04/11/2013 Newsnight


04/11/2013

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Britain's most controversial business, Wonga, the payday loan

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company, they have become a byword for easy money at crippling interest

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rates. They don't like it. The idea we charge thousands of per cent

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interest is a myth. Their Chief Operating Officer is here to explain

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why all the negative press is wrong. And this. The radical feminist

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group, Femen coming to a protest near you. First the clubcard, now

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Tesco has a face-scanner, it will check your sex and age range to give

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you tailor-made adverts. Innocuous check your sex and age range to give

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profits out of people's financial pain is the accusation. But now one

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of the most prominent, Wonga, are on a charm offensive. Tomorrow they

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launch a Wonga-made movie featuring ten happy customers for whom fast

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money, they say, has been the answer to their prayers. I will speak to

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senior Wonga executive after this. I love cutting children's hair, they

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enjoy having their haircut in nursery... They are the voices of

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Wonga, according to none other than Wonga. Tomorrow the company will

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release a film imaginatively titled, Wonga the Movie, they feature people

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who have taken out loans and repaid them. We have been together three

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years, last year I asked her to marry me. My

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years, last year I asked her to out of money on a Friday night all

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you need is a smartphone and it can be in your account in five minutes.

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That allows some to dig themselves deeper into debt. You see them

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advertising, so easy to get. You go on-line and state how much you want.

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You don't notice how much interest you are paying back. I think the

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interest rate should definitely be capped. It is an awful lot of money

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they ask you for. Wonga's transparency makes it easy prey to

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seizing on to the high interest rates. It is as much as 1,000%.

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Wonga say customers don't pay that, they will by 1% day or 365% a year.

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All too tempting say critics for under-18s. They all claim to lend to

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them and Wonga say they are not like the other payday lenders, they need

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to come clean the other payday lenders, they need

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out of control. A million customers want this instant credit because

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they can't get it from bank. Wonga says eight out of ten applicants for

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a first loan are turned down. It is a question of whether the movie will

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be enough to outshout the crickets. Joining me now is the Chief

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Operating Officer of Wonga. First of all, did you realise your

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image was so bad you had to make your own movie? Today we are

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announcing a movie called 12 Portraits, and the director is

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trying to dispel some of the that our image, that you refer to, has

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out there in the UK. I think if you look at the movie, what you will see

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is a representation of our customer base, 12 portraits, in fact,

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representing a million active customers, you can make up your own

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representing a million active was paid their money back on term

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quickly. That is not the case for your customers? Gary first of all

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had complete editorial independence over what he made. Chose the

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customers himself. We gave him a database, selected them. We have a

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million active customers. Can I just take you back on that, free hand, he

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who pays the piper plays the tune, that is first of all, if Gary Tarn

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had produced a film that showed somebody defaulting on their Wonga

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loan having perhaps to pay 375% credit, getting another loan to pay

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off a Wonga loan, destitute on the Pavement, would you be happy for

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that to be on the film? There are 12 portraits and one has defaulted. If

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you look at interest on fees on our site on Wonga, included with one of

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those is site on Wonga, included with one of

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the voice of the silent majority, the people who use the service is

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not being heard. The trouble is if you present too rosy a picture it

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Encourages people to take out that loan. This is Liz Matthew this is

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what happened to her. I got into a vicious cycle where I had four loans

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and couldn't pay any of them back. How much was the original loan? The

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original was ?300 and I owe now ?2,000. I was very frightened and

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worried thinking how can I pay it back. You can't sleep at night. Now,

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Liz Matthews she had a first Wonga loan and a second one. What were the

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affordability checks. You say you do them but she got herself into

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terrible trouble? I can't comment them but she got herself into

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second was ?400 and then she got into trouble. The thing is with Liz

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Matthews you don't require any documents as proof of what they say

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is true?. We look at 8,000 thesis -- pieces of data. We look at how they

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navigate up to the website, if they slide up to the right they may not

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pay us back. Is it an on-line service? It is. That check can be

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made quickly. In five minutes? We mustn't confuse speed with accuracy.

