28/05/2013 Newsnight


28/05/2013

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Tonight, MI5 hand over their preliminary report on what they

:00:16.:00:21.

knew about the men from the Woolich murders. More questions are raised

:00:21.:00:23.

about the Security Services involvement.

:00:23.:00:27.

Abu Nusaybah, arrested after being on Newsnight on Friday, writes to

:00:27.:00:30.

the chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, Malcolm

:00:30.:00:35.

Rifkind, with disturbing claims of what might have contributed to

:00:35.:00:41.

Michael Adebolajo's behaviour. We will discuss that with Sir Malcolm.

:00:41.:00:45.

Thousands of Iraqis dead since April, is the country supposedly

:00:45.:00:47.

liberated by the US and British invasion ten years ago now in

:00:47.:00:52.

danger of falling apart. The call of the wild, should wolves,

:00:52.:01:00.

bears and moose, and other British animals be reintroduced? How would

:01:00.:01:02.

farmers react. We have discussion on rewilding of Britain.

:01:02.:01:11.

You have a problem with sheep? are the white playing that has --

:01:11.:01:15.

plague and destroyed our hills. They have uploaded our ecosystem,

:01:15.:01:19.

they have reduced it to a bowling green with contours. A better way

:01:19.:01:24.

it teach our children, we hear about maths teaching done on-line,

:01:24.:01:29.

and real live teachers spend more time offering one-to-one tuition.

:01:29.:01:39.
:01:39.:01:39.

We ask the founder will it work in the UK.

:01:39.:01:43.

Good evening, Abu Nusaybah, friend of the man arrested at the scene of

:01:43.:01:48.

the Woolich murder of Drummer Lee Rigby. Has written to the chairman

:01:48.:01:50.

of the Commons Intelligence and Security Committee with further

:01:50.:01:55.

allegations about the role of MI5. Abu Nusaybah was arrested

:01:55.:01:59.

immediately after an interview with Newsnight on Friday. From prison he

:01:59.:02:01.

has written to Malcolm Rifkind asking his committee to investigate

:02:01.:02:07.

if there was a connection between MI5 and the mistreatment of the

:02:07.:02:10.

suspected killer, Michael Adebolajo. It is claimed he suffered at the

:02:10.:02:16.

hands of the Kenyan authorities. Richard Watson who interviewed Abu

:02:16.:02:19.

Nusaybah on Friday is with us. There was a furore after the

:02:19.:02:23.

interview, remind us of the allegations he's been making about

:02:23.:02:27.

MI5? It is important to remember that Abu Nusaybah is being held at

:02:27.:02:31.

the moment in police custody on suggestions or allegations

:02:31.:02:35.

unconnected to the actual Woolich murders. However, he's clearly a

:02:35.:02:42.

man who knows the suspect quite closely. He grew up with him, he

:02:42.:02:49.

converted to Islam in 2003/04, they were both connected with the

:02:49.:02:54.

extremist group Al-Muhajiroun. In his interview with me he made some

:02:54.:03:00.

serious allegations against MI5. Did he blame MI5 for the harassment.

:03:00.:03:05.

Do you suspect that his argument was it made him more angry?

:03:05.:03:11.

exact words were the Kenor torturers, as I call them, their

:03:11.:03:15.

statement was "do you think your Government is going to help you,

:03:15.:03:20.

who do you think asked us to do this". That was his own statement,

:03:20.:03:24.

that is very clear as far as he is concerned you know that the British

:03:24.:03:29.

Government had involvement in it. Whether it is MI5, whether it is

:03:29.:03:34.

any other branch of the Government. But definitely somebody had form of

:03:34.:03:37.

involvement according to his own words. You can't be sure about that

:03:37.:03:41.

can you? You have only got his judgment for that? It is his

:03:41.:03:44.

statement. But you know what I'm pretty confident because I'm fully

:03:44.:03:47.

aware that there is an investigation into the intelligence

:03:47.:03:51.

regarding him. I'm almost certain that it will come to light if it is

:03:51.:03:54.

an honest investigation. Those are the allegations and they

:03:54.:03:58.

are just allegations. What has been the official response? These

:03:58.:04:03.

allegations concern principally his visit to Kenya in 2010 and his

:04:03.:04:07.

allegation that he was tortured. He really says that MI5 was some how

:04:07.:04:12.

aware of his mistreatment, he also said they harassed him after he

:04:12.:04:16.

came back to the UK in 2010. One can't expect the Security Service

:04:16.:04:21.

to comment in detail about the specific case. In general terms

:04:21.:04:24.

sources say, they make the point that British Security Services and

:04:24.:04:29.

the police don't get involved in torture. And they also made the

:04:29.:04:34.

point that harassment is one way of putting it, but it is not uncommon

:04:34.:04:36.

for the Security Service, for example, to approach an individual,

:04:37.:04:42.

who may be considered a potential asset on numerous occasions. So one

:04:42.:04:46.

man's harassment may be another person's diligence. We will talk to

:04:46.:04:50.

Sir Malcolm in a moment about the letter, what is in it? The letter

:04:50.:04:55.

is quite extraordinary. In it he says he had no participation or

:04:55.:05:01.

knowledge of the shooting. However he did not deny that this

:05:01.:05:04.

individual was known to him and an associate of his for a number of

:05:04.:05:12.

years. On his detention in Kenya he goes on to write, "Michael was told

:05:12.:05:16.

by his captors that this action by them was at the behest of the UK

:05:16.:05:20.

authorities. He could not forget or forgive them for this connivance in

:05:20.:05:30.

this brutal treatment". He goes on to make another claim,

:05:30.:05:32.

"I implore you to investigate any connection between the UK and

:05:32.:05:35.

