14/08/2013 Newsnight

Egyptian security forces claim be to be safeguarding the state. We'll

hear live from Cairo and ask the Foreign Office if it's on the side

of the army or the Muslim Brotherhood. Also tonight: Here, in

the privacy of our homes, very large numbers of us are watching

pornography. Make me believe it. There is something absurd about

porn, yet it is consumed in deadly seriousness. How is it changing and

what is it doing to us and the way we and our children think and act?

We have porn enthusiasts, producers and critics with us. It is a long

way short of civil war, but in some respects what's happening in the

most important country in the Arab world begins to look as if it has

the potential to go that way. The internationally respected

Vice-President, Mohamed El Baradei, walked out of the government today

in protest at the bloodshed by Egyptian forces in trying to clear

supporters of the ousted former President from the streets. The

health ministry says nearly 150 people have been killed and over

1,400 injured. Let us go to Cairo now and talk to the BBC's Middle

East editor, Jeremy Bowen. What is the mood in Cairo tonight, Jeremy?

have driven through the city in the last hour or so. I can tell you

there is a curfew, but people are moving around. As you get closer

into the centre there are more military roadblocks. Journalists are

able to move around in the area. There is a dispensation for us. I

think that the thing about Egypt at the moment is that it's highly

divided, it's very polarised, that is something which is a huge

problem, not just for now, but for the future. Both sides are saying

that the future of Egypt is at stake. Both sides are right. They

have very different conceptions of what that future needs to be.

there an obvious way out? No, there isn't. What they need to do is try

to get together and try and decide the way forward and try and decide

on some kind of nation national consensus. I don't see how they do

that when people are being killed on the streets. What we are seeing at

the moment is a consequence of the winner takes all politics of Egypt

in the last couple of years. President Morsi was in offers,

before he was ousted said he would govern for all Egyptians, but really

governed for his supporters. The army and their supporters say they

want to restore democracy. They have acted with such ferocity that, you

know, they clearly want to remove the Muslim Brotherhood as a

political force in the country. That has been tried before in the 40s and

the 50s when they were, 40s the Muslim Brotherhood had a campaign of

violence, in the 50s NASA pretty much destroyed their network. It

took them a long time to recover. Out of all that came not just the

Muslim Brotherhood, which has been governing in Egypt, the extreme

jihadist ideologies that culminated in Al-Qaeda. What we are seeing at

the moment, I think, will really shape the way things go in Egypt

over the next generation. If it is shaping Egypt, it will help to shape

the Middle East as well. Jeremy, thank you very much. With the story

of today's events in Cairo and where it leaves Egypt's slow struggle

towards becoming a functioning democracy Tim Whewell. Today was the

day pa the patients of Egypt's new military backed authorities snapped.

From 7.00 am interior ministry forces moved in with bulldozers to

demolish the protest camp set up six weeks ago by supporters of the

deposed Islamist President, Mohamed Morsi. There were tanks with special

vehicles in the streets around the main camp in western Cairo, but

thick clouds of black smoke hid much of what happened beyond. Earlier in

the day, the security forces insisted they were only using

teargas, but many witnesses reported seeing them fire live bullets at

protesters. People are being make-shift field hospitals on Rabaa

al-Adawiya Square, the Brotherhood claims thousands have been killed.

The official death toll was much lower, it rose throughout the day.

By late evening, the Health Ministry gave a total of 149 dead, among them

a British cameraman for Sky News, Mick Dean. They moved in and from

the moment that they moved in, they started using teargas and shooting

very quickly. This was a use of force from the very beginning to

break up the sit-in. I think the decision was also taken to move in

with maximum force and this riot police does not know how to use

force proportionally, do not know how to use live ammunition in a

legal manner which is only targeting individuals who present a risk to

the lives of the security forces. It's in the name of these people

that the riot police have acted against the Brotherhood. The vast

crowds that filled Tahrir Square and other Egyptian streets six weeks ago

demanding the departure of Mohamed Morsi even though he was

democratically-elected a year before. Since his over throw the new

authorities installed by the army have launched a propaganda museum

that have convinced many the Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist

organisation. State television showed footage of protesters firing

on security forces. The authorities say guns and ammunition were found

not been proved they indulged in any terrorism. It was the same firm line

tonight from the Interior Minister. TRANSLATION: There is plans. There

will be plans we will face arms with arms. There won't be any

self-restraint from now on. Not all in the anti-Morsi camp believed that

today's bloodshed was justified. One of the Egypt's most respected

politicians, Mohamed El Baradei, prominent in the 2011 revolution,

resigned as interim Vice-President today in protest. The United States,

which gives the Egyptian military $1.5 billion a year, was equally

shocked. Today's events are deplorable and they run counter to

Egyptian aspirations for peace, inclusion and genuine democracy.

