Browse content similar to 03/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, we examine the fall-out from the leak of thousands of top | :00:08. | :00:18. | |
secret documents by Edward Snowden. Was it an act of vandalism against | :00:18. | :00:25. | |
our national security? Not even the KGB in its day of fill bee and | :00:25. | :00:31. | |
Burgess and Maclean could have dreamt of acquiring 58,000 highly | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
classified intelligence documents. We have an exclusive interview with | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
the journalist responsible for releasing the information leaked by | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
Edward Snowden and we discuss the consequences. I may be freezing to | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
death but you will never get rid of me. All the ice in the world cannot | :00:50. | :00:57. | |
kill a true idea. Back on dry land, the thinker that some call an | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
intellectual rock star, but other a left fascist, talks about his new | :01:02. | :01:11. | |
film. The composer whose music has launched more than 100 films. It's | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
all because I love doing it. I get excited. When somebody comes to show | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
you some images and they've got an idea and they are excited. | :01:22. | :01:31. | |
Good evening. For years we worried that the likes of Google Microsoft | :01:31. | :01:40. | |
and Facebook knew too much. But when the American intelligence contractor | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
Edward Snowden revealed a list of secret programmes the US and British | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
intelligence services have been working on, it seemed the State had | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
amassed a capability beyond everything. Intercepting and storing | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
vast amounts of everyday traffic. The power and scale surprised many, | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
concerned about the level of intrusion it represented, but should | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
we be worried, given the amount of data generated on-line, is it any | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
wonder they require the most powerful systems to find the pieces | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
of information that might prevent a terrorist attack say? How much | :02:15. | :02:27. | |
gathering are we prepared to accept? Piece by piece over the last few | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
months we have got glimpses of something that was previously | :02:31. | :02:38. | |
hidden. Top-secret documents leaked by former American intelligence | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
analyst, Edward Snowden have revealed a huge web of intelligence | :02:42. | :02:50. | |
gathering run by Britain's GCHQ and America's NSA. Even if you are not | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
doing anything wrong, you are being watched and recorded. This is the | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
truth and what is happening. You should decide whether we need to do | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
this. You have a powerful capability to find a small amount that you are | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
looking for, but it doesn't mean that the State is reading everyone's | :03:06. | :03:16. | |
e-mails. The NSA's actions have more than undermined internet security. | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
They've threaten to break it. In the same way that technology has | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
transformed our daily lives, it's revolutionised the world of | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
intelligence. The way in which modern communications flow is | :03:28. | :03:36. | |
dizzyingly complex. I might send an e-mail from my phone using Microsoft | :03:36. | :03:44. | |
or Google. The data will be broken up into tiny packets that might | :03:44. | :03:45. | |
travel along an international fibre up into tiny packets that might | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
optic cable. The message might also be encrypted by a company's | :03:51. | :03:58. | |
software, designed to make sure no-one can read it until it reaches | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
the person to whom it's addressed. What we have learnt from the Edward | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
the person to whom it's addressed. Snowden revelations is that | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
America's SNA and Britain's GCHQ are developing the capability to target | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
communications at every point along the route. The NSA has a programmed | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
communications at every point along called Prism which allows had to get | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
hold of data from software companies like Microsoft and Google. GCHQ is | :04:21. | :04:30. | |
tapping the international fibre optic cables through which vast | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
amount of data and individual mess aBgs pass and the two intelligence | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
agencies are working to crack the secret codes so they can read | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
messages, which other people thought were secret. They also hoover up a | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
huge amount of information about communications, so-called meta-data | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
to go through and analyse looking for patterns and connections. The | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
overall ambition is enormous - to be able to reach into the global stream | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
of digital communication and pluck out a single message and then read | :05:03. | :05:13. | |
it. So with so much of our lives on-line leaving a digital trail | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
behind has the State without anyone knowing become Big Brother? I had a | :05:19. | :05:27. | |
family and a home in paradise. That is what he believed. He's now in | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
hiding in Russia. A hero to some, a villain to others. How you see him | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
depends on how surprised and outraged you are by what he's | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
revealed. Thanks to him, the Guardian has got hold of a massive | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
trove of top-secret documents from the NSA, as well as 58,000 from | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
Britain's GCHQ. So far, it's published just a few pieces. In the | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
last week, I've been Griffin direct access to a small selection of | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
original documents held outside the UK. These form the basis of some of | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
the stories the Guardiola has already published. -- the guardian | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
has already published. The capabilities they reveal and secrets | :06:11. | :06:18. | |
they contain, make real the national security and public interest | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
argument. Those who have worked inside the secret state though say | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
that this power is vital for national security and is used only | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
for national security. What the State needs and law enforcement | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
needs is the possibility of accessing the communications of the | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
terrorists, the criminals, the kidnappers and the proliferators, | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
