Browse content similar to 23/01/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight the Prime Minister dazzled his party with his speech on Europe. | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
Is he selling a false prospectus? When we have negotiated add new | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
settlement, we will give the British people a referendum, with a | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
very simple in or out choice, to stay in the European Union, on | :00:29. | :00:37. | |
these new terms, or to come out all together. It will be an in-out | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
referendum. And what of Labour, Ed Miliband ruled out a referendum, | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
and hey pres toe, an hour later, it was all change. Was this UKIP's big | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
day, or has David Cameron shot their fox. We will speak to Nigel | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
Farage, to the Europe Minister and the Liberal Democrats and Labour. | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
The Czech calm pass dor gives us an EU -- ambassador gives us an EU | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
view. Immigration is the perceived | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
problem with Europe, the focus now is on Romanians, they get the right | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
to come here at the end of the year. Newsnight has been to Portsmouth | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
where there are real concerns that a new influx could push local | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
resources over the edge. There is not enough room for anybody else, | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
basically. That's it, they should put a stop to it. Whatever Brussels | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
thinks, we ain't got enough room. Also tonight, the public Health | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
Minister has suggested you can tell a child's background from how obese | :01:34. | :01:44. | |
:01:44. | :01:48. | ||
they are, with junk food rife amongst the poor, is she right? | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
There was an air of general excitement amongst Conservatives | :01:52. | :01:59. | |
today, that their leader had delivered a speech they could all | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
coalesce around. The Prime Minister wants a new European treaty based | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
on five principle, based on his five principle. | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
He would put the deal to a country in a referendum. Asking in or out | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
on EU membership. We will be assessing his chances of | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
success throughout the programme tonight W my guests, but first, a | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
quick reaction. First of all, the Europe Minister, David Lidlington, | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
have you hooverered up, what was it David Cameron called UKIP, the | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
"fruitcakes loan ies and closet racists" their votes with today's | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
announcement? The Conservative Party will be happy with today's | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
speech, but more importantly I think there will be a real sigh of | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
relief in the country that there they will get the final say. | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
Frankly, there has been a lot of poison that has got into the debate | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
about the merits of our European membership. Because people have | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
felt they are not being trusted to have the final say. That's taken | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
out of it now, we can have a proper debate on the merit. I think we can | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
win that debate for a strong yes vote. What about the Shadow Europe | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
Minister, people know now if they want to vote on Europe there is no | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
point in voting on Europe, Emma Reynolds? We think at a time of | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
great economic difficulty it is wrong to cast a cloud of | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
uncertainty over inward investment over four years. British business | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
are saying the same thing. referendum? We have said today we | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
are against a referendum, and also planning a referendum at an abitary | :03:27. | :03:34. | |
time in the future. We will talk about this, Ming Campbell is this a | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
deal-breaker for future coalitions, that you would never do a deal with | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
Conservatives on an in-out referendum? That is a long way down | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
the track. Just as the referendum is a long way down the track. One | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
thing that is certain we are about to have a period of four or five | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
years of unprecedented constitutional and economic | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
uncertainty. How that can be conceived to be in the interests of | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
this country, I simply cannot imagine. Nigel Farage, surely it is | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
game over for UKIP, you got what you wanted, an in-out referendum, a | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
discussion on Europe. You are completely redundant? You are trite | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
say one thing, it has been a great -- Right to say one thing. It has | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
been a great victory for us. Debate whrooing Britain should leave the | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
EU is a genie out of the bottle that won't come back. We will | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
discuss all that later, but today's speech from David Cameron has been | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
six months in the planning, rescheduled several times, and no | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
doubt seen countless drafts. Did the Prime Minister see what was his | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
central goal. Tonight the Conservative Party unite around him, | :04:35. | :04:44. | |
- to unite the Conservative Party around him and -- We were expecting | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
a rushed sketch from the Prime Minister, as he tried to fill a | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
difficult political void. Instead we got a carefully drawn | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
philosophical vision. What David Cameron thinks Europe should be. | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
This morning too we got a primary coloured rendering of the British | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
political scene. How can we sensibly answer the question, "in | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
or out", without being able to answer the most basic question, | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
what is it exactly that we are choosing to be in or out of? The | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
European Union, that emerges from the eurozone crisis, is going to be | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
a very different body. It will be transformed, perhaps beyond | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
recognition, by the measures needed to save the eurozone. We need to | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
allow some time for that to happen, and help shape the future of the | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
European Union. So when the choice comes, it will be a real one. A | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
real choice between leaving, or being part of a new settlement in | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
which Britain shapes and respects the rules of the single market. | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
David Cameron managed to tread that tight rope between Europhobia and | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
eurofillia, between a European audience and a domestic audience, | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
