14/10/2013 Newsnight


14/10/2013

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18,000 Poles will pitch up to support their national football team

:00:00.:00:09.

at Wembley tomorrow. Brussels says we should welcome East European

:00:10.:00:13.

migrants. The Government says too many have access to benefits. So are

:00:14.:00:18.

these young Poles the star players for our economy's future or should

:00:19.:00:21.

we instead worry about overseas signings idling on the bench?

:00:22.:00:26.

50 years after Please Please Me, Paul McCartney is still at it, with

:00:27.:00:29.

a new album, but why might kids today listen to old people's music?

:00:30.:00:36.

The generation gap that opened in the 1960s wasn't one of many, it was

:00:37.:00:45.

unique. The Russian man blamed for murdering

:00:46.:00:48.

this Russian lawyer in a Russian prison sues for defamation in

:00:49.:01:01.

Britain and loses. What is good art? How do you know? Grayson Perry

:01:02.:01:06.

sprinkles stardust on the Raith lectures and on us.

:01:07.:01:13.

Good evening. The received wisdom about Polish

:01:14.:01:18.

immigrants in particular is that they are prepared to work like

:01:19.:01:21.

Trojans, but according to a report by the European Commission published

:01:22.:01:25.

today in 2012 there were more than 600,000 economically non active EU

:01:26.:01:32.

migrants in Britain. Although that figure includes children, pensioners

:01:33.:01:35.

and students. Those who are eligible for work are also eligible for

:01:36.:01:38.

benefits under something called the habitual residence test and the

:01:39.:01:41.

Government say it is determined to tighten the test. The EU says fewer

:01:42.:01:46.

migrants make use of public services compared with the native population

:01:47.:01:49.

so is immigration the best way to drive the economy or is it a drain

:01:50.:01:53.

on the public purse? Here's Allan Little.

:01:54.:01:56.

In some South London parks the football coaching is in Polish.

:01:57.:02:01.

The children are born to Polish parents and into a community at the

:02:02.:02:07.

heart of a very British and very enduring anxiety. There are 1.7

:02:08.:02:10.

million migrants from the EU living in Britain. There will be so many

:02:11.:02:13.

Poles at tomorrow's match that it will feel more like a local derby

:02:14.:02:18.

than an England home game. For the 18,000 Polish fans, won't be

:02:19.:02:25.

visitors, they will be locals. So were you born here? Yes. So when you

:02:26.:02:30.

grow up, you could play football for Poland or England? Yes.

:02:31.:02:38.

Which would you prefer? England. We are from Poland.

:02:39.:02:42.

They maybe from Poland, but it takes less than a generation for new,

:02:43.:02:47.

hybrid national identities to settle and take root. This generation are

:02:48.:02:51.

as British as they are Polish, but it is not so easy for recent

:02:52.:02:55.

arrivals to claim benefits. You can't get off the bus and walk into

:02:56.:02:58.

the dole office. You have to demonstrate that you are actually

:02:59.:03:02.

resident here, by meeting the conditions of the Government's

:03:03.:03:05.

so-called residency test. The European Commission wants that test

:03:06.:03:10.

scrapped because it says it discriminates against non-British

:03:11.:03:13.

nationals. And it is taking a the British Government to court to try

:03:14.:03:18.

to force the issue. Our own oi I assessments -- our own

:03:19.:03:24.

assessments does stop people claiming benefits that could

:03:25.:03:27.

otherwise be working and not being on benefits and the commission are

:03:28.:03:30.

trying to get us to change that and I am refusing.

:03:31.:03:33.

The European Commission is taking a the UK to court and is taking a

:03:34.:03:38.

legal proceedings. What will the consequences with if

:03:39.:03:43.

that's successful? If the UK were to lose that right to reside, the test

:03:44.:03:48.

case, I think there would be a real concern that the UK's safeguards for

:03:49.:03:53.

its welfare system would be watered down and that has practical

:03:54.:03:58.

implications. While welfare tourism isn't a problem at the moment, it

:03:59.:04:02.

might increase the incentives for minorities to abuse the system. It

:04:03.:04:07.

would be a huge PR disaster from the European Union. Immigration is a

:04:08.:04:09.

sensitive issue. The European Commission says

:04:10.:04:14.

so-called benefit tourism in Britain is exaggerated. But the commission

:04:15.:04:17.

itself has released a report that reveals that the number of EU

:04:18.:04:22.

migrants here who are not economically active is surprisingly

:04:23.:04:28.

high. Nearly one in three. In the UK there are over 600,000 so-called EU

:04:29.:04:34.

non actives, that's 1. 2% of the population. The average across

:04:35.:04:39.

Europe is 1%. The study looked at healthcare spending. On average,

:04:40.:04:44.

European countries spend 0.2% of their health budgets on non active

:04:45.:04:49.

EU migrants. In Britain the figures rises to between 0.7% and 0.1%. The

:04:50.:04:55.

study found immigration flows are linked to economic factors. There

:04:56.:05:02.

was an crease in France, German at UK, but numbers fell in Ireland,

:05:03.:05:05.

Spain and Italy where the economy was hit harder by the crash.

:05:06.:05:11.

