08/07/2013 Newsnight

supports the army, but the square below me belongs to tens of

thousands of Muslim Brotherhood supporters.

We will try to find out with the help of both sides. And then this.

She means the world to me, I would do anything for her. The called

bedroom tax may look a pret -- a pretty straight forward hit at

benefits issues, but the reality may be more complex. If I turn

around and say to her you can't come over any more because we have

to move to a one-bedroom place, she would be devastated and maybe push

her away. Ed Miliband has let it be known that he has a speech in his

back pocket the unions may not like much, we will take a peek. Last

week it underwent a military coup, tonight the most important country

in the Arab world may be on the brink of civil war. It may even be

that what happened in Cairo at dawn today was the start of that war.

Over 50 people were killed and over 400 wounded in an incident which

supporters of deposed President Morsi are blaming on the army,

which unseated him last week, and soldiers say was set off by

terrorists. Let as first go to Cairo.

I'm on the roof of a mosque, and below me is the camp of pro-Morsi

supporters here in Cairo, thousands of gathering more through the

course of the day. Roaring their defiance as you can hear. They have

said they won't leave here until their President is reinstated or

until they are forcibly dispersed. The road leading out of this square

behind me is the road that leads to the presidential Guards Club, where

more than 50 people were killed last night. Down that road today in

successive waves Brotherhood supporters have tried to push. They

have been pushed back by the army. Today they are using only teargas.