he took his euro-sceptics to theering like a man on a wie, on a | :05:57. | :06:05. | |
journey towards -- tottering like man on a wire to almost sounding | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
like Tony Blair, once he had renegotiated he said he would | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
campaign for a yes vote. I think we can achieve after negotiation to a | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
situation where Britain can be comfortable, and all our countries | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
can thrive. When that referendum comes, let me say now that if we | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
can negotiate such an arrangement, I will campaign for it with all my | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
heart and all my soul. Within the day, the German | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
Chancellor, Angela Merkel, said she would work for a deal with David | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
Cameron, that she was prepared to talk about British wishes, but she | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
cautioned that Britain's demands were one of many. How did he win | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
over Merkel and win over euro- sceptic, it is the old Irish joke, | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
"I wouldn't start from here", there was five principles, the return to | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
power for member states, that he wanted progress on, it was progress | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
on principles rather than particulars before he put it to the | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
British people, as he put it. The key question was that David Cameron | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
couldn't negotiate successful, would he still vote yes in the | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
referendum? Who goes into a negotiation hoping and expect to go | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
fail. That might be the approach you take, it is not my approach. I | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
go into a negotiation hoping and believing and expecting to succeed, | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
and for all the reasons I have given today, I think there's every | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
chance of success. If we went to the situation where you wanted a | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
British settlement, treaty change would be really difficult. But it | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
could, for example, get a declaration on the principle that | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
says things should be done at a member-state level wherever | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
possible. Maybe he could get an informal veto on strategic | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
interests in the financial sector. He could maybe get the repeal of | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
some legislation, something that bothers really most of the | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
Conservative Party with the Working Time Directive. Most of this could | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
be done without treaty change. Today is possibly the best day the | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
Prime Minister will have on Europe for quite a while, because the road | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
ahead will not be easy. In particular in his speech he sets | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
out a date by which the referendum has to have happened, the middle of | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
the next parliament. He did this to please his euro-sceptic, but he | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
also did it knowing that many around him worry that timetable is | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
going to be very tight to meet. think it will be a hard slog, there | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
is a lot of work involved in this. There is a lot of work building | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
alliances, building friendships, making sure we bring other people | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
in. The great thing we have working with us is the fact that the EU now | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
is in a state of flux. There is this process of integration going | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
on, where the eurozone countries are going to integrate much more, | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
politically and economically, Britain can't be a member of that | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
integrated block, and nor are most of the non-eurozone members. There | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
needs to be a new type of relationship. There is a challenge | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
of getting all the details to the British electorate before 2019, we | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
have a huge review of cost and benefits of the EU membership, that | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
won't finish until the end of 2014, it will be difficult to formulate a | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
position before the British elections. The second thing is we | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
only go for the British solution if the pan-European one fails. They | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
are not really due to start that until 2015 at the earliest, so | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
knowing what we will be voting on in the elections, in terms of a | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
Conservative Party policy at the moment, is a little bit unclear. | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
Four hours after the Prime Minister's speech, the Labour | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
leader clarified his own position, that he opposed David Cameron's | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
referendum. The most basic question of all, is do you want a | :09:29. | :09:37. | |
referendum? I do, does he? position is no, we don't want an | :09:37. | :09:44. | |
in-out referendum. But let me finish. (shouting) my position is | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
precisely the same as his position, when we voted together, yeah, when | :09:49. | :09:57. | |
we voted together in October 2011 against an in-out referendum. My | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
position hasn't changed, it's his position that's changed Mr Speaker. | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
And here is the truth, six months of planning a speech on a | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
referendum, he can't even tell us whether it is a yes or a no. | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
Over the coming months and years, the Conservatives will try to paint | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
Ed Miliband as an out-of-touch dweller of primrose hill, at odds | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
with the British public. Labour will try to paint David Cameron as | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
an out-of-touch twel dweller of Middle England, out-of-touch with | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
big business. For David Cameron it is a question of R & R, | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
renegotiation and referendum, for Ed Miliband it will be the reRs, | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
reform and reject that referendum. But before we get to the parliament, | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
what will be the effect Europe will have on this parliament, there were | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
signs that the Liberal Democrats in this parliament would not endorse | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
David Cameron's pledge to put the draft legislation of the referendum | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
down before 2015. In a private meeting civil servants were told | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
they were not allowed to be involved in drafting the | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
legislation, since Liberal Democrats would not allow it to be | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
a coalition bill. With the Prime Minister's speech today, it was | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
confirmed that the issue of Europe could dominate the parliament, and | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
