21/06/2013 Newsnight

Will Brazil be engulfed by protests this weekend. Lauded as an economic

success with an apparently popular and long-serving left-wing

Government. Last night more than a million people took to the streets,

with bigger demonstrations promised to come, where will it end?

Also tonight our very own spy agency, GCHQ, is reported to be

secretly trawling the Internet and holding massive amounts of our

personal data. It is not illegal, but should it be?

This, playing and talking live in the studio the Bond quartet, is

their success down to their beauty or classical musical skills and

does it matter either way? Good evening, Brazil's President

emerged from an emergency cabinet meeting today without any message

or apparent plan to quell the protests that have snowballed to

such an extent that it was said last night more than a million

people were on the streets in more many cities. A rise in bus fares

and the hosting of World Cup and the Olympics, may not be the

circumstances to aggregate the state of the country, but it

appears to be what's happening. Now how will the Government react for

the protests planned for the weekend.

First of all, there was no apparent message from the cabinet meeting,

are you hearing anything now? we have been told within the last

couple of hours that President Dilma Rousseff is preparing to

address the nation. A lot of people were asking on social networks

today and last night at the peak of the violence where is our President.

It is clear she is now going to speak to the nation, perhaps as

soon as tonight, perhaps within the next few days. I think it will be

the most critical broadcast of her presidency, a million people more

on the streets of many Brazilian cities, a real test of the

Government. Talking to a presidential spokesman, there was a

wounded talk, they talked about the 40 million lifted out of poverty in

recent years, the expansion of the health and education system. They

say they don't disagree with the demonstrators, they want to talk to

them. When the protestors were originally talking about the

transport fares, those increases were immediately reversed. What

will the President have to say in this message, would she have to

show a change of policy, all this money going to the World Cup that

apparently should be going to education, the protestors say,

would she have to do something concrete to stop the protestors in

their tracks? This is part of the challenge. I'm not entirely

convinced the Government knows what to say. In talking to them they get

a sense of surprise and shock and even alarm. One of the most

striking images last night was of the demonstrators at the front of

the Foreign Ministry, this landmark building in the sent of the capital,

starting a fire. I think ministers were visibly shaken by that. Their

challenge is the fact the movement is so diverse and people are

raising so many concerns. They are talking about tax issues, they are

talking about spending on education and health. They are talk about the

vast cost of hosting the World Cup and the Olympics, and with so many

issues it is difficult to know what the President can say beyond

offering talks to try to understand better. They are saying to us

tonight part of their difficulty is that this is a moment without a

structure and without a clear leadership, who do we talk to.

What is behind these protests and is it part of a bigger global

phenomenon? Our Economics Editor Paul Mason reports.

This is what its like when a million people decide economic

growth is not enough. The streets of Rio last night proved that this

has now gone way beyond a protest over bus fares.

There was sporadic violence. The police here use a mixture of gas,

stun grenades and plastic bullets. The protestors a mixture of fire

and moral force. And in places this week the strains on law enforcement

have shown. Here a riot cop refuses orders and is sent packing by his

commander. Everywhere the symbolism of a protest led by educated youth.

Irony, tolerance, the national flag and the football shirt. How did a

movement over bus fares escalate to this, a protest poster says it all.

A city of 11 million people with a distinctly minimalise underground

railway map. -- minimalist underground railway

map. This was the symbol of skewed priorities, Brazil instead had

spent billions of stadiums and infrastructure to host the World

Cup. And when people protested a familiar pattern emerged.

started to get bigger when we started seeing that the police were

really being aggressive to the protestors. Then there was this

feeling of solidarity like this can't be happening, we have to have

the freedom to express ourselves. It had been simplering for months

if you knew where to look -- simplering for months if you knew

where to look. Here a cup match amid the chaos has seen slum

clearance on the perimeter. Overall 170,000 people will be affected by

things like this. To make next year's World Cup happen the

Government is spending $16 billion, not far short of the country's

annual education budget. We are talking about a huge urban crisis

in every city in Brazil. The policies are made for few, there is

huge profit on for instance estate speculation. The World Cup issue is

also an urban issue. Many of the works and investments being done

for the World Cup are very unequal, they are, for instance, expeling

lots of people from their homes. There is about 170,000 people who

have been threatened or are under threat of losing their homes

because they live around the Stadio, and the big infra-- Stadio, and the

big infrastructure investments happening around the stadiums.

