Browse content similar to 15/11/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The Congress is over, the new man's in place, now the world's watching | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
for China's next move. But do the Chinese themselves have any great | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
expectations of their new President. On the streets we found | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
indifference to the new leader, and the party knows it faces dangerous | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
levels of mistrust. Each of our guests knows China | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
intimately, is there any certainty about what happens now? | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
Tilting at windmill, is the great drive for on shore energy about to | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
hit the doldrums. A Conservative MP take on his Lib Dem colleague and | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
rival over the need to recommit to renewables. | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
Also tonight, doesn't this drive you crazy, it is a menace, it is | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
harassment, and it is everywhere. We will tell you why the PPI claims | :00:55. | :01:05. | |
:01:05. | :01:10. | ||
business is growing, and why Good evening. The man who will lead | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
the most populist country in the world was confirmed in post today. | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
Xi Jinping, and his committee of six, will be in charge of one | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
billion souls for the next decade, all of whom have big economic | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
expectation. Whether bigger wealth, healthcare or pensions, many also | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
desire more personal and political freedom. What will his rule look | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
like? Less corrupt? Expansionist? Will growth stutter? Will social | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
media become an unstoppable engine of change? We will discuss all this | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
and more in a moment. First, Paul Mason witnessed the Changing of the | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
Guard. Kirsty, hello from the first | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
freezing cold and foggy dawn of the Xi Jinping era. | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
What do we know about him? He's the son of a revolutionary leader, he | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
has strong links with the military. He has run three provinces in China | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
the size of small European countries, and run them well. And | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
he does not speak like a "speak your weight" machine. What else do | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
we know? The obvious signals are that the party has been given. He | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
has been given simultaneous control both of the party and mill | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
treatment we will not get one of those torturous handovers from one | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
generation to the next that we had ten years ago. The small | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
commitmenty that runs the party has been cut -- committee that runs the | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
party has been cut from nine to seven. From that party there is a | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
near majority of conservatives, so, there is clearly a change. There is | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
a change of guard. We also saw him become slightly emotional in his | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
speech. He really gave a speech, rather than a report. | :02:52. | :02:58. | |
In terms of setting the tone, even as he was speaking, live to the | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
Chinese people, the strapline underneath him on state TV was | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
saying, the country faces serious challenges. If we have been focused | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
on this leadership handover, what we may have underplayed, and what | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
is most significant, is the outgoing leaders, and the in coming | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
leaders, are now talking openly about the party's crisis of | :03:20. | :03:30. | |
:03:30. | :03:31. | ||
legitimacy. The international unites the human | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
race, goes the anthem. One sixth of the human race is governed from | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
this hall, by a party determined to cling to power, and to go on | :03:41. | :03:50. | |
playing the old tunes. Hi, thank you. | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
Resolution of the 18th Congress of the Communist Party. On the report | :03:54. | :04:02. | |
of the central committee. Thanks. At this session, they are amending | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
the party constitution, the man on the left, Hu Jintao, is having his | :04:07. | :04:14. | |
own personal theory added to the theory of his predecessor, Jiang | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
Zemin, on the right. I have tagged along with party member, Mr Woo, a | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
press reporter, to find out what it means. What is important to your | :04:23. | :04:33. | |
readers about all of this? We are very concerned about the transition | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
of power, who is going to be in the leadership. Not really too much | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
about what's in the constitution. It is theory, these are too | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
abstract. But the readers want to know who is who? Who the next | :04:46. | :04:53. | |
person? Definitely. The man in the middle Xi Jinping, | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
is the in coming leader, he will have to represent between business | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
and the new elite, and the needs of workers, and peasants and the | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
middle-class. The real mystery in this Congress is still, why is the | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
old guard leader, Zemin right, front and centre for the party. Is | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
he there to symbolise stability, while the new leadership pursues | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
rapid change. Or is he there, on the contrary, to signal that there | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
won't be any rapid change. You would like to think that 25 people | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
in the leadership of this party of 60 million know the answer, but | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
maybe, nobody knows. With the conference over, the real | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
decision making is about to begin. The party carefully recruits from | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
all over China, workers, the middle-class, the ethnic minorities. | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
As the delegates disperse, behind the scenes they are picking the | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
seven-man team that will lead China, that is where the struggle is going | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
Meanwhile, all over Beijing, the old guard is out. Volunteer | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
security people, many of them elderly. Tran If we find any kind | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
of -- TRANSLATION: If we find any kind of situation, any special | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
