Browse content similar to 29/07/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, Twitter trolls, mad, sad or just bad. Possibly all three. | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
And what some believe could be a watershed moment for social media, | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
a woman campaigner has been subjected to abusive attacks with | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
threats of rape. The backlash has been profound. Paul misson has been | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
on a troll hunt. Whoever has had that conversation has all these | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
things, your Playstation account, and they have had all three of | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
these Twitter accounts, which have issued rape threats. That is what | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
they have done. Who should stop the tweets of hate, threats and abuse, | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
the law or Twitter? A stand-off in Egypt between the military and | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
Islamists. Is this the defining struggle of the Arab Spring. Those | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
who support the army see this as their golden opportunity to finish | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
off the Muslim Brotherhood. place where it all began, Tunisia | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
where Islamist radical, called Salafists assert their authority on | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
the street and hand out vigilante justice. TRANSLATION: People say | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
Salafists are scary monsters, that is not true, they are sweet as | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
lambs, I told you they gave me back my property. And this. TRANSLATION: | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
If a person is gay and seeks God and has goodwill, who am I to judge | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
him? A papal press conference, no less as Pope Francis appears to | :01:31. | :01:39. | |
seek conciliation with homosexuals. Is this a soft answer that turnth | :01:39. | :01:47. | |
away wrath, or a significant change in Vatican thinking. Good evening, | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
it is difficult to believe that a campaign to put the face of one of | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
this country's most beloved novelists, Jane Austen, on a �10 | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
note, would end in rape threats. Has what has happened to the | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
feminist campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez. On Twitter she was | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
abused but a number of people, presumably men, by men who hid | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
their identity known as trolls. Twitter said it was testing a | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
button to report abuse with every tweet. But amid a storm of protest | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
Twitter's own response has been branded weak and inadequate. We | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
will hear from Caroline Criado- Perez in a moment. First we are on | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
a troll hunt. Amid a deluge of on-line rape | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
threat, the journalist Caroline Criado-Perez and MP Stella Creasy, | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
spent the day fighting back against the called trolls. At Newsnight we | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
spent the day trying to find them. Someone called "rapehernow". | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
says he wants to BEEP someone until they die. This one responds, he | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
says? He says could I help you with that LOL. You have tracked him | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
down? I have. Mike Smith, a journalist specialising in this | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
technology had been monitoring the threats all weekend and managed to | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
communicate with one of the men making them. He is calling her a | :03:08. | :03:16. | |
bitch and then he's saying he will find her, and he BEEP rape her and | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
wouldn't mind a piece. I managed to communicate through the Twitter | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
message service, and I tried to be friendly and asked why he would be | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
trying to do that, and he let slip a bit of information to enable me | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
to track him down. Where is he? South Shields. It is not just | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
threats of rape that break the law. The CPS set out guidelines lawyers | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
should take in prosecutions with violations in social media. It | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
needs to be a credible threat of violence that specifically targets | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
an individual, or individuals, breaches a court order, or it is | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
considered grossly offensive, obscene or false. But laws need the | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
police to enforce them. Though the police have made one arrest, they | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
are running to catch up. We are having to devote more resources to | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
it. Hence I would much rather these matters be dealt with by Twitter | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
and others themselves and stopping these things happening straight | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
away. The moment someone transgresses I would like them off | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
the system. I know there are lots of problems with that and they can | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
create new accounts and there are concerns about freedom of speech. I | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
don't think anyone can argue about the sorts of things we heard about | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
over the weekend are the sorts of things anyone should be saying in | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
any public space. Here is the trail we had to follow, by direct message | :04:31. | :04:38. | |
the man making the rape threat admitted using numerous aliases. | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
Then he revealed his game attack, or user name on Playstation, and | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
that led us to a Facebook account. Two pieces of technical evidence | :04:48. | :04:56. | |
pointed to an internet connection in soutd shields, I phoned -- south | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
sheels. I phoned the man. They have had your Playstation accounts and | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
all three of these Twitter accounts which have issued rape threats. | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
That is what they have done. denied running the Twitter accounts, | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
saying his e-mail had been hacked recently. We will be handing all | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
our evidence to the police. One of the women on the receiving | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
