Browse content similar to 09/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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President Obama announced a new boss for the most important Central Bank | :00:00. | :00:10. | |
in the world. Who is the woman to be burdened with a job on which the | :00:10. | :00:17. | |
rest of the world's fortunes depend? 24 hours a day, seven days a week, | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
London circles the globe through the BBC. | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
Once upon a time anyone could tell you what the BBC was for. Is it time | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
it was put back in its box? We're joined by Jeremy Deller, one | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
of Britain's most successful conceptual artists, who introduces | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
us to his latest venture, an exploration of the industrial | :00:36. | :00:46. | |
revolution. Sheffield, smoke and glim, Parliamentary report 1833. | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
Sheffield is one of the dirtiest and most smoky towns I ever saw. | :00:50. | :01:04. | |
A couple of hours ago President Obama formally nominated a | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
67-year-old economist, Janet Yellen to become one of the most powerful | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
women in the world. Assuming she is confirmed as a chairman of the | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
Federal Reserve by the Senate, she'll become the first woman to | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
head a major Central Bank at a time when most of the world is affected | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
by how that bank manages what is a very damaged, but still influential | :01:22. | :01:30. | |
economy. Her gender is a nothing issue compared to what she thinks | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
about how the economy ought to be handled. | :01:34. | :01:46. | |
Yesterday, the US Federal Reserve released its new $1100 bill. It | :01:46. | :01:54. | |
looks unlike any of its predecessors. | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
It is unlikely that anyone has tried to forge Janet Yellen, but she, like | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
the banknote, looks unlike any of her predecessors. Today, she was | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
unveiled as the president's choice for the chair of the US Central | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
Bank, the Federal Reserve. Janet, I thank you for taking a on this new | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
assignment and given the urgent economic challenges facing our | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
nation, I urge the Senate to confirm Janet without delay. I am confident | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
that she will be an exceptional chair of the Federal Reserve. I | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
should add that she will be the first woman to lead the Fed in its | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
100 year history. In her Brooklyn accent, Janet Yellen | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
accepted the nomination and promised to do more to help struggling | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
Americans. The mandate of the Federal Reserve | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
is to serve all the American people. And too many Americans still can't | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
find a job and worry how they will pay their bills and provide for | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
their families. The Federal Reserve can help if it does its job | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
effectively. The current Fed chairman, Ben Bernanke, stands down | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
next year with the US federal Government in shutdown and debt | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
default a possibility, the markets are jittery and uncertain. The World | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
Bank and the IMF have their meeting on Friday in Washington, with | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
everything else there is to worry about, a new Fed nem knee at least | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
crosses one uncertainty off the list. | :03:23. | :03:29. | |
I think it is good news that the US Administration is moving towards | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
dissipating the uncertainty that exists about who is going to be the | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
next a chairman of the Federal Reserve. So who is Janet Yellen? At | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
67, she is perhaps the best qualified and most experienced | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
candidate for the job ever. For the past two years, she has been Ben | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
Bernanke's deputy, before that, a long career in academia and a stint | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
on Bill Clinton's council of economic advisers. She can point to | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
several occasions in the past when she correctly warned against the | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
prevailing wisdom. She was one of the people that did raise, you might | :04:02. | :04:09. | |
say, alarm bells, but I think like many of the others who saw the | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
problems coming, didn't see the magnitude of the difficulties. Very | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
different from those many of those in the mainstream who saw no | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
problem, you know, Greenspan, would say there is a little froth in the | :04:24. | :04:31. | |
economy, but no real problem. Actually, undertook policies that | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
helped create the bubble. So it was a very different stance. | :04:35. | :04:43. | |
According to a study, Janet Yellen comes out top. She made the right | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
call, says the paper, almost twice as often as Ben Bernanke. Before we | :04:47. | :04:54. | |
get tee carried away, her score was still only 52% right, not for | :04:54. | :05:01. | |
nothing, is economics known as the dismal science! So what can we | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
expect from the future? A continuation of Ben Bernanke's loose | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
monetary policy, no early end to quantitative easing in the Scotland | :05:10. | :05:17. | |
Yardon -- jargon. And she is an inflation dove, meaning she won't | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
bear down on inflation if it means rising unemployment. Her appointment | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
doesn't signal a big change. She will be a little bit different. She | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
might be soft on inflation and might manage monetary policies that's | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
loser than what we have seen with Ben Bernanke. But the broad picture | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
will remain the same. The Fed is celebrating its centenary | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
this year. 100 years since this movie was made. The world's | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
financial system is more complex and more dangerous. The job of Fed chair | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
is more difficult. I'm joined now from Boston by | :05:51. | :06:03. | |
Harvard economics professor, Ken Rogoff, and from Washington by | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
Gillian Tett, the Assistant Editor of the Financial Times. How | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
significant an appointment is this? Well, it marks a continuity | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
