24/06/2013 Newsnight

A devastating blow, Stephen Lawrence's father gives us his

reings and r action to claims that the police tried to smear his

family. I want a public inquiry, a full public inquiry into all the

stuff that was happening during the time of my son's death right back

up until now. I want everything to be revealed. An undercover cop says

he was asked to find dirt on the Lawrence family and help discredit

campaigners. How could this happen? We will hear tonight from an

activist who knew the undercover police concerned, the Lawrence

family lawyer and a former undercover Met family officer.

Brazil. Protest leaders meet the President, we are in Rio to find

out who they are and what they want? We want healthy, better

education. We want a country free of corruption. The plane from

Moscow took off to Havana full of journalist, but without the man who

exposed the secret world of NSA and GCHQ. Where is Edward Snowdon. We

will speak to Mark Urban and the former head of the NSA.

And The Dark Knight? There were signs saying "die Jews".

Rifkind mission brought -- the Kindertransport brought thousands

out of Nazi Germany to Britain. We will hear their stories.

Good evening there is nobody to peace for the Lawrence familiarly,

just more anger and dismay. 20 years after Stephen Lawrence's

murder, a former undercover police officers claims he was sent out by

chiefs at Scotland Yard to try to dish the dirt, to discredit the

Lawrence's and the family's campaign for justice. He came up

with nothing, and today the Prime Minister described the allegations

as horrific and pledged today get the truth out. The allegations

revealed by Channel 4's Dispatches and the Guardian are to be the

subject of two existing inquiries into police activities. But not as

Neville Lawrence is demanding, a public inquiry.

First we have this. Two decades ago black teenager Stephen Lawrence was

stabbed to death in an unprovoked attack. It took 18 years to

successfully convict two men. An inquiry later found the process had

been dogged by institutional racism. But this morning a long shadow

stretched longer still. It was alleged that as Stephen's family

and friends grieved the policemen went undercover amongst them.

wanted any intelligence that could have smeared the campaign, yes,

there is this general remit. So had I, through my circles, come up with

something along the lines of the family were political activists, if

somebody in the family was involved in demonstrations. Drug dealers?

Anything. What they would have done with the intelligence I can't call

it, but that is our remit. Not just for them, that is always our remit

when we are out there. After the vixs last year of two men for

lawyer -- convictions last year of two men or the murder, there was an

independent review ordered that police corruption shielded the

killers of Stephen Lawrence. Today the Prime Minister was also quick

to respond. This is worrying, that is why two investigations, one of

them being led by the Chief Constable of another police force

are under way. And the Home Secretary is acting swiftly to make

sure that these investigations cover all of the potential

allegations and we get to the bottom of this as rapidly as

possible. After undercover police officer Mark Kennedy was revealed

to have spent years infiltrating environmental groups, an inquiry

then recommended greater scrutiny and management of undercover

operations. Now two inquiries will look at these fresh revelations. An

on going one into the met police's special demonstrations squad, or

SDS, Operation Herne, it is a more general look into undercover

policing. It is overseen by Mick Creedon, Chief Constable of

Derbyshire. Barrister Mark Ellison is also already investigating

allegations of corruption in the original Lawrence investigation. He

will now have access to anything discovered about SDS involvement.

In fact there is about 12-15 inquiries and reviews happening at

the moment within the Met and outside, into undercover policing.

But no-one inquiry is actually looking at the whole thing of every

aspect. What Theresa May announced today doesn't go far enough. The

fact is we don't know if this is still happening, it is not really

good enough that the Met investigates itself on something

this serious. Honestly, it worries me that it could still be happening.

Jenny Jones is joined by the former Director of Public Prosecutions.

