Browse content similar to 07/08/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Can a 13-year-old victim of sexual abuse, who looked older than her | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
age be predatory and able to egg on her abuser, according to a | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
barrister and judge involved in that case, yes. Tonight the | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
testimony of another girl accused of lying as she gave evidence about | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
her alleged abuser. I understand that they have to test | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
it and that they have to prove that they are telling the truth, but I | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
think outrightly calling someone a liar isn't proving anything. | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
So will plans for an elite panel of judges to preside over such | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
hearings protect young and vulnerable witnesses. Labour and | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
the Bar Council are here. Also tonight, after the rock star | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
build up, the new Bank of England governor gets down to work | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
promising potentially another three years of low interest rates. | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
It's bad news if you are a saver, good news if you are a home buyer, | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
very good news if you are a Chancellor. Our Olympic cyclists | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
are the envy of the world, but for the casual cyclist our roads are | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
anything but. In Holland things look very different, why? | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
Everybody's on big sit up and beg bikes, they are weaving around, | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
there is a much more relaxed feel to the way the cyclists occupy the | :01:27. | :01:35. | |
streets. We need to get that culture doing. And... # The party's | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
over The Prime Minister won't tell us | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
how many members his party has. It is as if he knows the figures | :01:43. | :01:53. | |
:01:53. | :01:55. | ||
aren't pretty. Is the party over for the political parties? Le | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
Good evening. Retch Dale, Rotherham, Oxford, where gangs of paedophiles | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
targeted young girls. Abusers were jailed, but not before the victims | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
were subjected to aggressive cross- examination by multiple barristers. | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
The Lord Chief Justice says he now wants to protect vulnerable | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
witnesses in the future. Meanwhile the Crown Prosecution Service today | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
criticised one of its own barristers for decribing a 13-year- | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
old victim of a sex attack as "predatory" and "sexually | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
experienced". The judge hearing the case echoed those comments. All | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
this means the system will change. Will it alter some people's mind | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
set. I have been talking to a 12- year-old girl who while giving | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
evidence about her alleged abuser was accused of lying. The judge | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
halted the trial when she became stressed and the case collapsed. We | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
are calling her Kate, it's not her real name. She wanted to talk to us | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
and her mother agreed. I started by asking her how she felt about the | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
prospect of giving evidence, her words are spoken for her. It was | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
really nerve racking and scary, but it wasn't, I didn't think it would | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
be too bad. Why were you nervous? Because I didn't know what to | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
expect. Had someone talked you through what might happen during | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
the course of the trial? I had been told what was going to happen. And | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
what was supposed to happen in quite a lot of detail. But I didn't | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
know, I didn't know what to expect still. Because I didn't know if | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
they were telling the truth. I didn't know if it was all the same | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
as what they had said. And whereof it that you gave evidence from? | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
where was it that you gave evidence from? I did a video in a house, I | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
don't know where it was, I can't remember. Then I did it from a | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
separate room in the court, but I was videolinked to the court. | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
there anyone in the room with you? Yeah, there was two ladies in the | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
room with me. That were with me whilst I was giving the evidence. | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
And had you been able to get to know them? I had met one of them | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
before when we went to the Crown Court room, other one I hadn't met | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
before. Why was it that you weren't able to have your mum with you, for | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
example, in that room? Because she was a witness. How did you feel | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
about the two ladies with you? were really kind and supportive. | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
When I get upset they kind of let me go out the room and they took a | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
break. They were very kind and chatty. What do you remember about | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
what the defence barrister said to you? She asked personal questions | :04:40. | :04:47. | |
like "why -- why did I have to have a bath every day and the house have | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
to be cleaned every day and personal questions about the way I | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
lived. Did you understand why she was asking those kinds of | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
questions? No, because it wasn't really related at all to any of | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
them. Did you feel you could say that to her? Not really, no.What | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
else did she say to you? She called me a liar a lot of the time. She | :05:10. | :05:19. | |
said I was lying and trying to stick up for my mum. Because, I | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
can't remember why she said it, she said I was clearly only trying to | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
stick up for my mum. How many times did she call you a liar? I don't | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
know, several, a few. What did you think of that? It really upset me | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
because I wasn't lying. To be called a liar when you're not is | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
really upsetting. What happened after she had said that? I got | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
upset and went out of the room. And then the judge came and told me | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
