22/11/2012 Newsnight

Europe is looking very disunited tonight over whether the EU budget

should be just over a trillion euros in the next seven years, or a

shade less. For specifically, David Cameron is the leader going out on

a limb, desperate to bring back a deal that will keep the country and

his party happy. Europe held hostage by Britain,

screams the papers, but here in Brussels, there appear signs they

are about to cough up the randsom. We have guest -- guests who love

the European Union and hate it. We will discuss.

Tonight the BBC chooses the man from the opera to conduct the

mission. Does the BBC's new leading man know what he's getting himself

into. REPORTER: Have you been able to offer Lord Hall any security of

tenure, some people it is getting like Chelsea around here!

Are church and state about to collide, should parliament force

the Church of England to have women bishops, we will talk to the

politician who is going to try. The world's largest cemetery in

Iraq, isn't short of patronss, living or dead, but does the great

sectarian divide between Shia and Sunni, threaten more trouble for

Iraq and the Middle East. Good evening. In the manner which makes

the European Union a by-word for bold, dynamic leadership, the

meetings in Brussels are already running four hours late, supper

will start at midnight, and a deal, if there is one, isn't expected

until well into the bleary dawn, and maybe another eurofudge will

come out of it. David Cameron is caught between the rock, built off

European leaders, most of whom want a budget increase, and the hard

place, the restless parliament who say they will only accept a cut.

Vasily Grossman disappeared into the long dark tunnel of Belgium. In

all the excitement about the Diamond Jubilee, we have, perhaps,

missed another important 60th anniversary, this year, we are

"celebrating", if that is the right word, six decades of eurosummits.

Much of it hasn't changed, more briefings, more waiting, and more

meetings. For journalists, the sheer mental effort of trying to

follow what on earth is going on. Still, at least this one is about

something everyone can understand, it is about money. Who pays and how

much. David Cameron is clear that a rise

in the EU's budget is totally unacceptable. No, I'm not happy at

all. These are very important negotiations, clearly at a time

when we are making difficult decisions at home over public

spending t would be quite wrong, it is quite wrong for proposal force

this increased extra spending in the EU. We are going to be

negotiating very hard for a good deal for Britain's tax-payers and

for Europe's tax-payers, and to keep the British rebate. Although

some other European countries, lick Germany and Netherlands, who are,

like us, net contributor, support calls for a cut, others do not.

TRANSLATION: It is a shame for the British Europe is primarily a

single market, for me, for Belgium, Europe is more about solidarity and

prosperity for all Europeans. So I will plead with some such as David

Cameron for a more ambition budget. Is this -- ambitious budget. Is

this possible? We will see, I hope other countries such as Italy and

France will support us in this ambitious budget.

Today is taken up with individual meetings, known in the EU jargon as

confessionals, where each country, starting this morning with the UK,

makes its case to the EU Commission and council.

One by one, the countries go in for their 15-minute budget pitch.

So what do we know about the position so far? The commission

initially proposed a 1,025 billion euro budget. The council President,

Herman Van Rompuy, yesterday amended it to 973 billion, Britain

wants a freeze, something like 825 billion. However, let's put those

numbers in perspective, if we compare the most anyone is asking

Britain to pay, with what David Cameron is saying he's prepared to

pay, it probably boils down to something like �00 million per year.

Easily affordable in terms of overall Government spending. No,

this is really about politics. David Cameron thinks the public

have had enough of Europe, and he as under pressure from his party to

draw a line. Under the council President's

proposal, 309 billion would be spent on cohesion, that includes

help for less developed regions of Europe. 5 billion would be spent on

outside relation -- 65 billion would be spent on outside relations,

including aid and help for countries who want to join. The

biggest single item in the proposed budget is agriculture and fisheries,

364 billion euros, more than a third of the entire budget.

