Browse content similar to 19/11/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Who can stop Gaza and Israel descending into a ground war. The | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
world can call for a ceasefire again and again, who holds the | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
cards? As we go on air, peace negotiations are happening, not | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
much goodwill on either side. Israel and Hamas both want it to | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
stop, and it is Egypt that holds a key role in mediating. | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
I will be asking the quartet spokesman, Tony Blair, is there | :00:35. | :00:42. | |
going to be a ceasefire? The Church of England is likely to | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
endorse female bishops, but parishioners can refuse their | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
minutes traigss. What do you think about the idea of | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
women bishops? I don't like it one little bit. I don't think you can | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
alter the word of God, that is what they are doing, in my humble | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
opinion. Equal in the eyes of God, a female bishop discusses with an | :01:03. | :01:13. | |
:01:13. | :01:14. | ||
Anglican who disapproves of her. # Nobody does it better | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
Britain may not run an empire any more, but apparently when it comes | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
to soft power, nobody does it better. Do the Olympics, James Bond | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
and the Queen, really make us the most influential country in the | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
world? Also tonight? | :01:30. | :01:38. | |
Is it you causing the panic attack. Witchcraft in Waltham stow, the | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
exorcists in Britain treating demonic possession. They can play | :01:44. | :01:54. | |
:01:54. | :01:57. | ||
with us, deceive us and even doctors. | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
Good evening, more than 100 dead in Gaza, three in Israel, as Israel | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
pounds the strip in retaliation for rocket attacks. President Obama | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
called the Israeli Prime Minister and the Egyptian President to | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
discuss deescalating the violence, witnessed so far in the six-day | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
offence. Benjimin Netanyahu, who has put four conditions on the | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
table for a ceasefire, including the promise of international effort | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
to stop Hamas rearming. How does that square with Egypt's proposal | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
for a ceasefire. Mark Urban, is there any sign of a ceasefire | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
tonight? We know there has been discussion with Egypt, and the | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
parties involved. It has been talked up with the Egyptian and | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
Palestinian sources, with the Israelis tending to talk it down. | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
Tonight the inner cabinet in Israel, including all the key decision | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
makers, went into session a couple of hours ago, and is still in | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
session as we week now. They are considering terms coming out of | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
Cairo, and also whether to continue postponing the ground operation | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
they have planned. We know from the similar limited conflicts against | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
Hezbollah in southern Lebanon in 2006, and Gaza in 2009, that once | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
the parties start these things, they find it quite hard to stop | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
them, without some sort of minimum terms. In both those previous cases, | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
without ground fight. In this case, the minimum terms are to do with | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
stopping the arms supplies from Israel, and from Hamas perspective, | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
ending the Israeli blockade, which means getting more access into the | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
Israeli economy. We don't know whether the two sides are prepared | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
to make the necessary conditions in order to achieve that at the moment. | :03:37. | :03:47. | |
:03:47. | :03:47. | ||
While that uncertainty carries on, the bombing goes on too. | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
Today's strikes in Gaza saw more targeting of individuals, as well | :03:51. | :03:59. | |
as rocket sites, leading to scores of casualties. In this attack, | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
Israel killed an Islamic Jihad militia commander, in the same | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
building that was being used by several news organisations. | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
This is escalation, no doubt. But both sides now seem to be searching | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
for a way out. In order for a ceasefire to be stable, I believe | :04:17. | :04:27. | |
it requires a mediated deal, an Egyptian-brokered deal. With a tri- | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
lateral understanding between Israel, Egypt and Hamas, in which | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
all parties' concerns are addressed. For example, Israel is highly | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
concerned about the smuggling of weapons, from Sinai, into Gaza. In | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
order to deal with that, you need an Egyptian commitment to do a | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
serious job along the border. Up to this morning, 860 rockets had | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
been fired at Israel. They say their missile defences knocked down | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
320, and that there has been a fall in the number fired from around 300, | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
during the first two days, to about 180 in the past two days. The cost | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
for the people in Gaza has increased, the death toll there is | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
now over 100, with three people killed in Israel. Hamas insist, | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
though, it is not fighting a war of diminishing returns. | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
TRANSLATION: We are the people of a just cause, we are not the | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
agressors against anyone. This is Palestine, whoever attacks | :05:33. | :05:42. | |
Palestine will be buried. Today Cairo became The Crucible for peace | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
mediation efforts, with the UN Secretary-General flying in, as | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
well as Israeli and Hamas delegations being in town. Egypt | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
has mediated past disputes, but now it has a democratic, Islamist | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
Government, that is much more supportive of Hamas. The position | :05:58. | :06:06. | |
of Egypt is not going to be repeated as Mubarak used to act. We | :06:06. | :06:15. | |