that I didn't have to carry on. And then they came down. I went | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
downstairs to see my mum and then about 15 minutes later they told me | :05:57. | :06:04. | |
what had happened. And why I wasn't giving any more evidence. And how | :06:04. | :06:12. | |
did that affect the case? Obviously it didn't carry on, so the case. | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
The judge halted the case did he? Yeah. Why?Because the way that I | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
was being treated by the defence barrister. So because you became so | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
upset he decided the case should stop? Yeah.Even though it meant | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
other witnesses couldn't then give their evidence because you were the | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
first witness weren't you? Yeah. The other witnesses got upset | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
because they couldn't give their evidence in court. They wanted to, | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
did they? Yeah, they had been told that once they had said what they | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
had to say it would be over and they could carry on with their | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
lives. And so they got upset because they couldn't tell their | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
story and tell their, give their evidence. Do you understand Kate | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
that sometimes barristers have to challenge and test somebody's | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
evidence because some people do tell lies? I understand that they | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
have to test it, and that they have to prove that they are telling the | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
truth but I think outrightly calling someone a liar isn't | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
proving anything. In future there are going to be special judges who | :07:21. | :07:29. | |
hear the kind of cases that you were involved in who may be able to | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
protect vulnerable witnesses like you were. What do you think of that | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
idea? I think it is a better idea because they would know how to | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
treat the children and they would know how the children are feeling | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
better than the other judges that are used. And do you think it might | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
help people like you describe what happened to you? I think it would | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
help because they would know the sort of questions to ask instead of | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
having to call somebody a liar to get the evidence. They would be | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
able to ask the sort of questions that work to get the answers they | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
need. I wonder how you think it might have helped you in your case | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
had there been one of these particular judges with this extra | :08:12. | :08:19. | |
training presiding over your case? Well it would have helped because | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
the questions wouldn't necessarily have been easier to answer, but | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
they wouldn't have been so upsetting in the way that they were. | :08:25. | :08:33. | |
So it is a good idea as far as you can see? Yeah.Can I ask you about | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
some comments the judges said about a 13-year-old sexual abuse victim, | :08:39. | :08:46. | |
he described her as "predatory" and "egging on her abuser". How do you | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
think a judge saying that to a 13- year-old girl might make her feel? | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
Well it is going to make her feel really insecure and well she | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
wouldn't want to do anything at all. Because if someone said that you | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
dressed inappropriately you wouldn't ever want to wear a dress | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
again. Because you would feel really insecure about the way you | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
looked. It would really affect you. I think. What would you say to that | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
judge? Tell him to get his act straight, sort himself out because | :09:22. | :09:31. | |
it is not fair on anybody. How do you think other young victims of | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
sexual abuse might react on hearing that he had said those things? | :09:35. | :09:43. | |
would be pretty shocked. I know I would. Because it's really damaging | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
for someone to hear those sorts of things from someone so important. | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
You gave evidence a number of years ago now, how are you now? I'm fine | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
now, I have got through it really well. But there is obviously still | :10:01. | :10:08. | |
things that still come up now. Even after two, three years. But I'm | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
fine, I feel fine. Kate, thank you very much for | :10:12. | :10:19. | |
talking to me. Thank you for having With me now Maura McGowan QC chair | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
of the Bar Council in England and Wales that represents barristers | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
and Sadiq Khan, the Shadow Justice Secretary who was a human rights | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
solicitor before entering parliament. Welcome both of you. | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
First of all, how do you react to the way Kate was treated? She's a | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
very impressive young woman. She summed up two of the most important | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
issues actually she understands that evidence in the sort of case | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
she was involved in has to be tested, but Sheehy quillly | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
understands that calling somebody a liar over and over again is no way | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
of cross-examining anybody. You don't establish anything by doing | :10:52. | :11:00. | |
that. Is there a way of challenging the evidence without using the word | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
"liar" or decribing someone as that? Yes, depending on the age and | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
understanding of the young women or young person. There is different | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
ways of doing it, but shouting at somebody or repeatedly call them a | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
Loire isn't a way of achieving anything. Why does it happen then? | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
I suspect quite often because people haven't got as much training | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
or experience as they should have when they do these very delicate | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
and sensitive cases. It is worth noting that I think about 30% of | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
all trials in England at the moment are allegations of sexual impro- | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
priority. Not all with children, mostly with adults, that is the | :11:36. | :11:46. | |
:11:46. | :11:51. | ||
volume of cases going through. Kate's reaction to the prosecuting | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