Kenyan authorities in the mistreatment of Michael Adebolajo

:05:35.:05:39.

whilst in their hands ". Quite serious allegations. Can you clear

:05:39.:05:42.

up one point, there is a lot of confusion about the movement of

:05:42.:05:46.

these suspects, what do you know about that? The timeline has been

:05:46.:05:49.

crystalising since I did the interview on Friday. I think what

:05:49.:05:52.

is crystalising out of this at the moment is that Michael Adebolajo

:05:52.:05:57.

went to Kenya in 2010. He says on his account he was detained, we

:05:57.:06:01.

know he was detained. He says he was tortured, the Foreign Office

:06:01.:06:06.

has confirmed that he received consular assistance then, we can be

:06:06.:06:10.

sure he was there. He travelled back to the UK in 2010. He says on

:06:10.:06:14.

his account he was repeatedly approached by MI5, put under

:06:14.:06:18.

harassment, so he says. Crucially my understanding is that he also

:06:18.:06:23.

tried to travel abroad just last year. That's unconfirmed. But the

:06:23.:06:26.

suggestion I'm getting is he was stopped or persuaded not to travel

:06:26.:06:33.

abroad last year too. Sir Malcolm Rifkind is chairman of

:06:33.:06:35.

the Intelligence and Security Committee which is charged

:06:35.:06:38.

withholding the intill begins services to account on behalf of

:06:38.:06:44.

parliament and the public. These allegations from Abu Nusaybah in

:06:44.:06:49.

the letter to you about alleged MI5 harassment and also potentially

:06:49.:06:52.

complicity, will you be looking into them? I can confirm I have

:06:52.:06:55.

received that letter and we will treat it as we are treating all the

:06:55.:07:00.

other reports that have appeared in the newspapers, or on television,

:07:00.:07:04.

making various claims about whether the intelligence agencies were

:07:04.:07:10.

involved. That is our job, our job is to look at these matters, I have

:07:10.:07:15.

already had an initial conversation with the head of MI5. He is very

:07:15.:07:18.

anxious to co-operate very fully with the Intelligence and Security

:07:18.:07:21.

Committee. Of course we have very considerable new powers under the

:07:21.:07:26.

justice and security act, which has just come into force. We can, we

:07:26.:07:30.

don't have to ask for documents we can require them. We have the legal

:07:30.:07:34.

requirement to see what needs to be seen and we can also look at the

:07:34.:07:37.

source material they have, the reports, the intelligence material,

:07:37.:07:41.

if that is relevant to the issues at stake. Those are powers you

:07:41.:07:44.

didn't have before? No we were dependant on the voluntary co-

:07:44.:07:47.

operation of the agencies in the past. The other side of this is

:07:47.:07:50.

people will also want to know you are looking into other allegations

:07:50.:07:54.

which have been widely covered in the press which are simply that MI5

:07:54.:07:58.

perhaps could have done more, that they had tabs on these people but

:07:58.:08:01.

didn't look closely enough? I won't comment on that at the moment.

:08:01.:08:05.

Obviously we have to carry out the inquiry. What I would say is that

:08:05.:08:11.

do look at the record of the last year, few years since the 7/7

:08:11.:08:19.

bombings. We have not had a single British citizen killed until the

:08:19.:08:24.

tragic events at Woolich since 2005. That doesn't mean that there

:08:24.:08:28.

haven't been terrorist plots, there has been one or two plots a year.

:08:28.:08:32.

Each of them were disrupted by MI5, the other intelligence agencies and

:08:33.:08:36.

the police working very, very effectively together. That is a

:08:36.:08:39.

record which is certainly very impressive. I'm not commenting on

:08:39.:08:43.

what happened in Woolich, that is a matter we have to look into still.

:08:43.:08:47.

But MI5 can certain low say they have served the country well over -

:08:47.:08:53.

- certainly say they have served the country well preventing further

:08:53.:08:56.

terrorist attacks. It is judgment, they have to keep tabs on some

:08:56.:09:00.

people they find unsavoury, but in the public interest try to get them

:09:00.:09:03.

to co-operate, that is quite tricky? The question of approaching

:09:03.:09:08.

people, again not commenting on the current case, but as a general

:09:08.:09:12.

principle all intelligence agencies as a fundamental part of their job

:09:12.:09:16.

to try to find individuals and terrorist organisations, or

:09:16.:09:19.

extremist organisations, who are prepared to share information with

:09:19.:09:24.

the intelligence agencies. That is a good thing? Of course, it is

:09:24.:09:31.

exactly is supposed to happen. That is why you prevent these things

:09:31.:09:34.

happening. Why people co-operate can be for a number of reasons.

:09:34.:09:36.

Sometimes they have stopped being extremists and turned against the

:09:36.:09:40.

organisation of which they are a member, and want to help prevent

:09:40.:09:42.

terrorism. Sometimes they have had some disagreement with the other

:09:42.:09:45.

people in the organisation. They have a sense of grievance.

:09:45.:09:50.

Sometimes they want to be paid. But in each case it can sometimes be a

:09:50.:09:55.

very valuable source of information. You point out you have new and

:09:55.:09:58.

better powers. You presume below also want to get on with it? We are

:09:58.:10:04.

getting on with it. How quickly do you think you can do it. One of the

:10:04.:10:08.

criticisims after 7/7 is there were so many stories and rumours which

:10:08.:10:12.

wasn't to anyone's advantage? have already begun the process. I

:10:12.:10:17.

have had an initial conversation with the head of MI5. Today we

:10:17.:10:22.

received the committee itself received a preliminary report from

:10:22.:10:24.

MI5 outlining the overall background to the situation. What

:10:24.:10:30.

we expect MI5 to do now and what we know they are going to be doing is

:10:30.:10:32.

looking into their own files and sources of information, bringing

:10:32.:10:36.

together all the material they have that might be relevant to our

:10:36.:10:39.

inquiries. Once they have done that then the next stage will be for us

:10:39.:10:44.

to take evidence from MI5 and to study the documentation that may be

:10:44.:10:48.

put before us. How quickly do you think you could actually publish

:10:48.:10:53.

this? I don't know.A few months? Who knows, we will produce it as

:10:53.:10:56.

quickly as we can. It is more important to get the right

:10:56.:10:59.

conclusion than to get a hurried conclusion. When we come to a

:10:59.:11:04.

conclusion we do two things. First of all we send a report to the

:11:04.:11:07.

