Browse content similar to 23/05/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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He was Drummer Lee Rigby of the 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment of | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
Fusiliers. He served in Afghanistan and loaves a two-year-old son Jack. | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
Yesterday he was horrifically murdered in Woolich. Two men were | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
arrested yesterday, more held today. We devote the programme to analysis | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
of this abhorrent crime. What is the extent of home-grown extremism | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
in the UK? If the Security Services knew about them could they have | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
been stopped? It is clear that would have been very hard. This is | :00:47. | :00:56. | |
a new type of political violence, simple letter, and more -- simpler | :00:56. | :01:04. | |
and more difficult to thwart. is Michael Adebolajo standing | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
behind a former leader of a banned extremist organisation did this man | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
help radicalise the murder suspect, we will challenge him. Flowers | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
today, how will yesterday's killing affect community relations. When | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
our soldiers are being attacked, it proves we are second class citizens | :01:22. | :01:32. | |
:01:32. | :01:34. | ||
in our own country. Good evening, the family of | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
murdered Drummer Lee Rigby, who was 25 from Greater Manchester, tonight | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
paid tribute to a loving son, husband, father, brother and uncle. | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
The two men suspected of killing him from known to the Security | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
Services. One has been identified as 28-year-old Michael Adebolajo | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
from Romford in Essex, a Muslim convert. Tonight, after two more | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
arrested today, we ask whether the attack was part of a larger | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
extremist grouping, or the actions of two called lone wolves. How they | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
were radicalised and whether this hate crime will impact on race and | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
communications? First I'm joined by our defence editor. How has the | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
investigation been progressing? police, interestingly, put out a | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
statement this afternoon talking in terms of a complex multifaceted | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
investigation, many lines of inquiry, that kind of thing. | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
Interesting to see them like many other people, politicians, media, | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
responding in this standard format. It is very similar language we have | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
heard after previous incidents. Yet there is something very different | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
about what has happened here. In a sense it is so obvious what | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
happened yesterday. It is not a very complex issue. Dozens of | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
witnesses, CCTV, phones, all the rest of it. In another sense it is | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
very complicated. Whether those people had any real connections | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
with others, whether there were people sheltering and inspiring | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
them to do that is a more complicated question, they are now | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
trying to get to the bottom of that. We know they were on a list of | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
suspected people by MI5, the Security Service, that has re- | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
opened questions, familiar ones again, about whether a change in | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
the law is needed. We saw the former Home Secretary, John Reid on | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
the programme, and Jack Straw today saying wider interception of | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
communications is necessary if the country really wants to be able to | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
monitor the activities of thousands of people on these lists. A as if | :03:27. | :03:34. | |
thait -- fascinating thing today is the way people have oscillated | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
their response to the situation and how to respond to this new type of | :03:40. | :03:49. | |
violence. For the police, a day of raids, six | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
properties were targeted, including five in London and one in Lincoln. | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
They were connected to the two suspects in yesterday's attack. | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
Michael Adebolajo, seen here in 207 at a demonstration of the Al- | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
Muhajiroun group, and he had had a regard of activism. One man | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
convicted of terrorism offences remembers Adebolajo well. | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
Definitely he has been somebody who has been around and the police know | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
who he is. I don't really know what they mean by he's a clean skin, or | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
if he's not a clean skin. It is certainly doesn't seem like | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
somebody who came out of nowhere. Certainly not a lunatic or hiding | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
his belief, he has been very outspoken about his concerns and | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
grievances. Of the other suspect much less has been said. It is | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
known he was also on police files, and it has been suggested that he | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
too may be of Nigerian origin. Local people today remembered the | :04:51. | :04:58. | |
victim of the attack, a rebel of the 2nd Battalion Royal Regiment of | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
Fusiliers. Drummer Lee Rigby, a popular member of his band and | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
battalion. He had served in Afghanistan. After an initial order | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
to the forces not to go out in uniform, the Government recinded | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
that, urging troops to carry on as normal. We are determined not to be | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
intimidated into not doing the right thing, whether here in this | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
country or in Afghanistan or wherever we seek to serve the | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
nation. So it hasn't facted us in a direct sense, if anything it has | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
reinforced our desire and determination to do the right thing. | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
The knowledge that the two attackers were known militants has | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