can see that clearly by withdrawing the ambassador from Israel. Ask the | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
ambassador, the Israeli ambassador to leave. That itself is | :06:19. | :06:28. | |
significant. Mr Morsi has clearly said, we are not going to leave | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
Gaza by itself. Facing this aggression. | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
Both sides now want a ceasefire, but equally, they both know that a | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
simple cessation of violence could look too much like a sticking | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
plaster solution, that will come apart when the next flare up | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
happens. So while terms that might be acceptable to the Israelis and | :06:49. | :06:56. | |
Hamas are searched for by mediator, there is the prospect of an Israeli | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
ground operation. That hangs over everybody like a Sword of Damocles. | :07:01. | :07:10. | |
It may follow the lines of 2009's ground push, severing Gaza's main | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
communications route, and halting normal life in much of the strip, | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
as well as producing hundreds of civilian deaths. Its purpose then | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
was essentially to raise the pain level for Hamas. Israeli generals | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
may now be contemplating something bigger. They have called up 80,000 | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
reservists, enough for three Armoured Divisions, they could be | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
used to cut the border with Egypt, along the called Philadelphia Road | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
line, as well as sever all communications in the strip. That | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
could produce higher civilian casualties, as well as | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
international outrage. Egypt is better positioned to influence | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
Hamas, because of the close relationship, and that affords | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
Egypt a unique position to broker a ceasefire, which they are trying to | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
do. I hope they will be successful. Tonight, there are reports that | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
agreement may be close. But also that the two sides are still | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
trading rockets for air strikes. One thing is clear, when a halt | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
does come, each side will try to convince its people that the past | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
week's suffering has been worth it. A little earlier, I spoke to the | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who is now the representative of | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
the European Union, the United Kingdom, the United States and | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
Russia, the called Quartet, on Middle East peace. | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
Tony Blair, first of all, who do you think has got the best chance | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
of brokering this ceasefire? Egypt. There is no real doubt, I think, | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
that the Egyptians are in the best position to try to broker the | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
ceasefire. I know they have been making very strong efforts to do it. | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
It is in their interests to do it. It is actually obviously in the | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
interests of the people in Gaza, because they are suffering, and you | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
know there has been a lot of civilian casualties there in the | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
past 24 hours. In it is in the interests of the people in Israel, | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
there is a million people in the south of Israel who are taking | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
shelter every night, in shelter, the schools are shut, and normal | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
life is impeded. So it is, frankly, in everyone's interests to get this | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
done. But, there are concerns that some of the longer-range weapons, | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
from Gaza, are actually being filtered through from Egypt? Well, | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
there are concerns, and one of the crucial issues is going to be, that | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
even if you get a ceasefire, what will then definitely come on the | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
agenda in order to deal with this, is the question of more weapons and | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
the longer-range weapons coming into Gaza. If Israel feels under | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
attack, then it will defend itself. Likewise, I hope that it is | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
possible, if we could calm the situation, to get to the point | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
where people in Gaza are allowed to live more normal lives. There are | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
two very, very clear objectives, for people in Gaza and people in | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
Israel, that should be secured. The one thing that is for certain is | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
that the longer these hostilities go on, the more innocent people | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
suffer. It is important to try to bring it to an end if we possibly | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
can. If there are weapons coming through from Egypt, is there no | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
pressure. Look, Egypt is getting so much aid from the US, and so much | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
from Europe, otherwise the country would really be in the doldrums s | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
there no pressure we can put on to make sure that this weaponry does | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
not come through from Egypt? Well, there is a lot of pressure going on. | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
But there are many different routes, I'm afraid, of weapons into Gaza. | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
And, to be fair to the Egyptian authorities, it is not always | :10:40. | :10:48. | |
possible for them to act in the way that, in theory, you would think is | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
possible. However, having said that, look, I think one thing is for sure, | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
that if what happens is that you have a ceasefire, but then there is | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
a restocking of armments coming into Gaza, - armourments coming | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
into Gaza, particularly the long- rage missiles and the Fage-5 | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
missiles with a range of 75kms. They are essentially from an | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
Iranian origin, if they start coming in, Israel will feel under | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
threat and it will act. Do you agree, the harassment of Israel by | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