the paedophiles, but those communications are all mixed up with | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
everyone else's communications. There are 204 million e-mails a | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
minute buzzing around the globe. You have to have a powerful capability | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
to find the small amount that you are looking for. It doesn't mean | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
that the State is reading everyone's e-mails, nor would that conceivably | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
be feasible. You say the State isn't reading everyone's e-mails, but | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
people might fear they could be reading my e-mails? Would you really | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
support a world in which it was possible for -- was not possible for | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
the police and agencies to find the communications of the terrorists and | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
the proliferators and the kidnappers and criminals? But can we trust the | :07:28. | :07:35. | |
State? Technology allows it to do things it could never have done | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
before. Collecting and going through billions of records to find a | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
connection, or reconstructing a person's social interactions. The | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
programmes are innovative and highly complex. While there is a system of | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
oversight and accountability, every search has to be justified under the | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
human rights acts, critics feel it's not strong enough. The controls at | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
the moment frankly are far too small. They couldn't conceivably | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
check all the sorts of the sort that Snowdon is talking about. It's not | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
possible. Something which is justified in terms of national | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
possible. Something which is security is expanded into all of our | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
privacies? Yes, or the scope to do so, yes and the relatively | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
unfettered scope to do so. Everyone will say we're responsible people. I | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
know some of them, the people involved in this and they are | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
decent, civilised people, but the State simply shouldn't have these | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
powers. One day they will get used wrongly and by then it's too late. | :08:39. | :08:46. | |
As well as processing vast amounts wrongly and by then it's too late. | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
of data, the Snowden files point to the agencies deliberately | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
undermining some of the security protocols on the internet. Like the | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
process of encryption, with the goal of making it easier for them to gain | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
access to data. For us, the revelations in early September that | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
the NSA had had a major covert programme to compromise its security | :09:13. | :09:20. | |
standards and products were a 9/11 moment. Some leading computer | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
security experts have been left outraged. They've spent decades | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
trying to make sure people can communicate securely and privately | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
over the internet. The goal of the NSA and GCHQ is ensure this is not | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
the case. That they can break anybody's privacy at any time and | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
interfere with a transaction at any time. In order to do this they have | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
compromised in various ways many of the protocols on which the internet | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
relies. Now, when you introduce these vulnerabilities, they are not | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
just available from the spies, but available for bad guys to use too. | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
The files confirm the scale of what has been built, but they also | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
contain page after page of top-secret information. For | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
instance, GCHQ's work in supporting military operations overseas, so by | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
making this material vulnerable to those who want to know Britain's | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
secrets and in disclosing certain aspects of it, have Edward Snowden's | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
actions compromised national security? Not even the KGB in its | :10:26. | :10:35. | |
height of fill bee and Burgess and Maclean in the 1950s could have | :10:35. | :10:42. | |
dreamt of acquiring 58,000 highly classified intelligence documents. | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
My fear is that we are now going to witness a slow-motion car crash. In | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
which gradually sources dry up, targets such as terrorists and cyber | :10:53. | :11:01. | |
criminals will work out what are the kind of capabilities that we have | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
and they will attempt their methods and it will be harder to track them | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
down. The State has amassed enormous powers when it comes to interception | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
and it's done so in secret. That concerns many, who believe there | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
needs to be more public knowledge about the State's capability and | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
more consent to its use of those powers. Secrecy is the antagonist of | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
accountability and always is. Sometimes you can't go around it. | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
You've got to have secret agencies and spies and you've got to have | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
ways of dealing with the enemies. Nobody disputes that. But you also | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
have to have in a free society a way of keeping it under control and | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
making sure it doesn't runaway. They pushed it even further than we | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
thought they would. The surprising thing to us was that there are | :11:47. | :11:55. | |
occasional pockets of come p combatants win the two. Many of us | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
had thought that the real secret like other large pub sector IT | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
had thought that the real secret projects it didn't work and there | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
was really nobody there. But to find they've built this machine and got | :12:06. | :12:07. | |
was really nobody there. But to find it working is an eye opener. The | :12:07. | :12:15. | |
balance between secrecy and accountability is being shifted as a | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
direct result of Snowdon's disclosures. A senior US | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
intelligence official acknowledged there would now have to be more | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
transparency about the NSA's work. But as the public understands more | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