Brazil is among the four big countries, the BRIC, that made the

term "Third World" go out of fashion. Rapid growth has pulled 36

million people into the middle- class. Even the technical measure

of inequality is falling. Now inflation is rising, above 6%. If

the protests started on the left and the educatedout, it is now

drawing in the trade unions and people from the slums. Its focus

has turned to corruption, cronyism and the political elite, full stop.

The city of Sao Paulo the activists are trying to call it off. It has

now got completely blurred, people yesterday burned flags of all the

party, some of them were absolutely against any party. And that's why

the left-wing moreed traditional movements have decided not to

protest any more here in Sao Paulo. Including the free press movement

have said their demand was met and they are not going to protest any

more. But in mass revolts things will get

out of hand. Brazil's President, a former Marxist guerrilla has

promised to address the nation soon. For now she's reliant on force,

concessions and a U-turn by activists to make this particular

carnival go away. Paul is with me now. This danger

that without a leadership we have anarchy and without any leadership

you have more violence? Brazil is one of the BRIC countries, and

three out of the four BRIC countries have now had unrest in

the past 18 months, the Russian post electoral unrest, the Indian

unrest following the gang rape and now this. Own in Turkey two weeks

ago an honourary BRIC country we are seeing now the emergence across

the rapidly developing world of a problem of young urban educated

people who, wherever the initial spark is, whatever the initial

problem is, they come to the streets and they express a general

frustration with, not the economic deal they are getting, but the

political, the freedom, the ability to express, all these minutor

demands, relatively minor. It is a left-wing Government? It is

democratically elected and loft wing. Its priority for ten years

and more, even before power, has been to develop Brazil for the poor.

These are the people who some of them used to be the poor, but they

are the Facebookers, and people I'm interacting with on Twitter right

now are there, their perspective on that is they want a modern country

where they can affect things. was said within the last hour that

it was announced that President Rousseff is going to address the

nation as early as tomorrow. Is there anything she can actually say

do you think that will break this down? The workers party, the PT,

the ruling party has a massive machine. It has the kind of machine

that, in fact, the ruler of Turkey had and on this occasion it is kind

of embedded among the masses. Some of whom will be protesting. It can

help deflate this. But what it needs to do is to be able to find

leaders to talk to, find out what their demands are. We are pretty

clear what they are, and then do things. And that's a challenge if

you have never faced this kind of protest before. Thank you very much

indeed. I'm joined by the Brazilian ambassador to the UK. It is a

pretty sorry scene to see stun guns and teargas and so forth out there

on the streets. When these are essentially people that have

supported this Government? It is quite true, of course when you have

one million people mass mobility, it creates different types of

volatility. You don't have control of the streets? It is difficult,

but of course we have the police there to protect the protestors

themselves and protect property, because looters infiltrate and they

create havoc. But we see what happened, we were just talking

about it in Turkey. When the educated young middle-class

disaffected are outen on the streets, they are hard to shift --

out on the streets, they are hard to shift? Brazil is a little

different to the scenario. We have a thorough democratic process, the

full participation of everybody. The movement shows some people feel

not adequately represented. We have had a news flash that the President

will speak in two hours time, 1.00am our time. It shows the

urgency she is addressing, we know the road to the Sao Paulo Airport

is shut and protests are planned. Will she announce a change of

policy? She will announce what she already annuciated. She hears and

wants to be able to perceive the message and to see what can be done.