barrister decribing another victim as "predatory" and "sexually | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
experienced" might that stop other young victims speaking out? | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
Absolutely, if you speak to victims' group as I do, there is | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
already huge concern about the way victims and witnesses are treated. | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
This case this week and Kate's case is not the only two I have heard | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
about. It is the culture that needs changing, lawyers today, judges | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
today and the CPS are better trained than ever before. The | :12:21. | :12:29. | |
practice is very different, glad ditoral and aggressive. Victims if | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
they lose confidence in the criminal justice system they will | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
stop coming forward and taking part in trials. And witnesses will think | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
what is the point, and that is bad news for us, offenders will | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
continue to repeat owe fences because they are not being brought | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
to book. Can we talk about culture, Maura McGowan, is there a | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
generational prejudice towards victims of child abuse? I don't | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
think there is. How do you explain the comment of the judge and | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
prosecuting barrister? Given the reaction we have seen today and | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
yesterday which is massive, this is the first or second item on every | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
news programme all day, that is an indication that this is not common | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
place, this does not happen every trial. How many other ignorant of | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
the legal profession are there who think a victim bears some | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
responsibility for the abuse? was said should not have been said. | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
Just those two? No, no. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that at | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
all, there are cases that need to be done better, I accept that. But | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
equally it is clear isn't it that the vast majority of cases are done | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
properly. Can I just say, I'm sure that's right, but you just have to | :13:40. | :13:48. | |
remember what Milly Douler's father said when he was cross-examined by | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
Levi Bellfield's barrister at the trial, he felt it was almost as bad | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
as the day and weeks after his daughter had died. You remember | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
Francis Andredie the professional violinists, who according to her | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
husband killed herself because of the way she was treated. Judges | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
have to step in and protect witnesses. Defence barristers must | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
fearlessly defend their clients, but there is a way of doing so | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
without intimidating and putting off future victims. Of course | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
judges can step in, but they don't, despite the training, the | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
comprehensive training they receive for these particular cases? Many | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
are ex-barristers except for a few exceptions. There is this macho | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
culture whereby you some how impress the gallery by being tough. | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
We have to look at the way we train and recruit judges, it last to | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
change. It has to be a mainstream issue not just where 13-year-old | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
children are involved. You smiled when he said "macho culture? | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
don't accept that, the vast majority of barristers who do these | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
cases are women. People tend to instruct women to do these case, | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
there isn't a macho culture, judges are sensitive and conscious of what | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
the public gallery thinks of them? This extra training these elite | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
judges will get, suggests there is something missing from the | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
"comprehensive training" that they already get? The panel of elite | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
judges being set up now will be trained specially to deal with the | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
complex sexual abuse cases so, the grooming cases, where you have | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
seven, eight defendants, you have any number of witnesses and victims, | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
these cases require special management skills and that's the | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
panel that is going to be set up to deal with those sorts of complex | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
cases. The judges are already trained to deal with sexual | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
offences, it is not perfect, I don't pretend it is, but it is | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
infinitely better than it used to be and it is getting better all the | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
time. I accept the last point except I say the panel of judges | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
won't have dealt with this week's case or the vineist cases or the | :15:54. | :16:01. | |
murder of Milly Douler, unless you change the culture in all the | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
courts why should witnesses bother to report a crime or as a witness | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
come forward and give evidence if this is how they will be treated. | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
The new judges, the elite judges, the panel, are they going to be | :16:12. | :16:21. | |
able to step in and stop the cross- examination a number of times | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
because there are a number of defendants represented by multiple | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
barristers? The plan is, and the Government is looking at | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
introducing a section on the books for a long time, where cross- | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
examination is done in advance of the trial, it is not done in a | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
courtroom. The witnesses or victims don't see the defendants. That's | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
being done as a pilot in three areas at the moment. But the panel | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
of judges that have been chosen and set up are going to have very | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
different powers. They will always have ground rules hearings in these | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
cases, they will say at the start right there are six of you, there | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
aren't going to be six cross- examinations, or if there are they | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