about the powerful machine that has been built in secret, how far will | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
it be confident that it's been used to keep us safe rather than to spy | :12:35. | :12:43. | |
on us? Glenn Greenwald is the journalist responsible for releasing | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
the information leaked by Edward Snowden and he joins us from Rio. | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
Good evening. Firstly, why should you be the ash for of about what is | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
in the public interest and what is vital to national security? I'm not | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
the ash for of that. I work with a huge number of Guardian editors and | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
some of the most experienced national security journalists in the | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
world. And journalism, which is designed to serve as a check on | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
those in power is about shining light on what the people in power | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
are doing, that they try to hide from the public and those are the | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
judgments that all journalism requires every single day. 58,000 | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
British documents we know. At least as many presumably from the NSA. You | :13:28. | :13:37. | |
heard perhaps Sir David there saying you are not even Philby, Burgess and | :13:37. | :13:46. | |
Maclean and this is a car crash coming. Well, this idea that there | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
Maclean and this is a car crash is 58,000 documents just because the | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
UK Government said it, I would hope we have learned after the Iraq war | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
that Government claims are not tantamount to the truth, but I think | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
the broader point is that it isn't how many documents the Guardian or | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
other newspapers around the world possess, but the question is what is | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
it that they are viewing with those documents and in every single | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
article we publish, we have gone over every single line of every | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
single document and not one line, not one comma of what we published | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
could even possibly be said to damage national security. It's all | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
about informing people if democracies about what their | :14:25. | :14:26. | |
governments are doing. You have shown where there are | :14:26. | :14:40. | |
connections. Those connections are used to track terrorists. | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
Terrorists, would-be terrorists, change their tactics. It is possible | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
Terrorists, would-be terrorists, that by your actions you make it | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
easier for terrorists to understand how to evade the checks that are | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
made on them online. That is completely ludicrous. First, the | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
premise of your question is false. We have shown much more than just a | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
collection of meta data. We have shown all sorts of invasions into | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
the content of communications between innocent people, having | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
conversations online through e-mail, online chat, collecting | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
their browsing history. The idea that terrorists did not know that | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
the United States and UK governments were trying to monitor their | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
communications is laughable. Every terrorist is capable of tying their | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
own issues, and have long known that governments are trying to monitor | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
their communications. The only thing we have informed people of is that | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
the spying system is aimed at them. How can you be sure that your | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
actions have not made it easier for terrorists to operate? You cannot be | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
sure of that. You cannot prove a negative of that, can you? I do not | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
why you are asking me to prove a negative, if it cannot be proven. A | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
way that human beings reason and journalists make decisions is that | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
you weigh the competing evidence as rationally as you can. We know the | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
evidence we are disclosing to the world is not about spying on | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
terrorists that they do not know about, but spying on innocent human | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
beings. I would like to find a human being who says, I would rather | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
remain ignorant about what my government is doing in a democracy. | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
That is not how healthy democracy functions. Do you think it would be | :16:18. | :16:25. | |
a shock that spies actually do spy? Or do you think the majority of the | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
population might find it reassuring, they might feel quite safe? I think | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
it is a shock that government officials lied to the face of | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
journalists, who do not seem to mind much. For example, in that segment | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
you played, you had people defending GCHQ on the grounds that this is | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
only about terrorism and paedophiles. But much of the | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
reporting we have done proves that is a lie. We reported that GCHQ and | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
NSA are spying on a large Brazilian oil company that funds social | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
programmes in Brazil. Are there terrorists in that? They are spying | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
on the organisation of American States when they are negotiating | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
economic agreements. Are they paedophiles? The job of journalists | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
is to present -- prevent those in power from lying to the people over | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
whom they are ruling. While some of this may be devoted to terrorists is | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
comic huge amounts are devoted to innocent people whose privacy is | :17:18. | :17:26. | |
being eroded. I gather you have vast amounts of material that has not | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
been revealed. Is it in your bedroom in Rio? I am not going to talk about | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
what is in my bedroom, or about the security measures. It is possible | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
that presumably you have... Let me... People want to know, I | :17:43. | :17:50. | |
suppose, how can you guarantee that the material you have, you can keep | :17:50. | :17:57. | |
it safe? Could it possibly be on a memory stick in your pocket? People | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