it could end up curtailing this one. Before we hear from the politicians | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
again, we went back to some of those who we talked to on Newsnight | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
recently, about how Britain's relationship with Europe affects | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
their lives, to find out what they made of the Prime Minister's speech. | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
My name is Peter Carroll, I'm a part-owner of a small-to-medium | :11:32. | :11:41. | |
sized business, operating in road freight in the UK and across Europe | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
My first reaction was do the politicians know how high the | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
stakes are. With half our exports going to Europe, if we get it wrong, | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
we could be a Third World economy within ten years. The stakes are | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
enormous. The thing we want is fairness. If drivers based in | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
Britain work to the same level of discipline and control and | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
regulation as they do in other countries, at least it's fair. What | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
we would be worried about, is that you may end up in a situation where | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
different countries are working to different drivers' hours rules, | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
different safety standards on vehicles, different employment | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
regulation, and there is a danger, then, that it is not fair and we | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
can't compete. It feels to us in the business community, sometimes, | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
as if the politicians are constantly finding something else | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
to tackle, some other issue, whether it be gay marriage, Europe, | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
NHS reorganisations, all very important subjects and issues, but | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
there is one thing more important at the moment than all of those, it | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
is this, concentrate 100% on getting the UK economy growing. | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
Because unless we have a growing economy, we're going nowhere. | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
My name is Ben Molyneux a junior doctor in the final year of my | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
training gaised in London. Listening to the speech yesterday, | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
Mr Cameron referenced the hours junior doctors can work, and the | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
fact that the EU shouldn't set the hours that doctors should work in | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
the UK. I would disagree, we have gone from an average of 100 hours | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
to 48 hours a week. What that has meant is improvment to patient | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
safety, tired doctors and people make mistakes. In my field of work | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
I can't afford to be tired and make a mistake as a result. I think the | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
European Working Time Directive has been a really positive thing for | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
patients and doctors. What I want to know is will my training be | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
high-quality, will the hours I do be safe, will my patients be cared | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
for adequately, if David Cameron can do something outside of Europe | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
that can deliver that, that's OK. I'm Guy Smith, I'm a farmer from | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
east Essex, I come from a 1,000- acre mixed farming. He's right to | :13:51. | :13:58. | |
bring the issue to a head. I don't like this half in half out never, | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
Neverland we seem to be in, we need to make our mind up if we are in or | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
not. As a father I get access to continental markets which is | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
important, I receive �130,000 worth of support. But the point is, I'm | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
happy to have that level of support reduced, as long it is reduced | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
multilaterally across Europe. As long as the playing field stays | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
level, so I get a low-level of support, or no support, and so does | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
my equivalent in France, or Poland or Germany, then I'm convinced as a | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
British farmer I can compete. On a purely personal level my reaction | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
to the European Union is to remember that my grandfather died | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
on the beaches of Malta, my uncles died on the beaches of Normandy, my | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
great uncle died on the field of Flanders, and those men I never met, | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
their ghosts probably tell me that the stability and prosperity that | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
the European Union has contributed to is worth hanging on to. Let's | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
talk about all of this, our guests are the Europe Minister, David | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
Lidlington, the UKIP lead e Nigel Farage, Shadow Europe Minister, | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
Emma Reynolds, and the Lib Dem former leader, Ming Campbell. | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
David Lidlington, first of all, David Cameron will say it is | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
successful whatever happens, isn't he? What he's going into, the very | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
start of a negotiation, is confident in his approach. Spelled | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
out today a vision, not just for the Conservative Party or Britain, | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
but of the challenges that Europe as a whole needs to face up to, | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
competitiveness, democratic accountability, and the principle | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
that is should govern how Europe as a whole addresses those. In many | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
ways he used very emotive language, some of it was very Europhile and | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
so forth, you can set out a vision and dream, but unpicking a lot of | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
these treaty negotiations, unpicking a lot of the different | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
elements are quite a different thing, that is not just about | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
Britain, is it? It is not just about Britain. But what your | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
question, I think, omits, is the fact that Europe is already | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
undergoing a process of change, that is driven in large part by the | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
pressure on those of our friends who are in the single currency, to | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
integrate much more closely. How do you make that fair to those who are | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
out as well as those who are in. It is driven by the need to respond to | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
the challenge of Asia and Latin America. If Europe doesn't raise | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
its game in competitiveness, every European country will struggle in | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
the future. Let's set out the time scale, what he was saying in his | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
speech is in the next three years in reshaping that you actually want | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
from Europe, that is, of course, without your coalition partners | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
here taking part in any of this. You are going to spend the next | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
