Browse content similar to 02/07/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
The clock is ticking in Cairo, the protests are unabated and the | :00:14. | :00:20. | |
military's deadline approaches. As the unelected Egyptian military | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
glitters in the affection of protestors, while the | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
democratically chosen presidency seems paralysed what is the will of | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
the people? What does the rest of the Middle East make of it all? | :00:35. | :00:45. | |
:00:45. | :00:52. | ||
Well now, let's start in Egypt, the Obama administration is telling | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
President Morsi to respect the wishes of the people, but there is | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
no sign of bridges being built and the Egyptian army deadline will | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
have expired before this time tomorrow night. If there is no sign | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
of settlement between the two sides the state news agency claim tonight | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
that the army plans to suspend the constitution, dissolve the | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
legislature and impose a caretaker Government. The Muslim Brotherhood | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
figures are talking of a coup. Let's go first tonight to Jeremy | :01:26. | :01:33. | |
Bowen who is in Cairo. Now Jeremy, there is talk tonight of talks | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
between President Morsi and the head of the army, have you heard | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
anything about that? Yeah, there have been reports that these talks | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
are going on throughout the day. It is clear there have been | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
negotiations happening. There have been some clues coming out as to | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
President Morsi's attitude. He put out some announcements on Twitter | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
in the last hour or so in which he called upon the military to | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
withdrew its ultimatum and he said that they would not be dictated to | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
by internal or external forces. And in the last few minutes there has | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
been a flash that says he's preparing to address the nation. My | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
guess is that in that speech there will be more defiance, there were | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
very big demonstrations, not just in Cairo, but other parts of the | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
country as well, by the Muslim Brotherhood today. A real show of | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
strength. I have to say things on the streets are deteriorating. | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
There are quite a few reports of clashes going on in Cairo and other | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
places. At a rally I was at earlier outside Cairo University, since I | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
left there are reports that four or five people have been killed there | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
in clashes which are still going on between the two sides. This is a | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
really dangerous and urgent situation now. I know this is a | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
very difficult question to answer, but does it feel as if the | :02:53. | :03:01. | |
Government is on the edge of collapse? Well, if you look at | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
what's happening around, politically, around President Morsi, | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
he has lost through resignations at least six ministers and there are | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
rumours and reports that more of those could be going before the | :03:12. | :03:19. | |
army deadline comes in tomorrow. He's even lost two or three of his | :03:19. | :03:26. | |
most important spokesmen. So, you know, that's a sign. But, on the | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
streets, if you think about the Muslim Brotherhood in Government | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
quite frankly at times they have been not just inexperienced but | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
pretty incompetent, but they have been going since 1928 working | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
towards the power they have got now, they will not give it up lightly. | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
On the streets they are tenacious and well organised as a group. They | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
are able to put people out on the streets. So while he seems to be | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
losing support in his own cabinet, actually on the streets he has a | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
lot of true believers behind him. That is the Muslim Brotherhood's | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
real strength and that is something that he's trying to plaijer at the | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
moment and show to the army as well, they can't dismiss them lightly. | :04:07. | :04:14. | |
sounds a very dangerous situation? It is feeling like a collision | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
course at the moment. Feelings are running high. Pressure has been | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
building up in call kinds of directions in this country since | :04:21. | :04:27. | |
the fall of President Mubarak. There has been economic collapse, | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
political chaos, repeated clashes, repeated mass demonstrations. And | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
now down below me there are tens of thousands of people demonstrating | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
yet again and the streets around the square are full as well, that | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
they want Morsi out. They are determined, they say, everyone I | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
have spoken to says it, to stay there until he goes, and there are | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
early elections. On the other hand there is Morsi saying, do not | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
trifle with us, we're the Muslim Brotherhood, we don't want violence, | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
but we don't want ultimatums either. There is a massive gulf between the | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
two sides, here is the army saying they will step in. I don't see any | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
circumstances in which the army are going to withdraw their ultimatum. | :05:10. | :05:19. | |
So it will be a tense 24-hours and a dangerous 24-hours too I think. | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
Now Egypt may have a collapsing state and faltering economy, but | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
there are no shortage of other countries with a keen interest in | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
its future. Our diplomatic editor, reports. | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