end of these threats had an uncompromising message for the | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
issuers. I would say you are not going to succeed in intimidating us, | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
men and women will stand together and say violence against women is | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
wrong. If you commit criminal acts and threaten and harass women in | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
this way there will be consequences. We will stand together for a | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
different type of Twitter and Facebook, for a space in which | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
every voice can be heard equally and with respect. Believe me this | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
is not going away and it will not be tolerated any more. But rape | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
threats are only one of the ways called internet trolls break the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
law. Another way is to mention somebody's name in the context of a | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
rape joke. I confronted one of the people doing that today. Since then | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
his account has been blocked. We didn't make a complaint but it | :06:03. | :06:13. | |
:06:13. | :06:14. | ||
looks like Twitter has blocked Lord LOLs. He's back as another person, | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
he's sexymanicorn and joined by a whole crew of people, who are not | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
making threats against me and the BBC, but are for example decribing | :06:22. | :06:30. | |
us as paedophiles and justifying rape both of men and women. This | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
was a community of called trolls, mainly in the USA and beyond UK law. | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
Most of what they wrote can't be shown. I get a lot of abuse on the | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
Internet, mainly about economics. But it is only since I called out | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
the person sending the rape jokes that this bunch of people has | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
invaded my timeline, all of whom seem to be aligned around what they | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
call "freedom of speech". All of them use this technique of speaking | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
in the most disgusting and graphic way about sexual violence. It is my | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
first experience of what a lot of women experience routinely. The net | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
effect and intention is to deny some people a voice at all. We | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
invited Twitter to join us tonight, but they didn't want to give an | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
interview. I'm joined by Caroline Criado-Perez, the journalist and | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
equality campaigner subjected to the abuse for The Austerity | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
Olympics as you campaign. And Claire Hardaker who has researched | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
on-line aggression, deception and manipulation, which includes | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
trolling, the chief executive of the open rights group which | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
campaigns for internet freedom, and John Carr, who advises the | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
Government on internet safety. What effect has all this had on you? | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
been completely overwhelming. It is consuming my lifeboat physically | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
and emotionally. I have not really had much sleep. You know the | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
threats have been so explicit and so graphic that obviously I have, | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
they have stuck with me in my head. And have really put me in fear, I | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
realised actually when a journalist came to my house last night at | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
10.15 and I just had this huge reaction of total and utter terror, | :08:15. | :08:23. | |
in a way that I hadn't really realised I was feeling. It has been | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
bubbling under the surface whilst feeling I'm standing up for myself. | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
Do you feel at risk? I think, you know, as I said, consciously I'm | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
not walking around feeling really terrified, but I think underneath | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
the surface there is, I think I just feel under siege it has been | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
going on for five days and it is so relentless and the threats have | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
been so graphic and people specifically saying they will find | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
me and people have posted what they thought was my address on-line, | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
luckily it wasn't. The fact that they have tried to do that is | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
really disturbing. It's almost idiotic to suggest you ignore it. | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
But some people ignore the abuse they get on Twitter, there is | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
obviously a line between what is abusive, what is threatening and | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
what is possibly criminal? Absolutely. I think we need to be | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
very, very clear about the difference between for example | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
traditional trolling, if you want to call it that. Which is someone | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
just trying to look for a reaction. And the kind of stuff I have been | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
getting which has been either criminal or has been at the very | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
least trying to shut me up and silence me, it has been not liking | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
women having a voice. That is why I refuse to be silenced. I suppose | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
that's one of the most shocking things to anybody who uses Twitter | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
who is male who suddenly wakes up to the fact that there is a lot of | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
men who hate women and use Twitter as a way of conveying is that? | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
of the things the Internet does seem to do, is psychology shows | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
that human being has an inherent entertainment through violence, | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
whether linguistic or physical violence. Look at the films or | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
television programmes we consume, computer games that are popular. | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
One of the things the Internet does, it seems to allow those who don't | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
just want to consume it as a form of spectacle but to engage in it. | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
