Browse content similar to 10/01/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Thinking the unthinkable. Why should pensioners carry on being | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
exempt from welfare cuts. Two distinguished senior citizens give | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
us their views. We are all in this together, we have to confront the | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
crisis together, and that means elderly people have to be ready to | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
give up benefits they don't need. Elderly people have already paid | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
their share during their working lives, they paid taxes and national | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
insurance, and are entitled to the benefits of that. | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
We will debate, does grey power have a politicians running scared | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
from attacking the state pension and Winter Fuel Allowance. Also | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
tonight, as the men accused of the rape and murder of an Indian | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
student appear in court, we will reveal just how appallingly women | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
in India are treated, kidnapped and sold into sexual enslavement, some | :00:57. | :01:06. | |
:01:07. | :01:09. | ||
of them. We have an exclusive interview with | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
a bowl wood veteran and activist. Without a doubt, India is a | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
patriarchal society, and we have internalised a patriarchal mind set | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
in which the girl child is not given the value she deserve. Also | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
on the programme tonight? I'm a Lib Dem who has just torn up his | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
membership card. I joined the party first in 1973, I'm afraid, I cannot | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
now say that I want to represent the Lib Dems. On the day the Deputy | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
Prime Minister begins his very own weekly date with the people, Steve | :01:42. | :01:52. | |
:01:52. | :01:55. | ||
Smith has the definitive take on the political radio phone-in. | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
Good evening, David Cameron believes that pensioners should be | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
a protected species, and the figures speak for themselves. Half | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
of all benefits spending goes on pensioners. Overwhelmingly on the | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
weekly pension, but also free bus travel, Winter Fuel Allowance, and | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
free TV license. And now that the decision has been made not to make | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
major changes to the way the Retail Price Index is calculated, it is | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
another boost for older people. Ken Clarke may have hinted that the | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
next Tory manifesto might not make such happy reading for pensioners, | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
but right now, when everybody else, including children, have to make do | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
with less to reduce the deficit. Is it morally right to hold pensioner | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
benefit as sacrosanct. First tonight, we have two pensioners' | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
views, Dot Gibson and the author Stanley Johnson. We have to start | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
with the idea of the road sign, two old people crossing the road with a | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
stick. It is not that any longer. I think the state pension begins at a | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
much too early an age, I think the idea that you necessarily qualify | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
for a state pension at the age of 60 or 65, that just doesn't make | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
sense now, given the demographic situation we are in, we will all | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
live until we are 80, 90, 100, you can't, as a country, afford to pay | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
pensions for decades. I think after 40 years or more of work, people | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
are entitled to a decent length of time in retirement. I don't agree | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
with putting up the age of retirement, which both Governments | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
have now done. We are in an economic and financial crunch and | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
we all have to contribute to getting out of this. Older people | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
are suffering very much under the cuts. We know there will be more | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
they are not wealthy, and do find things extremely difficult to | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
manage. The younger generation, who have, indeed, been hit by house | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
prices on the one hand, and the cost of education on the other. | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
They have been hit by the fact that they are also funding, as I | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
mentioned a moment ago, state pensions for the elderly, on an | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
increasing scale, and probably medical care for the elderly. If | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
you go down the route saying the state will also pay for social care, | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
then the burdens which will be bourne, by, as it were, the working | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
population, will be become, absolutely unsupportable. It is the | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
principle of paying tax and insurance, and then being entitled | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
to the benefits arising from that. Everybody pays their tax and | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
insurance, they should get universal benefits. The problem | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
about universal benefits is that they are universal. And by | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
definition, they give to some sectors of society, benefits which | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
they don't actually need. Winter Fuel Allowance, social care, old | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
people's bus pass, our country as a whole, can't afford these benefits | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
for people who can well afford to do without them. We have to | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
understand that the state pension is among the lowest in Europe. We | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
