Browse content similar to 14/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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18,000 Poles will pitch up to support their national football team | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
at Wembley tomorrow. Brussels says we should welcome East European | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
migrants. The Government says too many have access to benefits. So are | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
these young Poles the star players for our economy's future or should | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
we instead worry about overseas signings idling on the bench? | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
50 years after Please Please Me, Paul McCartney is still at it, with | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
a new album, but why might kids today listen to old people's music? | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
The generation gap that opened in the 1960s wasn't one of many, it was | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
unique. The Russian man blamed for murdering | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
this Russian lawyer in a Russian prison sues for defamation in | :00:49. | :01:01. | |
Britain and loses. What is good art? How do you know? Grayson Perry | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
sprinkles stardust on the Raith lectures and on us. | :01:07. | :01:13. | |
Good evening. The received wisdom about Polish | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
immigrants in particular is that they are prepared to work like | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
Trojans, but according to a report by the European Commission published | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
today in 2012 there were more than 600,000 economically non active EU | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
migrants in Britain. Although that figure includes children, pensioners | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
and students. Those who are eligible for work are also eligible for | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
benefits under something called the habitual residence test and the | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
Government say it is determined to tighten the test. The EU says fewer | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
migrants make use of public services compared with the native population | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
so is immigration the best way to drive the economy or is it a drain | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
on the public purse? Here's Allan Little. | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
In some South London parks the football coaching is in Polish. | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
The children are born to Polish parents and into a community at the | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
heart of a very British and very enduring anxiety. There are 1.7 | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
million migrants from the EU living in Britain. There will be so many | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
Poles at tomorrow's match that it will feel more like a local derby | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
than an England home game. For the 18,000 Polish fans, won't be | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
visitors, they will be locals. So were you born here? Yes. So when you | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
grow up, you could play football for Poland or England? Yes. | :02:31. | :02:38. | |
Which would you prefer? England. We are from Poland. | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
They maybe from Poland, but it takes less than a generation for new, | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
hybrid national identities to settle and take root. This generation are | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
as British as they are Polish, but it is not so easy for recent | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
arrivals to claim benefits. You can't get off the bus and walk into | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
the dole office. You have to demonstrate that you are actually | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
resident here, by meeting the conditions of the Government's | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
so-called residency test. The European Commission wants that test | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
scrapped because it says it discriminates against non-British | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
nationals. And it is taking a the British Government to court to try | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
to force the issue. Our own oi I assessments -- our own | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
assessments does stop people claiming benefits that could | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
otherwise be working and not being on benefits and the commission are | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
trying to get us to change that and I am refusing. | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
The European Commission is taking a the UK to court and is taking a | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
legal proceedings. What will the consequences with if | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
that's successful? If the UK were to lose that right to reside, the test | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
case, I think there would be a real concern that the UK's safeguards for | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
its welfare system would be watered down and that has practical | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
implications. While welfare tourism isn't a problem at the moment, it | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
might increase the incentives for minorities to abuse the system. It | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
would be a huge PR disaster from the European Union. Immigration is a | :04:08. | :04:09. | |
sensitive issue. The European Commission says | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
so-called benefit tourism in Britain is exaggerated. But the commission | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
itself has released a report that reveals that the number of EU | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
migrants here who are not economically active is surprisingly | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
high. Nearly one in three. In the UK there are over 600,000 so-called EU | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
non actives, that's 1. 2% of the population. The average across | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
Europe is 1%. The study looked at healthcare spending. On average, | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
European countries spend 0.2% of their health budgets on non active | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
EU migrants. In Britain the figures rises to between 0.7% and 0.1%. The | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
study found immigration flows are linked to economic factors. There | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
was an crease in France, German at UK, but numbers fell in Ireland, | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
Spain and Italy where the economy was hit harder by the crash. | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