will only be of a certain length, you will deal with one topic you | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
with another. They won't step in during the trial, I hope, because | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
the rules will have been laid down in advance. Thank you very much | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
both of you. After months of hype, more | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
befitting the release of a Hollywood blockbuster, the new | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
Governor of the Bank of England, Patrick Karnezis, made his first | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
public pronouncements today in the more prosaic -- Patrick Karnezis | :17:29. | :17:38. | |
made his first public pronouncements to the prosaic | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
gallery. What has he to say? inflation goes too high the Bank of | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
England has to put up trrds to bring it back to target -- interest | :17:48. | :17:57. | |
rates to bring it back to target. They have said they will not put | :17:58. | :18:06. | |
interest rates up from Boca bottom until inflation falls below 7%, | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
because they don't think unemployment will do that for three | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
years, those who borrow can be fairly sure that interest rates, | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
base rates are going to stay as they are for at least two years. | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
The aim is we go out and borrow and the housing market ticks up a bit. | :18:25. | :18:32. | |
How cast iron is that guarantee from Mr Carney? It is not, he has | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
three caveats, one is if inflation looks in the medium term like it | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
will be 2.5%, another one if there are rising expectations of | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
inflation, so wages outstripping inflation, you get this leapfrog | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
effect. Also if another part of the Bank of England sees a bubble | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
occuring as a result of this housing boom that we all expect to | :18:54. | :19:01. | |
take place. Now first thing has to be said about that is this 2.5% | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
thing, it sounds well it could have been easily 2.5% inflation. The | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
Bank of England have some great economists who all seem to draw | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
graphs that end up nicely normal in the medium term. So look in the end, | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
what he is basically doing is saying unless unemployment falls I | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
will keep interest rates static, there are these caveats, he's | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
saying to the markets and the markets in this case are us, home | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
buyers or savers, you decide which bit you think I'm going to do and | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
the end result of that will be that I think most people psychologically | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
will hear the big promise, interest rates are static and not hear the | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
caveats and the result will be greater confidence. But not for | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
savers? For savers it is transparently not very good. I mean | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
the mathematics are if you are putting your money into the bank, | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
so saving it as cash, then inflation is eating it away, pause | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
the interest rates, as any savers know are almost zero and inflation | :20:00. | :20:07. | |
is above that. So he was trying to sell it to people on the long-term | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
that savers want the economy to be all right. This is what he said. | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
The best thing for savers is a strong economy, ultimately a strong | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
economy will bring higher interest rates. You see that to some extent | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
at longer interest rates moving up as the data proved entirely | :20:23. | :20:31. | |
appropriate. The second thing is to recognise that, and when I talk to | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
saver, savers care about their children and grandchildren, they | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
care their employed, they care about neighbours and friends, this | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
is ultimately about getting the whole of the economy moving forward | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
in a way that rewards work, savings and that ensures the last thing | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
that is obviously incredibly important for savers is that | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
inflation comes back to that 2% target so they make real returns on | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
their savings. What could be wrong with that, if you are a saver, of | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
course, the short-term thing, the jam tomorrow is fine, but the | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
short-term thing is you are losing money. One of the side-effects of | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
what he has done today is to say explicitly to savers, if you want | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
to live on your savings or get an income on it you have to move your | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
money somewhere else, as the experts are clear about today. | :21:14. | :21:21. | |
billion went into cash ISAs alone despite low interest rates, | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
essentially that means while we all need cash for a rainy day, people | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
holding cash in case they lose their job, but holding cash for | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
long periods of time you are actually losing money in real terms. | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
Ultimately what has to happen is people need to start flushing some | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
money out of cash and put into riskier assets to keep them ahead | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
of inflation. The big picture, what is Mark Carney trying to do? | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
Bank of England governors Mervyn King before him, they are balancing | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
a huge unprecedented austerity programme that takes money out of | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
the economy with pumping money into the economy through quanative | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
easing, through low interest rates and now through this called forward | :22:06. | :22:16. | |
:22:16. | :22:18. | ||
guidance. They are also something else, He is doing something else, | :22:18. | :22:24. | |
he is saying savers you will lose your money relative to inflation, | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
in all those who borrowed can be relieved. Mr Mark Carney is doing | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
his best to make that happen in the UK as it has happened all around | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
the world. A year ago British cyclists were | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
sweeping the board at the Olympic Velodrome and it definitely | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
inspired more people to swap four wheels for two, yet British roads | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