caused questions for the security authorities. But an act of violence, | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
committed by two men with a car and some knives, required little | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
preparation and any foreknowledge may have been confined to a small | :05:49. | :05:57. | |
group. Making it very hard to detect in vans. There is no need | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
for any complex plot, there is no need for e-mail communication, | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
there is no need for experimenting with explosives, buying material | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
quietly. You could do this very straight forwardly, very quickly, | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
without arousing any attention whatsoever. And that made it | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
incredibly difficult to prevent and incredibly difficult to detect. I'm | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
not surprised that, if you want, there was a failure to detect it on | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
those grounds. The only way to detect this was if you had | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
intelligence about them as individuals, not the nature of the | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
plot but about them as individuals. For the Prime Minister a difficult | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
balancing act. Acknowledging the attack, meeting with community | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
leaders to head off any tensions, while not I a peering to concede | :06:40. | :06:47. | |
the agenda to men of violence. After an event like this, it is | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
natural that questions will be asked about what additional steps | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
can be taken to keep us safe. I will make sure those questions are | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
asked and answered. But I'm not in favour of knee-jerk responses. The | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
police have responded with heightened security and activity, | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
and that is right. But one of the best ways of defeating terrorism is | :07:08. | :07:18. | |
:07:18. | :07:21. | ||
to go about our normal lives. That is what we shall all do. Some | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
reactions to Woolich may look like business as usual, but in many ways | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
it followed a distinct and novel pattern. This was a new kind of | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
political violence, perhaps more hate crime than terrorism as we | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
have traditionally defined it. There was a single victim, rather | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
than mass casualties as there were on 7/7. And the choice of weapons, | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
knives and a car, as well as the small number of people who would | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
have needed to know about it in advance, all made it very unlikely | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
that the plotters would be discovered by the Security Service. | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
Add to that the dramatic effect of the alleged attacker addressing | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
people on the scene afterwards and you have a disturbing at the | :08:03. | :08:10. | |
phenomenon that further -- a disturbing phenomenon that security | :08:10. | :08:17. | |
chiefs believe is all too easy to copy. There was a simple attack, no | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
complicated elements, no explosives, no long-term planning, get some | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
knives, get a car, carry out the attack. Very, very simple, very, | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
very difficult to stop. The trade- off is you are limited in terms of | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
what you can do. Given that one of the key elements for most terrorist | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
attacks is they attract media attention, it has to be seen as a | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
huge success. The aftermath of this attack is still unfolding. Two | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
people this afternoon were arrested as part of the inquiry. How the | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
authorities deal with this, whether it inspires imitators are important | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
questions for the coming tonights. We are going to discuss those now. | :08:59. | :09:06. | |
I'm joined in the studio by Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP for Tooting, | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
and New York by Richard Barrett the former hid of counter terrorism, | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
and until a few months ago head of the Al-Qaeda monitoring team. First | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
of all, Sadiq Khan, how chilling was the nature of this attack, | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
given it was extremely low-tech and not disorganised but apparently | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
unorganised? Anybody who saw the horrific images last night, the | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
newspaper pictures today will have been horrified. What is remarkable | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
is actually previously terrorists would use programmes like Al- | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
Jazeera, or outlets like that to get their images out there and | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
their story out and their justification out. What you had | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
last night was people with mobile phones being asked to record this | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
and it being over YouTube and some of the TV channels as well last | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
night, so the methods were simple, but actually the method of | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
radicalisation is simple as well. Rather than a physical preacher in | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
the room radicalising you, it is done over the Internet. Richard | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
Barrett, from your point of view, how different did this appear to be, | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
this idea that these men were standing there on their ground | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
waiting to be picked up. They wanted their story to be beamed | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
around the world. This is new isn't it? Well, I'm not sure how new it | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
is. The attack, for example, in Boston was rather similar, wasn't | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
it. I know those guys tried to get away. They hadn't made any real | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
plan to get away. I think that these unorganised attacks, as you | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
called them, do have this as a hallmark. That the people are | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
really looking for visual impact, their objective afterall is to | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
terrorise, not to kill people. And the horrific killing in Woolich, | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
but one person, as you say, rather than the victims that there were on | :11:01. | :11:08. | |