Most European migrants here work and pay their taxes. You are still less | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
likely to be unemployed if you are a mids grant than if you were born | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
here. Even so, one British newspaper called the EU Commissioner who is | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
taking a Britain to court the EU mandarin fighting for pay outs to | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
migrants. Today, he told me that was nonsense. | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
It is very important to interpret the figures correctly. We should not | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
call the non actives unemployed because the real figure for | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
unemployed EU migrants in the United Kingdom is around 60,000. So it is a | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
relatively low number. There are many people who are non active. They | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
might be family members of active people who are in employment in the | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
UK and this is legitimate. There is no doubt though about | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
public opinion. All the poles show there is a growing feeling that it | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
the Government is not in control of immigration. That could further | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
damage the case for Britain as a member of the European Union and it | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
might also compromise the public's long-term confidence in a welfare | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
system that is based on universal entitlement. For that he system, of | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
welfare for all at the point of need, was designed to serve the | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
Britain of the 1940s. Can it endure in the more globalised, more mobile, | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
more open and borderless 21st century that this generation | :06:39. | :06:39. | |
inherits? Raab is a Conservative MP who has | :06:40. | :06:51. | |
written about benefit tourism. Jonathan Portes is director of the | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
National Institute for Economic and Social Research and Magda Harvey, a | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
polish entrepreneur, who runs the Polish Specialities delicatessen. | :06:58. | :06:59. | |
The Government never produced any hard evidence that benefit tourism | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
is a problem? There is no hard data and that's part of the problem. | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
Whether it is the 60,000 estimated EU nationals claiming Jobseeker's | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
Allowance or the 600,000 economically inactive, the British | :07:13. | :07:14. | |
taxpayer is spending billions on welfare for a rising number of EU | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
migrants. Now, my view is look... What makes you so sure that incoming | :07:21. | :07:29. | |
migrants are more likely to claim on benefit than existing British | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
nationals? What you do is end up stoking this? We have statistics. | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
Look, I have got no doubt. I am the son of a he Czech father and my wife | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
is Brazilian. The majority of people who come from abroad, contribute. We | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
have a home-grown depend ovensy problem, but that's irrelevant. If | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
you are a British taxpayer and the British public, you want to attract | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
people who come here with something to contribute. But you want to limit | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
those who aren't and we can do both and that's what this debate ought to | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
be about and we shouldn't shy away from it. | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
If somebody comes well qualified from an Eastern European country. | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
There is resentment against somebody who is from the UK and they get it? | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
I don't believe they will go to a strange country and claim benefit | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
straightaway. They can't claim benefit unless they prove residency? | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
I don't people are really migrating to claim benefits. First of all, | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
they are emigrating to look for the jobs and if they don't see the | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
chance, a fair chance of getting the job, they wouldn't go to the | :08:43. | :08:44. | |
country. When you saw the statistics there of | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
health spending, it is more in Britain than in other European | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
countries on migrant workers? Well, I don't know how those statistics | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
are being worked out because whenever I go to hospital and nobody | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
is asking me really what nationality I am, and from my experience most of | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
the, I will talk about the Poles, most Poles when they go to visit the | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
families or go back to Poland, they go for the health check over there. | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
Not here. Unfortunately, we don't believe in the British health | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
system. We have got a situation where there | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
is lots of British retirees in Spain draining the Spanish system as well? | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
Well, the fact of the matter, if you compare, I think people are | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
attracted by jobs here. Unemployment is lower here than in Poland. Wages | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
are higher and also in work benefits are high. If you compare child | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
benefit, it is four times more generous here. | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
We have got 600, according this this report from the EU, we have got | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
600,000 people... Including pensioners, students and children? | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
People who are economically inactive using the NHS. And that's 50% | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
higher... How do you, it is a difficult thing to do, isn't it? To | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
decide how you stop certain people coming. Presumably, they are the | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
engine of the economy? We are not talking about necessarily the same | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
people. Potentially the engine of the economy. But what would you | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