weaponry from Gaza is as nothing as to the disproportionate response | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
from Israel, would you suggest it is disproportionate, look there is | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
over 100 dead? It is terrible that you have these civilian casualties | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
in Gaza, but the problem is this, once you start the hostilities, and | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
there are rockets being fired at Israeli towns and villages, and | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
Israel's got the capability through this Iron Dome to knock out about | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
eight out of ten of them, and of course the weaponry is far less | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
sophisticated, then you have Gaza, the Gaza strip is 20-25 miles long, | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
it is a few miles wide, you have 1.75 million people living there. | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
The rockets are fired out of densely civilian areas. The only | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
way, the only way of protecting the civilian population in Gaza is to | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
get the ceasefire. The only way you are going to do this is to stop it | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
and then deal with the long-term issues. And your role, as a | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
spokesman for the Quartet, the Quartet theself is not in favour of | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
talking toam mass, but you, I understand -- to Hamas, but you, I | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
understand, take a different line, that actually it would be good to | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
talk to Hamas? I'm bound by the Quartet principles, and they are | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
very clear, that we don't engage with Hamas, that Hamas can't come | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
into the peace process unless they give up violence and accept the | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
right of Israel to exist. My point is very simple, that it would be | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
sensible if you were able to have all the parties at the table, but | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
you can't really have that situation unless there is an | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
acceptance that it is only through political means and negotiation and | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
peaceful negotiation that you pursue your political objectives. | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
By the way, when, in the Northern Ireland situation, we began the | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
peace process, we did it only after the acceptance of Sinn Fein that | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
purely peaceful means would be used. That's actually the real sticking | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
point here. Look, that's for a later time. But right now what is | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
important, is, as I say, to deescalate the situation, bring | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
some calm and work on stablise it, not just for the short-term, but | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
the long-term. Both the EU and the US have called | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
for ceasefire, what chance would you give a ceasefire in the next 24 | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
hours? It is possible. The interests of Egypt, Israel and | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
people in Gaza are aligned, in this sense, that everyone wants to see a | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
cessation of hostilities. On the other hand, the only basis upon | :13:59. | :14:06. | |
which that will come, is that the cessation is genuine, and that | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
these longer-term questions go on the table and can be dealt with. I | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
don't know, quite honestly. I know there are very intensive efforts | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
that are continuing as we speak, I hope something fruitful will come | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
out of it. Thank you very much for joining us. | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
Of course, a small correction, the fourth member of the Quartet is not | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
the UK, it is the UN. If you were a betting person, your | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
money might be on a "yes" vote at the General Synod of the Church of | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
England, when the congregation decides whether or not to accept | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
female bishops. The yes is the outgoing Bishop of Canterbury, but | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
to pass the historic support must receive two thirds of bishops, | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
Clergy and lay members to become law. The battle is intense, even if | :14:55. | :15:05. | |
:15:05. | :15:06. | ||
it allows women bishops, they still won't be quite equal to the men. | :15:06. | :15:14. | |
Holy communion is celebrated at St James's church in Lower Gornal. The | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
incense and rites are High Church and deeply traditional. While women | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
make up most of the congregation, ministering to them is seen as | :15:23. | :15:30. | |
man's work. As for the job of donning a | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
bishop's mither, women need not apply. Mitre, women need not apply. | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
You can't change something the Church of England believes to be, | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
it is part of the holy apost tollic Catholic Church. You would need a | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
council to make it legitimate. there anything about the work of a | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
bishop that a woman couldn't do? think a woman can actually do the | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
functions, but it is the validity of the office, isn't it. | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
A so it is, that those who object to women bishops argue it is not a | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
matter of worldly discrimination, but biblical teaching. Christ, a | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
man, called 12 other men to be his apostles, so we may all be equal | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
before God, but not when it comes to leadership within the Church of | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
England. Afterwards over coffee, the | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
congregation was stirred up by the thought of the synod vote. I was | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
born a traditionalists, no doubt I will die aed traditionalists. | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
think they can do all the pastoral care very well, you know, but it is | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
the sacraments that I like to hang on to, as far as a male is | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
concerned. There is a place in the church for | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
women, I would admit, it is not the priest or the bishop, in my humble | :16:50. | :16:59. | |
opinion. The 12 disciples were chosen, they were men. So, there. | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