Prime Minister, but at the same time a report will be presented to

:11:07.:11:12.

parliament which will be published. Some of that report may have to be

:11:12.:11:15.

redacted, some information may have to be left out, but only on grounds

:11:15.:11:19.

of national security, and we will decide whether there are grounds of

:11:19.:11:24.

national security that require these redaxs, but I can certainly -

:11:24.:11:30.

- de dactions, regardless of the changes needed to be made to the

:11:30.:11:34.

public document, we will reach conclusions as to whether in our

:11:34.:11:37.

judgment MI5 acted reasonably or not.

:11:37.:11:42.

In the run up to the Iraq War the then US Secretary of State, Colin

:11:42.:11:46.

Powell, commented if you break it you own it. By his standards even

:11:46.:11:49.

after the withdrawal of the haeorn and British troops the state of

:11:49.:11:54.

Iraq is broken, and even perhaps now we own a part of that mess.

:11:54.:11:59.

More than 500 Iraqios have died this month in sectarian conflict,

:11:59.:12:03.

bringing the death toll to 1,000 since April. There are fears the

:12:03.:12:06.

country could fall apart. When the European Union is considering how

:12:07.:12:11.

to help arm the Syrian opposition, we have been examining the bloody

:12:11.:12:18.

intervention in neighbouring Iraq ten years ago.

:12:18.:12:22.

In Iraq the ebb and flow of violence can be measured in car

:12:22.:12:28.

bombs. There were 15 yesterday killing 70 people. That's a level

:12:28.:12:32.

of trouble reminiscent of the dark days of 2006, when the country

:12:32.:12:36.

seemed to be plunging into Civil War. Sectarian tensions between

:12:36.:12:41.

Sunni and Shia are high once more. And many are blaming the Prime

:12:41.:12:48.

Minister, Nouri al-Maliki. belief is Al-Maliki is seen as

:12:48.:12:54.

responsible for the security. He took it upon himself to make

:12:54.:12:58.

security the platform on which he runs for the elections. And so as

:12:58.:13:01.

things get worse his opponents, even those that are in Government

:13:01.:13:05.

but are his opponents believe that this is not such a bad thing for

:13:05.:13:09.

them. So they haven't really put in the effort to try to stop the

:13:09.:13:14.

violence from rising. This is what we saw during the

:13:14.:13:18.

American surge, how flash point neighbourhoods were sealed off to

:13:18.:13:22.

thwart sectarian death squads. Special force, meanwhile, took

:13:22.:13:25.

apart the car bombing gangs and the combined effect meant that the

:13:25.:13:30.

violence had been largely stopped by 2008.

:13:30.:13:36.

But Sunni unrest and counter violence has escalated and local

:13:36.:13:40.

elections last month were suspended in two key Sunni provinces. Those

:13:40.:13:44.

who back the Prime Minister and Shia majority argue the trouble has

:13:44.:13:48.

come from those who cannot accept the new Iraq.

:13:49.:13:56.

Through this change in 2003, through the democratic process it

:13:56.:14:05.

can't be the same way as before. Some of the Sunnis feel not happy.

:14:05.:14:09.

Whatever they get because they were the rulers, now they are part of

:14:09.:14:13.

the rulers. Sips the Americans have gone Mr Al-

:14:13.:14:17.

Maliki -- since the Americans have gone, Mr Al-Maliki has tried to

:14:17.:14:20.

arrest his Vice President and other Sunni leading ministers, and they

:14:20.:14:24.

have left Baghdad, saying they are unsafe. With bombs now targeting

:14:24.:14:29.

the Shia power base of Sadr City, there was another there today. He

:14:29.:14:34.

has tried to defend his stance as a non-sectarian leader.

:14:34.:14:38.

TRANSLATION: The cabinet has unanimously agreed to stand as one

:14:38.:14:42.

to confront the crisis and send a message of reassurance that all are

:14:42.:14:46.

in agreement of shouldering their responsibility and confronting the

:14:46.:14:50.

outlaws regardless of their affiliation, sex or political party

:14:50.:14:55.

they belong to. The war in Syria is stirring tensions too. Posters to

:14:55.:14:59.

those who have died fighting in Syria have appeared in Iraq, in

:14:59.:15:03.

both Shia and Sunni communities. The international front tear

:15:03.:15:09.

between Iraq and Syria is well known, established early in the

:15:09.:15:12.

20th century. The sectarian boundary is quite different. This

:15:12.:15:16.

is it in simplified form. The fault line runs through Iraq with the

:15:17.:15:20.

majority Sunni areas to the west and North West of that line there

:15:20.:15:25.

in orange. The strongholds of resistance in

:15:25.:15:32.

Ramadi and Fallujah, now in Hamah and Homs way to the west, the Sunni

:15:32.:15:38.

majority cities and the strong resistance to the Assad regime.

:15:38.:15:42.

Syrian conflict is having an impact on Iraq. It is having an impact

:15:42.:15:45.

politically because different people within the Iraqi governing

:15:45.:15:48.

class have a different approach of how they should be dealing with the

:15:49.:15:54.

crisis. On the ground it is having an impact. The borders are very

:15:54.:15:57.

poor as everyone knows. Iraq suffered from that reality when

:15:57.:16:00.

fighters were coming from Syria into Iraq. Now we have the opposite.

:16:00.:16:04.

There is a lot of talk about fighters and weapons and money

:16:04.:16:08.

being taken going into Syria. last few days have taken Baghdad

:16:08.:16:12.

back to the dark hours of several years ago.

:16:12.:16:16.

Reconciliation between the communities could hardly be more

:16:16.:16:26.
:16:26.:16:26.

urgent. But events in Syria can't help that. Dr Zuhair al Nahar is a

:16:26.:16:30.

spokesperson for Nouri al-Maliki's heart. We are joined by a research

:16:30.:16:37.

fellow fromp Kennedy Cool. Zuhair al Nahar, how far is this a crisis

:16:37.:16:43.

of Mr Al-Maliki's making, he has alienated large sections of the

:16:43.:16:47.

