Browse content similar to 05/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The war on drugs is being lost, says the former UN Secretary-General. | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
Tonight we go to Peru, the world's cocaine factory to find out why. Sue | :00:14. | :00:25. | |
Lloyd Roberts joins the search and destroy team looking for factories. | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
It is noisy, dramatic but is it effective. For every one air strip | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
destroyed by the Peruvian police, there is a dozen more in the I can't | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
remember remaining operational. Despite the seizure, still more | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
cocaine is getting through the airports and on to our streets. They | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
let the small fish get caught on purpose to distract the officials, | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
so the guy that has a large amount of drugs he gets through. We hear | :00:52. | :00:59. | |
from the Colombian presidential candidate held for six years in the | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
jungle. Call it the battle of Battersea, David Cameron launched | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
his election battle Battersea, David Cameron launched | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
Miliband launched his. We will ask if his cost of living strategy can | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
put him in Downing Street. We say fightback! 400 years on, Parliament | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
Square is full of a different kind of insurgent, tonight we debate the | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
rights and wrongs of fat cat pay. And India sends a probe to Mars at a | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
fraction of the price that America has. Is the race to the red planet | :01:33. | :01:43. | |
getting cheaper? Hello, good evening, is it time to end the war | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
on drugs, is it time in other words to admit the whole fight against the | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
drug underworld is simply not working to do something else. Kofi | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
Annan thinks so. The former UN Secretary-General has recommended | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
that the criminalisation of drug use should be replaced by a public | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
health approach. He's no 70s love child. Tonight we head to Peru, a | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
country with the dubious honour of being the world's largest producer | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
of the coca leaf, the ingredient used in cocaine. Few will forget the | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
spectacle last summer of two women, one British, pleading guilty to drug | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
smuggling out of Peru. The Government there has adopted a | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
radical approach to combat the drugs war. Is it high time for change? | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
Midnight, Lima Airport and another European is found attempting to | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
smuggle out cocaine. Four kilos with a street value of some half a | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
million pounds in London. He faces up to 15 years in jail and the drug | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
will be destroyed. But there's plenty more where it came from. 500 | :02:49. | :03:01. | |
miles north-east in the Amazon Jungle and every clearing here is | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
devoted to the growth of the plant, producing hundreds of tonnes of | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
cocaine for export every year. The police team arrive as part of a | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
Government eradication programme. The plant it be harvested four times | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
a year, and it provides welcome work and money for the locals here, where | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
there is little else. The workers have fled by the time the team pull | :03:27. | :03:37. | |
the roots out from the rich soil. So why the guns? TRANSLATION: The drug | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
trafficking gangs are still here, they have weapons | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
trafficking gangs are still here, attack us. This is why these men | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
need protection. They move on to makeshift laboratories hidden in the | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
thick jungle. Equipped with all the ingredients for cocaine production. | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
Dry leaves crushed with the foot to make a paste. Then acid to produce | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
the powder for the European market. TRANSLATION: We went to London for a | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
meeting with the serious crime squad to exchange information, because we | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
believe some of the drugs from Peru are coming to the UK. There were | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
apparently 15 locals working in dangerous and uncomfortable | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
conditions. They earn more here than they would get from any other crop. | :04:34. | :04:48. | |
But they won't be coming back. They then target the illegal air strip | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
which they blow up to prevent light aircraft from collecting the cocaine | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
at night. To fly to Bolivia, Brazil or Paraguy, from where it goes on to | :05:00. | :05:09. | |
Europe. It is noisy, it is dram Maastricht | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
Treaty but is it effective? For every one Narco Air strip, as they | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
call it here, destroyed by the Pleurx there are a dozen more in the | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
area which remain operational. Which is just one reason why critics say | :05:25. | :05:26. | |
that tackling the problem of is just one reason why critics say | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
in Peru, like a military operation, is not working. This is not a | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
military problem, and one of the few things that we have learned in the | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
last 30 years that this can't be understood as a war. This man was | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
fired from the country's top drugs job, because he claims they don't | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
want to hear what he has to say. We need to talk in economic, social | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
terms. For those who had been excluded the drug business is the | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
way of being part of the globalised economy in the world. Certainly the | :06:09. | :06:17. | |
arrival of the international drug gangs has boosted the economy, near | :06:18. | :06:19. | |
the growing areas where towns gangs has boosted the economy, near | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
now filled with clubs and the girls say business is good. The workers -- | :06:24. | :06:37. | |
TRANSLATION: The workers treat us well, they invite us to dinner. | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
TRANSLATION: The police don't pay us as match. -- much. Growers and | :06:43. | :06:51. | |
hookers rely on the cocaine that needs to go out of the country to | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
