07/11/2013 Newsnight

Trust me I'm a spy. Put as baldly as that it may not carry the ring of

complete confidence, but that was in essence The pitch of the three most

senior officials today as they appeared before a group of

politicians. They say this man's revelations about

politicians. They say this man's a profit. Is it a business or a

bubble? As the Commonwealth RDZ itself to

meet in Sri Lanka, we hear from Tamil who is say they have been

raped and tortured by Sri Lankan authorities as recently as this

Kensington and Chelsea, welcome to some of the most real estate in

Britain. Are parts of this country like nothing so much now as another

country. Desbanker, banker, banker, and I can't tell them apart, they

have the wives that go like this and a motorcycle that they put their

children in. The skinny women! MI five and GCHQ testified thus

before a Parliamentary Committee today. We have to take their word

for what they say has occurred, which itself rather points up the

problem of trying to maintain political surveillance on

intelligence surveillance. We eavesdropped on it all. It has

taken a long journey out of the shadows to something like shadows.

Successive chiefs and DGs of MI6 and MI5, fought a rear guard action

against coming into the light. Clearly openness is something that

we're moving down the road on. It is now over 20 years that we have

we're moving down the road on. It is demonstration, I believe, of the

Government's commitment both to the need for the sort of intelligence

that we can provide and their confidence in the service as it now

is. The MI6 boss spoke on the record,

but off camera. I was at that press conference 20 years ago and

incidentally we journalists haven't had another chance to cross-examine

heads of MI6 and GCHQ on the record since then. But the thing that

really sticks in my mind about that meeting was the degree to which the

heads of those agencies thought they could limit their public exposure,

they didn't want to be photographed, and they thought that the new

commitmenty being established at that time, and which -- committee

being established at that time and that met again today could be kept

out of any scrutiny of their operations. Today

out of any scrutiny of their hindsight we were not configured in

2001 for the scale of the terrorist threat that this country faced after

9/11. Our people weren't trained for it, we didn't have the experience

for it or the resources for it. It took us some time to adapt to the

scale of the threat we faced. This committee was set up 20 years ago,

but its powers have expanded considerably. Even so there were

signs today that the recent disclosures about the extent of

electronic surveillance came as news to some members.

We weren't ware of the intricacies, whilst we appreciate a lot of this

is a very confidential nature and the co-operation that you have with

other -- aware with the intricacies, we appreciate a lot of this is very

confidential the co-operation you have with others. Can we have a

commitment that you will give us the e-mails of the vast majority,

that would not be proportional or legal we do not do it. It would be

nice if terrorists or criminals used a particular method of communication

and everybody else used something else. That is not the case. It would

be very nice if we knew who all the terrorists and serious criminals

were, but the Internet is a great way of making those anonymous. The

moves towards making MI5 more open, and were prepared to make occasional

speeches but not cross-examined. Secret organisations need to say

secret, even if we present an occasion public face as I am doing

today. Today they showed they also learned the value of a public

platform, launching attacks on those who had published Edward Snowden's

revelation, alleging grave damage to national security. The

lapping it up. We have seen terrorist groups in south Asia and

other places discussing the revelations in terms of the

communication packages they use and they wish to move to. There are

budgets to justify too, MI5 has twice the people it had at the end

of the Cold War, and justifies why it thinks that is right. Since 7/7

there have been 34 plots against this country at all sizes and

stages. I have referred publicly and my predecessors have that one or two

of those are major plots aimed at mass casualty that have been

attempted each year. The hearing ended with many feeling they heard

the start of a conversation that will now go on in closed session.

The accountability question likewise has

The accountability question likewise the word of the Intelligence

Services on trust? Well it is part of a democracy, and it is why it is

so important as I was saying in the Guardian earlier this week. That we

built trust in the system. Because once people lose that trust then

they are not just sceptical, which is healthy, but they become cynical,

which isn't, because then they would preclude the Security Services from

being able to develop the measures in taking on new technology and

rapid change in the use of new technology which will save us from

all sorts of threats including cyber.