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I was going to say the thing about Liz Matthews, I spoke to her today

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and she admitted to me that she had put down that she was employed on

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both occasions. And she wasn't employed. OK. So therefore she

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received money You have no way of checking that? We

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have a lot of ways of checking that Kirsty. Not with her? Liz may be a

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case that I don't right now have the details in front of me. What we're

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here to talk about is that there are a million customers of whom the

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vast, vast majority are happy, and their voice has not been heard. And

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they are being misrepresented as people who are like Liz as all poor

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and vulnerable and getting themselves into a spiral of debt.

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That is simply not true. It is the case that about seven. 5% either

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have rollovers that cost a lot of money -- 75% either have rollovers

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that cost them a lot of money. Those people are often desperate and will

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say things to get money when they can ill-afford to pay it back? I

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would not agree they are desperate. The reason I'm actually here and

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sitting here and made that film is because I

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sitting here and made that film is and hops of thousands of others, the

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second thing I'm surprised about is the reaction of the media and other

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commentators calling out the exceptions like Liz and assuming

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everyone is like that. When we talk about seven. 5% rollovers and

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defaults that is substantial. Are you confident that customers know

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exactly the consequences of taking out a Wonga loan? I'm very confident

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that we show everything as clearly and transparently as we possibly

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can. The price is marked very clearly on the sliders, the terms

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under which people borrow from us are marked very, very clearly. The

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fact that 90% of customers would recommend us to a friend is evidence

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they agree with us. Talking about the implication, I want you to

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explain this, this the implication, I want you to

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months, lenders will immediately automatically reject the

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application, or ask lots of questions about why that person can

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afford a mortgage now when they were clearly living from hand-to-mouth

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recently. In order to address that problem, because people don't

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appreciate the issues, I think it would be very sensible if payday

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loan lenders were required by the regulator to state on all their

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literature that taking out a payday loan may prejudice your ability to

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get a mortgage. That is a senior mortgage broker. And even if your

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customers are happy and pay back, the very issue of taking out a Wonga

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loan may impact on your ability to get a good mortgage? I can't comment

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on other financial institutions' policies, the regulator will decide

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if that is a right response. He's a senior mortgage broker, he will say

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in terms of credit rating if you wake a Wonga loan you

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in terms of credit rating if you with this, it is about transparency,

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you claim that Wonga is transparent. It is a fact that if you take out a

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loan from a payday loan company, when you go to put your mortgage

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application in, and goodness me Help To Buy is tough enough, that it may

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impact on your ability to get a good mortgage. It would be very simple to

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put that rider on your website, why don't you do it? Because, as I have

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explained, I don't know that is the policy of every single financial

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institution, as your colleague there says, or as your interviewee says,

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if the regulator thinks that is an appropriate thing to do they will do

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that. We are going through with the FT reviewing our business and the

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FCA the same. I'm sure they will tighten up practices across the

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whole of the industry and deal with those things as necessary. This is

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interesting, the regulator is looking at you, we say you

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interesting, the regulator is there, that we could do or others

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could do depending on their opinion. What we see is there is a huge

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Misper exception over the myths about Wonga out there. We are trying

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to show that actually that silent majority of people who haven't been

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heard and commentators who haven't taken and borrowed money for a week

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or ten days, are making commentary about our customers, we think that

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is very unfair. That is not commentary about your customer, what

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this mortgage broker is saying the evidence of having payday loan could

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impact on the chances of getting a decent mortgage. If you go and check

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that tomorrow, and that proves to be true, put it on your website now?

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Kirsty, as I said, two or three times now, I don't know what the

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financial institutions' policies are. Will you find out

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financial institutions' policies about mis s about -- miss

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Perceptions about customer, it may affect something in their future

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life and they are poor and vulnerable, the evidence I see is it

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is not the case in the majority of cases. We have looked at our

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customer base and invited a vulnerable person to exam that. I'm

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not suggesting that vulnerable people should be told that it might

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be difficult to get a good mortgage, I'm saying that anybody who takes

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out a payday loan, who rents a wonderful house and may have to buy

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may be impacted by a payday loan. Not people who are destitute, people

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looking for a mortgage. If it is the case if you check what that

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gentleman says tomorrow morning and find it to be true, in the pursuit

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of transpornly will you put it on find it to be true, in the pursuit

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for 17 days, it is not exactly a very long period of time. If they

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don't pay that back, of course that may impact their underlying credit

