Browse content similar to 10/07/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's one of the most feared parties in Pakistan, blamed for | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
intimidation and political violence. How come it's being run here in | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
North London. Orders are given and threats are made to political | :00:22. | :00:32. | |
:00:32. | :00:43. | ||
enemies. Can the party spokesman explain it all away? Bad news for | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
ducks, there is a crackdown on MPs' expenses, don't worry too much, | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
officialdom has tonight decreed MPs deserve a big pay rise. The BBC's | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
glittering new headquarters have no sick pay, pity. The overwhelming | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
focus was to get numbers out of the door as quickly as possible to | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
save...You Know it is the license fee payers' money, it is not your | :01:08. | :01:16. | |
money, it is our money. Also tonight, what were trade unions | :01:16. | :01:26. | |
:01:26. | :01:36. | ||
Granma? Britain has a long history of offering refuge to victims of | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
persecution. Suppose instead it was offering sanctity to an | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
organisation which was using Britain as a base from which to | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
threaten and persecute others. That is the accusation against a leader | :01:44. | :01:53. | |
of an organisation called the MQM, a man called Altaf Hussain. The MQM | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
is one of the most feared political organisations in Pakistan. Mr | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
Hussain is accused of no fewer than 30 murders there, which he denies. | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
He now lives happily in North London from whence he controls the | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
brain and brawn of his organisation, which dominates Pakistan's biggest | :02:09. | :02:19. | |
:02:19. | :02:22. | ||
city, Karachi. Thursday September 16th 2010, CCTV | :02:22. | :02:30. | |
catches senior MQM member, Imran Farooq, at Edgware tube station. | :02:30. | :02:39. | |
He's walking towards the 204 bus stop, and his murderers. After that | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
the CCTV coverage stopped. But the police believe he walked for | :02:45. | :02:53. | |
another ten minutes and then was stabbed to death outside his home. | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
The police found a knife and a brick used to kill him, but there | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
was very little else to go on. The first major breakthrough came over | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
a year later. The Pakistan authorities arrested two men, I | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
believe in Karachi, during the year. And that was on the grounds of this | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
murder. We are liaising with the Pakistani authorities to see how to | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
pursue this investigation and it is very much a live investigation. | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
far the Pakistanis haven't handed anyone over but the police here | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
have launched a massive investigation into the murder of | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
Imran Farooq, and they just arrested someone a couple of weeks | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
ago at Heathrow, he has been bailed until September. They also raided | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
this house, and it belongs to Altaf Hussain, the leader of the MQM, | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
around here I wouldn't be surprised if many people didn't even know who | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
he was. Back in Pakistan he's one of the most famous politicians in | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
the country. He's developed the practice of addressing thousands of | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
his supporters in Karachi over the phone. They gather and listen to | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
his voice. And after the raid on his home he lashed out at the UK | :04:00. | :04:10. | |
:04:10. | :04:18. | ||
Father of the nation! Altaf Hussain has been a UK resident for over two | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
decades. He has a British passport. These are his party head quarters | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
in Edgware. It may be a long way from Pakistan, but from here he | :04:29. | :04:37. | |
exerts total control over his party. He denies any involvement in the | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
murder of Imran Farooq. And to make the point he very publicly mourned | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
his former colleague's death. In their raids the police found | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
hundreds of thousands of pounds of unaccounted for cash. That has led | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
to a money laundering investigation. And the Metropolitan Police are | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
also formally investigating Altaf Hussain for something else. Whether | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
he's using his London base to incite violence in Pakistan. | :05:09. | :05:19. | |
:05:19. | :05:39. | ||
By any standards Altaf Hussain uses The police are now assessing | :05:39. | :05:47. | |
whether those speeches and others like them breach the law. So what | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
does the British law say? We asked a London-based Urdu-speaking | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
barrister to look at some of the clips and to make an assessment. | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
Well there used to be potentially terrorism offences one would have | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
to have the threat of force, which seems to be on the clips, made for | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
a political cause, and the MQM is a political body, designed to | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
influence the Government, all three seem to be made out. When one looks | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
at the body of material Newsnight has gathered, it looks as though | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
there is a case to answer. Because it appears there is an intention | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
that the listener, or the person against whom a threat is being made | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
should take it seriously. Highlights here, the most senior | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
MQM leader in Pakistan. He's listening to Altaf Hussain speaking | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
about tearing open abdomens, and yet he insists his leader doesn't | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
use violent language. categorically would deny and refute | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
that Mr Hussain would have ever said what you are saying to anybody. | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
This is just simply impossible. as take the Supreme Court, they | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
interpreted something he said as a threat and they demanded an apology, | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
that is the Supreme Court of Pakistan. If something that may | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
have come as a result of a kind of emotional outburst or gesture that | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
may have come, so then we always all open to criticism also. We are | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
open to correction also, that is what Mr Altaf Hussain has always | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
retracted from such statements which may have caused and may have | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
hurt the sentiments of the people of Pakistan or the institutions of | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
Pakistan. We trietd to contact former MQM -- tried to contact | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