It allows that small minority the option to go in there and say | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
something extreme and horrific. Don't they get there is a real | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
person at the end of this? There is a lot of research that suggest it | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
is road rage, where you can't see the person or the reaction. It is | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
not really a human any more. It is just words on a screen. There is a | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
lot of research to suggest that the minute there is no facial | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
expression, body language, it stops being a human being. It is just | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
words, it doesn't matter. And you used the word "entertainment", is | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
this fun for some people? There is a lot of evidence to suggest that | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
some people are doing this specifically for entertainment. It | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
might be because they are a bit bored, it might be just to | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
entertain a group of friends or colleagues if you want to call them | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
that, or otherwise, it is just to kill a bit of time. Did you talk to | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
Twitter about this today, what are they doing about it? It was | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
actually quite a positive conversation, which is not what I | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
was expecting given their reaction publicly up until this point. | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
think they have been pretty slow, didn't somebody block you from | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
Twitter? From Twitter, we contacted one of the managers at Twitter, | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
Mark Lucky, his response telling him that this women has been saving | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
rape threats for ten hours was to look the account. I discovered | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
today when someone sent me a tweet that copied me in I couldn't expand | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
the conversation because he had looked me. I can't imagine from a | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
decent human being perspective or a publicity situation how he could be | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
doing that. He's probably embarrassed now. Have they said | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
anything now? They have admitted their reaction was woeful. What | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
they said about co-operation with the police is the police had | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
contacted them but hadn't asked about any specific handles yet. | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
They had responded within the hour, this was yesterday, and they said | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
the police have yet to get back to them to follow up the request. | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
Which obviously I'm very concerned about. John, are the police, do the | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
police take a rape threat like this on Twitter as seriously as they | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
would if a man yelled at a woman a threat about rape? You would hope | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
so. Part of the problem with not just this particular type of | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
despicable crime, but many others, I'm afraid that we see on the | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
Internet is the sheer volumes of it. At one point you were getting 50 | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
tweets per hour, imagine if that is across the whole of the twitter | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
space, if that type of thing was going on at any scale, it would | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
overwhelm the police's capacity. that what it is about, or is it | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
about will to do something. There have been other cases where after | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
there has been some publicity something has been done and before | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
that nothing has been done? I think it is really important that the | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
police focus, certainly on your case, because it has got such | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
publicity. That will send out a very powerful message to the other | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
sad individuals who are doing these types of crimes that it isn't a | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
space where they can get away with it. But you know, the volumes are a | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
real challenge. Twitter putting a button on the website is a good | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
idea, but there has to be something behind the button. What are the | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
police doing about this? Well they arrested one man, I think that was | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
yesterday. From what they have told me they are looking into all the | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
tweets that I'm being sent and monitoring them and trying to see | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
who they can track down and who they should be tracking down. I'm | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
going back to the police station tomorrow to flag up the users who | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
have been particularly disturbing. For those people who see Twitter as | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
really useful, great fun, perfectly innocent, normal thing to do, who | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
whose responsibility is it to sort it out? Ultimately it has to be the | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
police. It is helpful of course for Twitter to co-operate with the | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
police and to do some basic things. But if we're talking about people | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
making such serious threats then those people do need to be brought | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
to book. They need to be investigated by the police, taken | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
to court and punished. Because we are talking about crimes here. I | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
think the one thing I have been a little bit disappointed with in the | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
debate and some of the suggestions over the last few days, we were | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
completely concentrating on Twitter's role. It wouldn't happen | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
without Twitter. People who don't know Caroline or anybody else won't | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
make rape threats against her, this is an enabling tool for all sorts | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
of things including threats. Twitter has some responsibility? | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