But you also suggested in that article that we needed a breath of

scepticism. What did you mean? I believe that we need to challenge as

ministers and in believe that we need to challenge as

you ever feel you were misled during your time at the Home Office? I felt

that there were times, I have to be very careful here there were times

when the enthusiasm for doing the job, the commitment, sometimes

overrode judgment which is why, although politicians are rarely

trusted, it is important to have politicians asking the kind of

questions that you would expect to ask yourself, Jeremy, and the public

would ask of themselves. And on many occasions we had robust discussions

and sometimes I was persuaded and on occasions I wasn't Do you think on

some occasions you might have been persuaded too easily? I think there

is danger when you come into a serious job like home or Foreign

Secretary, that you come in, serious job like home or Foreign

have had the case overstated to you or you have been misled. I think

there is always a danger in public life that case is overstated to make

a point. A case is overstated because people are so committed,

they are so carried away with what they know that they want you to

believe. We're all occasionally guilty of doing this. In something

as important as the security of our country you have to believe that

these people know what they are doing but something as important as

civil liberties and our rights, you have to be prepared to ask the

awkward question when it would be easier simply to go along with it.

Do you aDWREE with the head of MI six I6 that what -- MI6 that what

Edward Snowden disclosed will six I6 that what -- MI6 that what

example who it should be that makes the final judgment on such sensitive

material. Should it be even the most well informed and sensitive editor

of a newspaper or should we have a better system within the democratic

political agreen Take That allows -- arena that aLOETS that -- allows

that to take place. With people like you and the intelligence agencies,

the cards haven't been dealt evenly, there will be a point in the

conversation where they could say to you "you will just have to trust

us"? I think there will be occasions and when you err on the side of

caution and caution would be back to that preset that the first and most

fundamental that preset that the first and most

disposal. These are such difficult delicate issues that I think the

debate is a good one. But the solution has to be something better

than people stealing material and then presuming that they know best

in terms of what should be put in the public arena. David Blunkett,

thank you. With us now is Sir Francis Richard,

former director of GCHQ, the Guardian columnist, Simon Jenkins

and Hazel Blears, former counter terrorism minister. Francis

Richards, were you one of those whose enthusiasm and commitment

overrode your judgment? I didn't think so. There is no purpose to

having secret intelligence agencies if they don't tell the truth to

power. That is what they are there for. Ever come a point in a

conversation then certainly, I confessed. But you

were happy in principle to tell them virtually everything you knew about

your suspicions on the basis of your evidence? Yes, that is what we are

there for. Hazel Blears did you know, as a member of the

intelligence oversight committee did you know the extent of GCHQ

surveillance in Britain? Yes, I would say that the committee did

have a broad understanding of what the capabilities of GCHQ were. And

do you judge that was all right? We have been looking at them for threy,

we have been on several visits. We have had very confidential briefings

about what the capabilities were and obviously we were satisfied that

they were operating within our legal framework. The question I put to

Iain Lobban today was quite a tough question, I asked him to guarantee

that he wasn't conducting any operations that weren't covered by

the British legal framework and he gave

the British legal framework and he what they can do and what they were

doing, in terms of being able to select information. The point that

was made sod is they could collect that information but in order to go

further and look at content or data they have to have a target set of

people of interest. So the rest of the population are not people of

interest. You knew about Tempora then? We didn't know the names of

these projects and I'm sure the exact same situation applies in

America. In terms of broad capabilities we did. We also heard

that Iain Lobban confirm that when we are in private session and we

meet every single week in private session he certainly will go into

more detail both about the damage that has been done and also about

the broad capabilities as well. In that case you knew precisely how big