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rating. And what we think is... Even if they pay it back it will impact,

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that is what I'm saying. This was a senior Kensington mortgage brokers,

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a senior figure in the industry saying it is not whether you pay it

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back on time it is the fact they had payday loan? I ups that, there are

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many other commentaries on our business, such the price you

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referred to in the introduction, which are myths. We want people to

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understand that we are sharing all of our statistics and have a look at

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the film, our product is fair and transparent, and those customers are

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intelligent people, who in my opinion represent the average person

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in the UK. opinion represent the average person

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is the maxim that Andy Coulson is conducting his defence case. While

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his co-defendants chose to remain silent as the prosecution finished

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outlining his case. Coulson instructed counsel to deliver an

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opening statement, insisting he was never part of an agreement to hack

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phones, no matter what others were doing on his watch at the News of

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the World. This report contains flash photography.

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If the paper he had once edited was still around to report Coulson's

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trial, it might have come up with a headline like this. This wasn't Andy

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Coulson in the centre but his council, Timothy Langdale, who broke

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with normal procedure and made a speech to the jury, before the

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prosecution had even presented its case. Mr Langer Langdale said he was

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Far from being complicit in phone because he wanted to

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Far from being complicit in phone hacking, Mr Langdale told the jury

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that Andy Coulson had had his phone hacked by the private investigator,

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Glenn Mulcaire. As for the evidence so far suggested

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by the prosecution that Andy Coulson must have known what his reporters

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were allegedly up to. It was said that as editor he faced a blizzard

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of e-mails and couldn't possibly know the source for every story

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appearing in the news of the world. In any sense,

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appearing in the news of the world. evidence, Andy Coulson said that

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anyone at the News of the World had deleted the message. Something the

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prosecution has already agreed. There was talk about Prax Blackhawk,

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the alleged conspiracy between Rebekah Brooks and Charley Brook and

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Mark Hanna, to conspire to hide information from the police.

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Andy Coulson told the police that Rebekah Brooks would be next and if

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she was arrested they would have powers to search her houses. On the

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day that Rebekah Brooks was arrested the police were told staff who were

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working for her removed a back from her Oxfordshire home and taken to a

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London home. As the bag was dropped, a member of her security staff

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texted a colleague It was alleged today that Mrs Brooks

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instructed her PA, Cheryl Carter, to remove seven boxes of Mrs Brooks's

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notebooks from the News International archive. The notebooks

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have never been seen again. All the defendants deny the charges, the

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prosecution continues with its case tomorrow. The feminist protest

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group, Femen, founded in Ukraine and head quartered in France where it

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has its largest membership has announced it is setting up in

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Britain. The movement's trade mark is the topless ambush, protests

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against dictatorships and religion, they have a record of high-profile

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actions, including they have a record of high-profile

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it becomes a strength. Our body becomes our weapon. It is a naked

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warrior. They call themselves sex-tremists, they rage against

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patriarchy, religion, homophobia and authoritarianism. They are offensive

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wherever they go. Femen have upset Christians, Muslims and models. But

:21:20.:21:29.

not Vladimir Putin! They say it is war. It looks like theatre. So where

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better for Femen to base themselves than France. The home of street

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protest, revolution and a topless lady liberty. I have come to Femen's

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European headquarters here in Paris, it is also where they have their

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boot camp. Where they train up their it is also where they have their

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morally. Definitely you can't do such actions like we do, attacking

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Putin or climbing up on the top of a building in Davos on the economic

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forum where all the leaders of the Government are inside, you have to

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be well prepared. Inna Shevchenko is Femen's leader. She fled Kiev after

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taking a chainsaw to a crucifix, she said it was in support of Pussy

:22:37.:22:43.

Riot's protest against the Russian Orthodox Church. It won her many

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enemies, it had been a cross in memory of some of Stalin's victims.

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In France she has been given asylum from arrest. Femen say they are

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redefining nudity, breasts will not hear our slogans.

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In this exercise they are role playing a confrontation with the

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police, Femen are now fighting in nine countries. Gisela Perez is from

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Mexico. When I say naked war, when I tell my Government that they are

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dictator, when I tell them that I do not agree with them I stop becoming,

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I have a political will, that we go to prison for that.