actually do? How would you do it? Well, you want to have a | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
points-based system and we will probably find we have to move | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
towards a sort of contributions based approach to both welfare and | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
NHS... So that means a change in European law? No, that wouldn't. The | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
Germans have something more akin to that. I think at EU law level, if | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
you ask the British people, the number one thing they would like to | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
see renegotiated in Britain's relationship with the EU is the free | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
movement rules so this that we have this conditionality. We want to | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
attract the best and the brightest, but we want them to be self reliant. | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
Is there a sense that European migrants are now feeling that they | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
are not wanted? I think it has always been that that migrants were | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
not wanted. But they were always used and they were useful. That's | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
why they were coming and from my point of view, I think that there | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
are many positive migrants who are coming here to work and they are | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
paying their taxes and I am very much for the benefits only for | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
people who contribute to the economy. I am against people who are | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
going abroad and claiming benefits or even in their own country, | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
claiming benefits and not contributing to the society if they | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
don't pay taxes, they can't claim. Thank you very much indeed. | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
Today the Nobel committee gave their prize in economics to three | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
different economists. One for proving that markers is always | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
rational and efficient and a third who proved it was impossible to | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
tell. I spoke to one of them. He was the one who thought markets weren't | :12:07. | :12:15. | |
always rational. Congratulations. Thank you. | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
What are we meant to think when we think of this prize. Three | :12:21. | :12:28. | |
economists each of whom contradict the other? Well, notably one is | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
famous for testing and rejecting some of his own models. We are in | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
con currency on kosh concurrence on that. It is a difference in | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
philosophy and how you interpret problems. The Chicago School of | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
People think there must be a good explanation for anything that looks | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
anomalous and it is hard to prove that wrong. It becomes an underlying | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
philosophical difference. You take a different view? I am | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
married to a psychologist! That has affected me! Do you think that in | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
economics it is actually ever possible to be absolutely right? | :13:19. | :13:26. | |
Well, Marshall said economics is not an exact science and there is a deep | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
wisdom in what he said, the problem with economics we are describing | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
people and people, they change their mind. There is something about | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
people that is different from any physical phenomenon. They can do it | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
despite you and change their mind and do something different. | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
One thing you did predict was the howing bubble -- housing bubble. | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
What's the your prediction, will it happen again? In London and Los | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
Angeles, we are seeing markets heating up. There is a question of | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
whether it will happen again and I couldn't rule it out. I think people | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
have got more speculative in their thinking and they could make | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
something like that happen. Here, we are seeing as you say, | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
things hotting up and the Government is giving cheap money. I mean very | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
cheap money for house buyers and money up to ?600,000. People are | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
embracing it. It is as if, well let's get going again. Gung that | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
then holds the -- do you think that then holds the danger of a housing | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
bubble in London? When you have easy credit that helps promote a bubble. | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
I just don't think that the public is as gullible this time. It won't | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
be as bad this time. But it does look like, I know the US better. It | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
looks somewhat like a bubblement prices are going up fast and there | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
are some enthusiasts who are excited. It is just not, I think | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
what we saw that led to this crisis was a rarity. A once-in-a-lifetime | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
big event. That's my guess. It won't be as big. | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
Let's do guessing then about the US Government defoughting on Thursday | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
or -- defaulting on Thursday or not. What's your best guess? The last | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
time we came close was in 2011 and Congress agreed in the last minute | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
and then it still resulted however in a default, not a default, a | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
downgrading of our US debt and a lot of turmoil in the markets. Every | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
time, it is different. My guess is they won't default and even if they | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
did, it would be short-term. It would be corrected soon. A short | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
default as it were holds no dangers for America or the world? The | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
American people would be upset to see that happen. It is a matter of | :15:53. | :16:00. | |
honour and if it dz are did -- if it does happen, it will have some | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