Chief Constable Creedon, who is conducting one of the

investigations into these matters, he's a police officer, obviously he

said that actually the police are the best people to investigate the

police. Well, no, they are not. Just as barristers are not the best

people to investigate barristers or doctors are not the best people to

investigate doctors, we need independents, we need some distance

from what went on. We need the scrutiny of a judicial figure

considering the material in public, issuing a considered report with

findings and recommendations. Politicians of all sides have been

shocked by these revelations. But the Government thinks that the time

isn't right for a full scale public independent inquiry. Their dilemma

is how to balance that decision with also reacting sufficiently to

the public outcry. And over time their decision may come under

pressure. Many in Westminster believe this morning's revelations

are just the start of it. The undercover policeman alleged he

had other targets, including Lawrence's best friend, Duwayne

Brooks, who was with him on the night he died. Francis said he

uncovered evidence to have Brooks arrested and charged with criminal

damage. But the case of thrown out by a judge as an abuse of the legal

process. Myself and another SDS officer went

through the material we had, the media we had, and between us we had

identified him participating in some criminality, perceived

criminality. For many politicians the allegations don't fall into a

vacuum, but they reenforce fears in some communities. It feeds

perceptions, particularly among young people that the attitude the

police have towards ethnic minorities in this country. The

police only work through consent, it is so important they have the

trust of all the communities that make up this great city in order to

do their job properly. Anything that damages the trust is dangerous

for all Londoners for the ability of the police to do a good job for

you. It has been damaged today?It is difficult to think of how the

response that the Lawrence family received from the police could have

been any further from the response that they were entitled to expect

when their son was brutally murdered on the streets of this

city. Tonight the Lawrence family re-examined the events of 20 years

a tomorrow more allegations in the Guardian. But Scotland Yard also

went under cover in political groups.

Earlier today I spoke to Stephen's father, Neville, who is in Jamaica.

What do you make of Peter Francis's revelations? It is a devastating

blow to my confidence, thinking that we have been through all of

this before. We are had he hands of all the upheaval that has

concerneded our lives for the past 20 years. Does it surprise you that

the police were apparently looking for dirt on your family? I knew in

the early days they were doing it. I didn't know the extent of what

they were doing. Your former wife, Doreen, said she

remembers thinking something strange was happening, because

Special Branch wanted the names of all the people that came to pay

their respects. What happened? had a blue book that we recorded

the names of the people in the house every day. They wanted to see

this book. We couldn't understand why they wanted to see the names of

people who had come from as far as Birmingham to support us in our

hour of need. We wouldn't give it to them. You didn't give them the

book? No, we didn't. Because we couldn't see what connection the

people that were in the house who came to support us had with the

murder of hour son. So we refused to give them the book. Were you

aware they were trying to collect and collate the information in

another way? The fact that they were saying that we were

investigating, we were interrupting the investigation was another

things that made us suspicious. We couldn't see how an ordinary family,

miles away from the investigation was interfering in the

investigation. Can you tell me, you think that the police were saying

that you were interfering with the investigation? Yeah, they kept

saying that the family of interfering with the investigation.

And we couldn't see how they were doing that. Because we were doing

everything possible to try to help with the investigation. Did you

actually have trust in the police at that time? Although we didn't

have any trust in the police, we thought that the fact that we had

so many public people and focus on them, even if we weren't really

satisfied with what they were doing, we thought by the attention that

the family had focused on them and from all the organisations that

were involved, that they would do the right thing. Are you surs

priced that the police held this back from the William Macpherson

inquiry? I'm surprised, but I'm also really, what you say, I was

getting to the stage where I was starting to feel as if they had

done something wrong, they had apologised, so we can move on from

there. And now 20 years later, to hear something like this. Does it

make you angry? It has made me really, really angry. I'm starting

to think what do I do now. Do I still try and have a kind of a

relationship with these people are just cut ties with them completely?

What do you want to happen now, Neville? I want a public inquiry, I

want a full public inquiry into all the stuff that was happening during

the time of my son's death, right back up until now. I want

everything to be revealed so we don't have to have another year

from now I don't want to hear anything else that comes out, any

secrets. Do you think that you might take legal action? Well I'm

talking to my lawyers now, because I feel this is a intrusion into my

private life. Do you now recall conversations

where you thought perhaps at the time it was innocent with the

police, but you now realise they were fishing? Well from the first

investigation, and all the fiasco that was happening, and all the

things that were said, all the papers had gone missing, I started

to doubt these people investigating the crime. What option do I have, I

can't investigate the crime myself, the family couldn't do that, we had

to rely on whosoever they sent to do it. Is there anything you want

to say that I didn't ask you? I'm now four-and-a-half, nearly

5,000 miles away from all my family, my daughter, my son, my grand kids,

and for me to be dealing with something like this by myself is

not very easy. Normally when there is a problem I'm in London and I'm

surrounded by my solicitor, my friend and everybody who knows

about the case. In Jamaica I have got nothing like that to help me

with it. I have to be dealing with this by myself.

