05/03/2013 Newsnight

This programme contains scenes of This programme contains scenes of

This programme contains scenes of flash photography from the start.

flash photography from the start. flash photography from the start.

I promised both the Government and I promised both the Government and

I promised both the Government and I promised both the Government and

the NHS that I would see that through.

through. through.

Today the chief executive of the Today the chief executive of the

Today the chief executive of the NHS faced down calls for his

NHS faced down calls for his NHS faced down calls for his

resignation, after his role in the resignation, after his role in the

resignation, after his role in the Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really

Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really

Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really the man to lead the health service

the man to lead the health service the man to lead the health service

in England through a massive in England through a massive

in England through a massive overhaul? We will ask the

Government. Government.

Government. Government.

Within the last hour it has been Within the last hour it has been

announced that Venezuela's announced that Venezuela's

announced that Venezuela's President, Hugo Chavez, has died.

President, Hugo Chavez, has died. President, Hugo Chavez, has died.

We will have the latest. We will have the latest.

We will have the latest. Also tonight, why are middle-aged

Also tonight, why are middle-aged Also tonight, why are middle-aged

men so desperate that they take men so desperate that they take

men so desperate that they take their own lives. What has gone

their own lives. What has gone their own lives. What has gone

their own lives. What has gone wrong? When you are there and you

wrong? When you are there and you wrong? When you are there and you

wrong? When you are there and you have that mental anguish, it is a

have that mental anguish, it is a have that mental anguish, it is a

cloud, a black cloud that cloud, a black cloud that

cloud, a black cloud that completely envelops you. You can't

completely envelops you. You can't see through it.

see through it. see through it.

see through it. What can we do about it? I will

What can we do about it? I will What can we do about it? I will

What can we do about it? I will speak to the Government and to the

Samaritans. Samaritans.

Samaritans. # We're an all-time high

# We're an all-time high # We're an all-time high

# We're an all-time high The Dow Jones hits an all-time high,

The Dow Jones hits an all-time high, The Dow Jones hits an all-time high,

The Dow Jones hits an all-time high, is it something to cheer or jeer.

is it something to cheer or jeer. is it something to cheer or jeer.

The markets are going good, but The markets are going good, but

where's the growth. where's the growth.

where's the growth. Good evening, just before we came

Good evening, just before we came Good evening, just before we came

Good evening, just before we came on air it was announced that Hugo

on air it was announced that Hugo on air it was announced that Hugo

Chavez, the fiery populist leader Chavez, the fiery populist leader

Chavez, the fiery populist leader of Venezuela has died, after

of Venezuela has died, after of Venezuela has died, after

suffering from cancer for two years. suffering from cancer for two years.

suffering from cancer for two years. suffering from cancer for two years.

In power for 14 years, Chavez is In power for 14 years, Chavez is

In power for 14 years, Chavez is wildly credited with championing a

wildly credited with championing a leftist rerival across Latin

America. America.

America. America.

We have the latest. First of all, We have the latest. First of all,

We have the latest. First of all, Hugo Chavez hadn't been seen in

Hugo Chavez hadn't been seen in Hugo Chavez hadn't been seen in

public since December. It can't be public since December. It can't be

public since December. It can't be unexpected, but what has the

unexpected, but what has the reaction of Venezuelans within?

reaction of Venezuelans within? reaction of Venezuelans within?

They have been thinking that, the They have been thinking that, the

They have been thinking that, the majority of the people have been

majority of the people have been majority of the people have been

thinking that Hugo Chavez might thinking that Hugo Chavez might

thinking that Hugo Chavez might actually make it through once more.

actually make it through once more. actually make it through once more.

actually make it through once more. He has been sick, he was sick with

He has been sick, he was sick with He has been sick, he was sick with

He has been sick, he was sick with cancer for two years, and he came

cancer for two years, and he came cancer for two years, and he came

back several times saying he had back several times saying he had

back several times saying he had been cured. A release last week

been cured. A release last week been cured. A release last week

showed that the majority of the showed that the majority of the

showed that the majority of the people, 60%, thought he might make

people, 60%, thought he might make people, 60%, thought he might make

it through this time. Reactions it through this time. Reactions

it through this time. Reactions will be very different. Chavez

will be very different. Chavez will be very different. Chavez

supporters are going to be morning supporters are going to be morning

supporters are going to be morning supporters are going to be morning

the President for a very long time. the President for a very long time.

the President for a very long time. At the same time the opposition

At the same time the opposition At the same time the opposition

At the same time the opposition feels that they are finally rid of

feels that they are finally rid of feels that they are finally rid of

feels that they are finally rid of one of the worst leaders in the

one of the worst leaders in the one of the worst leaders in the

one of the worst leaders in the history of the country. He was a

history of the country. He was a history of the country. He was a

hugely divisive leader, a hero of hugely divisive leader, a hero of

hugely divisive leader, a hero of hugely divisive leader, a hero of

the poor, and not afraid of some the poor, and not afraid of some

pretty strong anti-American rhetoric.

rhetoric. rhetoric.

That's right, just today the Vice That's right, just today the Vice

That's right, just today the Vice President actually used some of the

President actually used some of the President actually used some of the

Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how

Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how

it was the western powers who had it was the western powers who had

it was the western powers who had inoculated the cancer into the

inoculated the cancer into the inoculated the cancer into the

President, and he actually expelled President, and he actually expelled

President, and he actually expelled two US military attaches, saying

two US military attaches, saying two US military attaches, saying

they were plotting against the Government.

Government. Government.

This kind of rhetoric was classic This kind of rhetoric was classic

This kind of rhetoric was classic This kind of rhetoric was classic

from Mr Chavez, it means that the from Mr Chavez, it means that the

from Mr Chavez, it means that the Vice President is now continuing

Vice President is now continuing with that tradition.

with that tradition. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. We will come back to Hugo Chavez's

We will come back to Hugo Chavez's We will come back to Hugo Chavez's

We will come back to Hugo Chavez's Death In Venice wail la later in

the programme. the programme.

the programme. the programme.

The man who was in charge of The man who was in charge of

The man who was in charge of leading the NHS in England, through

leading the NHS in England, through leading the NHS in England, through

a major overhaul, today faced a major overhaul, today faced

a major overhaul, today faced further calls for his resignation.

further calls for his resignation. further calls for his resignation.

further calls for his resignation. For it was the same man, David

For it was the same man, David For it was the same man, David

Nicholson, who, according to his Nicholson, who, according to his

Nicholson, who, according to his critics, presided over one of the

critics, presided over one of the critics, presided over one of the

biggest scandals in the health biggest scandals in the health

biggest scandals in the health service, the Mid Staffs Foundation

service, the Mid Staffs Foundation service, the Mid Staffs Foundation

Trust. Today as chief executive of Trust. Today as chief executive of

Trust. Today as chief executive of Trust. Today as chief executive of

the NHS he told the Commons Select the NHS he told the Commons Select

the NHS he told the Commons Select Committee that he has apologised to

Committee that he has apologised to Committee that he has apologised to

the families affected. He may the families affected. He may

the families affected. He may the families affected. He may

continue to have the support of the continue to have the support of the

continue to have the support of the Prime Minister, but does he have

Prime Minister, but does he have Prime Minister, but does he have

the confidence of NHS staff and patients.

patients. patients.

The scandal at Stafford Hospital The scandal at Stafford Hospital

The scandal at Stafford Hospital rocked the NHS, years of horrific

rocked the NHS, years of horrific rocked the NHS, years of horrific

neglect of patients, that the QC neglect of patients, that the QC

neglect of patients, that the QC Robert Francis examined and called

Robert Francis examined and called Robert Francis examined and called

an appalling failure at every level. an appalling failure at every level.

an appalling failure at every level. an appalling failure at every level.

He deened maed a change in culture He deened maed a change in culture

He deened maed a change in culture -- demanded a change in culture

-- demanded a change in culture -- demanded a change in culture

that puts patients first. Just as that puts patients first. Just as

that puts patients first. Just as the NHS in England faces arguably

the NHS in England faces arguably the NHS in England faces arguably

its biggest-ever shake had-up. This its biggest-ever shake had-up. This

its biggest-ever shake had-up. This whole process is supposed to be

whole process is supposed to be whole process is supposed to be

whole process is supposed to be about finding the best way to run

about finding the best way to run about finding the best way to run

about finding the best way to run the NHS to benefit us, the patients.

the NHS to benefit us, the patients. the NHS to benefit us, the patients.