Most European migrants here work and pay their taxes. You are still less

:05:12.:05:15.

likely to be unemployed if you are a mids grant than if you were born

:05:16.:05:19.

here. Even so, one British newspaper called the EU Commissioner who is

:05:20.:05:23.

taking a Britain to court the EU mandarin fighting for pay outs to

:05:24.:05:27.

migrants. Today, he told me that was nonsense.

:05:28.:05:34.

It is very important to interpret the figures correctly. We should not

:05:35.:05:40.

call the non actives unemployed because the real figure for

:05:41.:05:45.

unemployed EU migrants in the United Kingdom is around 60,000. So it is a

:05:46.:05:51.

relatively low number. There are many people who are non active. They

:05:52.:05:58.

might be family members of active people who are in employment in the

:05:59.:06:01.

UK and this is legitimate. There is no doubt though about

:06:02.:06:07.

public opinion. All the poles show there is a growing feeling that it

:06:08.:06:10.

the Government is not in control of immigration. That could further

:06:11.:06:14.

damage the case for Britain as a member of the European Union and it

:06:15.:06:18.

might also compromise the public's long-term confidence in a welfare

:06:19.:06:23.

system that is based on universal entitlement. For that he system, of

:06:24.:06:26.

welfare for all at the point of need, was designed to serve the

:06:27.:06:31.

Britain of the 1940s. Can it endure in the more globalised, more mobile,

:06:32.:06:38.

more open and borderless 21st century that this generation

:06:39.:06:39.

inherits? Raab is a Conservative MP who has

:06:40.:06:51.

written about benefit tourism. Jonathan Portes is director of the

:06:52.:06:54.

National Institute for Economic and Social Research and Magda Harvey, a

:06:55.:06:57.

polish entrepreneur, who runs the Polish Specialities delicatessen.

:06:58.:06:59.

The Government never produced any hard evidence that benefit tourism

:07:00.:07:02.

is a problem? There is no hard data and that's part of the problem.

:07:03.:07:06.

Whether it is the 60,000 estimated EU nationals claiming Jobseeker's

:07:07.:07:12.

Allowance or the 600,000 economically inactive, the British

:07:13.:07:14.

taxpayer is spending billions on welfare for a rising number of EU

:07:15.:07:20.

migrants. Now, my view is look... What makes you so sure that incoming

:07:21.:07:29.

migrants are more likely to claim on benefit than existing British

:07:30.:07:33.

nationals? What you do is end up stoking this? We have statistics.

:07:34.:07:38.

Look, I have got no doubt. I am the son of a he Czech father and my wife

:07:39.:07:44.

is Brazilian. The majority of people who come from abroad, contribute. We

:07:45.:07:49.

have a home-grown depend ovensy problem, but that's irrelevant. If

:07:50.:07:53.

you are a British taxpayer and the British public, you want to attract

:07:54.:07:56.

people who come here with something to contribute. But you want to limit

:07:57.:08:01.

those who aren't and we can do both and that's what this debate ought to

:08:02.:08:05.

be about and we shouldn't shy away from it.

:08:06.:08:10.

If somebody comes well qualified from an Eastern European country.

:08:11.:08:17.

There is resentment against somebody who is from the UK and they get it?

:08:18.:08:24.

I don't believe they will go to a strange country and claim benefit

:08:25.:08:29.

straightaway. They can't claim benefit unless they prove residency?

:08:30.:08:34.

I don't people are really migrating to claim benefits. First of all,

:08:35.:08:38.

they are emigrating to look for the jobs and if they don't see the

:08:39.:08:42.

chance, a fair chance of getting the job, they wouldn't go to the

:08:43.:08:44.

country. When you saw the statistics there of

:08:45.:08:49.

health spending, it is more in Britain than in other European

:08:50.:08:54.

countries on migrant workers? Well, I don't know how those statistics

:08:55.:08:58.

are being worked out because whenever I go to hospital and nobody

:08:59.:09:03.

is asking me really what nationality I am, and from my experience most of

:09:04.:09:08.

the, I will talk about the Poles, most Poles when they go to visit the

:09:09.:09:13.

families or go back to Poland, they go for the health check over there.

:09:14.:09:18.

Not here. Unfortunately, we don't believe in the British health

:09:19.:09:20.

system. We have got a situation where there

:09:21.:09:27.

is lots of British retirees in Spain draining the Spanish system as well?

:09:28.:09:31.

Well, the fact of the matter, if you compare, I think people are

:09:32.:09:35.

attracted by jobs here. Unemployment is lower here than in Poland. Wages

:09:36.:09:40.

are higher and also in work benefits are high. If you compare child

:09:41.:09:44.

benefit, it is four times more generous here.

:09:45.:09:50.

We have got 600, according this this report from the EU, we have got

:09:51.:09:55.

600,000 people... Including pensioners, students and children?

:09:56.:09:58.

People who are economically inactive using the NHS. And that's 50%

:09:59.:10:04.

higher... How do you, it is a difficult thing to do, isn't it? To

:10:05.:10:09.

decide how you stop certain people coming. Presumably, they are the

:10:10.:10:13.

engine of the economy? We are not talking about necessarily the same

:10:14.:10:18.

people. Potentially the engine of the economy. But what would you

:10:19.:10:23.

actually do? How would you do it? Well, you want to have a

:10:24.:10:27.

points-based system and we will probably find we have to move

:10:28.:10:30.

towards a sort of contributions based approach to both welfare and

:10:31.:10:34.

NHS... So that means a change in European law? No, that wouldn't. The

:10:35.:10:38.