damage, but I am thinking that it will probably be corrected soon | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
enough that it is something for the history books. That means people | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
won't remember it as a major default. It might have been a delay | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
over a couple of days or something and it will be forgotten. Thank you | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
very much indeed. My pleasure. | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
50 years after the first Beatles album in 1963 Paul McCartney | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
releases his 16th solo album titled New. It is his first album of new | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
songs in six years. It coincides with the publication of a door | :16:37. | :16:43. | |
stopper of a new biography about The Beatles by mark. Since then the | :16:44. | :16:58. | |
yawning generation gap that was exposed has closed. At least that is | :16:59. | :17:06. | |
what Danny Finkelstein thinks. We asked him to explain. | :17:07. | :17:24. | |
# She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah # I thought it was horrific and | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
nauseating because it was in the true sense barbaric. | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
It was a massive social upheaval. It was the start of an era, the pop | :17:33. | :17:40. | |
era. The 60s was not just a musical revolution, but a cultural and | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
political one too. Come on in. This year, when Margaret | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
Thatcher died it was the last in a long line of Prime Ministers whose | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
politics were shaped by their experience as adults of a Second | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
World War. Now we live in a consumer culture framed by the 60s, whose | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
music and politics were forever changed by what happened after The | :18:02. | :18:15. | |
Beatles released their first LP. Pop music began in Liverpool because | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
it was a port town and the first place to get new records from | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
America. This revolution was about teenage prosperity, new mass | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
communications technology, demographics and a post-war baby | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
boom which tipped social power to the young. There was the end of | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
National Service, there was the start of globalisation. It is very | :18:35. | :18:42. | |
hard to overestimate The Beatles importance. They were working class | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
which was almost unheard of and before The Beatles you had Billy | :18:48. | :18:55. | |
Furey and he wouldn't speak because he was scared people wouldn't | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
understand a word he was saying and The Beatles sounded as Scouse as | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
they could. They worked in so many different areas. They were | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
experimental. Every record they made was an advance of the previous one. | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
Pop culture broke class barriers and lapped at the feet of traditional | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
institutions and was the soundtrack for sexual liberation and what it | :19:23. | :19:30. | |
changed as form, kept on inhib baiting, but didn't go away. Here is | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
the great pop artist, Peter Blake. It is like a love shop. People said | :19:36. | :19:45. | |
why do you stick the things on? Why don't you paint them? When I paint | :19:46. | :19:53. | |
them, they say why do you bother to paint them, why didn't you just | :19:54. | :20:07. | |
stick them on? Some of the student antics of the | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
60s may look absurd now. We believe in the appropriation of private | :20:15. | :20:23. | |
property. It is just, these are the bare essentials. | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
The end of difference was here to stay. | :20:28. | :20:40. | |
In the 60s, even once the power of pop culture had become clear, the | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
idea was that a generation gap had opened, they would keep repeating | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
itself, each generation would find their parents baffling and their | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
musical taste terrible. The pop stars of the 60, people like | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
McCartney would stop making records and touring, a rockstar couldn't be | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
over 30. Decades later, things look different. The generation gap that | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
opened in the 1960s wasn't as it turned out one of many, it was | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
unique. A gap had opened up that separated those whose main political | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
cultural point of reference was the Second World War from us. From those | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
whose main political cultural point of reference was the pop culture of | :21:20. | :21:34. | |
the 1960s and after. Had has been a hard day's night # | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
The music of the 60s have survived. Young people, teenagers, listened to | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
the Beatles and politics has been forever changed. The generational | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
shift in the 60s was greater than anything we have seen since. You | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
could look at punk or Margaret Thatcher coming to power and huge | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
cultural jumps. The 60s, it feels like everything happened at the same | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
time. Pop art. The world of the popular | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
imagination. The world of film stars. | :22:12. | :22:20. | |
Politics is as much generational as ideological. We are all children of | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
the 60s. This idea if you use contraceptives, you are likely to | :22:28. | :22:34. | |
run off and have affairs with everybody. It was just ridiculous. | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
There was a generation gap, but just one and we live on the other side of | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
it. We are all the same in which everybody lives whether we like it | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
or not. To talk about that film is Danny | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
Finkelstein himself. Danny, surely there is a massive difference | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
between the generation and the generation of the 60s. They have no | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
knowledge of the Cold War, the fall of the Berlin Wall, Margaret | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