situation, we can give the local leaders a call straight away, and | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
the police or someone will come. Even here, they are aware the party | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
has to deliver more than it has done. | :06:21. | :06:29. | |
TRANSLATION: I'm concerned about housing, ordinary people's | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
livelihoods, our salaries, pensions and social order, these are the | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
things that I pay attention to. Here, this street is peaceful, in | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
fact, this street is called "peace and quiet avenue". What I'm really | :06:41. | :06:48. | |
worried about is rent. It is very difficult for us to rent a home. | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
What matters now is the make up of the standing committee that runs | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
the party. On a street corner, under a big screen, it is not | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
exactly masses of people who have come out to see who has been chosen. | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
Eventually, to a hall full of international journalists, the new | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
seven-man committee emerges. Xi Jinping will become President, the | :07:13. | :07:23. | |
:07:23. | :07:24. | ||
next man, Peng Liyuan, will be the PM. There is only one from the old | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
regime, and three are hardliners. This is the equivalent of a | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
presidential election in a country- times bigger than the United States. | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
It has only -- five-times bigger than the United States. It has only | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
happened twice in the modern history of this country. The | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
reaction on the streets is...You could say, not ecstatic. Eventually | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
we found some people who were interested. What do you think of | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
the election of Xi Jinping to be leader of China? I think he will do | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
his good job too. For economic or something like that. To help China | :08:03. | :08:12. | |
:08:13. | :08:15. | ||
get stronger. What is the number one thing you want him to do? | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
think maybe increase our salaries! What's the number one problem you | :08:20. | :08:28. | |
want them to address? TRANSLATION: I feel the main problem is the | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
civil administration. Another think Qishan, what's his name, needs to | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
solve is the problem of Taiwan and the problems of the disputed | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
islands. TRANSLATION: I like him, he's good | :08:43. | :08:52. | |
for the country, life goes on. is the short translation. | :08:52. | :09:00. | |
To them, and 1.4 billion like them, the new leader had this message. | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
TRANSLATION: Under the new conditions, our party face many | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
severe challenges. There are also many proseing problems within the | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
party that need to be he -- pressing problems within the party | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
that need to be resolved. Corruption, being divorced from the | :09:13. | :09:20. | |
people, going through formalities and butter oxism. The party knows | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
bureaucracyism. The party knows it could harm economic growth and | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
strangle innovation. It knows growth will have to come from more | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
consumption and a richer middle- class. It knows behind the apathy, | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
there is discontent. TRANSLATION: In the past year the | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
Chinese leaders are all reading one book, the book on the French | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
Revolution. People are worried China will have a revolution, we | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
don't want that. For this new leadership, they have just one | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
choice, that is reform. Otherwise they and China will be in big | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
trouble. What should they concentrate on, | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
politics or economics? TRANSLATION: Politics, of course. In economics, | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
the space for further growth is already very limited. Actually, the | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
Chinese people are already quite rich. What we need to solve now are | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
the political problems. ordinary people, who have had no | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
say in the outcome of this week, it is a case of dodging and weaving, | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
surviving. They will wait and see what a new set of people in power | :10:27. | :10:35. | |
can bring. We have been joined by Paul Mason | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
now. That independent scholar saying | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
there is only one choice and that is reform. How can that be | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
reconciled with a conservative committee of seven? We're in the | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
presence of experts, we soon will be. My take on the seven are, three | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
clear conservatives, three neutral technocrat, and one remnant of the | :10:57. | :11:07. | |
:11:07. | :11:08. | ||
liberal social welfare faction of Hu Jintao. That will be the new PM, | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
if we take that at a starting point, that is at odds with urban China | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
and young China is feeling. If it is a result of the way the party | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
has genuinely picked its leadership, we don't know, it probably means | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
the party is at odds with the way urban China feels. You could tell | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
from that package, they know that, but their reflex is to respond with | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
more control. Of the two big leaders who are being announced on | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
the front pages of the local newspaper today in Beijing, one is | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
the discipline guy. But they are going to have to address things | :11:39. | :11:47. | |
quickly. The corruption issue is not an abstract one, Muhammad Ali | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
will be dealt with and put on -- Bolshi Li, will have to be dealt | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
with and put on trial. They will have to get a foreign policy, the | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
dispute of China with the islands is playing out on the streets. They | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
will have to respond to that. talked about young China, is that | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
where the pressure is coming from, you spoke to two young women who | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
didn't seem to care less about what was happening. Is your sense that | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
they are the predominant area for change, that will be from the young | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
Chinese? We have had the chance to speak to lot of young people, | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