Germans have something more akin to that. I think at EU law level, if

:10:39.:10:44.

you ask the British people, the number one thing they would like to

:10:45.:10:47.

see renegotiated in Britain's relationship with the EU is the free

:10:48.:10:53.

movement rules so this that we have this conditionality. We want to

:10:54.:10:56.

attract the best and the brightest, but we want them to be self reliant.

:10:57.:11:01.

Is there a sense that European migrants are now feeling that they

:11:02.:11:07.

are not wanted? I think it has always been that that migrants were

:11:08.:11:12.

not wanted. But they were always used and they were useful. That's

:11:13.:11:15.

why they were coming and from my point of view, I think that there

:11:16.:11:22.

are many positive migrants who are coming here to work and they are

:11:23.:11:25.

paying their taxes and I am very much for the benefits only for

:11:26.:11:28.

people who contribute to the economy. I am against people who are

:11:29.:11:33.

going abroad and claiming benefits or even in their own country,

:11:34.:11:37.

claiming benefits and not contributing to the society if they

:11:38.:11:41.

don't pay taxes, they can't claim. Thank you very much indeed.

:11:42.:11:48.

Today the Nobel committee gave their prize in economics to three

:11:49.:11:54.

different economists. One for proving that markers is always

:11:55.:11:59.

rational and efficient and a third who proved it was impossible to

:12:00.:12:06.

tell. I spoke to one of them. He was the one who thought markets weren't

:12:07.:12:15.

always rational. Congratulations. Thank you.

:12:16.:12:20.

What are we meant to think when we think of this prize. Three

:12:21.:12:28.

economists each of whom contradict the other? Well, notably one is

:12:29.:12:36.

famous for testing and rejecting some of his own models. We are in

:12:37.:12:42.

con currency on kosh concurrence on that. It is a difference in

:12:43.:12:46.

philosophy and how you interpret problems. The Chicago School of

:12:47.:12:51.

People think there must be a good explanation for anything that looks

:12:52.:12:58.

anomalous and it is hard to prove that wrong. It becomes an underlying

:12:59.:13:05.

philosophical difference. You take a different view? I am

:13:06.:13:12.

married to a psychologist! That has affected me! Do you think that in

:13:13.:13:18.

economics it is actually ever possible to be absolutely right?

:13:19.:13:26.

Well, Marshall said economics is not an exact science and there is a deep

:13:27.:13:30.

wisdom in what he said, the problem with economics we are describing

:13:31.:13:37.

people and people, they change their mind. There is something about

:13:38.:13:41.

people that is different from any physical phenomenon. They can do it

:13:42.:13:44.

despite you and change their mind and do something different.

:13:45.:13:49.

One thing you did predict was the howing bubble -- housing bubble.

:13:50.:13:54.

What's the your prediction, will it happen again? In London and Los

:13:55.:13:59.

Angeles, we are seeing markets heating up. There is a question of

:14:00.:14:03.

whether it will happen again and I couldn't rule it out. I think people

:14:04.:14:08.

have got more speculative in their thinking and they could make

:14:09.:14:11.

something like that happen. Here, we are seeing as you say,

:14:12.:14:15.

things hotting up and the Government is giving cheap money. I mean very

:14:16.:14:19.

cheap money for house buyers and money up to ?600,000. People are

:14:20.:14:26.

embracing it. It is as if, well let's get going again. Gung that

:14:27.:14:31.

then holds the -- do you think that then holds the danger of a housing

:14:32.:14:35.

bubble in London? When you have easy credit that helps promote a bubble.

:14:36.:14:39.

I just don't think that the public is as gullible this time. It won't

:14:40.:14:44.

be as bad this time. But it does look like, I know the US better. It

:14:45.:14:49.

looks somewhat like a bubblement prices are going up fast and there

:14:50.:14:55.

are some enthusiasts who are excited. It is just not, I think

:14:56.:15:00.

what we saw that led to this crisis was a rarity. A once-in-a-lifetime

:15:01.:15:05.

big event. That's my guess. It won't be as big.

:15:06.:15:10.

Let's do guessing then about the US Government defoughting on Thursday

:15:11.:15:16.

or -- defaulting on Thursday or not. What's your best guess? The last

:15:17.:15:21.

time we came close was in 2011 and Congress agreed in the last minute

:15:22.:15:28.

and then it still resulted however in a default, not a default, a

:15:29.:15:33.

downgrading of our US debt and a lot of turmoil in the markets. Every

:15:34.:15:38.

time, it is different. My guess is they won't default and even if they

:15:39.:15:42.

did, it would be short-term. It would be corrected soon. A short

:15:43.:15:49.

default as it were holds no dangers for America or the world? The

:15:50.:15:52.

American people would be upset to see that happen. It is a matter of

:15:53.:16:00.

honour and if it dz are did -- if it does happen, it will have some

:16:01.:16:03.

damage, but I am thinking that it will probably be corrected soon

:16:04.:16:07.

enough that it is something for the history books. That means people

:16:08.:16:11.

won't remember it as a major default. It might have been a delay

:16:12.:16:15.

over a couple of days or something and it will be forgotten. Thank you

:16:16.:16:21.

very much indeed. My pleasure.

:16:22.:16:28.