appointment in terms of the actual Fed policies because Janet Yellen | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
has been vice chair for a number of years and served longer inside the | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
Fed before getting this position than any of the previous Fed | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
chairmen. What does mark a radical break is she is the first woman to | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
hold this position. Only 10% of the world's 177 Central Bank governors | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
are women and she joins their ranks. Does that make any difference, | :06:40. | :06:48. | |
Kenneth Rogoff? I think it is very important politically, not in her | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
role as being Central Banker, she superb. She is brilliant. She will | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
represent continuity in policy, continuity in excellence. But, of | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
course, I think the fact that she is a woman is important and everyone is | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
going to embrace that. Why? I mean... Gillian, go on. | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
going to embrace that. Perhaps I can jump in here and say, | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
I mean the good thing about Janet Yellen, apart from the fact that she | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
is a very accomplished academic economist, who is good at pulling | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
people together, and listening to their points of view, which would be | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
important for the Fed as they try and pool people together through | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
difficult policy decisions, but the good thing about her, is she looks | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
accessible to ordinary Americans. I mean, she looks like your | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
grandmother or your neighbour's friend. She is not yet another | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
person in a suit who is sitting in an ivory tower and that's important | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
right now because the Fed is going to have to really build confidence | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
amongst the ordinary American consumers in the coming years and | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
get them to believe in what it is doing through this difficult policy | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
challenges and at least Janet Yellen represents a new face and a very | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
friendly one too. Kenneth Rogoff, what's your view of | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
whether she is likely to consider inflation more or less important | :08:05. | :08:12. | |
than bearing down on unemployment? Well, I think that she considers the | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
unemployment problem just profound at the moment and if inflation | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
drifts up a bit that is OK. I really don't think Ben Bernanke was all | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
that different. I think he confronted a board where there were | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
hawks, where there were people who were sceptics and he pushed back and | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
Janet Yellen will do the same. I want to second what Gillian said | :08:35. | :08:44. | |
about her being empathetic. She projects it as well. It will help | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
the Fed explain what it is doing. No, I think this really is | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
continuity in policy because Ben Bernanke was dovish too. | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
The other question, of course... Can I jump? Go on, Gillian. Go on. Both | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
Ken and I agree she has many skills. I want to raise two questions going | :09:03. | :09:10. | |
forward about her skill set. Although she frents a friendly -- | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
forward about her skill set. presents a friendly face. Will she | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
have enough charisma and authority to win confidence of the markets | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
going forward given the scale of challenges the Fed will face? | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
Secondly, she is a great academic economist, she is not actually had | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
that much direct markets experience and if I have one big question, does | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
she really smell and read markets in the way the Fed chairman is going to | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
need to do in the coming years? Some people might say, it is great she | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
hasn't got markets experienced and she hasn't worked on Wall Street. | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
There is one question in my mind is about her ability to play a clever | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
dance with the markets going forwardmed | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
What's your view on that, Kenneth Rogoff? Well, of course, I do think | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
basically it is a plus that she has not been in the markets. That it | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
represents an independent and integrity that we need. Certainly, | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
after the financial crisis, Ben Bernanke had the same thing, of | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
course. But I mean this is a person who is the president of the San | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
Francisco Federal Reserve. She has been following and you know, she | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
will be very effective. She, because she is a consensus builder, somebody | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
who is a good listener, she will be able to learn from the staff. She | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
won't always insist she is right. She won't always bulldose over them. | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
I know she can be tough when she wants to be and when she needs to | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
be. I think she has a good mix of these skills. | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
The other thing, Kenneth Rogoff, that is likely to be sensitive as | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
far as the markets are concerned is this question of continuing or | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
tapering off quantitative easing. What is your hunch about that? Well, | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
tapering off quantitative easing. there is quite a consensus within | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
tapering off quantitative easing. the Fed that she is going to deal | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
with that it didn't help that much. That it has some risks and they want | :11:06. | :11:13. | |
to pull out. And they handled it very, very badly in May. It was a | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
disaster and they are going to have to regroup for a while, but I | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
suspect we will be on track to see tapering off if not at the end of | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
this year, towards the beginning of next. I don't think this will | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
represent a break with that. Is that the right thing to do? That's | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
another question. I tend to favour saying more rather than less, but I | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