The military ultimatum has stoked Cairo's cauldron of protest rather | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
than quietening it. After one year in power President Mohamed Morsi's | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
Government is tottering. His opponents sense they may soon be | :05:48. | :05:57. | |
able to deliver the knock-out blow. The first step towards finding a | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
solution should be the resignation of Mohamed Morsi as President, | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
bowing to overwhelming desire of the majority of Egyptians. It is | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
the National Salvation Front's belief that Egypt should go through | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
a transitional period during which the constitution will be reviewed, | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
presidential elections held and the democratisation process put on the | :06:24. | :06:34. | |
:06:34. | :06:34. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 264 seconds | :06:34. | :10:58. | |
These forces are on a collision course. | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
Just in the last few minutes President Morsi has said he won't | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
step down, he is the democratically elected President. A few moments | :11:06. | :11:14. | |
ago I spoke to Chris Hadfield of the Muslim Brotherhood in -- I | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
spoke to a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Is President Morsi | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
prepared to make any concessions to the protestors? I think the | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
President is prepared to do all necessary to pass this crisis. The | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
question is not what type of concessions to make, the question | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
is how to make these concessions. There are one or two ways to do | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
that, either representatives of the opposition appear on the | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
presidential dialogue table, or at least they invite the President to | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
a dialogue table. He announced that last week. Or we go through a | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
parliamentary elections and then, according to the numbers that have | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
showed up on the streets, think they have a good chance of winning | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
the elections, changing the constitution, even impeaching the | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
President if they so wish. It has to be through democratic means and | :11:57. | :12:06. | |
not under a military coup. Do you think that there can be dialogue | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
before the military deadline expires tomorrow? I don't think the | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
military deadline means that much more us. I think at the end of the | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
day Egyptians have taken a decision to go through this transition | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
through democratic means, democracy as a system is the pinnacle of how | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
human beings solve their differences in a political | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
governance platform. There is no better system or alternative to | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
that system. Unless we accept that we can plunge Egypt into another | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
cycle of military dictatorship that we will not come out of for another | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
60 years. Egyptians broke that in the January 25th revolution, we are | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
under no circumstances willing to go through that again. Supposing | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
the military decide that you have not met their deadline and | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
therefore to save the country they must do something. That would be up | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
to them. They can either stick with their role, to protect the | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
legitimacy of the state and the sovereign leader of the state and | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
work within his leadership grounds, he's the Commander-in-Chief of the | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
Armed Forces, if they do not the people of Egypt have stood once | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
before inside the Jan 25th revolution to anyone attempting to | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
withdraw their will and their right to choose their leaders from then | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
as before. Has the President spoken to the | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
head of the army? Yes I believe they have spoken today and | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
yesterday. They have actually published some photos of them | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
meeting together, but I'm not aware of the context of the discussions. | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
Are you confident that President Morsi will still be in the | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
Presidential Palace tomorrow night? I think the idea of being in the | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
Presidential Palace to become a President is quite absurd. The | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
legitimacy does not come from the building but from the grass roots | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
support and from the ballot box. This President has voted in by 51% | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
of the population. You don't stop a presidency mid-term because the | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
President's favouritism dropped. I don't think any democracies in | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
Europe can risk changing the Governments or Presidents for bad | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
performance of their Government. Half the European countries have | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
already had economic problems on their hands. What have the | :14:20. | :14:27. | |
Americans asked President Morsi to do? I'm not aware except of the | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
published at the same time both of the ambassador here and President | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
Obama. Both statements indicate they are not taking part in | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
political strive, but backing the - - strive, but backing the | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
democratic process. That is a smart choice, this is how we commit | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
ourselves to creating a sustainable democracy in Egypt. It is in its | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
first year, in its infancy, it needs to be protected through that | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
process. It is quite clear the state is ungovernable now? Sorry? | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
It is suffering from many issues, this is 60 years of military | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