former MQM members for this programme, only one agreed to talk. | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
Naim Ahmed said he used to work for the party in Karachi and its | :07:44. | :07:52. | |
members there have killed people. cannot count but hundreds of people. | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
Hundreds? Yes, hundreds of people killed. The MQM insists it is a | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
peaceful party and doesn't use violence? No, they are not a | :08:02. | :08:10. | |
peaceful party. They are militants as a group. And they are like a | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
bunch of Mafia. Did you ever commit any acts of violence? No, it wasn't | :08:16. | :08:25. | |
my job. It was because of the violence I left the party, I left | :08:25. | :08:32. | |
the party for violence, yes. I left the party because of violence. | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
Because of militancy. So what did you think of those young men in | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
your district who were, you say, killing people in the name of the | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
MQM? I always tried to convince them it is not the nice way. What | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
you are doing, who is giving you the orders, they directly say they | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
got their orders from London. in Karachi is dangerous. After the | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
recent elections a well known political and social campaign there | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
in the city -- campaigner in the city was shot dead outside her home. | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
Over the years I have heard stories of how the police simply kill | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
suspected MQM militants on the streets, meaning the MQM wants | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
revenge. This Pakistani policeman got asylum in Europe because of | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
threats from the Taliban, but also from the MQM. We have changed his | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
name and voice and obscured his image. I think 80% of MQM | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
terrorists arrested by the police are involved in the murder and | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
other terrorist aiveties. When you made -- Activities.When you made | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
these arrests, how did the MQM respond and what did they say to | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
you? The MQM tried to give a statement against me. Also they | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
threatened to kill me and they killed my other colleagues. | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
many of your colleagues did they kill? I think 20.You say the MQM | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
have killed all these police officers and yet you know there are | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
very few convictions in Pakistan. Why are these people never | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
convicted? Nobody wants to give evidence against MQM. Why don't | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
people want to give evidence? they try to give evidence against | :10:24. | :10:32. | |
MQM so MQM will kill them. And their families. Depending how you | :10:32. | :10:41. | |
look at it, Altaf Hussain is charismatic or eccentric. (he | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
sings) On TV he bolsters his image as a modern liberal man, but his | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
reputation in Karachi is so fierce, many people try to avoid even | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
saying his name in public. Why is he able to operate from London? It | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
is not as if spax stand hasn't complained -- Pakistan hasn't | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
complained. For 20 years Pakistani leaders have asked London to | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
control Altaf Hussain. The police are investigating, but what about | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
the Government? This is Britain's deputy High Commisioner to Pakistan | :11:11. | :11:20. | |
paying Altaf Hussain a visit in North London. The MQM says whenever | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
they need visas the Home Office issues them almost without | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
exception. Why does Britain keep its doors open to the MQM in this | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
way. One member of the House of Lords openly critical of the MQM | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
told us he won't go to Karachi because he fears if he did so he | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
could be killed. Another member of the Lords says she doesn't ask | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
questions about the MQM, because, as she put it, she has a child to | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
worry about. It all prompts the question why do British officials | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
so keen to talk about promoting democracy in Pakistan deal with a | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
party that privately, they say, uses violence to achieve its | :11:56. | :12:02. | |
objectives. This letter may help answer that, written by Altaf | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
Hussain it arrived in Number Ten within weeks of 9/11. In it Altaf | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
Hussain offers Tony Blair human intelligence on Jihadis. For years | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
the MQM and the Foreign Office refused to acknowledge this letter | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
is genuine. But through a Freedom of Information request Newsnight | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
has established that the letter is authentic and did reach Number Ten, | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
who passed it on to the Foreign Office. It is a curious thing, on | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
the one hand here you have this party which has a very complicated | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
and controversial reputation in Pakistan being run by remote | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
control at a distance of 4,000 miles by its leader from this very | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
city. On the other hand, it offers Britain some degree of influence in | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
Pakistan. And also a protection against the Jihadis? Yes, the MQM | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
has played very heavily over the years on the idea that it presents | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
a bulwark against Islamist extremism in Pakistan's most | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
populated city. There is no doubt Altaf Hussain is under ever-greater | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
pressure. For many in Pakistan the pressing question is this, will | :13:11. | :13:20. | |
Britain put him on trial? Farooq Sattar, the parliamentary leader of | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
the MQM in Pakistan is here now. When Altaf Hussain says he's going | :13:24. | :13:32. | |
to tear out somebody's abdomen, is he planning to do so personally? | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
Jeremy Paxman, what I have to say after I watched this documentary | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
that the BBC, though it is a very reputable organisation, but it | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
seems that there has been some influence of the profile and | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
radical forces when this documentary was being prepared. | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
don't deny he said this, you don't deny he would tear out someone's | :13:58. | :14:06. | |
abdomen? Whatever his statements have been televised here. They have | :14:06. | :14:13. | |
been all referred to out of context and they have not been there is no | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
reference to context to it in which he has said that, they are | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
irrelevant. When he says to people, we are going to put you in a body | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
