Browse content similar to 26/04/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, is it wrong to avoid paying tax, if you are rich enough | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
to own one of these and happy enough to say you are Britain's | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
biggest taxpayer, are you a saint or mug? Whenever I speak you are | :00:24. | :00:31. | |
frowned upon. We need to do that taxation. For | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
certain sectors for getting away with paying very low tax. Who do we | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
want to figure on our brand-new �5 notes. Should it be him. We have | :00:40. | :00:50. | |
:00:50. | :00:53. | ||
I'm going to find out who killed Wellington. The serious incident of | :00:53. | :01:03. | |
:01:03. | :01:16. | ||
the West End hit. Why do some people pay less tax | :01:16. | :01:26. | |
:01:26. | :01:27. | ||
than they should. The punch line is the same | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
Big companies and small individuals have been named and shamed. Their | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
scams and excuses are depauornityed to make public blood boil. Tonight | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
we ask a few fundamental questions about tax. Why can't the Government | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
devise a system that prevents avoidance, and would anyone pay | :01:43. | :01:53. | |
:01:53. | :02:01. | ||
more tax than they had to. Britain's tax system is as | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
complicated as the ecosystem and around as long. An export levy was | :02:06. | :02:13. | |
exposeded by king done in 1505. Each tax has a shrew of Bolton | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
thanks to exemptions, reliefs and write-offs and loopholes, making | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
the understanding of tax only for the dedicated. To show how complex, | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
suppose a Government make as profit of �10 million this year. It should | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
pay 23% in corporation tax. If it was carrying over losses of | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
previous years of �1 million. That cuts the taxable amount by �230,000. | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
If part of the profit included the �2 million sale of a property, | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
which was then reinvested, the tax can be rolled over saving �460 | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
though though if it spent �1 million on research and development, | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
that qualifies as tax relief and allows us to write off �2867. If �1 | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
million are thanks to a patent, that is a lower rate tax saving the | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
company �130,000. That leaves a final corporation tax of �1.2 | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
million, half the headline amount. Confused? You should be. These are | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
only some of the reliefs and exemptions that can be used. It is | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
no wonder an army of well paid tax executives have grown up advising | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
Governments and companies on how best to implement tax rules, or | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
indeed how to avoid paying tax in the first place. Today the Public | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
Accounts Committee of MPs, the scourge of UK tax avoiders | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
resurfaced with the big four accountants in its sights. The big | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
four accountany firms put their experts into Treasury and HMRC and | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
help write the technical rules that become new laws, and armed with the | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
insider knowledge they go back to their companies and use that | :03:55. | :04:05. | |
knowledge to devise new schemes for tax avoidance. The PCA C was | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
unstinting in criticism of HMRC, saying it was way too cosy in its | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
relationship with big audit. One tax inspector turned author agrees. | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
The relationship between the big four and HMRC is extremely close, | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
far closer in the last ten years or so, under various initiatives to | :04:24. | :04:31. | |
relax corporate taxation in favour of the biggest companies. The | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
bigger accountany firms have been the people to go to get the | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
corporate view in the first place. But London is a megacity because it | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
attracts the finest advisers and consultants in the world. The MP | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
for the City is worried that all this fog-horning from the PAC and | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
others could jeopardise that. think the PAC were playing to the | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
gallery a little bit. I think that is to be regreted. There is no real | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
evidence that the big four are in the pockets of the Treasury. I | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
think it is a very healthy state of affairs that some of our brightest | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
best tax and accountany advisers have a chance to see the public | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
sector in action. One of the dangers here really a danger of | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
political risk, I think, if Britain is seen as a place where there are | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
arbitary decisions made about tax, we are bring anything a general | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
anti-avoidance rule as well, it might well lead to many of these | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
big international firms of accounts, and indeed throughout the financial | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
services world thinking twice about whether they want to expanned here. | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
The Government is in something of a bind, they can't exactly speak out | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
against big companies who aren't breaking the law or the letter of | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
the law. Nor can they ignore the wish of millions of voters who have | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
seen their real incomes fall because they can't avoid paying tax. | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
If the Government were to clamp down hard on big multinationals and | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
those who advise them, the danger is those companies will take their | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