have already seen cuts in housing benefits, cuts in day centres, | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
meals on wheels and things like this, which are really affecting | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
many millions of pensioners who feel lonely and isolated. I would | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
say we are the luckiest generation, we are what is called the "baby- | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
boomers", we left school and university at a time when jobs were | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
easy to get, we earned large salaries. Look at the younger | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
generation, the cost of education is tough, and the work market is | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
tough. They have a huge amount of bills to pay for the generation | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
that have preceded them. We shouldn't push our luck too far. | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
The generation I belonged to, I was ten at the end of the Second World | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
War, has benefited greatly from the welfare state. But I think that | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
this generation, the younger generations today have to | :05:39. | :05:46. | |
understand that welfare state didn't come into being out of thin | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
air, it was fought for, and they have to stand up and defend it, | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
alongside us. Elderly people have to realise that a large part of the | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
nation's wealth is now spent on dealing with the problems of the | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
elderly. We have to say to ourselves, can, as a nation, we | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
afford, can we afford that? Well, there you have two personal views. | :06:07. | :06:14. | |
But we love our hard data here on Newsnight, we crunched the number. | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
Welfare is by far the biggest element in Government spending. By | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
2016, it will account for nearly one pound in every three spent by | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
the state. The Government has already set out cuts in welfare, | :06:28. | :06:36. | |
amounting to �18 billion by 2014-15, and, this week, they successfully | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
introduced a bill that would limit the rise in certain benefits to 1% | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
a year for the next three years. That's a cut in real terms. However, | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
none of these changes have had any great impact on pensioners, despite | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
the fact that Treasury figures show, that over half of all welfare | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
spending goes on them. Mostly the state pension itself, but also | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance, which costs �2.1 billion | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
each year. And goes even to millionaires. On top of this, there | :07:11. | :07:19. | |
are other benefits, like free TV licenses for the over 75s: �588 | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
million a year. And concessionary bus travel, which could be costing | :07:23. | :07:30. | |
up to �1 billion a year. David Cameron made a specific pledge in | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
the 2010 election campaign, to protect these benefits. He's | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
insisted that this is a promise he does not intend to break in this | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
parliament. Pensioners have also benefited from the called triple | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
lock, introduced by the coalition, through which the state pension | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
would rise by whichever is higher, out of RPI, prices, or 2.5%. Last | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
year, as inflation peaked, the increase was set at 5.2%, giving | :08:02. | :08:09. | |
pensioners the biggest-ever cash increase in their pension. So, is | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
it all sunny in the retirement garden? Far from it, the coalition | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
change the inflation -- changed the inflation measure, used to up-rate | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
occupational pensions from RPI to CPI, which is, generally lower. | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
They also introduced the change to the age-related income tax | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
allowance, which was quickly dubbed the Granny Tax. This, according to | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
the Institute for Fiscal Studies, will particularly affect people | :08:36. | :08:43. | |
retiring next year, they will be worse off by nearly �270 a year. | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
People who buy anuts with their pensions have also been -- | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
aknewties with their pensions have also been affected by Government | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
policy, as bank rates have been so low, the yield from these is low as | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
well. In any case, any talk of immunity from cuts, is likely to | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
prompt a hollow laugh from the two million pensioners judged to be | :09:04. | :09:12. | |
living in poverty, and the million said to be living in fuel poverty. | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
They have to spend more than 10% of their income on heating. This | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
consideration, combined with the naked political fact, that older | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
people vote more, will give any politician pause for thought before | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
making significant cuts to pensioners' benefits. Stanley | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
Johnson and Dot Gibson are both here, as is Ann Pettifor, director | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
of Prime Economics, and Ruth Porter from the Institute of Economic | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
Affairs. We will begin with the Winter Fuel Allowance. Tomorrow | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
morning's front page in the Mail, says it is enough to make you | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
shudder, and the temperatures are set to plunge to minus ten, and the | :09:49. | :09:58. | |
average heating bill for the elderly soaring to �1,350. It is | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
only �2 billion plus of the spend on the Winter Fuel Allowance, but | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
the very universality is as divisive as it is cohesive. | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
spent �2 billion bailing out the City of London and that wasn't | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
devisive. We spend 2% of the social security budget on some of the | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
