Browse content similar to 25/01/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Triple-dip recession? Full on depression? The economy shrinks | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
again. Is the Chancellor's plan shot? | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
Out in the real world, one of life's strivers confronts the | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
elephant in the room. All the bills are rising and we're not getting | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
any extra money ourselves. What do you do? I'm a builder by trade. | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
is that? Slow, very slow. Even London's mayor tells the | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
Chancellor to junk talk of austerity. Is it time for a re- | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
think? We ask the Government? Also tonight, we will have the | :00:39. | :00:45. | |
latest from Mali, Steve Hewlett's there. | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
As the Islamist rebels threaten to ban music in Mali, we talk to the | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
musician who has gathered musicians together to sing about peace in | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
their country. The German comedian, tells us what | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
he would miss if we left the EU. sir talgia, before I moved to | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
Britain, I didn't know how to goose step, if it wasn't for the BBC, I | :01:11. | :01:21. | |
:01:21. | :01:22. | ||
still wouldn't know. Good evening, flat, stiing nant and sluggish, | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
that is the optists. The rest are warning the economy faces a triple- | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
dip recession, the first the country has seen in modern time. | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
The latest figures show the country's economy shrank by 0.3%, | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
numbers that lin crease the pressure on George Osborne to come | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
-- will increase the pressure on George Osborne to come up with a | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
Plan B and make it grow again. Arguably the biggest name in the | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
Conservative Party called for the Chancellor to junk talk of | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
austerity and crack on with major building projects to revitalise the | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
economy. First, Paul Mason has been in Gravesend to see what it means | :01:56. | :02:06. | |
close up. In a parallel world, where | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
everything had gone right, Britain's trade routes would be | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
awash with exports. Its high streets would be buzzing. Its | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
manufacturing would be out of trouble. But they are not. One | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
negative quarter is not a disaster, but what we are seeing here is the | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
failure of a plan, the Government thought by now the economy would be | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
well down the path of what it calls rebalancing. Away from reliance on | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
state spending, and consumer spending, and towards manufacturing, | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
and exports. That is just not happening fast enough. | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
This is the third time growth has dipped below zero since the Lehman | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
Brothers crisis. This time it has been driven by a 1.5% fall in | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
manufacturing, combined with a one- off dip in oil production to take | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
overall productive industries down by minus 1.8%. This was the first | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
set of figures for two years, where Government spending fell as a | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
driver of GDP, by 0.7%. So, overall, for the past 12 months, the economy | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
has grown by a big, fat zero. And on the streets of Gravesend, in | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
Kent, a town that boomed once, but now is not booming, they have | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
noticed. Dire, I'm not working at the moment, | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
I haven't been at work for the past month, no work. What are wages like | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
when you do work? It goes up and down doesn't it. It depends where | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
there is work, if there is work somewhere sometimes tough take it | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
if it is a little bit less money. That the voice of a carpenter, this | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
of a pub landlord. Does it feel like a triple-dip recession? Yes, | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
very bad. Why? The pub is bad, trade is gone, no wages. What are | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
you doing in the costume? Trying to boost trade. Everyone is waiting | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
for the pay packet, as soon as it is in it is gone on bills, no | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
luxury money. What about you? feel the same, no spare money, | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
everything goes on bills, electric has gone up again. It is constantly | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
rising and nothing's going up in the money, all the bills are rising | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
and everything like that, we are not getting anything extra | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
ourselves. What do you do? I'm a builder by trade. How is that? | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
very slow. When it comes to green shoots amid all of this, economists | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
can't see many. If you look at where the source of demand is | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
coming from in the UK, it is not coming from consumers who are | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
seeing their real wages eaten in to by inflation, it is not coming from | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
banks, which are deleveraging, or the Government in the middle of | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
implementing austerity measures, it is not coming from the global | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
economy either. It is not surprising at all that the UK | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
economy has gone back into stall speed and may dip into recession | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
again. When it comes to long periods of suppressed growth, there | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
is a word for it, depression. This was the shape of the last | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
