn't it, too clever by half? They do worry but

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on the other hand what I think is that what counts as pragmatism is

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very often the idea of, as Cains put it of a deif you thinkle theory

:19:31.:19:35.

person. We get stuck in thinking of ways of the world which are

:19:35.:19:39.

pragmatic and we think that anything that comes outside that

:19:39.:19:44.

way, anybody who has a different concept of the world is out of

:19:44.:19:47.

touch and naive. There are moments in history, and this is one of them,

:19:47.:19:53.

where when we need as many ideas as possible. There's a wonderful piece

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by Count, which is a secret article to a perpetual piece and he says

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the condition for it is that Kings can shout philosophers but they

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should not be philosophers because being in power makes you unable to

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use your reason and philosophers should not be Kings, but they need

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that sort of critical respwerpretraition of the world.

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reinterpretation of the world. How much do you think it's to do with

:20:23.:20:27.

the common law theory that we don't have a written constitution? A lot

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of it comes down to the French revolution. The British looked on

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appalled at the nation killing its King and Queen and took pride in

:20:35.:20:40.

the fact that they didn't go in for such antics and blamed the French

:20:40.:20:46.

thinkers, the think, who led to this extremism. That's where the

:20:46.:20:51.

British love of simply it is, home- spun philosophy, pragmatism was

:20:51.:20:56.

born. Alastair's saying and Mary's saying, the British do think as

:20:56.:20:59.

much as any other people. We have got our intellectuals but they are

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not labelled as that. We have as many thinkers as any other nation

:21:03.:21:08.

but we don't tend to put them in cafes and we don't lionise them but

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of course they're out there. are nodding, Alastair Campbell, do

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you spend a lot of time hiding them? No, I agree with that because

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I think they are out there and quite a lot of them are in politics.

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I think that in France, it's deemed to be a very, very good thing to be

:21:25.:21:29.

nothing more than an intellectual and to say that you are an

:21:29.:21:33.

intellectual, your job have to be an intellectual, you think on

:21:33.:21:37.

behalf of others. Some of the big thinkers have been politicians in

:21:37.:21:40.

our history. If you read the works of Winston Churchill, even the

:21:40.:21:43.

stuff that is about his own political life, there's a man I

:21:43.:21:46.

think with a huge intellect who did wrestle with ideas. Modern

:21:47.:21:50.

politicians have to wrestle with ideas because of the velocity of

:21:50.:21:53.

change and the pressures surrounding them at the moment. In

:21:53.:21:58.

a way, they have to wrap them up in language that can be communicated

:21:58.:22:02.

down the barrel of a camera. I always say a good strategy, you

:22:03.:22:08.

need to be able to put it in a word, phrase, sentence, a page and a book,

:22:08.:22:12.

and the book is in a way the most important part of it but you still

:22:12.:22:14.

have to be able to explain that very, very simply to the person

:22:14.:22:19.

who's only going to listen to you for half a minute. Can you imagine,

:22:19.:22:23.

I mean that broadcast that the Labour Party are putting out, Ed

:22:23.:22:30.

Miliband's life, there is a person in that who talks about Ed Miliband

:22:30.:22:33.

during his time at Harvard as Professor Harvard. Can you imagine

:22:33.:22:37.

someone campaigning to be Prime Minister as a Professor? Yes, I can,

:22:37.:22:41.

I can. I heard your interview with Douglas

:22:41.:22:45.

Alexander there and let's be honest, part of the challenge Ed has at the

:22:45.:22:49.

moment is to get across the UK who he is. His background is an

:22:49.:22:53.

important part of that. Therefore where you go to school is a

:22:53.:22:58.

relevant part. Story of somebody whose life as his career develops

:22:58.:23:03.

will be analysed microscopically. We have to push back better than we

:23:03.:23:08.

do on this too clever by half thing. Tony Blair famously education,

:23:08.:23:12.

education, education. We all still believe that education is one of

:23:12.:23:18.

the keys to making Britain more prosperous and we should value

:23:18.:23:20.

intellectual thought more, including in the political process.

:23:20.:23:25.