50 years after the first Beatles album in 1963 Paul McCartney

:16:29.:16:33.

releases his 16th solo album titled New. It is his first album of new

:16:34.:16:36.

songs in six years. It coincides with the publication of a door

:16:37.:16:43.

stopper of a new biography about The Beatles by mark. Since then the

:16:44.:16:58.

yawning generation gap that was exposed has closed. At least that is

:16:59.:17:06.

what Danny Finkelstein thinks. We asked him to explain.

:17:07.:17:24.

# She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah # I thought it was horrific and

:17:25.:17:28.

nauseating because it was in the true sense barbaric.

:17:29.:17:32.

It was a massive social upheaval. It was the start of an era, the pop

:17:33.:17:40.

era. The 60s was not just a musical revolution, but a cultural and

:17:41.:17:43.

political one too. Come on in. This year, when Margaret

:17:44.:17:49.

Thatcher died it was the last in a long line of Prime Ministers whose

:17:50.:17:52.

politics were shaped by their experience as adults of a Second

:17:53.:17:56.

World War. Now we live in a consumer culture framed by the 60s, whose

:17:57.:18:01.

music and politics were forever changed by what happened after The

:18:02.:18:15.

Beatles released their first LP. Pop music began in Liverpool because

:18:16.:18:18.

it was a port town and the first place to get new records from

:18:19.:18:22.

America. This revolution was about teenage prosperity, new mass

:18:23.:18:26.

communications technology, demographics and a post-war baby

:18:27.:18:30.

boom which tipped social power to the young. There was the end of

:18:31.:18:34.

National Service, there was the start of globalisation. It is very

:18:35.:18:42.

hard to overestimate The Beatles importance. They were working class

:18:43.:18:47.

which was almost unheard of and before The Beatles you had Billy

:18:48.:18:55.

Furey and he wouldn't speak because he was scared people wouldn't

:18:56.:19:00.

understand a word he was saying and The Beatles sounded as Scouse as

:19:01.:19:04.

they could. They worked in so many different areas. They were

:19:05.:19:09.

experimental. Every record they made was an advance of the previous one.

:19:10.:19:15.

Pop culture broke class barriers and lapped at the feet of traditional

:19:16.:19:22.

institutions and was the soundtrack for sexual liberation and what it

:19:23.:19:30.

changed as form, kept on inhib baiting, but didn't go away. Here is

:19:31.:19:35.

the great pop artist, Peter Blake. It is like a love shop. People said

:19:36.:19:45.

why do you stick the things on? Why don't you paint them? When I paint

:19:46.:19:53.

them, they say why do you bother to paint them, why didn't you just

:19:54.:20:07.

stick them on? Some of the student antics of the

:20:08.:20:14.

60s may look absurd now. We believe in the appropriation of private

:20:15.:20:23.

property. It is just, these are the bare essentials.

:20:24.:20:27.

The end of difference was here to stay.

:20:28.:20:40.

In the 60s, even once the power of pop culture had become clear, the

:20:41.:20:44.

idea was that a generation gap had opened, they would keep repeating

:20:45.:20:49.

itself, each generation would find their parents baffling and their

:20:50.:20:52.

musical taste terrible. The pop stars of the 60, people like

:20:53.:20:56.

McCartney would stop making records and touring, a rockstar couldn't be

:20:57.:21:01.

over 30. Decades later, things look different. The generation gap that

:21:02.:21:05.

opened in the 1960s wasn't as it turned out one of many, it was

:21:06.:21:10.

unique. A gap had opened up that separated those whose main political

:21:11.:21:15.

cultural point of reference was the Second World War from us. From those

:21:16.:21:19.

whose main political cultural point of reference was the pop culture of

:21:20.:21:34.

the 1960s and after. Had has been a hard day's night #

:21:35.:21:40.

The music of the 60s have survived. Young people, teenagers, listened to

:21:41.:21:48.

the Beatles and politics has been forever changed. The generational

:21:49.:21:54.

shift in the 60s was greater than anything we have seen since. You

:21:55.:21:58.

could look at punk or Margaret Thatcher coming to power and huge

:21:59.:22:04.

cultural jumps. The 60s, it feels like everything happened at the same

:22:05.:22:07.

time. Pop art. The world of the popular

:22:08.:22:11.

imagination. The world of film stars.

:22:12.:22:20.

Politics is as much generational as ideological. We are all children of

:22:21.:22:27.

the 60s. This idea if you use contraceptives, you are likely to

:22:28.:22:34.

run off and have affairs with everybody. It was just ridiculous.

:22:35.:22:39.

There was a generation gap, but just one and we live on the other side of

:22:40.:22:43.

it. We are all the same in which everybody lives whether we like it

:22:44.:22:49.

or not. To talk about that film is Danny

:22:50.:22:55.

Finkelstein himself. Danny, surely there is a massive difference

:22:56.:22:58.

between the generation and the generation of the 60s. They have no

:22:59.:23:03.

knowledge of the Cold War, the fall of the Berlin Wall, Margaret

:23:04.:23:08.

Thatcher. Now, it is the internet. We didn't have that? No one, is

:23:09.:23:12.

arguing there haven't been any changes. The question is whether or

:23:13.:23:15.

not the frame of reference was set by that extremely powerful change.

:23:16.:23:21.