"severn". But the impact -- 7/7. But the impact is the same, they | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
still managed to get the huge persuasive terrorist impact rather | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
than just committing some murder somewhere and sneaking down a | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
backstreet. There is a delay in the line. How hard do you think this | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
kind of terror, this hate crime is to stop? Given they may not be part | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
of a group which has been targeted by surveillance regularly? I think | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
it is incredibly hard to stop. I assume that these people are | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
probably coming out of a small group, without necessarily any | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
overseas connections or any other broader connections in the UK. | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
Which could come to the attention of the Security Services more than | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
they did. When does a person who expresses radical views, who joins | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
a radical group flip over to be a violent extremist, somebody who | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
will commit a crime like this. And to find the signals, the red flags, | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
as it were, is enormously hard. I imagine that these two people | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
themselves probably didn't have any intention to commit a crime like | :12:17. | :12:26. | |
this until relatively recently before they did. I think it is an | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
amazingly difficult job. Richard Barrett's view, the fact that they | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
hadn't preplanned it for a long time. We know the Al-Qaeda magazine | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
talked about the idea of using cars and of course the idea of using | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
pressure cookers which the Boston killers used. But, we know that | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
although these suspects were subject to surveillance before, we | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
know that recently one of the suspects has been talking quite | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
inflammatory language. Is there a mechanism whereby those pieces of | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
information can come to the attention of the security forces? | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
It is early days yet. We don't know all the facts of this case. What we | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
do know is where historically people could be radicalised in | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
groups, they were governed spaced and could be inside a mosque. | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
Nowadays you can be radicalised in your bedroom, or in somebody's | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
living room. Also the most primitive methods were used, not | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
ricin, not explosives, not fertilisers, but a knife and a meat | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
cutter. So a word of caution. What they are trying to target is a way | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
of life. We have an open society. A member of parliament sees their | :13:36. | :13:44. | |
constituents, the risks they take there. Stephen Timms was. We have | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
soldiers who can walk around in their uniforms and be proud to do | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
so. And police without guns. want all those things, does it have | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
to be compromised? Those are the values we are proud of and under | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
attack. Of course we should prevent as many as we can, and the Security | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
Services do, but some will get through. It is virtually impossible | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
to stop, we know the suspects were under surveillance, and formerly, | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
presumably not on the radar now. As we said earlier, that applies to | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
thousands of people. Is there any way, it is a needle in a haystack, | :14:20. | :14:28. | |
is it not? It is a bit of a needle in a haystack. It is important to | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
remember the, not only the lack of resources perhaps, but also the | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
legal framework within which the Security Services work. Sure, they | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
must have had some indication that these guys were a problem in order | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
to note their names. But it is one thing to note their names, it is | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
quite another thing to take invasive action to track their | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
movements and so on. Clearly the evidence didn't stack up enough to | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
be able to cross these legal thresholds that are important. I | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
think when we are talking about these attacks, what are those guys | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
trying to do? They are essentially trying to change our society. But I | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
don't think they are trying to change our society in a way that | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
enhances our values. I think they are trying to undermine our values. | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
If our reaction is to put over more surveillance then we are doing that | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
job for them. Basically it is not about increasing surveillance but | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
attacking the ideology, ordealing with the ideology, as a Muslim what | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
is the best way to do that? What has been great over the last 24 | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
hours is everyone has come out and condemned the act and everyone's | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
sympathy and prayers are with the family of Drummer Lee Rigby. There | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
are some people who are radicalised by individuals, and your piece | :15:44. | :15:50. | |
talked about a potential radicaliser. Also the Internet, it | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
is difficult to curb the information coming there or | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
stopping people reading literature. We need to make we are a resilient | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
society, if someone comes out with rhetoric that is inflammatory and | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
inciting violence they are challenged. Also information is | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
made available to people who can do something about it, that is a | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
different thing? One of the things the police are doing is try to | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
continue to get the confidence of the public, we police by consent. | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