dictatorship, 30 years of corruption. When we pud our | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
presidential programme in place, when we -- put our presidential | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
programme in place and promoted President Morsi as our candidate, | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
his first phase of programme of reform was four-to-five years, the | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
firefighting stage, where we have to deal with all the her particular | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
of the NDP and corrupt Mubarak regime, we are still going through | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
that. Thank you very much for sparing the | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
time to talk to us in rather difficult circumstances thank you. | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
Thank you. So what will the Obama | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
administration do now? In Washington is the former Assistant | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
Secretary of State PJ Crowley, do you think President Obama knows | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
what he wants out of this crisis? know what he wants, which is to see | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
democracy develop and advance, but ultimately the key decisions we | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
made inside Egypt and not from outside Egypt. He wants President | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
Morsi to stay? I think he want whatever is going to happen to move | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
Egypt forward and deep in democracy not to take it off the democratic | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
rails, if you will. Obviously there are some profound questions here. | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
This situation, as you hint, is unsustainable. Now how does it | :16:15. | :16:22. | |
change, how does it end. Will Morsi reach beyond the Muslim Brotherhood | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
and have a meaningful dialogue with the opposition? Indications are not | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
necessarily. The opposition, over the last year or two, has been | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
relatively ineffective, has not necessarily been able to translate | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
the energy that we see in the dramatic pictures in Egypt, into | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
real political influence. A is whether the military ultimatum is | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
firm or flexible. The real dilemma is that whatever these actors may | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
or may not do in the coming hours or days, is any of that going to be | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
acceptable to the people in the streets? But he's a democratically | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
elected President? He is. And that's a dilemma because he's right | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
now the only democratic pillar that exists, whether he's governing | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
effectively or ineffectively is a separate discussion. One of the | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
dilemmas is that you don't have a seated legitimate parliament, the | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
constitutional court has prevented both houses from being seeded and | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
the votes respected. There is an interim Upper House in place. But | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
the constitutional court has not necessarily allowed the development | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
of multiple institutions of political life. So that's a dilemma, | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
all of the things that we are talking about take time and | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
obviously the people in the streets are demanding just one thing, Morsi | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
has to go. You are plugged in enough to have a | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
guess, a good guess at the answer to this question, which is should | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
the Egyptian army decide to intervene tomorrow that the current | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
situation is so unstable they have to intervene, they have perhaps to | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
put President Morsi, if not to depose him, to put him to one side | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
temporarily, would the United States support that? It is a real | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
difficult question. I think the United States has two levers, one | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
is depending on what happens, and what the military role is, the | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
United States has the option of declaring it a military coup, which | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
would mean the suspension of billions of colours in military | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
assistance. Depending on how it unfolds, how quickly there is a | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
transitional Government put in place and firm pledges to early | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
elections. The United States might forestall such a firm judgment to | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
give Egypt time to chart a path back to democracy. The other lever | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
the United States has with the international community, as your | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
reporting suggested, Egypt is in desperate need of international | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
assistance. Obviously the longer this goes on, the more difficult it | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
is going to be for the World Bank, the IMF, other countries, to put | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
money into Egypt and so that would suggest to the political actors | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
here, you don't have a lot of options, you have to find a way to | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
solve this, meet the needs of the people. Otherwise your economy is | :19:17. | :19:24. | |
going to collapse. PJCrowley thank you for sparing the time to talk to | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
Talk about undignified, as the most famous human rights hero lies in | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
hospital, his family war over where he will be buried. The vast pack of | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
what some of his closest call "jackels" has fallen on a family | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
dispute of Gothic dimensions, it involves burial, disinternment, | :19:45. | :19:53. | |
reburial, tribal custom, reputation and money. Now the police. In to | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
court in haste today, lawyers for both sides in a feud that could | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
hardly be a greater contrast to what President Obama called this | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
weekend when he was in South Africa "the current outpouring of love for | :20:05. | :20:14. | |
Nelson Mandela". The urgency for resolving an embarrassing family | :20:14. | :20:22. | |