If you have $16 million spent on the World Cup and people protesting

that really is the equivalent of what is spent on education and what

is spent on education is falling far short. What does she do, does

she announce a big financial project? I think there is a

volatility, there is a difusion in the message. You have to understand

when the World Cup was announced to Brazil it was global jubilation,

among all the people. The same thing with the Olympic Games. There

is a volatility in this issue. Of course hosting the World Cup brings

enormous possibilities as well. When you have something as iconic,

for example in Turkey and Taksim Square, as initially a garden

project, when you have favelas removed for the World Cup, it is

those things that spark bigger things? You would if you had

favelas being moved, that is not the case. We had stadia being built

which got significant investments. We have significant improvement in

transportation which is very beneficial to the population in

general. So a number of investments were required any way. At the

moment though the Confederation Cup is going on, which is the precursor

to the World Cup, do you think you will get to the World Cup, will it

still be held in Brazil? I have no doubt whatsoever. Amongst one

million protestors the games of the Confederation Cup were held and

very well without any individual with issues in the games themselves.

If this was to happen next year, with the influx of people coming to

the World Cup, that would be disastrous for BR sill, you have to

get it sorted out -- Brazil, you have to get it sorted out? We don't

want to control people, but we have a responsibility to incorporate

them into the democratic process. That is what we want to do. You say

you can't control people, when the images are flashed around on social

media are of police controlling for their own safety, but coming up

against rioters, for whatever reason, that does not look like a

Government in control? Well as I said, the mobility and mass

mobilisation generates their own volatility of that nature, this

happens everywhere. It is important to avoid that these mass

demonstrations don't form into looting and damaging Government or

private property. What Paul has said and what is true, you pooled

$36 million into the middle -- you pould36 million people into the

middle-class, but people see high taxes and corruption in the

Government and appalling transport system. A lot of people don't feel

they are getting the share of the action they should get for being a

BRIC country? Brazil is a big and developing country with many

challenges. It is an ar aic country in many dimensions but very modern

in other dimensions. What we are witnessing here is besides the

traditional problems which are the central problems, incorporating

everybody into full citizenship. We have more than problems that you

witness everywhere, including here in Europe where you see people who

don't feel represented, they chose to have different types of

representation in different relations throughout the continent.

In Brazil obviously this is happening as well. But this is a

different characteristic of problems. It would be ironic for

President Rousseff, who herself used to be a guerrilla, if there

ended up being revolution in Brazil? I don't see it that way.

First of all revolution is not really the process in Brazil. We

are a very tolerant country and a co-operative country and diverse

country and we pride ourselves on that. You used to have military

coup, have you gone beyond that? Very much so, I think we have

established two or three things that have been fundamental, the

democratic process, a social inclusion process and an economic

growth process. You will be listening out for the message in

two hours time? Certainly I will. In a moment the Bond quartet. Now

the UK's listening post, QCHQ can tap more global e-mails, Facebook

posts and internet traffic, including calls, than any other

surveillance agency in the world, according to documents shown to the

Guardian by the National Security Agency's whistleblower, Edward

Snowdon. This latest revelations claims GCHQ's operation, code named

Tempora, has been running for 18 months and the information is

shared with the American NSA. If so what is the information worth and

to whom? I'm joined by our diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Tell

me what is it that GCHQ has been doing? Another set of revelations

based on e-mails from the agency in the Guardian. E seingsly --

essentially some years back a lot of traffic was from phone lines and

on to fibre optic, GCHQ wanted to tap into those and they hit on the

idea of physically tapping into the fibre optics where they enter and

leave the UK. We know under this operation Tempora, or Project

Tempora, by 2011 they were tapping in physically tapping into the

infrastructure more than 200 points around the UK. Now obviously

billions of bits of data streaming by, you can only hold it in this

buffer because of the quantity of data for three days with the

content phone call, e-mails, all the rest of it. After that it slips

out, the metadata, the numbers called, the e-mail address, that

kind of thing, stay in the system for 30 days then that goes too.