The Security Services and the police, with the best will in the | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
world with all the tools need the public to come forward. And that | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
means the public will have confidence in those in power and | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
authority. Yesterday's murder has highlighted | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
the dangers of home-grown terrorism. British Muslims radicalised either | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
as we were talking about by like- minded extremist groups, so juorns | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
abroad or in their rooms through social media. Although few in | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
number they can be extremly threatening, we report on -- | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
extremely threatening, we report on a sub-culture. How dangerous is it? | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
We are talking about small scale terrorist threats. It is right to | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
combat that threat to get people to come on board and come forward with | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
community evidence. I have been taking a look at home-grown | :17:09. | :17:19. | |
:17:19. | :17:26. | ||
terrorism extremism, it starts with disturbing images from yesterday. | :17:26. | :17:33. | |
Classic rhetoric, and Mohammed Sadiq Khan film here. The Jihadi | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
narrative of Islam at war with the west. Yet the London bombings were | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
almost eight years ago. There has been a sense, perhaps more a hope, | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
that the appetite for extremism in Britain has been in decline. | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
Afterall, there has been no successful lethal terrorist attack | :17:49. | :17:56. | |
on home soil since 2005. But some comments made after the attacks | :17:56. | :18:04. | |
suggest that Britain may have a very serious problem indeed. This | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
man advises the Metropolitan Police on community relations, he's a | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
leader in High Wickham's substantial Muslim community, he | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
says they were deeply shocked by the attack. We heard a different | :18:15. | :18:22. | |
variety of views, mainly shock and horror. However within there, there | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
were some people who were talking in a manner that presented a | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
justification for this evil act. They are not seeing the picture | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
that most of us see which is this is a young man with a family. | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
course almost all British Muslims utterly condemn the attack, though | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
a small minority seem to disagree. Last night we trawled through | :18:43. | :18:53. | |
:18:53. | :19:00. | ||
comments on the Internet. Some were One person used a photograph of | :19:00. | :19:10. | |
:19:10. | :19:15. | ||
Osama Bin Laden as his internet Another tweet we read belittles the | :19:15. | :19:25. | |
:19:25. | :19:36. | ||
crime. Other messages were more extreme. The Government has a | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
policy to counter such sentiments, preventing violent extremism, | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
stopping people to take it to the next stage is crucial, because | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
small plots are so difficult to uncover. This is one of the | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
challenges that exists now, because you can have intelligence, you can | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
have information, but when you have small-scale plots, that are not | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
necessarily mass casualty, looking to perhaps blow up a plane or a | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
building, focused on targeted assassinations, it becomes very | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
hard to monitor that activity. The only way is through the Internet. | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
Increasingly one is finding that is the platform, the pulpit for | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
extremism. Some critics suggest leaders inside the Muslim community | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
itself have been slow to tackle the problem in its midst. And as a | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
consequence, this latest attack was inevitable. It doesn't surprise me | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
at all. In fact you will not be surprised to hear that I believe | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
you will experience far more attacks, because this is, the root | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
causes have not changed. Neither has the policy changed that leads | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
to this rage, and neither have the Muslim community been educated by | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
our leadership as to what peaceful, democratic, political measure they | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
could take to bring about that change that they so need. Does it | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
surprise you that eight years ever 7/7, the London bombings, we are | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
still facing these problems? just now, we are going to face the | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
same problems eight years further down the line and more. Until we | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
get to the root causes of this anger, this strong emotion, things | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
are not going to change. Yesterday's brutal murder has been | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
profoundly shocking for virtually all Britains. But the fact that a | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
Tyne -- Britons, but the fact that a tiny minority support such acts | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
mean there is a ready pool of new recruits. Despite of Government | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
programmes and a clear community rejection of this nihilism, that | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
problem persists. Earlier this evening I spoke to | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
Anjem Choudary, who you saw earlier in the package, a radical Muslim | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
who once led the now banned extremist group, Al-Muhajiroun. Mr | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
Choudary says he knows the Woolich suspect, Michael Adebolajo, and he | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
was standing alongside him in a protest in images that emerged | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
today. During our discussion he was challenged on his views by the | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
executive director of the Islamic Society of Britain, and by the Iman | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
Shams Adduha Muhammad, the director of the college in East London. | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
Anjem Choudary what was your relationship with Michael | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
Adebolajo? As an Islamic movement we come across many people, as you | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
know Al-Muhajiroun has been in existence for 10-15 years. He came | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