In Britain, big beneficiaries of the budget are big landowners, who,

like the Queen, over the last decade she has received �7 million

of EU money. EU spending is an easy political target. A report

published today says 150,000 euros was spent on a research project for

the social relevance of coffee. 58,000 euros for a chilli pepper

festival, 196,000 euros for a onadm puppet axe cad me. The budget is

subject -- a nomad puppet academy. The budget is subject to a lot of

waste. A lot of money goes to landowners, irrespective of what

they do with the land, even if they are not in any meaningful economic

activity they still get support. Another huge chunk of the budget

goes to recycling cash between some of the richer member states, in

what is known as regional or structure funds, at a huge

administrationive and opportunity cost. So, no, the EU budget is not

good value for money. Part of the political positioning before a

summit like this, is to bang the table a bit, and threaten to use

the veto, David Cameron will know if he vetos an EU budget deal, not

only will it not turn off the tap of EU spending, actually Britain

could end up paying more. We are used to seeing pictures of

budget deadlock in the US, where Congress has the power to shut down

the Government. Teachers and civil servants get sacked and everything

closes. That is not what happens in Europe. Even if no budget deal is

reached. If there isn't a deal in time for this new seven-year

programme to come into effect. What they would do is simply roll over

the existing budgets. That would be based on next year's figures, that

is the end of the currenting budgeting figures, that would leave

a higher level of spending than is currently proposed with the

proposal on the table. The risk is you block a deal and end up paying

more under this rolling programme. And in the meantime we wait, like

countless others before, waiting for something to happen, quite what,

we don't know yet. But, this can't go on forever, can it? Perhaps

David could tell us that. What is the latest David? Well, the latest

is, Kirsty, in the last few minutes, they have started their working

dinner to negotiate their positions after that extensive day of

bilaterals, and Herman Van Rompuy began with a little joke. He said

thank goodness owe only have it once every - we only have this once

every seven years. Get this for symbolism, there is no din, they

are having cold cuts. Tonight I have to say the billing of this

summit, 26 against 1 David Cameron isolated. It doesn't feel like that

now. There is a lot of movement towards the British position,

particularly from the council President, Herman Van Rompuy.

Although the deal he proposed was rejected by David Cameron, it is a

lot closer to what David Cameron is after. The people looking more

isolated are the French. Normally going into a summit like this, the

French and germs will meet four or five days prior and they will agree

a common position. That hasn't happened now, Francois Hollande is

the guy with trouble if he goes back with this deal, because it

requires him to take a big cut on that Common Agricultural Policy, he

would be in great difficulties if he were to accept that. What

happens now? They will digest their cold cuts, they will also digest

what Herman Van Rompuy has to say. Most likely they will go back to

their hotels tonight, and come back tomorrow to continue negotiations.

They might go through the night, but probably they will come back

tomorrow. There is nothing else on the agenda for tomorrow. In the

meantime, I will leave you with another bit of symbolism. On the

screens behind me, just before you came to me, was a Public

Information message that seemed to have a bit of Thatcherite symbolism,

it said "a handbag has been found"! Not wielded yet.

In Berlin, Ralph Brinkhraus is a German MP in the CDU party, and

sits in the Bundestag Finance Committee. We're joined by Marta

Andreasen a UK Independence Party MEP, she was the first chief

accountant of the European Commission. John Peet is the Europe

editor of the Economist Magazine, and the Conservative MP, Mark

Reckless, tabled a rebel amendment last month, calling for the

Government to demand a real-terms cut in the EU budget.

Mark Reckless, you wanted a real- terms cut, I don't think you are

going to get it? There is a chance we will get it. There is not that

much difference between a freeze and a small cut. I think what

Europe is now understanding is the strength of feeling in the UK, and

our parliament has voted that there will be a cut, and we have to have

legislation to implement it. If there is not, then Europe could be

operating without a budget. Ralph Brinkhraus, this is all about

atmosphere, because countries all over the European Union are having

to slash their budgets, EU citizens are facing horrific austerity in

some countries, and yet, it just looks like the EU is going merrily

on and agreeing to increase its budget, perhaps? Yes, it is a very

difficult thing to communicate to the people within Europe. But there

are strong particular interests within the countries, so for

example in the peripherals, in the south of Europe, and even in the

east of Europe, people are talking about subsidies coming from the

European Union. We have the agriculture problem in France, and

we have this group consisting of Germany, UK and Swede and

Nethelands who want to freeze and - - Sweden and Netherlands who want

to freeze or cut the budget. If you are sitting in Greece, and facing

huge austerity, you don't think the European Union is doing anything

for you at all? Yes, I think the European Union is doing a lot for

Greece, and there are a lot of funds that Greece does participate

in. I guess it is the Government there has a strong interest in a

raise of the budget, and not in a cut or a freeze.