Thank you very much indeed. right then.

With me now is a member of the anti-racist group apparently

infiltrated by undercover police. A former undercover policeman, Peter

Bleksley, and Imran Khan, the policor representing Stephen

Lawrence's mother, Doreen. Good evening all of you. Imran Khan, you

heard Neville Lawrence saying there that he thought because there was

so much interest in the case that the police would do the right thing.

Now we have the allegations by Peter Francis that he came under

pressure to dish the dirt, are you surprised? I should be surprised

but I'm not sur pryed but because of the way the Met Police have been

treating the family from day one. I was there within days of the murder

happening, we saw police officers, and family liaison officers coming

into the house and asking questions about who was there rather than

going on to the streets. Asking for the blue book? Asking who was

coming in and what they were coming for. It looked from the family's

perspective that they were under the microscope when some how the

killer was within the midst. Doreen said the killer of white and those

who supported her were black, why look inside the house. You can see

the impact on Neville, and I know you still act for Doreen, does she

want an independent inquiry? does, the inquiry announced by the

Prime Minister is not sufficient. We know from the undercover police

officers he wanted the evidence to come out and the police stopped

that. How can we trust the police and Mark Ellison doing things

behind closed doors. At the moment she's pausing because she has asked

me to write a letter to the commissioner with 13 key questions

to be asked. If those questions are satisfactory, and if there is an

apology, perhaps we don't need that inquiry. I'm sure you don't have

the 13 questions off pat, but can you give us an idea? Who gave the

intrusion, who gave the orders for questions asked during the inquiry,

and what was done with it. The officer said nothing was found.

What was the motive? Exactly.Peter Francis who appeared in the

Dispatches programme tonight, he was known to you? That's right.So

he infiltrated your group? Yeah. Explain what happened? We were very

active, in fact we set up a campaign in 19887 in the Bexley and

Greenwich area, very close to where Stephen was murdered because the

BNP had set up their head quarter, we had done a the lot of work

campaigning against racism and the BNP, warning the politicians at the

time they were a danger in our community. We did a lot of work. We

were organising very large protests, when Stephen was murdered we

organised a big demonstration in the community. And Peter Francis

came in soon after the murder? is when he came in. What did he do

within the group? He have driving people around. He was dishing out

leaflets. Somebody said he was very good at putting placards together,

he put a lot of them together. One of the things that makes some

members of our group now think well actually if somebody was going to

be spying on us it was probably him was that he always wanted to egg

people on to do things that our group weren't interested in. We

were a large democratic peaceful. He was largely thinking there were

militants and troublemakers around at that time? I think probably so.

On the fringes of your group? think there is big questions that

need to be asked about a policeman coming into an organisation and

trying to egg people on to take part in criminal activity which we

opposed. He would deny he did that. Peter Bleksley, on the broader

point about, as it were, egging people on, we know from some of the

other inquiries that undercover police officers were acting in a

more high-profile roles? And acting as agent provoke ters, and inciting

people to do things they shouldn't do. On this question of dishing the

dirt on the Lawrence family. Is it possible the special demonstration

squad, of which Peter Francis was a member, was going rogue over the

Lawrence family in some way, badge of honour, or was it being signed

off? I was working undercover at this time in 1993, into serious and

organised crime. Did you know anything about the Lawrence

investigation by undercover policing? I knew nothing about that

or the existence of the special demonstration squad. Our unit was

separate. Is it conceivable that the unit trying to find stuff out

about the Lawrence family was rogue or likely to be signed off? I think

it is completely inconceivable that these officers were acting off

their own bat. Lord Condon said he had no knowledge, he neither signed

off it off or had had knew anything about it. Not necessarily signed

off to the officer of the Met? we were operating in serious orgd

crime, we would need the authority of a Deputy Assistant Commissioner

for every organisation. The reports seeking the permissions to act

undercover would work up through the chain of command. Many senior

officers would be aware of what we were trying to do. The thing is,

when you hear about that, it is an impingement on democracy?