want to know how you think you can keep things safe? I will be happy to | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
answer that. That is what I was about to tell you when you | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
interrupted. There is only one group of people who have lost control of | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
huge amounts of what they claim are important documents. Those are GCHQ | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
and the NSA. The GCHQ took documents they claim are so very sensitive and | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
put them on a system at the NSA that tens of thousands of people have | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
access to. At the Guardian, we have protected our data with extremely | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
advanced methods of encryption. And our documents have remained | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
completely secure. We have not lost control of any of our material. That | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
remains entirely secure. The reason I asked is that when your partner | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
and, I suppose, collaborator, David Miranda, was apprehended, in the | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
evidence it said that actually he was carrying around password | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
material, written on a piece of paper, beside encrypted files. To a | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
lot of people, that is worrying about how careful you are about | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
security. I guess I need to give you the reminder that, as a journalist, | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
you should be aware that simply because the government makes a | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
claim, especially when they are making that claim in the middle of a | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
lawsuit while they are being sued for violating the law, one should | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
not assume that claim is factually true. So you are denying it? It was | :19:21. | :19:31. | |
a lie. The idea that he was carrying a password that allow people access | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
to those documents is absolutely false. The only ones who have lost | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
control of the documents through horrific operational security is the | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
GCHQ and NSA. He did not have the password. I will show you the proof | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
of that. The affidavit that they filed said, we have to keep this | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
material because it is heavily encrypted and we have only been able | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
to reconstruct 75 documents. They filed an affidavit proving that what | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
they have convinced you of is actually a lie. After what happened | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
to David Miranda, as his partner, that must have been very distressing | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
for you, you then said, I will be far more aggressive in my reporting | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
from now on. I will publish many more documents. I will publish | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
things on England, too. I have documents on England's spy system. I | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
think they will be sorry for what they did. Is there something coming | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
down the pipeline? That is a number months ago now. Actually, I think it | :20:24. | :20:32. | |
was four weeks ago. Since then, there has been a report about GCHQ | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
spying on a Brazilian company, which caused a major diplomatic scandal, | :20:36. | :20:43. | |
with Brazil. That interview that you reference is in Portuguese and the | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
translation you are reading from is very poor. I was asked, how do you | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
think the British government's behaviour, toward the Guardian and | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
your partner, will be viewed? I said, it will be looked at in most | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
democracies, where press freedoms are protected, unlike the UK, as a | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
thuggish form of behaviour and an attack on journalism that will make | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
them look ad. I think it is contrary to their interest and they will come | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
to regret it. -- it will make them look bad. But we will continue | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
aggressively reporting about the GCHQ and the NA -- NSA. However | :21:14. | :21:21. | |
inappropriate the translation, do you see that it was seen very much | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
as you acting as a campaigner and act to Vista? You talked about | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
revenge journalism being the wrong way to describe it, but you can see | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
how people think that. -- as an activist. My view of journalism is | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
that the more people in power abuse that power, the more accountability | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
and transparency they prove they need through journalism. When I see | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
a government like the UK barging need through journalism. When I see | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
into the newsroom of the newspaper with which I work and is demanding | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
they destroy their computers, something you would expect to hear | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
in Iran and Russia and China, or when they detain someone they think | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
is working with a journalist under terrorism law for nine hours and | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
that knowledge through the media that they are doing it to be | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
intimidating, that is a government attack on press freedom, abusing | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
their power and showing they need more transparency, and that is the | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
role of journalism. Do you fear for your safety? No, I don't. That is | :22:15. | :22:23. | |
not something I focus on. The Brazilian government has provided | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
security and Diane perfectly content with the situation. Lots of | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
journalists are in difficult positions all the time. -- I am | :22:29. | :22:36. | |
perfectly content. Do you feel you could travel to the United States, | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
and do you feel comfortable about travelling to Britain? Well, I am | :22:39. | :22:46. | |
going to return to the United States as soon as it makes sense to do so. | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
Unlike the UK, there is a constitutional guarantee of a free | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
press. Even former Obama Justice officials have said it is on think | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
above that the administration would prosecute the journalist in this | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
case. The UK is a different story because that government has proven | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
that they are willing to run roughshod over press freedoms. They | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