actually, while we have been here. And I think this is how it strikes | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
me. Three years ago, when I was here, did it matter that you | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
weren't on Facebook and Twitter and Tumblr, and your iPhone suddenly | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
gets switched off when the Congress starts, and you can't search on | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
Google for the term "18th Congress", it didn't feel like that. It feels | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
like now that China is adrift from a global conversation. That matters, | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
not just about democracy, but for business, for the business of doing | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
life in the 21st century. It does feel a little bit locked, and the | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
youth feel very locked into their own discussion on their equivalent | :12:58. | :13:07. | |
of Twitter, I would bow, that is a -- weibo, that is abuzz with | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
Sarkism, criticism and concern about national issues. You heard | :13:11. | :13:20. | |
the liberal intellectual in my piece talk about Alexis De | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
Tockville and the book about the French Revolution. On the eve of | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
the French parliament, the author said, "gentlemen, can't you feel | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
the earthquakes coming", that was on the eve of the French Revolution. | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
They have nobody to say anything for them here, they have nobody to | :13:36. | :13:46. | |
say anything whatsoever in their public discourse. With me here now | :13:46. | :13:54. | |
Are my guests. From New York I'm joined by a | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
former Tiananmen Square student leader, Chinese democracy activist | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
and dissident in exile. And from Beijing by the author, Jonathan | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
Fenby.Ed goo evening. First of all, -- good evening, first of all what | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
do you think the main desires are the people, you have family at home, | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
what are their desires? My family, I have brothers, and my mother, | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
they are two generations, and then I have my nephews and cousins. So | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
they actually have changed quite gradually in terms of their quality | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
of life. Their major concern is to get better education, and maybe get | :14:33. | :14:41. | |
a secure job, with a good salary. So the desire today is very | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
different from ten, 20 years ago, from the earlier generation. | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
that quite a big pressure, we heard from the older women in the film | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
saying they want houses they could rent, healthcare, pensions. They | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
are not prosaic demand, but they are very straight forward, they | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
don't seem to be related to essential freedoms? I think they | :15:03. | :15:11. | |
are different layers of a desire. You have to have enough food to eat | :15:11. | :15:20. | |
and clothe. In Chinese it is large ly that, this is contributed by Xi | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
Jinping's reform, this is a Chinese miracle. Today we are talking about | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
people moving in a different stage, a called well off society with a | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
better life. Then you have equality. That is now a problem, the | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
Government have to ease off. You are talking about free -- freedom | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
of speech and democracy. That is a higher level of requirement. | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
Where you sit in New York, you are one of the Tiananmen Square leaders, | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
this idea of this pressure building, do you think it comes, first of all, | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
from the idea that people want a better lifestyle, and a better | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
chance in society, rather than overt political requirement? These | :16:04. | :16:11. | |
are interlinked, people do want a better life, always. And then I | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
agree with the Professor, people often want humble, minimal things. | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
But these things and the political rights are closely tied together. | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
My family, my desire, or my desire of my parents, they want to see me. | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
We haven't seen each other for 23 years. I'm not changing the topic | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
from a National Congress into my family PD business. I'm talking | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
about China is conducting this kind of behaviour, Chinese regime | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
conducting this kind of behaviour, which is unheard in a western | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
democracy. This is the political fact. That has a very direct impact | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
to people's humble, minimum desires. And people must remember, for all | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
its sophistication, and all its economic interaction, that people | :17:01. | :17:09. | |
like you can't go home the Chinese artist, Wei Wei, is under house | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
arrest. This is all part of Chinese life. You were there ten days a | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
Isabel Hilton, when we talk now about the need to actually deal | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
with corruption, it is not a side bar to the economic life of the | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
country, isn't it, it is really central to the economic life of the | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
country? It is absolutely central, but it was, as I'm sure will be | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
confirmed, it was a huge issue in 1989. How long do we have to go on | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
talking about corruption. It has only got worse, since 1989. Funnily | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
enough with social media, et cetera, this idea of citizens surveillance, | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
that if they see a lowly official driving around in a Ferrari, they | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
report him or her. That was impossible before? It was | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
impossible before. But also the scale of corruption was impossible | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
before. The transition to the market, or the semi-market economy, | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
has opened this opportunity for this particular combination of | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
power and money in China. And the party is hugely enriched, if you | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
look at the figures of who are the richest in China, they are | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
predominantly in the party or associated with the party. But the | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
young people that Paul spoke to earlier, seemed non-plused about | :18:15. | :18:23. | |