three years reshaping it t then you are going to go to the country with | :16:41. | :16:48. | |
a mandate for renegotiation? First of all. Where is the complete meat | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
on the bone? There won't be three years of standing still, although | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
Ming Campbell and I don't agree on European matters, we have a | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
coalition agreement where week by week we are delivering on the | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
process of European reform, that doesn't require treaty change, that | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
is under way on things like banking union, and fisheries. We will make | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
clear as a Conservative Party, certainly before people come to | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
vote at the next general election. No red lines. What it is we will be | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
putting to the people at the general election, as the position | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
that a Conservative Government, if elected with a majority, will take | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
into the treaty negotiations, which I would be expected to take place | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
early in the next parliament. have the situation where you are | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
doing this big review of competences, as it is called, which | :17:32. | :17:39. | |
runs sem meser by sem meser, d smeser by smeser running the whole | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
gamit. You have that coming up as a report card. Will that be the basis | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
on which you are going to call for a change? It will be very important | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
as a source of evidence to inform the evidence and detainment for | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
example, I will want to look at what business and business | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
organisations say in their evidence, these are the things we like and | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
want to keep in European negotiations, these are the things | :18:01. | :18:08. | |
we want to change. In the next three years you will go to the | :18:08. | :18:15. | |
European Summits as a coalition. And you will be ripping apart the | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
Liberal Democrats, what will be going on? I have said, as a | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
coalition we work in accordance with the coalition agreement. That | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
includes a commitment to European reform, in which Conservative and | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
Lib Dem ministers, alike, have been able to work very constructively | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
together and get good results. know you didn't want to discuss | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
this with the others, I will go straight to Ming Campbell, how will | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
you operate in the next three years when David Cameron appears to be | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
questioning, and his ministers, questioning every single aspect of | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
Europe? You could say the general election started here today. | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
Everyone knows, by the time the general election comes, then the | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
two parties will be separate, with separate manifestos. How can you | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
present a united front on Europe in the next three years? With great | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
difficulty is the answer to your question. Because for the next two | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
or three years, every piece of legislation, every speech, every | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
decision made will be seen through the prism of the referendum. It is | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
just like Scotland. Where exactly the same thing has happened. Now | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
that creates a degree of uncertainty, which, for example, if | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
you are considering making a large scale investment in the United | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
Kingdom, foreign investors will say there is too much uncertainty | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
involved here. Now we understand that Angela Merkel has said she's | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
willing to do a deal. This is a story in the Telegraph, she hints | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
at a deal for Cameron? What sort of deal. And if it is not good enough, | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
will David Cameron come back in due course come back and say vote no in | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
the reference DUP, because -- referendum, because I have failed | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
to achieve what I set out to achieve. Ming Campbell, begin you | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
look back at the reshuffle and you realise there is not a single Lib | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
Dem in the Foreign Office, was it the grand plan? I don't think it | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
was, I have spoken to Nick Clegg about this, he knows my view, it is | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
not something I would do for a whole variety of reasons. But that | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
doesn't stop us having a clear view that what the Prime Minister has | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
introduced today is wholly contrary to the interests of the country, it | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
is more in the interests of the Conservative Party than the country, | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
it is more about UKIP than the UK. Let's talk about UKIP for a moment, | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
Nigel Farage, do you think there will be a pact at the next election | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
with Tories who have specifically said they will vote out the | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
referendum? Watching the Prime Minister, watching William Hague | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
and the Europe Minister, the more I see of them today the less I trust | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
them. This is a deliberate tactic to kick the can down the road for | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
five years or more. What they have done is a five-year campaign to | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
keep us in. I don't think there is an intention to have a serious | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
European debate, they want to close it down, ahead of the next election, | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
thinking we will go away. We are not, and I think the prospects of | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
us doing a deal with David Cameron are very unlikely. No deal with | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
David Cameron, I'm asking would you do a deal with Tories who say they | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
will vote for an out on the referendum? That is not on my | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
agenda at the moment. On my agenda are the big county councils this | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
year, and a big European election in 2014. You said before the speech | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
there would be a great many calls, you would take them, from | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
disgruntled Conservatives after the speech, has your phone been | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
ringing? I think he has done enough to keep them on side. So your phone | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
hasn't rung? He has done enough. Were there any calls? I answered it | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
twice, he has done enough to keep the euro-sceptics on his | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
backbenches satisfied for the moment. Within a few weeks we will | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