Egyptians inside and outside of the government need to take a step back.

They need to calm the situation. clashes involving Morsi supporters

broke out today in the second city, Alexandria, and elsewhere in the

country, the chances of reconciliation seem slim. This sort

of violence will provide some justification, if you like, for the

army to get more involved in the name of restoring security. That

might be enough to keep the army popular, but I don't think they have

that long to go on with this and retain international support.

Tonight, the remains of the main Brotherhood camp was still ablaze as

the authorities imposed a month-long state of emergency. Many will

conclude that the security forces, acting in the name of the

revolution, have brought Egypt back dangerously close to how it was

under the old dictatorship. Here now is the Foreign Office Minister,

Alistair Burt. I take it the British government condemns what happened

today? Yes, the Foreign Secretary put out a statement this morning

condemning the use of force to clear the protests. We deeply regretted

the failure of the attempts at compromise over the past month. The

tran di-is what happened today could have been avoided. Does the British

government consider the government in Egypt legitimate? We work with

it. It clearly has a degree of authority. It can't be denied that

the population in Egypt is deeply polarised, there are millions of

people who support the government. Equally, there are large numbers who

do not. We work - we have a relationship with the state, not a

government. We consider it a legitimate government? Yes, we

probably do in that it is operating there, but it has set a timetable

for a transition to democracy. We have said that the military should

not be intervening in a democratic situation. In a sense, we are where

we are. Mohamed El Baradei says the only people who will benefit from

today's action are terrorists and extremists? Do you share that view?

He has a serious point. The danger of making it clear to those who have

a belief in moderate political Islam they should not be taking part in

the political process is of course they feel excluded and there are

risks. What we don't know is whether or not what will follow, what has

happened today, will be an attempt to bring in the Muslim Brotherhood

or bring them back into political process. If there is an attempt to

exclude them completely Mr El Baradei's comments are highly

pertinent. Do you think there is a danger of civil war in Egypt?

think it would be wrong from this distance to say that something like

that is likely to happen. Clearly, the situation is exceptionally

polarised and people are deeply split. What we have seen is the

violence encouraged today has -- incurred today has moved elsewhere.

We will plead with all those with responsibilities to be restrained,

to ease the violence down. Could it, it could, but I think we are some

distance away from that yet. have been out there? Yes, recently.

Have you spoken to the Muslim Brotherhood? Yes.Have you spoken to

the army? Does it seem like a stable place? It's a deeply fractured

place. You have the Muslim Brotherhood who feel that power has

been unfairly ripped from them. You have a population supporting a

military intervention, who believe that order was restored from a

failing government. What you don't have is an express of popular will

through a ballot box to give a serious sense of legitmacy and a way

forward. Unless there is a compromise between the two blocks

the violence will probably continue. It has been six weeks since the

military seized power have we decided whether a coup was staged?

We haven't really. In a sense you don't need to be dancing about on

the head of a pin. There has been military intervention. Has it been

without popular support? No. It has had popular support. It does not

have the legitmacy that a democratically-elected government

would have. They came to restore order. They wanted to see a

transition. What we have seen today has set back that process. What is

the problem with calling it a coup? It sounds like a coup? There isn't a

problem with calling a coup. If you believe coup is about a group of

generals, no politicians anywhere - The military always claim, when they

stage a coup they always claim to have popular support, don't they?

From the millions in the street that has some backing. That isn't the

point. It's where Egypt is going and whether what is happening now is in

anyway contributing to a democratic future. If the political process is

to be damaged by trying to drive one section of it completely away and

the violence today will not have helped in that process, then you

worry about where Egypt is going. What the new government have got to

demonstrate is that there is a path way - Where do you think Egypt is

going? I don't think at this stage, honestly tonight, anyone knows.