suspect that the strength of the consensus within the board, the rest | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
of the board is so strong it will continue to push in that direction. | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
Is that your sense too, Gillian? I think there is a lot of debate | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
inside the Fed, but I can't emphasise strongly enough how | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
difficult a challenge Janet Yellen is going to face. Some people inside | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
the Fed think that tapering off the current experiments in monetary | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
policy will be like landing a plane. They smooth and very gentle and you | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
stop buying assets and the plane comes into land gently and you | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
hardly notice. That's wildly optimistic and it will be more like | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
a plane coming in for crash landing in a storm with a pilot who can can | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
only see half the controls and the radar is broken. What you are | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
looking at is an extraordinary new experiment about how you stop this | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
quantitative easing. The International Monetary Fund came out | :12:29. | :12:30. | |
quantitative easing. The today with an extraordinary estimate | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
saying that when the Fed starts to taper, that could create $2.3 | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
billion worth of losses on taper, that could create $2.3 | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
portfolios that investors hold around the world in bonds. That's a | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
big number. Of course, it is not definite, but the key point is we | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
could be heading for a period of real market volatility if not this | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
month, then in the next couple of years. | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
Well, something to look forward to. Thank you very much indeed. | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. It is relative, of | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
course, but it is undeniable if they could get their way, some of this | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
country's most prestigious universities would charge students a | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
lot more for the education they receive. Students have already seen | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
university fees treble to £9,000 a year. Today, the vice chancellor of | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
Oxford said that that is nothing like enough to he cover the true | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
cost which is around £16,000. It is political poison, of course, to | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
allow fees to rise to that level, about because of the argument that | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
allow fees to rise to that level, they would put smart young people | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
off the idea of university. Here is Sanchia Berg's essay. | :13:40. | :13:56. | |
The freshers are coming can. Exr -- Oxford's freshers are starting this | :13:56. | :14:06. | |
week. Most UK students at Oxford come from affluent families, more | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
than 40% went to private schools. While the numbers on free school | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
meals have been low and static tor years, for those from less affluent | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
households, the university's public image can be daunting. The reality | :14:19. | :14:26. | |
is different. The idea that Oxford is only for the very rich or those | :14:26. | :14:33. | |
whose parents went to Oxford or are from that background, but I don't | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
think that's true. All the misconceptions that you | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
think about, it is really posh. It is really boring. It is full of | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
really rich people. And I had those misconceptions. I was shocked to | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
find it costs the same as any other university. The fees are the same. I | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
did have misconceptions and I did think everyone would be from private | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
school and they would be walking around in a tuxedo and would live in | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
castles. Know how to learn. Know how to | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
think. Oxford's vice chancellor wants to | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
charge higher fees, saying each under graduate costs the university | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
£16,000 a year which would surely make the university more exclusive | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
still. So far, don'ts say tuition fees have not been a deterrent. We | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
are seeing students are not put off by 2003s. In my eight or nine years | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
here, we have never had a student withdraw or suspend for reasons of | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
financial need. We will not let it happen. | :15:35. | :15:43. | |
Meet the brilliant club. A charity helping bright students from | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
comprehensives get to elite universities, they are the kind of | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
student Oxford needs to attract. Anyone here thinking that Oxford | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
might be wound one of their choices on UCCAS. | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
The latest data shows between 2008 and 2011, just 40 students on free | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
school meals got to Oxbridge each year. It is not always about | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
recruiting students for our college or university. Sometimes it is about | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
going into low income communities, low participation communities and | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
talking about university in general. Two years ago, the charity k, the | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
Sutton Trust looked at where under graduates had come from. They found | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
that five schools, four independent, one State, had sent more pupils to | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
Oxford and Cambridge than 2,000 other schools combined. And some | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
say, that this is the problem. That there is still too many schools | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
across the country who don't think that even their brightest pupils can | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
apply to these universities. If you look at the top of anything | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
in British society, you are looking at close to 50% coming from just two | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
universities. So, it is actually, if you want to get on in this country, | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
going to Oxford and Cambridge is a huge advantage. It is the number of | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
kids going to Oxford and Cambridge from poor backgrounds is incredibly | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