If you look at the politicians whose life experience was before the 1960s

:23:22.:23:28.

who became adults and distinguish between them and the politician who

:23:29.:23:31.

came afterwards, you can see this big change in social class, it is

:23:32.:23:35.

not just the question of issues, but in attitudes and in social, in the

:23:36.:23:39.

social atmosphere. Do you see that after the 50s, it

:23:40.:23:46.

made a massive difference. The recline of religion? The more I

:23:47.:23:51.

think about it, the more I agree with you. A lot of the changes were

:23:52.:23:58.

short-lived and flaky. The whole Beatlemania and notion it issued --

:23:59.:24:06.

ushered in this sexually permissive era. There were changes, but those

:24:07.:24:09.

were mainly to do with the pill and to do with women working and the

:24:10.:24:18.

rhetoric around free love and communes. That was limited to a

:24:19.:24:25.

particular part of society? It was short-lived. Some of our parents

:24:26.:24:28.

were in that mould. Most of our parents weren't.

:24:29.:24:41.

Was your mum a hippie? My mum was a bit bo-ho, my dad was a lot bo-ho.

:24:42.:24:51.

I don't think the actual rhetoric of the time really amounted to very

:24:52.:24:53.

much. Do you think now that there is going

:24:54.:24:57.

to be, what will be a defining gap will be what happened over the last

:24:58.:25:02.

three or four years and drinking at the well of everything the parents

:25:03.:25:06.

left empty would be the crash and the recession. This generation are

:25:07.:25:16.

suffering because of the excesses and of the previous generation? I

:25:17.:25:20.

think politics is very much generational. So even quite small

:25:21.:25:25.

changes in generation make quite a big difference in politics and you

:25:26.:25:28.

can look at the way generations develop and understand more about

:25:29.:25:32.

politics probably than just by looking at ideas. However, I think

:25:33.:25:36.

when you have got to look at big cohorts and one of the reasons why

:25:37.:25:40.

the 60s made a difference is because of the demotics, the baby boom. One

:25:41.:25:47.

of the points made in the book about The Beatles, National Service ended

:25:48.:25:52.

before The Beatles made their first appearance and so they were the

:25:53.:25:55.

first generation that didn't go into the Army. That made a big difference

:25:56.:25:59.

to their whole way of looking at work.

:26:00.:26:03.

-- at the world. People are less likely to vote

:26:04.:26:09.

tribally. That's a big change. There is more of a break down of those

:26:10.:26:15.

kind of lines? Because of a consumer society rather than a producer one

:26:16.:26:20.

pcht We always talk about the baby boomers and we adescribe the fact

:26:21.:26:24.

there is a massive gap of wealth between one again raugs and the

:26:25.:26:27.

next, but really the baby boomers were as you showed with the clip,

:26:28.:26:33.

incredibly well-versed in very radical political thought and what

:26:34.:26:36.

really divided the generations in terms of their money is a

:26:37.:26:45.

neoliberal, end of ideology. What about the riots though? The riots

:26:46.:26:51.

are the end point of this. What do you do when your identity is rooted

:26:52.:26:54.

in your consumption, but you have got nothing to consume with? Well,

:26:55.:26:59.

maybe that's the thing that binds the generation. The idea that we

:27:00.:27:03.

live, there is a neoliberal society, but it is fine to be consumers...

:27:04.:27:08.

When you look at the fact that all the money is locked into one

:27:09.:27:12.

generation's housing and everybody else from below 30 on wards is

:27:13.:27:16.

struggling because we are not all consumers.

:27:17.:27:22.

It was the beginning of money and... Ah, but he wasn't to know. You can

:27:23.:27:26.

look at the p ideas and the antics were ridiculous, but it is very

:27:27.:27:30.

important that the 1960s left us with tolerance and it left us with

:27:31.:27:36.

gay rights and opened up and broke down class barriers and opened up

:27:37.:27:39.

markets. I think, you know, that's one of my arguments that consumer

:27:40.:27:43.

capitalism and social liberalism went together and they were all

:27:44.:27:47.

produced by this generational shift. If you look at when Please Please

:27:48.:27:55.

came out. 50 years ago. From that 50 year period there were two world

:27:56.:27:59.

wars and massive change. It seems extraordinary in that 50 year period

:28:00.:28:04.

and now Paul McCartney is still making records. If you look at the

:28:05.:28:09.

break down of class barriers. The reason it seemed so radical at the

:28:10.:28:12.

time, the reason there was this fixed, if you sound a certain way

:28:13.:28:17.

you won't be allowed into the public domain. Actual financial inequality

:28:18.:28:21.

wasn't that great, but now it is so great there is no problem with

:28:22.:28:24.

people from whatever class because there are so many other ways to keep

:28:25.:28:33.

them out. Tom Iran talks about its nuclear

:28:34.:28:39.

weapons. With a thaw in relations two America and the new Iranian

:28:40.:28:45.

president. Mark urban is there. The weight of expectation is massive,

:28:46.:28:49.

presumably? It is big. Particularly after the visit to the UN last month

:28:50.:29:05.

by president roe handy. -- Rohani. Despite that, there is a lot of

:29:06.:29:10.

people in the foreign policy establishments of the UK, US, who

:29:11.:29:13.

have been expressing scepticism. Who have been saying look is this just a

:29:14.:29:19.

PR drive or are we going to see something substantially different?

:29:20.:29:23.