Jeremy put it clearly in terms of a battle for the soul of Egypt. That

is going on. You asked at the beginning of the titles whose side

are the British government on? We are on the side of the Egyptian

people. We have to support the Egyptian people p in finding a path

way back to democracy that involves us in engaging with all politicians

as we have been doing relentlessly over the past few weeks to prevent

the tragedy that happened today. It's a tragedy that wasn't

successful. Thank you very much. When did you last watch pornography?

There are perhaps some adults in Britain who have never seen any.

It's ubiquity or the ubiquity of access to the internet means it is

in some form or other available day or night in the privacy of anyone's

home. Here, sometimes for free, more often for than paying for it you can

watch people you have never met doing the most intimate of things

for the delectation of their viewers. What their viewers is best

not thought about. What effect is all this exposure having upon us and

upon our children? We will discuss that shortly with our assembled

shelve magazines, things have changed. When the internet was fast

enough to carry video it's not just the scale of porn consumption that

rocketed but what is in the videos is changing fast. Action.You don't

need much to shoot an adult movie. For Laura Macrow, one of Britain's

pop porn directors it's the car park of her studio on the edge of

Birmingham. Turn around.Laura shoots for TV and for big named porn

brands in America. Half the job is tailoring the content to meet

specific rules and regulations. is nice. Make me believe it. Over

the years it has certainly changed in terms of we have to keep it tame.

We have to consider the regulatory rules, everybody has a perception as

to how they see something. We can't do anything that is aggression.

Anything that would be harmful to an individual. You know, so obviously

sometimes in adult movies that has appeared to be the case. It's

actually not. Everything is consensual and above board. Large

amounts of porn are now available free because of the so-called tube

sites where, with no age warnings, you can click straight through to

hardcore video and that is not regulated because it is based

offshore. What you do you you create a massive massively (inaudible)

which is free. You get visitors coming to your website. You upsell

them premium versions of that service for $20 or �20 a month

whatever. It's in the past five or six years you had the ex-edges

sploegs in free porn the producer cans see quickly what the consumers

want and produce more of it. Research on recent content is

scarce. In a 2005 study of the 60 top selling DVDs, 304 scenes were

analysed 88% contained physical aggression, a woman being spanked,

forced to gag or being slapped. 49% contained verbal aggression. Targets

were most often depicted as liking or ignoring the aggression. The most

recent evidence is anecdotal. Here is what the regulator says. It's

very common place for sex scenes in modern pornography to feature women

being penetrated in multiple or fillses at the same time. It's

common for women to be slapped, spat a at and treated as, you know,

objectives to be tested to the limits of their physical

capabilities. That is pretty standard. That is not in just what

we might call sado-masochism pornography? No.It's a theme in

almost normal pornography? The internet has changed porn in another

massive way. Interaction. Victoria, student works as a webcam performer

it's in the nature of the medium for the content to push boundaries

towards new kinds of activity. they see what I do, or they hear me

talk about it, they certainly discover certain things that they

didn't know that they liked or they didn't realise were consumable to

have. So I find, in that sense, what I do quite powerful and, in a

positive way because I think it is helping people understanding and

coming to terms with their sexuality. They come across someone

like me who works in the industry I do, I list 100 things they have

never heard of, that are potential for them to have Because there are

thousands of women doing this kind of work in Britain alone, it's

impossible for a regulator even to know what is in the content, let

alone police it. Let us discover pornography with various supporters

and opponents of it. Is Is Anna Arrowsmith you promote these movies?

There is a lot of porn out there, not being paid for. It 's a growing

sector? Yes. We have our own channel now. We have dust TV, Feminist Porn

Awards and Berlin Film Festival. For the mainstream stuff it's been

attacked strongly. Benedict Garrett you are in this business too. How

does it feel to you. Does it feel like a real growth industry? There

is so much free porn out there it's challenging. Equal Equally, that

forces producers to be creative in the pornography they do produce.