bag, that is? He has not said that. Yes he has, it is on tape. He has | :14:28. | :14:37. | |
not said that, he could not say that. Whatever he has said it. | :14:37. | :14:45. | |
People were just laughing. It is because a malicious propaganda and | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
and the media. It is against a secular, middle and working-class | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
party that is MQM. By the perpetrators of the status quo and | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
the political corrupt culture. And a section of the Pakistani media | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
has been behind it, and now I'm seeing this documentary story in | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
the international reputable media, to my shock, I'm shocked to see | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
this. Misinterpretation. Are you also alleging that the people | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
former members of your party, that murders were ordered from London to | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
be carried out in Pakistan, they are also just having a joke are | :15:24. | :15:32. | |
they? I would cat dworically deny and repute -- categorically and | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
deny and repute there is any proof of any order coming from London, | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
and as a result of that anybody got killed. I see.I categorically. | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
you help us with the facts. such things happen in Pakistan. | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
They have to understand the trial in...Help Us with something | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
happened here. They have not been vindicated or substantiated. | :15:55. | :16:02. | |
much money was found inside your offices here and inside Altaf | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
Hussain's house? I know some amount of money was seized. How much?I | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
don't know, because it is a matter of investigation. I would not like | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
to. Our understanding is it is about �150,000 in the office, and | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
�250,000 in his house, where did it come from? Since it is a matter of | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
investigation, I would not like to comment anything further. Where did | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
it come from, in cash? Hundreds of thousands of pounds? There was no | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
court or any prop investigation will ask and then I will respond to | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
that. I don't think it should be a subject of a media trial. That any | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
money found in anybody's possession. These are vast sums of money. What | :16:44. | :16:52. | |
was it for? This money? What was it for? What I'm saying is it is a | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
matter of investigation, so let the investigation be completed. Don't | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
you know what it was for? Nobody was arrested as a result of that. | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
Yet? Nobody was arrested there was no charge framed against either | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
Altaf Hussain or anybody in the party. Yet.And then there is no | :17:12. | :17:19. | |
court case made as of now. Yet.So I think it is better to see how the | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
investigation unfolds in the future. If I suggest to you there was a | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
money laundering operation going on there, what do you say? It is | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
simply you have a right to say whatever you want to say, but you | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
can't be a judge on that. You can't say that simply during the raid if | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
some money was found if during the raid on the house where Mr Altaf | :17:37. | :17:45. | |
Hussain lived, or in any office, so that is directly interpreted as if | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
it was illegally gotten money or out of some illegal means that the | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
money was there. You will co- operate with all investigations? | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
will, we have been. Even in the investigation of the murder of Dr | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
Imran Farooq, catagorically from day one, we said we wanted the | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
arrest of the real culprits. That was after the raid on your leader's | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
house? Even if it was, we have not actually objected to the raid on | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
the house. We have objected to the technicalties into that. Then the | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
raid was carried out documents were taken away, the money was also | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
taken away, no receipt or acknowledgement of that. So you | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
knew there was money taken away? I'm saying some money was seized, | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
I'm not saying it was not. When your leader says it was some | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
conspiracy from Britain, he's wrong is he, you want to co-operate with | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
this investigation? Yeah, but as soon as we see that the | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
investigation is not being restricted to the investigation of | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
the murder of Dr Imran Farooq, but is now going into investigating the | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
procedures of the party, and the operational things of the party, | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
which we see has no direct connection with Dr Imran Farooq's | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
murder, as far as we perceive it. So we are say it in response that | :19:02. | :19:10. | |
we have a right to say that. When all legal familiar yarts are not | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
being observed legal issues are being observed properly, no charge | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
has been framed or anybody arrested. There is nothing I can say beyond | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
that. Thank you very much. Now nice work if you can get it, the | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
independent body which considers what our rulers are paid thinks | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
they ought to get more. Tomorrow they will say they should get over | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
11% more. Public sector pay rises are being capped at 1%. MPs in the | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
judgment of the organisation set up after some of them were discovered | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
with their hands in the till ought to get over �7,000 extra, but their | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
pensions and expenses will suffer. Allegra Stratton is here? It is a | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
fudge that neither side will like. The public won't like it because it | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
is way, way more than the wage rises they have or haven't had in | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
the past and look like they are going to get in the future. It is | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
lr for MPs. You look like you are not too sorry about people who have | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
learned they are going to get a 10% rise. For MPs it takes them just | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
above what their French equivalents get. It takes them nowhere near | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
what their German and American equivalents get. They feel agrieved | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
on that count. And also because a large package of concessions made | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
by Sir Ian Kennedy, which we will look at, the first of which is they | :20:27. | :20:36. | |