If there has been less violence today, the rhetoric is really going

up. Today for example the Brotherhood's main political party

called specifically for an uprising and on the other side it is clear

that the authorities are trying to pin the blame for last night's

bloodshed squarely on the Brotherhood itself.S they closed

down the offices of the Brotherhood's faert, Freedom of

Justice, because they say guns were found inside it. It will be harder

and harder to make any conclusion with Islamists, even the our

Islamist party has withdrawn from talks from Government. Very hard to

see how an interim Government of the kind that has left can be

formed. Mark Urban here. Last Weir it was all Tahrir Square, Tim is in

another square? The mosque he was talking about behind him, is part

of the epicentre of it. All confined to a small area of eastern

Cairo. There is the mosque where Tim was, street that runs north of

there is the one he was referring to, up and down which there has

been so much trouble. Up at the other end of it is the Republican

Guard Officers' Club. When rumours went out late last week that ex-

President Morsi had been detained in there, the protestors walked up

the street and this is where the incidents where people were killed

and Jeremy Bowen and others were hit with buck shot. The protestors

were forced back down this street and before dawn the incident

unfolded. The supporters said people were shot while at prayer,

an emosive allegation, the army said they were attacked by

terrorists. Independent people said they had seen plain clothes people,

security men or hired thugs firing at the crowd. Pretty soon dozens of

people had been hit, whoever started it was clear that these

people were being carried back down the street, back to the Rabaa

mosque, where they were being treated in a mix shift triage. How

many people were hit all together? By lunchtime the Muslim Brotherhood

was saying that 51 people had been killed in this incident. The

Ambulance Service in Cairo were saying over 40, but the clashes

went on the street throughout the afternoon. In fact, if we look at

another place, almost a third of the way down the street, between

the Officers' Club and the mosque, where it is circled, further

incidents took place. This footage shots a member of the security

shows a member of the security forces with a gun in his hand, you

can see it jump in his hand. But down on the street you can see

casualties being carried away. Both sides were agreed that more than 50

were dead and 500 wounded. What are the political implications of all

of this? It is all seen enormous, as the news of this was broking

this morning, people were talking about civil war. The all near party

had gone along -- the All Noor party had gone along with it, they

are Salafists, they withdrew today. The Brotherhood were calling for an

uprising. This evening we saw the army briefing bringing outlines

about the return to democracy. Trying to ride the tide of popular

feeling and get the situation back under control. The version they

briefed out, this is not confirmed, is that within two weeks a panel

will sit down to try to rewrite the constitution, we have been here

before. In four months the new constitution will be voted upon by

a referendum of the people. Two weeks after that parliamentary

election and another two weeks presidential elections. That is the

version they are giving out to keep a lid on this. In Tahrir Square is

Egypt's deputy Culture Minister when Morsi came to power last

August. We hope to be joined by a spokesman for the Muslim

Brotherhood. But let me speak to you first in

Tahrir Square. Does this begin to look like civil war to you? It is

definitely not civil war. The civilians and liberals are seeing

it as terrorism, with an uprising with the lowest head count of 17

million going on to the streets. And the highest head count is 33

million. If something like that happens in the UK it suggests that

David Cameron will step down immediately. It does make you

wonder, when you have shots being exchanged between different

political factions, it does make you wonder what is the difference

between that and civil war? It will never be a civil war, Egyptians, by

nature, even the Muslim Brotherhood are staying at home and not on the

streets and are peaceful. Egypt is not Syria, it is not Libya, we're

very peaceful by nature. So it is never going to happen. And the

people who are trying to portray what happened starting on the 1st

of June until the 8th of July as a coup is totally wrong. The military

was totally unbiased during the year of the Muslim Brotherhood rule,

and it was not taking sides. Until the demonstrations happened and

they have seen the massive population on the streets. If they

did not take sides with the Egyptians we would have turned

against the army. So it is definitely not a coup. I'm really

surprised by the west and the western media, not the BBC, but I'm

really surprised with having so much correspondents here and we are

still hearing this kind of military coup. The military is the

prospector of the nation and the peace and the calm of the society

in Egypt which is not only sporpbt to Egypt but it is important to the

-- important to Egypt but to the world. What do you call it begin a

democratically-elected President is put out of power by the army. What

do you call it? Well the Nazis were elected and the Duche in Italy, and

they were ougsed and the Germans and Italians had a change -- ousted

and the Germans and Italians had a change of heart. What more could

you require from people by going into the streets in their millions

asking for the President to step down. And he did not give a single

concession during the whole year. Even Mubarak started giving

concessions. He changed the Government, he changed the

constitution, he banned his son from the National Democratic Party

and he said himself he would not bid again for the presidency.

Talking about Morsi...Let's Look ahead, if we may. The army are

making it known tonight that they have a plan, they say, for within

four months some sort of referendum on a constitution, parliamentary

elections, presidential elections after that. How seriously do you

think we should take that? should take it very seriously

because, first of all, it is not the military plan, it is the consen

Qus between the military and the -- consensus between the military and

political powers in Egypt. They have done it before. Why not

referring back to the 25th January. It was the same situation. We went

down in the streets and shouted "we don't want you Mubarak", so the

army stepped over and said, Mr President, please go. They started

declaring a Road Map, and they were extremely committed. They said they

would turn over the authority to a civilian entity and body by the

30th of June and they committed to every word, why should we doubt it?

Thank you very much indeed. Unfortunately we are una ibl to

cross to the Muslim Brotherhood -- unable to cross toe the Muslim

Brotherhood spokesman in Cairo. Let's look at the crisis, it began

when the elections produced a Muslim Brotherhood Government,

which was brought into a crisis of legitimacy, which was aggravated by

an economic crisi. Whoever takes the country forward has to give

people not only of peace but also of prosperity and a sense of

beginning to feel better off. As Egypt turns so too does the

wheel on which Mohammed's livelihood depends. With children

to feed, his hands must continue to work on the clay. Others around the

country are razed in protest. The become is only a third of what it

was before Egypt's dictatorship was overthrown two years ago.

TRANSLATION: After the revolution sales went down so much. We don't

sell now, our pots are just sitting on the shelves. We used to deliver

to shops in Cairo every month, we did exhibitions for embassies, we

exported to Italy, Holland, Morocco. Since the revolution it is no

longer safe here, so tourists are afraid to come. Mohammed's dusty

village, Tunis, two-and-a-half hours from Cairo was gent trified a

little as Egypt's middle-class widened in the last few years of

President Mubarak. You don't see much of that now or the foreigners

who came here. The revolution is to blame. This feels a long way from

Tahrir Square, however people here travel regularly to the capital for

the protests. Egypt, at all levels of society is an intensely

political country. People have to earn and living and here that is

not easy. The economy slowed almost to a halt. With unemployment

possibly as high as 20%, rising inflation and dangerously low

levels of foreign reserves. Back in Cairo I have come to meet a

man who can help put things right. This is the billionare tycoon who

connected Egyptians by starting the country's first mobile phone

company. I have no remind people why we are here. Telecoms is the

most important thing. He and his family are Egypt's largest private

employers. This is a picture of post-January what people felt.

welcomed the 2011 revolution, but left the country after the Muslim

Brotherhood's Mohamed Morsi was elected President last year. Now

he's back to repair the damage, he says, the Brotherhood did. Very bad

management and they frightened all the investors out of the country,

especially the Egyptians. I can tell you I'm not proud of that, but

for two-and-a-half years I personally haven't invested a penny

here. I didn't even want to change my old TV in my house! We have this

channel and another one. That is live. You can see that is Tahrir

Square now. But he doesn't just own TVs he owns TV stations. This one

helped encourage the mass protests on Tahrir Square, that led to the

toppling of Morsi and are still rolling on. He now wants stability

so that the IMF and other lenders will step in to save the country.