perks that the pensioners get. Of course, as a society and democracy, | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
we might want to shift where we put the burden, and where we reward | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
pensioners and whether we do or not by margins, but, honestly, it is so | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
minuscule, in terms of our economy. What we are doing is we are looking | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
at one side of the balance sheet, the spending side. We are doing | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
nothing about generating income. To pay for that. We are shrinking the | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
income side of the economy. You know, so I find this really | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
infantile, the economics. Infantile economics, but it is getting the | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
Winter Fuel Allowance at 60, it is totemic? We might want to have an | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
argument about this, it is such small beer, and to break a | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
political principle of universality, which is a moral, and philosophical, | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
do we want to live in a society where the rich get richer. We have | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
just done it with child benefit, therefore, the argument would be, | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
if we are all in this together, then, you cut child benefit, you | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
actually cut the allowances for childcare from 80% to 70%, they are | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
taking the hit at that end of the scale. You know, presumably there | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
is an argument which says that everybody has to take a hit? You | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
talk about people, you worked for 40 years, and you want to enjoy | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
your retirement, but let's say and hope that you live to the ripe old | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
age of 95. Yes. Are you really saying there will be enough in the | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
pot to pay you Winter Fuel Allowance, free bus travel, and | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
increased state pension, all the way there? You know they fix the | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
pot, and then they tell us that we have to be bound by the things that | :11:54. | :12:01. | |
they say. In actual fact, the rich are paying less tax, the poor are | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
paying more, people are on short- term contracts, very low pay, and | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
are living on benefits, and it isn't a question of pensioners | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
against younger people who are at work, or who are unemployed, it is | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
a question of rich and poor. The pensioners come within that | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
category. There is this myth that the amount of money which has been | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
paid into the system is enough to care for us in our old age, it is | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
simply not. We have now got a situation where a large part of the | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
bill for old age is being passed on to future generations. Part that | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
have is through the national debt we have accrued, that future | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
generations will have to pay back, part of it is younger generation, | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
the working generation, are, at the moment, facing massive cuts to | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
their benefits. Also a large part of it is through tax rises on those | :12:48. | :12:55. | |
who are working. The calculation was when the pension was set at 65, | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
that people would live to the age of 66, now, thankfully, people are | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
living longer, and what was put in during their lifetime, is not | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
enough for their healthcare and everything else. That is right, we | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
have not grasped the demographic situation. One third of the babies | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
born today are going to live to 100. That is what they say, is that | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
really true? Unless global warming intervene, it may do. Is that | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
really true? My generation had a good diet, we were given cod liver | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
oil, orange juice and the rest of it, we didn't overeat on all these | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
fast foods, but there is a generation now that has got this | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
problem, together with the fact. People are living longer, and all | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
the Government is doing, they are increasing. We are living longer. | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
They are increasing the retirement age by 67 by 2028, it should be 678 | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
in the next ten years. You are living longer because of the | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
benefits that have accrued because of better medicine, and so forth? | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
The welfare state. They cost money? The we is do we want to live in a | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
civilised society, a society in which we say, first of all, we make | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
our young people unemployed, we strip our mothers of child benefit, | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
we impoverish our children, and impoverish our elderly and allow | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
the City of London to get richer. That is not civilised. Taking away | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
the City of London for a moment, there was a huge issue, and it | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
still goes on, that in a way there was a moral duty, there was a | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
social compact here. Post-war, the war generation, that lived through | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
terrible depravation, and so forth, and there was goodwill towards them. | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
Now we are going to people who are pensioners, who actually, probably, | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
lived high on the hog, and who are now in their late 50s and early 60, | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
and are actually going to have to pay back. We worked very hard. | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
Younger people work very hard? you think a man. A large number of | :14:50. | :14:56. | |