will have to accept. Shouldn't there be an apostrophe on that | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
MP's? There were due to be increased in the next few years, it | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
is more like a 9% one. It is lower pensions, it becomes a career | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
average. Cuts to their evening meal allowance. Boo hoo to that. | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
Restriction on taxi fares, and lower payouts for MPs who lose | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
their seats. There is a real worry, not just amongst sitting MPs and | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
people who watch and comment Tate on MPs that the quality you can | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
bring in is difficult when the pay increase is not so good. What they | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
have had today, Jeremy you are laughing. I'm not laughing.You are | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
trying not to. What they have had today is all the pain of a pay rise | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
but not much of the game. All of these, Sir Ian Kennedy's own words | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
will mean the public purse is paying out not much more. I wasn't | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
laughing, I was smiling actually at Margaret Hodge here who is actually | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
taking part in a discussion a bit later on and has very gamely come | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
in to defend what is not going to be a very popular cause I imagine? | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
I don't think I'm going to try to defend it Jeremy. I think it is | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
inappropriate at a time when we are asking public sector workers to | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
take a 1% increase in their pay, we are public sector workers and | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
people, that is how I view myself. You won't be accepting this rise? | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
Let me say something about that, I'm not going to enter into a Dutch | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
auction of I will do it for �30,000. I'm not suggesting a Dutch auction, | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
it is a clear-cut decision, it is being offered? That's what starts | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
to happen. I will tell you why, in the end we will say some MPs will | :22:16. | :22:23. | |
do it for �10-�20,000, some may pay for their seat. Then back to the | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
19th century when people bought their seats. We don't want a Dutch | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
auction. It is inappropriate at a time when every public sector | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
worker is being asked to take a 1% pay rise, I don't know if that is | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
what you are getting, I don't think it is right that MPs should be out | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
of line. You are happy enough with the change to pension arrangements | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
so it is a career average? haven't looked at the details of | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
the pension changes at all. I can't quite understand how he makes it | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
cost neutral. But I'm glad it is cost neutral, that is probably a | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
sensible thing to do. I just think it is the wrong time. Can I make | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
one other observation. If you wish to carry on, please do. The only | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
other observation is this is an incredibly difficult decision to | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
take. When we tried to take it ourselves we got it wrong. We then | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
give it to an outside body, it doesn't look like they have got it | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
right. I just wish as a society we could really have a grown-up | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
conversation about what you think we should get paid. We are having a | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
grown-up conversation about it now. You have just told us you won't get | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
into a Dutch auction and put a figure on it. Would your advice to | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
your colleagues be, don't accept this? I think the advice at this | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
point is take part in the consultation, we haven't got a | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
final figure. My own view, if I'm asked is it shouldn't be more than | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
1% and then let as take it to the next step. With what would be wrong | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
is if people start taking differential amounts. I really | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
think that, that is the long road back into rotten boroughs. See you | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
in a minute. Senior suits from the BBC spent an | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
uncomfortable afternoon today trying to explain how so many | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
senior figures at the organisations managed to stick their snouts in a | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
trough full of public money. They were trying to tell MPs, | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
specifically Margaret Hodge and her colleagues Thesee threw cash at | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
friends to ease their path into the new world. The Director General | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
said the organisation had lost the plot, he's hoping to help them find | :24:19. | :24:29. | |
:24:29. | :24:29. | ||
it again. People who can't get a ticket for a | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
West End show, or a Boris bike, will sometimes end up on a tour of | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
the BBC's new HQ. It is a nice day out, though it is �13.50 a head. | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
Some former BBC bosses had to work for up to two minutes to make that | :24:44. | :24:52. | |
kind of money. Or not work for two minutes, come to that. Easy Big Ben. | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
These visitors are fascinated by what goes on behind the scenes at | :24:56. | :25:06. | |
the corporation. And that goes for license fee payers and MPs as well. | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
The Public Accounts Committee put current BBC top brass on the spot. | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
After the National Audit Office push illusioned a damning report | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
into pay-offs to some of their former colleagues. Did you know | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
about all these severence payments to BBC staff? We knew that | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
severence payments were being made, it was a question of shock and | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
dismay for us to discover how many had been beyond contractual and | :25:32. | :25:39. | |
therefore had been even higher than they needed to be. Where they | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
concede contractual obligations, should the Trust have known? Yes, | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
and if you call in due course a previous Director General of the | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
BBC, I will be as interested as you are in why we didn't know. Lord | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
Patten was referring to former D G Caroline Thompson. The committee | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
heard he wrote to the BBC -- Mark Thompson. The committee heard he | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
wrote to the BBC Trust and said the payments were in line with | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
contracts. Did Mark Thompson lie to you or were you negligent. I have a | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