bring money back in. There are plenty of drug mules willing to | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
oblige. A flight from the growing areas in the north arrives in the | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
capital, Lima. Back in the airport terminal the 25-year-old Spaniard | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
disembarks and checks in again for a flight to Madrid. But the dogs are | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
on patrol tonight and detect narcotics in his case. The cocaine | :07:19. | :07:26. | |
has been packed by professionals who recruited him in Amsterdam, and paid | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
him 10,000 euros to carry the four kilos that will sell for 50 times | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
that amount in Spain. It was a moment of madness he tells me and he | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
now faces years in jail. But even the police here admit that 90% of | :07:45. | :07:57. | |
the mules get through. Gavin from South Africa who was caught with | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
three kilos has served his prison term, but can't leave | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
three kilos has served his prison paying a fine, he has been living | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
rough on the beach. Thinking back to his arrest he believes he was set | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
up. I was a small fish, they were waiting for me, I know this from | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
many people who have been caught for narcotics traffics. They let the | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
small fish get caught on purpose to distract the officials so that the | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
guy that has a large amount of drugs, gets through. It is all | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
inside jobs. They have got people in the police, they have got people at | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
the airports, they have got people in organised crime. All of them are | :08:40. | :08:49. | |
on the payroll. Visiting day at the prisons which are filled with drug | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
users and mules, the small fish. If a drug baron gets put in here, he | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
can usually buy an official pardon to get out quickly. Conditions are | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
tough, especially for foreigners who don't have family to bring them | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
food. I was forced to take these bags in my luggage. Michaella | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
McCollum and Melissa Reid, both from the UK, who were recently arrested | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
at Lima airport for trying to smuggle 11 kilos of cocaine to Spain | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
are in one of the worst prisons according to Nicole, who served her | :09:28. | :09:36. | |
term in three. It is very cramped. You have not air to breathe there | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
really. You feel like a rat in a cage. It is very hard for these | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
girls. After their latest appearance in court their lawyers said they | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
might be offered a reduced term if they give the police information. | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
Nicole advises them not to. This is a very, very dangerous business. He | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
can kill me in the jail. So I never say the names, I never say anything, | :10:03. | :10:10. | |
I say it is my fault, my things. It is very dangerous if you say the | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
name. And your sentence doesn't go less when you say something, it is a | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
lie. Nicole also can't get home to Germany, and lives in a convanity | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
where the nuns are looking after increasing numbers of former | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
prisoners caught trying to get drugs to Europe. The biggest market for | :10:31. | :10:44. | |
Peruvian cocaine. Back in the Amazon Basin, Matilda Ramirez is a small | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
farmer, who was forced to give up growing the drug by the eradication | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
programme. TRANSLATION: Yes cocaine is profitable, it paid enough money | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
for all my needs. Now I grow cocoa and bananas, and it is not enough to | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
feed my family, let alone send them to school. Many farmers move on to | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
grow coca in areas the eradicators haven't yet reached. Drug experts | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
say that cocaine production can only be tackled by helping the small | :11:18. | :11:26. | |
farmer. I think that we should think on paying directly to them for every | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
single gram of cocaine that is not produced by them. A kind of health | :11:33. | :11:43. | |
preventive tax that should be paid by European countries and that will | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
significantly improve the livelihoods of thousands of persons | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
that are now involved in this economy. | :11:53. | :12:01. | |
But the choppers were in action again today. The eradication | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
programme in Peru gets four-times as much money as that given to farmers | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
to develop alternative crops. A senior police officer here admitted | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
that trying to stop cocaine production this way is like trying | :12:16. | :12:24. | |
to catch the wind. With me now is David Raynes from the international | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
task force on strategic drug policy, part of the National Drug Prevention | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
Alliance as well. And from Oxford is the former Colombian presidential | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
candidate, Ingrid Betancourt, kidnapped and imprisoned for six | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
yeast by the FARC, known for their drugs trade. It is like trying to | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
catch the wind, expensive and hopeless? We are seeing that drugs | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
are socialally corrosive in supply countries and consuming countries as | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
well. Both are affected equally. I know you will talk about what Kofi | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
Annan said that we have to change and adopt a public health approach. | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
That what we normally mean when we hear that language is talking about | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
legalisation. The trouble with that is poor countries do worse out of it | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
than rich countries. Even now the poor people of the favelas in South | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
America and the poor people of Afghanistan using cocaine and crack | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
cocaine, they have no Priory Clinics. Without going down the line | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
of legalisation do you believe the war on drugs, the phrase coined 30 | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
years ago? Tifs coined by the Washington Post in 1929, it was | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
picked up by somebody. And it is never repeat bid people on my side | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