Sunni population? Prime Minister Al-Maliki ran on the basis of non-

:16:47.:16:54.

sectarian. He formed the State of Law coalition, which aimed to get

:16:54.:16:58.

all parties and people of all communities under a political

:16:58.:17:03.

banner. It is not working, that is the point. Has he given up on the

:17:03.:17:08.

Sunnis? The main problem is there are extremist Sunni elements allied

:17:08.:17:12.

with the former militant regime supporters of Saddam. Those are the

:17:12.:17:16.

ones who have been causing all the problems. They have been attacking

:17:16.:17:21.

Shia areas, but also Sunni areas. They have been killing Sunnis and

:17:21.:17:25.

Shias, with the aim of destablising the political process, the new

:17:25.:17:30.

democracy that Iraq has become. is working from their point of view,

:17:30.:17:34.

presumably? These plans will not succeed, because we saw today the

:17:34.:17:39.

whole of the Iraqi cabinet, including major Sunni members of

:17:39.:17:45.

the Government, the Deputy Prime Minister, and other Sunni ministers

:17:45.:17:49.

joining together and supporting the army and the Government. Let me

:17:49.:17:52.

bring Nussaibah Younis in, you wrote that Mr Al-Maliki should

:17:52.:17:56.

resign as Prime Minister, why do you think that? I think that at the

:17:56.:18:02.

moment we're in a really serious situation where unless something

:18:02.:18:06.

drastic is done the violence in Iraq threatens to spiral out of

:18:06.:18:09.

control. I don't think the resignation of Prime Minister Al-

:18:09.:18:13.

Maliki will solve all of Iraq's problems. But I think what it could

:18:13.:18:18.

do is jump start a process of political reconciliation that

:18:18.:18:23.

absolutely the only thing standing between Iraq now and all-out Civil

:18:23.:18:27.

War. Can I ask you though can anybody hold this country together?

:18:27.:18:34.

That's not a dictator like Saddam. Do you think a democratic Iraq can

:18:34.:18:38.

join up? It is absolutely possible. What Iraq needs is a political

:18:39.:18:44.

elite with a real vision for Iraqi unity. And what that requires is

:18:44.:18:49.

recognising that Iraq's in a post- Civil War, but pre-reconciled state.

:18:49.:18:53.

And unless there is a serious process of reconciliation then you

:18:53.:18:59.

are never going to have a political settlement that will be durable.

:18:59.:19:04.

And unfortunately Iraq's political elite, since 2010, since the very

:19:04.:19:08.

promising showingings in the 2010 elections where people did vote for

:19:08.:19:13.

coalitions that were crosssectarian and moderate. Since that time

:19:13.:19:16.

Iraq's political elites have unfortunately squadered the

:19:16.:19:20.

opportunity to engage, to take up that opportunity to have a real

:19:20.:19:27.

process of reconciliation. Dr Al Nahar how much does Syria

:19:27.:19:33.

complicate what is going on in Iraq. Are you getting a sill spillover

:19:33.:19:37.

from there? Syria -- a spillover from there? Syria is a big worry.

:19:37.:19:41.

Iraq has always had the view that both side of the Syrian conflict

:19:41.:19:44.

should not be armed. That will only escalate the situation and increase

:19:44.:19:50.

loss of life. Can I pursue that for a moment, today we have reported

:19:50.:19:54.

that the European Union, prompted by Britain and France is lifting

:19:54.:19:58.

the arms embargo. Your Government believes that is wrong? Absolutely,

:19:58.:20:02.

we believe arming one side or both sides or any side will just

:20:02.:20:07.

escalate the conflict and cause more loss of life. Including the

:20:07.:20:11.

Russians sending anti-aircraft missiles to the Assad regime?

:20:11.:20:14.

don't support that at all. We support the idea of encouraging

:20:14.:20:18.

both sides to sit down and negotiate a peaceful settlement.

:20:19.:20:23.

that using actually a spillover of violence. There are fighters moving

:20:23.:20:27.

around in that area and it is very difficult to quite keep track?

:20:27.:20:34.

indeed. What I mentioned that the extremist Sunni elements allied

:20:34.:20:39.

with the former militant ba'athists, they are causing all the bloodshed

:20:39.:20:44.

in Iraq. With the aim of stirring up sectarian war. This will not

:20:44.:20:47.

succeed, because the majority of Shias have resisted that. They want

:20:47.:20:55.

the unity of Iraq and they want the violence to stop. How bad do you

:20:55.:21:02.

worry it might get, you laid out an optimistic scenario, what is the

:21:02.:21:05.

pessimistic one? The real worry this time is because Syria is

:21:05.:21:10.

already in a deep low intractable and violent Civil War that if --

:21:10.:21:14.

deeply and intractable and violent Civil War, if Iraq is allowed to

:21:14.:21:17.

collapse at the moment the impact on the whole of the Middle East

:21:17.:21:20.

could be enormous. You could see a division of the Middle East by

:21:20.:21:25.

sectarian fault lines. We have already this week seen Hezbollah

:21:25.:21:29.

throw in its lot behind Assad. You know in a much more forceful way

:21:29.:21:34.

than we have seen before. We already have some involvement by

:21:34.:21:42.

elements of the Iraqi population in the Syrian crisis. If Iraq is

:21:42.:21:46.

allowed to collapse at this stage, we could see a vast expansion of

:21:46.:21:49.

the remit of the Syrian conflict. That doesn't been fit anyone.

:21:49.:21:52.

a final thought on that, does Britain and the United States still

:21:53.:21:56.

bear some responsibility for this do you think? I mentioned Colin

:21:56.:22:02.

Powell's dictum, if you brake it you own it? I believe that America

:22:02.:22:09.

