Browse content similar to 23/11/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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As Lord Leveson is about to deliver his verdict on the state of the | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
press, senior politicians, campaign groups and celebrities are piling | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
on the pressure to get their way. What about the powerless? If you | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
are not part of the establishment, will Lord Leveson still be on your | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
side? The father of a 7/7 victim caught | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
up in hacking, thinks not. You can see it is all part of the old boy | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
network and the same establishment. I haven't seen any part of the | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
Leveson Inquiry to which I can feel, as a member of the public, | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
affiliated with. The charge is eliteism, is it true? | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
Brussels tonight, full of sound and fury, but signifying no change at | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
all. Who is there to stand up for the taxpayer, who is to say, | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
where's the money going to come from, who will pay for this? Anger | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
in Egypt, as their newly-elected President make as power grab, is he | :01:02. | :01:12. | |
:01:12. | :01:13. | ||
is securing democracy or destroying Good evening, when David Cameron | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
announced the Leveson Inquiry, he said it would look into not only | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
how newspapers are regulated, but also at the relationships between | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
politicians and the press. Has the intervening 12 months revealed more | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
about Britain's power elites than could ever have been imagined. Who | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
knew, for instance, that the Prime Minister and Rebekah Brooks had | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
such a close relationship. Are the fault lines developing over | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
statutory regulation, in the best interests of celebrities or every | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
day folks. First tonight, we hare the testimony of the father of one | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
of those who died in the London someings, and himself a suspected | :01:46. | :01:55. | |
victim of phone hacking. David Foulkes was 24 years old when | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
he was killed on the 7th July, in Edgware Road, it was his first time | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
in London on his own. My wife came home, we spent the next 36, 48 | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
hours trying to get some kind of answer. We got no response, nobody | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
knew what was going on, we couldn't get touch with David, we had mobile | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
phones, two landlines at home, David had two phones, we tried | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
every number and combination of numbers and we called for | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
everything and got nowhere. would be six days before David's | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
parents finally learned he was dead. It would be six more years before | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
they discovered from the police that their phones might have been | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
hacked by the News of the World. was a senior police officer and he | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
started discussing with me Operation Weeting, it meant to go | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
to me, I asked him when did he know that my private details were in the | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
possession of News International. He said, for some years now. He had | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
only contacted me, and other members, simply because it was | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
about to be put in the public domain in the Daily Telegraph, I | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
think it was, the next day. When Brian Leveson was first appointed | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
to lead the hacking inquiry, there was hope that the inquiry would be | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
about the damage done to ordinary families. Despite the 100 witnesses | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
from many organisations, the inquiry hasn't turned out how he | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
has wanted. I thought for once something to do with the public | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
would be addressed. There was some interest in the 7/7 people again, I | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
didn't want to get involved with that. And yet the families of the | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
victims were the ones that one of the biggest grievances? Exactly. I | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
feel quite upset that an important piece of work for ordinary people, | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
for ordinary members of the public, was railroaded by the celebrity | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
circus. And also, it became apparent, very quickly, that the | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
politicians would quite like to get a grip on the media as well, and | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
the politicians are clearly using Leveson as a vehicle to get their | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
own way. But what about the Government, speaking to the | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
Government about what happened? Only ten days or so ago, it was | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
reported in the press, that Maria Miller, the minister, DCMS, had | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
face-to-face meetings with Hugh Grant, and the press reported she | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
was minded to go along with much of his thoughts and suggestions. I e- | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
mailed Maria Miller, explaining who I was, and my points of view, and I | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
didn't even get a reply from the minister. I got a reply from one of | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
her aides, saying it would be inappropriate for a minister to | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
comment as the report had not yet been publicised. Which, I just | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
think illustrated my point precisely. That the Leveson Inquiry | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
has been hijacked, if you are rich and famous and a celebrity, you | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
have immediate access to ministers, but if you are an ordinary member | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
of the public, a ministerial aide sends you an e-mail. | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
What do you want to come out of the Leveson Inquiry. You seem to be | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
suggesting that you think it is a stitch-up for politicians to put | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
their dabs on the media? I think stitch-up might be a bit strong. | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