people are unemployed thanks to the Government's policies. Could a chap | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
intervene in this argument, I'm slightly outnumbered here. They are | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
not abolishing the Winter Fuel Allowance, it is not abolishing the | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
gas. The issue is, should the people who are very well off | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
benefit from those? Would you suggest that the evidence, the | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
evidence would suggest from what happened with child benefit reform, | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
actually means testing, the bureaucracy of that could be | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
incredibly counter-productive. that case, where do you cut it off. | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
There are only 250,000 pensioners out of 11 million who are actually | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
paying the higher rate of tax. It won't mean anything. It is peanuts. | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
What about the intergenerational point, do we have a duty? It is | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
interesting, if you go back and look at what Beverge intended with | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
the welfare state, it was something that was very minimal, something | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
there to ensure the most vulnerable people in our society were | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
protected. Everyone agrees that is still what we want. Everyone wants | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
vulnerable elderly people to afford to heat their homes, that is not in | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
question. But the point is, if we want to live in a civilised society, | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
where we get along with each other, where we don't resent each other, | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
we need to live in a society where we're not overly taxed, where we | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
are not putting bebt on to the next generation. -- Debt on to the next | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
generation. What would you do to the state pension, would you like | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
to see it raised so everyone is on �10,000, what would you like to | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
see? The most important thing is we put up the retirement age, that is | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
part of why we have ended up in a lot of the problems that we have | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
ended up with. The Government should be looking at putting it up | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
probably to 68, within the next ten years, as a start. I think also we | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
need to move to a system where we say we care for ourselves in our | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
old age through saving, and at the moment, it is very difficult for | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
people to save, because taxes are so high, because they are paying | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
for things like Winter Fuel Allowances. Interest rates are so | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
low. There are 60% of people at work are getting benefits, it is | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
not that the unemployed are getting most of the benefits, it is people | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
at work that are getting the benefits, the wages are so low. | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
What do you say to Ruth Porter's idea that actually, it is not about | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
means testing, it is not necessarily even about things like, | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
you know, fuel poverty and the Winter Fuel Allowance, it is about | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
a fundamental change to raise the retirement age successively and | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
quickly towards 70, because actually n your middle to late 60s | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
you are not old? If Ruth is happy to go on working until she's 70, | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
that's fine. It should be 80, come on. And you know, if Ruth that's | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
fine. But people get very tired, I know that people that have worked | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
very hard that are very grateful for their pensions. I wonder if you | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
would like to work on a building site when you are 80, you might be | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
able to write, but you won't be able to work on building sites. | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
have done a lot of jobs in my life. Would you expect somebody in their | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
mid-70s still to be working on huge big projects on the City as steel | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
workers? Somebody in their mid-70s today might hope to retire at 75 or | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
whatever. I'm saying the way the demographics are going, we will be | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
living much longer than 70, into the 80s and 90s t makes sense to | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
raise the retirement age. It is about harmony between what Ruth | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
seems to be suggesting, and the more likelihood of | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
intergenerational conflict and resentment, if something's not done | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
about this, do you believe that? don't believe particularly in the | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
intergenerational conflict, we will go in that direction if we do | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
ridiculous things. I take the question of social care. There is a | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
whole lot of ideas going around now, that some how society must pay for | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
the old age of people, not just the health of people, but the general | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
caring for people in old age. Can you imagine how we could possibly | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
afford that. Why should people who benefit from house price rises not | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
have to sell their houses to fund their old age. I can't see that. | :19:03. | :19:10. | |
Dot? The whole point about social care, and healthcare, is that it is | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
possible to have a national care system, like the NHS, paid for | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
through, just 1.5p in the pound on tax. Social care? Let me make this | :19:20. | :19:28. | |
point, what is left out of the picture completely, the Women's | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