-- "if you break it you own it"? I believe America must put more

:22:09.:22:13.

effort into trying to contain foreign interference in Iraq,

:22:13.:22:18.

possibly by the gulf states feeding those extremists in Iraq. There is

:22:18.:22:23.

a big role that the western powers can play. As far as the point

:22:23.:22:29.

concerned, Iraq will not collapse or go into Civil War. Because the

:22:29.:22:36.

people, the tribes, the Government and the politicians are behind the

:22:36.:22:41.

army and the police and the extremists are being isolated on a

:22:41.:22:48.

daily basis. Now imagine over the bank holiday weekend that you went

:22:48.:22:53.

for a report in the British countryside and came across some

:22:53.:22:59.

traditional species of animals, bears, bison, lynx, and one of

:22:59.:23:04.

these, a wolf. These were all traditionally British until human

:23:04.:23:08.

beings contributed to their extinction on our islands. Now the

:23:08.:23:13.

writer and broadcaster George Monbiot suggests a programme he

:23:13.:23:17.

calleds rewilding, turning unproductive farmland back over to

:23:17.:23:20.

nature. And perhaps bringing fellows like our stuffed friend

:23:21.:23:30.
:23:31.:23:33.

over there unstuffed. To most of us the Upland Moors are

:23:33.:23:42.

Britain at its most majestic. A magnificent natural landscape.

:23:42.:23:50.

One of our nation's last unspoilt wildernesses. But a growing

:23:51.:23:55.

campaign seeks to transform these landscapes forever. Turning

:23:55.:24:00.

Britain's moorland into this. The process is being called rewilding,

:24:00.:24:03.

the idea is to let nature take control of the landscape. To

:24:03.:24:09.

reverse thousands of years of democracycation, and allowing an --

:24:09.:24:13.

Dom messcation, and allowing ancient ecosystem like this one to

:24:13.:24:23.
:24:23.:24:25.

reassert themselves. Britain's rewilder in chief is George Monbiot.

:24:25.:24:29.

What went on here was mining and the trees were burnt and cut and

:24:29.:24:33.

cleared and you end up with this, a barren landscape. What you have

:24:33.:24:37.

here is heather and rough grassland is typical of the vegetation you

:24:37.:24:42.

get all over the world where you have had repeated reforestation,

:24:42.:24:47.

you get low vegetation like this. In Britain we fetishise it and say

:24:47.:24:52.

this is what we want to preserve. In the management plan they

:24:52.:24:58.

describe trees as undesirable and invasive species. His idea of what

:24:58.:25:03.

should happen is woodland like this, 20 years ago this was open moorland.

:25:03.:25:08.

All right we see this real transformation of the ecosystem. It

:25:08.:25:11.

was bleak and barren, there was very little living here, now we

:25:11.:25:15.

have the trees, the insects which are coming in and eating the tree,

:25:15.:25:20.

we have the birds eating the insects, we have underfloor things

:25:20.:25:25.

growing. Woodland on the whole is much more biodiverse and richer, it

:25:25.:25:28.

has more ecological niches, it has cover, which is what so many

:25:28.:25:33.

species need. But creating places like this means

:25:33.:25:38.

making some profound changes to the way land in Britain is managed.

:25:39.:25:43.

Starting by getting rid of the woolly ruminant from Mesopotamia,

:25:43.:25:47.

which George Monbiot clearly regards as an undesirable immigrant.

:25:47.:25:55.

You seem to have a bit of a problem with sheep? Yes, they are the white

:25:55.:26:01.

plague which has destroyed the vegetation. The white plague?

:26:01.:26:06.

they have deluded the entire upland ecosystem, they have reduced it to

:26:06.:26:12.

a bowling green with contours. This was a very rich, forested, abundant

:26:12.:26:17.

ecosystem with variety of species. Some will say George you are being

:26:17.:26:22.

niave, the sheep are here for an economic reason? I understand that,

:26:22.:26:27.

the really reason they are here because we pay for it. The average

:26:27.:26:32.

subsidy a hill farmer gets in Wales is �53,000. Not surprisingly these

:26:32.:26:37.

ideas are proving controversial, particularly with those who have

:26:37.:26:44.

most to lose like sheep farmers? have producing some food for the

:26:44.:26:49.

population of these hills. No other animal can do that, that is why we

:26:49.:26:52.

have sheep farmers in Wales. says if you were to get rid of the

:26:52.:26:56.

sheep and reintroduce some of the old trees and stuff that used to

:26:56.:27:03.

grow up there, you would have a much richer ecosystem? Five million

:27:04.:27:06.

years ago there was only a few thousand people living in the world,

:27:06.:27:11.

that is what is living in the UK today. We as farmers we have a job

:27:11.:27:18.

to feed the ever-increasing population in the world. A lot of

:27:18.:27:21.

these academics, they are very intelligent, but they haven't got

:27:21.:27:24.

much common sense. They are out-of- touch, that is coming from a

:27:24.:27:28.

practical farmer who has lived in the hills. I do believe if they

:27:28.:27:33.

tried to live in Wales and couldn't hack it, but we stick it and

:27:33.:27:37.

produce our food. The irony is that this place, the

:27:37.:27:40.

landscape that George Monbiot describes as a barren desert is

:27:41.:27:46.

actually a nature reserve. It is funded with public money and

:27:46.:27:52.

regarded by many as one of Wales's rural jewels.

:27:52.:27:56.

Wild Wilding is effectively standing back and letting something

:27:56.:28:01.

go. Estelle Bailey is responsible for managing this place, she is the

:28:01.:28:11.

head of the Montgomerie Wildlife Trust. Steve McMahon says we are

:28:11.:28:15.

now fetishising this as a wilderness, but the real wilderness

:28:15.:28:19.

thousands of years ago would look completely different from this?

:28:19.:28:24.

can't get back to what George is fantasising about. You seem to be

:28:24.:28:27.

saying natural means human intervention to manage ecosystems.

:28:27.:28:32.

George Monbiot is saying we can stand back and let the ecosystem do

:28:32.:28:36.

it themselves? That is the very traditional view of wild and

:28:36.:28:42.

rewilding. That isn't appropriate to the UK landscape. Why not?

:28:42.:28:48.