depression, output falling from 1930, but back up in positive | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
territory by the start of 1934. Now, here's what we have lived through, | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
shallower, but now 12 months longer and leaving the economy smaller | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
than it was five years ago, and nowhere near getting back into | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
positive territory. It is a reminder that Britain face as very | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
tough economic situation. It is a reminder that last year was | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
particularly difficult, both with the problems we have at home, | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
dealing with the debts built up over many years. But also, frankly, | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
the problems in the eurozone, where many of our exports go, which is is | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
now in recession. We can either run away from those problems or | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
confront them. I'm absolutely determined to confront them, so we | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
can create jobs for the people of this country. The Chancellor had | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
prepared for today's news by eating pizza, in Davos, with friend "Dave" | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
and rival "Boris". The London mayor made a speech calling for the | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
Government to junk the rhetoric of austerity and be confident. As for | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
the opposition? We need action now to kick start the recoverry, a | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
temporary VAT cut and bring forward public investment. As Nick Clegg | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
said yesterday, get houses built and people back to work, boost | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
confidence and get demand moving. I'm afraid it looks as if we will | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
have the Government trying to laugh off what is happening in the | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
economy. That is not good enough. In the search for answers, | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
attention is turning to monetary policy, could the Bank of England | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
start targeting, not inflation, but the rate of growth in Britain's now | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
frozen factories and ports. Canadian Martha Kearney takes over | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
at the bank in July, d Mark Kearney, takes over the bank in July, some | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
want that to start a re-think. Should they use monetary policy and | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
the ability of the Bank of England to create money, in different, more | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
aggressive ways, which means that money goes directly and powerfully | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
into the economy. The arrival of a new governor, who certainly is | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
thinking about these sorts of issues, and is aware of these | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
challenges, is, I think, the ideal occasion to re-think the strategy | :07:00. | :07:07. | |
we have been following, which seems to me obvious is not working. | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
causes of today's dip are a mixture of external conditions and domestic | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
ones, but policy is the one thing you can control. You can, if you | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
want, blame the euro crisis, and austerity here, but ultimately | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
today's policy comes down to this. If you say you are going to | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
rebalance the economy, and promote growth, using Government policy, | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
you actually have to have a policy and it has to work. | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
For now, George Osborne is sticking to his policy, though mutterings in | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
the coalition and his party are getting louder. | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
Joining me now is David Gauke, the Exchequer secretary to the Treasury. | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
You must be incredibly disappointed? Obviously we would | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
want stronger growth than in 2012, 2012 is a difficult year, for the | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
UK and other places as well. In fact, the numbers we have seen | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
today are broadly in line with what the Office of Budget Responsibility | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
said last year. If you look over 2012. So not surprising, not really | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
disappointing at all? The fact that the economy contracts in the last | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
quarter of last year is not a big surprise. And there was no growth | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
last year. Clearly we would want growth. The question is why is that | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
happening and what can we do to get growth in the future. The reason | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
why it is happening is we have the eurozone crisis, we have commodity | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
prices higher than we would like, and we have been dealing with the | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
aftereffects of the financial crisis of 2007/08. You could | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
mention the snow if you need more reasons! That is not what the | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
Government has set out but the Office of Budget Responsibility has | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
set out why we were struggling this year. You have managed to achieve | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
something remarkable, you have put the economy into reverse three | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
times, we are heading for a triple- dip recession? The Office of Budget | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
Responsibility predicted that the last quarter of 2012 would be a | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
contraction, they are predicting that the first quarter of 2013, the | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
economy will grow. This is your policy? That is the point I was | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
making a moment or so ago, the reasons why the economy has gone | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
through a difficult spell are because of these particular factors, | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