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So where does Femen fit into the story of feminism. They are hardly

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the first feminists to be vilified. Mary Wolstencrft was called a high

:24:06.:24:11.

Ena, Mary Wolstencrft was called a high

:24:12.:24:30.

everything that has gone before. We are continuing something other women

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started before. What doesn't help is the revelation that Femen was set up

:24:37.:24:42.

by a man. The accusation is there are man's fantasy of what feminism

:24:43.:24:47.

should look like. When Femen bare their breasts are they really

:24:48.:24:51.

challenging the system or conforming to it? They say they are against the

:24:52.:24:56.

sexualisation and objectcation of women, but when they take their tops

:24:57.:25:00.

off, a lot of people look at them and think they look like sex objects

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and they have become the stereotype. Do you want to look sexy? Exactly,

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we are using what they made us and we're turning it against them. If

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you want I could say that Femen activists are like forcing Barbie to

:25:20.:25:21.

fight. Our Barbie "lock you lock you what"? Femen have

:25:22.:25:41.

tried to alie themselves with the women of the Arab Spring, but many

:25:42.:25:47.

think they are Islam phobic. Do you worry that you cause distress and

:25:48.:25:51.

people are alarmed at what you do? This is also the aim of activism. It

:25:52.:25:57.

is to make people react and realise things. To create a sparkle in

:25:58.:26:02.

people's minds. We are not against Islam specifically, we are against

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all religions, all the institutions. But can these arguments ever get

:26:10.:26:15.

through? When their tactics are so uncompromising, is anyone listening

:26:16.:26:20.

above the shouting? When I'm waking up a spend two to read some news,

:26:21.:26:28.

and I read and I check what happened during the last 24 hours, maybe 60%

:26:29.:26:31.

of all that during the last 24 hours, maybe 60%

:26:32.:26:52.

I think that's enough to ask why we do what we do. Femen are now

:26:53.:26:58.

recruiting in the UK, they haven't ruled out breaking into Buckingham

:26:59.:27:00.

Palace, and yes, taking their tops off in front of the Queen.

:27:01.:27:08.

The founder of a new tracking device has described it like the sci-fi

:27:09.:27:14.

movie Minority Report in which Tom Cruise's eyes are screened and

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advertising is tailored to his profile. That film was out in 2002

:27:18.:27:23.

and the future is here. At least on 450 Tesco petrol forecourts, soon as

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you wait at the till your face will be scanned for genteder and age, and

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hey presto different ads will appear depending on your data. What if you

:27:36.:27:40.

think it is one more invasion of your privacy and you have to stick

:27:41.:27:59.

think it is one more invasion of scanners which recognise his

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features. Now that technology is all but here. As our frame-by-frame

:28:05.:28:07.

homage makes clear. Now we're all about consumer

:28:08.:28:23.

technology on this programme, goodness knows, and yet, there are

:28:24.:28:27.

grounds for scepticism, the idea that this scanner could look into my

:28:28.:28:32.

eyes and say anything conclusive at all, based on my weekly shop of Pot

:28:33.:28:40.

Noodles and alco-pop, it is a bit far fetched. But is it though. These

:28:41.:28:49.

shoppers are profiled, divided by gender and into age groups. One

:28:50.:28:51.

major gender and into age groups. One

:28:52.:29:11.

information you put out there. Advertisers will want to use that.

:29:12.:29:14.

It is out there for them to play with. In France they are already

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exploiting the information we put out there. Monitors read your store

:29:21.:29:26.

loyalty cards, this triggers localised advertising, personalised

:29:27.:29:31.

messages, instantly sent to hoardings as you pass them. It is

:29:32.:29:36.

only a trial so far. Does that sound irritating to you, even the people

:29:37.:29:45.

behind it think so. Maybe you buy milk and we can identify if you need

:29:46.:29:48.

milk. It is really annoying, but it is the

:29:49.:29:51.

future, and you can't miss this. It is really annoying, but it is the

:29:52.:30:20.

consumers want and will put up with. More people said they would stop

:30:21.:30:24.

transacting or doing business with a company if they thought it was

:30:25.:30:27.

harvesting their data without their permission and selling it on to

:30:28.:30:30.