Royal Voluntary Service did a survey, which is generally accepted | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
as a correct survey that shows, that the benefit to the state of | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
pensioners volunteering, caring and the work that they do, is actually | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
�40 billion a year. That is a huge A money, Ruth Porter. It is a huge | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
amount of money. Obviously retired people make a huge contribution. | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
Which can't reduce everything down to some monetary value. That's what | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
you are doing. I think actually it is about having decent | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
relationships within families. I think by making it monetary you | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
reduce it, in the same way that you take care of elderly relatives. | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
Delhi, amid heavy police presence, and the on going protests, suspects | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
in the case of a fatal gang rape of a 23-year-old student in a moving | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
bus in New Delhi appeared in court. Thousands have demanded justice for | :20:23. | :20:31. | |
the young woman whose death shocked India, and which prompts anguish | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
soul--- anguished soul-searching in a country where violence against | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
women goes further than this case. The widespread killing of female | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
foetuses is well known. But less well known is trafficking of young | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
women to make up for the shortages. We have a World Service | :20:49. | :20:59. | |
:20:59. | :21:00. | ||
Investigation. Calcutta, the capital of West | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
Bengal, choking roads and bustling markets, where young women face a | :21:05. | :21:12. | |
growing threat. This girl was 15, when two years ago neighbourhood | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
boys invited her to a local fair. There someone, a stranger, offered | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
her a soft drink. The next thing she remembers is waking up on a | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
train. A day later, she found herself in a brothel, in Delhi. | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
Where for seven months every day she was raped by countless | :21:30. | :21:40. | |
:21:40. | :22:13. | ||
Her mother finally tracked her down, and, with the help of police, | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
rescued her. She got her daughter back, but not the life she has | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
worked so hard to build. Neighbours don't talk to them any more. Their | :22:21. | :22:31. | |
:22:31. | :22:54. | ||
house has been stoned, and those Every year tens of thousands of | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
girls across India are either tricked or forced into making a | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
journey that changes their lives forever. Many, like the young woman, | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
come through this Calcutta train station. This place is just | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
overwhelming. It is so easy to become invisible in this crowd. I | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
couldn't tell you whether a man I just passed is father who is | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
travelling with his daughter, or a trafficker who is transporting his | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
victim. What I can tell you, is that right at this moment, at this | :23:28. | :23:37. | |
very station, there are girls who have been sold. Police sources tell | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
us this train alone carries dozens of trafficking victims every day. | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
Some are as young as ten. It took us weeks, but finally we managed to | :23:47. | :23:57. | |
:23:57. | :24:06. | ||
He tells me he traffics, an average, 200 girls a year, and makes around | :24:06. | :24:16. | |
:24:16. | :24:50. | ||
$1,000 on each. Most of them are 12, The trafficker also said that, | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
while he still pays local politicians and individual | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
policemen for protection, the central Government's recent | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
awareness campaign has made his operation more difficult. And at | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
the police headquarters in Calcutta, they deny charges of any | :25:06. | :25:14. | |
involvement. This is one of the allegations which is brought | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
against us as police. The police is doing very, very well in this field | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
of human traffics. The allegation of corruption against police is | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
very negligible. The fight is daily on. Activists say that at the | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
police level things have improved. But change is slow. Every police | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
station in India is now supposed to have anti-trafficking police | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
officers, and at district levels they have even set up anti- | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
trafficking unit. That looks good on paper, have a look at the | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
reality of India's fight against one of its greatest organised crime | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
networks. This is the centre of anti-trafficking activity for the | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
whole of West Bengal. Two computers, a few phones, and | :26:03. | :26:10. | |
thousands of cases. This detective and her small team are overwhelmed. | :26:10. | :26:17. | |
We are trying to solve this problem, how do I get more man power, some | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
digital support, some other support, Xerox machine, some telephones, | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
laptop, we need those. Traditionally there is dark and | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
secretive trade of humans, which has been driven by prostitution, | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
and more recently, demand for domestic workers among India's | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
growing middle-class. But that is changing. | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
We travelled across the country to northern India, where there is a | :26:45. | :26:55. | |
:26:55. | :27:07. | ||
new and growing market for brides. This is a man's world, the men of | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
this town are famous for being strong, fit and single. Fortunate | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
to be born in one of India's wealthiest states, fortunate, | :27:17. | :27:25. | |