how do we get growth? I don't believe that borrowing more money | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
is the solution to those problems. What we want to do is make sure | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
that we get lending through to businesses. When you listen to | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
those voices in Gravesend, people saying there is no spare money, the | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
bills are constantly rising, there is no trade, there is no wages, the | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
whole point of your plan for austerity is it was meant to be | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
offset by growth, that of the policy, and the policy has failed? | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
The reasons why growth has been disappointing over the last two | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
years. Disappointing, there has been nothing, it has not grown? | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
has been disappointing for the very reasons I have set out, the | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
question is how do we get that growth. The answer isn't more | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
borrowing that puts at risk higher interest rates, the answer is to | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
try to get rid some of those regulations that hold back | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
businesses, it is about getting money through to businesses, with | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
the funding through lending scheme, it is about switching spending to | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
infrastructure, capital spending. Things like science, David Willetts | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
was on this programme last night setting out what we are doing. | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
Within your own Government and your own party Nick Clegg has admitted | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
those capital spending cuts were a mistake. You have heard from Boris | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
Johnson, the biggest name in your party, saying junk the austerity | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
talk. He's telling the Chancellor to do is. Is there a Plan B now? | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
is absolutely right that we made the case why we had to take very | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
difficult action to deal with the deficit, we needed to make that | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
case. We still need to make that case. You haven't dealt with the | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
deficit, it has actually increased? It is 25% lower than it was. It has | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
increased in the last 12 month. is lower than it was when we came | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
into the office. It increased in the last 12 months, that is where | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
you are? The Office of Budget Responsibility predict the deficit | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
will continue to fall, but we will wait for the time of the budget. | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
The reality is, if we had not taken difficult decisions on spending and | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
tax, we would have a deficit still in similar terms to where we were | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
two years ago, and that would have put our credibility at risk. Most | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
people hearing this, you are talking about credibility and the | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
credit rating, most people will say we don't care about that as much as | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
we care about growth. We need to see things happening in the economy, | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
this is what we feel, every day in our pockets, when do you say, do | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
you know, we got it wrong, time for a U-turn? I tell you why it matters, | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
it matters because we don't have that credibility, we will see | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
interest rates rise, we will see mortgage rates rise, we will see it | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
harder for businesses to get access to finance. So there will be no | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
concession to what is going on now? That is damaging for the economy. | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
You are sticking rigidly to this plan, there will be no turn? It is | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
vital that we are determined to bring down the deficit, but | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
alongside that, we have to continue to do. It is credibility over | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
growth, bluntly? Not at all. That is where we are? There is no | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
tension between the two. A precondition for growth is | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
credibility. There is a tension between the two, that is what you | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
are told, Boris Johnson has said we cannot risk losing confidence, it | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
is time to junk talk of austerity. The IMF has said if things don't | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
get better we need to do austerity slower. Jim O'Neil has said the | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
same, the head of Goldman Sachs, are these voices not credible? | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
need to demonstrate a show of getting our public finances under | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
control, we need to put in place and impli mate the policies we have | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
announced. About support for conditions and infrastructure and a | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
competitive tax system it, those are the steps this Government is | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
taking to ensure we get the long- term growth. There is a very clear | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
desire and strategy by this Government to get growth. But the | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
idea that the solution to these problems is if we borrow �160 | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
billion a year, that all those problems go away is nonsense. | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
Great to have you here, if you can hold on we can talk to France | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
O'Grady, the General Secretary of the tuck, and -- TUC, and the | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
former member of the Monetary Policy Committee. What do you make | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
of what we have just heard, France O'Grady, that the solution is not | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
just to borrow more and make cuts? The Government's austerity policy | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