Why do you think, it may not be the case, David says tonight there

seems to be some kind of shift, all too often it looks like Britain

doesn't win the arguments? I think there are two reasons why Britain

doesn't win the arguments, the most important reason is they are not

very good at seeking allies. I'm afraid we have seen this before

with David Cameron,s had approach to most summits is to go into

summits threaten to go veelt toe things, if you threaten -- veto

things. If you threat an veto where you have to agree on things you

won't be very popular. Do you think it is because he's not very well

versed in Europe, he doesn't quite understand the communication

system? He's under pressure, frank lie, from people like Mark Reckless.

Is -- frankly, from people like Mark Reckless. His party is saying

please go in, and Boris Johnson is saying threaten to veto things. He

has a lot of pressure to go in and threaten to veto. In Brussels going

in to threaten to veto is not very good for a negotiation that

requires an answer at the end of the nigh.

Ultimately if David Cameron doesn't veto it, it may be parliament vetos.

The rest of the EU needs to understand that this country is fed

up to the back teeth of the EU paying all this money in, if they

want to us pay anything into it, they have to get with it and make

savings. Wielding the veto would be counter-productive in your view?

This has to be agreed unoonly by the states and the European

Parliament, everyone has a veto in this game. It is not necessarily

helpful to start threatening to wield a veto without negotiating.

People ask the question why are we part of a system where the budget

can only go up, and most people get the money out and it is us that are

paying. The difference is small. The budget is relatively small, the

difference between the two sides is relatively small. Heads of

Government wouldn't argue about this sum of money if they were

debating a budget at home. They should realise they are not arguing

about a huge amount of money It is about politics and saving face? R.

All we hear is great stories about waste in the EU, bizarre stories

about disappearing sheep and so forth. But these stories are all at

the margins, aren't they. In many ways, the waste is minimal? Kirsty,

the waste is very important, because this is tax-payers' money.

For the 18th year in a row, the auditors have refused to clear the

budget of the European Union, which means they cannot say that actually,

the money was given to the right people for the right purpose. This

is very serious, you know. This is tax-payers' money. We can't

continue to allow the European Commission to give the money out

without controlling how it is used. You know, Greece has received 60

billion euros in the last decade in structural funds, where has the 60

billion gone. Spain has received 130 billion euros in structural

funding, where have these funds gone? This is serious. Because now

we have a Europe in crisis and ten years ago, the Lisbon strategy was

supposed to make Europe the most evolved economy, state-of-the-art,

and there we are, in a deep crisis. Of course this waste, or fraud,

because there is fraud. It is very important to consider

that. Ralph Brinkhraus, Europe constantly talks about, they are

going to reform structures and strategy, and it is always for

another day, there is no actual real impetuous for reform? No, no.