business overseas to where the taxes are few and the rules fewer. | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
David Cameron has to pursue a global solution to the problem. He | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
wants the EU council President, Herman van Rompuy, to raise it at | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
the next EU summit, he will be raising it himself when he chairs | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
the G8 in June. But the OECD that brokered many of the world's | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
international tax treaties to prevent firms from being taxed | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
twice feels things may have gone too far. This is really, after 70 | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
years or whatever trying to avoid double taxation, which we all | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
agreed should be avoided, now you have double non-taxation. So the | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
thing has gone like a pendulum. We are trying to get it back, to some | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
sort of balance where there is a fair sharing of the burden. | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
Otherwise it is only the middle- classes and the SMEs that are left | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
to tax. This obviously is a politically unacceptable situation. | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
86 years ago Oliver Wendell Holmes said that taxes were the price we | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
pay for living in a civilised society. Back then companies and | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
the very rich paid most taxes. Today it is increasingly smaller | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
firms and ordinary individuals bearing most of the burden. | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
Earlier I went to meet the businessman, John Caldwell, the | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
Phones 4 You founder, shortly before he took to his racing car at | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
Brands Hatch, why not, he's worth an easy billion pounds. You have | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
been called the biggest taxpayer in Britain, does that leave you | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
feeling like a mug or an angel? Neither. You know Britain needs all | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
the tax pounds it can get. We are in very tough times, that is clear | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
to everybody. People don't realise quite how indebted the country is, | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
and what trouble the country is undergoing. We cannot afford people | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
taking tax bucks away from us, they have to be paid. I didn't pay them | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
just purely out of a sense of obligation. I paid because I did | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
think it was right, but also I wanted complete freedom in a | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
country I love more than any other. I didn't want to have to be an | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
exile and allowed 90 days back in, I wanted complete freedom. But I | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
also felt I needed to do my bit. it a kind of philanthropy? Yes, but | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
unfortunately where the people you are giving your money to are | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
frittering it away and wasting it. It feels like a mug's fill | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
lanthropy. But ultimately -- philanthropy, but ultimately it is | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
a legal obligation. Is there a temptation to avoid tax with the | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
loopholes? Every businessman needs to reduce his CoS. By reducing | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
costs and increasing profit you retain money in the business to be | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
used for expansion. Tax is one of those big costs on the business. It | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
is the responsibility of the chief executive to reduce the tax to a | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
reasonable level by fair means. it wrong then to use those | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
loopholes? This is a difficult one really. I can't say it is wrong to | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
use them because at the end of the day each company has to reduce its | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
tax bill to what it thinks is appropriate and fair, given the | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
laws of the land. But I would very much favour more pressure brought | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
to bear on people that are seen to be really taking this too far. And | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
also the general public just considering boycotting businesses | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
that are seen to be tax avoiding. And I can tell you for sure if the | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
public boycotted a retail business avoiding tax and damaged their | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
profitability they would start paying the tax. It is a name and | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
shame campaign? It is a name and shame, it has to be today. The | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
country is in a mess. I don't want to keep stressing that. But Britain | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
needs all the tax pounds it can get. We know who the companies are that | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
have been named as not full tax- payers, do you boycott any of | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
those? I don't probably deal with them. If I do I don't know that I'm | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
dealing with them. I would definitely boycott them. I would | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
encourage other people. We have to do something. What does any | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
businessman understand, he understands his bottom line. What | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
will affect the bottom line more than anything else is not taxation, | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
fair taxation, yes it is painful, it is a big cost to the business, | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
but it is nowhere near a cost as not having the profit to pay the | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
tax on. You have been converted to this line of thought, because there | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
was a time in your business when you did use the loopholes quite | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
happily? When I first set up business I wanted to retain every | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
last pound in the business to help grow it. Tax accountants started | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