has, but ultimately Twitter doesn't run the police, it doesn't run | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
courts and it doesn't have prisons. So if we actually want these people | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
to be punished, it has to reach the police and they have to be skilled | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
to do things. The point I'm trying to get at is, are you saying that | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
Twitter has got nothing to do with this, this is just the people who | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
invented movable type, anything you write is nothing to do with me, | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
mate? No, but the problem is they are never going to be terribly good | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
at the kind of enforcement we want from society. The sort of tools we | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
are talking about they can be, they tend to be subjected to things like | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
automation, the people who look at the kinds of reports tend to go | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
very underpaid. We see this across -- tend to be very underpaid. We | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
see this across the platform, it is police who take people to court. | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
you buy that? I don't, at all. There are lots of technical tools | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
you can deploy. If words like "rape" suddenly start appearing on | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
your site they can be picked up by software. People working for | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
Twitter can and should be looking at it checking out to see exactly | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
what is going on. The idea that these companies can just set up | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
these spaces and then walk away and say well police it is now down to | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
you, we are sorry we haven't got the resources to keep this safe, | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
you do it. That is not acceptable. Do you see this, you have | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
researched this a lot, do you see this as a watershed moment? For me | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
it is an important moment where it finally seems to have gotten enough | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
momentum, if you like, on an issue apparently as mundane as Jane | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
Austen on a note, which I'm thrilled by. For that to be a thing. | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
It is important enough. We had the Tom Daley incident as we know, it | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
shocked people but didn't get this response. I'm kind of hoping and I | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
wouldn't wish this on anybody, I'm hoping this might actually be the | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
thing that makes people sit up and think, we need to do something. | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
you agree with that. It could potentionally be a watershed moment | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
and changing a lot of people are thinking about it? I really hope so, | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
because we have turned to what the police are do the police have been | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
extremely inadequate, we have seen repeatedly they focus on high- | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
profile cases. We were in a meeting with MPs and the MPs were saying | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
that they talked to the police and they were unable to get a response. | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
Some of the people talking about this campaign yesterday were saying | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
we similar things, that they had talked to the police about it, and | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
the police had failed to completely deal with the issue. I do find it | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
really disturbing, absolutely, that it has taken this level of public | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
pressure and publicity for police to act. We do know people have | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
reported things. Certain people have got in touch with me and said | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
I have received a rape and death threat and the police haven't done | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
anything, can you advise me on how to make the police listen to me. I | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
don't know what to say to them. of the things that underlines this, | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
there is all sorts of behaviour that used to be acceptable, smoking | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
in a pub, not wearing a seatbelt, they are completely unacceptable | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
now, and broadly people don't do it. Some people think this is | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
acceptable behaviour, that is more of the point, and the police have | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
to solve various cases, but changing people's behaviour is at | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
the root of this? Absolutely, and the Internet is still a relatively | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
new and immature technology, it is redefining the perameters in which | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
people can and do behave. The companies themselves cannot simply | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
step back and say well we have done this, we have created these clever | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
tools it is up to the state to sort out the mess we have essentially | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
put there. I was wondering, we did some investigation on this today, | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
it is quite possible that the person, the people who made these | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
threats against you are watching this programme, I wondered what | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
your, what you would like to say to them? I would like to say I think | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
they are completely pathetic, and if they think that they are going | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
to drive me or any other woman off the Internet they will be sorely | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
disappointed. Do you think it will have the opposite effect? I think | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
it will, I have had so much support, it has drowned out the threats now. | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
So much of the support has been saying thank you so much for | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
standing up to them. I have received this in the past and it | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
silenced me, and I know people who have had to leave Twitter as a | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
result of it. I'm not going to do that any more. I think it is really, | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
really important that we make the stand and we keep shouting back. | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