Some of the commentary today about the intellectuals who spoke at the

:23:25.:23:29.

conference yesterday who had a lot of the audience spell bound but a

:23:29.:23:33.

lot of it was sneerry. We'd have a better political debate if we

:23:33.:23:35.

valued the contribution of intellectuals who present

:23:35.:23:38.

themselves as such as throw new ideas out there that we can chew

:23:38.:23:42.

over and fight and argue over, many of which will get into the

:23:42.:23:48.

political system. Mary Kaldor? think it's true that good

:23:48.:23:52.

politicians are also thinkers. Winston church sill a good example

:23:52.:24:00.

and maybe Ed Miliband will be a good example too -- Churchill is a

:24:00.:24:05.

good example. You need those who act according to their consciences.

:24:05.:24:10.

Society needs that. The fall of communism was a brilliant example.

:24:10.:24:16.

There were so many thinkers who didn't become thinkers when

:24:16.:24:20.

President. George Conrad came up with new ideas which really did

:24:20.:24:26.

change the way things were thought about in Eastern Europe and made

:24:26.:24:29.

possible the peaceful revolutions. Of course, there's a difference

:24:29.:24:34.

between idealogy and ideas and that's what you are talking about

:24:34.:24:37.

with the French or Russian revolution. You put your finger on

:24:37.:24:40.

it by saying it's independent thinkers. It's hard to read a

:24:40.:24:44.

political party and at the same time wear the clothes of an

:24:44.:24:48.

intellectual. That's the problem Ed Miliband's got. How can he pretend

:24:48.:24:54.

to be be an independent Professor and at the same time the Head of A

:24:54.:24:59.

major political party. It doesn't tend to sit well? I tend to agree

:24:59.:25:03.

but he can be keen on ideas and keen on fostering an intellectual

:25:03.:25:07.

debate. Thank you all very much indeed. An keen on ideas which you

:25:07.:25:11.

can get from other parts of the world, that's the other point. The

:25:11.:25:14.

economy's globalised and so is politics and some of the best ideas

:25:14.:25:17.

in Britain will probably come from other parts of the world and that's

:25:17.:25:21.

a very good thing too. Thank you very much. Old people - they are

:25:21.:25:24.

everywhere. You must have noticed. This is not a uniquely British

:25:24.:25:29.

problem if at all. The UN says the number of old people in the world

:25:29.:25:33.

is growing faster than any other section of the population. Absurdly,

:25:34.:25:37.

they define the old as those over 60. There will be over a billion

:25:37.:25:42.

within a decade. Watch out. Joe Lynam reports.

:25:42.:25:46.

In a rapidly developing world, the once yawning gap between the

:25:46.:25:50.

developed and developing world is closing. Where the old challengers

:25:50.:25:55.

were to simply survive childhood, the new 21st century is to how to

:25:55.:25:58.

manage old age. The UN population fund and help age international

:25:58.:26:02.

welcomes the fact that people are living longer but said that

:26:02.:26:05.

developing countries had to urgently think up new approaches to

:26:05.:26:10.

health care, retirement and intergenerational relations.

:26:10.:26:14.

According to a report, rapidly changing demographics make the case

:26:14.:26:20.

forurgent action. A decade from now, there will be one billion over 60s,

:26:20.:26:25.

and by 2050, that figure will have reached two billion, when for the

:26:25.:26:29.

first time, there'll be more people under 60 than under 156789 older

:26:29.:26:33.

people, as defined by the UN rrbgs the fastest growing age group of

:26:33.:26:39.

all -- the UN, are the fastest growing group at all. Longevity is

:26:39.:26:44.

an economic problem in many wealthy countries. Young people are brought

:26:44.:26:47.

up knowing it's their role to provide for older family members.

:26:47.:26:52.

Because that's not the case in developed country, the state tends

:26:52.:26:56.

to have a bigger role in taking care of the old. This UN report

:26:56.:26:59.

says less well off countrys are sleep walking into a problem

:26:59.:27:03.

because as they get richer, they are not making sufficient provision

:27:03.:27:09.

for older people in the future. Therefore a few things that we can

:27:09.:27:15.

do to minimise that problem, not to solve it, but to minute news. One

:27:15.:27:22.

of them is to raise the retirement age which in Brazil is very low.

:27:22.:27:30.

Many people in private and public sector retire very early. We can

:27:30.:27:35.

definitely, through public policy, minimise part of the fact of

:27:35.:27:38.

population ageing. Half of those country where is

:27:38.:27:42.

there are at least ten million over 60-year-olds are in developing

:27:42.:27:46.

economies. In China, the world's most rapidly growing large economy,

:27:46.:27:50.

the one child policy makes the problem of longevity even more

:27:50.:27:54.

acute and means the country will be old before it's rich. China's

:27:54.:28:01.

fertility rate stands at 1.6 births per woman, far below the 2.1 needed

:28:01.:28:05.

to sustain a growing population. The report makes recommendations -

:28:05.:28:08.

older people shouldn't be force totd retire by a certain age if

:28:08.:28:13.

they wish to work longer. Britain ended that practice this year.