dispute over Mandela's graves, Nelson Mandela's own illness. The | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
man who became arguably the most famous and revered statesman of our | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
age was brought up here in the sweeping landscape of the Eastern | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
Cape. This is Kunu, the village that welcomed him home until he had | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
to be flown up to hospital in Pretoria last year. He has not been | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
back. But has indicated when he dies he wants to be buried here. | :20:44. | :20:52. | |
Other Madela have this -- Madelas have this as their resting place. | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
But in 2011 Nelson Mandela's grandson and oldest heir, Mandla is | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
thought to have taken the remains of two of Nelson Mandela's sons and | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
one daughter from Kuno to the nearby village of Mvezo without the | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
family's consent. Mandla Mandela holds the traditional chiefdom of | :21:13. | :21:20. | |
Mvezo, it was Nelson Mandela's birth place, and Mandla is creating | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
a centre. But the acrimony within the family over his actions that | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
has led to this civil ways in the court. The respondant failing to | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
return the remains. First 16 family members won an order that the | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
remains should be returned to Kunu, now Mandla Mandela is fighting back. | :21:38. | :21:46. | |
But the deadline for him to exhume the remains and rebury them in Kunu | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
is tomorrow afternoon. The court case here over the remains of the | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
three late children of Nelson Mandela is symptomatic of deeper, | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
long-running divisions in the former President's family. In the | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
eyes of the ANC in and traditional region here, the feud something is | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
all the more distasteful and critical as he's ill. There is a | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
global spotlight on South Africa and the Madela. Some elders say | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
while the family is at war the spirit of Nelson Mandela cannot be | :22:17. | :22:26. | |
at rest. It was totally wrong for Mandla Mandela to remove bones from | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
Kunu to Mvezo. According to our culture and tradition, you cannot | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
just take a decision. And tonight a further problem for Mandla Mandela. | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
The police are investigating a complaint against him by a family | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
member of the illegal tampering of graves. | :22:44. | :22:50. | |
The case that has opened is tamperering with a grave against | :22:50. | :22:58. | |
Mandla. After the document was opened we have started with | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
investigation, but the docket will be send to the senior public | :23:01. | :23:09. | |
prosecutor for a decision. Across South Africa there are have been | :23:09. | :23:15. | |
prayers for Nelson Mandela. The nation seems, at the moment, to be | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
moving to the haunting harmonies of its evocative music. | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
Many will no doubt be praying too for an end to the rifts in South | :23:25. | :23:33. | |
Africa's most famous family. In the studio is David James Smith, | :23:33. | :23:40. | |
who wrote the book Young Madela. He has interviewed many of Mr Madela's | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
relatives, we have Belinda Moses, a South African reporter in the | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
middle of the media circus there. Is this stress and imminent | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
bereavement bringing out the worst in the family or what? I think it | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
is a disaster waiting to happen. It would be niave to pretend for | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
anyone that they didn't know it was coming. Just to take the example of | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
the graves being removed. Mandla removed them with quite a lot of | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
publicity two years ago in May 2011. The family has had plenty of time | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
to address the problem. I think the difficulty is that the family | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
problems are so deep-rooted that no-one really knows what to, how to | :24:21. | :24:29. | |
deal with them or what to do about them. Grassa Michelle has made some | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
attempt to resolve difficulties within the families: I'm aware of | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
meetings that have ended in disarray and she hasn't been | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
success of. She's the third wife trying to patch up relations | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
between the first and second wife's offspring. You have a first family, | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
Madela's wife, Evelyn, and a second family which was winny and her two | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
daughters. Bell lind --Winnie and her two daughters. How charged an | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
issue is that out there? Of course for South Africans this is a pretty | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
ugly side show from what is a very sensitive to imin South Africa, | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
knowing that Nelson Mandela has been -- time in South African | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
knowing that Nelson Mandela has been gravely ill over the last few | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
days, South Africans are anxious to hear about his health condition, | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
and the family feud on the sidelines is something that is | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
pretty regretable as you mentioned and something that shouldn't be | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
happening at this time. This is a story that is two years old. The | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
timing of course is very questionable. And I think different | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
families members -- family members have come out saying different | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
things. All in all South Africans are pretty upset that this is | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
happening when they are so worried about Nelson Mandela and whether he | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
will be discharged from hospital any time soon. How much do you | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
think the presence of this enormous international media has aggravated | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