of the debate. I never use "war on drugs". What we are dealing with | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
here is a situation on containment. These things are not fit for human | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
consumption, they damage lives and we have to do our best to contain | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
it. I'm with the people of Peru and we should do for more them. Ingrid | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
Betancourt, your life was utterly changed by your ordeal at the hands | :14:07. | :14:08. | |
of a military organisation of drug changed by your ordeal at the hands | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
Lords essentially. What did that leave you believing? There is, of | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
course, a war on drugs. We could fill it in Columbia in a very | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
harmful way. I would say Columbia is probably the only country that has | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
been successful in the war on drugs. The military forces in Columbia, the | :14:28. | :14:36. | |
comloam -- Colombian police have been heroic in persevering against | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
the drug traffickers. The issue is the Colombian success has meant what | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
we see in Peru. It has crossed the borders. The drug traffickers don't | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
have a nationality. If they are tracked in one country they cross | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
the border to another country. Would your belief be for a country like | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
Peru, I mean can you do anything within the borders now, | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
Peru, I mean can you do anything saying no, so what would be your | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
suggestion? Well I have no proposal. It is really a very difficult | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
question to tackle. What we know is it is a global issue. There is no | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
country that can deal with this issue by its own means or | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
unilaterally. We have seen, for example, what happened in Holland | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
with the legalisation of drugs and we had Holland converted in a hub | :15:33. | :15:42. | |
for crimes. Tourists for drugs was one of the problems it caused. I | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
think there is a fact the global commission on drugs policy stated | :15:48. | :15:57. | |
very clearly in its report two years ago our policy our punitive policy | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
against drugs is failure. We need to begin thinking how we're going to | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
proceed from now on. Would that include a liberalisation of sorts? I | :16:07. | :16:14. | |
don't know what the response is. You know, I think that there is a clear | :16:15. | :16:22. | |
consensus that drugs cannot be over the counter. That it has to be of | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
course as Kofi Annan was saying with the primacy on health issues. But we | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
need enforcement too. The fact is that you see drugs have become a | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
huge financial machine for other crimes. Especially for terrorism. | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
We're talking also about sexual crimes. Especially for terrorism. | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
slavery or organ trafficking. All sorts of crimes have been | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
strengthened by the power of the drug traffickers. Why? Because it | :16:58. | :17:13. | |
is, we're talking about DLO 306 billion US dollars. It is a huge | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
amount of money. They can pay all kinds of weapons. Can I pick up on a | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
couple of points. There is a lot of agreement. There is a lot of | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
agreement GREEMENT. H aye what's that then GREEMENT. One of the | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
things about drugs is we have a shared responsibility between | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
nations not to pick up on each other. The global commission is | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
nations not to pick up on each self-styled global commission, it | :17:41. | :17:42. | |
has no status. What it is and what it represents is the worldwide | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
legalisation movement. It is very heavily funded. We have to be very | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
careful about saying anything in agreement with the global | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
commission. What scares you so much about legalisation? I don't agree | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
with this. The global commission are eminent Presidents and former | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
officials that have been tackling the drug problem. We have, for | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
example, President Gavilia, that was the one that captured, we have the | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
President of Pakistan, Venezuela, Poland and Portugal. When you talk | :18:20. | :18:28. | |
about a huge financing lobby, I'm always very cautious with this. When | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
I was in Columbia, I can say it because I was in the situation. I | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
could is see how the FARC, for example, which was, or is a huge | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
drug cartel was against the legalisation of drugs. Why? Because | :18:43. | :18:51. | |
it is going against the money that they are making. There is a few | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
points there. First of all the people on the global commission, the | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
statesmen are the figureheads, the power behind is are the money from | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
George Sorres, he was at a conference last week promoting. | :19:04. | :19:05. | |
These people have been there, they are not airy fairy? They are | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
figureheads and being used. The message to South America and the | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
south American Presidents that we can legalise it and solve all the | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
problems. It is not correct. You can't take the criminality out of | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
drugs supply by legalising it. In North America for instance heavily | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
regulated prescription drugs are a huge criminal enterprise and... You | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
would be agreeing with the drug cartels? I don't believe that the | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
drug cartels, they will exist whether you legalise it or not. Are | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
they going to pack up or going away, they will be in competition with any | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
legal supply. They are already in competition with legal supply in in | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
the UK. 20% of the UK tobacco market, smuggled, fit or both. Ed | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
Miliband was back on his predator theme today, this time the payday | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
lenders were his targeted beast. He called the poster child of the | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