talk about the Romanian accession, and this issue hasn't gone away. | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
will come to that later in the programme. If David Cameron has | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
been speeching for the -- preparing for the speech for six months, Ed | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
Miliband knows it has been coming for six months, when he stood at | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
the despatch box, he didn't get it right did he? We have had a | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
consistent position for a year. I was standing beside the Reverend | :22:05. | :22:13. | |
minister voting no to an in-out referendum. Douglas Alexander to h | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
to temper it later that there wouldn't be an in-out referendum, | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
and saying they weren't definitely against it? Our position is | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
consistent and clear, we are not in favour of an in-out referendum, but | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
you can never say never in foreign affairs. It could be that there is | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
a situation in the future. But we will if there is a transfer of | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
powers. Let's stick with that, this is yet another position, what you | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
are saying now, is that never say never in politics. Again Labour | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
says there is no red lines, then, actually, what you are telling the | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
viewers tonight is it is possible that Labour could go for an in-out | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
referendum, within the next five years, it is possible? We are not | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
planning to promise an in-out referendum at an abitary point in | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
the future. I think the question is, why 2017/2018? Because the last | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
time we had treaty change in the European Union it took a hell of a | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
lot longer than that. We don't know the Liberal Democrats' position | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
definitely on that yet? Every re- election they promise a referendum | :23:13. | :23:23. | |
:23:23. | :23:23. | ||
and they all break it. Hang on, hang on. Do you support an in-out | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
referendum? Our position is, if there is any movement of powers | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
from Westminster to Brussels, then we will put that to the keep in a | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
referendum. It is perfectly straight forward and clear. It is | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
what the Conservatives signed up to in 2010. You might be the only | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
party that goes into the next election not promising a referendum | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
of some sort on future European membership? We have also said we | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
would not repeal that legislation, there would be a referendum if | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
there was a transfer of power from Westminster to Brussels. That is | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
clear. Nigel Farage, as somebody was saying today, that this is the | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
most powerful day for a party that doesn't have an MP? That's right. | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
We have changed the fundamental nature of the debate in this | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
country. Withdrawing from the European Union is now a respectable | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
debate, the trouble is, that all these parties, all these three | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
parties will now kol allless around trying to keep -- kol aless around | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
trying to keep us as part of the European Union, we will be only | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
people battling against. What do you make of that, that it is all a | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
nonsense, you are not serious about fundamental change, and actually | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
you can be bought off very quickly with a quick hit from Angela | :24:29. | :24:37. | |
Merkel? It is good to have early indication that is important | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
partners like Germany, the Netherlands and the Czech Republic, | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
want to get into a serious negotiation with the UK on matters | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
affecting the future of Europe. What I would say to Nigel, it is an | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
important pledge for the Prime Minister to give to hold a decisive | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
in-out referendum. By saying trust the people, it will enable a very | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
serious mature debate to take place, as my Irish counterpart has said, | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
their experience of referendum is people then focus on the content of | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
the issue. I think we will win the debate and that will be that. | :25:09. | :25:15. | |
Thank you very much indeed. In a moment, I can speak to the | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
aforemention Czech Republic's ambassador, a man who has sat in | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
quite a few EU negotiation. First, staying up late for us, in Davos is | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
Peter Sutherland, who in a checkered career has been an EU | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
Commissioner, and director of the World Trade Organisation, and now | :25:31. | :25:38. | |
non-executive chairman, he has been before, the chairman of BP. You are | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
there in Davos, David Cameron will be there tomorrow. What has been | :25:43. | :25:50. | |
the reaction to the speech today, has it been earth-shattering? | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
hardly say that I know what the overall reaction was, maybe I was | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
speaking to kindred spirits, the people I spoke to were shocked by | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
the speech that was given. It constituted a shock on a number of | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
fronts. First of all, the blunt repuddation of some of the basic | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
concepts that the European Union is about. Which is something more than | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
simply having a market. Secondly, the prolonged period of negotiation | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
of a withdrawal of competences, a repatriation of competences, which | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
are unidentified. Which is going to lead to uncertainty, at a time when | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
Europe is in the midst of a serious crisis. So I think a lot of people | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
have been some what shocked by the bluntness of what is now clearly | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
going to be an acrimonious debate. A lot of people would say, in | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
business, that debate needs to be had, afterall you are a former | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
chairman of British Petroleum, there has been a lot of disquiet in | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
business about certain of the EU rules, where people have found to | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
be hindering? Of course there are issues that people have with Europe. | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
But there is an overwhelmingly positive view, I believe in | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
business, about Britain being in Europe, and being in the European | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
Union. Of course one can argue issues on one side or another, but | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
the overall balance of account is very clearly in favour of an | :27:14. | :27:21. | |
integrated market, but more than that, a more intergreated Europe | :27:21. | :27:28. | |