Thatcher. Now, it is the internet. We didn't have that? No one, is | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
arguing there haven't been any changes. The question is whether or | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
not the frame of reference was set by that extremely powerful change. | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
If you look at the politicians whose life experience was before the 1960s | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
who became adults and distinguish between them and the politician who | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
came afterwards, you can see this big change in social class, it is | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
not just the question of issues, but in attitudes and in social, in the | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
social atmosphere. Do you see that after the 50s, it | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
made a massive difference. The recline of religion? The more I | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
think about it, the more I agree with you. A lot of the changes were | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
short-lived and flaky. The whole Beatlemania and notion it issued -- | :23:59. | :24:06. | |
ushered in this sexually permissive era. There were changes, but those | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
were mainly to do with the pill and to do with women working and the | :24:10. | :24:18. | |
rhetoric around free love and communes. That was limited to a | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
particular part of society? It was short-lived. Some of our parents | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
were in that mould. Most of our parents weren't. | :24:29. | :24:41. | |
Was your mum a hippie? My mum was a bit bo-ho, my dad was a lot bo-ho. | :24:42. | :24:51. | |
I don't think the actual rhetoric of the time really amounted to very | :24:52. | :24:53. | |
much. Do you think now that there is going | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
to be, what will be a defining gap will be what happened over the last | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
three or four years and drinking at the well of everything the parents | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
left empty would be the crash and the recession. This generation are | :25:07. | :25:16. | |
suffering because of the excesses and of the previous generation? I | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
think politics is very much generational. So even quite small | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
changes in generation make quite a big difference in politics and you | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
can look at the way generations develop and understand more about | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
politics probably than just by looking at ideas. However, I think | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
when you have got to look at big cohorts and one of the reasons why | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
the 60s made a difference is because of the demotics, the baby boom. One | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
of the points made in the book about The Beatles, National Service ended | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
before The Beatles made their first appearance and so they were the | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
first generation that didn't go into the Army. That made a big difference | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
to their whole way of looking at work. | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
-- at the world. People are less likely to vote | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
tribally. That's a big change. There is more of a break down of those | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
kind of lines? Because of a consumer society rather than a producer one | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
pcht We always talk about the baby boomers and we adescribe the fact | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
there is a massive gap of wealth between one again raugs and the | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
next, but really the baby boomers were as you showed with the clip, | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
incredibly well-versed in very radical political thought and what | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
really divided the generations in terms of their money is a | :26:37. | :26:45. | |
neoliberal, end of ideology. What about the riots though? The riots | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
are the end point of this. What do you do when your identity is rooted | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
in your consumption, but you have got nothing to consume with? Well, | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
maybe that's the thing that binds the generation. The idea that we | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
live, there is a neoliberal society, but it is fine to be consumers... | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
When you look at the fact that all the money is locked into one | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
generation's housing and everybody else from below 30 on wards is | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
struggling because we are not all consumers. | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
It was the beginning of money and... Ah, but he wasn't to know. You can | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
look at the p ideas and the antics were ridiculous, but it is very | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
important that the 1960s left us with tolerance and it left us with | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
gay rights and opened up and broke down class barriers and opened up | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
markets. I think, you know, that's one of my arguments that consumer | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
capitalism and social liberalism went together and they were all | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
produced by this generational shift. If you look at when Please Please | :27:48. | :27:55. | |
came out. 50 years ago. From that 50 year period there were two world | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
wars and massive change. It seems extraordinary in that 50 year period | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
and now Paul McCartney is still making records. If you look at the | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
break down of class barriers. The reason it seemed so radical at the | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
time, the reason there was this fixed, if you sound a certain way | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
you won't be allowed into the public domain. Actual financial inequality | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
wasn't that great, but now it is so great there is no problem with | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
people from whatever class because there are so many other ways to keep | :28:25. | :28:33. | |
them out. Tom Iran talks about its nuclear | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
weapons. With a thaw in relations two America and the new Iranian | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
president. Mark urban is there. The weight of expectation is massive, | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