You are one of the youngest people in the congregation, what do you | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
think of the idea of women bishops? I don't agree with it. This is my | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
family church, these are my family beliefs, I will stick with my | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
family traditions. This place is found in the sprawl of Birmingham, | :17:16. | :17:26. | |
:17:26. | :17:33. | ||
but falls in the Worcester diocese. One thing that has surprised me, | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
the you get into the English countryside, and it doesn't get | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
more English than here, the more open people are to the idea of | :17:40. | :17:46. | |
women bishops. It is in the towns and cities where most of the | :17:47. | :17:54. | |
opposition lies. That's where the traditional anglo- | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
Catholic Churchs are concentrated. In rural areas like this, the | :17:58. | :18:06. | |
smaller number of parishs tends to make for more mixed congregations. | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
At holy Trinity, a special service is presided over by the Bishop of | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
Worcester, women make up a third of the church's Clergy, tomorrow he | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
will vote for them to become bishops too. The Church of England | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
has been hugely enriched by the women as priests, for over 20 years | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
now. I hope and pray with all my heart that the legislation | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
presently before synod on Tuesday will be passed. Because it will | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
enable us to be enriched by the Ministry of Women, not just as | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
priests, but as bishops. I think that will be of enormous benefit to | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
the church. The move is widely backed, although | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
the make-up of the General Synod means the vote will be close. | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
Rachel hopes one day herself to be ordained, and believes what's | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
written in the Bible is no bar. can go all the way through the | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
Bible and you can find things that will back up reasons why and | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
reasons why not. I think for me you just have to, if you look at some | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
women it is so clear that is the thing they are meant to be. Who are | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
we to say no. For the Reverend Lizzie Ship, | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
admitting women bishops is a matter of moving with the times, and | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
catching up with Anglican Churches in new zee is land, Australia -- | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
New Zealand, Australia and the United States. We have been | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
thinking about this, we have been arguing, spliting hairs over it for | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
the last 20 years, the time is right for the church, the time is | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
right for the nation. I think it is a manifest bidding of the Holy | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
Spirit that women should now be ordained as bishops. | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
In Oxford, this is home of the Bishop of Ebbsfleet, one of the | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
called "flying bishops", his job is to however over a vast area of | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
England, from Cornwall to Derby, he then swoops in to support those | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
parishs, like the one we saw at Lower Gornal where they don't | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
accept the authority of a bishop who has ordained women into the | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
priesthood. We see ourselves as part of the team of bishops, part | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
of the episs cop pal ministry of the Church of England, where pirbs | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
like any other bishops, but we do ensure that Clergy, parishs and | :20:28. | :20:36. | |
people of this particular tradition feel cared for, and I think we have | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
succeeded in hold ago lot of people in the Church of England who might | :20:39. | :20:49. | |
otherwise have found it difficult to remain. This accommodation may | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
well have stemmed the flow of Anglicans to the Catholic Church, | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
it will allow them to bypass women bishops too, but it is an unhappy | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
compromise. In order to keep those who are opposed to the legislation | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
you have to curtail women from functioning wholly as bishops. | :21:05. | :21:12. | |
There are some areas where they can't go. Those of us who feel the | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
Christian faith is clear that in Christ there should be neither male | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
for female, there is a part of us think that is not quite right. But | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
we want to value those and keep within the fold those who have | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
difficulties. Parishs around the country will be | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
watching, the next Archbishop of Canterbury hopes the faithful will | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
disagree in love. Another difficult compromise. | :21:39. | :21:46. | |
Having spent the day at at Westminster ahead of the vote, Emma | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
Forward is here, she was the youngest member of the Church of | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
England's governing body for seven years, and has been re-elected | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
recently From New Zealand we are joined by the Right Reverend | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
Victoria Matthews, the first woman to be ordained in the Anglican | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
Communion. Good evening to you both. The first episle to Timothy says "I | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
allow no women to teach or have authority over men, she is to keep | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
silent", Bishop Matthews do you believe that? I think that is part | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
of a scripttural witness. I have huge -- scriptureal witness, I have | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
huge respect for that. Part of that is also that Jesus, the Son of God | :22:28. | :22:38. | |
:22:38. | :22:41. | ||
was born of women, and so you could argue that the first person to | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
celebrate within herself the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
was a woman, the Virgin Mary. I also recognise the very first | :22:51. | :22:59. | |
witness to the resurrection was Mary Magdelene. Scripture should be | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
looked at as a whole, and balanceed with one witness by another. I'm | :23:04. | :23:14. | |
quoting the goes bells, that is a higher authority. -- Gospels, that | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