Now we need to have an injection that will give us one year to

restructure our economy. So we are now foreign reserves depleted, we

would need $15-$20 billion that will take us for another 18 month

and give us time to reorganise ourselves. We need to have an end

to these demonstrations and the split in the society. What Egypt

needs, even beyond democracy, is water.

The water of course comes from the Nile. Pumped to the village of

Tunis by an intricate system of canals. It is subsidised and the

state needs cash it hasn't got to give the fuel to get it there.

Farmers like this say they don't benefit from the subsidy any way.

The sesame field is parched because often he can't afford to pump the

water. TRANSLATION: Every petrol station has a certain amount of

diesel, sometimes they do not get the right amount, even when they do

the owner of the station sells it on the black market at three-times

the subsidised price. That is happening entirely because the

President can't control the country and no-one is doing their job

properly. Half of all Egyptians survive below or just above the

official poverty line. A loan worth nearly $5 billion was offered by

the IMF, but only if subsidies on bread and cooking gas and diesel

were reduced. The Muslim Brotherhood Government didn't dare

agree, fearing the people's wrath. We have just been out, for example,

into the provinces, we have been out there and found a farmer who

complains he can no longer get diesel at subsidised prices. He

wants subsidised fuel? Yeah, because all the people steal it and

sell it on the black market. That is exactly it. There is no need to

subsidise it. He's not happy with it at the higher price, he wants it

at the lower price and he can't survive unless it is at the lower

price? He's also not allowed to sell his production on the free

market price. Everything is done outside of that. Egypt inherited

this socialist system during Nasr, when Mubarak came and they tried to

change it but still very many residuals from the socialist system

remained. These why your medals? But Egypt's economy won't work

until the politics do. A tycoon like this is a political player too.

He has been involved in discussions on a new Government. There is no

place like home. Even as Egypt seems more divided than ever, he

wants Islamists included. They should reach out the hand for the

Islamists, for the Muslim Brotherhood, we should reach out

for them, we shouldn't go into a persecution or revenge state, we

have to accommodate them back and talk sense to them and cool them

down and take them back into social. Down on Tahrir Square, as the anti-

-Morsi crowds gathered again this evening, there weren't many calls

for reconciliation with the Muslim Brotherhood. We don't need them.

The Muslim Brotherhood we don't need them from the beginning of

history. They are bloody people. But they represent many Egyptians?

They mislead them. They are liars. TRANSLATION: They have no political

future here in Egypt. No place politically. Their party should not

have weapons. We don't want Egypt to be like Syria. Last night's

violence appears only to have hardened views on both sides, and

the chances now of a peaceful way out of Egypt's crisis seem even

slimmer. Back in the village the hopes of progress to improve

everyday life will have to be put on hold for even longer.

How many bedrooms do you have at home? How many do you really need?

None of your business you might respond. If you are living on

benefits it is, or rather it is the business of officialdom, since

April as part of the the clampdown on the welfare bill, around 660,000

people living in social housing have been told they may only claim

benefit for what is judged to be an appropriate number of bedrooms. The

Government calls this clamping down on a spare bedroom subsidy. The

called bedroom tax is reckoned to be pretty popular in Daily Mail

land, because it seems to play to the idea that there are scroungers

all over the land living the life of Reilly at the tax-payers'

expense. Councils have been given �150 million to use at their

discretion, but it is hard to distinguish the deserving from the

called undeserving. See how hard news night has heard from -- we

have heard from some of the CAB cases in Coventry.