other third parties. They put that ahead of things like environmental

:30:31.:30:35.

damage or huge fat cat salaries. So it cull is something that makes

:30:36.:30:39.

people very anxious. Again I think it is because this sort of sense of

:30:40.:30:45.

things being done behind my back, with my information that really

:30:46.:30:57.

upsets people. Any other objections? Form an orderly queue. It is when we

:30:58.:31:02.

think personal relationships turn into state power relationships. We

:31:03.:31:07.

have a really serious problem. It has already happened in a number of

:31:08.:31:10.

countries with mobile data. The Government in this

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retailers and others rely on us not noticing or shrugging and looking

:31:30.:31:32.

the other way. In the supermarket of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

:31:33.:31:42.

I'm joined now by the man behind Tesco Crabcard, he runs -- Tesco

:31:43.:31:51.

Clubcard, he runs a company that brings better information to

:31:52.:31:56.

advertisers. We will come on to social media in a little while.

:31:57.:32:00.

Let's deal with the forecourt issue. It is simply on the question of one

:32:01.:32:04.

of three age brackets and gender, what is the problem? It teaters on

:32:05.:32:10.

the brink of unethical. The issue is do you want this to happen to you?

:32:11.:32:15.

And have you given your permission for that to happen to you? Your

:32:16.:32:20.

personal image is personal information, it is being

:32:21.:32:39.

personal image is personal think it would be possible, if I'm

:32:40.:32:43.

approaching the till in Tescos and I don't want that to happen I have the

:32:44.:32:47.

right to say please switch that off? Yes, ideally you would have the

:32:48.:32:50.

right to say that in advance. Before you even get there? How will it

:32:51.:32:58.

actually work? We had in-store television five years ago.

:32:59.:33:01.

Interestingly customers didn't like it and we turned it off. You don't

:33:02.:33:10.

work for Tesco's now? No. I think Anna is right it is about consent.

:33:11.:33:14.

You don't approve of this? I'm not saying that, I don't think it has

:33:15.:33:17.

been thought through fully in terms of actually thinking what customers

:33:18.:33:21.

want rather than what you can do. Technology enables so many things to

:33:22.:33:25.

be done, just because you can do it, should you do it? The idea of

:33:26.:33:29.

targeting advertising at the petrol pump based on the make of car you

:33:30.:33:31.

turn up in, for pump based on the make of car you

:33:32.:33:51.

is not. Absolutely not. You can from the face you give your credit card

:33:52.:33:54.

to that till, you have a number plate in the car, you can profile

:33:55.:34:00.

that person exactly. Three pieces of information can tell a lot about

:34:01.:34:03.

that person. And it is not acceptable and it is completely out

:34:04.:34:08.

of proportion. Let's look at on-line now then and using social media

:34:09.:34:15.

better to tailor your interest in certain goods. This is very much

:34:16.:34:19.

Clive's territory. Do you approve of that? Well personally I don't

:34:20.:34:23.

approve of that. I think if people say yes, you can do that to me,

:34:24.:34:29.

that's fine. The problem is that profiling is a default option.

:34:30.:34:36.

People are profiled unless they opt out. They usually don't. It is

:34:37.:34:41.

normal behaviour. You use Twitter data, would people

:34:42.:34:42.

normal behaviour. You use Twitter is your choice. You bare your soul,

:34:43.:35:01.

you have to be prepared to give up everything? You don't have to give

:35:02.:35:04.

up everything at all. You can choose if you wish to not opt in, you can

:35:05.:35:08.

choose if you want to, it is a consent-based model. I think it is

:35:09.:35:12.

about the consumer having control. It always has been. They are the

:35:13.:35:16.

successful businesses. The problem is we don't have control, there is a

:35:17.:35:21.

lot of evidence that we do not have it. People are getting profiled

:35:22.:35:26.

without knowing what's happening to them. They are at the moment, of

:35:27.:35:32.

course? How do you, you presumably do have a mobile phone. I do. Your

:35:33.:35:39.

phone company knows where you are at any moment in time, will that be the

:35:40.:35:43.

find of information to second guess what you are going to do and what

:35:44.:35:50.

you might buy next? Geolocation data is very sensitive data. The

:35:51.:35:51.

companies that have not selling your perm data, they are

:35:52.:36:12.

