13/12/2012 Newsnight


13/12/2012

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More than �2 million, for a man forced on to a plane, imprisoned in

:00:14.:00:17.

Libya, and claims he was tortured. Has the Government payout done

:00:17.:00:24.

enough to save the reputation of the Secret Intelligence Service?

:00:24.:00:27.

MI6 might want to move on, but it is hardly going to end there.

:00:27.:00:32.

Others are suing, and the service will face police and judicial

:00:32.:00:37.

inquiries into Hirst its conduct. An end of term report on free

:00:37.:00:40.

schools, it was the Education Secretary's big idea, have the new

:00:40.:00:45.

kids delivered, and what does the competition think? I think they

:00:45.:00:49.

feel we are a threat, and they are worried about the competition. I

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think they find that, for them, it is a challenge.

:00:54.:00:59.

Is it healthy or unhealthy competition? We will be debating

:00:59.:01:02.

that. After cleaners dropped letters on

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to the minister's desk at the Department of Work and Pensions,

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they are to get pay rise to the living wage. Can anyone other than

:01:10.:01:13.

the public sector and big companies afford to pay it. Two small

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business owners here, one who pays the living wage, and another would

:01:19.:01:29.
:01:29.:01:32.

Good evening, it is a lot of money for the Government to pay up in

:01:32.:01:38.

case where they have not admitted any liability. Sami Al-Saadi, an

:01:38.:01:41.

opponent of the late Colonel Gaddafi, said the Government were

:01:41.:01:45.

involved in rendition for him in 2004, along with his family, where

:01:45.:01:50.

he says he was tortured. He may remember last year that William

:01:50.:01:57.

Hague said accusation that is MI5 and MI6 had colluded in the ill-

:01:57.:02:03.

treatment of detainees. The apparent abduction happened when

:02:03.:02:09.

Tony Blair was engaged in an entente cordiale with Colonel

:02:09.:02:15.

Gaddafi. Britain's relations with Libya have

:02:15.:02:19.

gone from good to bad and back again. And done so more than once.

:02:19.:02:26.

People were bound to get caught out in that ebb and flow, and in 2011,

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it went sour for MI6. Documents detailing their co-operation with

:02:34.:02:38.

Libyan intelligence, were recovered from an HQ, as revolutionary

:02:38.:02:47.

sources feesed Tripoli. Wn told the tale of a Libyan Islamist militant

:02:47.:02:56.

called Abu Munthir. This was a none deGurerre for Sami Al-Saadi. He was

:02:56.:03:02.

detained on a rendition flight. When I arrived to the aircraft door,

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they handcuffed me and my wife. 2004, Mr Al-Saadi and his family

:03:07.:03:11.

had gone to Hong Kong, he says he was lured there, only to be

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detained on passport violations. British intelligence officers

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contacted the Libyan authorities to tell them that the Al-Saadi family

:03:19.:03:24.

were in detention and might be transferred to Libya. A Libyan

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aircraft was dispatched as far as the Maldives, before it became

:03:29.:03:31.

apparent that the Hong Kong authorities wouldn't allow it to

:03:31.:03:35.

land. The CIA stepped in, offering to charter a plane to deliver the

:03:35.:03:40.

detainee, but said that any help was contingent that Abu Munthir and

:03:40.:03:44.

his family, will be treated humanely. Eventually the means were

:03:44.:03:50.

found to get them to Libya, where he remained in jail for more than

:03:50.:03:56.

five years. British intelligence officers visited him there.

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British team, two people, one lady and one man. They came to see me.

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Did you tell them you were being tortured? I couldn't, because I was

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being tortured again. I can't say what I want.

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At the time of Sami Al-Saadi's rendition, Britain and Libya had

:04:17.:04:24.

become friends again. After paying out compensation to the victims of

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Lockerbie, Colonel Gaddafi welcomed Tony Blair to his country. Trade

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deals were done, and so were favours granted in the intelligence

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business. A second leading member of the militant Libyan Jihadist

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underground, Abdel Hakin Belhaj, was also bundled on a plane, and is

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now seeking compensation. We wanted the British Government to apologise

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for what it did against us. And for the injustice against us and the

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mistakes made against us. Especially from the British

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Intelligence Services. The Foreign Secretary at the time has, in the

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past, denied authorising the Libyan renditions. Not only did we not

:05:10.:05:14.

agree with it, we were not complicit in it, nor did we turn a

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blind eye to it. No Foreign Secretary can know all the details

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of what its intelligence agencies are doing at any one time. However,

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sources in Whitehall have stressed that the transfers of Mr Al-Saadi

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and Belhaj, were signed off, by political masters. Today Mr Straw

:05:31.:05:41.
:05:41.:05:45.

Where does it end? The management of MI6 has been anxious to contain

:05:45.:05:50.

the reputational damage from these Libyan cases, and avoid revealing

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battles in UK courts. The Libyans - - Libyans' lawyers in this country

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insist that shouldn't be the end of it. We need an inquiry into this

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case, the Metropolitan Police are carrying on a criminal decision,

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which goes right to the highest level of ministers, about

:06:09.:06:14.

complicity in these potential crimes. That's the first step. But

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then we really do need to know, both in this case, and generally,

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if it was just what happened under the Blair regime, and in the

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alliance with Bush, then, we need to know that too. Sami Al-Saadi has

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said he accepted �2 million to prevent further suffering for his

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family, and to fund their education. The British Government has learnt

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its lessons from this saga too. There are plenty in the

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intelligence business who argue that MI6 may now follow the law so

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closely, that its ability to co- operate with others has been

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undermined. First of all, you talked about, as

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it were, staunching the reputational damage of MI6, will