Completely, I don't buy this that Lord Condon didn't know. I know he

says he didn't. But if he didn't how is it that officers were acting

with complete impunity. The boss take the hit? Absolutely, Sir fir

Macpherson, very much from the army -- William Macpherson, very much

from the army background, he said you don't blame the foot soldiers

but those who gave the orders. If it goes all the way to Deputy

Assistant Commissioner there must be some memos that passed through

his office. He has some questions to answer. He was in charge when

the inquiry took place. Was he at fault? The Guardian's front page

tomorrow, another exclusive about Scotland Yard deploying undercover

officers in political groups that sought to uncover corruption in the

Metropolitan Police and campaign for justice for people dying in

custody. This is why we need a thorough

going inquiry. It is not good enough what we have at the moment,

which is the police investigating themselves, or an inquiry which has

been held in closed court. Secret court. We need protestors,

environmental campaigners, trade unionists who have also been spyed

on and blacklisted and all sorts of things. We need a thorough on going

inquiry. I think this is not just a rogue unit or rogue individual. I

think this is policy. There has been a campaign over recent years

in this country to criminalise protestors. That's what the

kettleing has been all about. That is why we need a real thorough

inquiry. Is iten an apault on democracy? It is --Is it an

assault on knockcy? Yes, and the judge has said so with the case of

Mark Kennedy, that Intelligence Unit that was a successor to the

SDS. A judge commented that they were operating against decent

people wanting to express their lawful right to protest. That is

not what undercover policing is about.

When they protest in Brazil it is commended. But when we protest here

we are criminals and we have this sort of surveillance, it is an

attack on our democratic rights. Indeed Brazil's President, Dilma

Rousseff, is having her first meeting about now with mbs of the

protest movement who started the demonstration -- members of the

protest movement that started the demonstrations that engulfed the

country. In the beginning it was bus fares in Sao Paulo, that

exploded in riots in city after city, with political loader

struggling to work out what exactly was going on. We are in Rio to find

out what those who took to the streets in their hundreds of

Anger in a place renowned for relaxation. The Government doesn't

respect our rights. On Rio's Copacabana Beach, they are

denouncing the way their country is run. All over BR still the

education is really, really -- Brazil, the education is really,

really bad, the schools, the hospitals. We are tired of hearing

that our country is only carnival, football and that's not true.

These are educated, overwhelmingly middle-class Brazilians. Their fury

long pent-up has astonished their rulers.

Vito Fernades is typical of those who have taken to the streets all

over Brazil. He's a new low- qualified pharmacist, working in a

Government laboratory. He has -- newly qualified pharmacist, working

in a Government laboratory. He has had opportunities but others

haven't? We want better, healthy better education, and we want a

country free of corruption. This is really an important event.

How important is this event? This is huge, they have never done

anything, and now we are trying to change and make a better place to

live. He is marching against a left-wing

Government that boasts it has pulled tens of millions out of

poverty, made them more like the people in this crowd. So has the

state, to some extent, become a victim of its own success.

Salvo Brazil. Rapid development has turned a once

poor nation into the world's seventh-biggest economy. Its

inequalities are now more evident than ever. For most of the last ten

years Brazil has been on the up and up. Unemployment is at a record low,

the number of university students has doubled, but as the economy has

grown so have expectations. And the boom has thrown the sorry state of

the country's public serves into ever sharper relief.

Hosting the football World Cup next year in Rio's rebuilt Maracana

Stadium, and others around the country was intended as a crowning

moment for the new Brazil. But for young people the competition and

the �9 billion price tag has merely added to the feel-bad factor.

we won everybody was really happen and celebrating it all around. It

was like a wave. What went wrong, why are people no longer happy?

ends up costing more and more to build these World Cup stadium. We

saw that a lot of money that they didn't say would be involved

started to be involved. And a lot of money that wasn't invested in

education and health. So people start saying come on there is

something wrong in it. We need to do something.