Simply scale. Spaces like this play a hugely important function for

:28:48.:28:52.

society. If we let this area here go completely back to tree cover,

:28:52.:28:56.

for example, the bog would dry up, where would we be then? We would

:28:56.:29:00.

not be able to store water. We would not be able to clear the

:29:00.:29:05.

water. Soil would begin to erode, the carbon would be released into

:29:05.:29:14.

the atmosphere. It is hugely judgmental.

:29:14.:29:18.

Supporters of rewilding are not just talking about getting rid

:29:18.:29:25.

sheep, they want to bring back species, including these.

:29:25.:29:29.

Our ecosystems are very bottom heavy, they are missing most of the

:29:29.:29:35.

top links in the great web of life. We are only beginning to discover

:29:35.:29:40.

how important certain species are as ecosystem engineers, as changing

:29:40.:29:45.

the world around them. Wolves are a very effective ecosystem engineer,

:29:45.:29:51.

when we were reintroduced to the Yellowstone Natoinal Park, within a

:29:51.:29:56.

few years the whole system had been changed. There were forests where

:29:56.:30:00.

there weren't before, because they frightened the dear out of the

:30:00.:30:06.

valleys. The buys son numbers began to rise -- bison began to rise

:30:06.:30:13.

because of the trees. Bears rose because of the carcasses left by

:30:13.:30:17.

the wolfs. Not everyone agrows releasing predators into the wild

:30:17.:30:22.

is a good idea in Yellowstone or elsewhere.

:30:22.:30:31.

A similar process is already under way here in Britain. The first

:30:31.:30:34.

extinct mammals have been reintroduced in Wales. I'm hoping

:30:34.:30:44.
:30:44.:30:45.

we will get a glimpse of some of them today. Not as frightening as

:30:45.:30:49.

wolves, perhaps, but talk of the reintroduction of beefers has been

:30:49.:30:54.

very controversial here in Wales d beefers, has been very

:30:54.:31:00.

controversial here in Wales. There is no breeding here, these two are

:31:00.:31:06.

female to as sage farmers' fears. They have to provide -- assuage

:31:06.:31:10.

farmers' fears, they have to provide evidence of a positive

:31:10.:31:14.

impact on the local environment. want to see a restitution of

:31:14.:31:17.

endless processes you don't know where they are going. By the

:31:17.:31:21.

introduction of exciting and dynamic and dangerous predators

:31:21.:31:24.

like wolves. People won't want to have wolves in Wales or Scotland?

:31:24.:31:29.

I'm not suggesting there is no danger at all. But the danger has

:31:29.:31:34.

been wildly exaggerated. George Monbiot wants to prompt a national

:31:34.:31:39.

debate about what it is we're actually trying to conserve. Should

:31:39.:31:44.

it be a landscape man leaves alone, or one in which we play an active

:31:44.:31:54.
:31:54.:31:54.

role. In short how wild should Britain's wilderness be. Eye guests

:31:54.:32:00.

are with me. Some of what George has said has hit a nerve with sheep

:32:00.:32:04.

farmers, what we have been trying to do and what we have been doing

:32:04.:32:07.

very successfully is managing a very diverse landscape. If you look

:32:07.:32:12.

at the UK as a whole we have an incredible diversity of landscapes

:32:12.:32:16.

because of the sheep grazing and management practices that we have

:32:16.:32:21.

been undertaking. I don't think that to eliminate farmers and sheep,

:32:21.:32:25.

for example, from that landscape you will be creating anything that

:32:25.:32:31.

helps with people's attachment to the countryside. At the moment we

:32:31.:32:34.

have accessible landscapes, multifunctional landscapes because

:32:34.:32:39.

of farming, because we are not only producing food but also active low

:32:39.:32:44.

managing our habitats. That people can access. The white plague

:32:44.:32:48.

probably wasn't your best way of winning over the sheep farmers

:32:48.:32:52.

sitting next to you, do you take on board some of that? We have to feed

:32:52.:32:56.

the population. The farmers do enjoy the land and want us to enjoy

:32:56.:33:01.

the land too? I'm not dissing sheep farmers, I don't like sheep, the

:33:02.:33:06.

farmer are fine. Sheep farmers without sheep would be fine? That

:33:07.:33:11.

would be perfect! I completely understand the cultural and

:33:11.:33:13.

traditional and linguistic advantages of having farmers in the

:33:13.:33:16.

hills and all the rest of it. I'm really not talking about

:33:16.:33:19.

eliminating all the farmers from the hills or anything. What I'm a

:33:19.:33:22.

talking about is giving farmers a choice. At the moment the subsidy

:33:22.:33:27.

system forces them to farm, or at least to clear the land if they are

:33:27.:33:30.

going to get their payments. I'm saying take away the Raul so

:33:30.:33:36.

farmers have a choice as to -- the rule so farmers have a choice as to

:33:36.:33:40.

whether chasing sheep over the hills or lying on a beach. You are

:33:40.:33:44.

saying smaller farms would get the subsidies and bigger ones won't. As

:33:44.:33:49.

a small farm could you get the subsidy or allow the land to return

:33:49.:33:53.

to the way it was at several thousand years ago? If you cap the

:33:53.:33:57.

subsidy, all you will do is get the farmers who will take that initial

:33:57.:34:03.

subs dough but the rest of the land will have to increase production

:34:03.:34:10.

from it to continue our businesses for the future. I'm entering the

:34:10.:34:15.

business and don't want to be bothered with acreage because I

:34:15.:34:17.

have my eyes open to business opportunities when they are there.

:34:17.:34:23.

You won't be limited to acreage, but no supsidies beyond 100

:34:23.:34:26.

hectares, it seems wrong to be paying the biggest landowners, some

:34:26.:34:30.

of the itch richest people in Britain out of the pocket --

:34:30.:34:34.

richest people in Britain out of the pocket of the poorest people in

:34:34.:34:41.