copy of a letter or note that tame to the Trust and I have the | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
National Audit Office report, those two do not connect. Mark Thompson | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
lied to you? I'm not going to make a comment, you address that to him. | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
Mr Thomson is said to be appearing before MPs at a future date. The | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
New York Times his current employer expressed full confidence in him. | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
When his successor George Entwistle exited after 53 days in the job he | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
was paid �475,000, including �25,000 for a three-week handover | :26:47. | :26:53. | |
to his temporary replacement. Entwistle was paid the more or less | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
equivalent of what one of my constituents earns as an average | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
annual salary for 20 days work above his contractual obligations. | :27:01. | :27:09. | |
What actually did he do in that 20 days. Very little. We started the | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
clock from the end of the month, because we were worried that there | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
might be issues in a handover period to Tim Davie, who was acting | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
Director General, but the fact of the matter is Tim Davie coped | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
brilliantly on his own and within 12 days we had appointed the next | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
Director General, Lord Hall, whose appointment was extremely well | :27:33. | :27:41. | |
received, I think. So you can...So He didn't do anything? As it | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
happened he wasn't required to do anything. Mark Byford, the former | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
Deputy DG left office with �950,000. Mrs Hodge called the pay-offs a | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
fiddle to get people out. Culturally as, I think Lucy Adams | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
and others have said, you all commented, I think we had lost the | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
plot. We had lost the way. We had got bedevilled by zur rows on | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
various salaries. -- zeros on various salaries. | :28:12. | :28:19. | |
Good evening, the Peruvian plan...A Former presenter of this show, who | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
shrugged it off to find respectability in the BBC, said | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
there is a question mark over the chair of the BBC Trust. There is | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
always coming a time where anybody in a senior position has come to | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
the end of their utility, has run out of road, as they say, and I | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
think the questions must be asked and will be asked whether that is | :28:36. | :28:43. | |
the case with Chris Patten. The BBC is a London landmark, it is not on | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
the monopoly board, though a good few who passed through its portals | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
have collected their �200 and the rest. Margaret Hodge is still here, | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
we are also joined by the former BBC chairman, Sir Christopher Bland. | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
Do you think the BBC has been transparent? No. We have had to | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
drag the information so far out of them it all started with The | :29:08. | :29:16. | |
Entrepenurial State pay-off, and then on the back of that -- the | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
Entwistle pay-off, and then there was the cost of somebody in post | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
only for five months. We have had this deeper look, but there are 150 | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
senior managers who have left the BBC over a three-year period, the | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
cost is �25 million. To put that into perspective, the cost of | :29:32. | :29:38. | |
running Radio 4 is double that, so half the cost of running Radio 4, | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
all the programmes on Radio 4 is what was spent on exiting 150 | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
senior managers. Do you know who signed off on those deals? We know | :29:48. | :29:54. | |
who signed off on a few deals. We don't know the amount, the why and | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
the who on most of those deals. That is why we have asked the | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
question of the BBC to provide us with that information. What's gone | :30:01. | :30:08. | |
wrong? Tony Hall put it well, said there was a failure of central | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
oversight. There was a failure of the BBC Executive Committee, not at | :30:13. | :30:21. | |
the BBC Trust, and also of the non- executive directors who sit on the | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
BBC executive. That is where the primary fault lies. Did you say you | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
don't agree? One of the really depressing facet of today's hearing | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
was the inability to accept accountability and always passing | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
the buck. So it has been passed. Welcome to the BBC! It is not | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
uncommon, I'm afraid. Tony Hall didn't pass the buck, he said it | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
was down to. He wasn't here.He said it was the fault of the | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
Executive Committee and it was. me just say this to you, if you are | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
the chair of a Trust, which Chris Patten is, and the members of that | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
Trust, you have a duty both to ensure value for money and a duty | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
to protect the license payers' interest, you take as a strategic | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
objective, you want to reduce the number of senior managers, we all | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
applaud that, but then not to concern yourself with the detail, | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
not to know whether or not actually the BBC broke its own rules. I | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
think it demonstrates that the Trust of not providing proper | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
oversight. I don't buy this argument that it wasn't for them. | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
Some of this was down to parliament. It was parliament who set up the | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
crazy structure of a Trust with clear blue water between it and the | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
BBC, separate employment, separate building, it is the Executive | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
Committee and the first instance who are responsible for signing off | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
that. Someone miss led it?That is yet to be seen, and one of the | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
missing elephants in the room. you know who misled them? One of | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
the missing elements in the room was Mark Thompson, who signed off, | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
I would guess those payments, with the non-executive members of the | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
Executive Committee of the BBC. And they should have exercised in the | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
first instance oversight. It is very convenient today to blame two | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
people who weren't there, Mark Thompson, and the chairman, the ex- | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
chairman of Barclays. You blamed them that is why you are hauling | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
him in front of you. I didn't blame him I have to say members of the | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