things? I can tell you that I have covered the story from day one, and | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
we saw a massive increase of the types of media that came camped out | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
outside the hospital. It has caused a bit of tension, not only among | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
South Africans that have been in the vicinity of the hospital, but | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
just South Africans in general who have essentially been praying for | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
Nelson Mandela for the past 20-odd days. We have seen actual scrambles | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
between the media and the police. We have seen members of the public | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
that have taken the media to task on just how close they seem to be | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
getting to the entrance of the hospital, and we have generally | :26:29. | :26:36. | |
seen a lot of people write into local pub daigss -- publications | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
and call into local radio stations and say the family does indeed need | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
the privacy and to visit their grandfather in peace, and have the | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
space they need so desperately at this time. Even though everybody | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
does see Nelson Mandela as a family member, they too want to have the | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
space to make sure that you know they are not overcompensating for | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
any type of closeness from the media and the media isn't barging | :27:03. | :27:10. | |
in where they aren't supposed to be. What this does shed a light upon, | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
undignified though the family row may be, that Nelson Mandela as well | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
as a an international icon is a fallible human being? He was a | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
father and a husband. Several times? Yes. And not necessarily | :27:25. | :27:33. | |
always very good at those roles. While the world is considering what | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
Nelson Mandela's legacy is, part of that legacy is the difficulties | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
within his family. Many of his family have felt in the past some | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
resentment towards him because of the difficulties. Mandla, who is | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
alleged to have perpetrated this removal of the bodies, what's the | :27:49. | :27:58. | |
point of that? The point is that he feels this is part of Madela's | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
heritage, this place Mvezo. So Mandla's own father was the head | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
man in that village 100 years ago. I was deposed and part of the | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
family myth was he was sent backing by the colonial magistrates, so | :28:13. | :28:19. | |
Madela oversaw Mandla's installation as the chief of the | :28:19. | :28:25. | |
village. So he has the indorsment of Nelson Mandela himself. | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
Enforcement of Nelson Mandela himself. How much of a feeling do | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
you get that this is part of the Madela's industry? There is always | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
issues of money over Madela. We have seen people over the past few | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
years people fighting over paintings of Madela, over what | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
should be his legacy in terms of the heritage sites and museums that | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
will exist long after he has left this world. Of course with the | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
family it has been pretty clear that there are serious division | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
amongst them. Especially as to who get to carry on this legacy of | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
Nelson Mandela. We know that the Nelson Mandela Foundation has done | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
a lot of work to help children and all around the country and push | :29:04. | :29:14. | |
:29:14. | :29:16. | ||
this issue of education that Nelson Mandela fought for so many years. | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
But there is the issue of money and who gets the rights to the name, | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
"Nelson Mandela". Wales is to become the first part of the UK to | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
assume that if you die the state will have the right to take out | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
your heart or liver or other vital organs to use them to help someone | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
else. It is a change in the law that's been longed for by the huge | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
number of people across the kingdom, waiting for a transplant that could | :29:42. | :29:49. | |
transform their lives and which hitherto has depended upon possible | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
donors saying because they have no use to them somebody else might | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
benefit. The Welsh Assembly voted an hour ago for a law in Wales that | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
means you have to opt-out of being a donor, instead of opting-in. | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
It was the transplantation of the human heart, unpoetic pump though | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
it may be, which captured the imagination of the world. And | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
compelled us all to think about the rights and wrongs of the new | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
techniques. In the late 1960s the world was reeling from from the | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
first-ever heart transplant in 1967. To this day we are still grappling | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
with the profound issues of life and death raised by organ donation. | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
That does bring tonight's business to a close, thank you very much. | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
The Welsh vote late tonight makes it the only country in the UK with | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
a system that presumes consent, unless otherwise stated. Many still | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
object. Among them religious groups. They call it deemed consent, it is | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
no kind of consent at all it seems to me. It is rather the taking of | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
organs rather than the gifting of organs. Matthew Fenton is a | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
paediatric cardiologist, he welcomes the Welsh move. We need to | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
come down one way or another in the UK about how we can solve the | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
problem of organ donation. We are not as good as other countries. | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
We're somewhere near the bottom third of donations per million of | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