Because otherwise we let them win. There are so many more of us than | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
there are of them. The mentions on my Twitter feed really demonstrate. | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
That we far outnumber them, we really can win this. | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
Thank you very much. After the killings of dozens of protesters | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
over the weekend, there has been an uneasy calm across Egypt today, for | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
many Egyptians and those across the Arab world the battle for the | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
streets of Cairo and all lax Andrea is one of the defining moments of | :19:27. | :19:36. | |
the -- Alexandria is one of the defining moments of the rising We | :19:36. | :19:43. | |
have a report from Egypt this week. And we're joined from Cairo. This | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
backdown by the army, is it continuing? It is, although one has | :19:49. | :19:57. | |
to say not in the deadly form that we saw on Saturday and Sunday. What | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
happened over the weekend was attacks on supporters of the ousted | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
President in a stronghold in the east of this city at a mosque | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
called Rabaa al-Adawiya. What was going on there, according to the | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
Muslim Brotherhood, is snipers were pick off demonstrators, dozens, | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
they say over 70 killed and hundreds wounded with aimed shots. | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
Now the police perhaps unsurprisingly deny this, but it is | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
clear that those sorts of numbers are in the right area for how many | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
people were killed there. This has caused a lot of heightened tension | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
here with supporters of strong action by the army believing now is | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
their moment and people from the Brotherhood side of it fearing that | :20:44. | :20:52. | |
the area around the mosque could be stormed at any moment. Today the | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
Brotherhood said the Interior Ministry re-established its anti- | :20:56. | :21:03. | |
extremism department, which would be one of several shadowy-type | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
intelligence organisations taking part in the crackdown on the Muslim | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
Brotherhood. We see daily developments which suggests the | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
security forces are trying to push them harder and harder. Given that, | :21:11. | :21:19. | |
what are the options for the army and how they proceed with this? | :21:19. | :21:27. | |
mosque has become central to this Rabaa al-Adawiya in Cairo. Some | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
people, we were talking to some who support the army and support very | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
strong action, they talk in terms of finishing it and the security | :21:34. | :21:41. | |
forces going in. I think it is fairly clear though that at least | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
thus far what the army and the police forces do not want is a sort | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
of Tiananmen Square-type action where tanks go in and cause huge | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
loss of life around the mosque. They do understand that the | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
Americans and others are watching and they have to play this | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
tactically. I think there is a strong will to try to, if you like, | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
overcome opposition there, and reclaim that area of the city, but | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
to try to do so by a series of subtle steps or things that may be | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
to a greater or lesser extent deniable. The Muslim Brotherhood | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
for its part is calling on supporter, tomorrow, for example, | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
to go down there and rally in the expectation if they bring more | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
people down there, that could dissuade the forces from storming | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
it. If that's indeed what they are planning. This is a lot bigger than | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
just Egypt, many people across the Arab world see this as a key moment | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
for the Arab Spring. Is it being seen there as the counter | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
revolution? That is an interesting question, the fascinating thing is | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
the number of people who support the army's action here but who | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
still see themselves as very committed Muslims, and devout | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
Islamists, meaning people who believe that politics and the way | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
the country is run should be animated by the spirit of Islam and | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
its ideas of justice and social justice and that type of ideology. | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
You might say how could they be on the side of the army when they are | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
doing this to the Muslim Brotherhood. There are different | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
strains of Islam and political Islam, Salafist, people who are | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
stronger in their religious observance than the Muslim | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
Brotherhood originally sided with the army on the coup. They have | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
some what distanced themselves now. Some think they will run in | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
elections, even though they are months off and all sorts of things | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
will happen. They will run because they want the opportunity to | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
relieve the Muslim Brotherhood, discredited by that year in | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
Government of their supporters. There is crude political | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
calculation going on here. It could be the Salafist who could gain in | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
this situation as they gained electorally in Tunisia and have | :24:02. | :24:10. | |
done well in Libya too. As we have seen most obviously in | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
Egypt, for years all across the Arab world various dictators and | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
strongmen have kept radical Islamist groups in check. One of | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
the freedoms won by the uprisings in 2011, has been for radical | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
Islamists to operate more openly. In Tunisia, a place where the Arab | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