There is an impetuous for reforms. What we have reached in the last

two or three years much, so, I guess, even in Greece, we have some

progress, and we have a lot of progress in Portugal, in Ireland,

but you have to keep in mind it is a system which consists out of

compromises. You have 27 partners at the table, and negotiating. So a

fast-moving progress in reforms is very difficult. But it needs to

reform the CAP. At one point we had Herman Van Rompuy talking about

Britain contributing to its own CAP agricultural rebate. That has been

withdrawn from the table now. People will see this as the most

extraordinary type of accounting? think that's the agriculture

question is a very special question. What we have to keep in mind s that

we have parts of Europe where people -- is we have parts of

Europe that depend on the culture sector. It is a completely

different situation to the UK and parts of Germany. So in organising

this big compromise, we have also to spend money for this agriculture

sector, unfortunately. We have to organise a decline, this will be

the task of the summit. Leaving the CAP aside, that is a very central

part of this. The bigger question is, at what point does Britain

decide the game's a bogey, perhaps it's time to leave? I think most

British people are in that position already. If you look at most of the

polls, ignoring the "don't knows", it is almost 2-1 who want to leave

the EU. Seeing what is happening with the budget, and the waste and

disgraceful overspending by the civil servants. One in six of whom

are paid, essentially, more than our Prime Minister, when you take

into account all their allowances, it can't go on. If there had been

proper reform, just seems like this unwieldy monster, that can't be

tamed. It has become even more so in the last ten years. If it isn't

tame tamed people will turn their backs on it? There is a lot of

disillusionment about the European Union, particularly in this country.

What they are talking about in Brussels doesn't address the main

question. David Cameron wants to defend the rebate, the French want

to defend agriculture, the Germans want to hold the whole budget down.

I think they have to have a more intelligent discussion about what

the budget is for and what it is spent on. It is not a growth-

promoting budget, they are not spending enough on research and

development. They shouldn't spend as much on ago culture, they need

to look at boosting growth in Europe, which they are not doing,

that would be a much more sensible use of time. Isn't the problem here,

many people are disillusioned with the European Union, in your view,

how damaging would it be to Europe, if Britain decided to call it a

day? It would be big damage. We really need Britain within the your

-- the European Union, we need, as Germans the UK on our side. We have

to organise a compromise. In organising a compromise, it is very

bad to have a red line at the beginning of the negotiations. What

we expect is that we get an open negotiation, and Angela Merkel will

do a lot to build a bridge for Britain, and for France, and for

the other countries, and I guess at the end of the day, unfortunately

not at the end of today, but of some days in the future, we will

have the compromise on the budget. The main question is not the budget,

main question is to reorganise the European Union, and for this

process, it would be a big damage if the UK leaves.

The outsider insider, that is the moniker conferred on the new

Director-General, Tony Hall, the cross-bench peer, credited with

getting the Royal Opera House back in tune. Tony Hall, the only

candidate for the job apparently, began as a news trainee 39 years

ago, did time as a Newsnight producer, and was a senior

executive when he left for cor vant garden. A "difficult few weeks", he

described the organisation's current travails, he said he wanted

to lead a world Class B BC. It's a new act in the drama at the

BBC. With Baron Patten of Barnes, introducing Baron Hall of Covent

Garden, Don Chris and Don Tony. has take an lot to drag me from

Covent Garden. It has been a tough few weeks for this organisation, I

know we can get through it by listening carefully and thinking

carefully about what we do next. I'm absolutely committed to our

news operation as an absolute world-beater. Nobody can do this on

their own. If you are going to run a creative organisation, you need a

team, I know that from my earliest days as a news trainee in this

organisation, through to my latter days running the BBC News, through

to now at the Royal Opera House. Tony Hall is billed as man who

knows his way around a BBC News room, even a brand new one like

this. But who also has experience at another high-profile institution,

the Royal Opera House. His admirers at the BBC say he's an outsider who

used to be an insider. Will Hall be able to stick around long enough

for a glorious swan song? REPORTER: Lord Patten, have you

been able to offer Lord Hall any security of tenure, some feel it is

getting like Chelsea round here? haven't seen myself in Anwar

Abramvich role, because my bank balance and his are very different,

not least. When you say it is getting like Chelsea round here,

how many managers of Chelsea in the Abramavich era, seven, eight, we

have had, unfortunately, two Director-Generals in the last nine

years. So, it is some way behind Chelsea. I hope that this boss will

win a few league titles and European competitions as well.

It is less than a fortnight since the BBC was saying a golden goodbye

to George Entwistle, after just 54 days in the top job.