are threatening criminal investigations, detaining my partner | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
under terrorism law, forcing the Guardian to destroy laptops. So I am | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
more cautious about travelling to the UK, although not being able to | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
visit the UK is not something I regard as particularly great | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
punishment. Are you still in touch with Edward Snowden? Sure. He is my | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
source, somebody I care about and I speak with him regularly. And how do | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
you know how he is being treated, and how do you know, more | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
importantly, whether he has not had to give up secrets, if he is under | :23:42. | :23:48. | |
Russian protection? Because, unlike the UK and US governments, his | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
statements have proven completely true in every instance. I have never | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
once seen him lie to me about anything. I know that he has | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
protected the data that he has with extreme levels of encryption that | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
not even the NSA, let alone the lesser Russian intelligence | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
agencies, can crack. And he did not unravel his life to fight | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
surveillance in order to go to the Russians and help them serve ale. | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
But he has been through China, and Hong Kong, and you cannot be sure | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
that he has not had to give up something. You pointed out very | :24:19. | :24:26. | |
astutely a few minutes ago that nobody can prove a negative will | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
stop if you are looking to prove mathematically that they do not have | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
any data, I cannot do that. I can tell you that all of the evidence | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
that we actually know makes it ludicrous to think that they have | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
obtained any of that data. There is zero evidence that they have, and | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
any responsible journalist would refrain from suggesting that | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
happened when they have no evidence that it did. I wonder, with Edward | :24:46. | :24:54. | |
Snowden, whether or not his position in Russia, if he tried to travel, | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
look what the Americans did to the presidential plane, the Bolivian | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
presidential plane over European territory. Does he feel safe? The | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
Russians only said they would keep him for a year. Remember, he did not | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
choose to be in Russia. He was trying to pass through, and the US | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
government basically forced him to be there by revoking his passport | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
and preventing other companies -- countries from letting him transit | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
through. Given the alternative, a super max prison in the United | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
States where he disappears for the next 40 years, I think he is content | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
to be where he is. In some ways, these are elements from a spy film. | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
When you first met, how did you identify him? Right, I had no idea | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
how old he was, who he was, what he looked like. The plan was, he asked | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
us to go to a part of the hotel he looked like. The plan was, he asked | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
was staying in at a designated time and he said we would know him | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
because he was carrying a Rubik 's cube. We went at the designated time | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
and he was not there. We went at the second time he gave, and he showed | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
up a couple of minutes later carrying a Rubik 's cube. Finally, I | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
up a couple of minutes later want to ask you, because we have | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
gone from that kind of extraordinary spy film thing to the idea that he | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
actually might end up in an American super max prison. Do you think he | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
might ultimately end up in an American prison? When we were in | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
Hong Kong, he had assumed, we were all assuming that would be the | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
likely outcome of the brave choice that he had made, which is what made | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
likely outcome of the brave choice it so brave. Now, it is more | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
difficult because his reporting is considered heroic by huge numbers | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
around the world, which has made it more difficult for the US government | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
to get their hands on him and disappear him and make it so that he | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
has never heard from again. Let's discuss further now with | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
Baroness Neville-Jones, former chair of the Joint Intelligence Committee, | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
and Anthony Barnett, the founder of Open Democracy. | :26:51. | :26:58. | |
Should we not have been told about all of this anyway? I think the | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
government does have to have powers to protect us. Extraordinary things | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
that were being said by Glenn Greenwald. In particular, the most | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
astounding thing, which I simply do not credit that he believes, that | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
the Russians and Chinese are not in full possession now of both | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
techniques and information. So you actually believe... Wider you | :27:23. | :27:31. | |
believe that to be the case? He has absolutely no defences against | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
them. They will have taken possession of his computers and gone | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
into them. I do not think there is any doubt at all that they now have | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
a great deal of information which is damaging to our security, and which | :27:41. | :27:49. | |
is the result of betrayal on the part of a trusted employee. Did you | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
is the result of betrayal on the know all this was going on? The | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
world has changed with the internet. We talk about, people who are | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
worried about this, talk about this explosion in surveillance. It is a | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
function of the massive increase in the transmission of communications. | :28:08. | :28:15. | |
So you knew it was happening? Interception has always taken place. | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
You can intercept the mail, telephone calls. Do people believe | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