low and that is a big issue. Let's to the forget, we are talking | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
about two universities, Oxbridge being clobbered again. Oxbridge | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
aren't the only top universities in this country. Let's look at the data | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
for the kids from the free school meals background who are at the top | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
flight universities in this country. You will see different numbers. It | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
is not, it can't just be about Oxbridge. | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
No, I don't think it is just about Oxbridge. Oxbridge is a kind of... | :17:26. | :17:38. | |
Oh, it is tiresome. At Exeter College where I studied in | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
the 1980s, the rector has been trying to recruit more students from | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
different backgrounds. She thinks there has to be a shift. She tackled | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
ministers about it. So far, without success. I think what we really need | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
and this isn't an Oxford policy, this is what I think we need, is a | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
way of doing what American universities do and ta are getting | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
the really clever kids early on at school, maybe when they are doing | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
GCSEs and seeing what their results are, picking them out and con | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
tacting -- contacting them and bringing them here and making them | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
realise they should be working to see if they can come here and they | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
will enjoy it when they get here. You wanted to get more bright | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
children from disadvantaged families into the college ever since you | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
came. Have you managed to make a change? It crept up a little, but it | :18:31. | :18:38. | |
has not been a dramatic change. That's a course of regret to me. | :18:38. | :18:45. | |
Rebecca and Rose are just starting their second year studying history. | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
What did they think of the idea? I their second year studying history. | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
think it could be a really useful way of encouraging students from | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
lower income backgrounds to think about Oxford. That's the first step, | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
I think, the application process isn't discriminatory, but getting | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
students from those backgrounds to apply is the real problem. | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
Lots of people apply to Oxford wonder if they are good enough. If | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
you are wondering if you are from the wrong social class, it is | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
impossible and then odds are you are not going to apply. Individual | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
targeting would be great. Oxford works hard to persuade | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
students from alall backgrounds that the university could be right for | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
them. There is no sign yet it made a dramatic difference and talk of | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
raising fees is likely to make that job tougher. | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
Well, with us now is Simon Renton who is president of the University | :19:41. | :19:49. | |
and College Union and Dr Wendy from the Russell Group which represents | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
24 of our leading universities. Are we supposed to take this winge from | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
the vice chancellor at Oxford seriously? I don't think it is a | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
winge. We need to make sure our leading universities have enough | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
money to compete with universities in the US, in Asia, in Brazil, in | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
Australia. They have more resources than we do. We as a country spend | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
half what the US does on higher education. We are the equivalent of | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
Chile and Slovakia. We need to make sure the problem is... You would | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
like to see fees raised, would you? There is an issue. Before we talk | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
about fees, we need to look at what is happening in the current system. | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
At the moment, fees don't increase with inflation. There is a problem | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
also with the under funding of some high cost subjects like chemistry, | :20:42. | :20:48. | |
physics, medicine. £9,000 goes nowhere near... So you support his | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
view. What do you think? I agree entirely that particularly the | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
research intensive universities are vastly under funded however, I would | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
say, when I was 26 I was driving London Buses for a living. I stopped | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
work and went to my local college. Now, I'm certain, absolutely certain | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
that I would not do that if I were in that position now with the fees | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
regime that we already have. But the evidence doesn't show that? All I | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
would say is my evidence to me does show that. We have got a number of | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
variables. Since fees went up, actually | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
applications have recovered to where they were before. And from students | :21:33. | :21:41. | |
from disadvantaged backgrounds. There are other things that changed | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
as well as the fees introduction. So universities are under pressure, not | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
that heavy pressure, but to widen their access base. There are all | :21:51. | :21:58. | |
sorts of reasons why it hasn't dropped off the cliff in terms of | :21:58. | :22:05. | |
recruitment. Finance, I know this seems counter-intuitive. Finance is | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
not the problem when it comes to increasing the proportion of working | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
class kids in our universities. Can we focus on the main problem? The | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
main problem is under achievement at school. Let him get a word in edge | :22:19. | :22:25. | |
ways. If we solve that problem, we would solve many others. | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
If we solved the problem of under achievement in schools, we would | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
have the magic wand. In the short-term, we have to start dealing | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
with what the problems are in universities and the big problem is | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
that countries are leaving the cuts yoets -- leaving the United States | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
aside, I don't hold the United States up as a good example. There | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
are a handful of elite institutions. We should be going in the direction | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