A new crisis for Newsnight. He was criticised for his handling of a

crisis surrounding coverage of child abuse allegations by

Newsnight. As you might expect, there is no shortage of advice for

the new DG. Obviously he has to set about restoring trust and

confidence in the BBC. That particularly applies to the BBC's

news output and its current affairs. Already some steps have been taken

to more clearly define the responsibilities, and to put in

place the editorial safeguards, that is going to be a long process,

and Tony Hall, having run the news division, does have the experience

perhaps to do that. So what's the score with the new

DG? Born in Birkenhead, Tony Hall joined the BBC as a trainee almost

40 years a he later launched Radio Five Live, the BBC News channel,

and BBC Online. In 199 he applied for the top job but lost out to

Greg Dyke, two years later he became chief executive at the Royal

Opera House, where he's credited with opening up the art form to a

wider audience. When the DG job came up again last year, Hall

reportedly said he was too old, make that "experience", a year now

he's the top man. If you are thinking the Opera House sounds

like a cushy berth, you would be dead wrong, according to our man in

the stalls. It could be far from luvvie duvvey back stage. One saw a

tranquillisation at the Royal Opera House, externally it was less

interesting because internally people were working together. His

great gift is to get people around the table and remind them they are

a team. If they work together they will achieve more. So it's back to

the future for the BBC and the long-serving Hall, in the middle

here. Major challenges await. biggest question marks there will

be over the level at which the license fee will be set. Whether it

is at the current rate, by delivers �3.6 billion a year, and the other

big question will be over the governance of the BBC. Whether you

really do need a Trust and a chairman, on the one hand, who are

apparently the regulator, although it is not utterly clear if they are

also the cheerleader. Whether you also then want an executive board,

with non-executive boards that sits with the Director-General. Are you

staying awake for this, this is positively Baroque this system.

Part of the battle in the performing arts is know your lines

and don't trip over the furniture. It is a useful lesson that Tony

Hall brings from Covent Garden to the upper reaches of the BBC.

Our political editor is here. What's the Tony Hall effect in

Downing Street? Peace has broken out, across Downing Street, but

also the Labour Party. They are quite happy. Some people are

concerned at the alarcity of the appointment, but some are saying,

get a life. That is the media story, but the Government is much less

anxious about what is happening? The story that is racking the best

minds in Britain, is how you respond to what we now know is the

imminent publication of the Levin report, which is Lord Justice

Leveson's inquiry into media standards in this country. David

Cameron has sight of it, he knows what where it will end up. He's

going up and down the land talking to newspaper editors looking at

room for manoeuvre. It is tiny. On the one hand you have the Liberal

Democrats and the victims of phone hacking and the Labour Party. And

MPs who think it is time to underpin the regulation of the

press in law. On the other hand you have incredibly muscular press

barons, you have both the Prime Minister's closest allies, Michael

Gove, and his closest rival, Boris Johnson, who in the last 24 hours

have left David Cameron in no uncertain terms about where they

want him to end up, it is a small amount of room for manoeuvre. A few

things to leave the viewers with. I don't think it is at all-clear cut,

inside Downing Street even over what they will do. The first thing,

if it comes to a vote whether they would necessarily lose if David

Cameron said I can't that far, I can't put any legal status to this.

There will be some Labour people who will fall away from Ed

Miliband's leadership and say I'm uncomfortable with that as well. If

he did lose in the Commons, how would it be reported when you have

many in the press who will say this is massive leadership from David

Cameron, rather than a big defeat from him. The last thing is, Lord

Leveson has always said, Lord Justice Leveson has always said he

doesn't want his report to be another door stop, he doesn't want

it to be another irrelevant inquiry, so it isn't beyond the realms of

possibility that he comes forward with something that David Cameron

can actually implement. The next Archbishop of Canterbury,

Justin Welby, is apparently a skilled conflict negotiator. So,

when he said today he was confident the Church of England will

concecrate a female bishop, was this an opening gambit for fresh

debate within the Church of England, or was he referring to the move by

MPs to force change on the grounds of sex discrimination. He was

speaking on a visit to Nigeria, to promote religious reconciliation,

while at home, parliament was being called to arms.