Spring began, a tiny minority of fundamentalists, some violent, have | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
mounted a major challenge to the state. We have gained a unique | :24:38. | :24:45. | |
access to the Salafists to the coastal down of Bezerate. We went | :24:45. | :24:54. | |
to look at who is in control. In this cafe, the coffee machine works | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
long into the Ramadan night. But along with the coffee, he service | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
his regulars in this ragged suburb something even stronger and sweeter. | :25:04. | :25:11. | |
The vision of a perfect Islamic Society. It would spend the end of | :25:11. | :25:18. | |
Tunisia as we know it. TRANSLATION: Our goal is clear to implement | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
Sharia Law in this country and throughout the world. With Sharia | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
people will be able to co-exist and get their rights. People say they | :25:27. | :25:34. | |
won't get their rights through the state, but through Sharia Law. | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
man is a Salafist, one of a growing number of Sunni Muslims who believe | :25:39. | :25:47. | |
Islam should be practised as it was in the earliest days of the faith. | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
In this town this year some Salafists have been imposing that | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
morality on others, trying, it appears, to build a parallel state. | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
A Salafist patrol demands to know what this young woman is doing | :26:01. | :26:11. | |
:26:11. | :26:21. | ||
alone in a shop with a man she's not related to. But in the end it | :26:21. | :26:31. | |
:26:31. | :26:31. | ||
doesn't matter what she thinks, she's forced to leave. Elsewhere | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
Salafist vigilantes on a motorbike, spy a man they suspect of being | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
drunk. He's surrounded, then the Salafist in the brown leather coat | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
approaches and starts to beat him with a metal chain, a punishment | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
for unIslamic behaviour. Here is another victim of the vigilantes, | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
he says Salafists armed with swords dragged him from his car when they | :26:54. | :27:01. | |
found him drinking beer with a friend. TRANSLATION: They were | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
shouting Allah hu Akbar, and the swords were coming down on my head | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
and face, I tried to protect myself with my hands, that is why I have | :27:10. | :27:17. | |
all these cuts on them. How can this happen in this town? On a lazy | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
summer afternoon it looks like a pretty laid back place. It is | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
Tunisia's northern-most port, open for centuries to outside cultures, | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
under French colonialists, and the secular dictatorship that followed, | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
many Tunisians adopted a relaxed form of Islam, but the revolution | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
two years ago that started the Arab Spring, reignited the struggle | :27:39. | :27:49. | |
:27:49. | :27:53. | ||
between liberal values and Islamic fundamentalist ones. Many saw the | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
uprisings bringing the end of oppression and the start of | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
democracy. It seems they only opened up the space for a more | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
intense battle for hearts and minds, but control of the streets and what | :28:06. | :28:16. | |
:28:16. | :28:16. | ||
could be irreconcilable world views. Here Salafists mounted one of their | :28:16. | :28:23. | |
most serious challenges to the state. | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
At the centre of their network a softly spoken shopkeeper. He says | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
he fought as a Jihadi in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like many | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
other Salafists he was jailed when he came back to Tunisia. Then he | :28:38. | :28:45. | |
turned his clothes can I osk into an alternative Islamic law court. | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
More attractive to some citizens than the state's inefficient and | :28:50. | :28:58. | |
sometimes corrupt legal system. This woman hopes he can stop her | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
husband divorcing her, he's threatening to take the family home | :29:03. | :29:13. | |
:29:13. | :29:33. | ||
After she leaves we're told he sends his followers to talk to her | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
husband. The marriage is preserved. Meanwhile the parents of a 14-year- | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
old boy bring a man they say took their son's mobile phone and tried | :29:42. | :29:52. | |
:29:52. | :30:18. | ||
He says he got the phone back and now the man rarely leaves his home. | :30:18. | :30:25. | |
Another victory for Islamic justice. With every such victory Salafism | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
spreads. This man joined the movement after his cafe was robbed | :30:30. | :30:40. | |
:30:40. | :30:41. | ||
and Salafists brought the stolen goods back. TRANSLATION: People say | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
Salafists are scary monsters, that is not true, on the contrary, they | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
are innocent, sweet as lambs. I told you they gave me back my | :30:49. | :30:58. | |
property. But the state's been fighting back against Salafism. In | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
this stop-and-search operation, police pick up three men, one has a | :31:03. | :31:12. | |
cannister of pepper spray, illegal in Tunisia. Since January more than | :31:12. | :31:21. | |
100 Salafists have been arrested here. TRANSLATION: After the | :31:21. | :31:27. | |
revolution law and order broke down, we had to regain control, step-by- | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
step, the state was under threat. Some groups tried to overpower it, | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
that forced us to act, to put things back how they were before, | :31:35. | :31:43. | |
to make you Tunisia for all Tunisians again. Last September a | :31:43. | :31:51. | |
Salafist mob stormed the US embassy in Tunis. In February the secular | :31:51. | :31:58. | |
opposition leader was buried after he was aasated, police say, by a | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
militant Salafist group. -- assassinated, police say, by a | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
militant Salafist group. There was a massive show of force to stop | :32:07. | :32:16. | |
Salafist from holding a conference. Shortly afterwards the cafe was -- | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
the cloth kiosk was demolished. This is all that remains of the | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
kiosk, it has been bulldozed by the authorities. He has fled, some say | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
to Libya, some say to Mali. But the social problems that helped spread | :32:33. | :32:40. | |
Salafism haven't gone away. But the police are now back in control. | :32:40. | :32:47. | |
They are taking Newsnight on patrol to prove T the first man they stop | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