Even while it is being held in that system it has to be massively

narrowed down, there is a process of reduction based on the type of

files, whether they have attachments all this kind of stuff

designed to zero right in on 40,000 selectors programmed into the

system. That could be a single person's phone number or e-mail

address or it could be a term used in the e-mail like a name of a

particular chemical used in refining drugs or anything like

that and 31,000 of those selectors from the NSA. That is the scope of

the programme that the Guardian has said it has uncovered. That is the

scope, but how you are pricing is it? There is -- surprising is it?

There is always a difference between capability and performance

in this technical gathering programme s of intelligence. I have

to admit I find it moderately surprising that GCHQ was operating

on this scale. We have to remember these slides that Edward Snowdon

first brought into the public domain from the NSA, these e-mails

and other presentations given by GCHQ they are selling jobs. They

are showing off? They are institutional showing off to other

members of the intelligence community and Governments more

widely, we can do this and that for you. Hence some of the

misunderstandings actually early on was what Prism was, was it going to

the companies without them knowing. We know it wasn't now. In the UK

test the limbtations are still there. Of processing power, of law

and of storage of data that mean that although they are handling

this massive amount, and boasting that this is more at any one moment

than the NSA can handle, the actual use they can make of it is more

limited than the NSA with its massive resources. Where does it

take the debate, we are in the midst of the arguments about the

called snooper's charter? argument that is made in the

articles this evening is that the Regulation of Investigatory Powers

Act of 2000, the law under which it is done is out of date. Britain

needs to move on. The secure crates have been trying to move it on to

things like BlackBerry message and other internet apps which they are

not sure they have the legal authority to do. It may be that

people on the other side of the argument create an opportunity for

them. They are so appalled by what is going on that they demand new

legislation that may allow the two sides to thrash it out and put this

on a more proper legal basis. Thank you very much.

Now Jenni Murray the presenter of Woman's Own, made her debut as a

conductor with the BBC Philharmonic, with the overture to Bizet's kaerm

men. She had a few hours training which hails kaerm men as a wild

seductress. The choice of music might be more than opt. In an

article penned for the Times she implied that women in classical

music still have a tough time making it big, but using your looks

goes a long way to help. They are the hard working artists bringing

classical music to the masses. According to Jenni Murray to have

to look right to play the part. She said despite the world of classical

music becoming more female-friendly, the women seemed to be most welcome

are the ones that go along with the idea that sex sells. She picked out

the award winning Scottish violinist Nicola Benedetti being

marketed in that way. As well as the trumpeter Alison Balsom. With

me now are Tania, Elsbeth and Gaie from the group Bond.

It seems Michael White that the argument that some seem to be

eVinceing that by laweding these type of artist who are attractive

and so forth and make popular classical music, in some way this

is a dumbing down? And it is, I can understand why it happens. One

thing that is the question on classical people at the moment is

how do replace the ageing audience. One is investing in glamour

palmaging, to some extent that works, but you have to be careful

that you are not compromising what you are selling and you have to be

careful you are not selling a lie. The lie can be that the pretty

person is not the best person. can be the line because in the face

of Bond all these women here are classically trained. Are you saying

the kind of music they are playing sells them short? Bond are with

what they are. I'm sure they are very successful at what they do.

They are not my cup of tea but it is not the end of the world. That

happens. I don't really want to criticise Bond for what they are.

What you are essentially saying and it is, what you are essentially

saying is if you are to all intents of what is regarded as being

attractive, in a way that is a problem because it detracts from

what you are doing? I think it can misdirect the public. If the public

are encouraged to think that the pretty artist is the great artist

then what happens to the artist who is short and fat and pimplely and

unattractive. Sometimes it is the short fat artist who is the great

artist. Sometimes it is the attractive artist. Let's just come

back on this you two? Basically I think it is very unfair that the

two artists who she has attacked they are fantastic musicians.