President Dilma Rousseff had record high approval rates months ago.

This morning she promised to fight corruption and spend more on public

transport and he hadcation. For the protestors it was all too vague.

Vito Fernades is taking me to his house in a lower middle-class

suburb, where most people in recent years have had more to spend.

His mother Clara, who teaches physical education, cooks mainly at

weekends. On other days the family has a home help to do it. They have

got a new TV, a new microwave, a new car. But they are not happy.

Economic growth has slowed and inflation is up, and what use is

money in your pocket if services are still third rate. TRANSLATION:

Taxes are rising, we pay one tax after the other. People are happier

because they can buy more, but they are losing in other areas,

education is terrible. A lot of people can now afford to have

insurance, but the quality of the private system is as bad as the

public system. The health system is in chaos. It is an illusion we are

better off. If you think back to how, let as

say, your family was ten years ago, 20 years ago, hasn't it got more

things now than it used to have? I'm not fighting for my family, I'm

fighting for the whole population. We see a lot of people don't have

access to basic education. There is no quality in the education

provided. It is not that I don't have education but a lot of people

don't have. We want everybody to have access to this. You are not

fighting for yourselves but other people? Yeah, for the country.It

is hard to believe all this started over a 6p increase in bus fares

that has now been recinded any way. Now we are protesting about far

bigger issues, including a new law that would limit corruption

investigations. There is no good in reminding these people that

Brazilians can use the ballot box to protest. No healthcare, no jobs,

no justice, what do you want? is a democracy, why not vote for

change? That is why we are here. I vote and I always lose. S this is

the street where the Governor of Rio lives, the crowd are demanding

to be let through, but the police won't let them. The horizontal

nature of the protests, following others in Turkey, and elsewhere, is

a source of strength and weakness. This man, an actor, admits he

helped organise the protest through social media. But unsis he has no

political ambitions. Insists he has no political ambitions. Without a

leader or ideas won't this movement stop? People are saying that, but

this has happened for four weeks without a leadership. It is getting

bigger and bigger and bigger. They say they don't know what they want,

but we know what we don't want. is not clear what you want, you

want too many things at once? Brazil is under an ocean of

corruption and robbery and bad politics.

Another bigger march is planned in Rio tonight. For now the

authorities seem to be waiting and hoping the wave of anger will

eventually subside? It is difficult for the Government to respond to a

movement without leaders and with so many different demands. But it

may also be difficult for the movement itself to maintain

momentum. But whatever it achieves it is a

reminder that ref lugs usually spring from rising expectations and

a warning that economic growth and conventional democracy don't

guarantee contentment. The intelligence whistleblower,

Edward Snowdon, seems to have given America and the the world's press

the slip. While many thought he was in America, Liverpool Care Pathway

was left warning that if Russia and chine ignore the rule not to allow

him to travel there would be issues. While some say he's holed up at

Sheremetyevo Airport, nobody can be entirely sure. Where is he? Moscow

is the US official version of this. His supporters in Wikileaks say

he's in a place of safety. We know what he did, he got on a plane in

Hong Kong yesterday and flew to Moscow. That seems clear he was

tipped off in Hong Kong by people that it was time to go. From there

he was booked on a flight to Havana, which numerous journalists felt

they were enterprising and got themselves on to the same flight

this morning. But lo and behold when they went to seat 17 to see

him and the Wikileaks lawyer who trapped with him, there was --

travelled with him, there was nobody sitting in the seats.