to the demonstrations and attended some of the lectures. He stood next | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
to you in the demonstrations? come across thousands of people in | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
our own activities. The Al- Muhajiroun of the most popular | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
Islamic movement among the youth, especially in the 1990s. Now it is | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
banned. When did you last speak to him? About two or three years ago. | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
When you saw him standing there with his bloodied hands and meat | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
cleavers, were you horrified? were shocked like everybody else. | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
Horrified? It was a shocking scene, there is no doubt about that. | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
you abhor what he did? I think what he said explains what he did. | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
That's a different thing. That's a different thing, I'm really wanting | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
your reaction, when you saw that image of him were you horrified? | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
When I saw what took place I was shocked. Let me say one thing, what | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
he said in the clip, which has been played widely, I think not many | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
Muslims would disagree with. He was talking about the British foreign | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
policy. Let's be clear, you are making a very big assertion there, | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
and I have to say I would disagree that many Muslims? Most Muslims | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
around the world would agree. to you I find it extraordinary that | :23:32. | :23:38. | |
you could not say that you abhored the scene of him standing, what he | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
had done, he had actually killed a man in the street. And you can't | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
bring yourself? One man killed in the street doesn't equate to the | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
hundreds of thousands of millions slaughtered by the British, | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
American foreign policy. Those tortured in Guantanamo Bay, if we | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
are abhoring where there is the condemnation for the British | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
foreign policy. This was in Woolich beside a primary school, you | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
attended that primary school. I'm asking you a simple question, are | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
you refusing to condemn what happened because you had a hand in | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
radicalising Michael Adebolajo? radicalisation is calling for | :24:19. | :24:28. | |
Sharia and expose ex-- exposing the British foreign policy and calling | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
for radicalisation, I have no problem with that. We are on record | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
as saying Muslims in Britain have a covenant of security, in return for | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
their life being protected they can't target the lives of those | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
with whom they live. The fact is that Anjem Choudary may not have | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
many follower, but surely what he is saying now and these events show | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
he's dangerous? I haven't come across a single Muslim and I | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
interact with a lot of them who agrees with what happened and would | :24:55. | :25:03. | |
agree with that narrative. I think although he refuses to abhor, in | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
his own way he said that what has happened is unjustified. If it is | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
unjustified why can't you just say it is wrong. You said if we're here | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
on a covenant, right, for our safety and our security, and if | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
based on that same narrative it is incorrect to go out there and kill | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
someone. An innocent person. There is no condemnation of the cause of | :25:24. | :25:33. | |
that. If we deal with the cause which is the occupation of Muslim | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
land. Anjem Choudary would you please, I would like you. Why is it | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
not possible. Be polite for a moment. Why is it not possible for | :25:41. | :25:49. | |
us as Muslims, who are people who follow a path that is holistic, | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
without focusing on one particular aspect that deals with Jihad et | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
cetera, why is it we cannot condemn what happened here, right, and at | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
the same time air our views with regards to what goes on in terms of | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
foreign policy. What do you do with people who have been radicalised by | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
Anjem Choudary coming to your mosque, what happens? To be honest | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
people of that particular mind set, they tend to stick to themselves, | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
and they don't want to speak to anybody. There is a notion among | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
themselves, because of the way they think that everybody else is a | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
hypocrite because everybody else doesn't go around openly condemning. | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
Speak and verify with me. That is not true. From your point of view, | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
what impact do you think the small minority of people who hold Anjem | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
Choudary's views have, is the impact disproportionate to their | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
number? I just want to give our condolences and thoughts to Lee | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
Rigby's family. Seeing his photo today has brought it home. A very | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
smart young man in his uniform and how horrific it was he was murdered | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
like that in cold blood. Our thoughts go to his family and the | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
people who had to witness something as horrific as that. Everyone has | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
been shocked and outraged about what has happened. Condmation from | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
every Muslim organisation. What damage though. This kind of | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
rhetoric has no place in this country. And the vast majority of | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
people would say that, the majority of people have stood together today | :27:11. | :27:18. | |
from all faiths, all background, Muslims and not, and said you will | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
not divide this country. Anjem Choudary, you seem not, if I'm | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
right to like Britain very much, and there are people of all creeds | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