the result. It was almost, as if it gets better for me then it is OK. | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
You are asking people who have no effect ofpb the outcome. They have | :18:27. | :18:34. | |
to accept what they are given, they can only hope As far as what people | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
hope for and want, what is the party afraid of, people no longer | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
trust it t they mock it liberally, people want health, they are afraid | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
of getting ill, many want afford treament, they know they will be | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
bankrupt, they have tremendous insecurities. The Chinese | :18:55. | :19:02. | |
leadership reading De Tockveiled, is there a fear now, looking at | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
what happens happening in Europe, a time of os terity, people not | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
having jobs -- austerity, people not having jobs, that the worst | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
thing that could happen in China is chaos? DeTockville said one of the | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
main reasons for the French Revolution is things had got better, | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
and the danger of rising living standards, which make people think, | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
no, we will not live as poor, downtrodden peasants for our lives, | :19:29. | :19:36. | |
we want rights. Referring back to things said earlier, there is this | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
sociopolitical undercurrent, that is very strong in China today. It | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
is not a demand for western democracy, as such, it is a demand | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
for rights to property, it is a demand for rights to free speech, | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
it is a demand for right to freedom from the horrible environmental | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
pollution. All these things people are beginning to reach out for, and | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
they want those. The great problem for Xi Jinping, which was evident | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
in his remarks about the need for social progress, yesterday, is can | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
the one-party communist state, with its whole apparatus and power | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
system, cope with those kinds of grassroots demands which are taking | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
place on an enormous scale in China. This is really the big story of | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
China, not the economic story, it is not the formal, political story, | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
it is the social story for the next five years. | :20:27. | :20:34. | |
First of all, I want to talk about Isabel Hilton, ten days ago, were | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
people talking about that undercurrent of discontent, that | :20:37. | :20:45. | |
people want things changed or not? I think it is very present. The | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
party want to put it in the context of without us there is chaos. When | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
they are talking about political reform, they are talking about | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
managing the kind of protests that Jonathan is discussing. And these | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
are very big protests. In the run up to Congress you saw the | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
Government backing down on major environmental protests. Will there | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
be, do you think, will it be like Tiananmen Square, if there is a | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
protest, or will it be something different? You heard from Paul | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
there, saying a new generation, access is global -- accesses global | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
media and 0 son, wants to be in touch with people. Will it be, like | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
if it comes, be like Tiananmen Square? I can't make that | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
prediction, I can report to you this, there are hundreds of | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
thousands of uprisings taking places current low every year, in | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
China. A different scale from different places. -- currently | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
every year, in China, a different scale for different places. Taking | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
a protest to Tiananmen Square it was suppressed 23 years ago, it has | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
established fear for people to do so. The anger and dissatisfaction | :21:55. | :22:01. | |
is very much present, and accumulating there. It is coming up | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
from different directions. Although it may not be another Tiananmen | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
Square, but the Communist Party know the power of something like | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
Tiananmen Square is definitely there. And then it is directly | :22:16. | :22:23. | |
threatening their stability. So the Chinese regime have been spending | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
more money on called maintaining stability than the national defence. | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
Basically, internal security expenditures has exceeded national | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
defence since 2007. The fear is on both sides. People are afraid of | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
the military supression for sure, when you see something like | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
Tiananmen Square happening, and then you kind of leave a fear for | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
sure. But the Communist Party, the regime has also a very strong fear. | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
Very briefly, do you think there is talk that it will be five years and | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
then after five years Xi Jinping will be able to effect the kind of | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
changes he wants to change. Do you think there will be a holding the | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
position for five years, socially and politically, or not? There are | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
two things they have to do to hold this stability. One is to really | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
get out and fight corruption. And establish a clean Government system. | :23:21. | :23:30. | |
That corruption can be prevented. I look at the new leader, they put | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
the person in to fight corruption, he's one of the most respected | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
politicians in China with a reputation outside. I have very | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
good trust in him. The problem with this task is it may be very, very | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
big, how they contend is depending on the number of factor. First of | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
all, the economy has to continue to grow. So the people, materially, | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
they can improve their living standards. So that this content can | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
be suppressed in terms of the improvement of living standards. | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
Then fighting the corruption, and clean up the environment. These are | :24:04. | :24:12. | |