remain some of the most dangerous in Europe for cyclists. Just across | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
the North Sea lies a cycling utopia, the Netherlands, our countries | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
aren't that different, so what are the Dutch doing right and what are | :22:56. | :23:04. | |
we doing wrong? We sent the BBC's Hague correspondent out on her | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
Omafiets, the Netherland's popular grandma bike to seek an answer on a | :23:09. | :23:19. | |
:23:19. | :23:21. | ||
200-mile journey from the Hague to London. It is history, it is a | :23:21. | :23:31. | |
:23:31. | :23:32. | ||
legacy, it is knowledge. It is fast, cheap and healthy. | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
really have a totally different culture, we have a long way to go | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
before we have the same mentality about cycling. That is what I want | :23:39. | :23:49. | |
:23:49. | :23:50. | ||
to achieve. A lot of cyclists are totally irresponsible. Her life was | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
just starting as far as I was concerned, so many things were | :23:53. | :24:00. | |
opening up and then she was dead. There's no doubt the Dutch have | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
created some of the most coveted bike-safe streets in the world. | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
More than half of all trips in cities like the Hague are made by | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
bike, but the question is, would all of this work for somewhere like | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
the UK? We are on a mission from the Dutch parliament to Westminster | :24:19. | :24:29. | |
:24:29. | :24:32. | ||
to find out if Britain could and should be doing Dutch? Dutch | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
society is geared around the bike, but the Netherlands hasn't always | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
looked this way. Amsterdam is a paradise for cyclists mainly | :24:42. | :24:48. | |
because there are no hills to climb. In the 1950s and 1960s cyclists | :24:48. | :24:58. | |
:24:58. | :24:59. | ||
were squeezed to the kerb as car ownership rocket. The rise in oil | :24:59. | :25:08. | |
prices in the 1970s shook the trust in cars. Then there was a campaign | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
for safety after more than 400 children were killed on the roads. | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
In this university city electronic counters outside the parking spaces | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
at the train station register how many spaces are available. There is | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
room for 10,000 bikes. Cyclists are accommodated here in exactly the | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
same way as motorists are elsewhere. This is the city square, it used to | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
be like any other town, full of parked cars. Today Dutch | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
campaigners like Marc are actively trying to encourage the Brits to | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
adopt the Dutch system. What is the translation of it, how can we sell | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
it and design what the Dutch have in a way that can be incorporated | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
in the British situation? There is a lot going on there. It is all in | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
the transition. I hear many excuses or myths about what makes the Dutch | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
supposedly so different or the Netherlands. There are more | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
similarities than differences. It is not about the climate, it is the | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
same. Flat it would be Amsterdams all over the world for that | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
argument. It is not that, it is about making a choice and | :26:13. | :26:21. | |
prioritising what you want. In the Netherlands cyclists are | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
treated with extra care, dedicated traffic signals, crossings and | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
parking spaces make for extremely smooth ride. One of the many | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
reasons it is so popular is that the infrastructure is integrated | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
and intuitive. You won't see much special gear or preparation here. | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
The smaller you are the more protected you are. And that is | :26:43. | :26:52. | |
written into the rules of the road. Now time for our great Newsnight | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
cycle to commence. A chance to experience a bit of bike life on | :26:57. | :27:07. | |
:27:07. | :27:13. | ||
the other side. The roads and cycle paths are wide enough for people to | :27:13. | :27:23. | |
cycle along comfortably side-by- side. Newsnight's producer and | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
acting Sherpa Hannah can catch up and help guide us along towards the | :27:26. | :27:36. | |
:27:36. | :27:42. | ||
ferry. Tell me about the routes? | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
Sunrise on deck and time to check twit for some last-minute advice on | :27:46. | :27:54. | |
how to cycle UK-style. No sign of any cycle paths to guide us, and | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
when they do appear an early indication there may be some | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
obstacles ahead. Through the countryside though it | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
is not so bad. But this is TV and we do have some interviews to get | :28:07. | :28:17. | |
to. So cheating slightly! The Dutch bike is taking a bit of adapting to | :28:17. | :28:26. | |
British trains and there is no special place for them on board. | :28:26. | :28:33. | |
And then we hit London the cycle superhighways, London's big idea | :28:33. | :28:41. | |
for giving cyclists their own space. London's self-styled psyche ing | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
superhero d cycling superhero sees Dutch culture as part of the | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
solution for reducing congestion. They have a totally different | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
culture of cycling, we have to get that. When you cycle in Amsterdam | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
or Copenhagen or Berlin you are not in a great fleet of people with | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
their heads down wearing lycra who feel they have to get from A to B | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
as fast as possible. Everyone is on big bike, they are weaving around, | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
there is a much more relaxed feel to the way the psychists occupy the | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
streets. We need to get that culture going. That is why we are | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
doing the mini-Hollands. I believe in segregation where it is possible | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
to do, but we don't have, in the centre of London, particularly, we | :29:27. | :29:36. | |
don't have enough road space to concecrate entirely to cyclists. | :29:36. | :29:43. | |
Taking a slight detour off the main route towards Westminster, we enter | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
an emerging cycling culture, that seems to resemble the Dutch style. | :29:47. | :29:54. | |
It is not just the lycra lads here. Across the UK there are signs the | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
Dutch dream is starting to be recognised. On Hackney high street | :29:58. | :30:07. | |
:30:08. | :30:12. | ||
they have turned it into a bikes- only zone. It is happening in | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
London, changes are happening, people are embracing cycling so | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