There have been so many There have been so many

reorganisations in recent years, reorganisations in recent years,

reorganisations in recent years, reorganisations in recent years,

yet we still don't seem to have yet we still don't seem to have

yet we still don't seem to have found the right prescription. And

found the right prescription. And found the right prescription. And

found the right prescription. And now, there is about to be yet

now, there is about to be yet another major upheaval.

another major upheaval. another major upheaval.

another major upheaval. And the man in charge of making

And the man in charge of making And the man in charge of making

that reorganisation work is also that reorganisation work is also

that reorganisation work is also the focus of patients' anger over

the focus of patients' anger over the focus of patients' anger over

Stafford. Sir David Nicholson was Stafford. Sir David Nicholson was

Stafford. Sir David Nicholson was responsible for the Trust that ran

responsible for the Trust that ran responsible for the Trust that ran

responsible for the Trust that ran ZAF Ford Hospital, as head of its

ZAF Ford Hospital, as head of its ZAF Ford Hospital, as head of its

regional health authority, for part regional health authority, for part

regional health authority, for part of the time when patients were

of the time when patients were of the time when patients were

neglected. He has been chief neglected. He has been chief

neglected. He has been chief executive of England's NHS since

executive of England's NHS since executive of England's NHS since

executive of England's NHS since 22006. In front of MPs at the

22006. In front of MPs at the Health Select Committee this

Health Select Committee this Health Select Committee this

Health Select Committee this morning, this was his moment to set

morning, this was his moment to set morning, this was his moment to set

morning, this was his moment to set out why he should stay. We will

out why he should stay. We will out why he should stay. We will

completely change the way in which completely change the way in which

we allocate resources and we allocate resources and

we allocate resources and incentivise the NHS. And at the

incentivise the NHS. And at the incentivise the NHS. And at the

incentivise the NHS. And at the same time, we are losing, we have

same time, we are losing, we have already lost 13,500 administrative

already lost 13,500 administrative already lost 13,500 administrative

and managing staff, who have all and managing staff, who have all

and managing staff, who have all that corporate memory in them. It

that corporate memory in them. It that corporate memory in them. It

that corporate memory in them. It is at maximum risk over the next

is at maximum risk over the next is at maximum risk over the next

is at maximum risk over the next few days. I said two years Agatha I

few days. I said two years Agatha I few days. I said two years Agatha I

would take the responsibility -- would take the responsibility --

would take the responsibility -- ago that I would take the

ago that I would take the ago that I would take the

responsibility of leading the NHS responsibility of leading the NHS

responsibility of leading the NHS through this enormously complex set

through this enormously complex set through this enormously complex set

of changes. I promised the of changes. I promised the

of changes. I promised the of changes. I promised the

Government and the NHS I would see Government and the NHS I would see

Government and the NHS I would see Government and the NHS I would see

it through. Sir David was asked if it through. Sir David was asked if

it through. Sir David was asked if it through. Sir David was asked if

he was a process man? He spent he was a process man? He spent

he was a process man? He spent he was a process man? He spent

years at the heart of an NHS system, years at the heart of an NHS system,

years at the heart of an NHS system, years at the heart of an NHS system,

which he said at the time of the which he said at the time of the

which he said at the time of the deaths in Stafford wasn't equipped

deaths in Stafford wasn't equipped deaths in Stafford wasn't equipped

or capable of monitoring the people or capable of monitoring the people

or capable of monitoring the people or capable of monitoring the people

in its care. One member of the in its care. One member of the

committee, clearly frustrated, committee, clearly frustrated,

committee, clearly frustrated, committee, clearly frustrated,

asked if he might have spent less asked if he might have spent less

asked if he might have spent less time here at the Department of

time here at the Department of time here at the Department of

Health and more with patients. Health and more with patients.

Health and more with patients. Health and more with patients.

were there in the middle and you were there in the middle and you

were there in the middle and you didn't understand it, we are trying

didn't understand it, we are trying didn't understand it, we are trying

didn't understand it, we are trying to work out how to make it better

to work out how to make it better to work out how to make it better

to work out how to make it better for the future F it means you come

for the future F it means you come for the future F it means you come

for the future F it means you come out of Richmond House and feed a

out of Richmond House and feed a out of Richmond House and feed a

out of Richmond House and feed a few more patients and see a few

few more patients and see a few few more patients and see a few

more patients, maybe that is what more patients, maybe that is what

more patients, maybe that is what you should be doing. Do you

you should be doing. Do you you should be doing. Do you

understand my drift. You are a understand my drift. You are a

understand my drift. You are a understand my drift. You are a

process man? I'm no a process man, process man? I'm no a process man,

process man? I'm no a process man, I went round those hospitals in

I went round those hospitals in I went round those hospitals in

Stafford. I was responsible for 50 Stafford. I was responsible for 50

Stafford. I was responsible for 50 hospitals across that place, I

hospitals across that place, I hospitals across that place, I

probably visited all of them. probably visited all of them.

probably visited all of them. probably visited all of them.

David said that at the time things David said that at the time things

David said that at the time things were going wrong at Stafford, the

were going wrong at Stafford, the were going wrong at Stafford, the

NHS had no culture of sharing NHS had no culture of sharing

NHS had no culture of sharing information. And that he was not

information. And that he was not information. And that he was not

information. And that he was not aware that death rates at the Trust

aware that death rates at the Trust aware that death rates at the Trust

were higher than expected. He were higher than expected. He

were higher than expected. He didn't blame politicians, but said

didn't blame politicians, but said constant reorganisations had

constant reorganisations had created confusion about

created confusion about created confusion about

accountability. And now he's about accountability. And now he's about

accountability. And now he's about to oversee the next one. The

to oversee the next one. The to oversee the next one. The

headline change will see a greater headline change will see a greater

headline change will see a greater involvement for GPs. At the moment

involvement for GPs. At the moment involvement for GPs. At the moment

the Health Secretary sets NHS the Health Secretary sets NHS

the Health Secretary sets NHS policies, which the Department of

policies, which the Department of policies, which the Department of

Health passes down through ten Health passes down through ten

strategic health authorities. 152 strategic health authorities. 152

strategic health authorities. 152 Primary Care Trusts see those

Primary Care Trusts see those policies are implemented,

policies are implemented, policies are implemented,

controlling the lion's share of controlling the lion's share of

controlling the lion's share of spending. From April those Trusts

spending. From April those Trusts spending. From April those Trusts

will be replaced by 212 Clinical will be replaced by 212 Clinical

Commissioning Groupss, largely made Commissioning Groupss, largely made

Commissioning Groupss, largely made Commissioning Groupss, largely made

up of GPs, who will take over the up of GPs, who will take over the

up of GPs, who will take over the responsibility for the majority of

responsibility for the majority of responsibility for the majority of

local spending. These groups will local spending. These groups will

local spending. These groups will ultimately be answerable to a new

ultimately be answerable to a new ultimately be answerable to a new

NHS Commissioning Board, with Sir NHS Commissioning Board, with Sir

NHS Commissioning Board, with Sir David Nicholson at its helm. Which

David Nicholson at its helm. Which David Nicholson at its helm. Which

will take charge of overseeing the will take charge of overseeing the

will take charge of overseeing the NHS from the Department of Health.

NHS from the Department of Health. NHS from the Department of Health.