Lord hear us. Lord graciously hear us. The decision of the Church of

England has become a debate far beyond the church's walls. There is

now the very really prospect of Tuesday's vote souring the

relationship between church and state. The Labour MP, Frank Field,

is determined that the church be striped of its exemption from sex

discrimination laws, an exemption in the Eqality Act designed to stop

causing offence on the grounds of gender or belief. That would

prevent women from becoming bishops. There are signs the Government is

losing patience with the church. I'm making it clear this is not an

issue that can be parked, it is not an issue that the Church of England

can now ignore for the next two or three years, hope it will go away

until after the next General Synod elections, it has to be resolved as

soon as possible. With us from Liverpool is Frank Field who

introduced a bill to end the Church of England's exemption from

equality law, a member of the House of layity, who voted on this week's

-- House of layy, who voted on this week's proposal on women bishops.

Tonight it is the cultural and political terms we are talking

about. Why is this any of your business as an MP? We are talking

about a church that has been created on the side of the state,

and it wants to make sure the church doesn't behave in an absurd

manner. Most people will think its actions over the last few days show

a real lack of politics in the church. Why did the reformers fail.

They have some serious questions to answer here. To satisfy those who

were upset and disquieted by the proposal for reform. Let me put

this to my other guest. An absurd manner, do you think MPs have a

place in this. Afterall the Church of England is the established

church there are bishops who sit and make contributions to laws in

the House of Lords? It is the established church, that is true.

But I think it is really important, isn't it, that the church and the

state, reremember they are two different things. It is the

established church, not a state church. It is important that the

church is able to make its own laws. So, you believe that Frank Field

has absolutely no locus in this debate about women bishops? It is

important we listen to society, but our God is not parliament. Frank

Field. Do you believe this is a special case, as it were, because

the Church of England is established church. Afterall, if

you were going to make exemptions, presumably other religions would be

involved too, once you start to unpick these exemptions, where do

you stop? Well, British politics is never like that, and normally you

just give a push here and pull there. I agree with Lucy's last

comment, that God is not parliament. Nevertheless, the church has

certain public functions to carry out. If we look at the, you build

this with the new Archbishop of Canterbury. At the moment we choose

from half the population in choosing an Archbishop of

Canterbury. They were so stacked with talent this time round, that

one of the bishops, who had hardly got his robes on, as a bishop, was

actually chosen to fulfil that post. So it would suggest, wouldn't it,

that events are trying to teach us a lesson here. That it might well

be well over time before we actually look to the talents of the

other half of the population, when it comes to a leadership role. The

crucial question is not bishops or this that or the other, the crucial

question was decided decades ago, when the church decided there was

no theological objection to concecrating women as priests, that

is the key function in the church. Other people may have other

responsibilities, such as being Archdeacons or being bishops or

Archbishops, the argument that there is something wrong with women

taking these roles was decided by the church a long time ago.

The argument there is something wrong with women taking the roles

of Bishop, puts you out of step with, it seems to me, a lot of

opinion outside the church in this country, that you have set

yourselves apart, and that will give you a fundamental problem,

won't it, in recruiting more women for the church? It is interesting

what we just heard. It is true, that back in 1975, General Synod

did vote. But at that point 40%. it hasn't gone first? 40% House of

Laity voted against that then. We have a similar proportion of the

House of Laity saying the same thing now, it is theological

conviction. This perhaps is not about theological convictions, what

will happen now, if there was a vote, Frank Field brings a bill in,

and there is a vote to remove that exemption from you, and you are

absolutely forced to have women bishops, what would happen to the

church? It would be very, very sad. I think it would be the end of

religious freedom in this country, in that sense. We would be starting

to say that what we protect very, very clearly within the equalities

act, in fact, that religious freedom is very important, we would

be some how overruling that. Frank Field, we don't have long, are we

on the way to disestablishment? at all, the real, I think, the real

issue, Lucy is the reformers were ungracious and ungenerous in

meeting the objections that many in your position actually hold. My

advice to them, which was ignored such as it was, was that the

crucial thing to establish is the principle of women bishops, whether

they are curtailed in certain ways, that doesn't really matter. One

should actually stuff the teeth of the, the mouths of the opposition

with gold, to actually get the major reform through. They failed

to do that. I think now the church must very quickly reconvene on this

issue, listen very carefully to those that it failed to persuade,

and meet them in those objections, and get the general principle

established. I think that could be done very quickly. Do you think it

can be done? I think that is absolutely right. We are in

complete agreement here. Nobody voted against women bishops at the

beginning of this week, everyone voted against a particular measure.