is a higher authority. My point about what was said about | :23:20. | :23:27. | |
the Virgin Mary, the way God called her was uniquely as a women, | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
something only a woman could do. We should look at scripture as a | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
whole, in his callings of every prophet and person we look at in | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
scriptture, he calls every person as their gender as a man or woman. | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
If the vote goes against you tomorrow, and the women bishops | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
will come into existence in the Church of England very quickly. | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
Does that mean for you that women are equal to men in the eyes of | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
God? The vote tomorrow is very interesting, because I would | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
actually say it is not entirely that if the vote going against me, | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
I feel the vote would go against the church, and future of the | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
church. The legislation that we have in front of us is potentially | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
very problematic, it is not lasting. Let as be clear, if it does go | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
against you, let's take your position in principle and in | :24:16. | :24:23. | |
religion, you would refuse to take communion from Bishop Matthews, | :24:23. | :24:32. | |
wouldn't you? Yes. And you would refuse it take communion from | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
anyone that Bishop Matthews ordained a priest, even if it was a | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
man? I would require the ministration of a male bishop and I | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
and many other people, many or women, many other young men and | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
women would have that same view. Bishop Matthews, what does that | :24:49. | :24:57. | |
make you think when you hear what Emma is saying? I'm a huge | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
respecter of conscience. I'm hearing Emma speak of her | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
conscience, and I respect that. I think that there will be a period | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
of time, as has happened in other provinces of the Anglican Communion, | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
where women in the Episocbate begins to be accepted and lived | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
through. But I'm in my 19th year as a bishop. | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
I have to say, I think I have enabled ministry, and mission, I | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
believe I have proclaimed the gospel, I don't think I have been a | :25:35. | :25:42. | |
barrier. So I actually see and it's not, of course, my vote at all. I'm | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
in another province. I see what is happening in the Church of England | :25:47. | :25:54. | |
as a matter of building a bridge and crossing it. I want to ask you | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
what you feel about the idea of "flying bishops", you don't have | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
these in New Zealand, this will only be in England. There will be | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
"flying bishops" who will move in, when people in your position are | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
about to give communion "flying bishops" can come, as it were, and | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
knock you over. What do you feel about that? Well, first of all, one | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
must remember that "flying bishops" are not new in England, they have | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
been there for quite some time. for this purpose? Since the | :26:25. | :26:32. | |
ordination of women as priests. for the stopping bishops? No, no. | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
Secondly, I take exception to the "knock me over"! What I have done | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
in the past, is to respect conscience. So I have, on occasion | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
said, would you care to come and share with me, in the service, so | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
that we are able to more fully minister to the needs of people of | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
a certain persuasion. It is not an arm wrestling, it is not a matter | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
of winners and losers, it is a matter of the body of Christ, | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
serving the body of Christ. I would completely agree with that. | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
You would agree with that, but the problem might be, Emma, is for | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
example, the new Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, is | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
leading the charge for the yes vote. You would be in the position where | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
you would not take communion from your own Archbishop, is that | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
compatible with your life in the church? It wouldn't be the case | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
that I wouldn't take communion from my own Archbishop. But it would be | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
somebody who would happily ordain a woman as a bishop? It doesn't work | :27:38. | :27:45. | |
in that way. I would agree with all of what Bishop Victoria said there | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
there are real positive ways we can work together. It is not the case | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
that we are looking to knock each other over, that we are looking to | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
push each other out of certain areas, we are looking for really | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
constructive ways to work forward. This legislation that we have in | :27:58. | :28:06. | |
front of us, tomorrow, doesn't offer that. That is why a no vote | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
is essential. Have you taken a bet on whether you | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
will get it? You don't bet, sorry. It is impossible to call. And it | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
doesn't work like that. What makes a country great, or gives it | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
potential clout around the world. Once it was military pow res, | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
mineral riches and industrial might, now something else is in play and | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
we do it well, which must be a godsend considering our economic | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
performance. According to a Monocle survey, Britain beats the world in | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
"soft power", invaluable when it comes to the exercise of global | :28:41. | :28:51. | |
power and influence. Danny Boyle's Opening Ceremony at | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
the Olympic was a demonstration of all things great and glorious about | :28:55. | :29:01. | |
our nation. The performance, watched by nine million people, | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
contributed to the UK's global influence via soft power. The term | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
was coined more than 20 years ago by an American economist, and | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