a sham the communications data bill was, didn't you? No, the

Communications Data Bill was about trying to put on a

keep the data you can't interrogate it. Do you think if the committee

knew what was going on why didn't they tell you? More to the point,

this is the biggest lapse in intelligence security of our

generation, since the war, it is a colossal lapse. That is not the

point, I'm asking about oversight? The claps was oversight, you would

assume someone would have said you distribute

assume someone would have said you Francis you at least accept had it

not been for Edward Snowden and those disclosures we wouldn't see

those three people before a Parliamentary Committee? I don't

think that is necessarily right, I don't think it would have happened

today but that is the direction which things are moving. The

position of the agencies has changed enormously in the last ten years, as

the chief security threats to this country have become covert. That

means that they have moved from the rear of the country's defences into

the front line. They cannot operate without trust and that trust is

going to demand a much closer relationship both for them and the

oversight with the public. The reason why I stayed and did this,

Edward Snowden was not a disloyal enemy of security, the reason he did

it is he simply saw his bosses lying to Congress over and over again. The

monitoring system to Congress over and over again. The

unbelievably lucky that he didn't put it all on the Internet or give

it to an enemy. He gave it to a newspaper and they have published

less than 1% of the material. You are perfectly happy that a newspaper

editor is competent to judge what may or may not be safely made

public? In this case, every story is matter of trust on the part of the

editor. In this case a tiny percentage of it was considered in

the public interest, it was all shown to security officials before

it was published, a lot was deDAKTed as a result of that. It was as

precise an exercise as you could have performed. What is your

analysis? I think Edward Snowden has placed the information in places

where it was inevitable. It has been given wider circulation by those

capable of accessing it. Do you think the newspapers acted

responsibly in this case? Can I think the newspapers acted

the act. For the first time we have powers to go into the agencies and

look at their documents and see primary intelligence materials.

Oversight is never going to be perfect, but actually it is an awful

lot more stringent than it used to be.

GCHQ were boasting in their own documents that they had an easier

life as they were concerned than the Americans were having. That is what

they call the unique selling proposition of GCHQ service, they

were selling to NSA, they were utterly insecure. It is insecure.

Francis Richards how worried were you by Edward Snowden's disclosures?

Very worried. Intelligence only works if you can do things that your

targets, those who threaten national security don't know you can do. If

you put out a huge quantity of what you have

you put out a huge quantity of what never going to leak? I'm not

responsible for American oversight and nor is the Intelligence and

Security Committee. I don't think we are talking about that. All of your

material was accessible to NSA, they had access to the material and were

clearly unable to keep it safe. That in my mind is the security threat?

We are talking about British oversight here, not about American.

How secure is this information that you have not in the Guardian

disclosed? It is locked in a room. It is locked in a room is it? It is

not in the keeping of Glenn Greenwald. No, it is locked in a

room. Where? In America. Are you certain? Yeah. Why is Mr Greenwald's

partner flying around the world with a computer

partner flying around the world with catastrophe, not the Guardian's

fault. Given a good story I think we did the most responsible thing we

did given a good story is to work out which was in the public

interest. Which is what we did do. You have this information, it is

your problem? To that extent you are right. And you are asking us to

trust you that you will make a sensible judgment in the best

interests of people w are the sworn enemies of others to whom this will

be used? We are safer custodians of it than GCHQ and NSA were. Almost a

million people had access to this material, the wicky leaks has access

for -- Wikileaks has access to it. A man flying around the world with a

computer full of the most secret information that there is to have,

with password on a piece information that there is to have,

effect en Clair. What do you make of the judgment, many would say the

Guardian did act responsibly in deciding not to release everything?