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this be enough? I think that's been the aspiration of their management

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for some time. But people who were involved in the secret aspects of

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these cases know, that they are going to be under scrutiny,

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possibly for years to come, from the police investigation and also

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there is a judicial inquiry under way. Now, as far as I can tell,

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they seem to think that they might well be vindicated by those

:07:22.:07:26.

inquiries, they feel they acted within the law at the time, and

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therefore, they regard today's payout as not a particularly

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positive or good thing, because it appears to cast doubt about the

:07:34.:07:39.

behaviour that they saw as being quite legitimate. They now feel

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compromised. �2.2 million of public money being handed out is quite a

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lot of money. Do you think that this, for the Government at the

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moment, this is the least worst option? The problem is things have

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got tangled up, there is the Justice and Security Bill, being

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debated at the moment. It is deeply politically controversial. Some

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people in the secret world had been hoping that if this went through,

:08:00.:08:05.

this would be safeguards against full disclosure, in civil cases,

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and there would be other safeguards in criminal case, that would

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prevent them having to reveal everything that plaintiffs might

:08:14.:08:18.

want in some of these cases. There is a feeling that perhaps they

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settled on this one, because they didn't want to have to contest this

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case under existing rules. Because they have come a cropper before?

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They have had to settle before. Thank you very much, with me is Ben

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Emmerson QC, a human rights bars te, and the UN special raptor on human

:08:36.:08:42.

rights and counter terrorism. Let's be clear the Government has

:08:42.:08:46.

made no admission of liability on this one? That is absolutely right,

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one needs to approach these things with caution and an open mind. What

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your viewers will recall is in January last year, the inquiry set

:08:56.:09:01.

up by David Cameron, under the chairmanship of Sir Peter Gibson,

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was wound up precisely because of these two cases. Mr Belhaj's case

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and Mr Al-Saadi's case, while police investigations continued.

:09:09.:09:13.

The results of those investigations are not yet known. What we do know

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is that two key documents that were found amongst the office in the

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office of Mussa Kussa, following the fall of Tripoli, are the

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smoking guns. When one sees the documents, and they are very, very

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specific, they are some what more than smoking guns, they are a gun

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with two smoking barrels. One is the memorandum from Sir Mark Alan,

:09:39.:09:46.

then head of MI6's counter terrorism department, to Moussa

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Kussa, formally acknowledging that he was responsible for the

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rendition of Mr Belhaj. And decribing him as "air-cargo", the

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other was the United States cable to the same effect in Mr Al-Saadi's

:10:02.:10:05.

case. Do you think this is keeping all the intelligence out of court,

:10:05.:10:08.

as Mark says? There is no question of that happening in this case. In

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January, when Ken Clarke, the Justice Secretary, wound up the

:10:13.:10:15.

Gibson Inquiry, he announced once the cases had been fully

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investigated by the police, there would be a further judicial inquiry

:10:19.:10:24.

into these cases. Are you disappointed that Mr Al-Saadi is

:10:24.:10:28.

settled? No, I understand exactly why he has been settled, and I have

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been in close consultation with his lawyers. I'm due to report on this

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and other cases to the human rights council in March. Mr Al-Saadi had

:10:37.:10:41.

four children, my understanding is that the offer that the UK

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Government made was its first offer, that is the first point. It was an

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awful of �2.2 million, first of all, secondly, it was an awful that it

:10:52.:10:55.

was intended to xen -- an offer that was intended to compensate him

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and his family. Had he chosen to fight on, it was clear to him and

:11:00.:11:03.

made clear to him that the compensation to his children would

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not be paid. Now we are in a situation where Mr Belhaj will not

:11:07.:11:13.

settle? Mr Belhaj has made it absolutely clear that he intends to

:11:13.:11:17.

continue to a final decision. Can I say this h this isn't just about

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money, this isn't just about individual actions against the

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Government, or the reputation of MI6. But they may be vindicated?

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don't think there is any doubt that there was British and US Government

:11:32.:11:36.

involvement in the transfer of these two men to Libya. Nor any

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doubt that they were tortured during the course of their

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detention in Libya. What the consequences of that are remain now

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to be seen. You are pulling together all this for your report

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in Geneva in March. But actually, it doesn't have any clout, does it,

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in terms of US and British politicians? The position is this,

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for a decade now, the crimes committed by the Bush era CIA and

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the proxies in Europe, have gone -- proxys in Europe, have gone

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shielded by the Government's in Europe. Now, just as we speak today,

:12:15.:12:19.

that dam is beginning to crack. What happens next? What happens

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today, apart from this case, is a decision of the European Court of

:12:23.:12:26.

Human Rights, finding that Macedonia was responsible for rend

:12:26.:12:33.

diction and, indeed, that the CI -- rendition, and indeed, the CIA

:12:33.:12:43.
:12:43.:12:46.

inserted a truncheon into the anus of a man called Al-Masseri and they

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have said that Macedonia was responsible there. There are cases

:12:52.:12:56.

since Poland and Romania. Although the UK is not involved in any of

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those, what is clear is the web of interaction between those states is

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finally becoming under the light of public accountability. Thank you

:13:04.:13:09.

very much indeed. Like Chairman Mao moo, we have

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embarked on a long -- Chairman Mao, we have embarked on a long March to

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improve our schools system. It is two years since Michael Gove set

:13:18.:13:25.

off on the March, and the free school systems has started, 79

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opened and more to come. What is the impact on the children who

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attend, the performance of the school, and the wider college of

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schools. This is an end of term report.