relates to the power of persuasion, compared to hard power, which is a | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
nation's economic or military might. The annual global soft power survey | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
by the magazine, Monocle, has ranked nations looking at 50 | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
factors based on quality of Government, diplomatic | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
infrastructure, qulure and business appeal. And -- culture, and | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
business appeal. Thanks to the likes of Bradley wig again, 007 and | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
Adele, the UK ranks number one, ahead of the US, Germany, France | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
and Swede. But is soft power an important symbol of our global | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
influence, or is it a consolation prize for a country that no longer | :29:52. | :29:58. | |
has any real clout. And just because we can boast such | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
influence, do we know how to use it to the best of our advantage. | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
The UK won't host another Olympics for a lifetime, and soft power | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
still requires a strong economy. Already snapping at our heels in | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
the soft power ranks are countries like South Korea, Brazil and China. | :30:16. | :30:26. | |
Nations which are not short of a bit of hard power as well. | :30:26. | :30:32. | |
Does Britannia rule the airwaves and not the actually waves. Joining | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
me is Chrystia Freeland, author of Plutocrats. | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
What is the basis of any traditional claim we have to soft | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
power? You started off in talking about this in saying military power | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
is not the game today, it is all about soft power, but actually, I | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
think you could argue that a lot of the soft power that Britain has | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
today you can trace it back directly to Britain's historic | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
military power. Britain has lost its empie, but it left the English | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
lan -- empire, but it left the English language, that is | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
continuously important in the Anglo-Saxon countries. You talked | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
about Germany, France, Swede not being so high up, it is much harder | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
to project speaking in Swedish. Which suggests as the axis of power | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
shifts in the world, that soft power will dissipate, no longer | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
necessarily will English be the dominant language in 50 years, who | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
knows? This will be an and tremenduously interesting balance | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
in shift in the world. English seems pretty thoroughly established | :31:34. | :31:43. | |
as the lingafranka, of the world, there will be more Chinese speaks | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
English than native English speakers in the future. Will they | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
still want London, New York, Los Angeles, to be setting the cultural | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
tone? I don't know. Is soft power, essentially a posh way of saying | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
PR? No, I think it is a lot more than that. I think it is about | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
cultural values, and those cultural values do become political values. | :32:09. | :32:10. | |
It is really interesting that Hillary Clinton, throughout her | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
time as Secretary of State, she started off emphasising something | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
she called "smart power", which was a latest twist on soft power, now | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
she's talking about "economic statecraft", with economic policy | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
being central to foreign policy. The other thing I think is so | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
interesting about this, is how far does it go beyond music, beyond | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
culture? Is it also about politics? When the Chinese go to Africa, | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
something that can be quite appealing for an African dictator | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
is the Chinese say, you can have economic growth, and still be an | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
authoritarian regime. It seems to me, before China wasn't really | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
interested in soft power, they didn't feel they needed it before? | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
The Chinese actually, I think, are really a country to watch when it | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
comes to soft power. They have been quite careful to frame their | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
emergence in world geopolitics as the peaceful rise. They talk about | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
a lot about how they are not interested in projecting military | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
force, much beyond our borders, we just want to grow strong | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
economically. Now as you see that economic expansion in other parts | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
of the world, there is a political message wrapped in there. | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
quickly do people forget the fact that the Queen, sort of, jumped out | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
of the helicopter, and Adele sings, and we had a wonderful Olympics | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
Opening Ceremony, and we had Bradley wig agains, that stuff | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
doesn't -- Wiggins, that stuff doesn't last very long does it? | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
may not. The big question to ask if you are a British person s how does | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
that translate into improving my -- is how does that translate into | :33:43. | :33:49. | |
improving my leave. Swede doesn't have a great soft power, they have | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
a grate Twitter feed if you are interested in soft power. But does | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
Britain's soft power make your life better as a Brit. If this | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
Government wants to continue the idea that Britain holds soft power, | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
what would it be investing in? would be invest anything you Kirsty, | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
in the BBC, it would be investing in British cultural institutions. | :34:08. | :34:18. | |
:34:18. | :34:19. | ||
Thank you very much indeed. Words for evil spirit s, Jin Jardoo, | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
possession, some not so familiar, all things that psychiatrists and | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
the criminal justice system are having to countenance. Research by | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