But certainly they have seen it as an opportunity to maybe get hold of | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
the media and try to shape it in a way that suits them. That would be | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
a dreadful outcome. That would be like going back to Stalinism, and | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
China and North Korea. The great strength of this country is we do | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
have a free press. We have in place, currently, enough laws to deal with | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
the activities we are talking about. We don't need any more legislation. | :05:42. | :05:50. | |
We just need a regulation, or a body that is able to control when | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
they cross the line, from a morality point of view. Do you | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
think that the way that Leveson has been conducted, and your experience | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
of Leveson, tells you anything about the establishment? Well, I | :06:01. | :06:09. | |
think that the establishment have quickly taken control of Leveson. | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
If you look at the team that are supporting Leveson, you can see, | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
that it's all part of the same old boy network, and the name | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
establishment. I have not seen any part of the Leveson Inquiry to | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
which I can feel, as a member of the public, affiliated with, and | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
think that's to help me, as a member of the public, that is to | :06:31. | :06:38. | |
help me. All I have seen is various lobby groups take over the Leveson | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
Inquiry. Trying to shape it to suit them. If you were to be sitting in | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
front of Brian Leveson right now, what would you say to him? I would | :06:47. | :06:54. | |
be saying to him that I hope he has not been derailed. That he has been | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
able to cut through all the smoke screen and keep the inquiry on | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
track. I would like to think that he would recommend a course of | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
action that is the right and proper thing to do. Which avoids | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
parliament, in any way, taking over or having control of the media. | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
Thank you very much indeed. I'm joined now by Simon Jenkins, | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
columnist for the Guardian, and two people who have had their phones | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
hacked, the publicist, Max Clifford and Joan Smith. | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
Do you recognise Graham Foulkes's characterisation of Leveson as | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
being hijacked by celebrity? didn't need to be hijacked, he was | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
obsessed with celebrity. I don't think it is fair to imply, | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
therefore, he's going to give an establishment stitch-up, it was an | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
ill-judged commission of inquiry, it was way over the top. The whole | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
reference to phone hacking, in your own report, this is a crime. | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
Leveson is not looking into that crime. He's not got any remit to | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
look into the crime, maybe on a future date. This was a crime that | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
has been committed and being dealt with by the police. The Leveson | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
Inquiry is about the ethics of the press, that is a different matter. | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
The ethic of the press, as Graham was saying, he wants some new body | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
to govern the ethic of the press. You he couldn't say what it was, I | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
don't know what it is going to be. I'm doubtful this characterising | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
Leveson as an establishment stitch- up is the correct way to do it. | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
Before we talk about establishment, does he have a point, from where he | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
sits, it has been dominated by celebrities who have had their | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
phones hacked, and in a sense that the media itself latches on to that, | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
and that is what it has been characterised by? I'm not wealthy | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
or a celebrity, in the last week I have met David Cameron, Ed Miliband | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
and Nick Clegg, to discuss phone hacking, and all of that. And the | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
people. You are a columnist for a national newspaper, you have | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
profile? The rest of the people in the room for me were people whose | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
relatives had disappeared or murdered, you might have recognised | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
their names, not because they are celebrities, but they are people | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
who terrible things have happened to. What were you talking about in | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
the room? We were talking about, what we as victims of phone hacking, | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
would like to see come out of the Leveson Inquiry, and seeking | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
assurances from all three party leaders that they were still | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
committed to the Leveson process. It is interesting that you didn't | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
think that meeting with Leveson would have been a good idea. Maybe | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
that is simply not allowed? For the victims? To put your point of view | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
at this stage in the inquiry? of us have already given evidence. | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
I gave evidence on the first day of the inquiry, when it was taking | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
evidence. I must say, that having been involved in the whole thing | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
for a year as a core participant victim, I have met far, far more | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
people who were ordinary members of the public who had terrible things | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
happen to them than I have celebrities. What I think happens | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
is when news organisations ring up the victims' organisations they ask | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
for Hugh Grant, that may skew the impression of what the victims' | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
organisation is. This is very much Graham Foulkes's own experience | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
with it, do you have sympathy with how he views Leveson? I think the | :10:16. | :10:22. | |
most important thing, as far as I'm concerned, is hopefully the public | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
will get better protection. Stars, the rich and famous, have tonnes of | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