has lost all credibility. Frankly, last time we heard a Conservative- | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
led Government say there is no alternative, it didn't end well. We | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
have got zero growth, austerity is faileding, and employment is still | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
far too high, -- failing, and employment is far too high, with a | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
quarter of all young people long- term unemployed. Real problems with | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
ordinary working people suffering the third year of real pay cuts. We | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
have sucked demand out of the economy. Business confidence is low, | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
because consumer confidence is low. People haven't got money to spend. | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
It was good to hear Nick Clegg say sorry for cutting �22 billion off | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
capital investment, but he also said people need money in their | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
pockets. In which case, why have a 1% cap on benefits and wages, let's | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
look at wages-led growth, a good industrial policy, and some jobs | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
for our young people. Marina Bell, what is the answer? I think the | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
important thing for credibility is that fiscal consolidation, | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
austerity happens, with regard to what is going on in the economy. So | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
that over the cycle, and when the economy recovers, plans are in | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
place to bring the cyclical adjusted current budget deficit | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
back into balance. That is a plan we have, but with a rolling five- | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
year horizon. It should be contingent on where the economy is, | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
and the target to stablise debt as a percentage of GDP, should also be | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
subject to the economy getting back to trend. We shouldn't try to | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
achieve these targets in too fast a time frame. You would agree that we | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
should slow down? Absolutely. Bluntly France O'Grady, you have to | :15:19. | :15:27. | |
the -- bluntly Frances O'Grady you have the minister here what do you | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
want? We want a policy, led by the Prime Minister, that you need to | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
re-think austerity parties, making ordinary working-class families | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
poorer is not -- working families poorer is not going to make the | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
country grow. We need demand back into the economy, and the best way | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
to do that, there is lots of evidence on this, is to put money | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
in the pockets of working people and the poor, because they spent it | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
in the local economy. Where as the rich, tend to save or shove it off | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
to tax havens. So you need to start being fair, you need to start | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
investing for the future, we need to get our infrastructure moving. | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
You need to get some real reform of the banking system, because they | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
put us into this mess, they need to be reformed in order for us to get | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
out of it. Is what you are hearing, and we will put this to the | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
minister in a second, realistic, and what do you expect Mark Kearney | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
to do when he comes in, should the Bank of England have more powers | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
now? The bank has been given an incredible amount of power. | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
terms of bank regulation, for example, do you think they will | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
take that bull bit horns? I would hope that in terms of bank | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
regulation they will go a little bit easier in the prudent policies | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
of raising capital ratios. I think the irony of the situation we are | :16:48. | :16:56. | |
in, is policies that would be prudent in other times likely | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
borrowing, balanced current account budget, high capital ratios, are | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
not the sort of things you should be putting in place in the teeth of | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
a recession. So I hope that there will be a slowdown, perhaps, in | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
pushing up the capital ratios. I would hope that the Government and | :17:14. | :17:21. | |
the banks stick with targeting inflation. Mormonry, as we heard in | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
the film, more aggressive -- more monetary policy, as we heard in the | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
film, more aggressive monetary policy may be required. There are | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
signs in the last few months that the healthy levels might be | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
reversing. Let's put some of the blunt things | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
people are talking about now, a cut in VAT, a cut in national insurance | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
contributions, are these the things that we are going to see in the | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
March budget, should we? Not if we can't afford them. That is the | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
challenge. It is all very well, and I heard Ed Balls today saying we | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
should do all this, we should cut these taxes and spend more into | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
this area. What that would result in is more borrowing, I'm afraid | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
that is...You Are already spending more on the welfare budget because | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
more people are out of work and suffering? For the reasons I | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
outlined earlier, these are difficult times for the economy, | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
there is that flexibility within our current plans, that may happen. | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
The idea of a stimulus, that we choose to enter into, is just more | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