There is a lot more pornography out there produced for women. You know,

people who want to see much more detail in terms of the quality of

the photography, the quality of the storyline. So because more and more

are accessing pornography online, increasingly women, there are new

markets pornography is trying to tap on. Do you feel anything morally

reprehencible about what you do? I certainly - I don't sit here and

represent (inaudible) Of course not. You do? When I perform in

pornography I would not do anything I would not personally watch myself.

I call what I enjoy in terms of pornography vanilla pornography. I

like seeing attractive people having sex. That is generally what I like

to see. Is the pattern of pornography changing as seems to be

suggested? There are various kind of changes that are occurring. The big

story in internet porn. In terms of production there are various stories

we could focus on. There is Anna feminist porn and user generated

pornography is one of the big stories. Equally, the internet

hasn't closed down every form of more traditional delivery of porn.

There are still magazines available to - for people to use. Also DVDs,

certain kinds of DVDs have become important like parody films.

suggestion we heard from the former regulator, there is more extreme

stuff out there, is that true? is one of the claims that is made.

Actually, it depends on how you look at the particular scenes. In the VT

there was some talk about slapping of women. Well, it depends how that

- what the context of that is. If that consensual spanking, does that

count as violence in quite the way it seems to suggest in that piece of

research? What is going on here? This is certainly something that,

you know, it didn't exist at anything like its current level

20/30 years ago. Is this a case of supply creating demand or what?

think there is certainly more women watching porn now. A third of online

con Soviet Unioners are female. It's not just women buying stuff, but

allowing men - they are using it as couples. When it becomes more

acceptable by women then men will become more likely to use it, but

also more vocal about using it. It's a mixture of, yes, we are do doing

more, but we are being honest and open about it as well. What do you

think is behind it? It is getting more violent and more available to

everyone. People have been saying it, it isn't a new thing. There is a

lot more free porn. You can see a whole scene online, you know, not

that long ago it was harder to see really long scenes. That is maybe

the internet facilitating things because previously you would have to

subscribe to a website. There are tube websites where people are

watching porn for free and, people used to buy DVDs or VHS tapes.

the whole country master baiting more or what? Well, maybe. Maybe

they are more honest. People in the past, as you say, would have gone to

shops to buy DVDs that would have put off a lot of people,

particularly women. The idea of going to Soho and dirty men finding

videos. People can explore their sexuality like never before. It has

been suppressed - In the intimacy of their own home. I think what I'm

seeing as part of my work in the violence against women organisation

is some of the fallout from this. As you were saying there, Benedict,

that some sort of material that would have been quite hard to seek

out would have had quite a significant and serious

consequences. I'm thinking in terms of of the violent & extreme

pornography and rape pornography is available within two clicks that

pref ledges of that material has certain effects. It has certain

social impacts. The fact that I would have to disagree with what

Clarissa was saying in terms of the different context around acts like

spanking. The way that mainstream pornography frames violence against

women - Why it is prolive rating in the way it is. How does it seem to

you Vivienne? What is worrying is it is available to everybody whether

you are looking for it. It appears that porn is looking for you as a

web browser it pops up where you are not necessarily looking for it. It

is hidden over the web. It requires you to click on it It does. I don't

agree with this arrangement. I don't see pop-ups coming up. I don't see

stuff unless I go looking for porn I don't find. It you don't find it in

magazines openingly or on television. I disagree with that. I

have done web searchers for something that seems innocent.

were you looking for? Do you want to know Yes?Georgian embroeder erred -

You were inviting to look at pornography? I was. Search engines

rely on what you researched before. When she argues you put the word

porn in you get rape porn that is because she writes a lot and

discusses about rape and stuff like that. Most people would just get

mainstream, I don't know how you are getting that, we just won't ask you!

