Browse content similar to 10/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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help mothers get back into work. We help mothers get back into work. We | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
reveal what the Government hopes will happen to make childcare more | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
affordable and the economy a little more vigorous. | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
Looks sweet, doesn't she, but are she and her friends secret | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
saboteurs of the nation's economy. Can we afford to have a million | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
mothers priced out of work by the cost of childcare. We want to be | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
active members of society, that's all, and earn enough to feed our | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
kids. Would reforming the tax system sort things, and come to | :00:43. | :00:51. | |
that, why is childcare so dapld expensive in this country. | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
-- damned expensive in this country. With Cairo posed for demonstration, | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
and Goon squads on the streets. We talk to the opposition lead, | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
Mohamed El Baradei, what does he make of President Morsi's rule. | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
is something unprecedented in the whole history of the world. I don't | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
think any of the Pharaohs had the same powers. | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
And young, gifted and gaz san, what's it like to be 18 in one of | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
the most troubled places on earth. TRANSLATION: I haven't lived long | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
enough to know what will happen in future, all I know is we are born | :01:24. | :01:34. | |
:01:34. | :01:39. | ||
into war, we live in war, and we As any parent knows, children cost, | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
a lot. So much so hum drum. But the cost of childcare has now been | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
diagnosed as such a drag on the economy, that Newsnight understands | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
that the Government is about to try to do something about it. We | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
understand the coalition is considering reforming the tax | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
system, and relaxing restrictions on childminding. There will be | :01:58. | :02:07. | |
:02:08. | :02:08. | ||
announcements just after Christmas. Our political editor has more. | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
In among the traffic of inner city London, a statue to motherhood, in | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
among the Hurley burly of the British economy, mothers too have | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
retreated to bring up baby, while the hustle and bustle carries on | :02:20. | :02:30. | |
:02:30. | :02:32. | ||
around them. This statue is bronze, but you could measure what is lost | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
to the economy with women at home in gold bullion. The rise in | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
British living standards appears to be driven by at least, in part, | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
women entering the work force. But in recent years those rises have | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
plateaued, and childcare appears to be playing a part. When women have | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
children they don't as much reach a glass ceiling but a mess neen. | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
Their income is much diminished when they return. Politicians all | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
round agree it is a problem, a problem where nearly a million | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
women are missing from the work place. The Government talks a lot | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
about mums returning to work, but not doing anything to really help | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
us return to work, I want to, we want to. If they could put more | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
money into supporting mothers going back to work host-six months, nine | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
months, that would make a huge difference on careers not being | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
lost. A tale of two mums, on very different incomes, both visited by | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
Newsnight today. One training to be a nurse, and another, an | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
entrepeneur, who did run a company with with a large turnover, both | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
wondering why, in Britain today, it is so difficult to care for your | :03:43. | :03:50. | |
kids and care for your career. We have seen the appearance of | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
something of a childcare bubble. A lot of money has gone in, but the | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
price has risen higher and higher. The organisation of economic co- | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
operation and development, estimates in terms of how much the | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
Government puts into childcare, Britain is behind only the high- | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
spending Scandinavian countries. Experts can test this figure, they | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
say it includes elements that are not strictly childcare, and that | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
when a purer measure is used, British state spending on childcare | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
is actually somewhere in the middle. All three and four-year-olds | :04:21. | :04:27. | |
receive 15 hours of paid childcare a week during school term time. By | :04:27. | :04:34. | |
September 2014, disadvantaged two- year-olds will also receive help. | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
Childcare Tax Credits can be claimed by a household where when | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
either parent works 16 households a week. Most households to claim it | :04:43. | :04:53. | |
:04:53. | :05:06. | ||
Nonetheless, the cost to families appears to be very hive. According | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
to the OECD, the average UK family spends 27% of its income on child | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
cautious that is the second-highest among OECD countries. It is for | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
this reason that the inclination inside Government is to reform how | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
childcare is provides, free up the regulations on who can become a | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
childminder. In our experiences, the spaces required most are for | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
the younger age group. There has been a lot of attention, a lot of | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
funding on the nursery space, and therefore, accommodating older | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
children, therefore, I would be delighted if the focus could be | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
moved towards childminding, making it easier to register as a child | :05:45. | :05:52. | |
minder, increasing the numbers of childminder places, so enable more | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
children who of a younger age to be left in a home, nurturing | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
environment. It's for this reason that the inclination inside | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