My brother Gordon originally moved in here with my mother in 2007. My

mum's health started to deteriorate around the same time. She had to

move out. That's why gord Dan has an extra -- Gordon has an extra

bedroom. Gordon is mentally and physically handicapped, he has

sight in only one eye. He suffers with epilepsy and his mobility is

not very good either. Did you not see Pat today?

don't wum in on a Wednesday, she's on her -- come in on a Wednesday,

she's on her course. Pretty much everything I do for Gordon, I do

all the cleaning, all his shopping. I cut his hair for him.

I take him out for meals and the odd pint, everything really. Have

you seen Dawn today? Yes.This is my brother's home, he has built a

life here over the past six years. He's near to his day centre, he's

near to me, my mother, he has a God doctor on the doorstep. It would be

a -- good doctor on the doorstep. It would be a real upheaval for him

to move. The extra room is �16 a week. It isn't a situation you

would want to go on too long, �16 a week over the course of a year is a

lot of money. With Gordon I'm trying to help him

get an extra payment because he has a shortfall in rent. It is called

the discretionary housing payment. We are supposed to have care in the

community and it is nice to see Gordon being able to live

independently. Because he's in a place where he's settled. He

couldn't, any upheaval in his life, I think would be devastating for

him. It would cause health issues and make it worse. He gets

disability benefit, because of the welfare reform that is all changing.

His income could be reducing. If they don't accept the discretionary

housing payment he is still going to have to find money to keep a

roof over his head. After that what other options are there? I don't

know. There ain't really is there? There ain't, I don't think there is

any options? Apart from reapplying for it again, or you know does a

Since the 1st April we have probably had 200 people come in

concerned about underoccupancy or bedroom tax as it is called. The at

the mand is way exceeding the -- demand is way exceeding the

staffing we have got. The vast majority of people that have come

into us have been people largely with mental health issues or other

daiblts. Schizophrenia, depression and things like that. They are also

battling to try to ensure that they can maintain their disability

benefits. A lot are in high levels of debt. A reduction of �25 is a

real problem. This is probably one of the more brutal of reforms made.

It doesn't give people many options, it actually threatening some of the

security that they do actually have. It threatens the home they live in

and the communities that they live within. We have seen clients come

in who have been living in their house and brought up their families

and their home and have lived there for 40 years and then all of a

sudden they are having to possibly consider moving house, maybe moving

to another part of the city or another city all together to try to

find a smaller property of which there are very few. I would like to

see someone about the bedroom tax. I'm seeing people who have already

accumulated rent arrears because of the shortfall, some people just

haven't, they can't pay it. So the rent arrears are building up and

building up. They will end up with the house being taken off them. So

I don't see how it can save money when people are just going to be

homeless. I wanted something nice for her, we went out and bought

cheap wallpaper and painted the rest. We went and bought cheap

carpet and put it down and went to auctions to get furniture in the

room for when she came here. spare bedroom is for Sandra who is

my stepdaughter. My partner Paul's daughter. Sandra's in care and so

obviously they are very strict, the room has to look OK for her, she

needs her own bed. My ex-partner, she used to be violent towards her

and I actually went to the social services myself to have something

done about it. That's the reason why she went into care in the end.

When it first happened we could only see each other through contact

and that and take her out places and then it started to be overnight

once a month. She means the world to me, I would do anything for her.