Tomorrow morning around 9.30 to 10am, the Foreign Minister of Iran

:29:24.:29:30.

will walk into to the building in Geneva and present this new Iranian

:29:31.:29:35.

plan. At that point we should know, not the deal, but we should know the

:29:36.:29:38.

direction of travel and whether there is a real desire to make

:29:39.:29:42.

compromises on the Iranian side. But do we know anything about this

:29:43.:29:51.

new plan? Any tit-bits? Well, certain things have been talked

:29:52.:29:54.

about. There is a three phase plan. They have also defined certain

:29:55.:29:58.

things negatively. They have said it is a red line and they don't want

:29:59.:30:02.

any of their enriched uranium removed from the country. One thing

:30:03.:30:06.

is clear is that the old type of negotiations in which the west was

:30:07.:30:10.

trying to shut down this programme or remove the enriched uranium or

:30:11.:30:16.

get someone else to do the enrichment is not on the table. What

:30:17.:30:22.

this is about is trying to row back the Iranian programme from where it

:30:23.:30:26.

is now and get it under tight international control. It would seem

:30:27.:30:31.

the Iranians understand this. That officials are expecting a meaningful

:30:32.:30:36.

proposal to be made tomorrow. That's one of the reasons John Kerry was in

:30:37.:30:43.

London today trying to almost anticipate the Iranian position and

:30:44.:30:47.

that some form of deeper negotiati will begin, but we will get the true

:30:48.:30:51.

sense of direction tomorrow and Wednesday.

:30:52.:30:55.

Thank you very much, Mark. Bill Turnbull

:30:56.:30:57.

Bill Browder is not welcome in Russia unless behind bars. He has

:30:58.:31:08.

been sentenced to nine years for tax evasion for which he denies. Mr

:31:09.:31:18.

Browder has listed 60 Russian officials he holds responsible for

:31:19.:31:21.

the death. Today a British judge throughout a case for libel.

:31:22.:31:31.

A mistierious death in a Moscow jail. Four years on it has done much

:31:32.:31:38.

to poison relations between Russia and the west. T.

:31:39.:31:53.

He wasn't a rights campaigner. He was a tax lawyer jailed after he

:31:54.:31:59.

exposed a fraud worth $230 million that he said involved police and

:32:00.:32:06.

other State officials. His employer claimed the lawyer was jailed and

:32:07.:32:11.

then killed to cover-up the scam. He campaigned for a Bill now passed

:32:12.:32:18.

into law banning Russian officials involved in the death from entering

:32:19.:32:23.

the United States. That plainly infuriated President

:32:24.:32:26.

Putin. In response, Russia has imposed

:32:27.:32:31.

similar sanctions on some American officials and this year, it tried a

:32:32.:32:45.

defendant. Browder's online campaign continues with this police officer

:32:46.:32:50.

accused. The same officers arrested and tortured and killed Sergi.

:32:51.:33:05.

This man denied the charges and sued Browder's company for libel. It is

:33:06.:33:09.

one thing to allege the police officer was part of a tax fraud and

:33:10.:33:12.

another to suggest that he was directly involved in the torture and

:33:13.:33:19.

murder of the whistle-blower. The judge ruled today the companies had

:33:20.:33:23.

not come close to proed vieding sufficient evidence. The case turned

:33:24.:33:27.

on another issue. The justification for hearing the claim in an English

:33:28.:33:38.

court. One side argued it wasn't libel tourism. The judge said the

:33:39.:33:44.

claimant's connection with this country is resid uous. There is a

:33:45.:33:53.

degree of artificiality about his seeking to protect his reputation.

:33:54.:33:59.

The British courts will no longer be he -- no be longer used to halt free

:34:00.:34:05.

speech. Officials from any countries around the world cannot come to the

:34:06.:34:13.

UK on a libel tourism. The so-called investigators lock

:34:14.:34:17.

people up here. Many questions remain about the

:34:18.:34:23.

case. The Kremlin's reaction served only to put the Russian State in the

:34:24.:34:28.

dock. That State seems determined to seek revenge on its accusers. Above

:34:29.:34:35.

all, on William Browder. Well, joining me now is Bill

:34:36.:34:41.

Browder. It wasn't a great day in court for you, the judge said that

:34:42.:34:47.

you did not have the evidence? I view it as a fantastic day in court

:34:48.:34:54.

today. The judge kicked out a case of libel tourism. This guy shouldn't

:34:55.:34:59.

have been suing us in the first place here.

:35:00.:35:01.

He did make it clear that he didn't think you had the evidence you

:35:02.:35:06.

needed? It comes down to a very simple paragraph in the judgement.

:35:07.:35:14.

The judge said we couldn't prove he was the guy who beat Sergi and we

:35:15.:35:21.

never said he was the guy who beat Sergi. The judge did say in his

:35:22.:35:27.

ruling if this had gone to court, he would have aloud us to -- allowed us

:35:28.:35:32.

to resubmit our claim to say he was a member of a criminal group.

:35:33.:35:38.

Well, you have questions over how he can afford this libel, a retired

:35:39.:35:43.

police officer? Well, so let's take a step back. Here you have a police

:35:44.:35:51.

officer. He earned ?6,000 a -- $6,000 a year as a police officer.

:35:52.:35:57.