selling aggregate statistics to help the retailers understand the foot

:36:13.:36:18.

fall. In ten years time you will identify somebody, the Iris and the

:36:19.:36:21.

passport, identifying someone on the street with a camera? You could do

:36:22.:36:27.

that today, and the question is are you responsible. That is the asset

:36:28.:36:32.

test. I think the legislation we have is far behind what technology

:36:33.:36:36.

can do. Thank you very much indeed. The leading British scientist, was

:36:37.:36:42.

ejected from his job as chairman of the Government's advisory council on

:36:43.:36:47.

the Ms. Use of drugs four years ago has been warned an international

:36:48.:36:51.

prize for standing up for science. It is given by nature -- Nature

:36:52.:37:01.

Magazine, for standing up in the face of hostility and

:37:02.:37:19.

Magazine, for standing up in the gained the prize, this is our

:37:20.:37:23.

science editor first. When science meets politics it can be a classic

:37:24.:37:28.

clash of culture, how the Government deals with legal highs has been one

:37:29.:37:32.

such flash point since the summer. When the Government announced a ban

:37:33.:37:39.

on the herbal stimulate Cat, against scientific advice.

:37:40.:37:42.

In the past politicians have traditionally turned to science most

:37:43.:37:47.

especially in times of war. Though it was Winston Churchill who

:37:48.:37:53.

famously said scientific advisers should be on tap not on top. Many

:37:54.:37:57.

scientists believe that going along with that view would be too meek and

:37:58.:38:02.

science advice is more than setting out the spectrum of views, but

:38:03.:38:05.

making sure that policy is based on the best balance of evidence. Not

:38:06.:38:11.

just in war but across a whole range of pressing and

:38:12.:38:30.

to climate change. Professor David Nutt was made chairman of the

:38:31.:38:34.

advisory council on the misuse of drugs, he had a number of run-ins

:38:35.:38:42.

with politicians, and in 2009 he compared using ecstacy with horse

:38:43.:38:47.

riding, he was then sacked by the Home Secretary Alan Johnson, after

:38:48.:38:49.

saying Government classification of cannabis was at odds with scientific

:38:50.:38:57.

measures of actual harm. Professor Colin Blakemore was one of the

:38:58.:39:01.

judges for today's award and has worked with Professor Nutt in the

:39:02.:39:06.

past. He said the whole fair had lasting impact, a set of principles

:39:07.:39:10.

on the way scientific advice should be troted. Science underpins

:39:11.:39:14.

everything we do, increasingly so. Everything from what you mobile

:39:15.:39:17.

phone you choose to whether we are going to tackle global warming.

:39:18.:39:21.

Increasingly the going to tackle global warming.

:39:22.:39:41.

important is that the clarity of high-quality scientific advice is

:39:42.:39:45.

available to everybody. This woman advising Alan Johnson at

:39:46.:39:53.

the Home Office at the time of the David Nutt row. He thinks Churchill

:39:54.:39:59.

got it right? Scientists have a high regard for themselves and those on

:40:00.:40:02.

Government committees have higher regard for themselves. Our

:40:03.:40:05.

experience under the last Labour Government was give the advice by

:40:06.:40:08.

all means, but don't think because you have given the advice that

:40:09.:40:12.

Government has to accept it. And if Government doesn't accept it for

:40:13.:40:15.

whatever reason, that doesn't mean it is a challenge to your authority.

:40:16.:40:19.

It doesn't mean you are undermined, all it means is thanks for what you

:40:20.:40:23.

have advised but in this case no thanks. But many Government advisers

:40:24.:40:27.

feel their first duty is to speak out to the tax-payers whose cash

:40:28.:40:31.

often funds scientific research, not the politician

:40:32.:40:49.

often funds scientific research, not you sacked? I do, since then I have

:40:50.:40:51.

realised there is greater problems as a result of some of the failure

:40:52.:40:56.

to be logical about drugs. Particularly it has been clear in

:40:57.:40:59.

the last few years how medical research is impeded by the drug

:41:00.:41:03.

laws. The laws we put in place to stop people using drugs are stopping

:41:04.:41:07.

scientists using drugs and developing new treatments. Would you

:41:08.:41:10.

say it in the same way as you said in 2009 or would you be judicious.