the issues they have to deal with, urgently. | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
Wind farms, rising electricity cost, and forced lower tarrifs, nuclear | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
power station, the Green Deal. Are we not all drown anything a sea of | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
contradictory signals over future energy policy. The Government is | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
xek today publish the long anticipated Energy Bill next week, | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
with open warfare between the parties particularly on the | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
question of offshore wind, will politics or hard evidence dominate | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
the bill? On shore wind is one of the most | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
mature of our renewable sources of energy. Its opponents are vocal. | :24:49. | :24:58. | |
They see turbines as a blight, and resent taxpayer subsidies oinggon | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
that. There is a row over how many wind turbines like these we want to | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
build to meet our will electricity needs. What is the best energy | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
option environmental low, and how much are we, the taxpayer, prepared | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
to pay for it. Renewables advocates argue that the | :25:15. | :25:22. | |
cost of on shore wind is falling. On-shore wind, today, costs us | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
about 20% of what it cost us when we started to build it. As the cost | :25:26. | :25:34. | |
come down, we would expect the invent advisers in development of | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
wind to come down, incentivisers in development of wind come down. And | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
the Government accepted a 10% reduction in that support mechanism | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
What is a fair assessment of the economics of wind power. One | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
comparison is the relative cost of generating a unit of electricity. | :25:52. | :25:59. | |
Current estimates suggest on-shore wind comes out at the two-thirds | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
the cost of offshore wind. At its cheapest it costs about the same at | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
gas, at the most expensive it is comparable with coal. And it comes | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
in about the same cost as nuclear. Though researchers warn that | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
nuclear costs could rise. On shore wind is one of the most cost | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
effective options we have got, it is one of the most cost effective | :26:21. | :26:28. | |
low-carbon options we have got. Meeting our targets without on | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
shore wind would be particularly hard to do. This is where renewable | :26:32. | :26:42. | |
:26:42. | :26:46. | ||
28% from on shore wind, about half as much from offshore wind, and | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
then solar. Overall, renewable sources provide only Tyney slice sf | :26:51. | :26:57. | |
our total energy needs. Just -- tiny slice of our total energy | :26:57. | :27:03. | |
needs. About 10%. We are committed to producing 15% of total energy | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
from renewables. Those who prefer a free market approach, say subsidies | :27:08. | :27:15. | |
and targets are the wrong way to shift us to a a different energy | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
supply. The only targets that are mar are reducing carbon emissions. | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
The renewable energy target is not an important part of meeting that. | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
In some ways it gets in the way. A much better approach is a long-term, | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
and tougher carbon price, tkphrifrd either through a tax or through -- | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
delivered either through a tax or cap. Some support for technology. | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
But get to go a stage where these technologies -- getting to a stage | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
where these technologies compete against each other for the cheapest | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
way of delivering energy. On shore wind has become a flash point for | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
the coalition Government. With Conservative minister, John Hayes | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
complaining too many turbines have been peppered across the UK, and | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
enough a enough. His Lib Dem boss, Energy Secretary, Ed Davey, slapped | :28:03. | :28:10. | |
him down, he went on to Claire it is "job done" on wind. 100 Tory MPs | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
wrote to David Cameron demanding a cut to subsidies for on shore wind. | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
This close to the expected publication of the energy bill, we | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
believe there are dope disagreements within the Government | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
of getting drafting. Getting those complex details right will be key | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
to getting investment into the British power sector. Not just | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
interrenewables, but wind, gas and nuclear and the whole piece. The | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
difficulty is, that despite getting the detail right, even if the | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
Government gets the detail right, which remains to be seen. This | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
political wrangling over the whole low-carbon agenda, over the best | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
way to meet targets, and over the role for on-shore wind, is | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
undermining the aspirations of the bill. The key thing to understand | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
about MPs and politicians is we're not experts on the environment, | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
we're there to represent our constituents. Our contribution | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
really is to talk about the details. What it feels like in the local | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
area. What the effect there is on the local economy, and how it | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
affects people's homes and lifelyhoods. I think that matters - | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
- livelihoods, and I think that matters, and the Government will | :29:18. | :29:24. | |
listen. The bigger issue to focus on is energy for the next 30-40 | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
years. The row over on shore wind could take the focus away from the | :29:29. | :29:36. | |
bigger energy challenge managing a tough reduction in carbon eMiGs and | :29:36. | :29:43. | |
an energy supply we can rely on. Liyuan sits on the energy and | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
climate change Select Committee. And L Ron Hubbard from the Lib Dems. | :29:49. | :29:58. | |
The country -- Mark Hoban, from the Lib Dems. | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
The real point is Ed Davey, has made it clear the Government's | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
commitment is clear. We will make sure that the Government commitment | :30:05. | :30:13. | |
to provide 30% of UK elect trisry from new renewable sources -- | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
electricity from renewable sources continues. I'm sure that David | :30:17. | :30:24. | |
Cameron will make sure John Hayes sticks to policy. John Hayes, sorry, | :30:24. | :30:32. | |