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Earlier this year Paul and Debbie Edwards made a difficult decision,

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they took their 12-year-old daughter Rebecca, out of an

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established local secondary school, where she had settled in, and put

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her in a brand new free school near their home in Cheshire. I really,

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really didn't want to come of the I wouldn't even touch the blazer or

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anything, I didn't want to come. I didn't want to leave all my new

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friends in the other school. after a term in the new school,

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she's happy. Mum and dad persuaded me and said it was best for me. It

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is like going to another home. It is nothing to be worried about.

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far, there are just 38 pupils in Sandymoor School in Runcorn. That's

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up from 19 at the start of term, and the headteacher says it is in

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line with his plans. 21 of them are, like Rebecca, in year eight, they

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have left other local secondary schools. There is a small amount of

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people in each class, so it's like more one-to-one, and more help, and

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the teachers make the lessons really good. They are really

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friendly. And they don't treat you like children, they treat you like

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adults, and if you respect them they will respect you back. For now,

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the school is in temporary classrooms, thanks to capital

:15:02.:15:05.

funding from the Department for Education, they should have a new

:15:05.:15:11.

building here, in this adjoining field, by 2014, with room, they say,

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for 900 children. It was a very hard decision, because it was just

:15:15.:15:23.

an open field, it was absolutely a brand-new school, no Ofsted reports,

:15:23.:15:27.

em. It was moving her away from her friends, she had settled into the

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school she was in. It was a hard decision, but you have to do what's

:15:31.:15:37.

best for your kids, you think. According to the Government, free

:15:37.:15:42.

schools are set up in response to local demand, to improve education

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for children in a community. They are competition for established

:15:45.:15:52.

schools. What is your relationship like with the other local secondary

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schools? Hmmph. Em, formal and professional. I think that they

:15:58.:16:05.

feel we are a threat, I think they are worried about that competition.

:16:05.:16:09.

I think they find that, for them, it is a challenge. For me it is

:16:09.:16:12.

more about collaboration, it is more about how we can work together,

:16:12.:16:17.

it is about young people, not small politics. The income of all schools

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depends on how many pupils they have. They get funding directly

:16:22.:16:27.

from the Department for Education, around �5,000 per head per year, in

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this local authority, Halton. Here in Halton there is currently a

:16:31.:16:34.

surplus of secondary school places, that is the way the free school

:16:35.:16:41.

policy was intended to work. Partly by creating new kinds of schools,

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partly by introducing real choice for parents, real competition

:16:45.:16:50.

between schools. So pushing them to raise their standards. So, what

:16:50.:16:57.

impact is the new free school having on other schools here?

:16:57.:17:02.

going to burn some magnesium powder and compare rates of reaction.

:17:02.:17:07.

miles from Sandymoor is The Heath, an outstanding school, according to

:17:07.:17:13.

Ofsted, it is a big school, 250 pupils per year. They are moving

:17:13.:17:16.

with the times, they have become an academy and starting their own

:17:16.:17:20.

sixth form. The free school is not a threat to them, they say. As far

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as The Heath goes, we are far from the free school, we are our ethos

:17:24.:17:28.

and aims, I wouldn't be worried about it. I think we work really

:17:28.:17:32.

well in collaboration with other schools. I can't comment how other

:17:32.:17:36.

heads feel, I know there are surplus places in Runcorn schools

:17:36.:17:40.

at the moment. That is a problem for schools? It could be a problem

:17:40.:17:44.

for some schools. Two schools are most likely to be affected by the

:17:44.:17:47.

free school, both with GCSE results below average. Neither was

:17:48.:17:53.

available to talk to us. The local authority says if the free school

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does expand, as planned, then other schools might have to cut teaching

:17:57.:18:03.

posts and subjects. What I'm interested in is the impact on

:18:03.:18:07.

other schools, we want every school in Halton to be a success. We also

:18:07.:18:10.

have a responsibility for the pupils attending our schools today,

:18:10.:18:14.

that their future education isn't threatened by their school not

:18:14.:18:18.

being viable, or a large number of surplus placess, or money being

:18:18.:18:23.

removed from their budgets, which otherwise would have gone to them.

:18:23.:18:28.

Across the River Mersey, and to the north, lies the authority of

:18:28.:18:38.

knowsly, while Halton's -- Knoosley, while Halton's results were the

:18:38.:18:42.

highest in the area, their's are the lowest. The Government is

:18:42.:18:46.

trying to get local people to support the idea of a free school.

:18:46.:18:52.

That is how free school ideas are brought into being, there is no

:18:52.:18:55.

central planning. Some parents believe schools should

:18:55.:19:00.

improve by working more closely together, rather than by competing.

:19:00.:19:05.

Stuart, on the piano, and Logan, on the violin, go to a North London

:19:05.:19:09.

primary school that was forced to become an academy. Now, out of

:19:09.:19:13.

local authority control, it is part of the Harris Federation. Their

:19:13.:19:18.

mother, opposes free schools? want all children to have a good

:19:19.:19:22.

education at their local school, now that some parents can form a

:19:22.:19:25.

group and decide we're going to have this type of school for our

:19:26.:19:35.

children. It is unfair. Schools in London have improved, thanks to the

:19:35.:19:39.

London challenge programme, where schools, and local authorities work

:19:39.:19:44.

together. It is not terrible, the education system here, it is not,

:19:44.:19:49.

it is actually a success story. The secondary schools in London are a

:19:49.:19:55.

massive success story, and the primaries aren't terrible.

:19:55.:19:58.

Harris Federation say they run a family of schools, which support

:19:59.:20:07.

each other to improve. London's population is growing, approaching

:20:07.:20:11.

its record high. London councils estimate they will need 90,000

:20:11.:20:16.

extra school places within the next four years. So free schools in the

:20:16.:20:20.

capital are less about providing parental choice, and competition

:20:20.:20:30.
:20:30.:20:32.

between schools, and more about satisfying basic need.