Then this afternoon, just weeks Then this afternoon, just weeks

Then this afternoon, just weeks away from this wholesale change,

away from this wholesale change, away from this wholesale change,

the Government announced it will the Government announced it will

the Government announced it will rewrite the rules, after medics and

rewrite the rules, after medics and rewrite the rules, after medics and

Labour claimed this these would Labour claimed this these would

allow backdoor privatisation. Sir allow backdoor privatisation. Sir

allow backdoor privatisation. Sir allow backdoor privatisation. Sir

David said he does have regrets, he David said he does have regrets, he

David said he does have regrets, he David said he does have regrets, he

says he wished he had fete the cure says he wished he had fete the cure

says he wished he had fete the cure says he wished he had fete the cure

the NHS group. We need to listen to the NHS group. We need to listen to

the NHS group. We need to listen to the NHS group. We need to listen to

the frontline, that is all we need the frontline, that is all we need

the frontline, that is all we need the frontline, that is all we need

to do. What tends to happen, is we to do. What tends to happen, is we

have initiative after initiative, have initiative after initiative,

have initiative after initiative, all top-down, frontline are so

all top-down, frontline are so all top-down, frontline are so

confused as to what initiative they confused as to what initiative they

confused as to what initiative they confused as to what initiative they

are even working to this week. Put are even working to this week. Put

are even working to this week. Put are even working to this week. Put

it back into the hands of the it back into the hands of the

it back into the hands of the frontline staff, nurses and doctors,

frontline staff, nurses and doctors, frontline staff, nurses and doctors,

frontline staff, nurses and doctors, they are the ones who know what

patients need. patients need.

patients need. Sir David said's made significant

Sir David said's made significant Sir David said's made significant

changes as a result of Robert changes as a result of Robert

changes as a result of Robert Francis's inquiry, and said the

Francis's inquiry, and said the Francis's inquiry, and said the

system has never had the sharp system has never had the sharp

system has never had the sharp accountability it has now. I think

accountability it has now. I think accountability it has now. I think

David Nicholson is a good manager. David Nicholson is a good manager.

David Nicholson is a good manager. David Nicholson is a good manager.

And in some respects he's done an And in some respects he's done an

And in some respects he's done an And in some respects he's done an

excellent job. But I think the real excellent job. But I think the real

excellent job. But I think the real excellent job. But I think the real

lesson that has come out of it, is lesson that has come out of it, is

lesson that has come out of it, is lesson that has come out of it, is

if even a good man and a good if even a good man and a good

if even a good man and a good manager like David Nicholson can't

manager like David Nicholson can't manager like David Nicholson can't

actually run the system effectively, actually run the system effectively,

actually run the system effectively, it shows us there is something

it shows us there is something it shows us there is something

it shows us there is something wrong with the system. What we need

wrong with the system. What we need wrong with the system. What we need

wrong with the system. What we need in the future is not another David

in the future is not another David in the future is not another David

in the future is not another David Nicholson, it may not even be David

Nicholson, it may not even be David Nicholson, it may not even be David

Nicholson himself, it is a Nicholson himself, it is a

decentralised system that relies decentralised system that relies

decentralised system that relies much more upon patients and local

much more upon patients and local much more upon patients and local

commissioners to do the job. commissioners to do the job.

commissioners to do the job. It seems pretty unlikely that Sir

It seems pretty unlikely that Sir It seems pretty unlikely that Sir

It seems pretty unlikely that Sir It seems pretty unlikely that Sir

David will go now, in the run up to David will go now, in the run up to

structural change. Afterall, the structural change. Afterall, the

structural change. Afterall, the structural change. Afterall, the

plan for the NHS to make �20 plan for the NHS to make �20

plan for the NHS to make �20 billion worth of efficiency savings

billion worth of efficiency savings billion worth of efficiency savings

carries his name, the Nicholson Challenge.

Challenge. Challenge.

The Health Minister, Norman Lam is with me.

with me. with me.

with me. -- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can

-- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can -- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can

-- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can -- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can

a man who this went on under on his a man who this went on under on his

a man who this went on under on his patch have your confidence?

patch have your confidence? patch have your confidence?

people questioning on the clip people questioning on the clip

people questioning on the clip there got it absolutely right. What

there got it absolutely right. What there got it absolutely right. What

we need to do is devolve we need to do is devolve

we need to do is devolve responsibility so the clinicians on

responsibility so the clinicians on the frontline have responsibility

the frontline have responsibility the frontline have responsibility

for the services. This is the for the services. This is the

Nicholson Challenge? The Nicholson Nicholson Challenge? The Nicholson

Challenge is about echeefg Challenge is about echeefg

efficiency changes across the efficiency changes across the

efficiency changes across the system, which is necessary to

system, which is necessary to system, which is necessary to

ensure the NHS is sustainable. This ensure the NHS is sustainable. This

ensure the NHS is sustainable. This ensure the NHS is sustainable. This

idea that there is one man or idea that there is one man or

idea that there is one man or idea that there is one man or

individual in charge of the NHS, is individual in charge of the NHS, is

individual in charge of the NHS, is the outdated thinking we have to

the outdated thinking we have to the outdated thinking we have to

the outdated thinking we have to move on from. Julie Bailey got it

move on from. Julie Bailey got it right about frontline clinicians

right about frontline clinicians right about frontline clinicians

being responsible and in charge. being responsible and in charge.

being responsible and in charge. All those deaths in Mid Staffs,

All those deaths in Mid Staffs, All those deaths in Mid Staffs,

either from abuse or neglect, how either from abuse or neglect, how

either from abuse or neglect, how either from abuse or neglect, how

can you look relatives in the eye can you look relatives in the eye

can you look relatives in the eye can you look relatives in the eye

can you look relatives in the eye and say this is the man for the job,

and say this is the man for the job, and say this is the man for the job,

and say this is the man for the job, to reform the whole of the NHS in

to reform the whole of the NHS in to reform the whole of the NHS in

to reform the whole of the NHS in England, this is the man? In a way

England, this is the man? In a way England, this is the man? In a way

England, this is the man? In a way England, this is the man? In a way

it would be easy for us to make him it would be easy for us to make him

it would be easy for us to make him the fall guy and make him

the fall guy and make him the fall guy and make him

responsible for everything. I think responsible for everything. I think

responsible for everything. I think the problems go much deeper than

the problems go much deeper than the problems go much deeper than

the problems go much deeper than that. There has to be a bit of

that. There has to be a bit of political accountability here. Who

political accountability here. Who political accountability here. Who

political accountability here. Who was in charge at that time. He was

was in charge at that time. He was was in charge at that time. He was

was in charge at that time. He was a civil servant carrying out, in a

a civil servant carrying out, in a sense, his responsibility, but

sense, his responsibility, but sense, his responsibility, but

there has to be political there has to be political

there has to be political responsibility for the way in which

responsibility for the way in which responsibility for the way in which

responsibility for the way in which the NHS was run. And the fact that

the NHS was run. And the fact that the NHS was run. And the fact that

targets in a way trumped everything. targets in a way trumped everything.

targets in a way trumped everything. We lost sight of patient care,

We lost sight of patient care, We lost sight of patient care,

We lost sight of patient care, which has to be the most important

which has to be the most important which has to be the most important

which has to be the most important thing. A quick one before I finish

thing. A quick one before I finish thing. A quick one before I finish

thing. A quick one before I finish on this, this is days from this

on this, this is days from this on this, this is days from this

change, and he himself is saying change, and he himself is saying

change, and he himself is saying these are the most critical days

these are the most critical days these are the most critical days

these are the most critical days for the NHS coming up. Yet there

for the NHS coming up. Yet there for the NHS coming up. Yet there

for the NHS coming up. Yet there was an abitary dismissal of a key

was an abitary dismissal of a key was an abitary dismissal of a key

element of the -- an arbitary element of the -- an arbitary

element of the -- an arbitary element of the -- an arbitary

dismissal of a key element of it. dismissal of a key element of it.

dismissal of a key element of it. We gave clear commitments in the

We gave clear commitments in the We gave clear commitments in the

House of Lords about ensuring that House of Lords about ensuring that

Clinical Commissioning Groupss Clinical Commissioning Groupss

Clinical Commissioning Groupss Clinical Commissioning Groupss

would be in charge of decisions and would be in charge of decisions and

would be in charge of decisions and not forced to do competition where

not forced to do competition where not forced to do competition where

not forced to do competition where it was not appropriate. We want to

it was not appropriate. We want to it was not appropriate. We want to

make sure that the regulations make sure that the regulations

faithfully implement that faithfully implement that

faithfully implement that commitment. We will be back with

commitment. We will be back with commitment. We will be back with

commitment. We will be back with you in a few moments on another

you in a few moments on another you in a few moments on another

subject. With me is Sean Worth, subject. With me is Sean Worth,

subject. With me is Sean Worth, former special adviser to David

former special adviser to David former special adviser to David

Cameron, who now works at the Cameron, who now works at the

Cameron, who now works at the think-tank, Policy Exchange, and in

think-tank, Policy Exchange, and in think-tank, Policy Exchange, and in

Plymouth is Dr Heather Wood, who Plymouth is Dr Heather Wood, who

led the healthcare investigation led the healthcare investigation

led the healthcare investigation into the Mid Staffordshire Health

into the Mid Staffordshire Health into the Mid Staffordshire Health

Trust. It looks like David Trust. It looks like David

Trust. It looks like David Trust. It looks like David

Nicholson is here to stay? I find Nicholson is here to stay? I find

Nicholson is here to stay? I find it extraordinary if the only person

it extraordinary if the only person it extraordinary if the only person

it extraordinary if the only person thought able to lead the NHS is the

thought able to lead the NHS is the thought able to lead the NHS is the

one who absolutely personifies the one who absolutely personifies the

one who absolutely personifies the command and control culture, indeed

command and control culture, indeed command and control culture, indeed

command and control culture, indeed the culture of fear that has led

the culture of fear that has led the culture of fear that has led

our NHS into such troubled waters. our NHS into such troubled waters.