much more as a cultural part of London too, which is a fantastic | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
thing to see it being embraced. It isn't just cycling in the | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
netherlands, cycling in London bad, we are nowhere near perfect, but we | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
are nowhere near absolutely hidious as well. We are in a strange | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
inbetween place in London in cycling at the moment. | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
Even if cycling culture is starting to change, many drivers still see | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
cyclists as some kind of aggressive tribe. There is not much that gets | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
under my skin, but sometimes when you see them going through | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
crossings when there is women pushing prams, it is crazy. Others | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
say it is not in the country's interest to give more space or | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
financial support to cyclists. think Boris's plans for spending | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
more on cycling is bonkers. Cycling is one of the most dangerous | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
occupations you can undertake, you should realise that and that's why | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
if you have any sense you get off your bike and actually use public | :31:23. | :31:29. | |
transport or buy a car. They are becoming a very pushy minority | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
group. You don't get that from motorists who are much better | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
behaved generally. Everyone agrees it's going to take more than blue | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
paint. Redesigning the roads is not just about creating beautiful | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
segregated spaces in places like London's Hyde park. We're going to | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
reclaim the city for the bike. We are spending a billion over the | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
next den years to make London cycling much more cyclist-friendly, | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
much more like Amsterdam. We are not going to be Amsterdam any time | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
soon, it took them 40 years to become Amsterdam, but we are going | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
to be a lot further towards it than we were. | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
1232 cyclists were killed in the UK last -- 123 psychists were killed | :32:12. | :32:19. | |
in the UK last year, more don cyclists were killed in the UK last | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
year, more than soldiers killed. This is the eight year in the row | :32:23. | :32:32. | |
the figures have increased. Even those who have had the worst | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
imaginable experiences are still actively promoting a greater | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
British cycling culture. She was cycling to work going straight | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
ahead, a lorry who was turning left turned left across her path and she | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
was killed instantly. Do you encourage more people to take to | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
their bikes even after your own experience? Yes, definitely. That | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
is the only way to go. There are so many arguments in favour of cycling. | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
We are going to need to think radically about how we deal with | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
the reality that there are going to be many, many cyclists and many | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
more pedestrians. The next person we meet on route to Westminster is | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
Ron ka, this CCTV footage shows the moment just before she was hit by | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
that lorry. This is the marble arch, I was here, they closed behind me | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
and clipped my wheel from the back and dragged me all the way across | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
down the Edgeware Road path. It is easy to think it is not going to | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
happen to you, you hear these things on the news all the time. As | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
with my case I thought it wouldn't happen to me but it does. Be | :33:38. | :33:47. | |
careful. Back on our bikes and time for the | :33:47. | :33:57. | |
:33:57. | :34:03. | ||
final approach. We made it, trustee Dutch bike and I and the crew | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
survived the journey. Back over in the netherlands they are spending | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
�30 per person on cycling, here in the UK that figure is �2.22, you | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
can feel the difference. On the 2nd of September the all-party | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
parliamentary cycling group will be inside here telling David Cameron | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
to increase that figure to at least �10 per person. This is being seen | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
as the politicians' opportunity to support the British cycling | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
revolution. As if by magic the day after our | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
journey ended this part of the UK really did resemble a cycling | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
utopia. 15,000 cyclists from across the UK descended on the capital for | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
Ride London, the biggest cycling event the country has ever seen. It | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
is relatively easy to organise a single weekend though, the real | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
challenge for the UK will be in making cycling a sustainable and | :35:00. | :35:08. | |
integrated part of the whole culture. Who wants to join a | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
political party? Hardly anyone. About 1% of the electorate is a | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
paid up member of one of the three main Westminster parties. SNP and | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
Green Party membership is on the up from a low base, and UKIP are | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
thought to have around 30,000 activists. What is it for someone | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
who signs up and pays their subs. We have been to Clacton-on-Sea | :35:32. | :35:39. | |
where the Tory membership is up 60% in two years. | :35:39. | :35:47. | |
This stands no chance. Up against this. Filing cabinets ditched for | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
guilded pianos, the pot plant neglected for topiary. Have you | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
seen the afternoon tea you can get at their properties. No, they are | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
not that lavish, but none the less, the National Trust has boomed while | :36:00. | :36:10. | |
:36:10. | :36:29. | ||
Most European countries have seen a decline in membership since the | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
1980s, Britain's levels of membership are, however, among the | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
lowest. As a percentage of the electorate it is only lower in | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
Poland and Latvia. But in France and Germany it is not that much | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
higher than us. Newsnight can reveal that President Obama's | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