Ed Davey disagrees with John Hayes, there will be no more on-shore wind | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
turbine, they are not going to happen. The commitment shared, we | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
will make sure the Conservatives stick to it, is to have the 60% | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
renewable component by 2020. There are a number of ways. As your | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
graphic showed, on-shore wind is by far the cheapest of those. It would | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
seem odd at this time for John Hayes to argue to spend more money | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
than necessary. We need to spend more money on renewables, it will | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
save a lot on gas bills. But on- shore wind has a great place. | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
quite obvious, that there is a deep devise in the coalition for this. | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
The Financial Times on-line has reported they have had to delay a | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
meeting of the Quad, because they can't even agree a policy a week | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
before the energy bill is published. Maybe you will have to give way and | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
say on-shore energy and renewable energy, needs to be ramped up | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
again? What matters here is actually what works. Coalition | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
politics will play out as it will do. I'm more interested in the | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
long-term energy future of my country, and if you look at it, on- | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
shore wind and particularly off- shore wind, isn't a way of | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
guarnteeing energy security in the future. We have obligations, Julian | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
is right, we have obligations with Europe, we have legislation in | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
place with regards to the proportion of renewables in the | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
energy mix. You don't want them to be wind turbine, you don't want on- | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
shore energy to be delivered by turbines? The difficulty is local | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
communities who have the wind farms don't want them. They would be more | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
likely to want them if the figures add up. I'm a scientist and so is | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
Julian, the physics of wind power doesn't add up. You mean the | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
science is underpinning George Osborne's anti-pathy to it? I think | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
the economics is underspinning that anti-pathy. Ultimately we have a | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
challenge with regards to energy in the near future. We have to solve | :32:30. | :32:40. | |
it, in the most cost pective way. George Osborne, -- Cost effective | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
way. George Osborne and Danny Alexander are completely divided on | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
this. What should the electorate make of it? It should make that we | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
are trying very hard to stick to our commitment, and I hope the | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
Conservatives will stick to the things that they said. We will make | :32:53. | :32:59. | |
sure this is the greenest Government ever. I was surprised by | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
the comment by Philip, about the physics of wind not adding up. | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
People around the countries are looking at wind because it is cheap. | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
We have reduced the supsidies to it because it is affordable and worked | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
well. The tragedy is we didn't do more wind power 20 years ago, when | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
the Shetlands were doing it. We could export the technology around | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
the world. It is a huge business growth for the UK, we shouldn't | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
walk away from it. You I do this what will govern this in the end, | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
sadly, one way or the other, will be politics, and not the scientific | :33:33. | :33:41. | |
evidence? Sadly, for my taste, as a former scientist, sadly, not enough | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
scientific evidence is taken account of. But the science it | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
clear, the chief scientific adviser in the Department of Climate change, | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
wrote an excellent book, Sustainable Energy Without Hot Air, | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
it goes through the science and how it adds up. There are lots of ways | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
of providing energy for this country, if you want to do it | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
without on-shore wind it will cost more. | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
If you haven't had text, e-mail or phone call, or all three, to say | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
you are in line for a big PPI payment, then, most probably, lucky | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
you. With at least �12 billion put aside by the banks to compensate | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
customers mis-sold payment protection plans, there is a new | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
growth industry in claims management companies. An associated | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
get-rich-quick and unregulated claims handler. They are the bane | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
of many people's lives. Tonight Newsnight explains how they are | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
doing it. It has been a long day at work, all | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
you want to do kick back in front of the TV. (phone rings) What's | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
this? One calling me. I bet it is one of my close friends calling for | :34:45. | :34:55. | |
a gossip. Autoed voice) Hello, did you know dfrpb (automated voice) | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
Did you know you could be entitled to compensation) No I don't. There | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
are plenty of options to get your money back if you were mis-sold PPI | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
insurance, with the help of the Government and ombudsmen groups. | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
You could use an intermediary firm to apply on the banks on your | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
behalf, claims management companies. They tell you the exact amount that | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
awaits you, you won't have to sign everything. Your verbal agreement | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
to act on your behalf acts as a contract, and business is booming. | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
For years having mis-sold shruerpbs in case you couldn't pay -- | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
insurance in case you couldn't pay a loan, the banks have admitted | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
they were wrong and they have agreed to put aside �13 billion to | :35:47. | :35:54. | |
pay out PPI. Almost half has been paid out already already. It | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
created many Companies Acting on customers behalf, and taking 25% | :35:58. | :36:06. | |