flooding through the doors with tax scheme after tax scheme after tax | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
scheme, we were seduced into a low- taxation ri geem of running the | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
business. -- regime of running the business. It was perfectly fair and | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
proper, but I don't agree with it now, as a point of morality, | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
especially where we are today I don't agree that some parts of the | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
nation should get away with very, very low tax rates, meanwhile the | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
ordinary working people, as well as some corporates are paying the full | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
rate. We need to club together. Wasn't it legislation that actually | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
stopped you, wasn't it when Gordon Brown put an end to those employee | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
benefit trusts? Not really because I was already thinking these tax | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
schemes are just wrong. They are challengable. To an extent some of | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
them are perfectly fair and proper, a lot of them are leading and | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
cutting edge. Some of those can be stopped, but some are not stopped. | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
But the law can only do so much. Then what we need to create in the | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
country, a bit like speeding. At one time I could speed every day | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
and nobody would frown. It is a good line as Brands Hatch! | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
whenever I speed, try not to, whenever I speed you are frowned | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
upon. We need to do that with taxation. That it becomes immoral, | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
unket kal and against the public -- unethical and against the interest | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
for certain sectors to get away with paying very low tax. Let's | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
discuss the morality of taxation. Joining me is John Christensen, | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
brought up in jersey, but now director of the Tax Justice Network, | :12:17. | :12:27. | |
and the economist minutes ter Tim Congdon. You heard the last point | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
that he said he wanted the tax to be the new speeding or smoking, | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
something increasingly frowned upon by society, tax avoidance? | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
Governments want enterprise, enterprise comes from companies, | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
and all around the world what is happening is that Governments are | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
reducing company tax rates. Take it or leave it really. You can't have | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
all this rhetoric about enterprise and then say you want to have | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
higher taxes. Enterprise is not how you can manage your own tax bills | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
down is it? The only way you can pay tax is by producing something. | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
Producing a profit in the case of the company. And obviously if you | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
are not producing something and not generating a profit you can't pay | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
any tax. So clearly if you want nations that are prosperous, | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
companies that are profitable, I'm afraid that will happen. They can't | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
all be swallowed up in tax. This is the argument often made, John | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
Christensen, that if your aim is to get growth and encourage employment | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
and all the rest of it, don't keep hitting them. The tax rates are low | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
any way, they are very low in this country, they are much lower than | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
they were 30 years ago. Many companies are making huge profits. | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
But the company directors are making the choice to not pay that | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
tax. Some companies, multinational companies, can shift their profits | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
off to tax havens, Luxembourg or whatever, they make that choice to | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
not pay tax. Other companies here in Britain making a profit can't | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
use Luxembourg or the channel islands to shift their profits, | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
they are forced to pay tax. You had heard the point made, if people | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
really cared, and yes there is loot of public outrage and rhetoric | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
about this, if people really cared wouldn't they just boycott the | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
companies that we know don't pay what is considered to be their fair | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
share of tax? I'm very much in favour of boycotts and reputational | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
damage to those companies that choose to not pay tax when they are | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
making profits. I don't think that the tax rate in this country in any | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
way stifles innovation or enterprise, it is a very low tax | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
rate, yet companies are still choosing to avoid tax very | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
aggressively. It is certainly true that the current policy of the | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
Conservative Government is to reduce corporation tax. In fact to | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
reduce it 20%. It is certainly true that a long time ago it was 52% the | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
corporation tax rate. Things have change. But we live in a | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
competitive world. If other countries are not going to impose | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
high corporate taxes what do we do? So what would be your point then, | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
that it is fine as long as it is not illegal to do whatever you can. | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
You disagree with John Caudwell? people are obeying the law, and | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
paying taxes according to the statute book, then what is, what | :15:22. | :15:29. | |
are they supposed to be doing wrong. There has to be at some point an | :15:29. | :15:39. | |