Havana flight may have been a ruse or he may have made other

arrangements, some say Venezuela. The most likely destination would

be Ecuador, which says it has received an asylum application from

him and is considering it. It seems Ecuador provided him with the

travel document on which he left Hong Kong, because his US passport

had been cancelled. The Americans are aggregating, but what can they

actually do -- agitating, but what can they actually do to get Himba

back -- back -- him back? They are using that language, Liverpool Care

Pathway decribing him as a man who betrayed his country, -- John Kerry

decribing him as a man who betrayed his country. They say they are

putting diplomatic pressure on all those involved. In this context

must mean Russia, Ecuador, to arrest and deport him as soon as

possible. They have been indulging in recriminations against the

people in Hong Kong, who they say, ignored an arrest warrant, and the

fact that his passport had been cancelled to allow him to travel.

This today from the White House. We are just not buying that this

was a technical decision by a Hong Kong immigration official. This was

a tkhib rate choice by the Government to release -- deliberate

choice by the Government to release a fugutive, despite an arrest

warrant, that Haslem a neglect -- has a negative impact on the US-

China relationship. Is he safe? is conceivable a country like

Russia may decide it is in their interest to hold him or send him to

the States. Joining me live from Washington is

ambassador wools wools wools, former head of the C -- James

Woolsey, and former head of the CIA. This is pretty embarrassing for

America, isn't it? You have lost him? Yes, I think so, it started

being embarrassing some time ago. This administration has had a habit

of drawing a line in the sand and forgetting about it. Or saying that

something is unacceptable and that accepting it, or telling Putin

indirectly that they willable able to offer more concessions after --

will be able to offer more concessions once President Obama

was elected over an open microphone. They have put themselves in a

situation that the Russian find it rather easy to push this

administration around. And the Equadorians are learning from the

Russians. You say this as a former adviser of

President Clinton. If you were advising President Obama now, what

would you say to do, there is no point in rattling a sabre if you

are not going to do anything about it? Well, I think you have to start

being serious about what you say. And this administration has not

given the impression that when it draws and conclusion and says this

far and no further that it really means it. It has given the

impression that it is sort of kind of means it sometimes. That is not

effective. You can't work that way. Yeah, but you are speaking quite

plainly, so speak more plainly, tell me what you think America can

possibly do. What can they do, can they expel the Chinese and Russian

ambassador, what can they do? are a number of things that we have

going on with the Russians, for example, the Russians have worked

very hard to keep us from deploying ballistic missiles as a defence in

Europe to help protect Europe and the like. We always give these

Russian efforts to shut down our ability to improve our defences and

the rest a very serious "oh yes we have to work together" speil. That

is the wrong kind of approach. were going to suggest that one way

of doing this is saying if you do not hold on to Edward Snowdon and

hand him over. Assuming he's not in South America, we will make sure we

can put patriot missiles in Europe? I don't think that, those are

defensive systems. I don't think that kind of sort of tantrum works.

You have to seriously and fundamentally change the way you

interact with states like Russia and China. It will take some time.

It has been going in the wrong direction for at least five years.

Do you accept that if Edward Snowdon gets to South America the

game is up. You will not get him back? It is unlikely that we would

get him back soon. But Government as change and South America and

some of the Governments are left- wing and didn't used to be, some

have migrated one direction and back again. Things can change. But

I think persistence and firmness with those Governments. Ecuador

depends on us, the United States, for about half of the export market.

We could start cutting back on that rather easily and quickly.

course there are countries who believe who have been on the end of

the surveillance who believe what Edward Snowdon d was a -- did was a

block to democracy? There are not those who have been on -- a blow to

democracy? There are those who have not been dealt a blow by this. If

they are sheltering terrorist then they have to. There is nothing new

about that. What is new and is sort of strangely new is that although

the United States has had a programme for well over 30 years,

sanctioned by the Supreme Court, that let our Government keep track

on what is on the outside of first class mail envelope, but not the up

side. This is essentially what has been going on now, essentially

doing the same thing with respect to telephone message, not getting

into the conversation itself but rather into what number was dialed

and what number it was dialed from. It turns out that can be very

helpful. We have stopped something approaching 50 terrorist attack,

according to the FBI by utilising some of the loose technologies with

called big data. By stopping that, by interfering with that, these

people like Snowdon are putting a serious risk on a lot of people's

lives. Some may disagree. Thank you for joining you. It is 75 years

since the British Government sanctioned a mission to bring

Jewish children into the UK in the wake of the devastation of Crystal

Night, in Germany and Austria. In what one former child refugee said

was an exceptional act of rescue. 10,000 children were put on

transport by their parents desperate to get them to safety.