cut at least from every successful payout. Averages �100 fees for | :36:06. | :36:15. | |
middle men, -- �11 fees for middle men being -- �1100 fees for middle | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
men being paid out. Consumer groups are worried that there will be | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
victims twice? This business is unnecessary, and adds burden and | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
costs to the general public, who are actually the victims in all of | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
this, and shouldn't have to suffer more than they do already. Here are | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
the three ways a customer can claim money back if they have been mis- | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
sold PPI. The simplest way is by approaching the bank directly and | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
they will investigate and pay out if the claim is legitimate. Next is | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
customers to approach a CMC to act on their behalf, and to the banks | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
taking a fee of a quarter of what the bank pays out. This is where | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
the Spam texts and disembodied calls come in, this is number three. | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
Companies randomly generate mobile phone numbers in Britain, and text | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
or call them prop missing a big pay day. Someone nibbles, that | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
information is sold for around �40 to a more legitimate CMC, who then | :37:15. | :37:23. | |
pursues the claim. Spamers and cold callers are often, | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
but not often district from claims management companies. Spaming us | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
without our consent is illegal. Bombarding us with TV adverts is | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
not. If the claims management companies didn't pay the Spamers | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
for leads containing our information, then the telephonic | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
bombardment wouldn't have turned into the epidemic it has. | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
Hello. Do you know you could be entitled to compensation over mis- | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
sold payment protection insurance. I have had several calls, I'm not | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
interested. Spare a thought for the banks | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
originally mis-sold PPI, they have had to hire thousands of extra | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
staff to process the claims and rebates. Of the claims they get, | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
half come from claims management companies, of that number, 40% are | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
deemed bogus. Long dead customer, duplicate claims, people who never | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
bought PPI in the first place, the banks want to put a full stop on | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
the issue. They are lobbying hard with the FSA, to set a date beyond | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
which there may be no further claims. Don't expect that to happen | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
before 2014. Now the Ministry of Justice is also | :38:32. | :38:39. | |
concerned about this issue, in future, it wants all contracts with | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
CMCs to be in writinger rather that over the phone. That seems -- | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
writing rather than the phones. Until then the phone calls and | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
texts will continue, and the profiteering off the back of it. | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
What the hell is wrong with you, I'm not interested in making any | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
claims. How did you even get my number? Never call me again, all | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
right. I'm joined by Jacky Doyle Price a | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
Conservative MP who recently called a debate about claims management | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
company, and Andy Wigmore, from the Claims Standards Council. The trade | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
Association for Claims management companies. | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
Andy Wigmore, 85% of us are getting the calls and texts and on-line | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
stuff, because these guys are he will ising the information to your | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
claims management companies? Yeah, we can put this into some kind of | :39:26. | :39:33. | |
concept, this flood, this tsunami of text messages created by two | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
individuals, and out of the jurisdiction of this country. | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
say, "two" individuals, I would be surprised. Out of what country? | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
have identified where it is coming from, in India. They have this | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
superserver that randomly generates millions of these text messages. | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
doesn't matter, OK that is happening. They are presumably | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
enterprising guys and not stopping. The point is, people are giving | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
information, which you, your members are buying, of course they | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
are going to do it? Absolutely. You have to put it into some context. | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
Why is there an issue relating to this? It is because the banks, | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
remember, they stole �12 billion and the consumer has a right to get | :40:16. | :40:26. | |
that back. It is OK for me to get a text last week which says I'm owed | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
�5,500, and never heard a peep. It is OK for people, elderly, and | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
infirm, it is OK to get that? is random. There is no | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
justification. That is no justification. I agree, these | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
isolated individuals have flooded the market with the Spam text | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
messages. Not claim companies. one last thing at this stage, why | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
on earth do you suggest that your members should feel perfectly | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
legitimate to take information from these people? Because if we look at | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
what happened in the beginning. If the banks had got their act | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
together in the first place, you wouldn't have the issue. Kirsty, | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
people didn't know they had PPI or were entitled to it, that is why | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
you have the business allowing that to happen. Some claims are | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
legitimate and people have had money back? That's right. But the | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
reality is they don't need to use a claims management company to get | :41:19. | :41:25. | |
the refund. The banks have set aside the �12 billion, they call up | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
the bank and ask to put a claim in. The banks are backward rather than | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