understanding that if companies and tax-payers are abiding by the law | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
they should be left alone. Surely the Government could simplify the | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
tax system or finding a way that saying we and the public have | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
decide this is wrong, we will outlaw it like speeding or smoking | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
indoors? It is not that simple. The Prime Minister has recognised that | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
the rules set out at an international level are not fit for | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
purpose. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
Development has been charged with redesigning the rules. We need new | :16:02. | :16:08. | |
rules for the 21st century. We cannot leave it as it is at the | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
moment. To the discretion of some companies, multinational companies | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
to shift their profits to tax havens and not pay tax, whilst | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
other companies operating here in Britain just at national level have | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
to pay tax. What of the question of companies get up and leaving? | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
won't. You say that with real confidence? For decades they have | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
been saying they will. important thing is company | :16:31. | :16:39. | |
shareholders are taxed, as long as they taxed it will be difficult for | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
companies to do that. There was a 52% tax rate a few years ago. | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
Shareholders have all moved off shore, they are in tax havens | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
themselves, they are not paying tax on the dividends. That is the real | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
world we live in. Capital is offshore and not paying tax. What | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
would happen if the loopholes were closed what would happen to the tax | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
system. There is an argument which is that if more people, if everyone | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
pays their fair share of tax the tax burden actual lie goes down? | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
Let's be clear that all these things built up over a long period | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
of time, and you can't say, for example, that you can't companies | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
to invest in research and development F you want to encourage | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
them to do that you put in place incentives. The tax system has the | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
exemptions, companies use them. If you want a neutral tax system these | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
politicians, these Governments should stop talking about giving | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
them incentives for R & D and investment. Just pull back and the | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
tax rate is 30%, that's that. Governments aren't doing that. | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
People don't complain when they get cheaper on-line goods. They don't | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
complain that is a rather interesting and efficient way to do | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
your shopping now, even if the company is known to be not as forth | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
coming? We are losing jobs, small businesses are being put out of | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
business. Some companies are now putting themselves into monopoly | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
situations that means they will be making massive profits untaxed not | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
contributing this country. These companies use our infrastructure | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
and they need a good market. It is not right that they don't pay tax | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
in this country while competitors are paying tax. | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
Thank you very much. If you are looking for controversy you | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
probably won't find it on the new �5 note. Winston Churchill, not in | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
the end David Beckham, was the choice. War time leader and Nobel | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
Peace Prize win he, the choice will surprise few. Tonight we will hear | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
why his appearance may also have been a factor in the decision to | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
put him on our cash. I would say to the House as I said to those who | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
joined the Government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, | :18:53. | :19:01. | |
tears and sweat. The choice was ultimately down to the outgoing | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
Bank of England governor. Winston Churchill was a great national | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
leader, a great British statesman and perhaps most of all universally | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
recognised as such by everyone around the world. Here is a few of | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
the other people the public nominated before the Bank of | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
England made its ruling. It seems none of them were good enough for | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
the ultimate English A-list, just what does it take? | :19:26. | :19:33. | |
Before you start believing those are pound notes we should talk you | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
through this. We have historian Susannah Lipscombe and Pam West a | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
bank note collector. Thank you very much for coming in. Talk us through | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
palm you have got some of your notes here that you have collected, | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
when they are choosing these figures that are going to dominate | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
our money, it just about cultural icons or is there something to do | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
with the appearance and the look that they choose as well? They | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
often have chosen people that would be hard to imitate, for example to | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
forge. That takes part of their choice in the process. But they are | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
choosing people that have also not caused any controversy. Who are | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
iconic, who are important people that hopefully we would recognise, | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