of Germany and France and the Scandinavian countries where the | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
State is putting money into higher education because they believe that | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
education in general and higher education in particular... So the | :23:07. | :23:14. | |
taxpayer just coughs up more money 1234 -- more money? If we stick with | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
the fees regime that we have is that money is being recovered through | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
taxation anyway. If it is the case that one is better off in the | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
employment market having been a graduate then it is reasonable | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
surely that direct taxation pay a significant, if not the entire cost. | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
Both parties need to contribute and employers as well by the way because | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
everyone does benefit. But it is fair that it the stupt who does | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
benefit -- student who does benefit significantly does pay a higher | :23:45. | :23:46. | |
proportion. You have been talking to significantly does pay a higher | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
the Government. You must have made your anxiety that the fees are | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
inadequate plain to Government. Have they given you an indication that | :23:58. | :24:06. | |
they would raise the fees in relation to inflation? We cannot go | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
on being world-class in this country without access to more funding. | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
And as far as you are aware the level of fees is not going to | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
change? That's my impression at the moment. We would like to make sure | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
that the Government recognises the case. But what is really important | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
coming over is that the current repayment system does not deter | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
poorer students. I don't accept it. Give the message... I don't accept | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
that's the case. The fact that the proportion of pupils from relatively | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
deprived backgrounds and under performing schools has not fallen is | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
not simply a demonstration that the fees are not a deterrent. They are a | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
deterrent to a large number of persons particularly those who are | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
averse to acquiring debt and it is very well to say well, you don't | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
have to pay now. You can pay later. For households which doesn't run | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
mortgages and are not accustomed to running long-term debt that's a | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
threat. To say there are bursaries as grants which you can have... | :25:08. | :25:14. | |
Which there are. You have to apply before you can know whether you will | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
get them. It remains a deterrent to work up that debt. | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
Thank you very much. What's the BBC for? It was | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
instructed that it had to inform educate, and entertain. But then the | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
Sunday Sport could claim to be doing the same and doesn't require a tax | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
to do so. After a series of snouts in troughs scandals among the | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
management, the new Director-General announced a plan to refocus the | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
organisation on drama and entertainment and the arts. There | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
are new services. It seems that the BBC cannot see a media activity | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
without wishing to get into it itself and with lots of lots of | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
public money to spend. What if you could watch things | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
before they were even on TV? It has been a year to forget for the BBC. | :26:03. | :26:09. | |
Hardly surprising that Lord Hall used his first major speech since | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
rejoining the organisation to outline his vision for the future | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
rather than to lament its past mistakes. I want us to celebrate the | :26:19. | :26:26. | |
best of British originality and even eccentricity. This is fundamental. | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
Everything else depends upon it. It didn't sit well with everyone. An | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
editorial in the Financial Times, hardly a hotbed of anti-BBC active | :26:37. | :26:44. | |
vivm, lambasted Lord Hall's plans. It said the new Director-General | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
should refocus the BBC on a narrower purpose and Lord Hall used his first | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
major speech since starting the job to add to the list of BBC sidelines | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
and on Lord Hall's commercial ambitions, if the BBC becomes a | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
commercial media company, it must expect to be funded like one. | :27:03. | :27:13. | |
With us now is John Gapp and James Purnell. I take it that you think | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
With us now is John Gapp and James that the BBC should be doing things | :27:15. | :27:22. | |
like Attenborough? Yes. And Radio 3? Yes and the Proms? Yes. | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
What things shouldn't it be being then? I think I should make it clear | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
that the FT and I believe the BBC should be there. We are not a | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
Murdoch organisation that believes it should be abolished. It has a | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
valuable purpose in British broadcasting, but it has a tendency | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
to stray and empire build. So what shouldn't it be doing? | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
That's an interesting question. That's a question... That you ought | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
to answer. No the BBC fails to answer. | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
You answer it, matey. OK. OK. I think that it should not be doing as | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
much of the sort of programmes that anybody could be doing. Such as? You | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
want me to edit the BBC? No, I want, you write editorials in the FT | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
saying it is trying to do too much. Wh should it stop doing? Stop | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
spreading itself too thin across a lot of light entertainment and do | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
not need the BBC to produce them. What sorts of things? I just said, | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
light entertainment, things that you could, one can often turn on the BBC | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
and see programmes, the BBC talks about them being distinctive. | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
What about Strictly Come Dancing? That's a fine programme, but it | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