Government is to reform how childcare is provided, before any | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
increase in its funding. Free up the regulations on who can become a | :06:08. | :06:15. | |
childminder. Ministers are looking to France. Their -- there one | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
childminder can look after four children, here it is three, but | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
quality is not diminished there. When I was looking for childcare | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
and deciding whether or not to work. I would have loved to place my | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
daughter in a home environment, where someone was looking after my | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
own child plus my dau, so I knew they were in control of what they | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
were doing, and they were happy to do that, that's what I wanted, was | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
a nice, safe environment for them. Whether they are following | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
educational guidelines was not a priority for me. | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
Increase league avail -- increasing availability of child minders, with | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
new requirements expected for higher qualifications with a view | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
to bringing down the costs, that is one way to bring down the wall in | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
childcare that the Government is to announce in January. What if easing | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
the availability isn't the only problem, what if state funding | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
isn't enough state funding. We want to get back to work, me and other | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
mothers in my situation, we want to get back to work, we want to be | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
active members, but we really can't, because of the financial restraints | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
we have on us. Labour politicians are proud of the | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
investment they made in child cautious including Sure Start, but | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
now many think they must change tack, that new money must be spent | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
on providing the child cautious instead of just giving the parents | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
the ability to pay for it, if there is little to buy, prices remain | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
high. Free universal childcare for all 1-4-year-olds, is something the | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
opposition would like to offer. do spend a lot of money currently | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
in this country supporting the childcare sector, supporting | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
parents. But is all that money being spent in the best way. This | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
is what we are trying to do. Hopefully we will be bringing | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
forward some proposals in due course, that will definitely make | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
this a lot better for the future. The Conservative came has always | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
been to make childcare tax deductable, Newsnight understands | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
they will make progress on this in January. Offering a flat rate of a | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
third tax-free, because there will be statues erected to the political | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
party that cracks this. The Institute for Public Policy | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
Research think-tank shows 25 hours provision a week, would provide a | :08:29. | :08:36. | |
net benefit to taxpayer for between �1,000-�4,000 a year for every mum | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
that returns to work. Something you can measure in gold. No-one from | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
the Government was available to speak to us tonight, I'm joined by | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
a French socialist MP, who represents French expats in | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
northern Europe. Karen Walker from the Bank First Direct, Zoe Williams, | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
and Helen Penn, I pointed by Government to write a report into | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
child cautious she has submitted her report and it is still awaiting | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
publication. What about the idea, professor, of one childminder being | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
able to look after more children, will that solve the problem? | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
Why not? Well, the problem is that the cost is so high at the point of | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
ruse, whether it is a childminder or a nurse -- use, whether it is a | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
childminder or nursery. Those childcare that has a low cost for | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
parents funds the provision directly, so when the parent comes | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
to pay it is reasonably calculated on the basis of household income. | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
We will get on to that point in a moment or two. Why is it in France | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
one person can look after so many more children than apparently they | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
can do here. Are French children better behaved? They are very | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
disciplined, don't you know! I'm not too sure, exactly. I think it | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
is three children per childminder. Are we overregulated? No, clearly | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
the child minders need good training and supervision. In France | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
we offer a mission of solutions, through Child Tax Credit, universal | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
child benefit and spaces in nurseries, and encouraging child | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
minders to do their jobs. What is your gut instinct? My gut instinct | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
is the Government is going about it all the wrong way. Basically, you | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
talk about a million women jumping out of the work force because they | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
can't afford child cautious that corresponds directly with the drop | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
in child -- childcare, that correspond dends directly with the | :10:36. | :10:44. | |
drop in -- corresponds directly with the drop in Child Tax Credits, | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
that coincides directly with that. The solution isn't more nannies, it | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
is making it possible for those on low incomes to afford childcare. It | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
is not for other women to earn less for other women to pay them, you | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
are creating a poverty problem somewhere else. Karen Walker, First | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
Direct, you run your own childcare programme there, do you? We do, yes. | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