He hired the most expensive QC and solicitor in the country costing

:35:58.:36:02.

millions, millions to sue people and I was one of his victims as well as

:36:03.:36:08.

many others to sue his victims in a foreign country. How is that? It

:36:09.:36:12.

kind of shows in one way if you are right, the Russians will not let

:36:13.:36:17.

this lie and indeed, they won't let it lie because they want you

:36:18.:36:23.

extradited and serve nine years on a conviction of tax evasion. You can't

:36:24.:36:27.

travel to Sweden for example, can you? You are too worried you would

:36:28.:36:33.

be extradited? We got the Act passed in America which passes asset

:36:34.:36:39.

freezes who are involved in this case and many other cases. The

:36:40.:36:44.

Russian Government got furious and they have convicted Sergi and I was

:36:45.:36:52.

his codefendant and they convicted me for nine years. You have had

:36:53.:36:58.

death threats, haven't you? I have had death threats and libel suits

:36:59.:37:01.

and extradition, everything you can think of. The Russians are so, Putin

:37:02.:37:10.

is so agitated because we found the Achilles heel of this regime which

:37:11.:37:16.

is they steal money and they stole $230 million. A young lawyer exposed

:37:17.:37:21.

it and then he was killed in prison for exposing it. They steal money

:37:22.:37:26.

and so we found their Achilles heel which is let's make sure the money

:37:27.:37:30.

is frozen in the west and that's what makes Putin terrified.

:37:31.:37:35.

Is there a sense in which you are pursuing this because you feel so

:37:36.:37:39.

responsibility for your colleague's death? Of, course. If he hadn't been

:37:40.:37:44.

my lawyer, he would be alive and that weight sits on my shoulders

:37:45.:37:48.

every day and that's what drives me every day to get justice for this

:37:49.:37:51.

man. And what extent will you go to get

:37:52.:37:56.

justice? I will go to the end. Would you ever do something that

:37:57.:38:00.

would put yourself in danger? The only way I will get justice if I

:38:01.:38:04.

stay alive and stay out of prison. So I will stay alive and stay out of

:38:05.:38:09.

prison. I will keep on fighting this to make sure the people who killed

:38:10.:38:19.

Sergi face justice. What makes art? When is it good? And

:38:20.:38:25.

how do we know when it's good? These are some of the questions being

:38:26.:38:28.

posed by the, by turns, flamboyant, playful and provocative artist,

:38:29.:38:31.

Grayson Perry, who is delivering this year's Reith lectures. The

:38:32.:38:34.

Turner Prize winning potter sets out to demystify the often exclusive and

:38:35.:38:37.

impenetrable art world and isn't afraid to have a pop at contemporary

:38:38.:38:41.

art. For example, calling Tate Modern a cult entertainment

:38:42.:38:44.

megastore. He believes that art is a visual medium, usually made by the

:38:45.:38:48.

artist's hand, that is a pleasure to make, to look at and to show others.

:38:49.:38:52.

He has recorded the lectures in different venues and I hazard a

:38:53.:38:55.

guess is perhaps the only Reithian to have received a raucous standing

:38:56.:38:59.

ovation. There is one message I want the lectures to carry. It is that

:39:00.:39:05.

anybody can enjoy art. Anybody can have a life in the arts. Even me! An

:39:06.:39:21.

Essex trance estite potter. I have never been afraid of being a

:39:22.:39:25.

part of the establishment. To be outside of it, my third lecture is

:39:26.:39:33.

called Nice Rebellion Welcome In. It absorbs it. It punches itself in the

:39:34.:39:39.

face, the art world. You seem to be saying to people,

:39:40.:39:43.

come in, don't be afraid of art. You say it is not easy, you can't know

:39:44.:39:47.

what art is? Yeah, I don't know much about football. You wouldn't ask me

:39:48.:39:51.

to choose the England football team. When someone goes into an art

:39:52.:39:55.

gallery and they know nothing about art, their opinion is, you know, not

:39:56.:39:58.

the same as someone who has been looking at all -- at art their life.

:39:59.:40:08.

How do people educate themselves? By looking and learning and reading and

:40:09.:40:10.

listening. If you were naturally, you don't

:40:11.:40:14.

know much about art and you go in and you are in a gallery and you are

:40:15.:40:22.

faced a Monet and the Tate bricks, are you drawn as setically? The one

:40:23.:40:27.

thing I want to say to people, you don't have to like it all. But it

:40:28.:40:31.

might be that when you learn more about the bricks and the history of

:40:32.:40:35.

art and where it stands and the context and the narrative of it and

:40:36.:40:38.

then you will start to understand what the bricks mean. The urinal is

:40:39.:40:53.

a different kind of art. You don't have to like it all, you know. I

:40:54.:41:00.

mean, I like much of the 20th century modernism and I like some of

:41:01.:41:05.

what is made todayks but at any one point in our history, most of what

:41:06.:41:11.

is being made is rubbish and it was ever thus. If you go back 100 or 200

:41:12.:41:18.

years, most of the art was poor quality and all the stuff from the

:41:19.:41:22.

past, the bad stuff has been filtered out. The trouble is we can

:41:23.:41:26.

now see the other stuff that's being made now. We can go this week to

:41:27.:41:37.