Unyoung people will often look for porn because they are not getting

good education. They look to find out what sex is. When you get that

what you find is a particular version of sex. That is something

which is a really important part of why people are searching for

pornography. If they are searching because they want to watch it, that

is one issue. Young people have always searched for information

about sex, haven't they? Absolutely they have. It isn't a new

phenomenon, it's easier to access. What we see at Brook is people

having concerns and anxieties and questions - We will look at that in

a moment or two. Now, there are all sorts of aspects to this. And one of

the things that we will look at now is some of the consequences of

exposure to porn. Consequences for relationships, for children and for

society as a whole. Paul Mason computer screen has become a window

into a wide range of sexual activity. What is that doing to

people? Cindy Gallop, a woman who dates mainly young younger men set

up the website Make Love Not Porn because of a change in men's

behaviour she attributes to pornography. Many men said to me on

their first sexual encounter with someone they were dating they found

themselves being addressed with the language that you hear in porn

films, which is fine if over time you have agreed you are both into

that kind of thing, but can be a real shock and a very jar jarring

when it happens unexpectedly the first time you go to bed together.

It's illegal to provide porn to minors they do see it. Some who

study it are concerned about its effects on adolescent mens. Years

ago when a boy would find his father Playboy he got glimpses into women

bent over smiling in a cornfield. When he gets into the internet via a

smartphone, computer he is catapulted into a world of sexual

cruelty. That world is available to him 24-hours a day. There is very,

very little what we would call soft-core porn on the internet. That

has been wiped away by the sfri. Does violent -- industry. Does

violent porn cause violent behaviour? It is hard to find

evidence for that. What is clearer is images that become more extreme

and addiction. Paula Hall deals people -- with people with sex

addiction. It's exaggerating a natural and desire to seek out

attractive sexual partners. It is giving us constant endless nof elt.

Our brains are becoming more and more wired towards those

pornographic images than it is towards partnered sex. Adolescents

are in a stage of change and pruning sometimes those other path ways for

partnered sex aren't developing at all Other psychologists dispute the

possibility of sex addiction. Victoria, a webcam performer, says

she sees signs of addiction among her clients. It has the potential to

be addictive, it's easy and it's friendly and warm. A Lott of these

clients know when they log on. If I have a relationship with them over a

certain amount of time, I'm going to be happy to see them and catch up

with them and have a chat and see how they are. It's like seeing an

old friend. They forget how much money and time they spend on me. Do

I think it's damaging, yes, it's not my place to tell them to stop.

British government has signalled it will require internet providers to

filter out porn unless users specifically opt-in. Within the

industry views on this are mixed. people want to watch porn they

should opt-in to it. When people do opt-in people can't see as a bad

light because if they want to look for it, they want to watch it, that

is their own choice. David Cameron needs to stop trying to control

people under a banner of protecting them because it's protecting nobody.

It makes jobs harder and it, sort of, perpetuates the idea what is not

normal is damaging. The fact remains, never before have so many

men had so much access to extreme imagery and no political party is

proposing to censor it outright. Let us talk about some of the effects of

pornography. Julia Long what do you think it's doing the way men regard

women? I was talking to my colleagues colleagues today and some

of the test moanies that have come out of that work are really

seriously troubling. The types of language that are used to talk about

girls and their peer groups. The kinds of - in the recent office

Office of the Children's Commissioner, the OCC report, one

men said porn is everywhere. A 14-year-old boy involved in a

multiple perpetrator rape of a 11-year-old testified it was like

being in a porn film. What we are seeing is a very, very troubling set

of consequences of this material being so available. I think when we

talk about the impact of it, we tend to have a narrow definition of how

it may or may not cause violence. We have to look at the reality for

young women who are growing up having to deal with these kinds of

attitudes. Doesn't that bother you? No, because the facts don't actually

support that. Young people today are actually waiting longer to have sex.

Young girls especially. The studies show England, North America and

Australia show that violence against young people and sexual violence

against them is the lowest it has ever been. Pregnancy rates are at

the lowest for 30 years. Rape has been dropping since the early 80s,

young girls when they do - The Home Office estimates... It has stayed

around the 80,000 mark. What is your experience with young people?

majority distinguish between fantasy and reality if they have an adult

who communicates with them, good education and good support. There is

absolutely no doubt that young people are see seeing things which

sometimes lead them to question and to be confused and sometimes to be

inquiztive. The majority of young people do navigate their way through

relationships fairly well. We have a job - one of the key things about

this is, let us talk about sex and about why young people need to be -

want to have sex and when they want to have sex rather than just about

pornography. We still will not talk about young people and sexuality.

Until we do, then we are in danger of clamping down on a particular

area that seems comfortable rather than changing our culture.