that is happening? No. Why should they think that in a situation where | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
you have enormous expansion of communications, which requires, for | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
purposes of protection, to have comparable powers of collection, in | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
order to intercept and find the tiny bits that matter, that all the rest | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
of it is being read. It is not. It is only there to catch the few. It | :28:42. | :28:48. | |
is not about tiny bits. I spent a political lifetime telling people, | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
mainly on the left, not to be paranoid. Thatcher was not | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
introducing fascism, Tony Blair was not creating dictatorship. We now | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
introducing fascism, Tony Blair was face the greatest threat to our | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
liberties since the Second World War. Because of the amount of | :29:00. | :29:08. | |
material that is being collected. Because these databases, which are | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
not about tiny items of Because these databases, which are | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
information, will be used, and not just by governments. Snowden was | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
working for a corporation. They will be accessed by others in | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
government. And because, most important, people will start to self | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
censor. We will find that the very fact of the total surveillance of | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
our activities means that we bash it is not a question, as the Foreign | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
Minister said, of if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
fear, but the structure of events will stop us doing things which we | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
think are right. You think we are sleepwalking into this. Do you think | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
people actually understand the nature of the meta data and how it | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
operates, and the connections that are made? No, and that is partly the | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
fault of the BBC reporting. Meta data, we do not talk about meta data | :29:58. | :30:04. | |
because everyone will fall asleep. It is very important. There is a | :30:04. | :30:10. | |
pattern. We have an electronic life, from the GPS in our telephone to our | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
text messages, to the web wages we access. And what the intelligence | :30:14. | :30:22. | |
services are doing, they are gathering 20 billion items of | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
information, and they are creating a pattern of how we live. It is not | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
about reading the content of the e-mail. It is not about getting the | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
content, it is about mapping of who we are. But Glenn Greenwald is | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
right, terrorists are smart. They have known this has been happening. | :30:42. | :30:52. | |
RCEDCYAN Of course. They take risks. They are listening to the | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
communication of terrorists. You have to find them in the first | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
place. You have to go through the data in order to get the clues that | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
enable you to get the information. What does it matter what the | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
Brazilians are doing? What does it matter? The problem is, isn't it, | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
that you might be going after terrorists, but there are lots of | :31:17. | :31:25. | |
other interesting things. It's out of control. I entirely accept and I | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
agree that there needs to be control over the system and there needs to | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
be accountability. Do you think there's enough control? What I do | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
believe is they're acting according to law and I do believe that given | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
the public anxiety that's been aroused by this, that we need to | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
have actually a body like the information and security committee | :31:46. | :31:55. | |
doing a review. Is that a good thing? Metadata is not under the | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
law. It is acting beyond the law at the moment. This is a crucial point | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
and the idea that the intelligence services are saying, "Give us all | :32:04. | :32:15. | |
the raw data, we need a clue." It's absurd. Can I put you something from | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
the film, that there has been a deliberate undermining by the | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
security services of encryption. There has always been a tension, | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
which is not new, between the need for security and the ability also to | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
intercept communications. This is not a new tension. Could you say | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
hand on heart, in a way, because you think there should be a review, that | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
Glenn Greenwald was right? No, absolutely not. No. There's no | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
question that he has done a huge public service. What the ISC needed | :32:52. | :32:59. | |
to do is actually - In the House of Commons? It's a joint committee of | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
both Houses of senior MPs. There is to reason to suppose - If you were | :33:02. | :33:11. | |
to - Any more than the judges who act who are hand maidens for the | :33:12. | :33:20. | |
executive. What would you have said to Glenn Greenwald? There is no way | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
that that young man will have been able to resist. Can I put that to | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
you, that here is a senior intelligence expert in this country | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
saying there is no way on Earth that Edward Snowden has not had to give | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
us something in Russia or before that in China? The innor rans of | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
those comments is truly astounding to me. First, you would think that a | :33:42. | :33:51. | |
racial person -- a rational person, would have at least a little bit of | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
evidence before saying that. There is none. What is the basis for this? | :33:56. | :34:03. | |
But please let me make the point. I listened for a long time. She said | :34:03. | :34:11. | |
they got the data on his laptop. That isn't how data works. It's not | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
1998. It's stored on thumb drives and on those drives are very | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
sophisticated means of encryption shells that as I said before and I | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
know this because I've read the documents that I have, not even the | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
NSA can break the encryption codes of 4,000 characters long. He doesn't | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
even have them. Let me just put that to her. That is a clarification. He | :34:32. | :34:41. | |
doesn't even have them? I don't believe any of that. The Russians | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