Acts of commemoration are taking place this week. As survivors grow

old, how should their stories be remembered by younger generations.

Newsnight met four of them. We arrived here disorientated,

depressed. I wrote in a book that we entered the train in our home

town as children and left the train as adults. Because from here on we

were responsible for our own lives for the rest of our lives.

I slept through the actual night and got up in the morning to go to

school and as I walked on to the street there were glass all over

the street, there were crowds on the street, and I realised that

something very sensational had happened. And I began to slowly

realise that the Jewish shops it be vandalised. There were Nazis

standing around in uniform. Big smears all over the wall saying

"die Jews" and so forth. That was Crystal Night, it was from then on

in that the children's transport started.

The most emotional thing I can remember was when we had to go to

the railway station. It was at night as well. Because I don't

think they wanted the population to know what they were doing. What was

happening. Of course all these happening. Of course all these

parents and children it was very hard. I mean I remember my father

telling me that I would like it in England because I would be able to

ride the horses and things like that. Oh dear, the reality wasn't

like that at all. We always talk about the past when

we are together, don't we. I still remember you ringing -- wringing

that chicken's neck. Really, how old was I then. You were little.I

think I remember being with Gerty, because she was older and I think I

stuck, I was just with her. But I do remember the train stopping and

people coming in and giving us a sweet drink. And then we carried on

I cried, you know, and I let it go, one of the helpers on the journey

said don't do that, you will set the younger ones off. When I

arrived at Liverpool Street, one of my uncles came to meet us, because

he was already in England. And he then took us to spend the night in

London. And the following day we went to the first foster home in

Hinkley in Leicestershire. Eve was given a bath, she wouldn't let them

take her until I was in the bathroom with her. But after that I

think they put her to bed and I don't remember a night when I

didn't cry. I was home sick from age 12 till goodness knows when. It

was a feeling you carried about with you.

I think the whole atmosphere, I mean, it saved my life, of course,

but it wasn't the house for children. Really in a way I was a

maid, you know. I always remember talking to these little wood things

that crawled along when I was polishing the floor. I sort of made

friend with them! I remember at one point a card coming from my parents,

I remember rushing down the stairs and I remember then being quite

emotional. I will show you one of the books

that I was talking about that my father actually left me. It is The

Pentagon Building, five books of Moses, you can see it is rather

worn. I was in a hospital in Turner's Green, I'm not sure how I

learned the language, and I must have, adapting to living with 50

youngsters up to the age of 15, 16. I'm told I was the youngest at that

age. Learning to play games with them. Learning to be a youngster in

a new country and trying to adapt myself.

I remember being taken by the school to a play in the West End.

It was some pantomime I think, it was in the middle of the play that

I was sitting there with all the other students when I suddenly said

to myself, I'm an orphan. I suddenly realised it then. I

understood that the chances of my parents still being alive after

what I had heard were minimal. It was just I suddenly came to the

realise of the fact, to face it boy, you are an orphan.

Any other suggestion? A better place. I go out to schools to teach

about Kindertransport, for a number of reasons. One is that the story

of the past is important to the future. To go out I need to teach

and to talk about it and not just to let the children read in the

book about it, but rather to meet somebody who came through, at least

on the kinder transport. -- Kindertransport. So that they too

have a much better understanding. We begin the commemorations and

celebrations of the 75th anniversary of the Kindertransport.

The important message is that, about the Kindertransport of what

it means and what it was and relating it to the background of

the issue of the Holocaust. It will be remembered, especially by the

Jewish nation. But anybody else I don't know? A lot of people think

we are milking it. That it's too much, it should be forgotten. But

the thing is it is not forgotten because it is happening to

communities as well, other societies. We experienced too much

too soon. That is probably the epitaph of our youth. Rembering the

Kindertransport. That is it for us from tonight, I will be back

tomorrow. We leave you with gridlock and fireworks in Gaza,