campaign manager is now joining the Conservatives' 2015 general | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
election team. Newsnight broke this story, but now | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
many are asking this question, the Tories may have hired another | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
general, but where will be his foot soldiers? | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
Influential activists' website, Conservative Home is looking to | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
know exactly how many Tory members there are, right now nobody knows. | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
We are told that the figures suggest rumours of the figures that | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
we get that the membership is anywhere between 130,000 and | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
100,000. There has been a fall. I think what this may suggest is that | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
membership on the current model isn't sustainable. Whether it does | :37:29. | :37:36. | |
or not, I think revealing these figures would be like going to the | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
doctor if you know you have a problem. The experience is | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
unpleasant but you have to do it. We are in Clacton on sea where one | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
MP thinks that old party management is dead as a dod dough, and it is | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
like the music store -- dodo, it is like HMV, we all know what happened | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
to that. Instead you have to move to something like Spotify, I will | :37:58. | :38:06. | |
let him explain. Welcome to the future of politics. You will have | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
to explain your Spotify thesis for viewers? Spotify is a wonderful new | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
way of selling music to people. It allows them to go on-line and | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
listen to what they want when they want. It puts them in control. We | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
need to sell politics that way and sell politics on-line. We need to | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
allow people to have control. We need it allow them different tiers | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
of membership. Unfortunate low we are still doing politics like it is | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
1950 something, we are doing it in buildings like this and wondering | :38:32. | :38:39. | |
why we are haemorrhaging membership. Look think, it is our -- look at | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
this, this is our next flyer. But take a look at it, where do you see | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
the Tory Party, let alone the logo, there isn't one. What is the theme? | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
"wake up Westminster", it is a different way of doing politics, | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
there is not a whiff of Tory boy about t there is no lecturing of | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
people, we want people to come as they are. We want people to | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
recognise that in a room with 100 people you will get far more than | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
100 opinions on any one topic. happened was I wanted to go to | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
university to study politics and international relations. So I | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
messaged and Digaoed who the local -- googled who the local MP was and | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
I found him, and I messaged him on twit, and I asked was there any way | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
to come and have a chat about politics and make sure it was what | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
I wanted to do. I tweeted him, he tweeted me back, which was a | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
surprise. It just sort of went from there. You don't think if twit | :39:38. | :39:45. | |
didn't exist and Facebook, and e- mail -- twit didn't exist you would | :39:45. | :39:53. | |
have gotten on the door and been old fashioneded? You think of | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
politician -- fashioned? You think of politicians as being | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
intimidating to approach, through Twitter you realise they are | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
ordinary people and they are helping and making the country a | :40:03. | :40:12. | |
better place if they can do it. other parties are aware of the | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
disengagment, the Liberal Democrats have used software used in | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
President Obama's election campaign, allowing them to Taylor canvasing | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
to individuals. In the last few years -- tailor canvasing to | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
different individual. Labour are changing too? We help people to | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
take action on things that matter to them in their local communities. | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
We realise just because Labour is out of Government it doesn't mean | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
it is out of power. And that by working with people, whether they | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
are Labour members or not we make ourselves more relevent to them on | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
things they really care about. Politicians all seem to believe the | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
future lies in action, not words. Consensus, a rare thing from | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
politicians. What about other solutions to | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
boosting membership of our political parties. To discuss I'm | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
joined from Ipswich by the MP you saw in the film, and Labour peer | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
and academic, Morris Glassman. First of all, before we hear your | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
solutions, what does a Labour Party member get for �44.52 a year? | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
the whole the minutes from the last meeting. Is that it? The minutes | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
from the last meeting? I think the party is changing and it has to. | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
You can vote in local constituencies, but the thing with | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
Labour it is a bit different from the Conservatives, we have got a | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
bit of a problem with capitalism, and we believe that the Labour | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
Party is an important part of the solution to that of people getting | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
together. We have toffee-paying, due-paying members in order to have | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
MPs to stand up to the domination of the banks. What do you get as a | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
Conservative Party member for �25 a year? Not a great deal, it is not a | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
very attractive retail proposition, which is why we are haemorrhaging | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
members. People in a sense pay �25 in order to be invited to come to a | :42:01. | :42:07. | |
lot of very costly dinners. I think we can do politics differently. If | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
we are looking to aggregate votes and opinion, we can do it in a very, | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