I think if I just turned around and say you can't come over any more

because we have to move to a one- bedroom place and can't have a two-

bedroomed place she would be deaf vase tated. We are really close, we

have a -- devastated. We are really close and we have a strong bond,

and it might push her away thinking I don't want her. Obviously we were

in our Catch 22, we panicked, because it is a lot of money out of

our benefits, it is a lot of money. If we struggle so be it, Sandra has

to come first. I can't see any way out of this other than when I start

work. And then it won't affect us. I'm hoping to get a job myself, I'm

looking at factory work, driving work, cleaning work. I send off

every week for at least six, seven jobs. I didn't need a push, before

this bedroom tax came in, I'm half way through my foundation degree. I

have been working to get myself into a good place to get back into

work. I want to get out of the system, it is horrible. It is

making it tougher. We have been making cut backs and now we have to

make more, we have to be careful what we eat. Spaghetti Bolognese,

you need the money to eat that, we shop at the cheapest shop we can

find and get the cheapest brands we can find. They are the only

cutbacks we can physically make is the food. About a quarter of people

coming to see us about bedroom tax are seeing us because they need

their extra room, they have a child they care for or joint custody with,

and that child might live with them three days a week, because they are

not the parent that claims child benefit they are subject to the

underoccupancy rules. But the thing with this policy is it looks like

people have a choice. It has been badged as people have a choice but

they really don't have a choice at all. They either have to move out

of their home if they can, but they probably can't, so they have to

deal with the reduction in incomes. Ultimately the bottom line with

this is people have to survive and people have to eat. These reforms

have happened and they are here we now have to work with what we have

got. Our job as a CAB has been to try to become a bit more practical

in how we support people through these changes. So that they don't

have the problems further down the line and hopefully fewer people

then will need to join the queue at the CAB on a Monday morning because

they are at risk of losing their home. We are trying something very

different in that we have decided to build a mock-up flat in the

bureau to try to help people with some very practical skills around

how they manage their money. The idea is new tenants will come in

and we can help them learn a lot of things people take for granted, how

to read a metre, affordable furniture, setting up utility

accounts, understanding what APR is, and getting people off on the right

foot. This is our real-life, functioning training facility,

kitchen. If I can just take you into the living room area...Last

August I was in a council flat in Stowbridge, because of debts and

unemployment I walked out on my council flat. So I got a night

coach to Brighton and I had a with me just in case. So I found a place

behind the Palace in Brighton and I stayed in the tent for three weeks.

I had to rely on the food banks for meals. Sometimes I had to starve

most of the day because there was no food. You can furnish your new

home to a reasonable standard without breaking the bank. The last

nine month has been a nightmare really. Andrew was in a hostel

which catered specifically for people with alcohol and drug

addiction problems. Andrew himself isn't a substance misuser he found

that it wasn't the ideal place to be situated and located. He was

quite lonely and he didn't receive any support, essentially he was put

there and left to his own devices. We will be running cooking classes.

Financially I lived on �10 a fortnight after my bills and junk

food most of the time, or even living on biscuit as well.

aware you need specific support on budgeting and banking. I have been

out of work now for over ten years, I have done casual work. I have

retail skills, fundraising skills, I have done gardening, warehouse,

you want to work, I'm 51, I'm worried that in another two years I

will be still on benefits. I have no friends that I know apart from

church friends, family, I have a sister somewhere, I don't know

where she is, I know where she is in Birmingham, I lost contact with

her 20 years ago. I lost my father in 2000 and I didn't know until I

got back to Coventry that he died. We give the clients a start-up pack

which consists of a number of household goods that you would take

for granted and these items, although they are not of

significant monetary value, for our clients they are a huge help. He

has managed to secure a place from the local Housing Association and

you know it will give him that level of independent that personal

sort of space. Yesterday they gave me the keys to move in, it has been,

it last been great because it is the first time I have had a decent

night's sleep. Even though I'm sleeping on the floor at the moment.

I'm getting the help hopefully with grants and through the church as

well. But it is a new start for me. I was overjoyed when I saw it, it

is bigger than I thought it was, it is fantastic, just the peace and

quiet as well. It is amazing. It gives you your identity back. Being

homeless is very depressing, not knowing what will happen in the

next week. It has been a long process for me, really. It has

taken nine months to get here, but I'm here, I'm very grateful.

Harriet Baldwin is a Conservative MP and aide to one of the ministers

in the Department for Work and Pensions, responsible for the

introduction of the called bedroom tax. Are you embarrassed by any of

those cases we heard about, victims of the bedroom tax? This is, as you

know, we prefer to call it the "spare room subsidy", I think we

should highlight the fantastic work the CAB does across the country. In

those particular cases highlighted just now I do want to emphasise

where there is someone who has a daibltd, who needs a carer to spend

-- disability, who need a carer to spend the night or occasionally

give them care at night they will be allowed an extra bedroom. I want

to clarify that and put it on record. Noort of thoses there is

nothing to worry about? In the first case if I was advising I

would advise him to apply for a two bedroom allowance. What about the

court order where a parent should have contact with the father only

if the child is in a separate room and that is classified as falling

within the scope of what do you call the bedroom tax? A spare room

subsidy. That is nonsense, isn't it? The Point I would make is there

are 250,000 families not mentioned today living in overcrowded

accommodation. We have to make the best use of the social housing.

many households are living in places with surplus bedrooms?

a million surplus bedrooms in the country. And what we want to try to

do is for the two million families on the housing waiting list, the

250,000 families in overcrowded accommodation we want to make the

best use of that accommodation. want them to move to smaller

accommodation, so presumably you know how many one bedroom homes

were released on to the market last year do you? If you are in social

housing and your family expands and you have, for example, two

teenagers, one of boy and one a girl and they need an extra bedroom,

you are perfectly entitled to ask for that extra bedroom. We want to

make sure families can swap to make the best use of the housing stock.