Trust blamed him and the implication from the executive was | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
it was the previous executive. I would say everybody is accountable. | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
The purpose of the Trust, it may well be that on the margins we got | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
it, parliament got it a little bit wrong. Got it entirely wrong.Hang | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
on, if the purpose of the Trust is to protect the license fee payers' | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
interests, and the Trust needs to provide value for money, allowing | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
what we described as a quarter of the pay-offs we looked at had | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
broken the BBC's own rules, exceeded them in all sorts of ways, | :32:59. | :33:07. | |
for that not to be monitored by the Trust. It should have been | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
monitored by the Trust. That is not how you set the Trust up. You | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
actually excluded it from day-to- day responsibility for senior | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
executive remuneration. You read the charter. And parliament did | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
that. I'm not talking about responsibility for remuneration, | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
what I'm a talking about. That is what we are talking about. | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
talking about a proper monitoring to protect the license fee payers' | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
interest and ensure value for money. It doesn't mean you take the | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
decisions, but you monitor those decisions, that is what oversight | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
is to ensure that actually the objectives of the Trust and the | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
interests of the license fee payers is being defended. Nobody in the | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
room did that or took responsibility for that. Including | :33:47. | :33:53. | |
if I may say so, I wish she were here, your HR director of the BBC | :33:53. | :34:00. | |
who is paid in excess of �100,000. We invited her on, but she like all | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
the other managers you can't see them for dust? Hang on she has had | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
a tough day. She may have. I also had a tough day. You were handing | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
it out rather than taking it. trying to be fair. I think you were. | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
The fact is Tony Hall was right, it is not the Trust's responsibility | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
in the first instance, it is the BBC's executive, it is the Director | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
General, it was parliament, by the way, who said the Director General | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
shall also be the chairman of the Executive Committee. Another | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
serious element of judgment, next time round you should put that | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
right. There was so much that was so wrong, it was jolly depressing | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
today to hear it all come out. If in fact the executive lied to the | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
Trust, I think that is terrible. I still fail to understand why a | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
whole number of executives walked out with hundreds of thousands of | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
pounds into new jobs. One to the British Library, one to run a | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
college in London, one to work in the private sector for Burberry. | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
Are you going to insist that more names are named? We are going to | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
insist that the names, what they got, why they got it and who they, | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
who authorised it is revealed to the committee. How we then handle | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
that, we will obviously have to do that sensitively. Thank you very | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
much. There was an even more raucous than usual bout of name- | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
calling in the House of Commons today as MPs sleeked at each other | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
about where their party got its funds from. The Conservatives were | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
desperate to get as much mileage out of the question of Labour's | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
links with the trades unions, as they could, before Ed Miliband | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
achieves his ambition of making the issue disappear in the undergrowth | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
of some inquiry or other. The unions themselves, which invented | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
the Labour Party of course are pretty agitated about what Mr | :35:46. | :35:53. | |
Miliband says he has in mind. They have deeper worries too. | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
No motorcars or carts are allowed in the streets of Durham. The | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
miners take complete possession of the city. Around this time of year, | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
Victorian pit bosses gathered in Durham to set miners' wages, not | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
surprisingly the miners turned up too. What began as rally for higher | :36:10. | :36:16. | |
wages became a good knees up, the famous Durham Rhineers' gala. | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
can't scare me # I'm sticking with the union | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
This weekend will be a carnival without its cause. Mines have | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
closed, Britain's Labour forces changed, -- Britain's labour force | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
has changed, and so too its trade unions. | :36:35. | :36:42. | |
This is more like it, the offices of the General Municiple Boiler | :36:42. | :36:52. | |
Makers union or the GMB, 632 Cherry Orchard Walk, Swindon. If Ed | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
Miliband wants a more direct relationship with union members, it | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
is people like this, supermarket lorry drivers on a union health and | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
safety course. In 1979 union membership peaked at 13.2 million. | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
There were sharp falls in the 80s and 90s, and after new Labour in | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
1997 the expansion in public sector employment saw this decline plateau, | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
current membership is 7.2 million, 26% of today's work force are in a | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
union, most are in the public sector, but 14% of private sector | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
employees are in a union. Separate figures show there were 589,000 | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
more union members in 20 -- 59,000 more union members in 2012 than | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
there were before. Tony Watkins has lived through the change. It was a | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
closed shop, that's going back to 1969. To get a job it was closed | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
shop. If you didn't join a union you didn't get a job. It has | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
changed in leaps and bounds. The unions are more professional, they | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
are there for the members and not for what they can get. There is | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
none of these strike actions. Everything is negotiated. | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
Management will talk to you, where ten years ago they wouldn't talk to | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