very different way rather than running a series of dining clubs in | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
the south-east of England. Labour has around just under 200,000 | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
members, how many members does a political party need to be viable | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
across the UK do you think? I think the crucial thing and the | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
discussion I would like to have with Douglas is that it is not | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
really about a retail proposition, this is the way we govern ourselves. | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
This is self-governance and I think the crucial thing is relationships, | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
power, action. Politics is great and what we have to do is develop | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
leaders from our local communities from our constituencies, they have | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
to be able to campaign on the issues that they can agree and care | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
about. Then they have to learn from it. We have to be much more | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
tolerant of local failure and getting things right. With the | :42:58. | :43:07. | |
party we used to have Ernest Bevan who never went to school, the | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
movement was the teacher. We have forgotten about politics, politics | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
is great. It is movement from the grassroots and the ground, do you | :43:15. | :43:23. | |
agree Douglas? I do, I think it matters enormously if parties | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
shrivel, if they exist only on paper as many Conservative | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
Associations it is the case, what you ent up is a remote clique in | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
Westminster who -- end up with a remote clique in Westminster who | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
run the party with a few local franchises, and people feel | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
disenaged. We can, if we run around the world see better ways of | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
running party, look at the Five Star movement in Italy, it is web- | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
based, one in four Italians voted for it. We need to look at that and | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
work out how to turn party politics in this country on its head. | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
Instead of it being run from Westminster create political | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
parties are insurgent movements against the Westminster elite. | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
sounds like you are saying there is no link between your Conservative | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
Party members and the leadership, is that why the members are falling | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
off the cliff, not literally? know one of the reasons why I think | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
people aren't joining us, what do you get for it? Do you get to | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
decide policy? No, the elite decide that. Do you get to decide who is | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
the chairman of the party? No, that is the prerogative of one | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
individual. You get to decide the leader, that is pretty crucial? | :44:35. | :44:43. | |
Yeah. You do, once hopefully not very often. There is a strong | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
argument to say back in the 1980s and 1970s as a mass membership | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
organisation, had you had a voice, you could have a conference that | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
was by the members rather than by big corporate lobby-vested | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
interests that price the ordinary members out of attendance. Do you | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
want to go back to the 1970s and 1980s? I have real afx for the 70s | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
not really -- affectioned for the 70s, not really the 80s. It can't | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
be this is about changes in rules, there is a new politics coming, a | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
new politics that wants local power, that wants to have some control | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
over their lives. Does Ed Miliband know there is a new politics coming, | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
what is the disconnect there between the grassroots andership? | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
have to give -- Leadership?I have to give Ed Miliband kudos on this, | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
he has accepted there has to be radical culture change and | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
political change. You can't get people involved in something that | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
is meaningless, people want power and some control. If it is, I think | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
it is parallel between the two parties, seven or eight people | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
making the decisions, people are rightfully disengaged and kind of | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
really disenchanted with that. There is a big change coming, it is | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
not just procedural it is political. Do you think it is overly defensive | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
of the Conservative Party not to tell people how many members you | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
have got? I think it is maybe a little bit like those banks that | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
don't want to reveal their balance sheet because there is bad news | :46:03. | :46:10. | |
lurking there. I think we should fess up. I'm happy to say how many | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
members my association has, it is when we are frank and honest is | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
when we start to do something about it. The party nationally has to | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
fess up and publish on Conservative Home how many ballot papers were | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
sent out. I suspect it will be horrific and lower than 100,000. | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
But if something is bad, if you face up to it you can start to fix | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
it. We are starting to fix it in my constituency, only because we have | :46:35. | :46:41. | |
acknowledged quite how bad things have become. | :46:41. | :46:51. | |
:46:51. | :47:19. | ||
That's it for tonight. Kirsty will clearing away. What we will find | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
tomorrow morning is a chilly start, temperatures in single figures in | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
the countryside. Misand fog. The cloud building more into the | :47:28. | :47:38. | |
:47:38. | :47:44. | ||
afternoon. That for Northern Sharp downpours but dry inbetween. | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
In northern England more showers, heavy one, slow-moving, possibly a | :47:48. | :47:54. | |
rumble of thunder. For parts of East Anglia where there was more | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
cloud around, it is prieter with a few showers, warm in the sunshine. | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
We will start to find that weather front creeping across the Irish Sea | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
to approach Wales. It will hold off the shower activity through this | :48:08. | :48:18. | |
:48:18. | :48:28. |