:20:32.:20:36.

This new free school in Enfield, down the road from the Williams

:20:36.:20:40.

family, was so oversubscribed, they ended up taking two reception

:20:41.:20:49.

classes instead of one. To Rachel Wolf, who helped make free schools

:20:49.:20:54.

a reality, it is a sign that the policy works. But although nearly

:20:54.:20:59.

200 free schools have been approved, or opened, there are around 23,000

:20:59.:21:04.

schools in England. She believes there must be more to make a bigger

:21:04.:21:07.

impact. What we would really like to see going forward, is to

:21:07.:21:10.

increase the flexibility of the programme. Particularly around

:21:10.:21:15.

sites and Prom sis, which remains the big -- premises, which remains

:21:15.:21:18.

the biggest challenge for groups across the country when opening a

:21:18.:21:22.

school. If they could increase the flexibility in allocated capital

:21:22.:21:27.

funding, you will see even more free schools coming forward.

:21:27.:21:31.

Not all free schools have been successful. Two failed to open this

:21:31.:21:37.

year, they hadn't enroled enough pupils. Others are not yet full.

:21:37.:21:41.

Many have had difficulty finding sites. If there is urgent need,

:21:41.:21:46.

local authorities sometimes support free schools, it is often the

:21:46.:21:50.

easiest, quickest, cheapest way to get extra school place. But they

:21:50.:21:54.

don't want to see them in areas where there is a surplus already.

:21:54.:21:58.

What we would like to see is Government aproving free schools,

:21:58.:22:04.

primarily where that will meet the basic need in the local area. And

:22:04.:22:06.

secondly, where it creates surplus places to add competition in into

:22:06.:22:11.

the community of local schools. Where there is such a desperate

:22:11.:22:14.

shortage of school place, in London and the south-east of England and

:22:14.:22:18.

across cities in the UK, we should be spending the money there first,

:22:18.:22:22.

and locking at those areas where there is already maybe -- looking

:22:22.:22:29.

at those areas where there is already 20% surplus places in the

:22:29.:22:33.

free school systems afterwards. Government gave the free school

:22:33.:22:38.

policy a boost this month, by promising money for 100 more. The

:22:38.:22:41.

Department for Education told us they would be in areas where there

:22:41.:22:44.

is the greatest pressure for school place, and that the majority of

:22:44.:22:48.

free schools were in areas of basic need. They said they had no plans

:22:48.:22:58.

to review the schools approved to open next year and beyond.

:22:58.:23:01.

We did ask for a Government minister to appear on the programme,

:23:01.:23:05.

to discuss their flagship free schools policy, none was available.

:23:05.:23:11.

With me are the headteacher of the Bedford Free School, and parent and

:23:11.:23:17.

former teacher, who is trying to open a new free school in Oxford,

:23:17.:23:22.

Lucy Rhys a parent governor from Camden, where the schools have the

:23:22.:23:27.

best Ofsteds in the country. And the headteacher of the West Bridge

:23:27.:23:31.

Ford School. In your free school, what does it have that other free

:23:31.:23:34.

schools have? We have deliberately gone out of our way to offer

:23:34.:23:38.

something different to local parents. We are a secondary school

:23:38.:23:43.

in an area with middle and upper schools for children. We are

:23:43.:23:46.

smaller. It is not about competition? It is about giving

:23:46.:23:52.

parents and students more choice and diversity. You heard Andrew

:23:52.:23:54.

Green-Howard saying he has a professional relationship with the

:23:54.:23:57.

local authority school, but he is seen as a threat? I don't see it

:23:57.:24:03.

like that. Only this morning I was in the secondary school Heads'

:24:03.:24:06.

meeting, we are working together like any other schools in the

:24:06.:24:10.

family of schools. We are collaborating over things we have a

:24:10.:24:14.

common interest in. That is always what has been done. People can

:24:14.:24:17.

worry about new schools, but the evidence is that we are all getting

:24:17.:24:22.

in there and getting stuck in like everybody else. From your point of

:24:22.:24:27.

view, presume blie it is about choice, if it is all about choice -

:24:27.:24:31.

- -- presumably it is about choice, and if it is all about choice, you

:24:31.:24:34.

might not have the right provision? I don't think there is a

:24:34.:24:37.

headteacher in the country that would want children to have to

:24:37.:24:41.

select their school because they have no choice, and they have to.

:24:41.:24:44.

That is the case for a lot of people at the moment? There is the

:24:44.:24:48.

case for the free schools, and we would have to welcome free schools

:24:48.:24:53.

into the education system, if they provide choice for parents,

:24:53.:24:57.

particularly where there is need and there aren't enough secondary

:24:57.:25:03.

school places. That, for me, the free school, would be a positive

:25:03.:25:08.

outcome of the agenda. In your own area, you have good reports, there

:25:08.:25:11.

is sufficient provision, and so you don't want free schools in your

:25:11.:25:18.

area? As I say, I don't mind, and I don't object to choice. In my

:25:18.:25:21.

particular circumstances, there are actually 12 secondary schools

:25:21.:25:25.

within a three-mile radius, we are an outstanding school, and we are

:25:25.:25:28.

confident that parents will still want to send their children to us.

:25:28.:25:32.