but as long as we know we recognise sterling we are happy with the | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
pound in our pocket. What did you mean, who would be hard to forge? | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
Because you might have somebody, we have had Darwin, for instance, he | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
has a beard. A beard is often very difficult for a forger to imitate. | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
So we should look for a lot of facial hair generally on our bank | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
notes? It could be. Who else have you got here, talk us through this. | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
This is massive this one? This is the old white fiver. People often | :20:50. | :20:57. | |
say it is massive and like a fish it is "this" big. This went out in | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
the 1960, the last date of issue was the 20th September 1956, | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
followed by the lion and key five pound with the head of Britannia. | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
We moved on to Stevenson and then subsequently Elizabeth Fry our | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
current icon. We know that Winston Churchill will be next. The | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
interesting thing is why he hasn't figured before?'S A pretty obvious | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
choice, isn't he. Quite uncontroversial to go for wirblg. | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
I'm sure he -- Winston Churchill. I'm sure he deserves the honour of | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
going on a �5 note or a bigger one. Whilst it is an obvious choice it | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
means it is moving Elizabeth Fry off. She might not be that well | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
known, but she was IRA former and an important character in the | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
history that we want to tell about ourselves. And this is interesting. | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
What do you think that is, do you think we're now going for a sort of | :22:02. | :22:09. | |
great leader rather than a revolutionary? That is the first | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
thing we have to think about. We are choosing a Great War time | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
leader. Because we are in austere times and we need national unity? | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
Certainly the quote they have chosen from him is sort of | :22:19. | :22:26. | |
appealing to that sense, doesn't it. "I have nothing but blood, toil, | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
tears and sweat". It feels like the economy climate today. It is | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
interesting that Elizabeth Fry was put on the notes in 202, at a time | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
when you think they were appealing more to the sense of social reform. | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
The other thing about it. Perhaps it plays to the idea that you need | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
a beard to be hard to copy is that with Elizabeth Fry again, we won't | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
have any women but the Queen on the bank nights. There was Florence | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
Nightingale at one point? There was. But they are few and far between. | :22:55. | :23:02. | |
How is it actually chosen. Is there such a thing as a Conservative-led | :23:02. | :23:10. | |
choice as opposed to a Labour-led choice? Well Roger Withington, a | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
designer of bank notes in earlier years. He produced a list of 72 | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
names of people that would be potentially good people to have on | :23:19. | :23:27. | |
the bank note. Some of those have been chosen. I would really love to | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
see Jane Austen or the Bronte sisters. It would be lovely to see | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
another woman, apart from a great woman, the Queen. This is the other | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
thing, when we put up the ones on our screen we have chosen people | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
that the public love. The Diana figure, the Beckham, you know, the | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
musicians and so on. That is never going to happen is it? They have to | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
be dead. So from that perspective. However, these are people that we | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
know from our time, they are our historic icons. They are famous for | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
various things. They are great people, there is no doubting that. | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
But generally the bank notes have had people who have come from a | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
much earlier period in time. Does it surprise you that we choose | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
people, as we were hearing, who aren't controversial, we have not | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
been a country that is scared of controversy have we? No, that is an | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
interesting decision actually not to go for controversy. And perhaps | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
in this case we have gone for the really, really safe option. But | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
actually I think there is a bit more to it. It does seem to me that | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
the bank notes are representing a version of history. On �50 notes it | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
is telling about the Industrial Revolution. Charless Darwin, you | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
mentioned, is on another bank note. Adam Smith on another. It is the | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
sort of version of ourselves. I think that we do want to insist | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
that this version is modern and up- to-date. Even in the people it | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
chooses to represent about our history. Because this is a version | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
of history and we need to be conscious of that. Thank you very | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
much, thanks you both for coming in. It was an idea the author couldn't | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
initially contemplate that his quietly brilliant book written | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
inside the head of a troubled boy could become a musical with a live | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
audience. Of it a book he insisted about difference not disability. It | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
was a move he resisted for long. Then a few weeks ago The Curious | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
Incident of the Dog in the Night- Tmie hit the West End and the | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