presumably? It is big. Particularly after the visit to the UN last month | :28:50. | :29:05. | |
by president roe handy. -- Rohani. Despite that, there is a lot of | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
people in the foreign policy establishments of the UK, US, who | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
have been expressing scepticism. Who have been saying look is this just a | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
PR drive or are we going to see something substantially different? | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
Tomorrow morning around 9.30 to 10am, the Foreign Minister of Iran | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
will walk into to the building in Geneva and present this new Iranian | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
plan. At that point we should know, not the deal, but we should know the | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
direction of travel and whether there is a real desire to make | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
compromises on the Iranian side. But do we know anything about this | :29:43. | :29:51. | |
new plan? Any tit-bits? Well, certain things have been talked | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
about. There is a three phase plan. They have also defined certain | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
things negatively. They have said it is a red line and they don't want | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
any of their enriched uranium removed from the country. One thing | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
is clear is that the old type of negotiations in which the west was | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
trying to shut down this programme or remove the enriched uranium or | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
get someone else to do the enrichment is not on the table. What | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
this is about is trying to row back the Iranian programme from where it | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
is now and get it under tight international control. It would seem | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
the Iranians understand this. That officials are expecting a meaningful | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
proposal to be made tomorrow. That's one of the reasons John Kerry was in | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
London today trying to almost anticipate the Iranian position and | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
that some form of deeper negotiati will begin, but we will get the true | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
sense of direction tomorrow and Wednesday. | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
Thank you very much, Mark. Bill Turnbull | :30:56. | :30:57. | |
Bill Browder is not welcome in Russia unless behind bars. He has | :30:58. | :31:08. | |
been sentenced to nine years for tax evasion for which he denies. Mr | :31:09. | :31:18. | |
Browder has listed 60 Russian officials he holds responsible for | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
the death. Today a British judge throughout a case for libel. | :31:22. | :31:31. | |
A mistierious death in a Moscow jail. Four years on it has done much | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
to poison relations between Russia and the west. T. | :31:39. | :31:53. | |
He wasn't a rights campaigner. He was a tax lawyer jailed after he | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
exposed a fraud worth $230 million that he said involved police and | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
other State officials. His employer claimed the lawyer was jailed and | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
then killed to cover-up the scam. He campaigned for a Bill now passed | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
into law banning Russian officials involved in the death from entering | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
the United States. That plainly infuriated President | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
Putin. In response, Russia has imposed | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
similar sanctions on some American officials and this year, it tried a | :32:32. | :32:45. | |
defendant. Browder's online campaign continues with this police officer | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
accused. The same officers arrested and tortured and killed Sergi. | :32:51. | :33:05. | |
This man denied the charges and sued Browder's company for libel. It is | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
one thing to allege the police officer was part of a tax fraud and | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
another to suggest that he was directly involved in the torture and | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
murder of the whistle-blower. The judge ruled today the companies had | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
not come close to proed vieding sufficient evidence. The case turned | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
on another issue. The justification for hearing the claim in an English | :33:28. | :33:38. | |
court. One side argued it wasn't libel tourism. The judge said the | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
claimant's connection with this country is resid uous. There is a | :33:45. | :33:53. | |
degree of artificiality about his seeking to protect his reputation. | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
The British courts will no longer be he -- no be longer used to halt free | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
speech. Officials from any countries around the world cannot come to the | :34:06. | :34:13. | |
UK on a libel tourism. The so-called investigators lock | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
people up here. Many questions remain about the | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
case. The Kremlin's reaction served only to put the Russian State in the | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
dock. That State seems determined to seek revenge on its accusers. Above | :34:29. | :34:35. | |
all, on William Browder. Well, joining me now is Bill | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
Browder. It wasn't a great day in court for you, the judge said that | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
you did not have the evidence? I view it as a fantastic day in court | :34:48. | :34:54. | |
today. The judge kicked out a case of libel tourism. This guy shouldn't | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
have been suing us in the first place here. | :35:00. | :35:01. | |
He did make it clear that he didn't think you had the evidence you | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
needed? It comes down to a very simple paragraph in the judgement. | :35:07. | :35:14. | |
The judge said we couldn't prove he was the guy who beat Sergi and we | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
never said he was the guy who beat Sergi. The judge did say in his | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
ruling if this had gone to court, he would have aloud us to -- allowed us | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
to resubmit our claim to say he was a member of a criminal group. | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
Well, you have questions over how he can afford this libel, a retired | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
police officer? Well, so let's take a step back. Here you have a police | :35:44. | :35:51. | |