Freeze Art Fair. Do you think we are coming to the

:41:38.:41:43.

end of art? The end of change in art. You seem to be suggesting that

:41:44.:41:50.

at one of your lectures? You had modernism starting in the late 19th

:41:51.:41:56.

century and started to fizzle out around the 60s and 70s. Now we are

:41:57.:42:00.

in a state where some people call it the end of art. Where you can do

:42:01.:42:05.

anything and formally, in terms of what you can make as art, what you

:42:06.:42:09.

declare as art, you can do anything. But there are still boundaries. I

:42:10.:42:14.

talk about that in one of the lecturesment I say the boundaries

:42:15.:42:19.

are social, economical. It is about the context. Who is looking at it.

:42:20.:42:22.

Where it is. And who is buying it. You are

:42:23.:42:26.

detailed. You make really interesting arguments about the

:42:27.:42:32.

xhodification of art and how it is suddenly regarded as valuable and

:42:33.:42:36.

six months later, not valuable anymore. I am fascinated by negative

:42:37.:42:40.

equity in the art world and it is not talked about a lot. There is a

:42:41.:42:45.

point where an artist is almost too big to fail and he is supported or

:42:46.:42:48.

she is supported by the galleries and by collectors. It is like

:42:49.:42:52.

everybody in the room is blowing up to keep the balloon up in the air.

:42:53.:43:00.

There is what they call costs bias. There is artists lower down the

:43:01.:43:05.

pecking order that might be pricey who disappear out of view and the

:43:06.:43:10.

people who bought their work write off the money.

:43:11.:43:18.

Do you think that edifice of art is what puts people off? It seems so

:43:19.:43:23.

far away from their daily lives that art doesn't have the same meaning to

:43:24.:43:27.

them? The thing is unlike music or literature or film there is not such

:43:28.:43:32.

a dominating popular wing. On the whole it tends to be mainly about

:43:33.:43:37.

the high end and the difficult. That's the sort of quirk. That's

:43:38.:43:41.

what we have ended up. There is popular art, of course, there is. It

:43:42.:43:45.

doesn't have, you know, the kind of curve of art is very top endy as

:43:46.:43:50.

opposed to music where it is very bottom endy.

:43:51.:43:53.

Do you want more people to enjoy art? Do you think there is a problem

:43:54.:43:56.

in this country that not enough people enjoy art or feel comfortable

:43:57.:44:03.

with it? 5.3 million people go through the doors to Tate Modern

:44:04.:44:06.

every year. You think it is some big

:44:07.:44:10.

entertainment box? It might be because it is on the tourist trail.

:44:11.:44:16.

But I think, I would really enjoy the art world. I really enjoy art

:44:17.:44:21.

and I want to pass that on. It is something you can work at and

:44:22.:44:25.

compared to when I started in the art world people are much more

:44:26.:44:31.

knowledgeable. There is more in the media. Me being on Newsnight is

:44:32.:44:35.

something you wouldn't have had an artist on Newsnight in the past.

:44:36.:44:40.

Artists can be social commentators and you are thought of as a social

:44:41.:44:45.

commentator or as well? Because I enjoy the media and it is something

:44:46.:44:50.

I have chosen to do. It is an option open to people in the creative

:44:51.:44:57.

industry. The idea of creating by your own hand. It has been an

:44:58.:45:02.

argument that artists have assistants. Is it the business of it

:45:03.:45:07.

which is not having an artist to put the clouds into the Sistene Chapel.

:45:08.:45:13.

The thing is the work by the assistant is part of the

:45:14.:45:18.

commercialisation of the art? A lot of artists, they have a lot of

:45:19.:45:22.

assistants because there is demand for their work and they couldn't

:45:23.:45:26.

pull fill the market, the desire for their work so you know, museums

:45:27.:45:30.

around the world all want a piece of a certain artist's work so they get

:45:31.:45:35.

loads of assistants and they make a lot of works and hay press toe. They

:45:36.:45:41.

make a lot of money. Does that devalue the art? It

:45:42.:45:47.

depends on the artist. Some arthist -- artist, they are saying this is

:45:48.:45:55.

part of my work. I churn it out. You are a work of art? No, I declare

:45:56.:46:09.

myself not a work of art! Grayson Perry's first Reith lecture

:46:10.:46:12.

can be heard at 9am on Radio 4. While it's on air, you can join in

:46:13.:46:16.

the debate via Will Gompertz's live blog and, of course, on Twitter. The

:46:17.:46:19.

hashtag, not surprisingly, is Reith. Tom's front page is the care home

:46:20.:46:27.

stories. Cutting green taxes may raise energy bills warns Clegg.

:46:28.:46:33.

Syria linked to terrorist arrest in London raids. The Financial Times,

:46:34.:46:40.

London opens door to Chinese bank. Tory peer hits out at GCHQ's online

:46:41.:46:47.

spying. That's the Queen.

:46:48.:46:50.

Well, that's it for tonight. Jeremy is here tomorrow. We leave you with

:46:51.:46:55.

a little of the movie Gravity which has come from nowhere to take $100

:46:56.:47:02.

million since its release ten days ago in the United States.

:47:03.:47:17.

Unusually for a Hollywood science fiction film, it is depiction of a

:47:18.:47:21.

disaster in earth's orbit has even been praised for its occasional

:47:22.:47:27.

adherence to the laws of physics. Good night.

:47:28.:47:44.

Listen to my voice. You need to focus. Detach. I can't see you

:47:45.:47:49.

anymore. Do it now. Good evening.

:47:50.:48:13.

Well, as far as Tuesday goes,

:48:14.:48:14.

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