It is run by an external company, but we have had the relationship | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
for the last 23 years. How many children have you got in it? Around | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
250 children in the nursery. many adults looking after that vast | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
number of children? It depends on the age of the child. But it will | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
either be a one-to-three ratio or one-to-four ratio, depending on the | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
child. Could the adults cope with more? Not in that environment, no, | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
I don't. Why is it worth your while, as an employer, providing this | :11:41. | :11:50. | |
service? Why do we do this? Yes? Because very much it is about our | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
support for our parents and carers to come back into work, when they | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
have been off on paternity leave or maternity leave. We have invested a | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
lot of time to recruit and develop these people, it is really key for | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
us to get them back into the work place and we are able to support | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
them for that. Why is it so important? Because we | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
invest up front, we invest a lot in these people, we know that if we | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
value our people that they will value our customer and we are in | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
the service industry. It results in amazing service for our customers. | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
You are not a social service, you are doing this because it makes | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
sense to the company? It makes perfect sense for our company. | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
Let's look at this question. Go on, you are desperate to get in? This | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
is the conversation they had in Germany, not particularly about | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
customer services, when we were discussing the fact that they had | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
very poor childcare provision, they said, look we spent all the money | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
educating women, then we lose theired education when they drop | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
out of the work force and don't come back, they literally had a | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
conversation, do you stop educating them, or do you start paying for | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
childcare! It was that stark. Because otherwise you lose so much. | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
Virtually every advanced western economy is confronted with this | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
problem, and they have decided to go about it in different ways, | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
Helen, you were referring earlier to wait in which the finances | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
operate, the Government finances? Yes, most countries use supply-side | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
funding, that is they fund the nurseries directly, so that | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
nurseries can offer low fees to those parents who can't afford very | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
much. We do it backwards so, we make people pay whatever the | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
nursery asks, and we say, well we will refund you, perhaps. So at the | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
point of use, parents are faced with huge costs for getting a | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
nursery or even a childminder. France went for that system, didn't | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
they, essentially, the French Government funds the nurseries | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
directly, doesn't it? Yes, yes. Which means it is almost free for | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
the parents. But then, not all the parents are guaranteed to have a | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
space. The current Government is undergoing a vast programme of | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
offering new spaces in new nurseries in order to meet the | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
requirements. I think it is half a million of children still need | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
spaces in nurseries. Well, I wish our Government would | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
copy you. It is also about the future of the state, because there | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
is the demo graphy at stake here, the children of today will pay for | :14:24. | :14:32. | |
the pensions of tomorrow. It is about a national strategy to | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
encourage families to have children. We spend by calculation, it is hard | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
to work out, about �7 billion in this country on this matter. | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
Possibly a higher proportion of the national income than you guys spend | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
in France. Why is it so inefficient here? It is always inefficient if | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
you give the finding retrospectively, people -- funding | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
retrospectively, people don't do it and it is a muddle. The number of | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
people who don't claim is really very high. We can't, it is very | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
difficult to track the funding, it is very difficult to follow it | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
through. But who are these people who don't claim, it is free money? | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
Well lots of them. There is unclaimed benefits all over the | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
place. It is hard to make claims. And any way, people's circumstances, | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
particularly when they have young families are continually changing. | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
Who really benefits from the fact that we do it this way round? | :15:28. | :15:38. | |
it's hard to say. It discriminates on people on lower incomes, isn't | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
that the case? Certainly our system doesn't benefit those on lower | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
income, if you look at it comparatively across the country, | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
we do rather badly by the poorest. Our system is just very wasteful. | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
It is not, as you say, we are not spending the money, we are spending | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
the money, but it doesn't seem to be going where it is needed most. | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
That is the absolutely baffling thing about childcare in this | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
country, is nobody is getting rich out of it, the nurseries aren't | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
getting rich, the nursery workers aren't getting paid that much, | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
mothers are crippling themselves to afford it. Childcare is very | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
expensive in this country? It is expensive everywhere, it is not a | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