our NHS into such troubled waters. I can't believe that the reforms

I can't believe that the reforms I can't believe that the reforms

are so stablising that only are so stablising that only

are so stablising that only Nicholson is the answer. Because

Nicholson is the answer. Because Nicholson is the answer. Because

the truth is, that people will the truth is, that people will

the truth is, that people will the truth is, that people will

still be frightened while he is in still be frightened while he is in

still be frightened while he is in still be frightened while he is in

charge. I feel that. Let me put it charge. I feel that. Let me put it

charge. I feel that. Let me put it to Sean Worth, people will be

to Sean Worth, people will be to Sean Worth, people will be

frightened, people will not have frightened, people will not have

frightened, people will not have confidence in Sir David Nicholson?

confidence in Sir David Nicholson? confidence in Sir David Nicholson?

I'm not going to defend David I'm not going to defend David

I'm not going to defend David I'm not going to defend David

Nicholson, he needs to look in the Nicholson, he needs to look in the

Nicholson, he needs to look in the Nicholson, he needs to look in the

mirror and say did I do everything mirror and say did I do everything

mirror and say did I do everything mirror and say did I do everything

I could to prevent that. I think it I could to prevent that. I think it

I could to prevent that. I think it I could to prevent that. I think it

has to go much further than that. I has to go much further than that. I

has to go much further than that. I think the campaigners, the families

think the campaigners, the families think the campaigners, the families

think the campaigners, the families of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes,

of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes, of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes,

of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes, they want their head on a spike but

they want their head on a spike but they want their head on a spike but

they want their head on a spike but if you look at the public inquiry,

if you look at the public inquiry, if you look at the public inquiry,

if you look at the public inquiry, if you look at the public inquiry,

what it said was it is not just one what it said was it is not just one

what it said was it is not just one individual, it is an entire system.

individual, it is an entire system. individual, it is an entire system.

It is an entire NHS establishment It is an entire NHS establishment

It is an entire NHS establishment that denies people choice. It hides

that denies people choice. It hides that denies people choice. It hides

performance, it doesn't allow you performance, it doesn't allow you

performance, it doesn't allow you to find out the comparative

to find out the comparative differences between different

differences between different differences between different

differences between different hospitals, or even GPs, at a local

hospitals, or even GPs, at a local hospitals, or even GPs, at a local

hospitals, or even GPs, at a local level. This is a straw man, isn't

level. This is a straw man, isn't level. This is a straw man, isn't

level. This is a straw man, isn't it t you are really going after the

it t you are really going after the it t you are really going after the

wrong target? We are not going wrong target? We are not going

wrong target? We are not going after the wrong target. Where did

after the wrong target. Where did after the wrong target. Where did

after the wrong target. Where did the system come from? He was at the

the system come from? He was at the the system come from? He was at the

heart of that system. I don't heart of that system. I don't

heart of that system. I don't heart of that system. I don't

accept for a minute that he didn't accept for a minute that he didn't

accept for a minute that he didn't accept for a minute that he didn't

know what was going on. I think know what was going on. I think

know what was going on. I think David Nicholson knows if a chief

David Nicholson knows if a chief executive sneezes. He certainly

executive sneezes. He certainly executive sneezes. He certainly

executive sneezes. He certainly knows if they are going to fail on

knows if they are going to fail on knows if they are going to fail on

finances or targets. It is finances or targets. It is

finances or targets. It is finances or targets. It is

ridiculous. He is at the heart of ridiculous. He is at the heart of

ridiculous. He is at the heart of ridiculous. He is at the heart of

it, I believe he did know what was it, I believe he did know what was

it, I believe he did know what was it, I believe he did know what was

going on. What worries me is this going on. What worries me is this

going on. What worries me is this man, who epitomises the type of

man, who epitomises the type of ruthless management that means

ruthless management that means ruthless management that means

succeed at all cost, those costs succeed at all cost, those costs

succeed at all cost, those costs were too high for patients. Sean

were too high for patients. Sean were too high for patients. Sean

were too high for patients. Sean Worth, is there a danger that he is

Worth, is there a danger that he is omnipotent, however much the

omnipotent, however much the omnipotent, however much the

Government talk about the system, Government talk about the system,

Government talk about the system, Government talk about the system,

it all comes back to command and it all comes back to command and

control? Any seriously senior control? Any seriously senior

control? Any seriously senior politicians are not calling for

politicians are not calling for politicians are not calling for

hissed head. He is incredibly hissed head. He is incredibly

knowledgeable about the system. knowledgeable about the system.

knowledgeable about the system. What I found really interesting

What I found really interesting What I found really interesting

What I found really interesting today was when he went through his

today was when he went through his today was when he went through his

evidence with the MPs in this evidence with the MPs in this

evidence with the MPs in this committee, it was very clear that

committee, it was very clear that committee, it was very clear that

everybody is pointing the blame at everybody is pointing the blame at

everybody is pointing the blame at everybody is pointing the blame at

him, and he tried as far as he him, and he tried as far as he

him, and he tried as far as he could, he couldn't quite do it,

could, he couldn't quite do it, could, he couldn't quite do it,

could, he couldn't quite do it, because he a civil servant, he was

because he a civil servant, he was because he a civil servant, he was

saying he's acting on behalf of saying he's acting on behalf of

saying he's acting on behalf of politicians who set the framework.

politicians who set the framework. politicians who set the framework.

And the astonishing thing for me, And the astonishing thing for me,

And the astonishing thing for me, as Norman Lamb said earlier, nobody

as Norman Lamb said earlier, nobody as Norman Lamb said earlier, nobody

is pointing the finger who anyone is pointing the finger who anyone

is pointing the finger who anyone is pointing the finger who anyone

who was actually in charge of the who was actually in charge of the

who was actually in charge of the policy. Which is a political issue.

policy. Which is a political issue. policy. Which is a political issue.

That is interesting, isn't it. It That is interesting, isn't it. It

That is interesting, isn't it. It was extraordinary that it rocked

was extraordinary that it rocked was extraordinary that it rocked

the NHS. People need to understand the NHS. People need to understand

the NHS. People need to understand that Mid Staffs was a really

that Mid Staffs was a really that Mid Staffs was a really

watershed moment for the NHS, and watershed moment for the NHS, and

watershed moment for the NHS, and relatives still don't feel they

relatives still don't feel they relatives still don't feel they

have had redress, or resolution? have had redress, or resolution?

have had redress, or resolution? have had redress, or resolution?