and none who wish that you would just go and take your views with | :27:31. | :27:38. | |
you. Why do you stay? The point is, I was born in this country,. I'm | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
older than both these people. I should not have to believe. If I | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
want to propagage my belief, and I want to have Sharia and expose | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
British foreign policy. Hang about I don't do anything illegal, I | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
haven't been raided and arrested, why have you a problem with my | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
views, if you don't like my views, in accordance to the law, why don't | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
you leave the country, I'm not doing anything illegal. The problem | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
is, people can be, people I think the issue here is that you are | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
expressing your views as a Muslim and trying to express them as a | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
legitimate view within Islam, the majority of Muslims do not agree | :28:14. | :28:21. | |
with you. The basic narrative here is that Islam isn't a holistic | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
religion that teaches every single aspect of life. The narrative that | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
comes out of yourself seems to focus purely on politics. How do | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
you counter this, how do you counter this, because you have, in | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
a sense, hearing this, presumably fears that this will be what | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
divides rather than brings together. The very thing that you have just | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
said you want to do? I think you know there is absolutely no | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
justification for what we saw yesterday. It doesn't matter what | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
is happening abroad, and as the Iman has said it is a separate | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
issue. People up and down the country can talk about that. You | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
can never equate that to what we saw yesterday. There is one short | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
question I want you to respond to honestly. It is unIslamic not to | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
condemn the murder yesterday? believe that action for me would | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
not be aed load. I do believe there is a difference of opinion. So it | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
is unIslamic? Not as far as other people are concerned. Not as far as | :29:19. | :29:26. | |
is Al-Qaeda. Thank you very much everybody. | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
In the aftermath of the killing of Lee Rigby, many people of all | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
faiths and none visited the site of the murder to pay their respects | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
and a tribute. For a small minority it was an opportunity to create | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
division under the banner of the English Defence League. Will the | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
terrible events in Woolich have ramification for race and community | :29:46. | :29:56. | |
:29:56. | :30:04. | ||
relations. Hello. After a deliberately public | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
atrocity, a public display of grief outside Woolich ba barracks. Many | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
came today to express -- Woolwich Barracks. Many came to express | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
their horror at the killing of Lee Rigby. Among them a woman whose own | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
son was stabbed to death in East London 12 years ago. It is still a | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
murder and that guy's body was lying in the road yesterday. How | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
would that mother have felt. I know how I felt when the police knocked | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
at my door, I know how that lady feels and will feel for the rest of | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
her life. Are you worried about the reprecussions? Not at all. We will | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
unite. This is Woolich, this is Plumstead, we do unite. I mean last | :30:44. | :30:51. | |
night what happened in the town centre was ridiculous. We see the | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
Muslim up there. This is what happened in Woolich town centre | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
last night, members of the far right group the English Defence | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
League confronted police as they protested against what they called | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
the spread of political Islam. And outside the barracks today there | :31:04. | :31:09. | |
was some who agreed with the EDL's message. The English people have | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
had enough now, we are saying we won't have this on our streets, our | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
soldiers should not, in their own country be in danger. They are | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
meant to be safe at home. You think some poor parent has got a phone | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
call saying their child is dead. You would think they would be safe | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
in their own country. Afghanistan you are waiting for that call, here | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
in Woolich, it is disgusting it has happened. What do you think should | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
be about it? I can't really say what I really think, I think it | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
won't be put on air. Give me a clue? Send them all back to where | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
they come from. The English Defence League take a good hiding whether | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
they stand up and say what they want or they don't. I don't know I | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
think they are talking for a lot of the people and a lot of the way | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
people feel now. We feel like second class citizens in our own | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
country, basically. I think when our soldiers are being attacked it | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
proves we are second class citizens in our own country. | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
I met other white people in Woolich today who don't share those views. | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
But there were some others who did, but said they feared to speak | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
openly for fear of being branded raceist. | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
This borrowing, Greenwich, has seen rapid social change. The proportion | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
of the population that is white has fallen by more than 10% in just ten | :32:25. | :32:34. | |
years. This lady, who grew up here, says most people have got on quite | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
well, despite deep social problems. She thinks the use of the word | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