You heard from Iain Lobban today that he has evidence, direct

evidence of groups of terrorists who would seek to harm our country, now

discussing the specific revelations and how they might change their

operating techniques to evade scrutiny in the future. He has

promised in a private session he will give us more information about,

that the actual evidence we can see, and I very much look forward to

being able to drill down into that. I think this is matter of major

concern for the country, if groups are seeking to evade our scrutiny

then that could result in harm. This is a cat and mouse game all the time

with the technology, the terrorists with the technology, the terrorists

changing the way they behave. I wasn't very surprised, it shows GCHQ

is doing its job. Were you worried, distressed? It seemed to confirm

what the most alarmist reports indicated? It confirmed what one

already knew to be the case. It would be very surprising if, given

the scale of the revelations that have been made, our enemies were not

making arrangements to use more secure methods of communication that

they don't think we can access. Do you think, Simon, we are ever going

to get to a point where you can have and we can get beyond saying you are

just going to have to trust me on this? It is like a haystack, we

just going to have to trust me on want your society to surrender all

its PRIFies and freedoms in the interests -- PRIF sees, and in the

interests of stopping not that many terrorists. How many lives do you

think it is worth? It is not world war that could break out? It could

be a very serious terrorist incident? It is not a world war that

will break out a very serious terrorist incident? It is not a

world war that will break out. Ruby Wax rubbishes the neighbours. It is

a cat and mouse game, how rich are you? Represents of the Governments

of the Commonwealth meet next week in Sri Lanka to discuss good

governance, democracy and mutual aid. Those worthy values seem to

many of those aid. Those worthy values seem to

distressing images and some of the interviewees names have been changed

NIER protection. This is what the Sri Lankan Government wants you to

see, an Indian Ocean paradise recovering from decades of war.

But there is also dark side to this beautiful island. Four years after

the conflict ended terrible things are still going on. I have now

collected compelling evidence from 12 people, both men and women who

say they have been raped in decontinuation by members of the Sri

Lankan security forces this year. It is impossible toor rob rate every

detail of each person's story, but I have spoken to doctor, seen medical

reports and in some cases people have been granted asylum in Europe

on the In 2009 the Sri Lankan army slushed

-- army crushed the Tamil Tigers. They used child soldiers and

assassinated prime ministers and Presidents. The United Nations

accused the Government and tigers of committing war crimes and crimes

against humanity in the final months of the war. Acoring to the UN, up to

70 thou civilians were killed, the majority

70 thou civilians were killed, the photographs, believed to have been

taken by Government soldiers at the end of the war appear to show dead

Tamil women. The UN said these images demonstrated a strong

inference that rape or sexual violence may have occurred either

prior to or after execution. It is rare for Tamil women to talk about

sexual abuse. But with no hope of justice, some women are now starting

to speak out in the hope of stopping this happening to others. To our

knowledge this is the first Tamil rape survivor to recount her ordeal

in public. Nandini says she was abducted and raped this year. But it

is not just women who talk of sexual abuse. Ravi says he was forced to

join the Tamil Tiger rebels for the last six months of the war. Before

being detained for nearly four years last six months of the war. Before

ex-rebels. Stories like these are only emerging now, because it has

taken years for former Tamil Tigers, like Ravi to escape abroad and be

able to speak out. We found six Tamils in the UK who also alleged

torture in the rehabilitation programme. Four of them have

Government documentation to prove they were in the camps and

independent medical reports establishing torture. This British

doctor has seen many Sri Lankans branded

doctor has seen many Sri Lankans former rebel was detained and badly

tortured, right in the heart of the capital. He has official documents

to prove where and when he was held. His doctor says he will never fully

recover. Seva himself despairs of ever getting justice. We shared the

evidence in this film of on going rape and torture with a leading

British lawyer. The cases you have gathered are striking in that they

have common features in relation to how the victims are picked up, what

happens to them, particularly there is evidence of cigarettes being used

to burn the victims in order to get compliance. And basically to carry

out torture. The use of cigarettes has long been held to be within the

definition of torture. So there is absolutely no dispute upon that.

definition of torture. So there is looking at them being referred to

the International Criminal Court for further investigation. We asked the

Sri Lankan Government for a response. The High Commision in

London said it was not fair to expect them to respond fully to

allegations contained in anonymous testimony. Their written statements

suggested our interviewees could have been paid to discredit Sri

Lanka or even tortured in the past by the Tamil Tigers

Next week Prince Charles, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary

will be in Sri Lanka for the Commonwealth meeting. Canada is the

lone voice of dissent, its leaders boycotting because they say they are

not in the business of accommodating evil.