perhaps, to be born at all. One estimate suggests that ten million | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
girl foetuses have been aborted in India in the last two decades. The | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
UN says it is a problem of genocide proportions. The Indian Government | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
disputes these estimates. But the reality of life in Haryana is hard | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
to argue with. It is such a social issue that every house is facing | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
this problem. Every house is facing that there are young boys who are | :27:52. | :28:02. | |
:28:02. | :28:02. | ||
not getting girls. And when you talk to them, they are frustrated. | :28:02. | :28:10. | |
Rishi Kant took me to see how this frustration fuels organised crime. | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
There is a minor child, she has been traffiked, we will go and see | :28:16. | :28:23. | |
and do the raid. If the girl is there we will do the rescue | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
operation. So we're going to have your group, as well as the police | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
from Bengal, and police from Haryana, working together to rescue | :28:32. | :28:42. | |
this 14-year-old. Exactly. You know where she is? The family knows. | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
Ruksana, the girl, is at home when we enter. But minutes later, the | :28:47. | :28:57. | |
:28:57. | :29:14. | ||
Before she lets her go, she takes out the earrings she had given her. | :29:14. | :29:22. | |
As police lead her away, she follows. Rishi Kant orders her out | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
of the police car, the trafficker and the victim have to be separated, | :29:26. | :29:36. | |
:29:36. | :29:38. | ||
it's the law, he says. But she is not scared of me, she is screaming. | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
A couple of hours later, at a police station, she is still | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
insisting she has done nothing wrong. We don't have enough girls | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
and many people are buying girls from Bengal, she cries. She swears | :29:50. | :29:59. | |
she had treated her well. But in the car outside, Ruksana tells the | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
police a different story. She talks about daily humiliation, beatings, | :30:04. | :30:11. | |
rape. Her father listens, overwhelmed. Soon he will be able | :30:11. | :30:18. | |
to take his daughter home. This is incredible, the whole village is | :30:19. | :30:26. | |
basically following us to Ruksana home, I'm sure this is more | :30:26. | :30:36. | |
:30:36. | :30:36. | ||
attention than she's used to. She is still haunted by memories of | :30:36. | :30:46. | |
:30:46. | :31:13. | ||
She was never even allowed outside. She doesn't want to talk about the | :31:14. | :31:23. | |
:31:24. | :31:36. | ||
rape. Her parents are worried about She just wants to be at home, she | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
told me. But with so much attention, so much gossip, Rishi tells the | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
parents it is not safe for her to stay. Everything is at stake, her | :31:46. | :31:53. | |
life, her identity, her marriage, and her image in the society. | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
Everything is lost. And if you don't get any support from the | :31:58. | :32:06. | |
state, the administration, that's ten-times more problematic. This is | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
probably where Ruksan will end up, at least for the time being. This | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
private shelter in Calcutta is the best in the state. It is home to | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
150 girls. Here too they tell us they have noticed that the number | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
of girls sold into marriage is on the rise. And the real struggle, | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
activists say, is to get politicians on side. They are not | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
interested, you know, because you know why, do we have to still go | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
and tell them this is happening in our country. When so many girls are | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
dying, when so many girls are being traffiked, and you know, we are not | :32:38. | :32:48. | |
:32:48. | :32:58. | ||
talking about hundreds, we are But attitudes here show no sign of | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
changing. In a village in Haryana, we visited a meeting of influential | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
local elders, even before the notorious Delhi rape case, they | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
came to discuss the worrying rise in rapes in Haryana. Here is how | :33:13. | :33:23. | |
:33:23. | :33:51. | ||
one of them explained the problem These women don't get much of a | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
choice. This is a community support centre for victims of trafficking, | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
some of them have settled here, some don't leave because they are | :34:00. | :34:07. | |
too ashamed to go back. All are expected to produce sons. 25-year- | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
old Rupa was traffiked from Bihar, she says she was forced to have two | :34:12. | :34:22. | |
:34:22. | :34:36. | ||
abortions until she finally gave Fuelled by poverty, corruption, and | :34:36. | :34:45. | |
attitudes towards women, in India, this cycle of abuse carries on. | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
Earlier today in Mumbai, we filmed a veteran Indian act stress, who is | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
also a prominent -- actress, who is also a prominent women's activist | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
and former member of the Upper House in parliament. I began by ask | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
She Lay Down Deep Beneath the Sea believed that India did not love | :35:03. | :35:11. | |
its -- by asking if she believed that India did not love its girl | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
children? It comes from the complication of being a complex | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
society. So it is with the position of women. On the one hand we have | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
had a woman President and Prime Minister, several women are in top | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
positions in politics and business and the arts and all of that, but | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
on the other hand, female foeticide is also being practised. It is, | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
essentially, a country living in contradictions and trying to come | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
to terms with it. Having said that, without any doubt. India is a | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
patriarchal society, and we have internalised a patriarchal mind set | :35:45. | :35:51. | |
in which the girl child is not given the value that she deserves. | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