Where you don't have a need for pupil places, and where there isn't

:25:32.:25:37.

an issue to do with standards, is that the right place for a free

:25:37.:25:41.

school. So basically what you are saying is you should only have free

:25:41.:25:44.

school where there is a problem with the provision that exists at

:25:44.:25:47.

the moment, you shouldn't have a free school where you have a school

:25:48.:25:52.

like your's, doing well in Ofsted reports and whatever. It is not

:25:52.:25:56.

necessarily about choice, it is about filling a gap? Well, as I'm

:25:56.:25:59.

saying, I think there is plenty of choice, certainly in our area

:25:59.:26:05.

already. But I'm really reflecting the DEFT criteria when they are

:26:05.:26:09.

looking at free school, they do focus on is there enough school

:26:09.:26:12.

provision in the area, and what is the standard of the local schools

:26:12.:26:15.

in the area. You are trying to open a school, you have had one bash at

:26:16.:26:21.

it so far. Why are you so desperate to have a free school? We're in

:26:22.:26:25.

Oxford and there is a compelling need for more school places. By

:26:25.:26:31.

2014, when we plan to open, there will be 200 places too few in the

:26:31.:26:35.

system. There is a genuine and statistical need for more places,

:26:35.:26:42.

we are asking -- answering a need in the city and improving the

:26:42.:26:45.

outcome for the kids. You are a teacher and very well best placed

:26:45.:26:51.

to know what to do about creating a free school, are you saying that

:26:51.:26:54.

actually rather than improve the local authority provision, you need

:26:54.:26:59.

a free school to, in a sense, to up their provision, is it about that.

:26:59.:27:02.

Is it about driving everybody upwartds? We have been careful not

:27:02.:27:07.

to use the word "choice" or "competition", we don't think it is

:27:07.:27:10.

about choice but good local schools for everybody. There is a need for

:27:10.:27:13.

more schools in the city, the schools in the city are trying to

:27:13.:27:16.

improve, and there is good teachers trying to improve their schools. I

:27:16.:27:20.

wish them well in doing. That we are not in competition with them.

:27:20.:27:23.

There is scope, they recognise this, to improve what they are doing,

:27:23.:27:27.

they recognise the challenge. is the case that is thrs not enough

:27:27.:27:31.

provision, that is why you -- there is not enough provision, that is

:27:31.:27:34.

why you can start a free school, but it is an issue with the kind of

:27:34.:27:38.

provision? We are answering both of those issues, there are free

:27:38.:27:42.

schools where they are not, one of the unfortunate things is there is

:27:42.:27:46.

an opportunity with this policy, and the academy programme, to

:27:46.:27:50.

increase the amount of innovation in the system, there should be more.

:27:50.:27:55.

Therefore, surely what you want to do in Oxford is what you should

:27:55.:27:58.

support? I don't support it. It is not needed. My children go to

:27:58.:28:01.

schools in Camden, a recent Ofsted report said that children who live

:28:01.:28:05.

in Camden have the best chance in the whole of Britain to go to a

:28:05.:28:08.

good or outstanding school, our schools are controlled by the local

:28:08.:28:12.

authority who do a brilliant job. What I think, this gentleman...What

:28:12.:28:17.

Happens when you are in schools in areas where, as was said, the

:28:17.:28:21.

provision is neither sufficient to the need, or indeed, as far as he's

:28:21.:28:24.

concerned, challenging enough? Government has decided that the

:28:24.:28:27.

only new schools it is going to build are free schools and

:28:27.:28:30.

academies, that is a policy. There is no reason why money couldn't be

:28:30.:28:33.

given to his local authority, the Government has decided against that.

:28:33.:28:37.

That is a political and ideolgical decision. It is really interesting,

:28:37.:28:40.

everyone wants their children and the children in the local area to

:28:40.:28:43.

go to really good local schools, no-one is arguing against that. The

:28:43.:28:47.

key thing for me is, who are the people best placed to decide what

:28:47.:28:51.

is the right kind of school for their child? Experts? I think you

:28:51.:28:55.

should come to talk to the nearly 200 set of familiar a parents who

:28:55.:28:58.

sent their children to our school. I think the idea that other people

:28:58.:29:02.

know better than them what is right for their child, they might find a

:29:02.:29:07.

little bit patronising. I have just had such good experiences of the

:29:07.:29:10.

people who run my local school. My children go to, I have two children

:29:10.:29:14.

in the school system, one is too young for school, basically,

:29:14.:29:17.

particularly the older child, the school is fantastic, they work very

:29:17.:29:21.

closely, one of the things I like particularly about the way it

:29:21.:29:24.

operates, it offers a joined-up service. If your child needs extra

:29:24.:29:28.

service, it gets it and joins up with other agencies. Maybe a free

:29:28.:29:30.

school could do that. But there is a co-ordinated approach to

:29:30.:29:36.

education that I like. Listening to this from your perspective here,

:29:36.:29:39.

what we seem to be saying, certainly from this point of view,

:29:40.:29:44.

is actually people are losing faith in local authorities to make the

:29:44.:29:47.

best provision for the children, not necessarily in Camden, that is

:29:47.:29:49.

what you are saying. Not necessarily in your school. But do

:29:49.:29:52.

you accept that some people actually do not trust the local

:29:52.:29:58.

authority to be the best provider? Yes, I'm sure there are examples of

:29:58.:30:00.

that around the country, where local authorities have failed local

:30:00.:30:07.

parents for many, many years. I would emphasise the point with free

:30:07.:30:10.

schools, they can work and be very successful, where there is a lack

:30:11.:30:14.

of school place provision in the area. Or that schools themselves in

:30:14.:30:18.

those areas have been failing parents for some time. Where you do

:30:18.:30:22.

have very good local schools, providing high-quality education

:30:22.:30:25.

for parents, and where there isn't the need for school places, then

:30:25.:30:29.

actually they can have a destablising effect on those

:30:29.:30:36.

excellent skoolgs. A destablising - - Schools. A destablising effect?

:30:36.:30:41.