:28:13.:28:16.

National health care plans should automatically include special

:28:16.:28:19.

provision for the needs of older people. Young people should be

:28:19.:28:22.

educated in such a way to make them less economically dependent when

:28:22.:28:27.

they get older, and the UN also suggests that older people's rights

:28:27.:28:32.

should be enshrined in law to protect them from discrimination.

:28:32.:28:35.

South Africa is developing rapidly and has a young population coming

:28:35.:28:39.

through the afternoons. It's also been dealing with the effect of HIV

:28:39.:28:42.

AIDS which has devastated many parts of the country. That has

:28:42.:28:48.

thrown up further problems and even a grim advantage.

:28:48.:28:53.

We've called it the demographic dividend that we are reaping at the

:28:53.:29:03.
:29:03.:29:04.

moment. In the sense that the - there was quite a dramatic decrease

:29:04.:29:11.

in life expectancy, as a direct consequence of HIV AIDS, and

:29:11.:29:18.

subsequently with the roll out of retrovirals on a widespread basis,

:29:18.:29:26.

we have seen a substantial recovery in life expectancy generally.

:29:26.:29:30.

Global prosperity means we are having fewer children and they are

:29:30.:29:33.

living longer. Soon there'll be more dependents than people

:29:33.:29:37.

actually working. The message from the UN for all of us is, ignore our

:29:37.:29:41.

population growth today and you will be storing up economic

:29:41.:29:47.

problems tomorrow. Professor Heinz Wolff is with us,

:29:47.:29:50.

he believes that people should volunteer as carers in exchange for

:29:50.:29:54.

care when they get old. The writer and environmentalist George Monbiot

:29:54.:29:58.

is here and we are joined from Harvard university by Professor of

:29:58.:30:08.
:30:08.:30:09.

International Development, Calestous Juma. Why is old age bad

:30:09.:30:13.

for society? It's bad simply because you need younger people to

:30:13.:30:16.

supply the money and the care, the labour that the older people are

:30:16.:30:21.

going to need. I mean, if people are retiring, they continue to

:30:21.:30:26.

retire long before they die, then you have this great demographic

:30:26.:30:29.

burden at the top of society which someone is going to have to service.

:30:29.:30:34.

If the population of young people is declining, as it probably will,

:30:34.:30:38.

as countries go through democratic transition, that will become harder.

:30:38.:30:42.

Do you have a solution? We are going to just have to face this

:30:42.:30:46.

pain. Some people talk about we need to keep the population growing,

:30:46.:30:51.

like the old lady who swallowed a fly, we swallow a spider, a bird, a

:30:51.:30:55.

cat, then make the problem bigger in order to solve the problem in

:30:55.:31:00.

2030 or 2050. We desperately need to start planning for that

:31:01.:31:03.

demographic downturn and accept that it will happen. What is this

:31:03.:31:08.

idea of yours, Heinz Wolff? It's not an idea, it's actually

:31:08.:31:11.

happening. The young foundation, myself and my university, have

:31:11.:31:16.

start add scheme called Care For Care, people like you or him or

:31:16.:31:19.

anybody who has any facility to give care to somebody else, will do

:31:19.:31:24.

so for three, four, five hours a week, and in exchange, they'll get

:31:24.:31:28.

a care credit on their bank account, measured in hows, which is then

:31:28.:31:34.

used to give them the care when they actually need it in their 7s

:31:34.:31:39.

and 80s. This is working. We are a pilot in the Isle of Wight. By 2015,

:31:39.:31:44.

and I'm really bragging now, I hope to have one million people doing

:31:44.:31:54.

this. And who administers this? Care for Care will be an

:31:54.:31:58.

organisation, care in the community company, there's very little money

:31:58.:32:01.

involved because it's run by an alternative currency. If a 40-year-

:32:01.:32:06.

old man or woman does the requisite amount of time to be entitled to

:32:06.:32:10.

several weeks or months perhaps when they need need it, who makes

:32:10.:32:17.

sure they get it? Well, this is the most commonly asked question.