industry, Wonga, one of the worst symbols of the cost of living crisis | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
and accused the industry as a whole of preying on the vulnerable. It is | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
ground that he believes works well with the public. | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
The Conservatives say living standards will rise as the economy | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
recovers. But today the Secretary singled out the water firms and | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
asked them to look closely at price rises. Are they now fighting for the | :20:24. | :20:34. | |
same political ground? This power station too close to be Westminster | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
to be resisted by politicians hoping to make grand statements. Come with | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
us and we will build a better country together. As it was in the | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
election of 2010, it was today. For the Labour leader. The last story | :20:52. | :21:00. | |
manifesto launched back there was an invitation to join the Tory Britain. | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
They wanted people to run their own schools and nurseries. Ed Miliband | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
was back at Battersea Power Station to talk about different matters. He | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
believes the election will be fought on the cost of living. They the | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
Tories believe it will be who will run the economy best. David Cameron | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
said I was talking about the cost of living crisis because I didn't want | :21:29. | :21:30. | |
to talk about economic policy. We have Prime Minister who thinks we | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
can detatch our national economic success from the success of | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
Britain's families and businesses. He doesn't seem to realise there is | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
no such thing as a successful economy which doesn't carry | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
Britain's families with it. And he obviously doesn't get that the old | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
link between growth and living standards is just broken. Very good | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
speech. But I just want to ask you how will you win the election, have | :21:57. | :21:58. | |
you got some plan in mind? That is how will you win the election, have | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
good question! Part of Ed Miliband's plan today was for higher wage, | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
under a Labour Government employers would receive a tax rebate in return | :22:08. | :22:16. | |
for paying a worker ?7.65 an hour, the called living wage. Is it an | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
election-winning agenda. When you ask which party is best to deal with | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
the cost of living. They say the Labour Party is best placed. When | :22:25. | :22:26. | |
you talk about the economy in general people say the | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
Conservatives. And the gap between Conservatives and Labour has been | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
growing in 2013. So what Labour will hope to do is say, yes, people may | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
see the economy growing, but that the other people are being left | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
behind. It is those people that feel they are being left behind, that | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
feel their living standards are not improving. Despite an improvement in | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
the economy. It is those people they will want to appeal to at the next | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
election which we are pretty certain will be fought on the issue | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
election which we are pretty certain economy. That is one pollster | :22:57. | :22:58. | |
arguing the economy will trump the cost of living in 2015, but the | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
Government, nonetheless, floats modest more sells of its own. Today | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
a formal request that water companies keep their prices down? Do | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
the Tories need to do more? Do they need to reach out to low-paid | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
Britain? One of them did yesterday and I nouncing a new voluntary rate | :23:18. | :23:25. | |
for the living wage. I'm free marketeer I brief in low taxation, | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
yes, management's right to manage. I'm a classical liberal economist. | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
Indeed I would go so far as to say that I am a Thatcherite. But I'm | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
also, and I should say, I'm also a passionate believer in the London | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
also, and I should say, I'm also a living wage. Do you think that the | :23:47. | :23:48. | |
link between wages and growth has broken, because a lot of people do | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
think that? I think it is very important when you have a city like | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
London that is powering ahead in so many ways and which unquestionably | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
creates such Titanic fortunes that you should be paying the people who | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
keep the wheels of London turning you should pay decent incomes. What | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
about the link? The London living age, I think that link needs to be | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
maintained. Tories in Westminster are worried about the rising cost of | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
living. They think that not all parts of the economy are feeling the | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
recovery. But there are different views about what you do about it. | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
You could increase the personal tax allowance, or the minimum wage. Give | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
more people more of their own money back. Or there that group that -- | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
more people more of their own money there is that group that think you | :24:40. | :24:41. | |
don't need to do anything. There are those who believe that wages will | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
rise next year just before the general election. But the key thing | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
for this group is making sure interest rates don't also creep up. | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
So wages up, yes, just not mortgage rates. | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
Labour promising action on the cost of living, the Government unsure how | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
much to counter offer. The battle of Battersea Power Station. | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
Well, this is what politics is going to be about for the next 12 months. | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
Let's unpick how effective the arguments are. Joining me now Danny | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
Finkelstein, Tory peer and lead writer at the Times, and John | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
McTiernan, who used to advise Tony Blair. Ed Miliband clearly thinks | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