Britain. This is a very fine stuffed fellow here, he may be

:34:41.:34:44.

particularly nice in some kinds of habitats, I can't imagine him on

:34:45.:34:49.

your farm in Kent. What is wrong with the landscape now and the mix

:34:49.:34:53.

now. People love the British countryside? Some people do, I

:34:53.:34:57.

don't. I find it amazing our National Parks, you go to other

:34:57.:35:04.

parks in the world, parks are rich in life. They have carnivores and

:35:04.:35:08.

herbvors, and the ecological structures. You wouldn't want to

:35:08.:35:12.

walk with wolves in the countryside? In the Scottish

:35:12.:35:17.

Highlands they do very well. There is massive surplus population of

:35:17.:35:20.

dear. If you think about the population of the country and their

:35:20.:35:24.

attachment to the environment. It comes through farming, families can

:35:24.:35:27.

go out into the countryside and see sheep on the hills and farmers

:35:27.:35:31.

managing the countryside. They see wildlife as part of that.

:35:31.:35:35.

problem is sheep on the hills is all you see. All the uplands of

:35:35.:35:39.

Britain are the same. That is not true at all. They have been reduced

:35:39.:35:44.

to bowling greens. You couldn't bowl a ball down through the

:35:44.:35:47.

vegetation of the moorlands. Its like we saw in the film, the

:35:47.:35:52.

vegetation is less than knee height, that is the most you will get. The

:35:52.:35:58.

great majority of our uplands, you spend two hours in a bushy suburban

:35:58.:36:02.

garden, you will see more birds of a variety of species than five

:36:02.:36:06.

miles down the road in the park. You are suffering from ecological

:36:06.:36:10.

boredom you said, you need to come out and see what is happening in

:36:10.:36:13.

the countryside really R I can talk outside my door at the moment, blur

:36:13.:36:19.

flies are just coming in, the blue butterflies are flying off at my

:36:19.:36:24.

feet when I go out on my farm. Such a diverse mix.

:36:24.:36:27.

Is part of the core of this that you would have to have no people.

:36:27.:36:32.

It is not the sheep it is the people. If there were half the

:36:32.:36:36.

population or twice the land some of this might be manageable? A wolf

:36:36.:36:42.

turned up in the Netherlands in 2011, they were welcomed. That is a

:36:42.:36:49.

more crowded country than we are. It doesn't have the large expanse

:36:49.:36:53.

of land. You talk about this being a densely populated country, it is,

:36:53.:36:57.

but there are huge expanses where there are not people just sheep.

:36:57.:37:03.

you see practical value in this, beavers and other animals could be

:37:03.:37:08.

reintroduced and we will see whrat Welsh experiment will show?

:37:08.:37:15.

implications of this on a practical scale. The danger is isolating an

:37:15.:37:20.

urban population to become more urban and not have that attachment.

:37:20.:37:23.

It is just the opposite. It is bringing people back into the

:37:23.:37:28.

countryside by making it so much more thrilling and exciting.

:37:28.:37:37.

Carey. School trips at the moment have access. These are so wild low

:37:37.:37:45.

exaggerated. Is there a better way for teachers

:37:45.:37:50.

to teach our children. The founder of the Khan Academy, which gets

:37:50.:37:53.

more than six million stew departments in the United States,

:37:53.:37:58.

to learn the principles of subjects like mathematics by watching lesson

:37:58.:38:06.

on-line. Leaving teachers free to offer one-to-one help and guidance.

:38:06.:38:09.

He's getting the attention of the Education Secretary. First we

:38:09.:38:13.

explain how the academy works. The basic look at the classroom

:38:13.:38:16.

hasn't changed too much over time. We still do education in a very

:38:16.:38:21.

traditional way. They have lessons where he they sit

:38:21.:38:25.

in rows and they have exams at the end of the year and at the end of

:38:25.:38:30.

each stage. And then they leave. It is a pretty industrial process,

:38:30.:38:35.

designed for a 19th century-style economy. The traditional model for

:38:35.:38:40.

education works like this. You have a classroom with pupils and a

:38:40.:38:42.

teacherer, who imparts information. The pupils then take that

:38:42.:38:49.

information home and put it to the test, with attempting exercises as

:38:49.:38:52.

homework. What if we have it around the wrong way. What if we could use

:38:52.:38:58.

the power of technology to liberate the pupils and the teacher from

:38:58.:39:03.

this one-size-fits-all approach. That is the idea behind the Khan

:39:03.:39:11.

Academy, set up by a former hedge fund manager turned educational

:39:11.:39:14.

entrepeneur. Michael Gove thinks Mr Khan is a visionary and truly great

:39:14.:39:19.

man. He also has the support and now money of Bill Gates behind him,

:39:19.:39:23.

who discovered his videos whilst trying to help his own children.

:39:23.:39:30.

There is a website that I have just been using with my kids recently

:39:30.:39:35.

called Kahan Academy, one guy doing unbelievable 15-minute tutorals.

:39:35.:39:42.

The way it works is this, the pupil would watch video lessons at home f

:39:42.:39:46.

they don't understand they can rewind and have another look

:39:46.:39:50.

(repeats) without holding the rest of the class back. Those who get it

:39:50.:39:55.

first time can crack on at their own pace. Then at school the pupils

:39:55.:39:59.

will do what they used to do as homework. This time with the

:39:59.:40:06.

support of the teacher or another class made to help them. The Khan

:40:06.:40:09.

academy says it is already working in 20,000 classrooms across the

:40:10.:40:14.

world. These teachers have used technology to humanise the

:40:14.:40:19.

classroom. They took a fundamental low dehumanising experience, a

:40:19.:40:24.

bunch of 30 kids with their fingers on their lips and not allowed to

:40:24.:40:29.

interact with them. The teacher giving a one-size-fits-all out

:40:29.:40:33.

there to faces slightly antagonistic, now we are

:40:33.:40:39.

interacting with each other. We are just seeing in education the

:40:39.:40:44.

biggest revolution since the printing press. There is no doubt

:40:44.:40:53.

digital learning by the Khan Academy and other providers will

:40:53.:40:57.

transform education in the next 10- 20 years in schools as is already

:40:57.:41:02.

happening in higher education. is what one of those videos looks

:41:02.:41:05.

like, don't worry there is no test later. If you know the number of

:41:05.:41:10.

protons in the element, you know what that element is. This system

:41:10.:41:15.

isn't about replacing lessons with videos, it is about making shower

:41:15.:41:21.

each pupil understands each topic before they move on to the next.