protection. I know, because in many ways I'm part of it, and have been | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
for 50 years. The rich and famous are well looked after, they have | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
got expensive lawyers and PR people, often giving them more protection | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
than they deserve. Ordinary members of the public don't have. And | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
that's one thing I hope will come out of the Leveson Inquiry. We must | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
have a free press, but you must have members of the public | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
protected when their privacy is being invaded, with no | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
justification. Do you think it does show, not necessarily that the | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
prevalence of an establishment, but a number of elites. For example, | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
you would hope that the newspapers would hold politicians to account, | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
but you feel that, in a sense, newspapers have been so embroiled | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
in this, that they don't have an independence from politicians? | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
think it is wrong to frame this as an attack on freem do of the press. | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
What it is, it is an exposure of abuse of power. I don't he see how | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
newspapers, and editors, can hold politicians to account if we are | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
meeting. I have no problem with them being lobbied by editors, and | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
public meetings that are publicly recorded. What Leveson has exposed | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
is a level of private meetings, subterranean contact, that the rest | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
of us didn't know about. That is very worrying. There is a very | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
narrow group, between the newspaper press, the broadcasters, the | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
politicians, they go round in a merry-go-round? What is interesting | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
about Leveson, he has revealed some of the things that go on. That is | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
interesting. Every now and then it is interesting to have a great | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
turning over of stones and you see all the little bugs running around | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
underneath the stones. That has been significant, and interesting, | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
it is important you do that. Whether at the end of the day you | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
can invent some new system that prevents that happening, or reveals | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
it to the public or makes a difference, I very much doubt. | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
someone, like people whose families were the victims of 7/7, and they | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
look at where the power lies, it would be fair to say that the power | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
lies often between the press and the politicians, and even the | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
judiciary. That is the narrow area in Britain where power resides? | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
reality of it is, of course, it is not just politicians who have a | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
close relationship, because they need to, with Fleet Street, so do | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
the proprietors of newspapers have a close relationship with the press, | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
and politicians, because they all want to have maximum influence. | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
It's just a question of trying to make it as open as possible so we | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
can all see and hear what is going Going back to the point that Graham | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
was making. I think there is a real question about how what might be | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
called "ordinary people", famous for a day, might get some redress | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
when they feel hard done by. The Press Complaints Commission was set | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
up to do that. In those cases the press complaints commission hasn't | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
done a bad job. The crime is a different matter. But redress is | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
there, it needs to be tightened up and tweaked, but it is feasible. | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
Here you have an all-singing, all- dancing inquiry that takes a year. | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
You have Lord Leveson who doesn't want the report to Laing qirb on | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
the shelf. He presents his report to parliament, and the politicians, | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
who are implicated, make the decision. You describe the real | :13:44. | :13:51. | |
world. The point is, he may, he may say that actually we should have | :13:51. | :13:58. | |
some, what Joan wants, satry? don't want that, I want -- | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
statutory? I don't want that I want independent. But he has a whole | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
pile of people saying they don't want that? Would I rather the Prime | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
Minister and the cabinet take a decision than a judge. I would | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
rather the Prime Minister and the cabinet. What is the point of the | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
inquiry, there will be a second judgment? To reveal things, conduct | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
a public debate, which is done. To turn over stones. Judges shouldn't | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
make law. You say to turn over stones, if those stones are going | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
to be turned back again, what is the point? That is why I don't | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
think this is going top had a. I don't think that Lord Justice | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
Leveson wants to be another Calcott. The last commission to the press? | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
That was 20 years ago and Simon was part of that. All we have had for | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
the last 20 years self-regulation. The question is not self-or state | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
regulation, it is independent -- self-or-state regulation, it is | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
independent regulation. You have to have a strong press complaints body | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
that is prepared to stand up for ordinary people. Ordinary people | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
know of its existence and they will help them. That hasn't happened in | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
the past. Unlike some, I think the press complaints commission has | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
been dreadful for ordinary people, for the last 20, 30 years, so many | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