this is very fertile territory for him. He's sticking with it, is he | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
right? He has set the public conversation for every week since | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
the Labour Party Conference. He's got on to cost of living, and it is | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
a battle of the frames. The Tories want to talk about facts and figures | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
and the economy and want to get Labour on to managing the economy, | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
and Ed wants to go it is not about the economy it is what people feel | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
and in their hearts. The polls are contradictory on it, people are | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
saying it is a good idea but it will lead to higher prices on fuel, if | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
you are talking about the energy freeze, for example? People to some | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
extent feel genuine pressure but they don't believe anybody can help | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
them. It is part of the sense that politics don't matter any more. It | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
is appalling it and you say 80% of people support it but 52% don't | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
believe he would do it as Prime Minister. He has a huge credibility | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
issue there so that he will do what he says. Will what he promises | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
deliver what he says it will, a completely other question. The worry | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
for the Conservatives is they are putting all the weight behind the | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
idea of the economy recovering. What if people have banked that already? | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
And also that people don't feel it will help them. The Conservative | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
Party has a long standing problem that people think they are for them | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
rather than for us, that is a big problem. He's putting his finger on | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
a problem. He's clearly running with an issue that matters to people. The | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
only problem with it is you can't improve people's wages. The economy | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
has to get better. His big problem at the base of it is that the | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
argument doesn't work. He can nudge people to pay more, because I don't | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
believe that every company sets the wage that it possibly can. So it | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
might improve. But if you are going to give people a tax cut for a year, | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
say, in order to improve people's wages permanently, very few | :27:11. | :27:12. | |
companies are going to do that because they can't afford it. | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
companies are going to do that if the Conservatives were confident | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
on that argument they wouldn't keep offering these little things like | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
the water companies' letter or the rail fares cap. Why do they keep on | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
walking towards that? For the reasons I have suggested. Two | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
reasons, one is obviously any Government of the centre right needs | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
to do what it can to improve the amount of money in people's pockets | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
and the competition in water. You have to do those things, and | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
secondly because they need to politically. This is the | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
vulnerability. People will believe that the Conservative Party can do | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
something about the economy. But it is fatal for the Conservative Party | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
if they don't think, if they think the money is coming in but it is | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
going to someone else not them. People are prone to that view. You | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
do have to do what can you, and Ed Miliband is right to press on the | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
dilemma, he does have one himself, which is as John said, will it work | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
and people rightly think, hang on, how can we be paid more. You can't | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
write yourself a cheque and make yourself rich. He was keen to keep a | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
centrist ground for the first couple of years, he seems to be embracing | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
the Red Ed tag, is that right? He has gone further to the right on | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
immigration than Tony Blair would have dared to. He's a very | :28:25. | :28:26. | |
calculating politician, there is no doubt about that. I think he is a | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
populist on welfare and immigration. He is reaching to populist elements | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
on the right, on this issue he's reaching to populist elements of the | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
left. He has a consistent frame in that he's trying to address his | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
positive issues are about emotions and connections. The problem the | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
Tories have on the one hand they are logic chopping, look at the number, | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
embrace the pain, we had to go through the pain, they are saying | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
there is a sweetie there. You either have to be dad and say it is for | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
your own good or mum and say you can have the sweets. Are there more | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
sweeties to come? I think the central Conservative argument for | :29:04. | :29:05. | |
the election has to be Britain's on the right track, don't turn back, | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
using that cliche. They have to say the economy still needs fixing and | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
it isn't fixed yet. They have to suggest that by Ed Miliband jumping | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
ahead to people as living standards. There is a contradiction, they are | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
talking about dropping the green levies and whip ceasing the personal | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
-- increasing the personal levy. Are they just being dangled? Neither | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
party will be able to do an awful lot about people's living standards | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
in the short-term. The country borrowed too much and has to reduce | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
the deafcy. As you do that the basic maths is people won't be better off. | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
Ed Miliband announced this thing on the living wage, I thought it was | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
imaginative but I don't think it will help much, you can't pay people | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