the University of Warwick are looking at a growing number of | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
people blaming mental illness on possession. | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
We spent ten months exposing why exorcists are teaching serious | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
illness and murd certificate explained away by the presence of - | :34:51. | :34:59. | |
- murder is explained away by the presence of evil spirits. Muddess | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
Khan works for a lettings Europe in Walthamstow in East London. He's in | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
charge of maintaining hundreds of properties. He works flexible hours | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
because he suffers from panic attacks, he has been signed off | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
work in the past and is on anti- depressants. I'm fine when I'm | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
working, if the day before, the night before, I do feel that it is | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
getting a little bit heavy, I wouldn't normally come in. | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
claims medication hasn't worked for him. Instead he says he's possessed | :35:30. | :35:40. | |
:35:40. | :35:42. | ||
by a Jin, a supernatural being. are burning. Who is burning you. | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
Ahhhhhhhh. You're burning. I'm not burning you, who is burning you? | :35:47. | :35:54. | |
Who is burning you? Who is burning you? I'm reading. What I am reading. | :35:54. | :36:04. | |
:36:04. | :36:05. | ||
What I am reading. Yes. You don't believe what I'm reading? Yeeesss. | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
Streeting him is Abu Mohammed, an exorcists who operates from the | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
back room of his home. He's summoning the Jin from inside the | :36:13. | :36:20. | |
man, he speaks to it directly you who is causing him panic attack. | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
Yeah. Is it him to sends him to hospital. What did you do? He's | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
well known, he has a waiting list months long, and charges �60 a | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
session for his services. He claims to remove evil spirits from people, | :36:33. | :36:41. | |
who believe therapysed, by reading passages -- they are possessed, by | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
reading passages from the Koran. The exorcist knows what he does is | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
some what controversial. While we are filming he is constantly | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
filming us, concerned we are going to distort what he is doing here. | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
My body feels battered, that is what it feels like. | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
Even now I feel a bit drowsy, it is slowly wearing off. All that | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
reading. You think you will feel better now | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
for having come here? Perhaps for the rest of the week? It will give | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
me a boost. It will yes, it is like a dose of medicine, innit. | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
There is a magic in this body. These views are not uncommon, among | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
British Asians in the UK, the belief in evil spirits is | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
widespread, that can be concepts like Black Magic, at the more | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
extreme it is the body is possessed, causing physical harm. The concept | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
of Jin is in the Koran, for British Muslim, in particular, there is a | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
theological grounding for their belief. What Jin actually are is | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
not universally agreed upon. Serving these communies are | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
hundreds of spiritual healers across the UK, some charging | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
thousands. In the course of making this film, I have heard evil | :38:00. | :38:07. | |
spirits and Jin blamed for epilepsy, for bipolar disorder, criminal | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
activity, even not getting a job. These called healers can be | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
harmless, even helpful to some, what is concerning academics is | :38:15. | :38:22. | |
when they replace medical care for serious problems. Jins they are | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
very unpredictable. When 20-year- old Nadine, whose name we have | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
changed, became ill, he and his family thought he had a spiritual | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
family, that he was possessed by a Jin. Came downstairs, my dad was | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
there, I said I feel weird, I said the walls look weird, and I can't | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
take it. A haerl was brought in to try to remove the Jin he felt was | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
inside him. When he didn't recover, his family took him to hospital. | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
The psychiatrist came and said what was the matter. He wasn't aware of | :38:54. | :39:01. | |
the Jins, he was shell shocked himself. He's now diagnosed with | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
schizophrenia and takes daily medication. | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
Do you, in any way regret getting medical help sooner? No, I'm glad | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
we went through the spiritual help first. | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
It is cases like this that cause concern for mental health | :39:19. | :39:26. | |
professionals, that, like many, his illness was instantly attributed to | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
possession. This professor has just completed a five-year study about | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
this, funded by the Department of Health. Here he presents his | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
results to a Sikh mental health conference in Birmingham. | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
extreme case I can think of in the last few years, is a Sikh gentleman | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
who became ill when he was 18. But the family sought help within the | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
community faith group. He didn't come to psychiatric intervention | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
for 13 years, we saw him when he was 3 1. By that time a lot of | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
damage is done. Any group of clinicians, working in an inner | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
city area, they will have all seen this, it is an every day experience. | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
It is not necessarily a problem of social class or education. So a lot | :40:12. | :40:19. | |
of people? A lot of people. Don't do this to her. Tell me what is you | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
are plan, what have you been doing? The professor says it is key its | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
patients admit to their religious ceremonies or healing, it can be | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
helpful, as long as it is not an alternative to medical care. What | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
has been found is that for some British Asians it is simply more | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