could be well produced by ITV. The Voice. How much did the BBC | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
spend on the Voice? The danger with John's proposal... You are not | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
answering the question either! The danger with John's proposal. You | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
would end up with a BBC that FT readers loved and was funded by | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
everyone else. The things they would get rid of would be Radio 1 and the | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
Voice. The listen fee payers said we want more shows like the Voice and | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
Strictly Come Dancing. So the justification is what? | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
Everybody has to pay the licence fee. Everybody should be able to get | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
something from it. Is that the argument? That's right. If you took | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
out the shows that maybe the FT wouldn't want us having, young | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
people would be getting much less from the BBC, but paying for it and | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
that wouldn't be right and that's why the BBC worked. Everybody has to | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
get something and we have to work really hard... That's wrong. James | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
is arguing that we think there should be a more elite BBC. I am | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
very well served. I listen to the radio. I watch the Great British | :29:48. | :29:57. | |
Bake Off. The people I am concerned about is the people paying the money | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
and are at a stretch and the things they want to watch would be provided | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
anywhere. Taking a away from the services and | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
the programmes, they enjoy the BBC for at the moment. | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
Are you comfortable with 180,000 people being taken to court for not | :30:12. | :30:19. | |
paying? It is a tax that's the most unpopular tax in Britain. | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
Actually, the countries which have the most successful public service | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
broadcasting have the most successful commercial broadcasting. | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
broadcasting have the most It is true, if you look at the data, | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
the countries that have the best public service broadcasting are | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
Germany, us and have the best commercial broadcasting and for the | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
reason we compete with etch auto other and bring the best out of each | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
other. If you want to know which piece of | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
music is playing. You pick up your phone and press the app and it tells | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
you. The BBC proposes to produce something similar. Why? It will be a | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
different things and lots of music streaming services have welcomed it | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
because it is what we have done. Right back to the third programme, | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
we have been saying here is something you didn't know about and | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
you will love and that's what this application, the BBC Playlist will | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
do. Why do you worry about it? That sort | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
of application? I am more worried about the point James was making | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
earlier. He was saying that commercial and public go alongside | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
each other. I think they can do so and the BBC can play a cornerstone | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
role. It must concern the BBC that the US which is one of the weakest | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
public broadcasters produces one of the strongest dramas. | :31:31. | :31:37. | |
The US is a big market that other countries have to have a certain | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
amount of public intervention to compete. We should be saying the BBC | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
is a brilliant thing about Britain. We have an amazing industry. It is | :31:43. | :31:50. | |
partly to do with the BBC and by having the BBC... He has been | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
supportive. You are very supportive. I can't understand why James who was | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
a Government minister five years ago, questioned whether or not the | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
BBC should receive all of the licence fee money or whether the BBC | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
should be the definition of what is public service broadcasting or | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
whether or not other people should public service broadcasting or | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
be allowed? A man who questions it... We are the only country other | :32:13. | :32:22. | |
than America who is the net exporter of music and drama. | :32:22. | :32:33. | |
Now, let's Jeremy Deller, the artist who represented Britain at the | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
Venice Bienalle. He is reckoned to be one of the country's most | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
politically engaged artists. In the past, his work has touched on | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
subjects as divergent as the miners' strike and Depeche Mode. His new | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
exhibition, which opens this weekend in Manchester, tackles the | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
Industrial Revolution and its resonances today. Ahead of it we | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
asked him to make a film with us. Here's a taste of it. You can see | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
the full version on our website. If you're as puzzled as I was, Jeremy | :32:56. | :32:57. | |
will be here afterwards to explain! you're as puzzled as I was, Jeremy | :32:58. | :33:09. | |
Meet Sheffield, smoke and grime. Parliamentary report 1843. Sheffield | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
is one of the dirtiest and most smoky towns I ever saw. One cannot | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
be long in the town without experiencing the necessary | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
inhalation of soot which accumulates in the lungs and its baneful effects | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
are experienced by all who are not accustomed to it. There are however, | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
numbers of persons in Sheffield who think the smoke healthy. | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
numbers of persons in Sheffield who I am not one of them. | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
It always used to get on my nerves when they said Sheffield was a steel | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
city. The first time it hit me, I guess, there was this museum on the | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
outskirts of Sheffield which was a really big rolling mill or | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
something. I was watching this process and suddenly like half-way | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
through it, I started feeling a bit tearful. Imagine being in this big | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