the population, we need to improve that. It is down to the public to | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
buy into being a country that is in favour of organ donation or not. | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
There has been a steady rise in the number of registered donors in the | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
UK, which now stands at almost 20 million. With just over 3,000 | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
transplants from donors who have died in 2012 to 2013. These include | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
transplants of the lungs, heart and kidneys, all of which have | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
increased in the past five years. However, the number of donations is | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
still below what's needed, in March this year there were well over | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
7,000 people on the transplant waiting list, a number that stayed | :31:51. | :31:58. | |
about the same in those five years. With donor numbers going up, why | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
are we still in such desperate need of more? One of the key findings | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
from the confidential audit of deaths in intensive care units in | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
1989/90 was that 30% of families refused consent for organ donations, | :32:15. | :32:22. | |
so that a major barrier was relatives' refusal. Since that time, | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
in the ensuing two decades the refusal rate has actually increased | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
so that now we face a refusal rate of about 40%. | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
Ministers in Northern Ireland plan to consult on public attitudes to | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
organ donation and in Scotland ministers have said presumed | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
consent is not completely off the agenda. | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
In England there has been a 50% increase in the number of people | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
donating organs after death in the past five years. Which means that | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
NHS blood and transplant service have hit their targets. Though that | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
is not enough, of course, and we understand that next week they will | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
issue their strategy for the next five years to improve on that. | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
Though there is little expectation of a radical change in direction, | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
such as presumed consent. A recent NHS survey gained a | :33:14. | :33:24. | |
:33:24. | :33:41. | ||
snapshot of how people view organ Some medics argue that the best way | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
to enkoirage more donors is to make harder for all -- encourage more | :33:45. | :33:52. | |
donors is to make it harder for us to opt out. Sitting and registering | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
to be a donor is not something people do. It is a question of | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
turning to your relatives or everybody having a time where they | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
say we will talk about this and we are going to make sure you know | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
what my wishes are if something happen. Nobody expects the worse to | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
happen to them. The developing techniques of organ transplantation | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
raise urgent issues which society must face. We have to make up our | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
minds whether to encourage more transplants or not. Now, just as 50 | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
years ago, it seems we are reluctant to talk about the end of | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
life, and its many dilemmas. With us is Dr Tony Calland chairman of | :34:29. | :34:37. | |
the British Medical Association's Medical Ethics Committee, and the | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
person who previously worked on the task force for organ donation and | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
faith leaders. Is this change in Wales likely to improve the number | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
of donors? I'm afraid the evidence is very mixed. We should not | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
dismiss the huge achievement in the past five years. 50% increase in | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
donors is remarkable. That has been achieved by improving donor | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
recognition in hospitals and delivering training. When you look | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
at other countries who have introduced opting out, they have | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
not seen a reduction in refusal rates, we have to be careful. | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
is a lot of double negatives there, let me work this out. If other | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
countries that have said you are presumed to be willing to give have | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
seen people objecting to that, is that what you are saying? Some | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
countries have. Where as in some countries the refusal rate has | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
reduced, so the evidence is mixed. What is really clear is public | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
education does have an effect, and I think it is welcome that Wales | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
are going to invest in a public education scheme when they | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
introduce this legislation. Do you have an site from an ethical point | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
of view about the notion that the state some how owns your body? | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
think the first thing to say is the state will not own your body. I | :36:01. | :36:07. | |
don't have a problem with the ethics of it, because this is about | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
autonomy, this is about carrying out the wishes of an individual | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
after they have died. And there is a safeguard that they can either go | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
on the organ donor register, they can opt in or they can opt-out. | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
There is a safeguard of having their relatives, who will be asked, | :36:25. | :36:33. | |
if they know of any recent change in the view of the person who is | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
deceased. If they know there is a reason why they should have not | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
consented. But if the presumption is that you have opted in, in other | :36:43. | :36:50. | |
words that the state may take organs from your dead bodyk can -- | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
body. Can the family say they don't want that? The legislation in Wales | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
is actually permissive, it is not directive. So in the face...Can | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