This is why it is so important not This is why it is so important not

This is why it is so important not This is why it is so important not

to focus on one individual. If the to focus on one individual. If the

to focus on one individual. If the to focus on one individual. If the

guy has got problems then he should guy has got problems then he should

guy has got problems then he should guy has got problems then he should

go, but I think he will have to go, but I think he will have to

go, but I think he will have to look at himself and politicians

look at himself and politicians look at himself and politicians

look at himself and politicians have to do that. We need more voice

have to do that. We need more voice have to do that. We need more voice

in the NHS, much more information in the NHS, much more information

in the NHS, much more information in the NHS, much more information

about what it does, and the results about what it does, and the results

about what it does, and the results it delivers for patients. I would

it delivers for patients. I would say more competition between

say more competition between say more competition between

different providers, if you don't different providers, if you don't

different providers, if you don't like one, like Mid Staffs. You

like one, like Mid Staffs. You like one, like Mid Staffs. You

could go somewhere else. You don't could go somewhere else. You don't

could go somewhere else. You don't could go somewhere else. You don't

like the roll back from the element like the roll back from the element

like the roll back from the element of xetti, which you regard as

of xetti, which you regard as of xetti, which you regard as

simply being political? You mean simply being political? You mean

simply being political? You mean the alleged U-turn on competition

the alleged U-turn on competition the alleged U-turn on competition

the alleged U-turn on competition today. The fact about that is there

today. The fact about that is there today. The fact about that is there

was a competition regime put in was a competition regime put in

was a competition regime put in place by the previous Government,

place by the previous Government, place by the previous Government,

which did expose the NHS to which did expose the NHS to

which did expose the NHS to competition for many years, that is

competition for many years, that is competition for many years, that is

fine. The exact is, however, that fine. The exact is, however, that

fine. The exact is, however, that fine. The exact is, however, that

the firm that is can come in and the firm that is can come in and

the firm that is can come in and the firm that is can come in and

try to compete in the NHS, got try to compete in the NHS, got

try to compete in the NHS, got try to compete in the NHS, got

signed off by a Secretary of State, signed off by a Secretary of State,

signed off by a Secretary of State, a politician, rather than having

a politician, rather than having a politician, rather than having

a politician, rather than having a politician, rather than having

that out in the open and done by a that out in the open and done by a

that out in the open and done by a regulator. That is what the

regulator. That is what the regulator. That is what the

regulations were supposed to do regulations were supposed to do

nobody quite understands that. nobody quite understands that.

nobody quite understands that. Heather Wood what Sean Worth is

Heather Wood what Sean Worth is Heather Wood what Sean Worth is

Heather Wood what Sean Worth is saying that really in the end it is

saying that really in the end it is saying that really in the end it is

saying that really in the end it is saying that really in the end it is

not down to one man, it is down to not down to one man, it is down to

not down to one man, it is down to a whole host of reforms,

a whole host of reforms, essentially by politicians, and

essentially by politicians, and essentially by politicians, and

essentially by politicians, and really you have just got to get on

really you have just got to get on really you have just got to get on

really you have just got to get on and deal with it? What I would say

and deal with it? What I would say and deal with it? What I would say

and deal with it? What I would say is we have nurses up before the NMC,

is we have nurses up before the NMC, is we have nurses up before the NMC,

I don't particularly want to plead I don't particularly want to plead

I don't particularly want to plead their case, but they didn't fix

their case, but they didn't fix their case, but they didn't fix

those targets, or bully people on those targets, or bully people on

those targets, or bully people on those targets, or bully people on

their own. They did it because they their own. They did it because they

their own. They did it because they their own. They did it because they

were told to do it by their manager, were told to do it by their manager,

were told to do it by their manager, were told to do it by their manager,

were told to do it by their manager, who were told to do it by the SHA,

who were told to do it by the SHA, who were told to do it by the SHA,

who were told to do it by the SHA, who were told to do it by the

who were told to do it by the who were told to do it by the

Department of Health. We have been Department of Health. We have been

Department of Health. We have been through this with Bristol. We need

through this with Bristol. We need through this with Bristol. We need

to get management back with to get management back with

to get management back with clinicians and we need managers who

clinicians and we need managers who clinicians and we need managers who

support patients, not who run a support patients, not who run a

support patients, not who run a service regardless of the cost to

patients. patients.

patients. Thank you very much indeed. Still

Thank you very much indeed. Still Thank you very much indeed. Still

Thank you very much indeed. Still to come on the programme, we will

to come on the programme, we will to come on the programme, we will

have more on the Venezuelan have more on the Venezuelan

have more on the Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez, whose death

President, Hugo Chavez, whose death President, Hugo Chavez, whose death

was announced a short time ago. was announced a short time ago.

was announced a short time ago. Suicide is an issue not often

Suicide is an issue not often Suicide is an issue not often

discussed in our society. That, discussed in our society. That,

discussed in our society. That, perhaps, is one reason why those

perhaps, is one reason why those perhaps, is one reason why those

perhaps, is one reason why those who contemplate it find it so hard

who contemplate it find it so hard to seek help.

to seek help. to seek help.

And recent figures from the office And recent figures from the office

And recent figures from the office of national statics, show in

of national statics, show in particular suicides amongst middle-

particular suicides amongst middle- particular suicides amongst middle-

aged men are on the rise. aged men are on the rise.

aged men are on the rise. Tonight we are talking about these

Tonight we are talking about these Tonight we are talking about these

suicides, and the question is why suicides, and the question is why

suicides, and the question is why suicides, and the question is why

and what can be done to bring it and what can be done to bring it

and what can be done to bring it down. Historically, at least twice

down. Historically, at least twice down. Historically, at least twice

down. Historically, at least twice as many men and women have taken

as many men and women have taken as many men and women have taken

their own lives, a gap that's their own lives, a gap that's

their own lives, a gap that's widened to nearly three-times as

widened to nearly three-times as many in recent years.

many in recent years. many in recent years.

Over the past 30 years the Over the past 30 years the

Over the past 30 years the instances of female suicide have

instances of female suicide have instances of female suicide have

fallen further and more steadily fallen further and more steadily

fallen further and more steadily fallen further and more steadily

than those of men. The rate of male than those of men. The rate of male

than those of men. The rate of male suicides is highest in the 30-44

suicides is highest in the 30-44 suicides is highest in the 30-44

age bracket. However, from 2007 age bracket. However, from 2007

age bracket. However, from 2007 age bracket. However, from 2007

there has been a marked increase in there has been a marked increase in

there has been a marked increase in the 45-59 age group, which unlike

the 45-59 age group, which unlike the 45-59 age group, which unlike

any other age ranges hasn't dropped any other age ranges hasn't dropped

any other age ranges hasn't dropped any other age ranges hasn't dropped

since. So what is driving this male since. So what is driving this male

since. So what is driving this male despair. We asked Radio 5 Men's

despair. We asked Radio 5 Men's despair. We asked Radio 5 Men's

Hour presenter to break down the taboo.

taboo. taboo.

taboo. It is very hard for men just simply

It is very hard for men just simply It is very hard for men just simply

to say, I need help. to say, I need help.

to say, I need help. to say, I need help.

It creeps up on you so slowly until It creeps up on you so slowly until

It creeps up on you so slowly until It creeps up on you so slowly until

all of a sudden, you know, you are all of a sudden, you know, you are

at the edge. at the edge.

at the edge. at the edge.

He talked to his best friend half He talked to his best friend half

He talked to his best friend half He talked to his best friend half

an hour before he died, and he gave an hour before he died, and he gave

an hour before he died, and he gave nothing away. We don't do this

enough. enough.

enough. Gather to talk openly about male

Gather to talk openly about male emotional vunabilities, the

emotional vunabilities, the emotional vunabilities, the

emotional vunabilities, the pressures we face. To shed a little

pressures we face. To shed a little pressures we face. To shed a little

light on this darkest of statistics, light on this darkest of statistics,

light on this darkest of statistics, that men are three-times more

that men are three-times more that men are three-times more

that men are three-times more likely to take their own lives. I

likely to take their own lives. I likely to take their own lives. I

have brought together a group with have brought together a group with

have brought together a group with direct experience, men who have

attempted suicide. attempted suicide.

attempted suicide. The families left behind. And

The families left behind. And mental health professionals.

mental health professionals. mental health professionals.

mental health professionals. It is coming up for a year almost

It is coming up for a year almost It is coming up for a year almost

It is coming up for a year almost to the week since you attempt today

to the week since you attempt today to the week since you attempt today

to the week since you attempt today to the week since you attempt today

take your own life. It is, it is -- take your own life. It is, it is --

take your own life. It is, it is -- take your own life. It is, it is --

Attempted to take your own life. Attempted to take your own life.