integrated Europe. I don't believe there is a negative view about the | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
European Union in business, or about the future. I think many | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
business leaders would demur at an idea of an integrated Europe, they | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
may want an integrated market, but the integrated union smacks of a | :27:41. | :27:48. | |
political nature that many move back from? It depends how you | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
define it. We signed up for a greater union of the peoples of | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
Europe, that was expressly repudiated today. Most believe we | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
are on a course to an undefined destination, but greater | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
integration between the peoples of Europe and the states that | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
represent them. Most of us hope that will continue. I know this is | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
certainly kicking the can five years down the road. Just let's say | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
there is a referendum, in-out of Europe, a Conservative Government | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
has returned, there is this referendum and the British people | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
say "no" to Europe. What will the long-term consequences be, | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
politically, culturally, economically? I personally think it | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
would be very bad for the UK. But it would all depend on what | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
relationship was permitted between Great Britain after leaving the | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
European Union with what remains. The access to the market it is | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
given and so on. I think it would be very bad for Britain, but it | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
would also be very bad for Europe. Because Britain has brought a | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
liberal attitude to trade and trade negotiations, and globalisation, | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
which is positive. And it genuinely has brought an element of respect | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
for the rule of law, that was important for Europe. I think both | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
Europe and the United Kingdom would lose. How precisely they would lose | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
is impossible to foretell, without knowing the detail of the | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
negotiations to leave the European Union, if that ever happens. | :29:16. | :29:23. | |
Thank you very much for joining us. I turn to the Czech ambassador, | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
Michael Zantovsky. Ambassador, you are a more recent recruit to Europe, | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
ten years standing now from the accession states. Is David Cameron | :29:30. | :29:37. | |
leading wait for you all to follow? Do you see the need for some | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
fundamental reform, in terms of fairness, democratic involvement, | :29:41. | :29:48. | |
competition, so forth? First of all I would say that I was rather | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
reassured listening to the Prime Minister today, becauses he put it, | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
he offered a positive vision of Europe, not a negative vision. We | :29:58. | :30:04. | |
believe it would be very, very bad if the UK left the EU, and it would | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
be bad for Europe too. Do you think, do you have sympathy with his | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
position, do you think it is more about quelling unrest in the party, | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
or actually at his party, a genuine desire for reform? I believe that | :30:17. | :30:26. | |
he set out the goals that he set out were not particularly heretical, | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
they were about adaptation to the changes currently taking place in | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
the eurozone, and about equitable treatment between the eurozone | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
member countries and the non- eurozone member countries. They | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
were about competitiveness, and they were about democratic | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
accountability. That is like being for peace and motherhood. That may | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
well be the case, fundamentality, in terms of negotiating a different | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
treaty, and negotiating change, we still don't know what he actually | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
wants. If he wants to renegotiate certain treaties, look at the | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
Common Fisheries Policy, 21 years, nothing will happen in three years? | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
Absolutely. He wasn't very specific about the policies he wanted to | :31:08. | :31:16. | |
change. We take it as an opening position in a process of dialogue, | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
and possibly negotiation, and every negotiation is open-ended. Yes, | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
when the accession states, in 2003, for that to happen, other | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
Governments had had to give up powers, that was a process? It is a | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
process. I believe it is a British song that says "you can't always | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
get what you want", but on the other hand, if you try sometimes. | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
But he also, very briefly, he talked about new member states. | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
That he actually saw a widening of Europe? That is true, we believe, | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
just like the Prime Minister believes, that the European | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
integration should stay open-ended, that there should be room for new | :31:55. | :32:02. | |
members to come in, in the future, and that is an important principle | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
of the European Union. Thank you very much. | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
Rightly or wrongly our relationship with Europe has come, for many, to | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
be defined by immigration. Following the arrival of thousands | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
from accession countries over the last nine years. At the end of the | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
year, Bulgarians and Romanians get the right to live and work here. | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
How many can we expect to come. We reported from Romania on their | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
plans to travel, today we were in Portsmouth, meeting the small | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
Romanian community already established there. Portsmouth is | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
now home for thousands of new Europeans. The population grew by | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
nearly 10% in a decade. As the European Union has expanded, | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
so this island nation has had to allow people from ever-more | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
countries to cross the water and seek work here. These new | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
communities need school places for their children, they need | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
healthcare, they need housing. The impact can be felt, not only in the | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
big cities, but also the smaller ones, like Portsmouth. Many of the | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
new arrivals are Catholic, some choose to send their children here, | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
to St John's Cathedral School in the city centre. A handful of | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
Romanian children are pupils here. This man drops his daughters off | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