space, a big dark place with all this fire flying around and I mean | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
in a way, you know, it is like you are in hell or something. From that | :34:10. | :34:18. | |
point, I suppose, it made me think don't dish the steel. It gave the | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
Sheffield its personality, you know. I believe that that rock'n'roll | :34:21. | :34:38. | |
liberated people from the post-war generation and heavy metal music | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
became a recreation of the sights and sounds of industry for its young | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
audience, most of whom would never work in a factory. | :34:46. | :34:53. | |
Heavy metal is a Requiem for an industrial culture. A way of coping | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
with its loss. There is a slight awkwardness to it | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
as well. You have these schoolchildren looking smart and | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
they are reading out accounts by children their own age basically of | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
being maltreated in the factory, of having to do harsh jobs and so on. | :35:11. | :35:24. | |
I don't think sing in the dark. I am a trapper in the pit. It does not | :35:24. | :35:31. | |
tire me. I am scared. Sometimes I see when I have a light, but not in | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
the dark. I dare not sing then. I don't like being in the pit. I go to | :35:36. | :35:45. | |
Sunday school and read. I don't know why Jesus came to earth and I don't | :35:45. | :35:52. | |
know why he died. I would like to be at school it is far better than in | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
the pit. I think I would miss the expectations we have now and the | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
confidence in sort of, you know, well, that's not right so we're | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
going to change it, but you would either lose yourself in hopelessness | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
or just sort of know that it wasn't right and have to fight against it | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
because there wasn't anyone listening. | :36:11. | :36:22. | |
This is me with my sisters at the age of six or seven wearing a Slade | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
T-shirt. I was like the biggest Slade fan in the world. For Noddy to | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
come here to my flat and talk about Industrial Revolution. Obviously, | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
when I was six, I knew he would be coming to my flat when I was in my | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
40s, but it is kind of weird for him to be here. How are you? Knackered | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
off them stairs. I can't go up them stairs at my age. It has been said | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
that the Black Country produced a lot of great rock singers, Ozzy | :36:52. | :36:59. | |
Osborne, Robert Plant and they reckon it was to do with the | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
industry and the noise of the reckon it was to do with the | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
factories. What I like about Victorian writing is the fact that | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
the word on the page makes it sound Victorian writing is the fact that | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
like it is, if you are sitting amongst it. This reading is from a | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
description of the Black Country where I'm from by the engineer James | :37:15. | :37:23. | |
Naismith written in 1830. The Black Country is anything but picturesque. | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
The Earth seems to have been turned inside out. Its end trials are | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
strewn about. By day and by night, the country is glowing with fire and | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
smoke of the iron works hovers over it. There is a rumbling and clanking | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
of n forges and rolling mills. it. There is a rumbling and clanking | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
Workmen covered with smut and with fierce wide eyes, are seen moving | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
amongst the glowing iron and the dull thud of forge hammers. | :37:51. | :38:17. | |
Sth is a sound recording afloom from a mill in Lancashire. The rhythms of | :38:17. | :38:26. | |
the factory and dance music are not so far removed. The first acid house | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
parties took place in warehouses and former factories. So where people | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
once worked, they were dancing on the remains of the industrial base. | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
Being deafened by music rather than the machines. | :38:41. | :39:04. | |
Life of a factory boy. In reality, there were no regular hours. Masters | :39:04. | :39:12. | |
and managers did with us as they liked. The clocks at the factories | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
were often put forward in the morning and back at night and | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
instead of being instruments of measurements of time, they were used | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
as cloaks for oppressio Though this was known amongst all hands, all | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
were afraid to speak and the workmen was afraid to carry a watch as it | :39:28. | :39:35. | |
was no uncommon event to dismiss anyone who presumed to know too | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
much. When you are on a zero hours | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
contract, you never really knew your hours. So how get more hours? It is | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
a case of, I go to them. These are the hours I can do. Please give me | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
as many as you can and then they come back to me, but obviously | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
everyone is doing the same thingment we are fighting for the hours. There | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
is only so many hours they can hand out at the shop. So some win, some | :39:59. | :40:07. | |
lose. Cap canon Parkinson, on the | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
conditions of the people in Manchester. | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
I worked in the mill. Me mum worked in the mill. My family always worked | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
in the mills. How is where you have grown up affected your work? Your | :40:18. | :40:25. | |
career? I think it has, it is the main kernel of everything I do. I | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
think of all the choices I make and of everything I do. There is no town | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
in the world where the distance between the rich and the poor is so | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
great. Or the barrier between them so difficult to be crossed. I once | :40:39. | :40:47. | |
ntured to designate the tone of Dunkirk town of Manchester the most | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
aristocratic town in England and in the sense in which the expression | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
was used. There is far less personal communication between the master | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
cotton spinner and his workman than there is between the Duke of | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
Wellington and the humblest labourer on his estate. I mentioned this not | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
as a matter of blame, but I state it simply as a fact. In 1973 the | :41:12. | :41:22. | |
wrestler went back to the mine he worked in as a young person and had | :41:22. | :41:29. | |