borrowing, and I'm afraid, the answer that we get from Labour all | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
the time is borrow more. That's always their answer, that is what | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
they do in Government as well. don't want to taper cuts at this | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
point? The difficulty if we try to go for revering things, if we try | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
to go for -- reversing things, if we try to go for big tax cuts we | :18:47. | :18:56. | |
can't fund from elsewhere, we can't and we find interest rates going up | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
and you take more money out of the economy. This is full steam ahead, | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
Plan A, nothing has changed as of today? The strategy of getting the | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
public finances under control, while at the same time taking some | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
of the difficult decisions to ensure the UK can grow is the right | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
approach, it is not going to always be popular, there will be | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
resistance to it, and it's not easy when the world economy is going | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
through some of the challenges it is at the moment. But it is the | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
right approach for the long-term for this country. | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
Thank you. A British surveillance plane has | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
taken off to support French military prayings against shraelist | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
rebels in Mali, earlier today -- Islamist rebels in Mali, earlier | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
today planes bombed positions, and a town has been retaken. We spent | :19:41. | :19:48. | |
the day in Bamako, I I asked what the mood was like there? The first | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
thing that strikes you here is the sheer sense of relief that everyone | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
I have spoken to feels. They have been saved by the French from all | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
the problems they foresaw, if the Islamists had come here. This is a | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
very poor country, of course, but a country that is very rich in | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
culture, with a fairly easy going form of Islam, very famous for its | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
music and other forms of culture. People, of course, heard all the | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
news that was happening in the rebel-controlled north, all the | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
punishments, for smoking, the punishments for women who were | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
unveiled, and the amputations for theft, they were terrified that | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
would come here. The problem now is the sheer weight of expectations | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
that are being put on the French. People not only expect the French | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
effectively to liberate the whole country from the Islamists, but | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
they also want the French, their former colonial masters, who | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
achieve some kind of political fix here, to reintroduce democracy, and | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
even a better form of democracy than people had before the French | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
left. Whether the French really have the appetite to sort all that | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
out is very much open to question. What does that mean for the | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
operation, how long do the French have to be there? Well, the | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
operation to drive the Islamists back is proceeding fairly steadily. | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
At first, with French air strikes, then French Special Forces, and | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
then the malian army behind, that but the really big fight, foit in | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
the desert, the fight for the two many Islamist-controlled towns, | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
Timbuktu we don't know where that will go. We don't know whether or | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
not French public opinion will change. We have heard of reprisal | :21:43. | :21:50. | |
killings by the Mali army. That is France's main ally. What is | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
supposed to happen is that behind the French are supposed to come | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
these contingents of west African forces from Nigeria, Togo, Ivory | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
Coast and so on. But even a special adviser to the mally President said | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
to me today that he -- Mali President said to me today he | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
wasn't sure if these forces could cope in unfamiliar terrain. It was | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
kite-flying under the Taliban, ballroom dancing under Mao, history | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
under Pol Pot, the first impulse of a dictator is to control the people | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
under the freedom it bans. If the Islamists of west Africa get their | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
way, the next addition to that will be music in Mali. Enter the mally | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
musician who has gathered 40 musicians to sing in their country | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
and against the imposition of Sharia Law. Nowhere does music have | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
political importance than in the vast desert state of Mali. Now in | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
exile in southern France, she talked to Steve Smith. | :22:55. | :23:03. | |
At a sound check for a concert near Marseille tonight, it is rising | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
star Fatoumata Diawara. But her thoughts are 2,000 miles away, with | :23:07. | :23:15. | |
the conflict in Mali? I decided to go in Mali in the summer to do the | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
holy day. People said don't stay in Mali, you have to go back because | :23:18. | :23:26. | |
you are in danger in Mali now. I said, OK, so it is time to do | :23:26. | :23:36. | |
:23:36. | :23:49. | ||
Can you tell me about this song you have recorded with the other | :23:49. | :23:59. | |
:23:59. | :24:02. | ||
musicians from Mali? Every artist expresses themselves about how they | :24:02. | :24:12. | |
:24:12. | :24:12. | ||
are feeling, the first one is peace, the second one it is about uniting, | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