officer. He earned ?6,000 a -- $6,000 a year as a police officer. | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
He hired the most expensive QC and solicitor in the country costing | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
millions, millions to sue people and I was one of his victims as well as | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
many others to sue his victims in a foreign country. How is that? It | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
kind of shows in one way if you are right, the Russians will not let | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
this lie and indeed, they won't let it lie because they want you | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
extradited and serve nine years on a conviction of tax evasion. You can't | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
travel to Sweden for example, can you? You are too worried you would | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
be extradited? We got the Act passed in America which passes asset | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
freezes who are involved in this case and many other cases. The | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
Russian Government got furious and they have convicted Sergi and I was | :36:45. | :36:52. | |
his codefendant and they convicted me for nine years. You have had | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
death threats, haven't you? I have had death threats and libel suits | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
and extradition, everything you can think of. The Russians are so, Putin | :37:02. | :37:10. | |
is so agitated because we found the Achilles heel of this regime which | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
is they steal money and they stole $230 million. A young lawyer exposed | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
it and then he was killed in prison for exposing it. They steal money | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
and so we found their Achilles heel which is let's make sure the money | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
is frozen in the west and that's what makes Putin terrified. | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
Is there a sense in which you are pursuing this because you feel so | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
responsibility for your colleague's death? Of, course. If he hadn't been | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
my lawyer, he would be alive and that weight sits on my shoulders | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
every day and that's what drives me every day to get justice for this | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
man. And what extent will you go to get | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
justice? I will go to the end. Would you ever do something that | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
would put yourself in danger? The only way I will get justice if I | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
stay alive and stay out of prison. So I will stay alive and stay out of | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
prison. I will keep on fighting this to make sure the people who killed | :38:10. | :38:19. | |
Sergi face justice. What makes art? When is it good? And | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
how do we know when it's good? These are some of the questions being | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
posed by the, by turns, flamboyant, playful and provocative artist, | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
Grayson Perry, who is delivering this year's Reith lectures. The | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
Turner Prize winning potter sets out to demystify the often exclusive and | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
impenetrable art world and isn't afraid to have a pop at contemporary | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
art. For example, calling Tate Modern a cult entertainment | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
megastore. He believes that art is a visual medium, usually made by the | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
artist's hand, that is a pleasure to make, to look at and to show others. | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
He has recorded the lectures in different venues and I hazard a | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
guess is perhaps the only Reithian to have received a raucous standing | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
ovation. There is one message I want the lectures to carry. It is that | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
anybody can enjoy art. Anybody can have a life in the arts. Even me! An | :39:06. | :39:21. | |
Essex trance estite potter. I have never been afraid of being a | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
part of the establishment. To be outside of it, my third lecture is | :39:26. | :39:33. | |
called Nice Rebellion Welcome In. It absorbs it. It punches itself in the | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
face, the art world. You seem to be saying to people, | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
come in, don't be afraid of art. You say it is not easy, you can't know | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
what art is? Yeah, I don't know much about football. You wouldn't ask me | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
to choose the England football team. When someone goes into an art | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
gallery and they know nothing about art, their opinion is, you know, not | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
the same as someone who has been looking at all -- at art their life. | :39:59. | :40:08. | |
How do people educate themselves? By looking and learning and reading and | :40:09. | :40:10. | |
listening. If you were naturally, you don't | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
know much about art and you go in and you are in a gallery and you are | :40:15. | :40:22. | |
faced a Monet and the Tate bricks, are you drawn as setically? The one | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
thing I want to say to people, you don't have to like it all. But it | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
might be that when you learn more about the bricks and the history of | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
art and where it stands and the context and the narrative of it and | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
then you will start to understand what the bricks mean. The urinal is | :40:39. | :40:53. | |
a different kind of art. You don't have to like it all, you know. I | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
mean, I like much of the 20th century modernism and I like some of | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
what is made todayks but at any one point in our history, most of what | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
is being made is rubbish and it was ever thus. If you go back 100 or 200 | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
years, most of the art was poor quality and all the stuff from the | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
past, the bad stuff has been filtered out. The trouble is we can | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
now see the other stuff that's being made now. We can go this week to | :41:27. | :41:37. | |
Freeze Art Fair. Do you think we are coming to the | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
end of art? The end of change in art. You seem to be suggesting that | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