people have come to me, as well as other people, and saying the press | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
complaints don't want to know. Many, many people, and they weren't | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
interested. At the moment do you think Brian Leveson will be feeling | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
the pressure? He's a tough guy. He's run that inquiry as he wanted | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
to run it. I think he became star struck by it. That in itself was | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
quite useful, it has raised the profile of it all. If you ask me at | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
the end of the day if there will be a lot of difference, I don't think | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
there is. The thing is to meet the point to ensure you have a | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
plausible regime, that people have faith in. They won't have faith in | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
it if the press run it themselves. That is the problem. Jo all wait | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
through it has been about power -- All the way through it has been | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
about power, it is how you give power to ordinary people. And | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
Leveson wants to make sure there is an independent regulator where the | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
editors aren't judging themselves and others, and a statutory | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
backdrop so nobody can opt out of the situation. What is interesting, | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
is as soon as he brings his report out, he's going to Australia, where | :16:14. | :16:21. | |
the media is totally controlled by Rupert Murdoch! Maybe it was | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
indigestion eating a meal of cold cut late at night, or too much rich | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
Belgian chocolate. 27 European leaders, in the end, agreed to | :16:31. | :16:38. | |
nothing. The EU budget is running out with a 2% added on at the table. | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
There is a raft of other EU- designed policies coming down the | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
track, most greeted like a cup of warm sick by David Cameron and his | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
Conservative colleagues. So is this only the beginning of saying no to | :16:50. | :17:00. | |
:17:00. | :17:07. | ||
Europe? Vasily Grossman witnessed If only it were as simple as | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
tossing a few coins in a hat, they could agree the EU budget and be | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
home in time for tea. This is not just a battle about cash. It is | :17:15. | :17:22. | |
also about political capital. We're not going to be tough on | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
budgets at home, just to come here and sign up to big increases in | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
European spending. From a budget of nearly a trillion euros, it is | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
simplely not acceptable to carry on tinkering around the edges, | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
shuffling chunks of money from one part of the budget to another, we | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
need to cut unaffordable spending. That is what is happening at home, | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
and it needs to happen here. This is more than just a row about the | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
budget, it should be seen as part of a wider conflict between | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
competing visions for how the EU should evolve. If you want a | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
concrete example of how the EU institutions themselves think they | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
should go, you only have to travel next door from the summit venue. | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
A short walk away is evidence that far from being an institution in | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
retreat, the EU wants to do more, it wants a deeper, comprehensive | :18:13. | :18:20. | |
union. It's called the Europa Building, | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
and it is costing over a billion euros with its central pod-like | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
thing. When it is finished it will be the home of the European Council, | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
and Herman Van Rompuy. The question is, how much will Britain be | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
involved in what goes on there? whole idea of not to have the a la | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
carte, not to do the "cherrypick"ing, and take what you | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
like and don't contribute to the rest of it. It is like being a | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
member of any club, you take the week with the sour. It increasingly | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
looks like "cherrypick"ing. does that go down here? Not very | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
well. The UK has signalled it intends to exercise its opt-out | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
from 140 justice and home affairs measures, and renegotiate back into | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
the ones it wants to be part of. We have also signalled very strongly | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
we want nothing to do with and would veto any attempts to | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
introduce banking and financial regulation that were against | :19:13. | :19:21. | |
Britain's interests. This is one way of relieving the | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
frustration of a summit like this, there is plenty of frustration | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
among EU partner, some of whom are taking aim at what they regard as | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
Britain's aggressively negative attitude. I think it is a very bad | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
thing that there should be a second-class membership of Great | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
Britain. The interest of Britain and the interest of the British | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
citizens and companies lies on the continent. A second-class | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
membership, something inbetween Norway and Turkey seems to me a | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
very bad move. Practically is it possible, with matters like | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
justice? It is already prakically a little bit the case. Britain is not | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
a member of Schengen, or the euro. So the summit briefing go on, | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
frankly Britain isn't the biggest problem the EU is facing right now. | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
That honour, of course, belongs to the euro crisis, that is by no | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
means over. The measures that the 17 eurozone countries will be | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
forced into taking will inevitably lead to further political, fiscal | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
and economic integration, and Britain, will inevitably be, | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
included from that. The trouble is this, we may opt out of parts of | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
Europe, and yet what is clear is that the 17 eurozone countries are | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