"terrorism" to describe yesterday's crime will now divide them of the | :32:42. | :32:48. | |
think they will have to deal with the reprecussions it will create | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
moral panic, and the EDL marching around, obviously they are anti- | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
Muslim groups. They are going to create, it will create a bit more | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
tension. At the local Islamic centre today, few wanted to talk | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
about the killing. Fears of an anti-Muslim backlash have increased | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
after mosques in Kent and Essex were attacked last night. Here the | :33:10. | :33:17. | |
Iman would only make a prepared statement. Let the response of our | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
nation be mature and thoughtful. This is a moment of prayer. Unity | :33:22. | :33:29. | |
and not of hasty reaction. Thank you very much. What are the dangers | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
now do you think for community relations? I'm sorry I can't speak | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
much now, we are deeply saddened with this issue. We have never been | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
facing this kind of thing in this neighbourhood. So we can't speak | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
more. And we don't have our feelings, we are so disturbed and | :33:44. | :33:53. | |
so saddened by this issue. estate behind the mosque, now very | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
ethically mixed was unusually quiet today. Among those nervous about | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
the future is Josie Murphy a convert to Islam. I'm worried about | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
the tension in the community. It is giving the wrong impression of | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
Islam. Regardless of what the soldier did in the paths, at that | :34:08. | :34:15. | |
precise moment he was innocent. He was an innocent. It is wrong, it is | :34:15. | :34:25. | |
:34:25. | :34:26. | ||
so wrong. I'm a bit worried about the problems that may arise after. | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
What kind of problems do you think might arise? Hate, just hate. | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
main purpose of yesterday's crime was apparently to try to raise | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
tensions in society. And many people here are afraid that's what | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
will now happen, with various different groups trying to use | :34:45. | :34:52. | |
yesterday's terrible events to advance their own agendas. Grief | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
unites, but can also divide. What effect it has here won't be clear | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
until long after the flowers have faileded -- faded. | :35:02. | :35:12. | |
:35:12. | :35:15. | ||
We have our guests with nouse now. -- us now. | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
First of all, Matthew, listening to people in the film there, there is | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
two things, there is an insecurity about what actually happened and | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
the seeming randomness of it happening and obviously the target | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
was the soldiers, but we had no notice or idea that anything was | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
going to happen. They are worried about that, they are also worried | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
about the impact it will have on essentially a mixed community? | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
think all communities will be worried about the impact of the | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
events. Just to give you a sense of how this has played out over the | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
past 15 hours. If we look at the world, the murky world of the far | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
right, more than 60,000 people have subscribed to the English Defence | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
League's Facebook page since the attack. This is new people? | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
people, on top of the 21,000 who were already subscribing. Can you | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
get any sense of where they are subscribing from, is it just | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
somewhere? We will have that data in time. At the moment what we have | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
seen is the attack revitalising a movement that was rapidly | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
disintegrating. The English Defence League was very quick yesterday to | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
move from on-line into offline action. And to move geographically | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
as well? Yes that's right. I think it is understandable that when | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
there is such a provocative incident like this that you would | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
see this surge of interest in extremist group. That doesn't | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
automatically translate into people actually joining in fisically and | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
showing up. So whilst 60,000 people have now expressed interest in the | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
EDL on-line, it was more like 60EDL activists turning up in Woolich | :36:54. | :37:02. | |
last night. You were there? I was there. What happens? This group of | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
60 tried to go into the square and charged with bottles. They charged | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
a group of locals and passers by, a mixed race group, the police caught | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
up and separated them. The rest of the right descended into running | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
battles with the police. What I would say about that is probably | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
most of those 60 activists wouldn't be from Woolich. They would have | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
come from outside. Like the EDL's leader, Steven Lennon, he came from | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
Lutton specifically to try to provoke a larger backlash in | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
Woolich. What happens then, not just in Woolich, but elsewhere, to | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
counter the impact of the EDL? think once condemnation makes way | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
for analysis we are going to face some big questions. Have we got our | :37:46. | :37:53. | |
strategy on integration right? Have we devoted enough resources to | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
building bridges across communities. Do people, do British Muslims feel | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
confident about coming forward and saying they are deeply worried | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
about perhaps somebody that they have heard expressing extremist | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
views. Do people feel comfortable that they will be supported if they | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
come forward? Well what is clear is that those views are certainly | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
there. They are well entrenched and they were there long before the | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