No, where we came along there was a balance in the supply of places,

:30:41.:30:46.

and we have created another 100 places per year group. That is

:30:46.:30:50.

undoubtedly having an affect on local schools, as we are adjusting.

:30:50.:30:53.

It might have a detrimental effect, it might be that those schools are

:30:53.:30:58.

deemed to fail and the budgets close, that is the market then?

:30:58.:31:02.

some parts of the town the children weren't going to local schools and

:31:02.:31:08.

driving miles to go everywhere else. While we have above the average

:31:08.:31:12.

number of free school meals, they have had those coming from the

:31:12.:31:17.

independent sector, to bring more students into state education, I

:31:17.:31:21.

think that is a fantastic thing. The free schools are doing that.

:31:21.:31:23.

don't think you need the free school, you can support local

:31:23.:31:26.

authorities f a local authority isn't doing well, why can't it be

:31:26.:31:31.

supported, why can't the moneying shared out. We have in Camden, you

:31:31.:31:38.

have heads that will go, our head at Toriano free school is going to

:31:38.:31:41.

another school to help them improve, why not have people working

:31:41.:31:44.

together to help the local authority, I want to see schools

:31:44.:31:48.

sharing. There is generations of attempts to improve the school

:31:48.:31:51.

system, the national strategies did great work, it has hit a wall. I

:31:51.:31:54.

think there is an opportunity for innovation and fresh blood into the

:31:54.:31:59.

system. We need to look at how we can einvolve the school system.

:31:59.:32:04.

Isn't it the case -- Evolve the school system. It is on the fringes

:32:04.:32:08.

and it seems a middle-class endeavour, if free schools are

:32:08.:32:11.

going to provide a proper alternative, there needs to be a

:32:11.:32:16.

critical mass, as Rachel Wolf says, there needs to be more. At the

:32:16.:32:20.

moment we are around about 450,000 school places short, and the free

:32:20.:32:24.

schools will only provide 250,000 of those. Maybe we do need to do

:32:24.:32:28.

more. I think the key thing I want to say is that the structural

:32:28.:32:34.

school does not in any way preclude, innovation, working together. By

:32:34.:32:37.

opening up the system to new groups coming in. Two thirds of new

:32:37.:32:41.

schools being opened are teacher groups like mine. The Government

:32:41.:32:45.

set them up for competition t but you guys are saying where they are

:32:46.:32:49.

is where there is a lack of provision? In our case that is not

:32:49.:32:52.

the case. Our standards at 16 are well below the national average,

:32:52.:32:56.

and what drove us on, three years ago, a group of teachers talking

:32:56.:33:02.

together, the idea that by the time a child has sat their GCSEs they

:33:02.:33:05.

have spent 14,000 hours in the classroom, and I don't know how

:33:05.:33:09.

many tens of thousands of pounds invests in theired education, do we

:33:09.:33:13.

really think that only 55% of our children in our country are capable

:33:13.:33:17.

of reading and writing and adding up. Absolutely not, the teachers

:33:17.:33:23.

are great and schools are great, we need to get closer to every child

:33:23.:33:27.

achieving that. What I see about free schools, you are a passionate

:33:27.:33:31.

educator and a nice guy, what is worrying is business will move in

:33:31.:33:35.

on it. Most parents like myself haven't the time or energy to set

:33:35.:33:39.

up school, but there are lots of big companies out there gag to go

:33:39.:33:43.

get their hand on education budgets. That is my fear about them. That is

:33:43.:33:46.

why decided today get on board. We are worn out people trying to do

:33:46.:33:49.

this t the reason we are doing it is because there is a window at the

:33:50.:33:53.

moment, whether for-profit comes into schools and the academy chains,

:33:53.:33:58.

that are waiting, at the moment we can control the process as parents.

:33:58.:34:02.

Five months ago the cleaning staff of the Department of Work and

:34:02.:34:04.

Pensions left letters on the ministerial desk they cleaned,

:34:04.:34:09.

complaining about their wages. Now, rather than the minimum wage, their

:34:09.:34:14.

demands are to be met, and they will be paid a living wage, that is

:34:14.:34:20.

�7.45 in London, and less outside London. Is this a new kind of

:34:20.:34:24.

bargaining power, directly where it hurts. What if you are not a big

:34:24.:34:28.

public employer or a large company, could your company cope with such

:34:28.:34:32.

demand, and should the minimum wage just go. We will hear from two

:34:32.:34:35.

owners of smaus small business, one who pays a living -- of small

:34:35.:34:39.

business, one who pays a living wage and one that doesn't. What do

:34:39.:34:47.

you want for clis mass? -- Christmas? For these people,

:34:47.:34:50.

campaigning outside the Department for Work and Pensions in London, it

:34:50.:34:54.

is a pay rise, that is what they have done. 450 low-paid catering

:34:54.:34:59.

and cleaning staff, working for the Government's contractors, will,

:34:59.:35:05.

from April 2014, get paid what is known as the living wage.

:35:05.:35:11.

At the moment the national minimum wage for those over 21 is �6.19 an

:35:11.:35:15.

hour, employers have to pay this by law. Over the past few years, a

:35:15.:35:20.

campaign has grown to say this isn't nearly enough to live on.

:35:20.:35:23.

�7.45 is the figure we're told that is required to meet the normal

:35:23.:35:27.

costs of living. It is called the living wage, and it is higher in

:35:27.:35:32.