moving on to a deeper political union, of that there is no doubt. | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
There will be meetings going on in the eurozone that make laws and | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
rules that affect the single market, of which we are a member, and yet | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
we are not even allowed in the room. We are becoming the Cinderella | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
state, asked to do the skivvy, and not invited to the grand dinner and | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
decide important things for British commerce. Not the postcard David | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
Cameron is going to be sending home. There are forces on both sides of | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
the channel pushing and pulling Britain away from a central role in | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
the EU It is for the politicians to decide how much to assist or resist | :21:13. | :21:22. | |
those forces. They call him a temporary dictator, | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
the new Pharaoh, President Morsi, the west point man for democracy in | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
the Arab world, no sooner had delivered a truce between Gaza and | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
Israel, he brazenly issued constitutional decrees banning any | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
opposition to his decisions, protests were soon to follow. Is | :21:39. | :21:49. | |
:21:49. | :21:49. | ||
this truly temporary, or is Israel sliding into another dictatorship. | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
Popular fury, that we first saw in last year's uprising, repeated now | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
in post revolutionary Egypt. Today offices of President Morsi's Muslim | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
Brotherhood were ransacked, just as the offices of their historic enemy, | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
Hosni Mubarak's party, were ransacked two years ago. Crowds in | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
Cairo's Tahrir Square accused Morsi, who won a democratic election, of | :22:14. | :22:21. | |
becoming the new Mubarak. One of Egypt's best-known | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
politician, Nobel Peace Prize winner, Mohammed Al-Baradi, called | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
him the new Pharaoh. They are enraged by his new rules, that his | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
decisions can't be overruled by the courts. For many of the liberal, | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
who sparked the uprising here, is proof, they believe, of a plan by | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
religious forces to hijack a revolution that wasn't originally | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
their's. The previously cautious Morsi, has been emboldened, perhaps, | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
bit international prestige he has just won, for brokering the Gaza- | :22:55. | :23:02. | |
Israel ceasefire. When he addressed a rally in Cairo today he insisted | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
his powers were only temporary. TRANSLATION: I would like to see a | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
genuine opposition, and strong opposition. I am the guarantor of | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
that. I will protect my brothers in the opposition, all their rights so | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
they can exercise their role as it should be. | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
Morsi's supporters argue that the judiciaries is still full of | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
Mubarak-era apppointees, even liberals approve his decree for a | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
retrial of those convicted of killings in last year's uprising. | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
But his bid for more power will only further polarise a society | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
ever more deeply split between those for and against religious | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
rule. Egypt's likely to become more unstable in the seven months that | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
will now pass with no clear democratic checks and balances. | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
Until a new parliament's elected under a new constitution, at the | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
very earliest, next summer. With us from Cairo is a researcher | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
for Human Rights Watch, and in Birmingham, is a spokesman for | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
President Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood movement. | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
First of all, how long do you think has President Morsi been planning | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
this, it wasn't a quick decision after the Gaza truce, was it? | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
don't think it is a quick decision. We all agree that when we are | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
dealing with exceptional moments we need exception decisions. He | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
usually tried to go straight forward. It does seem even that if | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
we are able to consider everything legal, the revolution itself was | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
illegal, because Mubarak was elected President. But he tried to | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
achieve what he has promised his people, this is the time to do that. | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
He hasn't asked to have the parliament's power, besides his | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
power, this has already been given to him, but dissolution of the | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
parliament. But a lot of the people criticising Morsi, they were all | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
the time, over the last year trying to say he needs to take decisions, | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
rather than say he's following the rules. Isn't this just unfinished | :25:02. | :25:09. | |
business? No, this is a threat to the transition. Egypt has a very | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
fragile democracy, it has had two sets of election, a decision like | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
this, to give a President absolute power with zero oversight, he has | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
given himself more power than the military had last year. At least | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
with the military some of those decisions we could challenge them | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
in the administrative courts. This is dangerous for Egypt's transition. | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
The fact it is temporary is no guarantee of improvement. People | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
have very serious concerns about the constitution right now, not in | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
terms of rights and provisions, but also the broad powers given to the | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
President. The promise of trust me, I will set myself above the law and | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
court oversight, but trust me, I'm going to take care of things, will | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
not resonate. Do you think that President Morsi is going to take | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