cheap service. Human relationships cannot be priced down in a very | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
straight forward way. You can try. But still it is known to be very | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
expensive, it can cost up to �300 a week, so it means women have to | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
choose between keeping their job, or looking after their children. It | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
shouldn't be that. You have got children? I have two children. | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
you living here when you had them? Yes. Could you get childcare? | :16:42. | :16:49. | |
was a student, so I had to stay at home, I was looking for a job. | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
was simply because you couldn't afford it? I couldn't have afforded | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
it. Could you have afforded it in France? I suppose so, I haven't | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
tried, it depends where you live. In some cities childcare is | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
affordable, and it is not a case in the other places. You explain this | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
difference by the fact that the state subsidises the nurseries or | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
the childcare provision in France and it doesn't here? I suppose so, | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
all I can see is in the end the average spending on childcare for a | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
family in France is around 10% of the monthly budget, where as it is | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
around 30% here. So there must be something going wrong somewhere, | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
but I don't know where, exactly. Karen Walker, from your experience, | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
what do you think is the responsibility of the state? | :17:38. | :17:45. | |
think it's to provide help and support, in terms of the facilities | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
that we provide, and putting a little bit more pressure on | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
employers as well. I think there is a lack of facilities available when | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
you walk into a work place, that provides for working mums and | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
fathers. So you think that the state should | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
be encouraging other employers to do what you are doing? Absolutely, | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
yes. It should. Should it go further than encourage, should it | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
subsidise? I think that would be really useful. They do offer a free | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
education entitlement for children over three, so I could put my | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
children in nursery externally, and get that entitlement for free up to | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
so many hours a week. But, they could do so much more. | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
What's your sense of whether we're likely to change the way in which | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
we do this? We have some fundamental problems about how we | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
define childcare and education. You wouldn't expect businesses to | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
provide education instead of school, so why on earth are you expecting | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
them to provide childcare. I think the whole system that we have here | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
needs to be co-ordinated, better thought out, and if the price is | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
that parents notionally don't have so much choice, maybe that is a | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
good thing. Do you think Government is seized of the urgency of this | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
problem, what is it doing to the economy? Well, we have a lower | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
percentage, relatively low percentage of working women, 63%, | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
compared with up to 80% in some countries. But the worst thing for | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
me, I think, is that it is the poorest families who aren't using | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
the childcare. That's a question of social justice, I suppose, as much | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
as anything. What is the effect on society? That women aren't working, | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
or that children aren't getting educated properly. That women | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
aren't working, that you have this core of trained individuals who, | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
because of biological circumstances, are no longer in the work place? | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
That is costly, but I think it is also costly that children aren't | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
educated properly as well as looked after. Until we get it straight | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
what is childcare and what is education, and what we should be | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
doing for children and what we should be doing for mothers, we | :19:59. | :20:05. | |
will not really progress very much. What do you sense the consequences? | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
Obviously there is an economic consequence to lose these women out | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
of work force. Especially, as we know what happens, there is a | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
Doppler effect that the longer you are out the longer it takes to get | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
back in and you never get back to the same level. There is a social | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
problem if kids don't mix at a young age, Sure Start ensured that | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
kids from all kinds of backgrounds really got familiar with each other | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
from the age of one, it was a huge big deal. I think to lose that | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
would be really tragic. Do you sense something odd about this | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
society because of the way that we deal with this question? Not too | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
much French gloating, but off you go? No, but I'm not sure it is the | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
markets or the markets only that should deal with childcare. I think | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
it is a society question, and it should be also up to the state to | :21:00. | :21:07. | |
look into it. We have a system where childcare is regarded as a | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
business, and people buy into it. It is like all these things, under | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
the guise of choice, you end up with no choice at all, you can | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
either afford it or not, that is the only choice. We will await the | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
announcement after Christmas with great interest. | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
Thank you very much. Hard to read the ruins in Egypt these days, on | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
the one hand the new President has given up powers he had given | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