have got sophisticated capability. Thank you all of you. | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
Today, the Gambia announced it was leaving the Commonwealth much to the | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
surprise of the Foreign Office and Commonwealth. The Gambian Government | :34:57. | :35:04. | |
says it doesn't want to be part of a Ne-yo colonial establishment. If the | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
Commonwealth is a club what are the rules and why would anyone want to | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
be a member? There is some flash photography in this report. We hold | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
our breath here in the islands of Figi, as Her Majesty steps ashore. | :35:19. | :35:26. | |
When the Queen arrived here in 1953 she may have been struck by cultural | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
differences. She was met with respectful silence. It was her very | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
first tour and a beginning of a role she is said to love. Because our | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
sovereign is a woman she is to be honoured first by women. Especially | :35:41. | :35:49. | |
in this old and treasured custom of ours, the placing of a whale tooth | :35:49. | :35:56. | |
upon our sacred canoe. For decades the Commonwealth has been trying to | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
show it's more than a collection of former colonial powers. In March, | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
the Queen signed the charter, which has respect for human rights and | :36:04. | :36:10. | |
democracy at its core. I hope the carefully chosen words of the | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
charter will reinvigorate efforts already begun to make the | :36:15. | :36:22. | |
Commonwealth fit and agile for the years ahead. Gambia's President says | :36:22. | :36:30. | |
he left the Commonwealth because he doesn't want to be lectured about | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
human rights by the Ne-yo colonial west. It's not obvious they'll miss | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
him very much. He thinks homosexuality is one of the three | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
biggest threats to human existence and prayer beads and centre in hand | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
he has offered to cure AIDS by boiling herbs. The Gambia was one of | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
the 54 states. The exit means there are 18 countries from Africa. | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
Roughly one in three people in the world belong to the Commonwealth, so | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
it's a club with two billion people, with the Queen at the head and the | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
monarch of 16 realms. Five members have their own monarchs, the | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
remaining 32 are republics. Every member has equal status, so the | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
little guy country get to rub shoulders with the big nations. | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
Robert Mugabe took Zimbabwe out of the club ten years ago. Critics said | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
he should have been ex-spelled years before. To them, the Commonwealth | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
talks the talk on human rights, but does little to uphold them. Why, | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
they ask, is the Commonwealth meeting in Sri Lanka in six weeks' | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
time, where the Government is accused of killing thousands of | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
civilians during its civil war? So what will Gambia lose? Well, not | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
much. You don't get any trade privileges or any influence on | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
economic and defence policy and there's no aid budget. You would be | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
better off trying all the other clubs out there, like the G20. The | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
Commonwealth club is a talking shop clubs out there, like the G20. The | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
then, but look at who you get to talk to and you do get to play games | :38:05. | :38:12. | |
all over the world. If you're still not convinced then think about who | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
you could get to visit. The Windsors are such good sports. They do like | :38:17. | :38:25. | |
dancing. And they don't mind dressing up. With me is the former | :38:25. | :38:32. | |
UN deputy general Lord monthly lark brown and a member from the sect | :38:32. | :38:40. | |
tear yacht. Do you think it's a Ne-yo colonial institution? No, I | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
don't think it is. The track records in helping Zimbabwe obtain | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
independence, the track record in helping South Africa get majority | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
rule, so there are accomplishments in themselves. Surely there was an | :38:55. | :39:06. | |
umbrella under which all sorts of dubious practises go on. Why hasn't | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
it been able to reform some of the more appalling things happening? | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
Gambia's retirement is an indication that the Commonwealth does have some | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
teeth, because clearly Gambia was trying to pre-empt criticism at the | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
summit and it's been criticised already by lots of other human | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
rights organisations, so while the Commonwealth is not up there in | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
bright light with the EU or the UN or strong regional organisations in | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
Africa, it is an important club and association of countries that do | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
share some kind of common standards. But, why do you think it is that | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
Rwanda for example and most pose earlier on, but Rwanda, wants to | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
join at this late stage, which in fact they're allowed in and they've | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
now got a child solder army? There are lots of difficulties within the | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
present Commonwealth. It's a mixture of contradictions, but also a | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
ceiling on just how contraditory a country can be, so that there are | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
certain limits that even the President of Rwanda would be very, | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
very conscious of not breaking. I think it's to try to allude having | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
the invitations apply to him and the President has taken this country out | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
of the Commonwealth. But moving forward, the problem is, isn't it, | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
that you say it's stopping the worst things happening, but as a result of | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
the way it was born, Britain, for example, is reluctant to criticise, | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
because it looks like an imperial power criticising? Don't | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
underestimate the British role. It's quite behind the scenes a strong | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
leader on this. It took a lead on making Pakistan go out under | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