family stop it happening? In the face of a huge family objection, | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
even though now. Who judges how huge?. It is a clinical judgment, | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
it is a judgment done by the highly experience transplant team at the | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
time. But that occurs in the current system in England at the | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
moment. Obviously in the face of a deeply traumatised and very upset | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
family who are seriously against it, nobody is going to go and take | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
organs against their wishes under those circumstances. It was | :37:35. | :37:42. | |
striking in that piece from Susan Watts is relatives objects even | :37:42. | :37:51. | |
from those who opted to give their organ, the number of people | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
refusing has risen, why is that? This is why we need the investment | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
in public education. There hasn't been the investment previously and | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
we have seen a constant refusal rate for the last five years of 40%. | :38:02. | :38:08. | |
And more worryingly in non-white families that refusal rate is 70% | :38:08. | :38:15. | |
and it is welcome that Wales are going to invest �8 million. Why do | :38:15. | :38:21. | |
they feel more strongly about it? Because of pure lack of engagment | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
with these communities on donation. Why are the organs of use to anyone | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
else? All the research shows that people have common fears not ethnic | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
or Asianly specific. They are around fear of death and what will | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
happen to the body, mistrust of medical professions. We have to | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
recognise that some communities don't enjoy equal access and equal | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
kality of care. That does -- quality of care. That does manifest | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
itself in organ dough iing that. It is important to equally engage with | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
all the communities, via faith and community groups. What is the less | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
I don't know we learn from the Welsh experience? The Welsh | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
experience will hopefully give us information about whether this way | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
of doing things increases the number of organs available. We have | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
seen because of the increased infrastructure and staff, we have | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
seen in an increase in donations both in England and Wales. But I | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
think a move to the Welsh system now will sort of settle the | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
argument, if you like, once and for all. It is a fairly controllable | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
smallish population and a better sort of way of doing it than | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
suddenly the whole UK with 60-odd million people involved. It is | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
better with three million to see what difference it makes and | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
hopefully it are. Thank you. | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
British parents are notorious the world over for loving their | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
children so much that if they can afford to do so they send them to | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
live somewhere else as soon as possible. The boarding school | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
system is however celebrated for achieving results, although at eye- | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
watering cost, maybe �30,000 per year per child. There is a way of | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
getting a boarding school place for a fraction of the cost. Not a young | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
offenders institution! But one of the 38 state boarding schools. They | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
have become rather fashionable and the Government wants to see more of | :40:16. | :40:26. | |
:40:26. | :40:32. | ||
them. So can they be expanded? The afternoons at Winmar college are | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
action-packed. It is the largest state boarding school in the | :40:34. | :40:42. | |
country. At the school barbecue children | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
told us they are having too much fun to get home sick. Do you not | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
miss your family? Not really. Sometimes, I did at the start of | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
the year, but I don't any more. What about your sister? I missed | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
her when I first joined now I have realised how annoying she is. | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
old is she? Three.How is she annoying? She irritates me and | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
ruins my room and my guitar. There is nothing new about this | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
Government's enthusiasm for state boarding schools, the last five | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
education secretaries promised to expand them, yet there are still | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
only 38 of them. If they really want to open them up to | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
disadvantaged pupils they are going to need to work out who is going to | :41:26. | :41:34. | |
pick up the �9,000 boarding fee. There are 5,000 state borders in | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
total. 130 places are paid for by local Government, while charities | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
pay for 100 pupils. So, fewer than 5% of state borders come from | :41:44. | :41:53. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds. -- Boarders come from disadvantaged | :41:53. | :42:00. | |
backgrounds. None of the this school's boarders are paid for a | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
local authority, and four are supported by a charity. There isn't | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
a straight forward way through the door for children who can't afford | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
�9,500. That is not for want of our trying. The issue is, is there a | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
Government bold enough and brave enough to say not only that we are | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
going to rule the ends to this but the means also. We really mean it | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
this time, this Secretary of State unlike the previous four I have | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
known in my career will have the bottle to do it. You sound a bit | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
fed up? I may give that impression. This building is fantastic. Do you | :42:32. | :42:42. | |
:42:42. | :42:43. | ||