:41:21.:41:25.

Under the traditional model the class has to keep moving, they had

:41:25.:41:30.

to make progress. Meaning some children get left behind with huge

:41:30.:41:35.

gaps in their understanding. learning to guy your bicycle, I

:41:35.:41:39.

give you a lecture ray head of and give you the bycicle. I come back

:41:39.:41:43.

after two weeks and say you are having trouble taking left turn and

:41:43.:41:51.

you can't quite stop. You are an 80% cyclist. I put a C stamp on

:41:51.:41:59.

your forehead and I say here is a unicycle. As ridiculous as that

:41:59.:42:05.

sounds that is what happens happening in classroom. Big data,

:42:05.:42:11.

the pupil, teacher and the parent can get highly granular data about

:42:11.:42:20.

what's happening in the classroom or what is coming next. No longer

:42:20.:42:25.

with be a bar to education, and it goes for kids around the world.

:42:25.:42:30.

We're joined now by the founder of the company. How did teachers react

:42:30.:42:34.

to this. Do they feel threatened that you are trying to do them out

:42:34.:42:40.

of a job? It depends how they perceive us, if you read a

:42:40.:42:45.

newspaper report and people read about this on-line virtual

:42:45.:42:50.

education stuff. This is a kneejerk reaction, will this be Amazon.com

:42:50.:42:58.

trying to replace Barnes and Noble. We are strong about it and as the

:42:58.:43:02.

report highlighted, we are in no way about replacing a physical

:43:02.:43:06.

expowerence, we are about trying to make it more powerful. The teachers

:43:07.:43:11.

who work with us and ups that, and we have been working with enits of

:43:12.:43:16.

thousands of classroom, close with many out here in the states and in

:43:16.:43:20.

the world. They feel more energised and what they got into the

:43:20.:43:27.

profession for. They feel they have finally time to break out of that

:43:27.:43:31.

factory model and this on day one and two. And adapt their strengths

:43:31.:43:35.

to the strengths of the students. wondered whether you would concede

:43:35.:43:39.

one of the biggest problems in education is children becoming

:43:39.:43:43.

demotivate. They think maths is hard, I can't do it, and then they

:43:43.:43:52.

go, C, DaE and down rather than up. How could this help them? You have

:43:52.:44:02.
:44:02.:44:03.

hit the nail on had he. In all ga bra class you get -- algebra class

:44:03.:44:09.

you get that and people saying when do I have to put this down. And you

:44:09.:44:12.

don't see that in other classes because the students are

:44:12.:44:16.

fundamentally engaged. In math class they are feeling their self-

:44:16.:44:19.

esteem is being constantly bombarded. The reason they feel

:44:19.:44:23.

that way is they get through arithmetic, only understanding 80-

:44:23.:44:30.

90% of it. They are pushed into pre-algerbra is harder because they

:44:30.:44:34.

don't understand arithmetic, then they are pushed ray head and by the

:44:34.:44:37.

time they get to calculus they are not understanding anything at all.

:44:37.:44:42.

If you allow people of all levels to fill in the gaps and master

:44:42.:44:48.

concepted, before there is no chance to do it. In an algebra

:44:48.:44:53.

class you are afraid because you can't multiply decimals. Now you

:44:53.:44:57.

have your friends and the teacher there to help you. The teacher has

:44:57.:45:02.

tools to identify the gap. Whether you talk about affluent

:45:02.:45:06.

neighbourhoods, charter schools and independent schools, if you allowed

:45:06.:45:13.

those who fill in the gaps they can be accelerated. The rich/poor, also

:45:13.:45:17.

we have problems with sometimes malnourished kids who go to school

:45:17.:45:22.

hungry, or ones with troubled backgrounds. Does this not appeal

:45:22.:45:26.

more to those families who can afford them to have a lap stop toe

:45:26.:45:32.

look at this stuff? I think that is a major -- a lap stop to look at

:45:32.:45:36.

this stuff? I think that is a problem we are dependant on

:45:36.:45:43.

accessability. You have 75% here in access to the Internet. We hope the

:45:44.:45:49.

costs will get cheaper every day, we are right now, because it tend

:45:49.:45:54.

to be educated families who have access and know about us. We are

:45:54.:45:59.

being disproportion nationally used if, you can't give afterschool

:45:59.:46:03.

programmes in the inner city, it is powerful for them if not more so

:46:03.:46:13.
:46:13.:46:38.

than for Bill Gat, he's children. That's all tonight, we loaf you

:46:38.:46:43.

with unique visualisation of flight paths around the globe created by a

:46:43.:46:53.
:46:53.:47:33.

transport planner from the Good evening the weather is mixed

:47:33.:47:36.

over the next couple of days. We are keeping sunshine to the North

:47:36.:47:41.

West, parts of northern Ireland, western Scotland, cooler and

:47:41.:47:46.

cloudier along the east coast of Scotland with outbreaks of rain.

:47:46.:47:51.

Not affecting Northern Ireland, top temperatures 17-18. We could get a

:47:51.:47:57.

few degrees higher than that across western Scotland. Across the east

:47:57.:48:01.

coast cloudy, rain through Aberdeen, down towards Edinburgh, rain

:48:01.:48:06.

sitting across northern England and the risk of heavier downpours at

:48:06.:48:13.

the time. A little on the grey side for the south coast of Kent and

:48:13.:48:16.

Sussex. In Hampshire and Dorset they will start to break the cloud

:48:16.:48:23.

up. The rest of whales after a bright start will see the cloud

:48:23.:48:28.

increasing we might see the odd spot of rain to finish off the day.

:48:28.:48:32.

For Wednesday the North West will have the best of the sunshine. The

:48:32.:48:36.

east coast just 13 degrees. By the time we get to Thursday we are

:48:36.:48:39.

looking at some brighter skies across England and Wales, always

:48:39.:48:44.

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