imaginative but I don't think it what they can't earn and the country | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
can't pay out what it doesn't have. If the economy does recover is Ed | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
Miliband doomed on the strategy in People do believe the economy is | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
recovering, and why wouldn't they, it is recovering. It was driven into | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
a ditch by the Tories and now it is coming out of the ditch. The | :30:08. | :30:09. | |
difficulty for the Tory Party is simply this, when people are asked | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
about is it getting better in your area, and they go no. There is a | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
good reason for, that they are on static or falling wages. If the | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
question is do you feel better off today than five years ago, people | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
say no. We are listening, we get it absolutely, we know there is a | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
problem. The words with which the Centrica boss waved his bonus | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
package and white flag to signal to customers he was on side. A | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
foregoing of a bonus in every sector has been a symbol. What will it | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
change, bills won't come down and bankers won't get less, is it a | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
vague nod to public accountability, or the slippery path to mob rule. We | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
report from the boardroom now. When a big corporate boss turns down his | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
million-pound bonus, what is he doing? Is it an act of contrition, a | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
recognition that executive pay is just too high, even in times like | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
these, indecent? Or is he appeasing the gods of public opinion to hold | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
them at bay. Opening a valve to let the steam out of popular outrage, | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
biceping a fleeting moment of humiliation. Public fury has put | :31:23. | :31:37. | |
bankers, BBC executives and MPs fiddling expenses into the 21st | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
century equivalent of the stocks. We have vented our fury, what good does | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
it do. Aren't these industry bosses courting public approval? I don't | :31:50. | :31:51. | |
really see it, our style is much more cool and forensic. We leave to | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
other committees to have their own style, if that involves pill | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
lorrying people -- pillorying people that is it. So many thoughts and | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
ideas are driven by Twitter, there is this fantastic incentive and | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
politicians are not immune to that to pile in denouncing something | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
where often people don't know the facts. Does it change anything. Big | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
salaries and even bigger bonuses go on. And why not if they reward real | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
success. One telecoms boss told Radio 4 today | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
that the ?3 million she earned last One telecoms boss told Radio 4 today | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
year was justified. I think one of the great challenges of Britain, and | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
I love this country, is that we're really good at slagging off success. | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
And if we want to have a growing economy we want to have thriving | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
successful growing businesses. And people who aspire to lead them. | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
Because they do well as a result. I don't think there is anything wrong | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
with that, provided there is complete transparency and your | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
customers, shareholders and colleagues get to see. The former | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
BBC executive who got a pay-off last year worth nearly a million pounds | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
spoke on Radio 5 live today, no ritual sacrifice from him to placate | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
the public mood. Those terms given to me were approved by the | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
appropriate body, the BBC's remuneration committee of | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
independent non-executive directors, I wasn't there and took no part in | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
it, I was given what I was given. I lost my job, given what I was given | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
and agreed to do what the BBC wanted. In the City of London, what | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
has changed. The bonus system that awarded short-term profits still | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
function, there is no overhaul of governance. The former chief | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
executive of RBS, Fred Goodwin, became a totemic figure as the plan | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
who helped plunge us all into recession and mountainous public | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
debt. Into the pillory went Fred Goodwin, striped of his knighthood, | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
public opinion wanted him striped of his six-figure pension too, but | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
public opinion is not the law. And under the law he was obliged to hold | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
his employers to the contract they agreed with him. In a democracy the | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
rule of law is what stands between all of us, Fred Goodwin included, | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
and the arbitary exercise of power. Where would the justice be in that. | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
Public grievance with executive pay and bonuses in the UK is part of | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
something global. This summer protesters took to the streets of | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
tarok to op -- Turkey to oppose the redevelopment of an Istanbul park. | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
It wasn't about the park, it was about a disaffected population that | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
had come to believe its power elites were out-of-touch with and | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
unaccountable to ordinary citizens. Here the electoral rise of UKIP is | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
not a passing phase, it is an expression in part of a growing | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
public frustration with a sense of powerless. Over the last decades | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
national Governments have ceded a lot of power to the global market | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
place. People can sack MPs by refusing to re-elect them. How they | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
can hold to account global capitalism, in a world increasingly | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
without national frontiers. This offshore world that has emerged and | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