between our brothers from the north and the people from the south. As | :24:17. | :24:26. | |
musicians we needed to express that, talk about reality, be a voice of | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
those people. Music is very important, more important than | :24:30. | :24:37. | |
politics. Also we have a very bad situation, very bad politics kal | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
situation now. And the people really -- political situation now, | :24:40. | :24:49. | |
the people really need some hope. We know many shocking things are | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
happening in Mali at the moment, there is mistreatment of musicians, | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
we have heard of instruments being confiscated, recording equipment | :24:56. | :25:06. | |
smashed? It is also one of our fights to protect our music. In the | :25:06. | :25:13. | |
last few minutes months music is in danger in mal-- the last few months, | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
music is in danger in Mali, the Islamists want to stop music. | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
what we understand, some of the people in the north, the Islamists, | :25:23. | :25:30. | |
regard music as wrong and yet it is a vital part of your country's | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
tradition, isn't it? I don't know which kind of music they want. They | :25:35. | :25:42. | |
want us to sing only about God. So we can't do that. We can't do that. | :25:42. | :25:50. | |
We needed to express ourselves, we need to express the many problems | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
of Mali by music. We do everything by this. Politics, everything. | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
condition of women, you sing about that? Emancipations, you know. | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
That's the way that I decided to talk to my generation, by music. I | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
have this kind of writing, very new for my country, and the people are | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
very receptive of that, they love that. My generation like my kind of | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
writing, because it is more direct. If I stopped that, what are we | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
gonna do, what will we be? We will lose everything. Our soul, our | :26:25. | :26:35. | |
culture, our ancestoral gifts. Our spiritual things, the spirit of | :26:35. | :26:45. | |
:26:45. | :26:52. | ||
Mali is music. You were in the country recently, | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
what is happening with your family, and your friends, how are they | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
while this is going on? We don't know what is going to happen | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
tomorrow. Politic cleel we don't have anybody who can -- politically | :27:04. | :27:11. | |
we don't have anybody who can really help us. That is the second | :27:11. | :27:18. | |
problem, very important now. To really make us a very sad. I have | :27:18. | :27:25. | |
many friends who are artists, who play on the records, very great | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
artists in Mali, nobody has gigs now. We can't play. You can't play | :27:30. | :27:39. | |
at home? No. Because it is too dangerous? It is very dangerous. We | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
can't have a kamikaze to come and explode everything. We are very | :27:45. | :27:52. | |
worried. Every artist is really happy to do this project, and they | :27:52. | :28:02. | |
:28:02. | :28:06. | ||
thing, I hope, so it will bring a big hope for the mally people. | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
Any friends in Europe are good right now, the German newspaper has | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
run an article begging us to stay in the EU. Listing ten reasons why | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
Europe needs us. Before we go we offer our own repost, a German | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
stand-up median gives us a list of what he will miss if we left the | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
European Union. What does Britain do best, celebrating incompetence, | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
and a continent of self-deprecation, the idea you can laugh off failure. | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
It doesn't matter how bad you mess up in your line of work, as long as | :28:39. | :28:48. | |
you can tell the tale of your underachievement in a funny way. | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
Britain is all about a great sense of humour, and nostalgia, before I | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
moved to Britain, I didn't know how to goose step. If it wasn't for the | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
BBC I still wouldn't know how to. The Dunkirk spirit, it is very | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
British, but probably not a very good example, if that was all about | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
Britain getting out of Europe. Then sectarianism, I love sectarianism, | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
but in Scotland it's brilliant sectarianism, it makes for such | :29:14. | :29:22. | |
great football. And in a way I understand it is a blight on almost | :29:23. | :29:30. | |
every other aspect of life, those 90 minutes on a Saturday afternoon | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
it is worth it. Alcohol, at home I'm an alcoholic, here I'm joly. | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
Free schools, even if they open with a school with the best of | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
intention, Ofsted will make them jump through so answer hoops they | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
will be mental by the end of it T But it doesn't matter, what this | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
country is all about is tolerance. Britain, very good to us foreigners, | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
you hole date us. You don't welcome us, you don't welcome us, but you | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
tolerate us, that is a great British virttu. There is something | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
you really dislike, but you can't be bothered to do anything about it, | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
at home we call that lazy cynicism, here it is tolerance. The biggest | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
problem if Britain leaves the European Union, people in Berlin | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
will have to pay for more their After Eights, so, please, stay. | :30:18. | :30:25. | |
Please. There you go, you heard it from | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
here first. Tonight on Review, Sarah Churchwell, | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
James Fox and Lionel Shriver join me to talk about four giants, | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
Abraham Lincoln in the hands of Spielberg, the real Orwell season, | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
and Turn of the Screw done by Hammer Theatre of Horror, and all | :30:44. | :30:49. |