What do you call it? The spare room surplus, and spare occupancy.

want people to move to smaller accommodation, do you know how many

single bedroom homes were released last year? You need to take into

account. Do you know that or not? We have families in one bedroom and

need to move to two bedroom. Do you know?, do you know? I don't have it.

There is 85,000. It will take a long time to get a million people

into those. There are families needing to move to a two bedroom

flat from a one bedroom flat. There is home direct swapping list, and

they can swap within the social housing list without losing

tendency rights. It is all going well is it? It is important we

point out for ordinary families that aren't within the benefits

system they have to make choices every day when their families split

up about what kind of housing they can afford in that situation.

the CAB is making a fuss about nothing? They are highlighting.

Really serious problems in the lives that people have had to do a

lot more difficult than you or I ever have had to do? Bear in mind

we will put in �380 million of discretionary housing payment. If

any of those people came to my advice surgery I would advise them

to apply for discretionary housing payment. There is an enormous

amount of money available. There is �150 million. In 2008 when the last

Government brought in the rulings for the private rented sector and

housing benefit. There was talk there wouldn't be enough housing

and the reforms went forward in good fashion. There are

disrecognitionry payments and it will take time but it needs to be

addressed. Thank you. It will doubtless be presented as another

clause IV moment, or extended essay, tomorrow the Labour leadership will

demonstrate it is getting on top of the party's relationship with the

trade unions. The Tories have been making hey for days play claiming

that Ed Miliband is a glove puppet manipulated by those who pay the

Labour Party's costs. Tonight he told MPs and peers that he would

reform the relationship, precisely what that will involve we will

learn tomorrow. Allegra Stratton might have a clue. What will

happen? He will announce he wants to move Labour to something called

"opting in with the union levy". Let me explain it in a second. If

he is successful in it, it could cost his party �9 million or �8

million, depending on the figures. We shouldn't dismiss it before the

speech. It is also something that if it comes to a natural conclusion

as being talked about this evening on phone calls I have had with some

Labour sources, it is also something that will see the link

between the unions and the Labour Party reavaiinged in the future in

a pro-- rearranged in the future in a profound way. How big a deal is

it? It is a big deal. When Christopher Kelly announced his

view for party funding, this was his idea. Ed Miliband has always

said he wouldn't do it. I should explain the idea. At the moment if

you are a member of the union you are automatically, they get some

information, but basically it is pretty much a done deal that your

money will go to the Labour Party. What they want to move towards is

you will get a bit more information, and if you want your money to go to

the Labour Party you opt-in. That is the system they want to move

towards. It could see them, that pot of money is around �8 million.

Thanks for that. Here to discuss Ed Miliband's speech is John Mann a

Labour MP and member of the Unite union. We are joined by Labour

party grandee Lord Prescott, are you impressed by it? It is a bold

move, if it gets the half a million more members it might do it could

be revolutionary. There is an if and a could in that? Of course

there is, you have to persuade people to join. It is bold. It

would be a change. A fairly radical change. But it is keeping the union

members and the unions in with the Labour Party rather than breaking.

John Prescott what do you think of this plan? I agree with what John

said, you can't say he's not making decisions. To be fair he's been

talking about this for two years. The new idea of the registered

supporters, they have already taken part in an election, 10% in the

Electoral College. Are we absolutely clear he has taken a

decision, or is he having an investigation to see whether these

ideas are feasible, it is different? As he said to the party

meeting and he will say tomorrow, le want to discuss these matters.

This is the moment -- he will want to discuss the matters. This is the

moment he wants to put the message out about the membership of

ordinary members. When I took part in the debate 20 years ago, one-

member, one-vote, that was highly controversial, followed by Clause I

v, but we got down to be bait and implemented changes and got on with

it. This is part of the change to do with party funding. Don't you

get the feeling this is him playing for time, there will be a big

inquiry and a bit of a proposal at the end of it, and who knows it

will be after the next election by then? I understand that he's also

going to be proposing the primaries in some situations. I had a primary

for the leadership and I had 10,000 people in my area, rather than the

200, 300 members of the Labour Party that most areas have voting.