before heading to work. He's one of the scores of self-employed | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
Romanian taxi drivers in Portsmouth. The family share a small, rented | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
house, with two single men, but he wants to stay, for good. Here it is | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
the perfect place for me, because, for me it worked out from the | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
beginning. It is still working out. It is still OK for me. But do you | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
earn a lot of money? I don't know what you mean by a lot of money. | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
For me it is a lot of money. It is different from Romania. We are | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
making a living here, we have a decent life here. We can afford to | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
buy more clothes for our daughters, more food. He thinks some, but not | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
many Romanians will come to Britain, when restrictions are lifted. He | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
doesn't think they should be able to claim benefits. If you come in a | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
country, like coming here, at least you should work legally, pay taxes | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
for the five or ten years, then you can have some requests, OK you can | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
have maybe because now I'm short of money, that you can help me with | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
something. At least to have a period, you can't come here and the | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
next month you get benefits. Regardless of state benefits, | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
migrants can put a strain on local services. Between them, these | :34:36. | :34:42. | |
pupils speak 27 languages. In this reception class, 90% of the | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
children do not speak English at home. Hard for the teachers, they | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
have to use actions to help them learn to read. | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
It is very much a challenge, but it is also enriching for our whole | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
school community. It is a very diverse world in which we live, the | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
school reflects the diverse world that the children meet day in day | :35:00. | :35:06. | |
out, when they go in and around Portsmouth. | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
This school is now heavily oversubscribed, across Portsmouth, | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
the council has to provide new places. Unemployment in Portsmouth | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
is lower than the national average. Even with the thousands who have | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
moved here in recent years. Little housing has been built. Compared | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
with a decade ago, a higher proportion of people rent from | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
private landlords a smaller proportion own their own home. The | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
local advice centre told us many people complained that rents were | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
rising, and some said the properties were in very poor | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
condition. The 2011 census showed nearly 80,000 are you minutians | :35:45. | :35:53. | |
living in England and Wales, -- Romanians living in England and | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
Wales. Less than 400 were in Portsmouth, there are signs that | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
has grown, there is a Romanian food shop. A Romanian journalist based | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
in Britain, said she would expect Romanians to come to small cities | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
like this, but not in large numbers. They will be inclined to research | :36:11. | :36:18. | |
for themselves, and to look for smaller cities and towns to | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
establish themselves for a better quality of life. | :36:21. | :36:27. | |
Rather than the big cities like London. For now, Portsmouth council | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
say the migration's most significant affect is the shortage | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
of school places. That could change if many more people came, all in a | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
short time. But the council leader says the migration is a small price | :36:39. | :36:46. | |
to pay, for the benefit of EU membership. | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
There has become an ambition, by people who can afford it, that they | :36:49. | :36:56. | |
would like to retire somewhere that is a bit warmer than in Britain | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
today. To be in Spain or France or whatever. You can't do that if you | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
are not part of the EU. That is part of the deal. And the other | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
part of the deal is as free movement of labour, around the EU. | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
A view shared by some, not all, in a busy local pub. We can move | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
around the same as they can move here. So I don't think it will, it | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
will even itself out. There is not enough room for anybody else, | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
basically. That's it, they should put a stop to it. Whatever Brussels | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
thinks, we ain't got enough room. Talking today of Britain and Europe, | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
the Prime Minister did not mention migration. But with the referendum | :37:34. | :37:41. | |
announced, others will. The issue of growing childhood | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
obesity is something that exercises doctors, nutritionist, and recently | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
celebrity chefs. Jamie Oliver's campaign for healthy school meals | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
generally met with favourable response, though some parents and | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
children thought they were being preached at. Now the public Health | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
Minister, Anna Soubry, has claimed that where once poor children were | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
likely to resemble Oliver Twist, they were now more like Billy | :38:07. | :38:13. | |
Bunter. Her example, not mine. Anna Soubry is one of the more | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
outspoken ministers, in charge of the health sport folio, she was | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
castigating the food producering, warning them to cut fat and sugar | :38:24. | :38:32. | |
or find legislation against them, which went off the book. | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
She said poor children used to be skinny ruoints because of poor diet, | :38:36. | :38:43. | |
she says they are now likely to be fat because of the fast food. She | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
says it was heart-breaking and put parents in the firing line. Is she | :38:48. | :38:58. | |
attacking people with the least chance of helping themselves? | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
I'm joined my guests today. Harry Mount, is she right? The statistics | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
show she's definitely right, and should be praised for exposing a | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
truth, even if it is embarrassing, is true, and everyone secretly | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
knows it. Where does the fault lie? It seems she very much is pointing | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
the finger, and does it lie with the food companies, does it lie | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
with the supermarkets or parents? think it is completely personal | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
choice. I think we all know what is good and what is bad for us. George | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
Orwell made the point brilliantly, he said if liech isn't great and | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
you are worse off, if you are given the choice between a piece of apple | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