at one of your lectures? You had modernism starting in the late 19th | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
century and started to fizzle out around the 60s and 70s. Now we are | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
in a state where some people call it the end of art. Where you can do | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
anything and formally, in terms of what you can make as art, what you | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
declare as art, you can do anything. But there are still boundaries. I | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
talk about that in one of the lecturesment I say the boundaries | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
are social, economical. It is about the context. Who is looking at it. | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
Where it is. And who is buying it. You are | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
detailed. You make really interesting arguments about the | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
xhodification of art and how it is suddenly regarded as valuable and | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
six months later, not valuable anymore. I am fascinated by negative | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
equity in the art world and it is not talked about a lot. There is a | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
point where an artist is almost too big to fail and he is supported or | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
she is supported by the galleries and by collectors. It is like | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
everybody in the room is blowing up to keep the balloon up in the air. | :42:53. | :43:00. | |
There is what they call costs bias. There is artists lower down the | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
pecking order that might be pricey who disappear out of view and the | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
people who bought their work write off the money. | :43:11. | :43:18. | |
Do you think that edifice of art is what puts people off? It seems so | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
far away from their daily lives that art doesn't have the same meaning to | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
them? The thing is unlike music or literature or film there is not such | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
a dominating popular wing. On the whole it tends to be mainly about | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
the high end and the difficult. That's the sort of quirk. That's | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
what we have ended up. There is popular art, of course, there is. It | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
doesn't have, you know, the kind of curve of art is very top endy as | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
opposed to music where it is very bottom endy. | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
Do you want more people to enjoy art? Do you think there is a problem | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
in this country that not enough people enjoy art or feel comfortable | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
with it? 5.3 million people go through the doors to Tate Modern | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
every year. You think it is some big | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
entertainment box? It might be because it is on the tourist trail. | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
But I think, I would really enjoy the art world. I really enjoy art | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
and I want to pass that on. It is something you can work at and | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
compared to when I started in the art world people are much more | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
knowledgeable. There is more in the media. Me being on Newsnight is | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
something you wouldn't have had an artist on Newsnight in the past. | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
Artists can be social commentators and you are thought of as a social | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
commentator or as well? Because I enjoy the media and it is something | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
I have chosen to do. It is an option open to people in the creative | :44:51. | :44:57. | |
industry. The idea of creating by your own hand. It has been an | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
argument that artists have assistants. Is it the business of it | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
which is not having an artist to put the clouds into the Sistene Chapel. | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
The thing is the work by the assistant is part of the | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
commercialisation of the art? A lot of artists, they have a lot of | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
assistants because there is demand for their work and they couldn't | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
pull fill the market, the desire for their work so you know, museums | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
around the world all want a piece of a certain artist's work so they get | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
loads of assistants and they make a lot of works and hay press toe. They | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
make a lot of money. Does that devalue the art? It | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
depends on the artist. Some arthist -- artist, they are saying this is | :45:48. | :45:55. | |
part of my work. I churn it out. You are a work of art? No, I declare | :45:56. | :46:09. | |
myself not a work of art! Grayson Perry's first Reith lecture | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
can be heard at 9am on Radio 4. While it's on air, you can join in | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
the debate via Will Gompertz's live blog and, of course, on Twitter. The | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
hashtag, not surprisingly, is Reith. Tom's front page is the care home | :46:20. | :46:27. | |
stories. Cutting green taxes may raise energy bills warns Clegg. | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
Syria linked to terrorist arrest in London raids. The Financial Times, | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
London opens door to Chinese bank. Tory peer hits out at GCHQ's online | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
spying. That's the Queen. | :46:48. | :46:50. | |
Well, that's it for tonight. Jeremy is here tomorrow. We leave you with | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
a little of the movie Gravity which has come from nowhere to take $100 | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
million since its release ten days ago in the United States. | :47:03. | :47:17. | |
Unusually for a Hollywood science fiction film, it is depiction of a | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
disaster in earth's orbit has even been praised for its occasional | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
adherence to the laws of physics. Good night. | :47:28. | :47:44. | |
Listen to my voice. You need to focus. Detach. I can't see you | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
anymore. Do it now. Good evening. | :47:50. | :48:13. | |
Well, as far as Tuesday goes, | :48:14. | :48:14. |