London, at �8.55 an hour. Although there are clearly tidings

:35:32.:35:37.

of great joy here at the DWP tonight. Let's be clear on what

:35:37.:35:41.

happened, the DWP maintained they didn't make it a condition that the

:35:41.:35:45.

company pay their workers more. And the company says, that they are

:35:45.:35:48.

absorbing the full costs. It is difficult to make the case that

:35:48.:35:52.

this is a profound shift in Government or party policy. No,

:35:52.:35:57.

what we might be witnessing here, though, is a shift in industrial

:35:57.:36:00.

power in Britain, the rise of something like soft industrial

:36:00.:36:05.

power. The living wage campaign gained

:36:05.:36:08.

national prominence over the summer, when Newsnight reported that

:36:08.:36:18.

Government cleaner, Valdimar venture ra, had left a letter on

:36:18.:36:22.

Nick Clegg's desk asking for the living wage.

:36:22.:36:26.

He was moved on, but Nick Clegg has written and asked him to return.

:36:26.:36:34.

This has caused a lot of problems. I didn't sleep in two months. My

:36:34.:36:40.

wages were down, my families as well -- family's as well, I have

:36:40.:36:44.

given a lot of support but it is not easy to pass now. Now I'm very

:36:44.:36:48.

happy, because I know so many politicians give me support.

:36:48.:36:53.

living wage for the UK is calculated by Loughborough

:36:53.:36:57.

University, they take into account such factors as rent, council tax

:36:57.:37:00.

and childcare, what their computer spits out is lots of different

:37:00.:37:04.

living wages. Ranging from �6 an hour for someone in a child less

:37:05.:37:10.

couple, to a whopping �18.57 for a lone parent with three children.

:37:10.:37:13.

These individual living wages are then weighted by how common that

:37:13.:37:16.

group is in the population as a whole, to come up with one national

:37:16.:37:21.

figure. The politicians do seem to be

:37:21.:37:25.

getting on board the idea of a living wage, from Boris Johnson in

:37:25.:37:27.

London, Nick Clegg and David Cameron in Government, and Ed

:37:27.:37:32.

Miliband in opposition. He says a Labour Government would name and

:37:32.:37:37.

shame big companies, who don't pay the living wage. In Scotland too,

:37:37.:37:40.

the Scottish Government and many local authorities are now committed

:37:40.:37:45.

to paying it. Obviously increasing the lowest rate of pay in the

:37:45.:37:53.

council to �7.50 an hour, living rate, does come at a cost. But we

:37:53.:37:57.

have looked at the figures carefully, we can afford it. As I

:37:57.:38:01.

believe it will not just benefit the employees who receive the extra

:38:01.:38:06.

money per hour, it will benefit the local economy. While there might be

:38:06.:38:10.

a small cost to implement it, the greater good for Edinburgh

:38:10.:38:12.

outweighs that. It will generate income spending into the local

:38:12.:38:17.

economy. The costs for businesses vary.

:38:17.:38:20.

According to research from the Resolution Foundation, the living

:38:20.:38:25.

wage would add considerably to some sectors. For example, bars and

:38:25.:38:31.

restaurant, rising 6.2%, general retailers 4.9%, and food and drug

:38:31.:38:37.

retailers 4.7%. There is less of an impact on other sectors, banks

:38:37.:38:43.

least hit, a living wage would odd 0.2 to their costs. Robert runs a

:38:43.:38:48.

string of care homes in Scotland, local authorities are his biggest

:38:48.:38:51.

customer, it supports the living wage in principle, but worries who

:38:51.:38:55.

will meet the cost. At a time when we are all struggling, and in my

:38:55.:39:03.

view, councils are struggling as well. It is really such a poor and

:39:03.:39:08.

bad time n my view, it doesn't make any sense at all to be introducing

:39:08.:39:12.

it at this current time. Having it as an aspiration, and a goal we

:39:12.:39:17.

should all be looking to get to, in four or five years time or

:39:17.:39:21.

something, and work out a way of trying to get there, then fine, I'm

:39:21.:39:26.

all for that. To force us to do it when we have nowhere to go.

:39:26.:39:30.

Meanwhile, at the BWP, the campaigners are sending a thank you

:39:30.:39:33.

to the minister. The impact of moving from the minimum to the

:39:33.:39:37.

living wage is clearly huge for individuals, it is less clear what

:39:37.:39:41.

it means for the economy as a whole, and what it means for tax-payers

:39:41.:39:47.

and consumers, whose own finances are already under pressure. The

:39:47.:39:54.

politics seems to be moving more and more in its favour. Well, Jan

:39:54.:39:57.

Cavell runs her own furniture company in Suffolk, she has 30

:39:57.:40:02.

employees and is against the living wage. Miles Carroll is the chief

:40:02.:40:08.

executive of an on-line payments company in Staffordshire and

:40:08.:40:12.

employs 16 people, he renegotiated with staff to make sure everyone

:40:12.:40:15.

was earning the living wage. You didn't get letters on the table,

:40:15.:40:19.

but what persuaded you? It is always the right time to do the

:40:19.:40:23.

right thing. When we saw the campaign, it really struck us as

:40:23.:40:26.

the appropriate thing to do, so that we could run our business in

:40:26.:40:30.

the best way we can, by attracting the right people, retaining those

:40:30.:40:34.

people, and making sure our customers were well served. You are

:40:34.:40:40.

saying rather than an economic argument, or a moral argument with

:40:40.:40:44.

an economic benefit eventually? made the moral decision first and

:40:44.:40:47.

backed it with good business. is not possible for you, it is not

:40:47.:40:53.

what you want? I would love to be able to pay all my employees as

:40:53.:41:00.

much as possible. You know, it is not a question of it, it is a

:41:00.:41:04.

different type of business entirely. It as different structure. I'm in

:41:05.:41:10.

manufacturing, which is very different, of course, from you. In

:41:10.:41:15.

fact I'm in a very specific part of manufacturing in furniture. We have

:41:15.:41:22.

now direct competitors, we have lots of competition that never

:41:22.:41:26.

quite does the same thing as us. We can't get for some areas, we can't

:41:27.:41:30.

get people to come in ready skilled. You are pay the minimum wage while

:41:30.:41:36.

you train them? Absolutely. You know there isn't, because I have

:41:36.:41:40.

tried, the equivalent on Government apprenticeship schemes. Financially

:41:40.:41:46.

have you said like him that it would benefit you eventually?