or the chocolate, you will have the chocolate, it is odder to choose | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
the apple, it is because the middle-class are brilliant at self- | :39:46. | :39:53. | |
denial and they will go for the apple. Do you agree? Obesity is | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
something affecting the whole population. 60% of adults are | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
overweight or obese, the health consequences are staggering. | :40:00. | :40:08. | |
Increase in heart disease, cancers and diabetes. The comments are | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
counter-productive, they are more politically motivated. She has | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
given the appearance of stigma advertising the poor. When she | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
should be concentrating her efforts on the real culprits, the food | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
industry, in my opinion. They have been allowed to hijack the food | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
environment, we have been oversupply of healthy foods | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
everywhere, but they are able to get away with irresponsible | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
marketing, cheap junk food to vulnerable people. Do you think | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
that is where the fault lies and politicians aren't cracking down on | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
food labelling, content and so forth of the big food giants? | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
think that is one aspect. I also think the marketing of unhealthy | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
foods as well is something that needs to be tackled. I want to say | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
one more thing that is really important. The current Government | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
policy is one of voluntary agreement with the food industry. I | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
think that is doomed today failure. It is a failed experiment, we know | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
that the food industry only care about profit. And more importantly | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
than that, what it actually is doing, it's like asking the British | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
Petroleum to encourage cycling, it won't work. You have to deal with | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
the fact that it is true, for the first time in human civilisation, | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
the richer you are, the thinner you are. And it suggests...Let's Deal | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
with the food companies, would you not be in favour of much sharper | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
legislation, you know, we have the idea of traffic lights and so forth, | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
but actually saying there is a certain amount of, a level of salt | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
above which no processed food should go at all? No I don't agree | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
with that, I think we should be allowed to eat whatever we want. | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
People know these things are bad for them it. It is very patronising | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
to suggest some how these things are being forced on them. Sometimes | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
these things are cheaper, that is the trick here for people who don't | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
have the money? It is extremely easy to make good food cheaply, a | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
pound of onions costs nothing. are saying people living in | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
horrific circumstances, with horrible places to cook, they don't | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
want to go into the kitchen, and try to prepare a meal on a packet | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
of onions? They want to eat bad food. It is personal choice. | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
think the problem we have is that because the food environment is | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
full of very unhaulty product, choice becomes an -- unhealthy | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
product, choice becomes an illusion. Where you don't have choice, where | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
is personal responsibility. Harry talks about personal responsibility, | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
but it is more a political ideology in this aspect. The science tells | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
us, there are lots of foods marketing at healthy, when they are | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
the complete opposite. A lot of low-fat products loaded with sugar | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
and carbohydrate, where is the informed choice there? You have to | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
be clear and know about nutrition to know what is in these, we won't | :42:43. | :42:50. | |
talk about which ones they are. There are certain orange drinks | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
branded as good for you when clearly they aren't. If you are | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
making an informed choice you have to tell people what is in stuff? | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
Sure, but if you are saying there is no choice, you have to accept | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
there are people who are making the choice. The richer you get the more | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
likely you are to get the choice. The conclusion of the argument is | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
suggesting that the poor are incapable of making that choice. | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
I'm saying they are perfectly capable of making that choice, they | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
know what is bad and what is good for them. The same way the middle- | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
classes do, they should be allowed to eat bad food. At the beginning | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
of the conversation you said that Anna Soubry was brave to speak out, | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
but it is really none of her business? It is worth pointing out | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
the fact that it is the truth that the richer you are the healthier | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
you eat. But at the same time people should be allowed to choose | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
what they eat F they want to get fat they should be allowed to. | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
Where does that put the position of the NHS? It is having huge impacts | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
on the NHS. Obesity-related illnesses cost the NHS �5 billion a | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
year. The obesity rates are getting worse, not better, it will only | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
have a greater impact. This is not a problem for the poor, but the | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
whole population. As a cardiologist I treat people with heart disease | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
on a daily basis, yes, there are people from poor backgrounds who | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
can't afford healthier food, that is where the Government steps in, | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
whether it is subsidising healthy food and taxing. But there are | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
people from affluent backgrounds who have unhealthy diets, and | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
survive heart attacks and they say they wished they knew more about | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
the food and the impact on health. If we learn from history, the most | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
important public health advances happened through regulation, | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
whether it is safe drinking water, smoke-free buildings, not cosy | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
voluntary agreements with the guilty industries. I think the | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
problem is people like bad food, like they like drink and cigarettes, | :44:40. | :44:44. |