himself, but on the other he has authorised the military to arrest | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
civilians. Not unexpected on the second anniversary of the Arab | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
Spring there would still be demonstrations. Big protests are | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
planned tomorrow, ahead of the referendum this weekend, where | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
people are asked to pass judgment on their new constitution. Liberals | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
claim that Mohamed Morsi, the President, is as bad or worse as | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
President Mubarak. Before I talk to the opposition leader, Mohamed El | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
Baradei, our diplomatic editor reports. | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
Egyptians have certainly done plenty ofing since the fall of | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
Mubarak, but it -- voting since the fall of Mubarak, but it hasn't | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
brought stability. Protests and industrial action have done much to | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
frighten off tourists and investors, leaving Egypt's economy tottering. | :22:19. | :22:26. | |
Democracy, per se, has hardly helped. In November 201011, the | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
first of three phases of -- 2011, the first of three phases of | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
parliamentary elections were held, in January 2012 it produced a | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
majority for the Muslim Brotherhood, and Salafist parties. Then came the | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
presidential polls, the first round in May featured a variety of | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
candidates. By June, and the run- off between Mohamed Morsi and | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
former general Ahmed Shafiq, third way candidates who represented | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
neither the Muslim Brotherhood and the military had gone, many people | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
abstained as a result. Now on Saturday they will get the chance | :23:04. | :23:11. | |
to vote on a new constitution. But this has prompted renewed battle on | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
the streets. It retains existing clauses that | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
Sharia or religious jurs prudence should be the main source -- juris | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
prudence should be the main source of law. It gives the Islamic | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
university a role in drafting new laws, and says the state shall | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
protect ethics, morals and public order. It also allows for a | :23:33. | :23:40. | |
continued military role in upholding that order. | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
A limits the President to two four- year terms. Since Dr Morsi's | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
election, there has been a war of decrees, between a constitutional | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
court trying to thwart the new ruler. And a President who wants to | :23:53. | :24:03. | |
grasp his democratic mandate. TRANSLATION: I'm eager to protect | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
the legitimacy of the country, and I'm against those who harms the | :24:06. | :24:13. | |
institutions and the nations, I will never allow them to do that. | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
The President's decree of last month was intended to nudge aside | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
the judiciary, while he got the new constitution through. But the | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
backlash against his tactics has energised hundreds of thousands of | :24:26. | :24:33. | |
Egyptians, who reject both the old regime and the Muslim Brotherhood. | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
They had long alleged a de facto alliance between the country's old | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
military elite, and it's new Islamist masters. By calling the | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
army to protect the Presidential Palace, President Morsi has given | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
these opponents new purpose. Earlier I spoke to Mohamed El | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
Baradei, his home in Egypt. I asked him how he was planning to | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
vote in Saturday's referendum. Jeremy, I think at this stage you | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
are going to fight the referendum in the street. Tomorrow there will | :25:07. | :25:15. | |
be a huge demonstration. We believe it is illegitimate to go and vote | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
for a sham draft constitution. We would at least time to reach a | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
consensus on a constitution where we will all accept and all will | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
live with it. This is a constitution that defies our basic | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
rights and freedom, it doesn't establish a proper democratic | :25:33. | :25:40. | |
system. We are at this stage deciding that we continue to fight | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
tooth and nail the referendum next Saturday. You will boycott the | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
referendum? We are not sure at this stage, injure me I think tomorrow | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
we are going -- Jeremy, I think tomorrow we are going to stage a | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
huge demonstration, hopefully Mr Morsi will listen to us, and | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
postpone the referendum until we are able to reach, through dialogue, | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
a proper consensus on a proper democratic constitution. Why not | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
take part in the referendum, and at least register the size of | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
opposition? This is an option, but when the whole thing, Jeremy, is | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
illegitimate, when you have a document that defies and undermines | :26:19. | :26:26. | |
your basic rights and freedom, you don't want to give legitimacy to a | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
sham process. I have the constitution in front of me, it | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
guarantees freedom, equality, freedom of expression, what is | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
wrong with it? There is a lot wrong with it, Jeremy. If you look at | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
freedom of religion, we want to make sure that everybody has the | :26:40. | :26:46. | |
right to observe his belief. It is not there. It only talks about the | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
three monolithic religions, if you talk about freedom of expression, | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
it gives the permission to arrest people for their expressing their | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
views. It makes the whole process hostage to religious institutions, | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
rather than the judiciary. It is surely better than the constitution | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
you had under Mubarak, isn't it? I'm not sure, actually. In some | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
parts it is even worse than the constitution of President Mubarak, | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
that is the irony of it. That's why you see the anger in the street. | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