Next March is ten years since the invasion of Iraq. Since then the

country has experienced occupation and years of sectarian violence.

The Prime Minister is now a Shia Muslim, after decades of Saddam

Hussein's ba'athist party rule of minority Sunnis. The tension

between the two groups has not gone away. We have been to Iraq to test

attitudes in both communities, to other Middle East conflicts

characterised by sectarian division, like Syria, and to report on life

itself in Iraq. An unlikely love story, and an

unlikely romantic hero. TRANSLATION: I used to drive a cab,

I saw her, I drive her to work and home. I felt I had to speak to her.

Day after day, I tell her I loved her.

At the height of Iraq's civil war, Hassan and Sara defied the world

around them to be together. TRANSLATION: Shia, Sunni, whatever,

I want this girl, they said she was not my kind, she is Shia. I said,

no, either her or no-one. TRANSLATION: One of my sisters

called me and said if you don't leave him I won't speak to you, and

my husband will leave me, do you accept my children and I will be

thrown out of our home. We stayed in the car just crying.

Harder times lay ahead, after Sara lost her leg in a bombing two years

ago. But still.

Tran # We have a crazy love # We have a crazy love

In a way, the story of Hassan and Sara is snot just a triumph of love

over hate. But of ordinary people against powerful forces around them.

A great sectarian divide is taking root in the region. More than ever

before, it is affecting the behaviour of states, and the way

people think. Most dangerously it looks more and more like a zero sum

game, where one side's gain is the other side's loss.

This is Fallujah. It is saw some of the worst fighting during the war,

and the scars are still visible. It is still unstable, and many here

don't feel part of the new Iraq. Curious to see a TV crew, this man

asks me what we are doing here. Exploring Iraq's sectarian division,

I explain. He assures me it is all gone, no more trouble.

If only it were that simple. A lot of trouble seems to be lurking just

around the corner. Abu Ahmed is in the free Iraqi army,

formed to support the Free Syrian Army.

TRANSLATION: We share the same goal, to Shi'ite expansion in the region,

to promote it, we support our brothers in certain ways, weapons

and fighters. Just like others support the regime.

It is in Iraq that he has got scores to settle.

TRANSLATION: After the fall of Sayyed Sadr al-Din al-Qu, Iraq will

have its turn, today Sadik, tomorrow Nouri al-Maliki, soon God

welling, with with the grace of God, they will fall too.

If his vision is to come true, it is young men like these who might

have to act it out. In history class, these boys learn about

struggles to control Iraq, four centuries ago.

But in the playground, they just want to have some fun. They were

happy to welcome an outsider. To them, there are more important

divisions than Sunni and Shia. Barcelona. Barca. Hello, Barca? But

they do feel stuck. They only play here in school, and because of the

security situation don't often meet kids from other parts of the

country. They are not the only ones who feel trapped. Time has taken

its told toll on Abu, since the days he was an officer in the

former Iraqi army. He has been kept out of work, as the Government

sought a clean break with the former regime.

TRANSLATION: When you throw me away with all my service to Iraq, and

never ask me to come back, or give me my rights, what do you expect?