like living here? Yeah.Lauren calls the boarding house at | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
Harrefield academy home. What do you like most of being here? I love | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
being part of a family and the togetherness, and there is so many | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
different people here. Lauren found studying at home | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
difficult. She was brought up by a single mother who works nights as a | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
nurse. Lauren wanted to board, so the school found a benefactor to | :43:04. | :43:12. | |
pay her fees. It did lift a lot of pressure. I became more active and | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
confident in my work. If I struggled with something I didn't | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
have to keep it in, because I didn't want to force it upon my mum | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
when she came back from work because she was tired. So I would | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
let someone else know, I would tell the house parent, you would go into | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
school and talk to my teacher. you think being here has given you | :43:33. | :43:40. | |
your childhood back? Yeah. I think so. If Lauren needs support she can | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
turn to one of the school's called house parents. I just wanted to | :43:44. | :43:51. | |
check up on you today. The academy prides itself on its pastoral care. | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
It would like to give more places to vulnerable children, including | :43:56. | :44:03. | |
those in care. We have got only one young person funded by a local | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
authority, and we think that's interesting or, we are disappointed | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
by that. Because we think it could be so easy to prevent a young | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
person's life going in the wrong direction, just by allowing them to | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
board with us. I think someone at some time needs to sit back and do | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
a cost analysis to see how much money is going into the system | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
either through social services or to provide emergency care and if we | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
could find the capacity to turn that money into places from the | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
start, then you know it seems like a no-brainer to me really. | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
According to the education charity Buttle UK, boarding helps | :44:41. | :44:51. | |
:44:51. | :45:04. | ||
They are doing better pupils on free school meals.? -- in Royal | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
Berkshire they are preparing found for a new state boarding school.00 | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
families have put their children down for a place, even the unborn | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
ones. The reason for the stampede, the school is being supported by | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
nearby Eton. That is helping to write the | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
curriculum and providing access to its playing field. So, the Eton | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
ethos without the Princely price tag. But why should only families | :45:32. | :45:41. | |
in Berkshire benefit? Why not open this school up in a deprived area. | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
Why not tap into an area that never thought Eton could be within its | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
reach? There are any dangers in focusing any school on any | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
demographic or type of background. The great joy of boarding, the | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
strength, is when you have a mixture of different types of | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
people from different backgrounds who perceive the world in different | :45:59. | :46:07. | |
ways. I would love to see a network of schools, many Holyports that | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
would allow students and families to access boarding in their region. | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
It would be good for them and the country too I believe. The founders | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
have a vision for their new school. They want 20% of pupils to come | :46:21. | :46:28. | |
from low income backgrounds. But, as the more established state | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
boarding schools have discovered, achieving the mixed intake is hard. | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
Is the frustration that we could have new schools opening up in the | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
state boarding sector that really turn out to be cut-price Etons or | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
we willingen tos? That is the worry -- or Wellingtons? That is the | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
worry. People have to look at the profile of these young people. It | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
is hard to get the right groups in, they have stood by a moral purpose | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
and are determined to do it. But I think there needs to be a | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
determined effort by all involved to make sure that those new | :47:02. | :47:12. | |
:47:12. | :47:14. | ||
academies with boarding are used for the right student. | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
All the schools we have spoken to admit that boarding doesn't suit | :47:18. | :47:28. | |
:47:28. | :47:32. | ||
every child, but when it works the effect can be transformative. | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
That's all we have time for tonight. That's all we have time for tonight. | :47:37. | :47:47. | |
:47:47. | :47:48. | ||
Good night. Good evening, even though most of us will have seen | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
rain by first light, one or two gardens will be disappointingly dry. | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
That will be the last of the significant rain. Light rain or | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
drizzle across southern and western areas, it will be a day where | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
things turn dryer and brighter. With a bit more brightness breaking | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
through the cloud in Northern Ireland and central and eastern | :48:06. | :48:12. | |
Scotland in particular, after the cool, wet windy conditions, it will | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
feel warmer. Even the low 20s across part of north-east England. | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
A little more cloud to the west of the Pennines, here brighter sunny | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
spells. It might take a good part of the day through East Anglia and | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
the south-east to see those spells develop. It looks like even with | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
drizzle in the morning, Wimbledon should be try in the afternoon. | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
Cloud in the south west and Wales, a noticable breeze but dry through | :48:38. | :48:41. |