The victim of December's gang rape was a middle-class student living | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
in the capital city, where the majority of the country live | :35:59. | :36:08. | |
poverty striken and voiceless. I asked her if she believed India's | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
lingering caste system was an issue in the rape? There are problems in | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
the rural areas where certain women where nobody pays the attention to | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
them. This was a case that was given tremendous visibility, and | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
people came to know the horror that is associated with rape. Somewhere | :36:27. | :36:35. | |
the deadening of our senses has really been brought into sharp | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
position. I think it is about time something like this happened, and | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
the outrage of complete demand for justice became central to our | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
system. The week since the rape has seen an extraordinary outpouring of | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
public anger in India, much of it directed at the police. The fact is, | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
that the police have internalised the same patriarchal mind set, and | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
what happens is most often girls do not even go to register cases of | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
rape, or trafficking, for fear that they are really going to be treated | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
to a verbal abuse amounting to a second rape. Because of the | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
insensitivity of the police, and the tendency to some how blame the | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
victim for having invited the rape. And that is a shocking state of | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
affairs, because it is not enough to say they have internalised their | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
mind set, because when they occupy a chair, and they wear a uniform, | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
then there has to be a process of training in which they are | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
disabused from the horrible values they have. She has made her name as | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
a star of more than 100 Bollywood firms over four decades, did she | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
believe the industry was responsible for suggesting that in | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
terms of women and sex, "no" didn't necessarily always mean no. We have | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
to tread careful grounds here. Because to blame Bollywood for | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
everything that is wrong in society would be factitious, and not true. | :37:59. | :38:05. | |
I think there is definitely a churning within sections of the | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
film industry, of the Hindi film industry, where they are indulging | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
in some amount of self-reflection and analysis. But they are his tent | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
to verbalise what they feel, for fear of being appropriated by the | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
moral brigade. We cannot have a situation where this gives an | :38:22. | :38:28. | |
opportunity to the moral brigade to stand waving their flags and saying | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
women are responsible because they are wearing short skirts or they | :38:32. | :38:38. | |
are being emancipated or what have you. | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
I think, for the film industry, we have to understand that the | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
business of cinema is about images. And when you show fragmented images | :38:46. | :38:56. | |
:38:56. | :38:57. | ||
of a woman's body, she really loses all autonomy it commodifies herself. | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
However, I do want to insist that celebration of senuality is welcome, | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
and something that is healthy. But there is a thin line between | :39:07. | :39:17. | |
:39:17. | :39:20. | ||
celebration of sexuality and a surrender to the male gaze. We have | :39:20. | :39:27. | |
come a long way from films made in the 1960s where, "I will remain | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
silent", was considered a virtue. We have seen more visibly working | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
women in India. There is still a lot left to be desired, it is for | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
us to stand up, and also, for female actors to say they demand | :39:40. | :39:47. | |
more. Could the student's gang rape and | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
murder prove a turning point in the way India's women are treated. | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
Could it prove a watershed for women's rights? I think the outrage | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
has been so universal, and so persistent, that I will be very | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
surprised if there is no change at all. But ultimately what we are | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
dealing with is a mind set change, a societal, mind set change, which, | :40:10. | :40:19. | |
:40:20. | :40:20. | ||
as you know, takes a very, very long time. There is a bit of skill | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
in handling a radio chat show, the witty one-liner, a bit of flirting | :40:24. | :40:31. | |
and being kind to granny, Terry Wogan, and Jonathan Ross spring to | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
mind. But Nick Clegg? For coalition spin doctors, for some reason, they | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
have decided he could make it big on the airwaves, he has a lot to | :40:39. | :40:45. | |
live up to. Time to call in Steve Smith? | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
Hello Newsnight? What you mean now, on now? | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
You may have heard about the BBC's state-of-the-art new HQ in central | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
London. This is where we maintain our all-important links with our | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
audience. Would you mind one second? | :41:05. | :41:12. | |
Hello Newsnight? Yes. No. The vital connection, talking in | :41:12. | :41:19. | |
real time, to real people, politicians want it too. Nick Clegg | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
has become the first cabinet minister to launch what is promised | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
to be a regular weekly phone-in, on London's LBC Radio. What support is | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
the Government going to be able to offer families and couples who are | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
being forced to leave their jobs within the army or other forces, | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
jobs within the ministry. Stay on the line, this is to do with the | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