you. If you were in the union you were stood on. Now they treat you | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
as an equal. The make up of the unionised work force has changed | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
greatly since 1995, there are a million fewer manufacturing members, | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
numbers in construction have fallen too, but in the private sector the | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
number of unionised shop staff has risen, a surge in Teaching | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
Assistants becoming unionised has also pushed up numbers in education, | :38:32. | :38:40. | |
healthcare has seen the numbers grow too. Ed Miliband's idea is the | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
three million union members who pay a political levy will be asked to | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
give their conscious approval that some of that money supports the | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
Labour Party. Right now that is a choice made by union bosses that | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
members are informed of. If asked to make this decision themselves | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
the GMB thinks they just won't. Your boss, Paul Kenny said this | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
morning he thinks numbers will go down, is that your experience? | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
may well go down, on the basis people will have to opt in rather | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
than choosing to opt out. Minutes later Carol's suspicion gets backed | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
up by the men on the health and safety course. Most of the members | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
do stand on their own two feet and I think a lot of the union members | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
aren't politically motivated any more. I don't think we should be | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
associated with any political party. We should be totally separate from | :39:30. | :39:36. | |
it. Would I vote for Labour? No I wouldn't. Have you voted Labour | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
before? A long, long time ago. Now I look at what people are going to | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
give us and then I vote. Labour held only a modest lead over the | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
Tories, in 2010, among public sector union members who said they | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
were certain to vote, but that lead has now increased hugely. Among | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
private sector union members the Tories held a healthy lead in 2010, | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
that lead has now almost disappeared. You think the link | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
with Labour should carry on, but they should listen to you more? | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
Definitely, it is value for money. Members pay for representation. | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
Where is it, we pay for MPs to do our bidding, to a certain extent. | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
They should be agents of us. I know it is an outdated concept, this is | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
how it should happen, but it is not happening. | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
As it was in the beginning of the Labour movement, the unions have | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
come a long way since then, the question is how they wold influence | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
in the future? -- they wield influence in the future? | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
Billy Hayes is the General Secretary of the Communication | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
Workers Union, David Goodhart is the director of the centre left | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
think-tank, Demos. Do you think there is any point any longer in | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
this link? Not really. I think it is stopped being functional | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
actually for both parties to the link. It used to obviously have a | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
purpose, that unions were a great moderating influence in the Labour | :41:05. | :41:12. | |
Party, in the relatively recent past. But I do think Labour suffers | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
from it politically as we saw in the House of Commons today. I think | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
the bigger point is the unions now get very little out of this | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
relationship. They have a massive, massive job to do in modern Britain. | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
They are not doing it very effectively. We have an hourglass | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
labour market. We have about a third of the economies highly- | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
skilled, high productivity jobs, where the unions are quite well | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
organised. We have a middle sector, public sector and others, we have a | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
massive bottom of the hourglass, which is about 35% of the | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
population, ten million people who are mainly in low paid jobs in care | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
in cleaning in retail, and these jobs are not organised, with one or | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
two exceptions. The unions have an historic job to do organising there. | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
And the link with the Labour Party is not helping them do that. Do you | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
feel it helps you? I think it does, I think the link with the Labour | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
Party is a connection with the work place, you wouldn't have had the | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
minimum wage had it not been for the affiliation to the Labour Party. | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
But it has been described in the past, it is a contentious alliance, | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
it is the most and transparent relationship of any political party | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
when you compare, they are called donors, but the donations are made | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
by the Conservatives...Let As stay off the Tories and talk about the | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
unions and Labour, or the unions in particular. Explain to him why he | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
might be in the sky with this? could go on having a relationship, | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
look at Germany the trade unions there don't have the kind of | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
official affiliation to the Social Democratic Party, but come election | :42:52. | :42:59. | |
time most of the officials they are out there, you know, battling for | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
the SPD. But it doesn't damage the SPD politically, they are not seen | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
as funded by the unions. I mean I think this point about the minimum | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
wage is not right. You could have had that even if you had not been | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
affiliated to the Labour Party. There are all sorts of things you | :43:16. | :43:26. | |
could and should have and that actually labour -- Labour | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
affiliation there. According to Biz, if you are a union member you enjoy | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
an 18% difference to non-unionised work forces, where they are | :43:34. | :43:41. | |
organised they are effective. are effective. We are across BT, | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
sant tanned der, where we are organised we are effective. There | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
is a issues with sector, the big corporations have gone, and one of | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
the things unions have to do is recognise the changes that are | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