That I will accept? The people who built Iraq, overnight, just gone

with the wind, left to beg, we do not beg we are Iraqis with our

heads held high. So many like him were shut out as the new Iraq

emerge the. But others, long oppressed -- emerged. But others,

long oppressed under ba'athist rule, finally found their place. Across

Iraq there is a sense of resurgence in Shia pride. Nowhere more so than

here in Najaf. Shia clerics look down on you from everywhere, the

colours on full display. Suppressed under Saddam, this place brims with

new-found confidence. The whole city centres around this, the Imam

Ali Shrine, one of the holyist places for Shia Muslims, drawing

millions of visitors every year. TRANSLATION: It gave me gooz bumps,

a rush of faith and had you mality, like entering one of the gates of

heaven. Here Shia show their devotion to

Iman Ali, they believe he should have succeeded the prophet. The

battle was at the heart of the Sunni Shia divide. Today the

fateful look to the clerics for guidance about everything, that

gives them a lot of influence. Saddam Hussein feared their power

so much that he killed many of them. Now they are on the rise again. And

they say it is not a problem. TRANSLATION: Everyone, Christians,

Sunni, Shia, won't turn away the cleric leadership because it is

above sectarian, the fears are from other practices that could be

called sectarian. The clerics in Iran practice leadership in one way,

here in Iraq it cannot be the same. Whether or not that calms Sunni

fears, out on the streets, Shia fears are simmering too. People

hesitate to talk about Iraq's sectarian divide. But they are all

fired up about Syria. TRANSLATION: It is a Wahaby war against Shia

holy places, this mantles me. TRANSLATION: I will go fight in

Syria, this man says, because it is the Shia who are the targets.

This isn't just the magnet for the living, but also for the dead. This

is the world's largest cemetery. Everyone wants to be buried here in

holy soil. For a place of death, it strikes me

how full of life it is. This doesn't stop, night and day, every

day. The visitors keep coming to bury their dead, and to visit the

family dead, from all over the Islamic world, and sometimes beyond,

and this huge cemetery keeps on expanding, in all directions.

Business is booming for the flower sellers, the motorcycle taxies, and,

of course, the undertakers. Abu Saif has been burying people here

most of his life. At the height of Iraq's civil war, he would bury

hundreds a day. That's over in Iraq, he said, but a

nasty wind is blowing from Syria. Lately, he's received bodies from

across the border. TRANSLATION: It is my hope this

phenomenon will disappear, it divides people T has nothing to do

with Islam. I can only recite the word of Iman Ali, "people are

either your brothers in religion or your equal in creation".

First Iraq, now Syria. Who you are can still get you killed. The grief,

too often, only gives way to scavengence.

-- scavengence. Vengence. There are places where

none of this matters. Here you can't tell who is Sunni or Shia, it

is just Iraqis out for some fun. It may be a bit crowded for Sara and

Hassan, they prefer their own little spot bit river.

-- by the river. TRANSLATION: Iraqis, when we love, if the other

person is sincere, we sacrifice for them. Hassan sacrificed, Sara

sacrificed, thank God we are unshakeable, nothing can drive us

apart. Sectarian war is looming again. It

feeds on hatred and division. It tears people apart. Hope comes in

the bonds that hold together, and in those who choose a different

path. Tomorrow morning's front pages, we

That's just about all we have time for tonight. Tonight is

thanksgiving in America, which appropriately enough was started by

early settlers, who were unhappy with the decisions of the Church of

With that, I think we are going to There is still some atrocious

weather out and about across England and Wales, heavy showers

following behind the flood line number.

Even after the rain ease, the rain will filter into the river systems.

Some very nasty weather to come. Soggy across the south-east first

thing in the morning as well. But, for many much dryer, the winds will

have eased significant loo, after pretty wet and windy nights across

the south-east. It will take a while for that rain to drag its

heels, behind it there are showers around, it is not all together dry.

But it will be a lot dryer than it has been today across the south

west of England, across the Midland, Wales and northern England. It will

be a pestering of showers, particularly across the likes of

Northern Ireland, there could be some hail, thunder there, across

the Scottish Highlands some snow as well. A keen breeze, again dryer,

than it has been through the day today. Especially where those areas

are flooded. Do keep tuned to the forecast if you are at all

concerned. Still some atro sure weather out. It is only a brief --

atrocious weather around. It is only a brief dry spell, it is more

again on the weekend. Raint on Sunday, or Saturday night, more

very wet and windy weather is due across the southern half of the