Andrew Symes what is your experience? Have you seen

pornography? No. The church is recognising this is a problem. I

want to go back to what is said about addiction. There is

controversy about whether that is actually true or not. Certainly,

churches are now waking up to the fact that large numbers of their

members are coming forward and saying - we have a problem in that

we are watching this stuff. We feel as if we are addicted to it. We

can't get away from it, it is causing us shame and we don't - we

don't want to do it, but we keep coming back to it again and again.

These are members of the church? and clergy and ordinary members of

the church. It's now people are being open about this, which is

obviously a good thing, but the emphasis now is on people who

actually are feeling this is a negative thing for them. Yet, they

can't help themselves from going back to it. Is that in comparison to

a scriptures, they feel bad because they have been set up to think that

sex is bad. The feelings of negativity you have around normal

adult sexuality, I was - I wasn't raised really terriblibly Catholic,

I went to a Catholic primary school and went to church, for me when I

realised I was gay they made it difficult. For me looking online and

looking at pornography it was something of a comfort to realise

I'm not a freak. There are gay people, it's OK. Also, trying to

look at norm normal educational websites as well because sex

education at school was not there. It was totally inadequate. Given by

sixth-formers who treated it as a joke. One of the things they said,

the only thing they said in relation to homosexuality, "even benders need

to use condoms otherwise they will get AIDS, even though they already

do." I was a former Head of of (inaudible) at a school. I find it

bizarre that religion criticised pornography when the amount of

misery brought on this planet up until now and including now through

multiple reasons also because of the shame that religion puts on sexual

expression and sexual liberalism and the guilt people feel because of

that, being explore masturbation and exploring different sides of their

sexuality, the amount of misery put on people not to mention the deaths

that people suffer in certain societies because they explore those

things, is not in anyway comparable to - there is no proven negative

side to pornography. There is evidence for and against. The direct

effect of religions on this planet far outweigh - You could say some

respects pornography can be quite effective in keeping some

relationships together? Well, apparently that is what some people

say, but certainly mainstream Christian teaching, from other

religions as well, they are quite clear that sex is a great gift from

God, it is to be used within certain boundaries. We all draw the

boundaries in different ways, don't we? In different places. It's

important - If you have a couple who have different levels of sexual

desire and one of them chooses to use pornography and master bait, and

it keeps the relationship going, that is a good thing, isn't it?

think mainstream Christian teaching has always held that sexual intimacy

is between a couple who are committed to each other in a

monogamous relationship anything outside of that - What about the

people who don't have social skills to form relationships? We are

focussing on the negatives here and the possibilities of keeping not

terribly great relationships on track we have a changing

relationship with our bodies, with media, with sexuality now. There are

plenty of people out there who are using pornography as an ajunction to

their relationship. It's an important one. It may not be

produced pornography but their own material theys are generating.

you ever use pornography? This is - Let me finish this question. Do you

ever use pornography? Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the significant

things that is quite obvious as a trend is now there is more

pornography available in the privacy of your own home it's more

accessible to women. That empowers women to think about their

relationship to sex and to their bodies and the kind of relationships

and sexual activities they want to engage in that is unprecedented.

you compare it to - I need to come in here. We are in danger of

constructing pornography as this kind of liberating potential for

sexual expression. This is certainly not what the we are hearing on the

front-line of supporting women who have experienced male violence where

often pornography has either been part of that violence, where women

have been coerced into acting out. Whether it's young women that are

testifying to this in the schools work we are doing where they say

things like - I feel I am under pressure. Sexually to behave there

are certain things expected of me to behave like a porn star. With adult

women who have experience experienced being coerced into

playing - We can't hear everyone if you speak at the same time. To say

that young women are being coerced into acting in particular ways as a

result of pornography, first of all, reduces all of culture just to

pornography. They may have positive and negative - Pornography is

prevalent in our culture -- Tell us -- hang on. There is the whole issue

around consent. All of us would share the concerns about around

sexual violence. The conversation has to focus on consent and choice.