has a Salafist beard. They say they don't target particular groups, | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
only suspected criminals. We have stopped now because the police just | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
saw a machine in a black beard, a Salafist, passing us going the | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
other way on a motorcycle, he wouldn't stop, now they have sent | :33:06. | :33:16. | |
:33:16. | :33:17. | ||
other men back to try to detain him. Today they uncover a range of petty | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
crimes, but of the 60 or so Salafists arrested since May, two | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
face trial on the charge of attempting to replace the state. | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
This crackdown is happening not under a secular Government, but an | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
Islamist one. Islamists won the first free elections here, just as | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
they did in Egypt. But the Government here now is in an | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
awkward position. It has to reassure secularists, to avoid the | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
chance of being toppled, as Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood was, but it also | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
has to retain the loyalty of its own religious constituency. | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
Protestors were out on the streets of Tunis again last week after | :33:57. | :34:06. | |
another political killing. Of the left-wing opposition leader,. | :34:06. | :34:15. | |
Whoever was responsible, many feel democracy is not yet secure. | :34:15. | :34:23. | |
Back here the annual International Festival is under way. This is | :34:23. | :34:30. | |
spiritual music, though from the relaxed souf if I tradition. -- | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
Soufi tradition. Some think Tunis is too liberal and diverse a | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
society to be seriously destablised. But many secular Tunisians like | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
these are still afraid that their freedoms will gradually be | :34:43. | :34:52. | |
curtailed. Across town Salah Badrouni's last customer has gone | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
home. He knows Salafists like him must now lie low for a while, he's | :34:57. | :35:07. | |
:35:07. | :35:08. | ||
not giving up. TRANSLATION: On the contrary there is no retreat, we | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
are still going forward. Maybe we can do as much charity work now. We | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
meet less often because some of our leaders have had to leave Tunisia. | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
But even if we have had a setback, our sons will continue our path. | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
Islam will keep pursuing its purpose. It won't be stopped by | :35:25. | :35:35. | |
:35:35. | :35:36. | ||
anything or anyone. Another night of fundamentalist-flavoured coffee | :35:36. | :35:44. | |
is over. But the battle for the city goes on. | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
If someone is gay and seeks the Lord, who am I to judge, the words | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
of Pope Francis and what some have interpreted as a conciliatory move | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
towards homosexuals. The Pope added that the problem is not having the | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
orientation, it is lobbying, that is the most serious problem. And by | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
lobbying Pope Francis was referring to what is said to be a gay lobby | :36:05. | :36:12. | |
at the heart of the Vatican's administration. | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
Two Popes, two very different styles. The previous Pontiff, both | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
Benedict had a formal and traditional manner, contrast that | :36:19. | :36:25. | |
with Pope Francis, more relaxed, and you get the point. Pope Francis | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
has just travelled back from Brazil where he toured the country without | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
bullet-proof screens and received a reception more akin to a rock star. | :36:35. | :36:43. | |
He addressed the three-million strong audience in Copacabana Beach, | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
the biggest audience the world has seen. He spoke to young people | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
about harnessing their energy and creativity, he said go and don't be | :36:49. | :36:56. | |
afraid of training. Now in a further break from tradition the | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
Pope held an impromptu press conference for more than an hour on | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
the journey home from the Vatican. As well as fielding questions on | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
the roles of women, he was asked about reports of a gay lobby within | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
the church. TRANSLATION: A lot is written about the gay loby. I still | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
haven't seen anyone in the VAT -- lobby. I still haven't seen anyone | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
in the Vatican with an identity card saying they are gay. The media | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
say they are there. I think when one is found a person like this we | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
have to distinguish between the fact that they are a gay person and | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
the fact that there is a gay lobby. If a person is gay and seeks God | :37:33. | :37:43. | |
:37:43. | :37:44. | ||
and has goodwill, who am I to judge him? The comments have caused a | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
stir, how much it will change direction in the church is unclear. | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
Pope Francis reminded the press while homosexual orientation is not | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
considered sinful in the Roman Catholic teaching, the homosexual | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
acts are, the presentation is different but is the essential | :37:59. | :38:07. | |
message the same. Joining me now is Jo Stanley, who organises a | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
fortnightly service for gay Catholics, and the editor of the | :38:11. | :38:18. | |
Catholic Herald. What do you make of what the Pope had to say? | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
pudsled behind the comment about a gay lobby. But I'm very welcoming | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
of the change in rhetoric that has come about, the headline, who am I | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
to judge? I'm interested, you used the word "rhetoric", what does that | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
mean in the end? It is very clear that he didn't say there was going | :38:38. | :38:45. | |
to be any change in church teaching. We wouldn't expect him to really. | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
But by contrast with the last Pope who was a very brilliant man but | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
really used some extremely uncharitable language towards gay | :38:57. | :39:04. | |
people at times. This Pope's openness and kind of | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