:32:17.:32:24.

answer it? It's the next generation. It's only possible... So the next

:32:24.:32:28.

generation If the then generation is as keen to make provision for

:32:28.:32:33.

their old age. If they don't want to? Of course they do. What do they

:32:33.:32:37.

do, die in the streets, don't get their bottoms wiped. Professor

:32:37.:32:40.

Calestous Juma in Harvard, you have been listening very patiently.

:32:40.:32:43.

There are some suggestions that the real growth here is in the

:32:43.:32:48.

developing world. These problems in the developed world, we are

:32:48.:32:55.

slightly familiar with them, aren't we? Yes, in fact we have evidence

:32:55.:33:01.

of that already in the developed countries and we have some very

:33:01.:33:05.

interesting responses to that challenge. If you take two

:33:05.:33:10.

countries, Japan and Denmark, they've already responded to that

:33:10.:33:13.

challenge but technological innovations that involve

:33:13.:33:17.

recruitment of technology such as robotics to help home care and

:33:17.:33:23.

secondly, the decentralisation where homes are becoming hospitals.

:33:23.:33:26.

Nice to the proposals that have been put on the table, we need to

:33:26.:33:30.

lack at what countries are already doing today because this will have

:33:30.:33:34.

implications for what can be done in the future. But you don't think

:33:34.:33:39.

you could have robots caring for the elderly in the developing world,

:33:39.:33:44.

do you? I think some of that is already

:33:44.:33:53.

happening with recruitment of things to industrialised nations.

:33:53.:33:59.

As the population expands and ages, we are going to see greater demand

:33:59.:34:04.

for medical care in other countries that will make it more difficult to

:34:04.:34:07.

have that live skill migration of experts.

:34:07.:34:12.

You were referring to this question of migration a moment ago? Well, I

:34:12.:34:15.

think that migration has got to be part of the answer. There are

:34:15.:34:20.

countries which are going through the demographic transition long

:34:20.:34:24.

after certain countries like our own start to age and bringing in

:34:24.:34:29.

younger carers has just got to be part of the solution. It's hard to

:34:29.:34:33.

see how we'll cope without it. They'll get old themselves and need

:34:33.:34:38.

carers? Sure. We are facing a bulge. It lacks as if populations are

:34:38.:34:42.

heading for about nine or ten billion. They then plateau then

:34:42.:34:46.

decline. During that period of plateauing and declining, before

:34:46.:34:52.

they reach a stable lower level, we are going to see all sorts of

:34:52.:34:55.

dislocations and disruptions. It will be very difficult to manage.

:34:56.:35:00.

There isn't a single solution which is going to sort it. We've heard

:35:00.:35:04.

two reasonable approaches here, but neither the technology, nor the

:35:04.:35:07.

caring credits by themselves are going to sort this out. There's

:35:07.:35:11.

going to have to be a whole raft of measures. It will be a very

:35:11.:35:15.

difficult time. Can you imagine a global agreement on this matter,

:35:15.:35:22.

Heinz? No. And there are problems anyway of mixing different ethnic

:35:22.:35:31.

origins. An old lady who is 83 in this country isn't going to be care

:35:31.:35:35.

ford by an 18-year-old Polish student. It simply doesn't fit.

:35:35.:35:40.

I've done the sums. It's already happening, surely? No, it's

:35:40.:35:45.

happening by and large that elderly people care for old people and the

:35:45.:35:50.

word medical which we heard from Harvard just now, it isn't just

:35:50.:35:54.

medical, it's lonelines. The most corrosive thing that hits single

:35:54.:35:58.

people living by themselvess is they're lonely and quite often this

:35:58.:36:06.

is the basis of whatever diseases they've fallen into later on.

:36:06.:36:13.

shouldn't a Polish student be as much a companion to an elderly

:36:13.:36:18.

person? It doesn't fit. This has to be a certain amount of empathy

:36:18.:36:26.

between the people. We have to accept that similarly, as we have

:36:26.:36:31.

an effort to bring up children, we have to put effort in towards the

:36:31.:36:38.

end of our lives to look after old people. I spent 60 years designing

:36:38.:36:43.

gadgets of one kind of another, not necessarily for old people, and I

:36:43.:36:47.

calm to the conclusion four years ago that this is the only tool we

:36:47.:36:52.

need. Hands? Hands. And that anything which increases the number

:36:52.:36:55.

of people who're prepared to make some effort in care, and it only

:36:55.:37:00.

takes four or five hours a week per person, if 10% of the population

:37:00.:37:04.

did it, then we have a real solution which would give us partly

:37:04.:37:10.

over the bump -- get us partly over the bump. Do you get any sense,

:37:10.:37:15.