any more temporary powers, or is this the limit of it? I don't think | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
so, I think every way we look at it, most of the Egyptians agree about | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
the decisions of sacking the public prosecutor, all Egyptians agree | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
about having retrials of criminals that shed blood during the time of | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
the revolution. If we speak about trying to protect the constitution | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
and trying to protect the council, we have no, at the moment we have | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
no institution at all in Egypt after dissolving the parliament. | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
What's trying to say, at the moment, if we we are going to have voting | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
for this institution coming, of the sort of Morsi, they can say no to | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
the constitution if they don't like it. Do you take his promise at face | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
value that this is a temporary measure, and when there is a | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
constitution at the end of parliamentary election, and when | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
indeed there is a judiciary that is more inclined towards the Muslim | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
Brotherhood's point of view, he will recind these powers again? | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
think the main question is what is going to happen in the next seven | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
months. Why would a President set himself up beyond judicial | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
oversight. Why would he include provision number six which says he | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
can take all necessary measures to protect the revolution or the unity | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
of the nation f it wasn't for the fact that he's planning to issue | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
laws and decrees which will violate existing laws and violate | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
constitutional provisions and rights. Like what? I think there | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
are a lot of questions in terms of what's actually going to happen, | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
for example, with the next election. Morsi, on the one hand, disables | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
the role of the judiciary, yet will pass an electoral law and expect | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
judges to provide oversight at the next election F he pass as law that, | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
you know, remember the last one was declared unconstitutional, if he | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
passes a law that is simply unconstitutional, perhaps to even | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
benefit his own party, there will be no legal challenge to it, and | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
yet he needs the judiciary to play this role in supervising the | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
elections. This is incred below unhealthy. | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
There is nothing standing in his way, is there, he can do what he | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
wants? It is not about that. We have to see what he can do and has | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
already done. We all know we are sorry to say that the | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
constitutional court has been doing a lot of negative things, everyone | :27:58. | :28:05. | |
knows about it. He has taken powers without as much as a by-your-leave, | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
he has acted undemocratically? was actually the revolution a | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
democratic way of doing things? He has taken the decision for the | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
parliament to come back. Why did he say at the time of the revolution | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
that he was going to do this, nobody had any notice of this? | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
tried to say the public prosecutor has to go, and he has refused that. | :28:26. | :28:33. | |
The constitutional court, as we it has been announced before, that | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
actually they were planning everything in the dark with the | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
military Supreme Court before. So all the Egyptians have concern | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
about the constitutional court and what they are taking, and the law | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
for the election that has been set at the time of the revolution was | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
approved and passed by the constitutional court. Do you have | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
any faith that there will be elections in the next few months? | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
There was talk about next summer, the constitution was meant to be | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
ready by December? Obviously the President has just extended the | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
term of the constitutional by two month, that was necessary. I think | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
elections will go forward, that is not the question. The protection of | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
the Constitutional Assembly from any judicial challenges, is also | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
equally problematic, why would a President do that, it is not within | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
his right. There are checks and balances set up in the system. This | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
is clearly about pushing through a vision of the system of Government | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
that the ruling party, which controls the Constitutional | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
Assembly, is very keen on maintaining. I would agree there | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
are problems with the judiciary, and judicial independence is a huge | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
problem, but you don't address problems in the judiciary by | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
increasing executive interference by saying the executive would be | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
above the judiciary, it is not reform and will harm Egypt. | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
Review is up next, matter that is in Glasgow. | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
Tonight we have got a Hollywood comedy about bipolar disorder, has | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
been tipped for an Oscar. The big Christmas offering from the | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
National Theatre, John Lithgow will be telling us more about that. | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
Cross-dressing from Mark Rylance in Twelfth Night, with Stephen Fry | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
back on stage. And Jon Hamm and Daniel Radcliffe sharing a bath. | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
Sadly, not in the studio. Don't go away. That is just about | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
it for tonight from Newsnight, Government code-breaker at GCHQ are | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
stumped this week by a dead World War II carrier pigeon found in a | :30:26. | :30:30. |