the powerlessness it renders to national communities is hugely | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
overstated. We can, if we choose, make Google pay tax. We can if we | :35:10. | :35:17. | |
choose say these are the terms for a British bank doing business in these | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
islands. We can if we choose say if you want to sell electricity, gas | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
and water there are ownership obligation that is come with that | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
right. I think we have -- obligations that come with that | :35:30. | :35:36. | |
right. I think we have been far too feeble. But public opinion we | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
demands the stockades. And is it ever byesself really effective. -- | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
by itself really effective. How to how old to account global | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
capitalism. November 5th has long been the place for insurgents | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
against capitalism. Here are the masked demonstrators campaigning | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
against amongst other things big payouts. The only thing that got | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
hung, drawn and quartered was Sam Laidlaw's bonus. With us to discuss | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
it is Nicola Horlick, and Deborah Hargreaves, director of the High Pay | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
Centre set to reduce high pay. Do you believe anything is achieved by | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
the high-profile media scalpings, offering up the totemic bonus? It is | :36:20. | :36:27. | |
a guessture, but we need to put something more systemic in place. To | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
have some structures in place that stop these huge excessive payouts to | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
executives. Interestingly on Sam Laidlaw's bow New York when you | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
think that one of the measures for which he achieves that bonus is | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
customer trust, you wonder if he would have been due a bonus at all | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
with price rises. That is neb blues of course, can you -- neb butless -- | :36:50. | :37:01. | |
nebules, or can you ever justify a huge bonus for a executive of the | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
company? I don't think so, the shareholders own the company and | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
they should say it is not acceptable. For some reason they | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
haven't said that. Do you think every energy boss should be doing | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
the same thing, would you go on the big six? It is not just energy but | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
large public companies. There is a marked difference between somebody | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
building a business, entrepenurally, a lot of sacrifices are made when | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
you set up a business. When you build a business and succeed and | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
sell it or part of it and become wealthy, that is great. That is | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
fantastic. But if you are just walking into a very large job with | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
this huge bonus and really your efforts aren't going to make a | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
difference to the way the business is run. The gap now between the | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
average pay and the boss is so huge Deborah has the statistics. You are | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
saying you don't trust shareholders to be making the right decisions? I | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
think it is strange they think it is OK to hand out millions of pounds to | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
these people. I don't know why they think it is OK. You don't worry that | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
is the new status quo, that people won't want to take on these big | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
jobs. Look at Stephen Hester, was he right to forego bonuses? He was in a | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
slightly divan position, because -- different position, because we, in | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
effect, the tax-payers ended up own the company. I'm talking about | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
companies on the stock market, these are not entrepenural businesses, but | :38:30. | :38:36. | |
people are walking into the jobs to be paid millions of pounds because | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
they have that title. We mustn't forget these people are not the only | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
people creating profits in the company. It depends on the whole of | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
the work force, and yet work force wages have been held down for years, | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
no-one has had an above inflation pay rise in the general work force, | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
yet the bosses have seen their pay go up by 7-10% a year for the past | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
10%. That is an average of ?4. 5 million. You would be prepared as a | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
leading figure in the City to stand up and say the gap is too big, the | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
wage disparity is too big, bankers shouldn't be paid that, George | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
Osborne shouldn't be fighting the corner for bonuses in Brussels now | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
is that right? I do feel very strongly that is the case. I on | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
is that right? I do feel very day-to-day basis raise money for | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
entrepeneurs to develop their business. I have moved away from | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
managing large pension funds. That is what I do now. I think it is, I | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
sort of looked at what these people have to go through to establish | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
their businesses. A lot of people these days can't get money from | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
bank. They are borrowing money on credit cards to set up their | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
companies, they are mortgaging their houses. How do you feel about that. | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
Presumably Deborah you would welcome Government intervention? I think we | :39:50. | :39:51. | |
need to have structures in place that try to restrain pay. Therefore | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
we have said we want to see workers for example voted on to boards, or | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
remuneration committees. To try to introduce a little bit of common | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
sense-thinking into some of those deliberations on pay. And also you | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
have got to look at the pay ratio, we have now got 160-times average | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
CEO pay to average pay across the work force. We could just cap them, | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
we could cap salaries? That is where I would draw the line. I don't think | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
Governments should intervene, it is shareholders who own companies and | :40:25. | :40:26. | |