crisis, they were there, to be honest, long before the attacks on | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
7/7 and in 2001. I think just going back to the point about impact, | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
over the longer term, I think we do have to sit down and think about | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
how extremism and different forms of extremism and their wider circle | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
of tacit support are changing. What we can do really to cut off that | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
well that surround these individual groups. Do you feel that well | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
poisons the whole nature of multiculturalism if it is not | :38:49. | :38:58. | |
stopped? Well I mean on the question of multiculturalism, I | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
mean this is a very ambiguous term. It is often held up as the example | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
of all that has gone wrong with British society. In terms of state | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
policies, multiculturalism hasn't really been pursued for a decade or | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
so. But I think it has another meaning and a more colloquial | :39:15. | :39:22. | |
meaning, to many it is just a byword for the existence of a | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
multiethnic society. Groups like the EDL and populist politicians | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
and others will use that word as a nod and a wink to say to people as | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
if you are really not happy from take your pick from a list of | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
things, immigration, the presence of Muslims in Britain, you know, | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
rally against multiculturalism and we will get rid of all this. Where | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
is the onus, who is the onus on? think that is a crucial question. | :39:49. | :39:58. | |
You raise this idea a minute ago about Muslims rooting out | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
extremists within their own community, I think it has to go | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
beyond that. We can't expect the weight of this to fall on the | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
shoulders of one community. Where the far right has been most | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
successfully opposed in the past it has been grassroots organisations | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
with the help of the state, or local councils and the rest of it. | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
What you are suggesting is if you have 60,000 clicks on a Facebook | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
site it is about rooting that out from within the community as well? | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
What we saw last night was something that some analysts called | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
cumulative extremism, where you have one form of extremism bouncing | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
off another in a spiral of conflict and tension. That is a challenge, | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
because over the last ten years we as a society have got used to | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
focusing on one form of extremism, it is Al-Qaeda or the far right. We | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
don't actually think that seriously about the interplay between the two. | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
If you heard one of the women in the film saying she felt like a | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
second class citizen, white British working-class, have they been short | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
changed? Not by British Muslims, but just by being short changed by | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
society? I think we have to be very careful. I'm not sure of Dan's view, | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
but the whole debate about British national identity is getting tired. | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
There is a risk we trip into another debate about where is | :41:18. | :41:24. | |
Britain in the 21st century. This ultimately was an act of violent | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
extremism. Thank you very much. Tomorrow morning's front pages, | :41:28. | :41:38. | |
:41:38. | :42:16. | ||
obviously Woolich dominates the Richard Watson joins us gip. Where | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
is again. Where will the investigation go to now? It can be | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
summarised on three points, the network, the police and the | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
Security Service no doubt will be looking at whether these people had | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
a wider network. At the moment there is no indication of that. It | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
looks like a fairly discreet unit. Support, what support, if any, did | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
they receive from others? And knowledge, community knowledge | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
about what was going on? In all likelyhood someone would have known | :42:42. | :42:49. | |
that they had some extremist views. How wide that net was spread will | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
be subject to further investigation. These are the areas we will focus | :42:54. | :43:01. | |
on. Presumably and on the on contacts they had in other places, | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
not with the intent to kill but with that mindset? The network will | :43:05. | :43:11. | |
be very important, who they were associated with, and who they were | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
communicating with. Mentoring possibly? Who they will be mentored | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
by. But these will be crucial aspect, the short-term | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
investigation but also to the much longer term investigation, which is | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
absolutely crucial if Britain is to tackle the problem of extremism in | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
the longer term. Thank you to all my guests tonight. | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
That is all we have time for tonight. We will have more tomorrow, | :43:32. | :43:42. | |
:43:42. | :44:15. | ||
until then from all of us here good night. Good evening, some | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
unseasonable and chilly and wet weather to bring the week to a | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
close. For Scotland and Northern Ireland a slightly quieter day. | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
Lighter winds and a dryer story, warmer in the sunshine. Big | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
contrasts between the north and the south. For the south west of | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
England and Wales, perhaps some brighter spells through the | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
afternoon. It will feel chilly, partly because of the low | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
temperatures but also because of the strong and gusty winds. Across | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
the central areas of England highs of 8 or 9, compromised which the | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
wind and rain. It will feel cold. For Scotland and Northern Ireland | :44:49. | :44:59. | |
:44:59. | :45:21. |