audience, at least, has never looked back. Steve Smith has gone | :25:30. | :25:37. | |
to meet the author, Mark Haddon. is a book about the kid with | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
behavioural problems living in Swindon with his dad who a plumber | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
and heating engineer. As a recipe for a best seller it is not great, | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
is it? It is not good for your mental health to think I have sold | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
six million copies. I said it was like having a fantasy that your car | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
could fly. It is like people do. And then you are going down the | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
motorway one day and your car does actually fly. And you think this is | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
what I dreamed about, but it is really scaring me at the moment. It | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
is a little bit like that. It is probably easier to have a flying | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
car than sell six million copies these days. I'm going to find out | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
who killed Wellington. Somebody killed her dog? With a fork. Mark | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
Haddon's unlikely best seller about a boy with behavioural issues is | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
now a West End hit. Up for eight Olivier Awards on Sunday. | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
family Christopher? Father and mother, but mother is dead. | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
there any of you in that voice, there are theories that we're all | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
somewhere on that spectrum, particularly men! There is lots of | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
me in Christopher in a sense that the novel contains narrative | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
chapters and essays about science or religion or about evolution | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
inbetween the narrative chapters, those are me. They are my | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
obsessions chopped in little pieces and inserted into the novel. In | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
Christopher of course there are bits of me, there is bits of me in | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
everything. Haddon started out writing children's books, | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
illustrating them himself. Down to his characters and a certain boy | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
wizard children's fiction is hot property. Some take a Dance | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
Schooler view. Wasn't it most infamously Martin Amis who said if | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
he had brain-damage he could write a children's book. He hasn't | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
stepped up to the mark and proved it yet has he. There are peculiar | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
and difficult skills to writing children's books, ten years ago it | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
was film script writing courses where all the men would turn up in | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
expensive cars and pull up on the gravel and be hard work when it | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
came to working with them in workshops. Parently those courses | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
are now relaxed and the cars are a little scruffyier. The same people | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
seem to be going to the kids' writing courses turning up in | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
flashy cars and more men than you might expect. There is a lot of | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
debate about how we raise children, I wonder what thoughts you have | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
about that? It is so tempting isn't it when you sell a lot of books to | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
think you actually know what you are talking about when someone asks | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
a question about. That I don't know anything more than any other parent | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
does. I think we do get obsessed with the education of really bright | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
children. I think what school needs to do is put a huge amount of | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
effort into the kids who might get left behind. If you get a poor | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
education you're probably getting most of it at school. Therefore the | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
responsibility school has to you is so much greater. Stkpwhrpld I like | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
maths and also I like outer space and I like being on my own. | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
Haddon says he's happy to put his money where his mouth is, as the | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
royalty cheques roll in, he would like to pay more tax. It is | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
absolutely extraordinary at the moment that the money we pay to | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
disabled people for what was previously the Disability Living | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
Allowance is being cut, and at the same time I'm getting a tax cut. It | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
absolutely beggers belief. That is supposed to invent advise you as a | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
winner and achieve Tory hire more people, I think, is isn't that the | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
theory? Do you know I really don't know what the theory is. I don't | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
think there is much theory behind t I think there is a profound lack of | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
empathy behind it. You can find Mark Haddon in the book shops and | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
theatre and keep an eye out for him on the bus. I sit on a bus | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
overhearing other people's conversations. I love the fact that | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
it opens doors into 100 lives. You are sitting next to a couple of | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
elderly ladies talking about how good the Harvest Festival was this | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
year. And you think I know those lives. It is difficult to stay in | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
touch and pick up those cues that you refer to, with the best will in | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
the world? You keep travelling on the bus, don't you. I don't know, | :29:52. | :29:59. | |
do you? Not in the publishers's limo? I singularly failed to set up | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
a gilded life for myself. I'm rubbing up against ordinary people | :30:03. | :30:13. | |
:30:13. | :30:43. |