Attempted to take your own life. Attempted to take your own life.

is, the mind is a funny thing. It is, the mind is a funny thing. It

is, the mind is a funny thing. It is funny how you cannot forget

is funny how you cannot forget is funny how you cannot forget

is funny how you cannot forget things but put things to one side.

things but put things to one side. things but put things to one side.

things but put things to one side. When you say it like that it hits

When you say it like that it hits When you say it like that it hits

When you say it like that it hits you, I feel that very raw. It is

you, I feel that very raw. It is you, I feel that very raw. It is

amazing the progress you can make amazing the progress you can make

amazing the progress you can make amazing the progress you can make

in a year. What was going on with in a year. What was going on with

in a year. What was going on with in a year. What was going on with

in a year. What was going on with me, I had set up a new company, we

me, I had set up a new company, we me, I had set up a new company, we

me, I had set up a new company, we had gone through IVF, which is a

had gone through IVF, which is a had gone through IVF, which is a

very stressful thing to go through, very stressful thing to go through,

very stressful thing to go through, very stressful thing to go through,

very stressful thing to go through, I had a court case that I was being

I had a court case that I was being I had a court case that I was being

prosecuted for assault. My marriage prosecuted for assault. My marriage

prosecuted for assault. My marriage prosecuted for assault. My marriage

was not in a good place. If you was not in a good place. If you

was not in a good place. If you was not in a good place. If you

were to write down all those things were to write down all those things

were to write down all those things were to write down all those things

on a piece of paper even for the on a piece of paper even for the

strongest people actually strongest people actually

strongest people actually everything was crumbling apart. I

everything was crumbling apart. I everything was crumbling apart. I

couldn't cope. I tried to commit couldn't cope. I tried to commit

couldn't cope. I tried to commit couldn't cope. I tried to commit

suicide. It is very hard for men suicide. It is very hard for men

suicide. It is very hard for men suicide. It is very hard for men

just simply to say I need help. just simply to say I need help.

just simply to say I need help. just simply to say I need help.

Because men are meant to be tough. Because men are meant to be tough.

Because men are meant to be tough. Sam's story is incredibly common,

Sam's story is incredibly common, Sam's story is incredibly common,

Sam's story is incredibly common, and I think that there will be

and I think that there will be and I think that there will be

thousands of men out there seeing thousands of men out there seeing

thousands of men out there seeing that and knowing exactly where you

that and knowing exactly where you that and knowing exactly where you

that and knowing exactly where you that and knowing exactly where you

have been. There is 12 men a day in have been. There is 12 men a day in

have been. There is 12 men a day in have been. There is 12 men a day in

the UK take their lives. That is the UK take their lives. That is

the UK take their lives. That is the UK take their lives. That is

for 2011. The last five years has for 2011. The last five years has

for 2011. The last five years has seen a sharp rise in suicides

seen a sharp rise in suicides seen a sharp rise in suicides

seen a sharp rise in suicides amongst men in their 40s and early

amongst men in their 40s and early amongst men in their 40s and early

amongst men in their 40s and early 50s. In these times it is about

50s. In these times it is about 50s. In these times it is about

50s. In these times it is about economic loss. You know, loss of a

economic loss. You know, loss of a economic loss. You know, loss of a

economic loss. You know, loss of a job, debt, loss of a career, the

job, debt, loss of a career, the job, debt, loss of a career, the

profile of people who complete profile of people who complete

profile of people who complete suicide is very different from the

suicide is very different from the suicide is very different from the

suicide is very different from the profile of people who come and look

profile of people who come and look profile of people who come and look

for help. There is this population for help. There is this population

for help. There is this population out there that psychiatrists like

out there that psychiatrists like out there that psychiatrists like

out there that psychiatrists like myself don't get to see. The first

myself don't get to see. The first myself don't get to see. The first

myself don't get to see. The first family might hear of it is their

family might hear of it is their family might hear of it is their

family might hear of it is their life is lost. I can only speak for

life is lost. I can only speak for life is lost. I can only speak for

life is lost. I can only speak for Guy as I knew him. I often think

Guy as I knew him. I often think Guy as I knew him. I often think

had he spoken to people, friend, had he spoken to people, friend,

had he spoken to people, friend, had he spoken to people, friend,

you know, how different it would be. you know, how different it would be.

you know, how different it would be. you know, how different it would be.

you know, how different it would be. How long ago did he die? It will be

How long ago did he die? It will be How long ago did he die? It will be

six years this June. It hadn't six years this June. It hadn't

six years this June. It hadn't six years this June. It hadn't

crossed my mind, we did end up crossed my mind, we did end up

crossed my mind, we did end up crossed my mind, we did end up

separating, I know he did go down separating, I know he did go down

separating, I know he did go down hill from there, and he became

hill from there, and he became hill from there, and he became

hill from there, and he became quite depressed, but he was very up

quite depressed, but he was very up quite depressed, but he was very up

and down. He had mentioned it and down. He had mentioned it

and down. He had mentioned it before, and I had never believed

before, and I had never believed before, and I had never believed

before, and I had never believed that he would do that. I didn't.

that he would do that. I didn't. that he would do that. I didn't.

That is something I felt guilty That is something I felt guilty

That is something I felt guilty That is something I felt guilty

about for a very, very long time. I about for a very, very long time. I

about for a very, very long time. I about for a very, very long time. I

about for a very, very long time. I had no idea that he would do it. I

had no idea that he would do it. I had no idea that he would do it. I

had no idea that he would do it. I was so shocked when he actually did

was so shocked when he actually did was so shocked when he actually did

was so shocked when he actually did it. I just, you know, people say

it. I just, you know, people say it. I just, you know, people say

it. I just, you know, people say all sorts of things when they are

all sorts of things when they are all sorts of things when they are

going through a difficult time, and going through a difficult time, and

breakdowns of relationships. But, breakdowns of relationships. But,

breakdowns of relationships. But, breakdowns of relationships. But,

no, I never thought he would do it. no, I never thought he would do it.

no, I never thought he would do it. no, I never thought he would do it.

If I thought he would have done it, If I thought he would have done it,

If I thought he would have done it, If I thought he would have done it,

I would have, you know... Done my I would have, you know... Done my

I would have, you know... Done my I would have, you know... Done my

best, what I know now, I would have best, what I know now, I would have

best, what I know now, I would have best, what I know now, I would have

tried to help him. When you heard tried to help him. When you heard

tried to help him. When you heard tried to help him. When you heard

the news, Sorry. There is anger and the news, Sorry. There is anger and

the news, Sorry. There is anger and the news, Sorry. There is anger and

upset and there is no-one to direct upset and there is no-one to direct

upset and there is no-one to direct upset and there is no-one to direct

it at other than the person. You it at other than the person. You

it at other than the person. You don't want that because you miss

don't want that because you miss don't want that because you miss

don't want that because you miss them and care about them, but you

them and care about them, but you them and care about them, but you

them and care about them, but you are also so angry that they have

are also so angry that they have are also so angry that they have

left you in this situation. left you in this situation.

left you in this situation. Eventually I did forgive him. I

Eventually I did forgive him. I Eventually I did forgive him. I

understood, and now I understand understood, and now I understand

understood, and now I understand understood, and now I understand

why he did it, and I accept the why he did it, and I accept the

why he did it, and I accept the why he did it, and I accept the

fact that he was unwell. I found a fact that he was unwell. I found a

fact that he was unwell. I found a fact that he was unwell. I found a

lot of peace now, with it all. I lot of peace now, with it all. I

lot of peace now, with it all. I lot of peace now, with it all. I

understand that he was just in such understand that he was just in such

understand that he was just in such understand that he was just in such

despair, and that was his only way. despair, and that was his only way.

despair, and that was his only way. despair, and that was his only way.