his photograph taken request his -- and had his photograph taken. There | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
is an image of a tense relationship between father and son, but this is | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
the most important photograph taken after the war as it shows a country | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
trying to come to terms with itself, with its new role in world being | :41:41. | :41:48. | |
based on services and entertainment. 100 years before, in 1873, a song | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
was written about what the future might be like. Now they tell us this | :41:53. | :42:00. | |
world is now at an end # But who prove to its country is | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
what I intend # In a song I wrote in you will see | :42:03. | :42:09. | |
# Everyone will be rich, there will be no need to beg | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
# No stump up and down with an old wooden leg | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
# In your limbs are blown off, the doctors will replace your new ones | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
with ease # The children will feed them with | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
nutmegs and they will grow to such a size you can tell | :42:25. | :42:31. | |
# They can look down into hell # Oh dear, oh dear, what things you | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
will s # Well, Jeremy Deller is here now. | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
What is it really that fascinates you about Industrial Revolution? | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
I think it was a time of immense change. We were the first country to | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
industrialise and then we were the first to deindustrialise so we have | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
industrialise and then we were the seen the spectrum of that and it | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
affected us of how we live now in our cities and culture and music and | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
diet. We are creatures of the Industrial | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
Revolution, aren't we? Yes. Do you think we have lost anything | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
as a consequence of deindustrialising in this country? I | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
think we have probably lost communal values and beliefs, but also we have | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
lost very poor working conditions. I think maybe we have lost some part | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
of our identity. That's maybe one thing. | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
The fact is that in the days when we had a manufacturing industry after | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
Industrial Revolution, we made things. We don't really make things | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
anymore, do we? No, we don't. We tried. I mean we have tried since | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
and obviously to make other things. I mean, we have worked in services | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
and digital economy and that's where a lot of people are employed. That | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
woman worked in a shop. We have tried to, like I said, we were the | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
first to deindustrialise, we have tried to work out what to do with | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
ourselves as a nation. The woman you talked to in that | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
film, who was on a zero hours contract. Are you making a | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
comparison there about employment conditions? I think in a way, I am. | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
I think people, obviously she has few rights because of the contract | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
she is on and you see, obviously in Industrial Revolution, workers had | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
no rights and there seems to be that might be happening. That maybe | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
creeping back with employers getting the upper hand on employees. And | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
making your working conditions less stable and that's what she spoke to | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
us about. As you know, this end of the media, | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
we only ask two questions about art, one is it art? Who is it wor it? Why | :44:33. | :44:42. | |
is an experience like this that you have put together, you have curated, | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
I suppose... Yeah. Why is it art? Well, it might not | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
be, but if you want it to be art, it can be art. Art is just another way | :44:49. | :44:55. | |
of looking at the world and doing something different from how a | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
traditional curator would do something. My show mixes things up. | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
It feels like that as well. So it is just a different way of doing | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
something. But if people don't think it is art, it doesn't bother me, as | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
long as they like what they see or are stimulated by it. That's | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
important. This isn't drawing or painting or | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
sculpture or anything? No. No. Within the show there are those | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
things, but no, I'm just putting these together and showing them in | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
an unusual way. And why is that art? Well, like I | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
said, it might not be. It is just something I find interesting. It is | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
where my skill, if that's the right word, lies is in taking a things and | :45:33. | :45:40. | |
putting them together in these ways. But it can be art. | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
Is it possible this sort of exercise without public funding? Yeah. It is. | :45:45. | :45:51. | |
This is publicly funded. Lots of things are possible without public | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
funding believe me. Do you think the State plays too big | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
a role in the funding of the arts? Not at all. I am glad the State has | :45:57. | :46:03. | |
a role in funding of art. Like the American model, if you leave it to | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
private people with money, it tends to change the nature of the art | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
that's made and it, there is like a lack of balance within the art world | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
because of that. What do you mean? Well, you just end | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
up with things that might please a certain kind of person and might not | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
question certain things and a more in line with those people's tastes | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
rather than the general tastes. Jeremy Deller, thanks. Come back | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
soon. Thank you. | :46:30. | :46:37. | |
The BBC's Director-General announced plans for a BBC One Plus One channel | :46:37. | :46:44. | |
that broadcasts what was on BBC One an hour ago! Not to be outdone, and | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
always looking to please the boss, tonight we launch our own Newsnight | :46:48. | :46:55. | |
Plus One channel. Here we were an hour ago! Good night. | :46:55. | :47:01. |