You mean anyone will be able to come along and say whether they

want somebody to be a candidate or not? The Tories at the last

election pulled quite a coup by having a primary. We are not

talking about the Tories but your party? If we do the same thing by

involving vast numbers of people in our selections that's going to have

a positive impact. You have to be registered as a Labour Party

supporter as well as affiliated through the trade unions. It is

those that take part in the vote, not everybody. In the primaries

regarding London and only London they are looking how that would

work in the primary situation. It is radical movement, it is a man

showing, not just now, over the two years since his one-nation speech

he has been working out these flow things. It is not that radical if

you have to be a paid up party member or registered supporter, is

it? If you are going to lose possibly �8 million on the party

political funding that is a pretty bold move. What we have seen in

reactions from People Like Us and the spats that have gone on between

ourselves and some of the leaders of the unions, in those

circumstances we are going through the same controversy. It is easy to

avoid but as we found with one- member, one-vote, and Clause IV,

get on with the controversy, have the debate and settle down.

come out of it �8 million poorer? hope the Government would have to

re-think about its party funding, which was mentioned by Allegra. Let

us look then, because these are fundamental changes, no-one party

should have a lot more money. We have already said candidates will

be capped in the Labour Party. When I fought the deputy leadership it

cost me �10,000. Tony Blair was able to raise �100,000, that is

basically unfair, he will cap it. That is a radical point of view.

that why he won? It might be, maybe I wasn't good enough any way

Jeremy! That is minor detail. is important? It is, but having

fairness in elections is very important. If I can get 10,000

people to vote in a leadership primary in my constituents that

would be hugely positive. To bring in these active trade union members

into participation, this could have a huge been figures impact, not

just in the next few years, but in the longer term for the Labour

Party. And a radical change, John dominated Ed, and his people said

vote Dave, and he did. You can't fix mass participation. That is why

this is so potentially bold and radical. Absolutely.It is not just

fixing on the small side bits and pieces. A little change in response

to Falkirk, this is a much bolder move than I think people had ever

dreamed would happen. Bold, radical and courageous. Would he have done

it had it not been for the cuss that the Conservatives have been

able to make over the shenanigans in Falkirk? We have an inquiry

there, let's see the results of that. Why is he only getting around

it to it now? You do the questions, Jeremy, I will try the answers. At

the end of it he said at the party meeting tonight, he said the moment

has come because of all these difficulty. He has been arguing

them against the background, do you have them, do you not have them.

Now everybody agrees there is a major attack by the press and

indeed the Tory Party, and we need to put the package together,

something he has worked on for two years. This is a man with a bold,

radical position, not the way it has been positioned in the paper or

in the media. Do you think the unions should welcome this? Yes, I

do. Because the unions have been very poor at getting working-class

representatives in into parliament for a long time. We need to see a

much better array of backgrounds in parliament. This suits that process.

Thank you very much, it will be all over tomorrow morning's front

The person who electfied the nation yesterday by becoming the first

British man to win Wimbledon for 77 years was allowed into Downing

Street to bask in the glory of David Cameron, Ed Miliband and

others, he must have been so proud. The Pathe news reals have no record

of whether the last man to win, Fred Perry was high fanned by

Stanley Baldwin, but maybe the pipe was raised to him. Can Perry do it,

in three straight sets. Excitement at fever pitch. For 25 years no

eing lashman has won this xet -- Englishman has won this competition.

So Fred Perry is Wimbledon champion. The only Englishman to win in 50

years. There has never been another The warmest day for Scotland and

Northern Ireland on Monday. For Tuesday we start off with mist and

low cloud across central England, burning back to North Sea coastal

areas. Keeping thicker cloud across northern Scotland. For Northern

Ireland perhaps not as warm as on Monday, still the low 20s on

Tuesday afternoon. Much more overcast in the norp and Western

Isles with the odd spot of rain or drizzle.

Mist and low cloud could be clearing the coastline keeping

temperatures down. We are much more hopeful of the cloud burning away

to give more sunshine for north- east England and Lincolnshire. Many

southern counties continuing with the hot and spuny weather over the

last few -- sunny weather over the last few days. For Cardiff 25 with

the sunshine taking over come the afternoon across Wales. If we look