acceptable to be possessed than mentally ill. | :40:40. | :40:50. | |
To obey him only. To obey him only. I think it is a combination of how | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
cultures make sense for people. How stigma just prevents them from | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
recognises what it really is. Quite often, people see abnormal | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
behaviour as some how being caused by some bad influence, rather than | :41:06. | :41:16. | |
:41:16. | :41:17. | ||
a sign of mental illness. That badness, becomes an external | :41:17. | :41:23. | |
manevolenceA Black Magic by someone, a shadow, a Jin. It is this kind of | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
thinking that means courts are also having to grapple with the son | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
September of possession. -- concept of possession. This is | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
Nyla Muntess on her wedding day, watching her are her brother, just | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
over a month ago, the man she's marrying, along with his parents, | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
and his brother-in-law, were jailed for life for her murder. | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
The trial heard evidence that Nyla was killed as family members | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
attempted to drive out an evil spirit. Again, they said, she was | :41:58. | :42:08. | |
possessed by a Jin. TRANSLATION: The thinking behind | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
her in-laws was that they would basically have the body released, | :42:13. | :42:19. | |
get the body released, take it home to Pakistan, it would be very easy | :42:19. | :42:29. | |
to explain away anything by basically having that capture-all, | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
Jin did it. The called healer in the room it is thought when she was | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
murdered, was never traced. They provide a tough task for | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
prosecutors, under the radar. A few weeks ago, in another case in East | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
London, a religious healer, who beat a woman with a stick, has | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
never been found. There have been two high-profile court cases in | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
Birmingham and London. Both cases, the called healer not traced, | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
nowhere to be seen. Is that a failure? It is a back -- lack of | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
understanding of how these people operate. They operate in the | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
shadows. They are protected by others in their communities, faith | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
or places of worship. They may leave the country. So it is very | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
difficult to track down the "healer". Would you say this is an | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
increasing problem, a problem you are seeing more often? We are | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
becoming more aware of it. Whether it is increasing or not. I'm | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
pleased we have been talking to lots of community groups over the | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
last three or four years, who want to tackle it themselves. You make | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
him sick, all the way from Pakistan you came here. Nobody has accused | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
this man of any wrongdoing, and many have told me they have | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
benefited from his treatment. Although, he says, he can cure many | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
illnesses, he also told me he has had clients he has had to pass on | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
to doctors. We don't want to interfere with the job of doctors, | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
or mid-kal professionals. So everybody -- medical professionals. | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
So everybody does their job. you think some of the problems | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
people might think are psychological are to do with the | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
Jin? Could be psychological problem, but the one behind it is the Jin. | :44:13. | :44:19. | |
Because the Jin can play with us, can deceive us, the Jin can even | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
deceive doctors. You see there is a difficult line | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
there, that if someone believes in this they might not seek the right | :44:28. | :44:35. | |
help? If it is a fairy, how can I explain the, how can I explain the | :44:35. | :44:43. | |
things that I'm going through? Here in East London, the mental | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
Health Trust told me their services were established to serve a | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
community where religion was dying out. Now, most of their patients | :44:51. | :44:57. | |
value the spiritual as much as they do science. | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
It may be 2012, but this is an issue British institutions are | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
struggling with today. That report by Catrin Nye. | :45:07. | :45:17. | |
:45:17. | :45:40. | ||
That's it for tonight, Emily is here tomorrow, until then, good | :45:41. | :45:50. | |
:45:51. | :46:14. | ||
Good evening. We have seen flooding across south-west Scotland today. | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
There is more rain in the forecast for Tuesday. Moving relatively | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
quickly across Scotland, and by the afternoon, things looking a bit | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
dryer and brighter, for England and Wales, we are sticking with a lot | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
of cloud and rain for the afternoon. It is grey, it is quite dull and | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
damp across a good part of Yorkshire and the east Midland. We | :46:30. | :46:36. | |
will see temperatures in London at 13 degrees, we could see some rain | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
by 3.00pm. For south-west England, still a lot of cloud round here, | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
patchy rain with strong wind, especially round the coast. Still | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
cloudy skies across a good part of Wales, further outbreak of rain, | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
strong gale force wind at times. The wind still strong at this stage | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
for Northern Ireland, the heavyist of the rain has cleared through. We | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
will have an afternoon with some bright spells, and a similar story | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
for Scotland, strong winds out towards the North West corner, the | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
worst of the rain at this stage will have clear away. For Tuesday, | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
a slight mixed bag for Edinburgh by the afternoon. Sunny spells and | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
temperatures at 13. By Wednesday in the north mainly dry, fine and | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
bright. On Tuesday, sticking with the rain | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
throughout much of the day. Wednesday, overall, a bit of an | :47:24. | :47:28. |