:41:11.:41:18.

We haven't moved on, I think I would be more forthright. We have mored

:41:19.:41:25.

backwards -- moved backwards. Do you accept that there has to be a

:41:26.:41:29.

calibration by politics in terms of what you say, they have to take into

:41:30.:41:33.

t Times of drug abuse and the politics essentially? I would say if

:41:34.:41:40.

you have good scientific evidence and a policy is not working

:41:41.:41:59.

you have good scientific evidence harmful than LSD, would you

:42:00.:42:03.

decriminalise it? I'm not about that, it is about a more equal

:42:04.:42:07.

playing field to the drugs we suffer from, alcohol and tobacco. You

:42:08.:42:13.

wouldn't decriminalise Dan business? I certainly would. What about

:42:14.:42:18.

ecstacy? Any drugs less harmful than alcohol should be decriminalised. So

:42:19.:42:24.

LSD? I would decriminalise it, as well. I don't think that

:42:25.:42:29.

criminalising people using drugs is any use at all. As we have seen from

:42:30.:42:36.

other countries where we have seen benefits decriminalisation. The

:42:37.:42:41.

herbal CAT is a controversial one? The banning of Cat is a ridiculous

:42:42.:42:49.

one. It does terrible damage? It does no damage. We only banned it

:42:50.:42:51.

because the Americans have does no damage. We only banned it

:42:52.:43:09.

pricing, the way that they treat alcohol, what has gone wrong? They

:43:10.:43:15.

just basically lost courage at the last minute. They started off making

:43:16.:43:18.

the right statement, minimum pricing, it will work and reduce

:43:19.:43:22.

harms to particularly heavy users and then probably due to pressure

:43:23.:43:27.

from the drinks industry they backed off. Do you think that will have

:43:28.:43:31.

long-term damage? Of course it will, alcohol is the leading cause of

:43:32.:43:35.

death in men in this country between t ages of 16-54, minimum pricing

:43:36.:43:41.

would have reduced deaths by 25%. Let's talk about cigarettes,

:43:42.:43:45.

originally there was plan to clear all branding, to clear all

:43:46.:43:51.

advertising from packets, that has now changed? That would have worked

:43:52.:43:55.

and the Australian experience says that is working you take away the

:43:56.:44:00.

glamour of the cigarette. Here are the two things you think are big

:44:01.:44:01.

killers, the two things you think are big

:44:02.:44:21.

are looking at are simplistic ways of appealing to the population and

:44:22.:44:26.

voters. Voters know they are wrong. If the voters knew they were wrong

:44:27.:44:31.

the voters would do the right things themselves they would take less

:44:32.:44:36.

alcohol and smoke fewer cigarettes? They are doing that to some

:44:37.:44:42.

excellent. Let's be clear, every taxpayer pays ?1,000 in tax every

:44:43.:44:47.

year simply to allow us service the level of drinking through health

:44:48.:44:50.

services and policing. There is an enormous tax burden on people

:44:51.:44:53.

because we don't have minimum pricing. The on the other hand

:44:54.:44:57.

people would say free will and make up your on mind, and what you are

:44:58.:45:02.

saying is patronising for people who should be able to decide for

:45:03.:45:05.

themselves? The whole thing about drinking alcohol is to take away

:45:06.:45:10.

your self-control. That is not the only reason? It is one of the

:45:11.:45:29.

the scientists and the Government not getting the message across, you

:45:30.:45:34.

are out of Government now, and the scientists in Government are they

:45:35.:45:38.

supine? I think that Government scientists are in a difficult

:45:39.:45:42.

position, because mostly they don't get listened to. Are they being

:45:43.:45:48.

supine or risk their jobs? I don't see anyone being as forceful as I

:45:49.:45:53.

was. Thanks all for tonight, Emily is here tomorrow. We leave you with

:45:54.:46:02.

a Berlin singing Bronski Boy when a passer-by felt he could do it

:46:03.:46:07.

better. # Turn away

:46:08.:46:14.

# Run away. # Run away

:46:15.:46:19.

# Turn away # Run away

:46:20.:46:21.

# Turn # Run away

:46:22.:46:41.

# Crying to

:46:42.:46:43.

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