military rule and used the various committees effectively, but you | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
cannot get away from the fact this is not an organisation built around | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
geography or common interest and therefore it's a little bit of | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
Septemberment in there -- sentiment, which means it's not quite | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
effective. Therefore, do you think it has a limited shelve life? I | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
think all the things around it with the sports and association of | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
businesses and things that form around it are quite dynamic. But | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
they are exclusive of others? The point is they are much more like the | :41:20. | :41:29. | |
Olympics. Why have the Commonwealth Games not more often? It's a benign | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
club that lets in those who want it. It won't be a first-tier | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
organisation, but I suspect it has a lot of life left in it. Gentlemen, | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
thank you. With one of the world's most | :41:40. | :41:48. | |
important and cultural theorists, he has even been called the Elvis of | :41:48. | :41:55. | |
cultural theory. Slavoj Zizek is a sworn enemy of capitalism. To his | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
fans he's a hero of a dying radical left and critics a dangerous icon | :42:01. | :42:07. | |
class who is responsible, but whatever you think it's hard to deny | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
his entertainment value. Here is a clip from his new fill, The | :42:11. | :42:19. | |
Pervert's guide to Ideology. That is the iceberg hitting the ship and it | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
plays in the development of the lore story. When the ship docks I'm | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
getting off with you. This is crazy. I know. It's slightly cynical. This | :42:29. | :42:36. | |
would have been the true catastrophe. We can imagine how | :42:36. | :42:42. | |
maybe after two or three weeks of intense sex in New York the love | :42:42. | :42:49. | |
affair would somehow fade away. He joins me now. There is a great deal | :42:49. | :42:55. | |
of irony promoting your thesis through the prism of Hollywood | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
films? Why? I think Hollywood films offer in the disstilled form, an | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
insight into where are we today. And I don't mean by ideology, this | :43:07. | :43:16. | |
notion of some system which gives us a world view for countries and | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
socialism or whatever, but simply a world view for countries and | :43:18. | :43:24. | |
how do we make our life meaningful every day? It's the air we are | :43:24. | :43:30. | |
breathing. But your theory seems to suggest that you think we are kind | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
of dazed and enslaved. You were talking about enjoyment, that we | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
don't have free will and we think - we are forced to think the only | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
thing we can have is new lab raleism. Wait a minute. I'm | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
absolutely not any kind of a sworn enemy of capitalism and democracy. | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
What I think and it makes me sad, is that the two of them no longer go | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
automatically together. My challenge to partisans of that is to look at | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
China and Singapore and many others who show today the most dynamic | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
forms of capitalism. Obviously to longer need democracy. A lot of | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
Chinese people would say the lack of democracy is something they're | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
having to put up with the explosion that they are not having the | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
democracy they want. They don't have entire fr speech. Then you seem to | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
suggest revolution should be coming from a dynamic, the leader and you | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
think there should be a leader who shows the way, but we know from 20 | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
century history that a lot of the leaders have been flawed terror | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
spreaders. Absolutely, but what I mean by leader, I would have to | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
explain, but I don't have time now. Think about it, when people | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
spontaneously organise themselves and so on, they always have a | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
leader, about an authentic leader is not the one who gives the order, do | :44:57. | :45:04. | |
this, don't do that. An authentic leader and basically there was an | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
echo of this in Obama's first campaign, the famous yes we can, a | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
leader lets you know it's not hopeless, you can do it, you can | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
break the limitations and do what appears to be impossible. A leader | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
sets you free. In order for that freedom to be given, there must be | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
or may och be an element of violence? . You seem to suggest | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
there is a nucleus of violence there is a nucleus ofviolence | :45:31. | :45:46. | |
violence. You call it enans payings. What a minute, I'm clear. By | :45:46. | :45:51. | |
violence I don't mean physical violence. Let's take an example with | :45:51. | :45:58. | |
which we agree, that was a nice sublime moment, hundreds of | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
thousands of people demonstrating there. What they did was violence | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
that I don't know what violence is. What did they do? They brought the | :46:05. | :46:12. | |
whole state to a standstill. And the whole point of Mubarak's police, | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
physical violence was to restore normal run of things. The violence | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
I'm for is not the physical violence of hitting people and so on, but | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
it's the right of the people when they have enough to say stop, we | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
don't participate. On one story that's been running here about the | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
vilification of Ralph Miliband in the Daily Mail and the objection to | :46:35. | :46:43. | |
it obviously by his son. Do you think that Marxism has the ability | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
to scare and upset people? Mostly no. I'm the first to agree. Let's be | :46:47. | :46:56. | |
frank I was only repeating this. The markist experience - by this states | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
who legitimate their rule by reference to Marxism. They might | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
have done something good, education and industrialisation and healthcare | :47:05. | :47:12. | |
or whatever, but if it was one big ethical political catastrophe. I | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
agree. We have run out of time to bring the interview with the compose | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
agree. We have run out of time to you are hance Zimmer. We hope to | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
show it tomorrow. | :47:21. | :47:23. |