approachability I think will make a huge impact on people who are gay | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
and who are believers. What do you make of it, church teaching I think | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
is that homosexuality is intrinsically disorders and that | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
won't change? He wasn't changing that I don't think, but what I was | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
very interested in was the way that his words, his humble approach, | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
which said I'm no-one to judge, has really, the potential of changing | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
the way our church is viewed note only by gay Catholics or by | :39:38. | :39:44. | |
Catholics within the church but by the outside world. You know to be | :39:44. | :39:51. | |
seen as a church that is led by a man who says I'm no-one but a | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
humble servant of God, I'm not saying that gays are excluded, I'm | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
in fact recognising that gays have made a contribution to my church. I | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
think that's really important. in the secular world, when you say | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
things it is nice mood music, but you don't actually change what you | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
do, that is called spin? I'm not sure that you could ever accuse | :40:14. | :40:21. | |
this one of spin. What he's trying to say is this is an inclusive | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
church. Theologically I'm not prepared to move anything because I | :40:26. | :40:32. | |
can't, by myself. But I am embracing you. And I think that you | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
talk about mood music, gosh, if the mood in the Catholic Church could | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
improve I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think you seem to agree | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
with that. Isn't it just back to an old tradition in various Christian | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
denominations which is, you hate the sin but you love the sinner? | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
Yeah. I think there are a couple of things you have to realise. The | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
first thing is this is being seen as just a discussion of home sexual | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
acts, fundamental Christian teaches is whether you are straight or gay | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
or transgender whatever, sex is for marriage. He's not actually, I | :41:11. | :41:17. | |
think the church doesn't really pick out the gays as such. Jesus | :41:17. | :41:24. | |
never talked about gays. He is just transmitting the basic Christian | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
teaching. But it is very noticable that the language, the rhetoric, | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
the condemnation that has focused so specifically on lesbian and gay | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
people, over the last 30 years, has driven lots of people out of the | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
church. Also I think it is not only a principled stand, but it is also | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
a very traingatic stand, if the Pope were to exclude gays from the | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
Catholic Church, we would have an emptying of the Catholic Church, we | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
would have a hollowing out of Catholic culture, hospitals, | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
schools, churches themselves, and I hate to say it the Vatican too, | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
apparently. What was this gay lobby comment, which puzzled you? There | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
has been an Italian journalist who has been investigating the Vatican | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
over a period of months, and he has revelations, including bugged | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
telephone calls, which show that there is a very active lobby and | :42:19. | :42:27. | |
the head of it is allegedly gay and it is a lobby that is trying to | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
promote not gay rights campaign, but a self-promotion within the | :42:31. | :42:39. | |
Vatican. Whether any of this is true has yet to be proved. | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
Uncontestably to be proved. But what we are certain of is this Pope | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
is saying it is not because there is a gay element to this lobby that | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
I'm against them. It is the fact that there is machinations and | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
plotting which is something he doesn't like. There is a number of | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
politicians feeling the same in our own beloved country. Paul Mason has | :43:01. | :43:11. | |
been scouring the trollisphere looking for reaction to the item on | :43:11. | :43:17. | |
the Twitter and rape threats. last night and the arrest was made, | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
we have been looking at it all day, and the tapering down of overt rape | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
threats against the people involved, the MPs and campaigners. Small in | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
number, but as we saw earlier very distressed. We have had one tonight | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
an overt rape threat and death thread against an MP named. I'm not | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
going to bother reading it out, graphic, the person is taunting the | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
police or Twitter, you haven't taken my account down yet, when you | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
are going to do it. That is there. The problem is tracking them down. | :43:49. | :43:59. | |
:43:59. | :44:00. | ||
I think we had six hours of human intelligence to track our one. | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
@beware 008. That has been named by Stella Creasy as a complaint to | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
Waltham stow police. It took us six hours to try to find where he is, | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
if not identify the person. The police are up against a huge task | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
here. But the information coming from those dealing with Twitter, | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
Twitter haven't been able to speak to us. They will have to up their | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
game tomorrow? The information coming out of Twitter via third | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
party sources is Twitter don't believe the police have begun to | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
ask them for their accounts. (beep) there is another one going up there. | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
You see two institutions, one of which is deeply rooted in the on- | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
line world suddenly hit by craziness, and another one deeply | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
confused by the on-line world and yet as the papers you are about to | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
see, if that was a note Twitter, rape threat to MP, if it was a | :44:57. | :45:01. |