taking place demo graphically. The majority of trade unionists in | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
Britain are women. We need more ethnic minorities in positions of | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
leadership. The unions have to change. Unions are still effective. | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
We have just seen tonight on the telly, a celebration of somebody | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
getting the sack. I know it is a big popular programme, the | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
apprentice, when was the last time there was a television programme | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
about the role of trade unions in the work place, we don't get that | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
any more. We are just having one now, we are having a programme | :44:22. | :44:29. | |
about it now. Jeremy with the greatest respect to you, 11.10 on a | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
Wednesday night, we are...You dream on for a bit, matey! | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
saying you are effective, that is exactly what I'm a saying, but you | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
are not representing the working poor of Britain. We have eight to | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
ten million low-skilled jobs, with the exception of the retail sector | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
you guys are not there. Your heartland is in the public sector. | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
You represent professionals. members are in telecommunications. | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
The whole movement I'm a talking about. I'm talking about my own | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
union and experience, we have some of the best paid people in Britain | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
and they want to be in a union, I get your point about the bottom end, | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
but we are organising the bottom end as well. Cloners, catering. | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
have to relearn those skills you need all the time and energy and | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
money at your disposal to do that massive job of organising the | :45:19. | :45:25. | |
bottom ten million low-paid people in Britain. I think the Labour | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
Party connection. Politics is not for ordinary people then. Quite the | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
opposite. That is the whole discourse that we are hearing in | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
Britain, it is all of a sudden trade unionists are starting to get | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
a bid more influence in terms of this or that selection and it | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
excites the posh people. You have no influence over the Labour Party. | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
The posh people's politics is getting a bit unsettled that some | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
how or another the trade unions are starting to exert a bit more | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
influence than before, and it is exciting everyone. But the Labour | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
Party has become posh under your, with your link. It is also about | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
how you see politics in this country. It was quite clear from | :46:05. | :46:11. | |
that piece there that it a lot of your members who don't see it in | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
quite the direct lined way, linear way that you in the trade union | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
leadership see the business of this country? That is true, we regularly | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
poll our members, 48% of our members voted Labour last election. | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
22% Conservative, 20% liberal. I'm not a political loader in a sense | :46:30. | :46:36. | |
that I don't represent the Labour Party, I represent the CWU, but we | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
want political influence. You need political influence on the | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
coalition and employers, you need to be a stakeholder in the economy, | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
not just narrowly focused on one political party. You and the whole | :46:48. | :46:50. | |
trade union movement should be running a campaign for the living | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
wage, there is huge support for it, Boris Johnson supports it, lots of | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
Tories support it, and it is not happening. The CWU is involved in | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
the living page, we pay our employees the living wage, we are | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
looking for accreditation on that. But we do engage with other | :47:08. | :47:14. | |
political parties. On behalf of the CWU. It is harder, surely?What I | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
find fascinating this week is there is nothing that excites the media | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
and political class in this country than talking about trade unions, it | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
is the one area excluded from political life. We are the second- | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
biggest voluntary organisation in Britain today, six million people | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
join and are members of the trade union movement, the National Trust | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
is the biggest. How much say do we get in that process. There is | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
nothing excites the posh political consensus in this country an | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
ordinary working people having a say. You would have a louder voice | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
if you were not associated just with one political party I'm afraid. | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
Thank you very much indeed. That's it for now, if we can make | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
it into the office tomorrow through all the walking wounded executive, | :47:54. | :48:04. | |
:48:04. | :48:09. | ||
we will have lots more that the Temperatures reached 28 Celsius in | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
the best of the sunshineed to, but the sunshine wasn't as widespread | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
as recent days, we will make that right tomorrow, Earl legal cloud | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
across eastern areas will burn back on the coast, most of us in the | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
same boat. Patchy cloud, Northern Ireland and Scotland. The warm | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
spots 27, 28 degrees, an isolated thundery downpour into the | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
Grampians, most dry. Clearly where you have the sunshine here and | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
across northern England, compared with the cloud today it will have | :48:37. | :48:44. | |
an impact on the temperature, higher through the Midlands. Cloud | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
in Lincolnshire, but it will be a brighter and warmer day at Trent | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
Bridge, for the Test Match and southern England. The sunshine | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
lighting up the ground, maybe not quite as warm across south-west | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
England and Wales, temperatures easily into the 20s, light winds, | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
glorious afternoon to come. But will it last? As we go deeper into | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
the week. Looking into Friday it will. Plenty of sunshine again, and | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
actually on Friday, temperatures will be even higher, some spots | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
near 30, parts of north-east England down to Yorkshire, into the | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
Midlands for example, it will be another cracking day to come. Let's | :49:17. | :49:21. |