coming forward with information? That is true, the regulator was | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
backward in coming forward with the information. We don't want to see | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
that repeated with these company. The ministry -- Companies. | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
Ministry of Justice looked at the regulation of the claims management | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
companies and didn't look at cold calling? This is regulatory, it is | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
regulated by Ofcom and the ICO. We have to match this up they need to | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
look at it. I'm a sure it doesn't feel to all the people getting | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
calls that it is underregulated? certainly doesn't. And it is really | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
becoming epidemic now. We are into that phase where there is still | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
this pot of money, and claims management companies have got the | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
opportunity to make lots of money out of it. They are trying | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
everything. It is cost-free and risk-free for them to do this. | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
Citizens Advice Bureau report cites a number of examples, an 84-year- | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
old woman, with a credit card, was not covered by PPI, but was | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
persuaded to go in with a claims management company, they charged | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
her �359 on a credit card, and she didn't have a PPI. That is wrong, | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
there are regulatory structure for that. There are a small proportion | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
of rogues giving the rest of us a bad name. | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
How do you know it is a small few? Those companies that operate | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
properly follow strict rules. The claims managed regulator has been | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
very effective cleaning up the industry. You can't control the | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
rogues, they are criminal, often, and these people will abuse the | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
consumer. You can say, I represent the claims | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
management council, and no claims management company is going to take | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
information from rogue traders in India? There are issues around it. | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
What is wrong with marketing in this context. Look at the Royal | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
Mail yesterday, they wanted to encourage more mail, the mailbox of | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
the 20th century is your phone, that will increase. The Citizens | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
Advice Bureau says you are out of control? I think that is a very | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
poor report. They have been involved in a lot of the regulatory | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
issues, they have seen a lot of the intelligence. Author of that has | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
been incredibly lazy or had his ear shut. I have to disagree with that. | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
My constituents have been coming into my surgery, giving exactly | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
these sorts of examples. I have a constituent who was cold-called by | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
a claims management company, she asked for the form, and submitted | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
it herself, and saddled with a bill of 30% of her refund. The company | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
did nothing to get her refund. Consumers don't know they have a | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
PPI or are entitle. Most people are on the fishing exercise. If they | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
don't want to use a claims management company they can do it | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
themselves. You are exploiting their lack of knowledge? If a | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
claims management company educates them, what is wrong with that, it | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
is giving the consumer the opportunity to get dedress and give | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
them the money the banks stole from them. How much of your work are you | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
getting through texts and on-line contact? It is a mix of marketing. | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
Most of the regulated claims management companies aren't allowed | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
to cold call, it is a criminal act, and they don't, the Ministry of | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
Justice is very hard coming down on these organisations. There is good | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
and bad companies, unfortunately it is the bad companies that give the | :44:46. | :44:53. | |
rest a bad name. What we need to do is keep the pressure up, Andy | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
represents 100 companies, there are 3,000 in the market. That is a lot | :44:57. | :45:06. | |
to catch up. On the night that Xi Jinping started his rule. Artists | :45:06. | :45:16. | |
:45:16. | :45:20. | ||
in London are recreating Chinese artist, WeiWei, the Gangman style, | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
and it was dis -- banned in China. The floor belongs to the Chinese | :45:26. | :45:36. | |
:45:36. | :46:03. | ||
# Go gangnamstyle # Go gangnamstyle | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
# Woop gangnamstyle Let's lift the gloom, the weekend | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
is brighter. Dreary and cloud through tomorrow. Rain turning up | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
across large parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland. Further south | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
a few brighter breaks, but generally rather cloudy, and | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
showery bursts of rain setting in across parts of Wales. Eventually | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
the north Midlands too. Further south and east, as you can see a | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
lot of dry, although overcast weather A few glimpses of sunshine, | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
perhaps towards the coast of the south-east, most will stay | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
stubbornly overcast. Rain setting in across parts of south-west | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
England and certainly west Wales. As we go into the evening time, it | :46:39. | :46:46. | |
could turn wet inside. -- indeed. In Northern Ireland a soggy end to | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
the day, not warm either, seven or eight degrees, that rain becoming | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
more widespread across Scotland, as we end the day, particularly out | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
west. Rain around as we hit the weekend. Good news is it will clear | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
away during the course of Saturday, brighter but colder, and the | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
showers across Scotland will fall down to low levels. Further south, | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
it will take a wee while for rain to clear. It are do, the sun | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
continuing into Sunday as well. That is good news. This is | :47:15. | :47:17. |