He honestly, and I know this, he He honestly, and I know this, he

He honestly, and I know this, he He honestly, and I know this, he

honestly felt that we would all be honestly felt that we would all be

honestly felt that we would all be better off without him. Obviously

better off without him. Obviously better off without him. Obviously

better off without him. Obviously that's not the case. That's what he

that's not the case. That's what he that's not the case. That's what he

truly believed. I just feel really, truly believed. I just feel really,

truly believed. I just feel really, really sad that he couldn't have

really sad that he couldn't have really sad that he couldn't have

come forward gone and spoken to come forward gone and spoken to

come forward gone and spoken to somebody. He talked to his best

somebody. He talked to his best somebody. He talked to his best

somebody. He talked to his best friend half an hour before he died,

friend half an hour before he died, friend half an hour before he died,

friend half an hour before he died, he gave nothing away about what he

he gave nothing away about what he was going to do.

was going to do. was going to do.

was going to do. I probably would like to tell you

I probably would like to tell you I probably would like to tell you

that whether it gives you some that whether it gives you some

that whether it gives you some that whether it gives you some

comfort or what I don't know, but comfort or what I don't know, but

comfort or what I don't know, but comfort or what I don't know, but

the truth is, when you are at that the truth is, when you are at that

the truth is, when you are at that the truth is, when you are at that

stage you don't have the ability to stage you don't have the ability to

stage you don't have the ability to rationalise. So I have got two

rationalise. So I have got two rationalise. So I have got two

rationalise. So I have got two children who were, one was in his

children who were, one was in his children who were, one was in his

children who were, one was in his teen, one had just turned 20, you

teen, one had just turned 20, you teen, one had just turned 20, you

teen, one had just turned 20, you can't think of them. You don't have

can't think of them. You don't have can't think of them. You don't have

the ability to think rationally and the ability to think rationally and

the ability to think rationally and put things into some sort of

put things into some sort of put things into some sort of

perspective where you can say how perspective where you can say how

perspective where you can say how perspective where you can say how

are they going to cope with it. How are they going to cope with it. How

are they going to cope with it. How are they going to cope with it. How

will they deal with what I have will they deal with what I have

will they deal with what I have done. Those thoughts aren't there.

done. Those thoughts aren't there. done. Those thoughts aren't there.

done. Those thoughts aren't there. In a way that is comforting to hear.

In a way that is comforting to hear. In a way that is comforting to hear.

In a way that is comforting to hear. That is a question I have always

That is a question I have always That is a question I have always

That is a question I have always wondered. Was he thinking of me and

wondered. Was he thinking of me and the children, particularly, having

the children, particularly, having the children, particularly, having

dropped them off at school that dropped them off at school that

dropped them off at school that morning. Surely if you are thinking

morning. Surely if you are thinking morning. Surely if you are thinking

morning. Surely if you are thinking about that, you couldn't do it. You

about that, you couldn't do it. You about that, you couldn't do it. You

saying that I really appreciate. saying that I really appreciate.

saying that I really appreciate. saying that I really appreciate.

Because it helps kind put my mind a Because it helps kind put my mind a

Because it helps kind put my mind a Because it helps kind put my mind a

little bit more at peace that he little bit more at peace that he

little bit more at peace that he was too far gone with the

was too far gone with the was too far gone with the

depression to really feel the depression to really feel the

depression to really feel the depression to really feel the

emotions. I guess you have to be emotions. I guess you have to be

completely detatched emotion-wise completely detatched emotion-wise

completely detatched emotion-wise completely detatched emotion-wise

completely detatched emotion-wise to be able to do that. I mean I

to be able to do that. I mean I to be able to do that. I mean I

suppose in those moments part of suppose in those moments part of

suppose in those moments part of the reason that would have pulled

the reason that would have pulled the reason that would have pulled

the reason that would have pulled you back was it your family, was it

you back was it your family, was it you back was it your family, was it

you back was it your family, was it thoughts of that, or was it just

thoughts of that, or was it just thoughts of that, or was it just

that you physically couldn't do that you physically couldn't do

that you physically couldn't do that you physically couldn't do

that? All you can think about is that? All you can think about is

that? All you can think about is ending the anguish and the pain,

ending the anguish and the pain, ending the anguish and the pain,

ending the anguish and the pain, the mental pain, it is not a

the mental pain, it is not a the mental pain, it is not a

physical pain, which would be physical pain, which would be

physical pain, which would be physical pain, which would be

easier to deal with if it was a easier to deal with if it was a

easier to deal with if it was a physical pain, you would have

physical pain, you would have physical pain, you would have

something that you could treat. something that you could treat.

something that you could treat. something that you could treat.

When you are there and you have When you are there and you have

When you are there and you have When you are there and you have

that mental anguish, it is a cloud, that mental anguish, it is a cloud,

that mental anguish, it is a cloud, a black cloud that completely

a black cloud that completely a black cloud that completely

invessel lops you, and you can't invessel lops you, and you can't

invessel lops you, and you can't see through -- invessel lops you

see through -- invessel lops you see through -- invessel lops you

see through -- invessel lops you and you can't -- venvelopes you and

and you can't -- venvelopes you and and you can't -- venvelopes you and

and you can't -- venvelopes you and you couldn't see through it. It was

you couldn't see through it. It was you couldn't see through it. It was

a redundancy, and a relationship a redundancy, and a relationship

a redundancy, and a relationship breakdown, and I left the

breakdown, and I left the breakdown, and I left the

relationship with nothing, I became relationship with nothing, I became

relationship with nothing, I became homeless. It is a horrible

homeless. It is a horrible homeless. It is a horrible

homeless. It is a horrible situation to think you are set in

situation to think you are set in situation to think you are set in

situation to think you are set in life, and all of a sudden it is

life, and all of a sudden it is life, and all of a sudden it is

life, and all of a sudden it is wiped out, you are in your mid-40s

wiped out, you are in your mid-40s wiped out, you are in your mid-40s

and suddenly you are thinking you and suddenly you are thinking you

and suddenly you are thinking you have to start again with nothing.

have to start again with nothing. have to start again with nothing.

It was a frightening prospect. It It was a frightening prospect. It

It was a frightening prospect. It was pure chance that stopped me.

was pure chance that stopped me. was pure chance that stopped me.

What happened was the night before What happened was the night before

What happened was the night before What happened was the night before

I happened to look on the Internet I happened to look on the Internet

I happened to look on the Internet I happened to look on the Internet

and got a number for the Samaritans. and got a number for the Samaritans.

and got a number for the Samaritans. and got a number for the Samaritans.

I rang the number on my mobile I rang the number on my mobile

I rang the number on my mobile phone, but somebody answered and I

phone, but somebody answered and I phone, but somebody answered and I

disconnected the ball. I just disconnected the ball. I just

disconnected the ball. I just disconnected the ball. I just

didn't feel like I could speak to didn't feel like I could speak to

didn't feel like I could speak to didn't feel like I could speak to

anybody. So the next day when the anybody. So the next day when the

anybody. So the next day when the anybody. So the next day when the

event was just about to happen I event was just about to happen I

event was just about to happen I event was just about to happen I

got my phone out of the pocket and got my phone out of the pocket and

got my phone out of the pocket and started going through the last

started going through the last started going through the last

started going through the last dialed number on there, and I was

dialed number on there, and I was dialed number on there, and I was

dialed number on there, and I was looking to see who I had been

looking to see who I had been looking to see who I had been

ringing recently I was going ringing recently I was going

ringing recently I was going through it and thinking this person

through it and thinking this person through it and thinking this person

might miss me, and this person might miss me, and this person

might miss me, and this person probably won't care, and whatever,

probably won't care, and whatever, whatever. Eventually I scrolled

whatever. Eventually I scrolled whatever. Eventually I scrolled

down to the Samaritans number and down to the Samaritans number and

down to the Samaritans number and down to the Samaritans number and

to this day I still don't know what to this day I still don't know what

to this day I still don't know what to this day I still don't know what

made me press the dial button but I made me press the dial button but I

made me press the dial button but I made me press the dial button but I

did, you know that was what stopped did, you know that was what stopped

did, you know that was what stopped did, you know that was what stopped

me from doing what I was going to me from doing what I was going to

me from doing what I was going to me from doing what I was going to

me from doing what I was going to do. I must admit I do find it hard

do. I must admit I do find it hard do. I must admit I do find it hard

do. I must admit I do find it hard to look at you guys. Because you

to look at you guys. Because you to look at you guys. Because you

to look at you guys. Because you are a reminder of what my family

are a reminder of what my family are a reminder of what my family

could have been going through. That could have been going through. That

could have been going through. That could have been going through. That

is really tough to see you and see is really tough to see you and see

is really tough to see you and see you suffering and thinking I could

you suffering and thinking I could you suffering and thinking I could

have put my family through that. have put my family through that.

have put my family through that. Depression is a disease of

Depression is a disease of Depression is a disease of

isolation. When you isolate you isolation. When you isolate you

isolation. When you isolate you isolation. When you isolate you

disconnect. I think that the way we disconnect. I think that the way we

disconnect. I think that the way we disconnect. I think that the way we

are leading our lives at the moment, are leading our lives at the moment,

are leading our lives at the moment, and in particular men, we are

and in particular men, we are and in particular men, we are

disconnecting with our fellow human disconnecting with our fellow human

disconnecting with our fellow human disconnecting with our fellow human

beings, and I think that is a beings, and I think that is a

beings, and I think that is a beings, and I think that is a

problem that we may be not looking problem that we may be not looking

problem that we may be not looking problem that we may be not looking

at. And we need to. We know from at. And we need to. We know from

at. And we need to. We know from the studies from the work by

the studies from the work by the studies from the work by

Liverpool University, that we can Liverpool University, that we can

Liverpool University, that we can Liverpool University, that we can

see a thousand more suicides as a see a thousand more suicides as a

see a thousand more suicides as a result of the economic recession,

result of the economic recession, result of the economic recession,

result of the economic recession, 800 of which will be men. But does

800 of which will be men. But does 800 of which will be men. But does

background play some factor in this, background play some factor in this,

background play some factor in this, background play some factor in this,

if you are poor and lower down the if you are poor and lower down the

if you are poor and lower down the socioeconomic scale, are you more

socioeconomic scale, are you more socioeconomic scale, are you more

socioeconomic scale, are you more likely to end up taking your life?

likely to end up taking your life? likely to end up taking your life?