military review, and many jobs have been shed, some on the frontline. | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
As you know better than I do, we have been upfront with you and your | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
husband, and said because defence expenditure was so mishandled in | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
the past, we have to bring things down to a level which we can | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
properly support. There isn't that uncertainty. I honestly don't think | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
it does any harm to the reputation of politics in general for a | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
politician to make himself accessible. It is a big commitment | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
for him. Yes, I think in a newsy week, in a week with a lot of | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
political news, I might listen, and I might even ring up. Let us know | :42:19. | :42:29. | |
:42:29. | :42:31. | ||
when you do. This is the Newsnight Awards Line, if you think we | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
deserve...hello...$$NEWLINE # Hey how you doing | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
Politicians and their handlers, believe there is nothing like | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
direct contact with the great British public. Good morning Mr | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
Major. Good morning. I would like to know why I should vote Tory? | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
They are talking straight to voters, and they are being seen, or at | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
least heard, to do so, but it doesn't always end well. Someone | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
has just handed me the tape, let's play it and see if we can hear it. | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
You should never have put me with that woman, whose idea that was? It | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
is just ridiculous. That Gordon Brown bigot-gate moment, all | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
triggered by contact with maybe of the public. It was played back on | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
my show, and he didn't know it was filmed. It was a catastrophic for | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
Brown and it happened in the middle of an election. It takes you back | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
to all the other election moments, how often it is the member of the | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
public who changes the weather. The all-time classic was a woman called | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
Diana Gould. Why, when the Argentinian battleship, was outside | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
the exclusion zone, and actually sailing away from the Falklands, | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
why did you give the orders to sink it? It was not sailing away the | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
Falklands, it was an area which was a danger to our ships. And it | :43:55. | :44:01. | |
stopped the then Prime Minister in her tracks. | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
One second, hang on? Hello. Hello Jeremy, I wondered why we kept this | :44:07. | :44:15. | |
phone. Direct dialogue with the people is a hallmark of strong men | :44:15. | :44:22. | |
among world leaders. Including Chavez of Venezuela. And Russia's | :44:22. | :44:32. | |
:44:32. | :44:32. | ||
Vladimir Putin. I'm wondering are you a man of the people, and have | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
you worn a onesie? From your constituency, have you ever worn a | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
onesie? I was actually given a big, green onesie in Sheffield, which I | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
have kept in its packaging, I haven't worn it yet. Actually, | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
Newsnight imagined that look last month. This programme's meaningless | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
if it doesn't set the agenda. What's he got to lose. Everybody | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
hates him, everybody thinks he's like the daft lad. This morning he | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
showed, you know, quite a few sparks of humour. How many stars | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
would you give it? As a show four stars. That is pretty good? Yes, I | :45:10. | :45:20. | |
:45:20. | :45:20. | ||
would. Hi Kirsty. It's going well. What's that? Get off? | :45:20. | :45:30. | |
:45:30. | :45:54. | ||
Nuisance caller. Figures out today show there are | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
still 13,000 black and white television licenses in the UK, so | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
tonight's farewell is tailored especially for viewers watching | :46:02. | :46:12. | |
:46:12. | :46:39. | ||
tonight in glorious monochrome, Colder weather on the way for the | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
UK in the next few days. Friday quite a chilly affair, and a rather | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
grey one for many of us as well. The best of any sunshine likely | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
across Wales in the south west during the early part of the day. | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
Elsewhere it is a mixture of low clouds and outbreaks of rain and | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
stubborn patches of mist and fog. And wintery across the hills of the | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
north-east of England, maybe the bit of sleet mixed in with the | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
showers across East Anglia. For the south west and Wales, after the | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
sunshine first thing, more cloud piling in come the afternoon, that | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
will have a tendency to bring increasingly heavy showers as the | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
afternoon progresses. Perhaps there is brightness to be found across | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
the likes of Devon and Dorset, and up into the Welsh marshes and the | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
afternoon. For Northern Ireland a dreary day, a foggy start making | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
way to a foggy afternoon, with outbreaks of rain. In the far north | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
of Scotland it may brighten during the afternoon. Elsewhere cloud | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
around or misty and murky weather. For the weekend, the prospects turn | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
colder still, the threat of wintery showers across eastern Scotland and | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
the north-east of England. Further south, an area of low pressure | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
pushing in, making for a bit of a forecasting headache for us, it | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
looks like it will bring heavy rain to the southern most counties of | :47:51. | :47:55. |