shareholders need to take a stand. It is not for Governments to get | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
involved in what people are paid. What about a systemic change, what | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
about an actual cap or regulation that is in place? But we're seeing | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
democracy at work, part of it is us having this discussion now. You | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
don't mind what we might loosely call mob rule, and people deciding | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
even if a contract has been drawn up under the rule of law and | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
contractual law, if that gets torn up and thrown out the window? | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
Unfortunate low you can't do that. Because it is -- unfortunately you | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
can't do that, it is a contract. When people are up in arms and say | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
it is terrible this person has had payout. If there is a contract in | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
place that is the way it is. I think there is discretion over contracts. | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
For next time. Thank you. It seems incredible that a space project that | :41:10. | :41:17. | |
apparently combat under way 15 -- got underit a15 months ago launched | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
a spacecraft to Mars. India will reach the red planet for a fraction | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
of the American mission. Is this the beginning of the democratisation of | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
the space industry. Will any country soon have the conquest of space in | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
its reach. Or will it remain the preserve of richer nations? In its | :41:36. | :41:48. | |
early decades the exploration of space brought us wonder. And a new | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
view of our planet. And the conquest of space came to epitomise | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
earth-bound feuds. The space race is too benign a label. This | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
earth-bound feuds. The space race is bitter battle between two Cold War | :42:02. | :42:10. | |
superpowers. But the time has gone when only the US and Russia could | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
afford the gar Ganttian cost of being a space-faring nation. I had | :42:16. | :42:22. | |
seen the moon landing as a young boy. And I always thought one day | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
I'm going to do that. Two models are emerging, cheaper, faster, smarter | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
commercial missions. The spirit behind Richard Branson's quest to | :42:35. | :42:42. | |
sell tickets for space. And aspiring, slimmed down, state | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
missions. Such as Iran's bizarre claims to have sent a monkey into | :42:47. | :42:57. | |
space earlier this year. You Live off. Lift off normal. India's | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
successful launch today sent a powerful message about its place in | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
the world and its aspirations. In striving to do space exploration as | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
America did in the 1960s, it can be a driver to making your society | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
smarter. So America thought itself smarter by placing human footprints | :43:20. | :43:27. | |
on the moon. In trying to reach Martian orbit the Indian generation | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
inspired by the moves the Government are making are ThinkBroadbanding | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
themselves smarter too. For -- Are thinking themselves smarter too. | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
Today's launch brings inspiration for scientists and engineers | :43:42. | :43:43. | |
Today's launch brings inspiration technological spark for the economy. | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
For many outside observers the astonishing thing is they were able | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
to do so cheaply? It was audacious that they attempted to do something | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
that previously only two or three nations have had the capablities to | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
do. And suddenly come up with a programme that seems to be | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
succeeding so far for this very, very comparatively small amount of | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
money. In theory India and China are minnows in the world of space | :44:13. | :44:19. | |
endeavour. Both spend about $1. 3 billion a year, compared to NASA's | :44:20. | :44:31. | |
$17 billion. India's mission cost $70 million, a lot less than the | :44:32. | :44:38. | |
NASA project. The success of India and China with limited budgets has | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
made getting into space tempting for new competitors, such as South | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
America, Brazil and Iran. A challenge to the space programmes | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
that produced the Apollo and other space programmes. The average age is | :44:56. | :45:04. | |
57 nowadays, NASA is finding it difficult to recruit people because | :45:05. | :45:06. | |
it is not seen as the big opportunity for people it once was. | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
Instead the bright sparks are increasingly attracted to companies | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
such as Space X, selling cut price services back to NASA. Elon Mussk is | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
someone who has driven the cost of reaching space down. He has how have | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
we got into space in the past, Governments have centrally funded | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
it, they have hired people in companies to hire other people in | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
companies and sub, sub, sub-contract things out in order to bring rocket | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
engines, boosters and spacecraft. You can cut out a lot of that | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
pyramid structure and do things far more straight and efficiently with a | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
single level. India faced criticism today that nation with so much | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
poverty should not be spending money reaching for the stars. But others | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
see this as essential for the country's future growth. It is an | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
investment which India needs to make if it has to remain at the | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
frontlines of technology in the world. And space is a brave man's | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
business. India invests heavily towards that. Nearly half a century | :46:18. | :46:25. | |
ago it was the moon, now it is Mars and beyond that is the goal for the | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
growing pool of nations able to flex their muscles in space. That's all | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
for tonight. Kirsty is back tomorrow, we leave you with a few of | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
the paintings put on display today from the 1400 looted during the | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
Second World War and found hidden away earlier this year in the Munich | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
flat of one Gavin Gebhardt. | :46:51. | :46:57. |