:41:46.:41:50.

doesn't for a variety of reasons. We can't get the skill off the

:41:50.:41:54.

street. We have to do the training. You subsidise it for the first two

:41:54.:41:58.

or three years and then they are trained up? What would be your

:41:58.:42:01.

argument to say that she should take the leap and see what happens?

:42:01.:42:05.

I think customers will follow value. We will understand what a business

:42:05.:42:09.

stand for, and they will buy into that. We are all about innovation,

:42:09.:42:16.

qal and excellence. That comes from our people, not from our -- quality

:42:16.:42:20.

and excellence, that comes from our people not business. You use it

:42:20.:42:26.

like a calling card? We have, categorically, in the last four

:42:26.:42:32.

months, won business from promoting that. We promote excellence too, we

:42:32.:42:35.

train our staff to be skilled craftmen, that takes time and going

:42:35.:42:39.

through a process. Interestingly are you concerned about your own

:42:39.:42:44.

staff seeing the power of the living wage and saying here is the

:42:44.:42:50.

minimum wage and a living wage, it doesn't appear an hourly rate to be

:42:50.:42:53.

so different? Starting line, I don't pay on the line of minimum

:42:53.:42:58.

wage. I pay under a starting point of what the living wage would be,

:42:58.:43:03.

depending on what they set it at, there is talk of �8 for next year.

:43:03.:43:07.

What do you feel about big business, particularly, let's leave big

:43:07.:43:11.

business to one side, talk about public, local authorities, who

:43:11.:43:15.

essentially are saying, for example, as they are doing in Edinburgh, we

:43:15.:43:18.

are now going to move to the living wage, but as a taxpayer you helping

:43:19.:43:26.

to pay for that. And you would then, as it,were penalised? I think it is

:43:26.:43:29.

horrendously worrying for small business, like myself, struggling

:43:29.:43:34.

to break even, or not, for the last few years, and we're trying

:43:34.:43:39.

desperately to keep staff in work, those staff have stayed local and

:43:39.:43:43.

on low wages. You get a situation where it is enforced bringing in

:43:43.:43:47.

wages at a higher level. What happens to the staff who have moved

:43:47.:43:55.

up and grafted. If we wanted for newcomers to come in at the same

:43:55.:43:58.

wage. It would be gross. Do you think the days will soon be

:43:58.:44:02.

numbered with the campaign and everybody that responds to it, but

:44:02.:44:05.

you will have both the minimum wage and the living wage? Picking up the

:44:05.:44:10.

point around salies, as a country we are one of the richest countries

:44:10.:44:17.

out there, GDP �36,000 in the UK. We can't do a race to the bottom on

:44:17.:44:21.

salaries against countries like China, with a quarter of our income.

:44:21.:44:25.

Ultimately we have to innovate and change. When we look at our

:44:25.:44:29.

business, operating in niche, exactly as January's business does,

:44:29.:44:35.

my -- Jan's business does and my business dose t proebgttebgts us

:44:35.:44:41.

from that. We have to do -- does protect us from that.

:44:41.:44:44.

Presumably the living wage would help the poor in a trap at the

:44:44.:44:47.

moment? I preerpbt that, of course I do, but -- appreciate that, of

:44:47.:44:50.

course I do, but equally getting the economy going will also help.

:44:51.:44:58.

You know I just find it the most mammoth Government double sync that

:44:58.:45:04.

they ask us to buy into, you know, understanding that it is the age of

:45:04.:45:08.

austerity, because there isn't any money available. Yet they can turn

:45:08.:45:12.

around to businesses who they are asking to rescue them from the

:45:12.:45:16.

whole thing, from this whole thing, and they can say to business, well

:45:16.:45:21.

you may not be able to afford it, but you have to pay out any way.

:45:21.:45:31.
:45:31.:45:54.

Where is the justice in that. That's all tonight, Jeremy is

:45:54.:45:57.

staying up late tomorrow night, I will be back with review. Join us

:45:57.:46:07.
:46:07.:46:33.

Good evening, just in time for the weekend, milder weather moving its

:46:33.:46:37.

way into the UK. But for Friday it does come tied up with some very

:46:38.:46:41.

wet and windy conditions as well. Particularly to the south of the UK,

:46:41.:46:45.

some heavy downpours on their way. By the afternoon perhaps some of

:46:45.:46:48.

the heavyist of the rain sitting across northern England, into East

:46:48.:46:50.

Anglia and the south-east. The afternoon should see the rain

:46:50.:46:54.

easing some what, along the south coast, but the morning could be

:46:54.:46:59.

tricky, partly because of high tides and the south-easterly wind

:46:59.:47:05.

direction. There will be a risk of coastal flooding, applying to the

:47:05.:47:09.

Bristol Channel too. Rain in the afternoon, despite that much milder

:47:09.:47:13.

than of late, temperatures in double figures, it will feel chilly

:47:14.:47:17.

in the wet and windy conditions. Northern Ireland in for a wet day,

:47:17.:47:22.

a risk of coastal flooding in south eastern areas. For Scotland a risk

:47:22.:47:26.

of blizzards ayes cross the Grampian, strong wind and some --

:47:26.:47:31.

across the Grampians, strong wind, but the rain not until the late in

:47:31.:47:41.
:47:41.:47:45.

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