Because people, after this beautiful uprising, expected to see | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
a real democratic constitution. That has a proper balance of power, | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
that it has the freedom, the universal freedom, clearly | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
recognised. In some parts, which I'm sad to say that, it is even | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
worse than Mr Mubarak's constitution. Are you afraid of | :27:38. | :27:44. | |
something akin to civil war? It is there, it looms on the horizon. | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
That is why I'm calling on Mr Horsman and company, to make sure | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
that they have to understand, they are not a majority, even if they | :27:52. | :27:58. | |
are a majority, they are not at all. I think they are 20,-30% of the | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
Egyptians. It is not right to impose your views, which is to say | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
the least extremist views, that are not shared by the majority of the | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
Egyptians, to the rest of the country. If you insist on doing | :28:09. | :28:19. | |
:28:19. | :28:20. | ||
that, you are lead leaving -- leaving us no option than a head-on | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
clash. There is nobody who wants that less than me. The economy will | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
default in six months, security is not there, Sinai is a fertile | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
ground for extremism, how on earth are we going to work through this | :28:32. | :28:38. | |
without a proper dialogue. When you see how Mr Morsi is behaving, do | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
you wish you had had stood for the presidency? Absolutely not. I would | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
have stood for the presidency, Jeremy, if we had a proper | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
constitution. The reason I didn't stand is to avoid being in where Mr | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
Morsi right now, naturally I would not have been in his position, I | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
would have acted differently, but you do not want to be a President | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
in a situation when there is no rules of the game. I saw the other | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
day that you had had referred to Mr Morsi as something like a Pharaoh, | :29:03. | :29:10. | |
did you really mean that? Absolutely. He had, until yesterday, | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
when he recinded some part of this constitutional declaration, he had | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
call the powers, he had the executive power, the legislative | :29:17. | :29:24. | |
power, and he and -- and he NUT turd the judiciary. It is something | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
new in the whole world. I don't think -- newtered the judiciary, I | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
think it is something new in the whole world. I don't think this is | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
how you can rule a country in the 21st century. The country has been | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
reduced to one single person. are laughing this off, but this is | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
a very serious time for Egypt? is serious, it is serious for my | :29:46. | :29:52. | |
family. My daughter, who lives in London, and who probably will be | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
listening to me tonight is worried, my family are worried. I don't | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
think they can go through with that. I think that would be the beginning | :29:58. | :30:08. | |
of the end, frankly. We will stay in the Middle East for a while. In | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
the end, all these apparently iterimable conflicts, which the | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
rest of the world worries about until something else make as claim | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
on their anxiety, are about human needs, emotional as much as | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
material. Nowhere on earth, perhaps, matches Gaza, the shriller of land | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
on the Mediterranean coast, left to -- sliver of land on the | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
Mediterranean coast, left to the Palestinians. The Palestinians have | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
now achieved a degree of recognition by the UN, much to | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
Israel's fury, and Gazans have just emerged from a very one-sided | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
conflict with their neighbour. What is it like to grow up and live in | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
such an embattled society. We have been there speaking to two young | :30:50. | :30:58. | |
Gazans. 5.00am in Gaza, barely even dawn. | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
But time already to be stirring in one unlucky house. | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
A mother's duty, to send her son to place she dreads. | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
Though year by year it gets no easier. | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
Tea, she hopes, will revive him. But that's not the first fix | :31:23. | :31:31. | |
Mohammed needs to face the day. Elsewhere in Gaza, other hands are | :31:31. | :31:39. | |
breaking bonds. They are ego Tory get to work. | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
-- eager to get to work. Heading off towards the horizon, mad lean | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
loves her job, but she -- mad da lean loves her job, but she, too, | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
like Mohammed is caught in a web of restrictions she can't unravel. | :31:55. | :32:04. | |
This is the story two of 18-year- olds. Forced to grow up before | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
their time, in a tiny, teeming sliver of land, from which there is | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
almost no escape. Gaza, blockaded by neighbours, Israel and Egypt, | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
for the last five years, and at war again with Israel only last month, | :32:17. | :32:26. | |
there is little room for childhood. Mohammed is resisting reality, | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
today, as almost every day, he faces another gruelling and | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
dangerous 12-hour shift in the smothering tunnelling between the | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
Gazan and Egyptian border. TRANSLATION: This work is criminal | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
work, no-one should do it. Have you ever seen anyone dig their own | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
grave, their own grave with their own hands, while you are digging, | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
that the tunnel might collapse at any time and kill you. | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
But he must go, whatever the risk. Mohammed's father, with a bad back, | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
hasn't worked for years. His mother, depends on her son to | :33:03. | :33:10. | |
feed the family of eight. He is an adult now, just. But he | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
has been working full-time in the tunnels since he was 14. Before | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
that at many other jobs. TRANSLATION: I didn't have a | :33:20. | :33:27. | |
childhood. When I was eight I worked as a porter at the border. | :33:27. | :33:36. | |