Calestous Juma, we see some signs of it here in Europe, of an

:37:15.:37:18.

increasing resentment of old people because it's not their fault

:37:18.:37:21.

they've lived a long time and they want to stay alive and medicine's

:37:21.:37:25.

got much better, but there is an increasing resentment. Do you see

:37:25.:37:32.

it elsewhere in the world? I don't see it as a source of

:37:32.:37:35.

friction at all, particularly in the developing countries where the

:37:35.:37:40.

age structure is different. I think the real concern...

:37:40.:37:47.

Oh, dear. That was... Can I pick this up? Off into the dark night of

:37:47.:37:52.

the mid Atlantic I think. Do you want to say something quickly?

:37:52.:37:56.

genuinely fear that by the time I'm an old crock, I will be hated by

:37:56.:38:01.

the younger generation because there will be a heck of a lot of us,

:38:01.:38:03.

perceived as a huge economic burden which will be hard to sustain and

:38:03.:38:08.

they'll be saying, you had a great time, you screwed up the planet's

:38:08.:38:12.

resources, consumed far more than was sustainable and now you are

:38:12.:38:16.

asking us to look after you. It will be politically challenging as

:38:16.:38:21.

well as economyly. I don't think you are right. The problem will be

:38:21.:38:26.

that some people make provision for their old age by the way I've been

:38:26.:38:31.

explaining and possibly by other ways, and other people will be

:38:31.:38:35.

feckless, a lovely word, some will be feckless.

:38:35.:38:40.

Thank you both very much. It's October 1st. 50 years ago today, a

:38:40.:38:45.

young man enrolled at the University of Mississippi known as

:38:45.:38:52.

Ole Miss. James Meredith was black- and-white people were outraged. He

:38:52.:38:56.

could only attend class under guard. There is a black President running

:38:56.:39:01.

for re-election next month. In an interview with Sol before River,

:39:01.:39:06.

James Meredith has been talking about those days and the journey

:39:06.:39:15.

his country is still making -- Sol B River.

:39:15.:39:19.

NEWSREEL: James Meredith wins his fight in Mississippi and becomes

:39:19.:39:26.

the first negro known to register many the state university...

:39:26.:39:31.

I was per peptive enough to know, particularly the first time I came

:39:31.:39:35.

home to visit my mother, when I joined the United States military,

:39:35.:39:42.

when I got to the Mississippi River on the Greyhound bus, the bus

:39:42.:39:46.

driver stopped the bus, drew a black curtain in the back of the

:39:46.:39:52.

but and made all blacks get be hind the back what curtain. It didn't

:39:52.:39:57.

take a genius to figure out that I wasn't enjoying all my rights and

:39:57.:40:07.
:40:07.:40:07.

privileges. I came back to Mississippi in 1960. I came back to

:40:07.:40:12.

launch a war against white supremacy with the intent of

:40:12.:40:17.

destroying it. On gaining admission to the university, you had to have

:40:17.:40:21.

constant protection and you had to deal with a great deal of isolation

:40:21.:40:31.
:40:31.:40:33.

and how did that feel? I spent four terms at the university. I never

:40:33.:40:40.

saw one person this -- one person there, period. Your father's house

:40:40.:40:48.

was attacked twice during your time at Ole Miss and the house was shot

:40:48.:40:55.

at, win toes shot through? I lived in my daddy's house 17 years. Never

:40:55.:41:03.

once did he go to bed without a loaded shotgun over his head. He

:41:03.:41:08.

used to tell me all the time, everybody knew he carried a pistol.

:41:08.:41:15.

What people didn't know, he always carried two.

:41:15.:41:20.

There was an occasion where you'd be eating in the cafeteria and

:41:20.:41:25.

there would be a bomb threat and the cafeteria would have to be

:41:25.:41:29.

evacuated and of course it was a false alarm. This thing continued.

:41:29.:41:34.

What other kind of threats were made that disrunned your day to day

:41:34.:41:42.

life at the university -- disrupted. Once I put the President of the

:41:42.:41:46.