Nicola Benedetti and Alison Balsom. They are classical performers. We

are actually a crossover group we compose our own music we don't call

ourselves classical, we see ourselves as another category. To

pick on these two who just happen to be attractive women is sexist in

a way itself. Do you think, are you concerned that what people say

about you being glamorous detracts from your music or have you made a

calculation that you just go for it any way? Right from the beginning

when we started we wanted to do something different with Bond we

formed to do something more of a pop presentation. We just wanted to

dress in way that made us feel confident on stage. You say you are

a crossover group. Are you concerned in a way that you are not

playing what some people regard as challenging music? No, we compose

and arrange and produce our music, we are classically trained

performers. 15 years we have been working towards this? I'm sure they

are great at what they do. But beauty is not the issue it is how

you sound that is the issue. That is the basis on which you should be

judged. Exactly, when Jenni Murray talks about Nicola Benedetti who an

artist who has strived since a child, nobody practices more than

Nicola and she is incredibly talented, is that fair or not?

of the other points that Jenni Murray was making is there is too

much pressure on people to look good. I don't agree with that the

most famous classical musicians in the world are not the most

beautiful but they still sell out Opera Houses and concerts and they

have a market. The thing about the older audience, people tend to get

into classical audience as they get older, I appreciate it more than as

a teenager, it is not a declining market, everybody is getting old we

will get to the concert hall at some point I feel. I'm not glins

glamour and it is a useful marketing tool. It is a useful

marketing tool. You have to be aware of the consequences. Of

course you have to market classical music, you have to go and find an

audience. At the moment you have to find a younger audience. You look

around a concert and it is quite true there is hardly anybody under

40 very often, what do you do about that. Yes, glamour and packaging is

part of the solution. But it is a solution you have to use very, very

carefully. Surely an audience can tell, somebody can be you know as

beautiful as the Queen of Sheba, and not very good and they are not

going to make it, are they? audience can't always tell. There

is a very innocent audience out there. The audience can't tell?I

think that is a little bit disrespectful to an audience. Also

everybody has, we have had a lifetime of training and Nicola

Benedetti, show has studied very hard and just because she as

attractive she is discriminated against them. Would you say the

same over handsome tenors? In an ideal world on a opera stage every

romantic tenor would be tall and dark and handsome and every lead

would be handsome too, that is not the case, you cast for the voice

and talent. When you say you can expect audiences to know. You can't

very often they are seduced by marketing and it can redirect your

attention. I think of lots of different opera singers who are not

particularly handsome? When you go to a concert and opera, opera has

the visual but a classical concert is about the music. It could be

anybody on the stage, if they can't move you emotionally it doesn't

matter. Maybe we will see you play in jeans? We have done that before

many times. I think you have to go and get ready for something. Thank

you all very much indeed. And we have got tomorrow morning's front

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 56 seconds

pages. And we have got nationwide Well we finish tonight soon but at

the end of the longest day of the year, with a performance by our

guest Bond. Here they are with a piece penned by their cellist

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 56 seconds

Well this weekend is going to be cool, showery and with quite a

strong wind especially across many western and southern areas of the

UK. And the showers could be heavy as well. Possibly with hail and

thunder, particularly across Northern Ireland and western parts

of Scotland. So these two areas I think one or two downpours on the

cards. If you live the other side of Scotland, Aberdeenshire, Murray,

the weather may turn out fairly decent. Hopping across the border

to England it is a mish-mash, sunny spells and showers. The weather

could turn out to be quite good through the afternoon, but it will

be windy. Through the Dover strait we are talking about a gale force

wind. That wind will be strong across the southern coast, right

down to the tip of Cornwall. In some spots winds will be gusting

around about 40 or 50 miles an hour. If you are in the wind and rain it

will feel on the cool side. Very similar weather across the southern

coasts of Wales here around the bay as well. The weather won't change

an awful lot through the course of Saturday and into Sunday either.

Let's have a look at some other places around the world and see

what is going on across Europe. In Oslo temperatures of 18 degrees,

recently we had a heatwave here, now it is easing off but the real