It is true that lower socioeconomic It is true that lower socioeconomic

It is true that lower socioeconomic groups are more likely to take

groups are more likely to take groups are more likely to take

their lives. But suicide don't have their lives. But suicide don't have

their lives. But suicide don't have great respect for people in the

great respect for people in the great respect for people in the

higher incomes. It just don't work higher incomes. It just don't work

higher incomes. It just don't work higher incomes. It just don't work

out that way. It might not be out that way. It might not be

out that way. It might not be out that way. It might not be

fashionable to say so, but do you fashionable to say so, but do you

fashionable to say so, but do you think there is any correlation

think there is any correlation think there is any correlation

between feminism and the rise of between feminism and the rise of

between feminism and the rise of female equality and opportunity and

female equality and opportunity and female equality and opportunity and

female equality and opportunity and the rates of where men are now?

the rates of where men are now? the rates of where men are now?

think feminism and equality is think feminism and equality is

think feminism and equality is great, but I think men have

great, but I think men have great, but I think men have

great, but I think men have forgotten a lot about what men have

forgotten a lot about what men have forgotten a lot about what men have

forgotten a lot about what men have to go through as well. Who do you

to go through as well. Who do you to go through as well. Who do you

to go through as well. Who do you talk to, you go for a pint with

talk to, you go for a pint with talk to, you go for a pint with

talk to, you go for a pint with your mate and you won't talk about

your mate and you won't talk about your mate and you won't talk about

those sorts of things with your those sorts of things with your

those sorts of things with your those sorts of things with your

mates, and start crying in front of mates, and start crying in front of

mates, and start crying in front of your mates. Because when you are

your mates. Because when you are your mates. Because when you are

your mates. Because when you are out for a pint you phone will soon

out for a pint you phone will soon out for a pint you phone will soon

stop ringing and you would stop stop ringing and you would stop

stop ringing and you would stop stop ringing and you would stop

getting invited out, and it will be, getting invited out, and it will be,

getting invited out, and it will be, getting invited out, and it will be,

they don't know how to deal with they don't know how to deal with

they don't know how to deal with they don't know how to deal with

that. Then you have to try and seek that. Then you have to try and seek

that. Then you have to try and seek professional help and you don't

professional help and you don't professional help and you don't

know what's happening for you. know what's happening for you.

know what's happening for you. work its, what has made the

work its, what has made the work its, what has made the

difference for you, what has made difference for you, what has made

difference for you, what has made difference for you, what has made

you sat here a year later feeling you sat here a year later feeling

you sat here a year later feeling much better about things? The one

much better about things? The one much better about things? The one

much better about things? The one key thing was group therapy. It is

key thing was group therapy. It is key thing was group therapy. It is

amazing the bond between you. That amazing the bond between you. That

helps enormously. Cognitive helps enormously. Cognitive

behavioural therapy really helped behavioural therapy really helped

behavioural therapy really helped behavioural therapy really helped

behavioural therapy really helped me, it made me look at what I was

me, it made me look at what I was me, it made me look at what I was

going through. It made me question going through. It made me question

going through. It made me question my thought process. It is quite

my thought process. It is quite my thought process. It is quite

emotional sitting here with you guy emotional sitting here with you guy

emotional sitting here with you guy emotional sitting here with you guy

its, much the same -- guys, much its, much the same -- guys, much

its, much the same -- guys, much its, much the same -- guys, much

the same as I'm so glad you have the same as I'm so glad you have

the same as I'm so glad you have the same as I'm so glad you have

sought help. I just wish Guy could sought help. I just wish Guy could

sought help. I just wish Guy could have done the same, really.

have done the same, really. have done the same, really.

For details of organisations which For details of organisations which

For details of organisations which offer advice and support visit the

With me again is the Health With me again is the Health

With me again is the Health Minister, Norman Lamb, and Claire

Minister, Norman Lamb, and Claire Minister, Norman Lamb, and Claire

Wiley from the Samaritans. These Wiley from the Samaritans. These

are distressing stories and are distressing stories and

statistics. Clearly, men in statistics. Clearly, men in

statistics. Clearly, men in particular, don't know they need

particular, don't know they need particular, don't know they need

help, and aren't getting help? help, and aren't getting help?

help, and aren't getting help? help, and aren't getting help?

I think we are often reluctant to I think we are often reluctant to

I think we are often reluctant to come forward and admit any frailty.

come forward and admit any frailty. come forward and admit any frailty.

come forward and admit any frailty. come forward and admit any frailty.

I think often we feel we have to be I think often we feel we have to be

I think often we feel we have to be strong and cope with all

strong and cope with all strong and cope with all

circumstances, and yet, often we circumstances, and yet, often we

circumstances, and yet, often we circumstances, and yet, often we

can't. One of the things that I can't. One of the things that I

can't. One of the things that I think is really important is to

think is really important is to think is really important is to

tackle the stigma of mental health. tackle the stigma of mental health.

tackle the stigma of mental health. There is a brilliant campaign

There is a brilliant campaign There is a brilliant campaign

called Time To Change, which the called Time To Change, which the

called Time To Change, which the Government is helping to fund. But

Government is helping to fund. But Government is helping to fund. But

Government is helping to fund. But it is to really tackle thised idea

it is to really tackle thised idea it is to really tackle thised idea

that mental health is anything to that mental health is anything to

that mental health is anything to that mental health is anything to

be embarrassed about. We have to be be embarrassed about. We have to be

be embarrassed about. We have to be encouraging people to come forward

encouraging people to come forward encouraging people to come forward

encouraging people to come forward if they have -- to come forward if

if they have -- to come forward if if they have -- to come forward if

they have problems. Kevin was they have problems. Kevin was

they have problems. Kevin was saying there he wouldn't have

saying there he wouldn't have saying there he wouldn't have

saying there he wouldn't have dreamt of going to the pub and

dreamt of going to the pub and dreamt of going to the pub and

telling his friends. There is a telling his friends. There is a

telling his friends. There is a particular problem around men and

particular problem around men and particular problem around men and

particular problem around men and you call it a perfect storm? What

you call it a perfect storm? What you call it a perfect storm? What

you call it a perfect storm? What we have seen is a range of social

we have seen is a range of social we have seen is a range of social

and economic changes over the last and economic changes over the last

and economic changes over the last and economic changes over the last

40 years, which means men in mid- 40 years, which means men in mid-

40 years, which means men in mid- life, from disadvantaged groups in

life, from disadvantaged groups in particular, are experiencing a

particular, are experiencing a particular, are experiencing a

perfect storm of challenges. We perfect storm of challenges. We

perfect storm of challenges. We have seen a decline of

have seen a decline of traditionally male industry

traditionally male industry traditionally male industry

industries, and recessions, and men industries, and recessions, and men

industries, and recessions, and men at mid-life are dependant on a

at mid-life are dependant on a at mid-life are dependant on a

woman for emotional support. So woman for emotional support. So

woman for emotional support. So they are fish particularly affected

they are fish particularly affected by relationship breakdown. In

by relationship breakdown. In by relationship breakdown. In

addition to that they are more addition to that they are more