United States in a position where he had to use the military might of

:41:46.:41:55.

the United States of America to protect my rights as a citizen.

:41:55.:42:04.

Why were so many troops required in order to come to your aid? If they

:42:04.:42:08.

had have had to call the whole two million, it would have been

:42:08.:42:18.
:42:18.:42:19.

justified. Not just for me, for any citizen.

:42:19.:42:29.

America is about citizenship and I was born a citizen. Every right and

:42:29.:42:38.

privilege there was automatically belonged to me and the idea that

:42:38.:42:43.

someone has a right to any privilege I don't have is just

:42:43.:42:47.

absolutely against anything. idea of negotiating civil rights,

:42:47.:42:51.

you described as an absolute obscenity?

:42:51.:42:57.

The whole so-called civil rights whatever it is that you want to

:42:57.:43:05.

call it was an insult, not just to me, it was an insult to the citizen

:43:05.:43:12.

Shinn, in effect what the so-called civil rights movement position was

:43:12.:43:18.

and still is that we good white folks will help you non-whites who

:43:18.:43:26.

don't have the rights we do, although every citizen's supposed

:43:26.:43:30.

to. If you acknowledge you don't have all of them, we'll help you

:43:30.:43:38.

threat three or four that you can enjoy. And at this time, what the

:43:38.:43:44.

whole thing up at Ole Miss is about is saying that we have given you

:43:44.:43:50.

these three or four of your rights and it's progress and you ought to

:43:50.:44:00.
:44:00.:44:08.

A march is a protest to get someone else to do better to grant you your

:44:08.:44:14.

rites and privileges. So what has changed in the South?

:44:14.:44:20.

Absolutely nothing. I went to war 50 years ago and I'm

:44:20.:44:30.
:44:30.:44:33.

No matter what happened, the most important thing in American history

:44:33.:44:37.

is the election of Barack Obama's President of the United States. And

:44:38.:44:43.

it ain't going away. He can go on for ever, as long as the United

:44:43.:44:50.

States is the United States, he's going to be an African-American, a

:44:50.:44:55.

half African, half American, President of the United States.

:44:55.:45:00.

He's a President, not because he's pwhack or white, but because he

:45:00.:45:05.

dominated Harvard university -- black or white. It's almost the

:45:05.:45:10.

same as the Dallas Cowboys having their first black quarterback. I

:45:10.:45:16.

mean, the Dallas cowboy didn't shame on a ship. I mean, nothing

:45:16.:45:22.

else has changed. What's changed in America in regards to having an

:45:22.:45:26.

African-American President? Literally nothing, white supremacy

:45:26.:45:32.

still reigns. I should ask you what your legacy might be?

:45:32.:45:42.

Well, I just hope before I die I get the enemy in the knowledge,

:45:42.:45:47.

that I'm 23n a war with them and that they have won the war almost

:45:47.:45:54.

all the time and that maybe I'll have one victory. But they don't

:45:54.:46:04.
:46:04.:46:05.

even acknowledge that there's a war. That hurt my heart so much, that

:46:05.:46:09.

Mississippi people feel so powerful, they don't even acknowledge I'm big

:46:09.:46:14.

enough to call myself at war with them.

:46:14.:46:18.

James Meredith, thank you very much. And that is all from us. We are off

:46:18.:46:26.

clubbing where we'll be dancing along to Psy sigh the pudgy South

:46:26.:46:33.

Korean whose music's become the most watched of music on YouTube.

:46:33.:46:43.
:46:43.:46:46.

Queen Beatrix learned the moves and Clare Balding's taught her horses.

:46:46.:46:56.
:46:56.:46:56.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 50 seconds

:46:56.:47:47.

The weather is downhill in the south-west. As the wind freshens by

:47:47.:47:51.

the afternoon more showers and longer spells of rain. Showers

:47:51.:47:56.

continue through the day. Pegging back temperatures in the wind.

:47:56.:47:59.

After brief respite, wetter weather moves north across Northern Ireland,

:47:59.:48:05.

maybe getting late sunshine as the rain pushes into south-west

:48:05.:48:08.

Scotland. North-east Scotland may be seeing the best waench with

:48:08.:48:17.

plenty of sunshine. Few shurz in Inverness. Just 11 or 12 degrees.

:48:17.:48:19.

It's brighter around the middle part of the week. As you head

:48:20.:48:23.

further south across the UK, there's the rain coming into

:48:23.:48:26.

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