By focussing on the pornography we focus on something which is tangible

to deal with. When we talk to young people, some young people do

experience pressure because of pornography, some because of a whole

range of other reasons. Fundamental to it, if we don't address the issue

around consent around parents talking to children, through

society, better education we will fail. One of the key things that is

important here is the internet can become bedevilled here. The internet

is a force for good when it comes to advice and information for young

people. Any of the controls that we put on this have to be done with a

view, if we get it wrong, we put young people at risk of not getting

advice and help. That includes the violence against women organisations

and others as well. This link between harm between for women

especially and porn comes from a book in 1981. We had a rhetoric

which is about violence and about damage for women for 30 years. It's

very difficult for us to think in any other term. If you compare that

to another moral panic which didn't happen, which could have happened,

the comparison between professional boxing and, for instance, street

violence. We didn't have that moral panic. It's very clear we can look

at boxing and say, that is a game with special rules, people are very

capable of looking at it and seeing the very difference between two

people who consent fighting in a ring and going out and just fighting

people without their consent. We would be able to do that with

pornography were it not for that book. To frame him as a moral

(inaudible) is ridiculous. Pornography do you like? A wide

range. The primary concern for me is that it is being produced in a

clearly consensual environment. it not true, I don't want to intrude

too much, you have been the victim of sexual violence yourself?

Absolutely. I don't understand what it has to do with my engaging with

consensually engaging pornography. Have you been a victim of sexual

violence the representation, albeit with consenting actors, is of sexual

violence, where does -- how does that add up? If I have been hit by a

car I don't want to see a movie that has been hit by a car? It's a

fantasy. I enjoy the fantasy of the loss of control. It doesn't mean

that the real experience of a genuine nonconsensual violation has

to be acceptable. It's similar to going on a rollercoaster. You ride a

rollercoaster. You are out of control within a controlled way. You

have to trust that the person who produced it and the person who

operates it has enough of a concern for your safety that they will

ensure that you are safe in that environment. To allow you to

experience an extreme of emotion you couldn't do otherwise. It 's a

fantasy. The whole question of control and access to pornography

has become very topical and the Prime Minister and various others

have expressed a view on it. What is your view, Vivienne Pattinson? I

think the solution that has been suggested that filters will be

offered to all new internet service providing customers this year and

they will come with a default filter on, unless you untick it, which is a

simple thing to do, will give a degree of protection, I think. The

Rosie world of pornography that has been described here that is quite

consensual and all the rest of it, does not, I think, tally with what I

have seen with, you know, five minutes on Google putting porn into

a search engine and seeing what comes out. What kind of research do

you do around the materials you look at? That is all I need to do.It

doesn't actually. She is looking for embroidery patterns. Actually -She

is entitled to be free of it? People put porn into Google because

they are being -- looking for information. The kind of stuff they

are finding within a couple of clicks is not acceptable. We should

be having a wider discussion about sex education rather than demonising

porn. Should 1 o 00-year-olds have unsupervised access to a computer.

We know they do. Why do people blame the filter companies. The companies

that sell you software that is meant to stop kids seeing it. They aric

maing money out of not providing something that they promise and

giving you a false promise. At the moment it's like the porn industry

is being blamed, Smirnoff is being blamed for allowing a shopkeeper to

buying under age alcohol. It's wrong. It's not us - we don't sell

to under age people. Question of controls, do you have something you

want to say on controls? More about the way the porn industry is being

framed as an innocent victim and that it's being held up in the dock.

Clarissa you study this industry, I'm staggered you have nothing

critical. You appear to have nothing critical to say about it. I have

plenty - What is your idea on controls? Well, I think first of all

I think, as we said, it's important people should be able to not have to

look at porn and people should be helped if they don't want to look at

it and they feel themselves sort of trapped and sucked into it, there

should be ways of helping people. How? To get out. The churches are

developing programmes to do that. I don't know how other people are for

people who say they want to do it. In terms of controls, I mean it may

be that certain controls, it may be - there are various debates about

legal whether things should be imposed legally and so on. A much

better thing would be to encourage people to think postively about

doing other things, frankly, instead of spend - sitting in front of T V

scenes - The most important thing is that we tackle the education. We

have to compare yourselves. It's not a utopia, look at our closest

countries, the Netherlands being a good example, it's not perfect

there, young people there find it easier to talk to their parents and

teachers about sex from an early age. This have lower rates of STIs