Carrying luggage. Even when I was very young. I work as well as | :33:36. | :33:46. | |
:33:46. | :33:46. | ||
studying. But then, I found there was no time to study. Madelene has | :33:46. | :33:55. | |
had little time to study either. She's also her family's chief bread | :33:55. | :34:02. | |
winner, and Gaza's only fisherwomen, it makes her job more complicated. | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
TRANSLATION: I'm taking my gown out here, because the harbour is full | :34:05. | :34:12. | |
of men and boys, and they follow me with their eyes. | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
I get trouble from some fishermen, they are jealous of me, because I | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
go out to sea and come back successfully. | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
Sometimes they don't do so well. I get problems from the police too, | :34:24. | :34:34. | |
:34:34. | :34:35. | ||
because I'm the only girl. They say it is forbidden, you can't go. | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
But Madelene has gone any way, full-time for the last four years. | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
Like her father, and grandfathers before. | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
She is battling waves and politics. Israel, afraid of gun running, | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
won't less Gazans fish far out. The ceasefire, after last month's | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
conflict extended the limit, but only from three to six nautical | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
miles. TRANSLATION: When they gave us | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
another three miles, the catches got better, but in another few | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
weeks the fish up to six miles will be used up to. There are a lot of | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
fishermen and though go fishing all the time, most of the fish are | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
beyond the new boundary. Today with a storm brewing she's not testing | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
the limit, she might strike lucky close in shore, if the kid brother | :35:31. | :35:38. | |
can scare the fish into the net. At Mohammed's house, 22 miles away, | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
at the far end of the strip, work can be put off no longer. | :35:42. | :35:52. | |
:35:52. | :35:55. | ||
Or not much longer. He's off to be a human mole. | :35:55. | :36:04. | |
Another day. When a mother can only wait and pray. | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
With 28% unemployment here, thousands like him have taken the | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
road to the tunnels, since the blockade began. That was five years | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
ago, when the armed Islamist movement, Hamas, came to power here. | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
Now, the tunnels are a huge industry. One of the main | :36:23. | :36:30. | |
industries in Gaza. The holes that honeycomb the sand beneath the | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
border have become a mini-Klondike, the petrol pumped through, and the | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
mugled goods swept away, supply Hamas, providing much of the | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
Government's revenue. But the system depends on the cheap | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
muscle of men like Mohammed. Not for nothing his mates call him "the | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
untamed bull". He has drilled and dug many | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
passages like this through the treacherous sand and mud, hundreds | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
have been buried alive in recent years when they collapse. Suddenly, | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
they are worried it is happening again now. | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
Hear the distant thud, and look the power has gone off further down the | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
tunnel. TRANSLATION: The electricity went | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
off because the roof fell in. One prop slipped and took another with | :37:23. | :37:31. | |
it, if anyone had been underneath, it would have killed them. Now they | :37:31. | :37:41. | |
:37:41. | :37:52. | ||
have to switch the whole system off to try to repair it. | :37:52. | :38:00. | |
It's almost dark too at sea, where Madelene has made a catch. A haul | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
that will earn her perhaps 20 shekles, �3, it is nowhere near | :38:06. | :38:14. | |
enough to cover the cost of the fuel for today's outing. Now the | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
storm means no more fishing for a day or two. The family sit in the | :38:17. | :38:23. | |
dark in one of Gaza's many power cuts, mending nets. And thinking | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
about mending their gerry-built house, indirectly damaged last | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
month, by Israeli rocket attacks. TRANSLATION: Look it is all broken. | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
We have had to put some stuff on the roof. It is made of asbestos, | :38:41. | :38:47. | |
the shockwaves from the blasts break everything. We are very close | :38:47. | :38:55. | |
to military targets, so there are a lot of attacks around here. | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
Elsewhere in Gaza, whole houses were destroyed. More than 160 lives | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
were lost. Hamas says it won, mainly because a few rockets from | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
here hit central Israel, and it tells the two thirds of Gazans, | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
registered refugees, fugutives from what is now Israel or their | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
descends, that one day they will go -- descendants, that one day they | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
will go home. Madelene doesn't believe any of it? TRANSLATION: | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
story of our home town ended a long time ago. It is a dream toe think | :39:28. | :39:34. | |
we will ever return there. It is impossible. | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
Whielt conflict goes on, so do the tunnels -- while the conflict goes | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
on, so do the tunnels. Building materials must be smuggled, since | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
Israel fears Hamas might use them for military infrastructure, | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
weapons must be smuggled too. For the last two years, food and | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
consumer goods have been let in legally, but they are cheaper | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
brought in underground. Mohammed is taking break after repairing the | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
breach, alongside a boy who looks younger than he was when he started. | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
Then he's back to his main job, as beast of burden. | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
The work so exhausting most tunnel workers take the painkiller | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
tramadol. TRANSLATION: It is death work, | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
exhausting, yesterday I walked 500ms carrying a carbon net, I was | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
sweating all over. There is -- car bonnet, I was sweating all over. | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
There is no ventilation down there, you feel you can't breathe, you | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
can't carry on, that is why you take tablets. But Mohammed became | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
addicted to Tramadol, it turned him into an invincible machine, then it | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
sapped his strength, and used up all the money he was earning. | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
TRANSLATION: I stopped eating, I stopped drinking anything. All I | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
wanted was to take Tramadol and work like a donkey, it stopped | :41:03. | :41:11. | |
working so well. So I increased the dose. Then, one day I collapsed in | :41:11. | :41:20. | |
the tunnel, I was carrying a big sack of flour. I started having a | :41:20. | :41:28. | |
hit fit, I lost consciousness, that is when I decided to quit. I didn't | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
sleep for two months, I didn't talk to any human being. Two months, and | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
I thought I would never come back to myself. Fits, anger, a lot of | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
things happened to me, I hated myself, sometimes I wanted to | :41:43. | :41:53. | |
:41:53. | :41:55. | ||
strangle myself to death. But now, thank God, I'm not using it. | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
beach is where Mohammed spent much of his time as he overcame his | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
addiction, and still the only place he says he can relax. | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
TRANSLATION: The sea is my best friend, the only friend I can tell | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
my problems to. In another life, he would like to be an airline pilot. | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
But he knows that will never happen. Doesn't he feel bad that young | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
people in other countries have a chance to study, and even to play? | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
TRANSLATION: That's what I feel. Very much. Many times I have | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
wondered why I couldn't be like them. Well-dressed, going to school, | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
everything perfect, why it has to be like this for me, are they | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
better than me. Madelene will have to marry soon, she has had lots of | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
suitors already. But she and her father have said no | :42:49. | :42:56. | |
to them all. TRANSLATION: I don't believe there will be anyone who | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
will deserve Madelene and protect her. I don't think she will have a | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
good future in this country. Our society is closed, very closed, and | :43:05. | :43:11. | |
she's a free spirit. Her marriage may fail because here they don't | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
respect independent women. As for Madelene herself, the sea is the | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
only horizon that means much to her. TRANSLATION: I hope the sea will be | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
open much more than six miles, and all the other gates to Gaza will be | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
opened, and everyone will stop thinking, every time they hear a | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
plane that there is going to be a rocket attack. But she's not very | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
hopeful. Madelene, like Mohammed, was born in 1994. The year after | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
the Oslo peace accords between Israel and the Palestinians. But | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
neither she nor he, unlike their parents, has ever spoken to an | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
Israeli, just think, she's older than the average Gazan, who is only | :43:54. | :44:00. | |
TRANSLATION: I haven't lived long enough to know what will happen in | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
the future. All I know is we are born into war, we live in war and | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
we will die in war. Mohammed's vision of peace is | :44:12. | :44:19. | |
narrow, all it means to him is escaping this underground hell. | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
TRANSLATION: I hope the gates will open, and the tunnels will close, | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
and there will be jobs so we can leave this kind of work. Everyone | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
will be able to do whatever they want, but, as you see, nothing has | :44:36. | :44:42. | |
changed. We haven't gained our victory yet. | :44:42. | :44:48. | |
Gaza, as he says, is a place that can only live from day-to-day. With | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
no light yet at the end of the tunnel. | :44:54. | :45:00. | |
Tomorrow morning's front pages now. Many of them like the Telegraph are | :45:00. | :45:06. | |
dominated by the photograph of the husband and daughter of the nurse | :45:06. | :45:16. | |
:45:16. | :45:29. | ||
who apparently killed herself after That's it, excitement in the bird | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
watching world, flocks of wax-wings about everywhere, seen from | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
Lichfield to Lothian, they are like a small brown par the question, | :45:38. | :45:46. | |
with red blobs like ceiling wax on their wings. They are visiting from | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
points north. If there is an old wives tale, that lots of sightings | :45:52. | :46:02. | |
:46:02. | :46:23. | ||
means a hard winter to come, it is rubbish, they are just hungry. | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
# He'll say are you married # We'll say no man | :46:26. | :46:32. | |
# But you can do the job when you're in town | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
Hello, very cold tonight, a widespread frost, there will be | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
icey patches in the morning, across eastern England, fog patches | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
further west, and some of those will linger all day. Most places | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
should brighten up nicely, see some sunshine, it will be a colder day | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
than today. Down the eastern side of England, the wind not as strong | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
as today. There should be more sunshine, fewer showers. Watch out | :46:53. | :46:58. | |
for icey patches in the morning. A dusting of snow in one twor places. | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
Further west some sun -- two places. Further west fog lingering all day. | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
The like of the West Country, Somerset level, up across Worcester, | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
the West Midlands and the Welsh marshes, together with parts of | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
North West England, and around Cheshire. Northern Ireland should | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
have sunshine, after some early patchy fog here. A similar story | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
across Scotland, a cold, crisp winter's day sunshine for the most | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
part T will feel cold. Temperatures tomorrow lower than today. It | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
doesn't get much warmer on Wednesday either. Notice fog there, | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
around Manchester still, on Tuesday. And it could be a bit of a problem | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
on Wednesday as well. We have to find more fog, more freezing fog | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
developing, again, very quickly on Tuesday evening. Tuesday neat, and | :47:43. | :47:46. |