In a statement to the BBC evil.

on the BBC News channel this weekend on Saturday and Sunday evening at

9.30pm. Twitter shares put on sale, market goes nuts, there in 140

characters is the story of what happened on the New York Stock

Exchange today. It often seems everybody is on it, Twitter has yet

to make a profit. That didn't put off buyers, and soon the cost of a

single share had getting on for doubled its price. Don't anyone

mention the dotcom bubble or the Dutch TU little mania of 1637.

Gillian Tett won't or she might. Can you understand it? I think many

people would think what happened today is completely bonkers.

Basically Twitters' shares have doubled. The market cap is bigger

than Yahoo, Time doubled. The market cap is bigger

global equity markets awash with cash from central banks and you

don't actually have that many companies who have a good growth

story to tell. The story of Twitter is incredible. Not only do so many

people use it, it is a story of a bunch of scrappy entrepeneur, who

used innovation and came back from failure to build a great story, it

is a kind of story that American investors love to look at. That is a

fable, it is not a profit base? It is a future Hollywood film I'm sure.

Can these returns ever be justified? Well the Twitter team, the current

CEO said he's looking at acquisitions and getting very savvy.

Using advertising to try to build a revenue stream. One of the big

questions is are people who use Twitter going to accept having

advertising coming into their messages or not?

bubble? I think the more important parallel is actually with the IT

bubble. The DT combubble? -- the dotcom bubble? You had a lot of

shares growing rapidly and there was hype and excitement, many companies

later suffered badly. More recently though you can look to companies

like Linkedin and they have had a good run and cop TRAS with Groupon

and Zing who had excitement at the start and didn't deliver. It is

whether people will be willing to let advertisers use their data for

those on Twitter. Would you? Only time will tell. I won't answer that

question! Thank you very much. Now a story from one of this country's

ghettos, it has been revealed that the poor, and that is undoubtedly

the wrong world, the poor people of the borrowing of Kensington and

Chelsea are -- the borrowing of Kensington and

tax may not bother the natives and Russian royal barons of the borough.

But as we discovered the property market in London has created an

extraordinary neighbourhood. Hings like tax may not bother the natives

and Russian royal barons of the borough. But as we discovered the

property market in London has created an extraordinary

neighbourhood. Welcome to Britain's very own Monoco. This is the London

Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, home to some of the richest people

in the world. More likely second, third or fourth home. Many of them,

like in Monaco, pay very little tax. They mix with each other but they

don't engage much with the wider society around them. And here in

Knightsbridge property prices at ?2400 per square foot have caught up

with Monaco. The average price of ?2400 per square foot have caught up

take was bigger than Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the

north-east, the North West, Yorkshire and the Humber put

together. There has been a massive influx of intnational buyers, they

are coming from all over the place, the breath of the range of different

-- breadth and range of nationalities is greater than it has

ever been. Property prices are so high in this part of London it has

become become hollowed out, only the very rich or council houses are

moving in. The ones who aren't super-rich are those who have lived

there a long time. This is the new Beverly Hills, who would have thunk.

It started off as coach house, there is no eccentrics now, they got rid

of those, it is banker, banker, banker, I can't tell them apart.

They have the wives with the hair that goes like this

They have the wives with the hair annual income in the borough ?128

,000 is the highest in the country. Here in Notting Hill in the north of

the borough, it used to be full of bohemium and artistic types, now it

is choc full of bankers and the shops that service them. You can

spend ?3 on a loaf of bred here. You can buy it cheaper round the corner

in Portabello Market and the stall holders there remember the area the

way it used to be. This was a real poor area, real poor. People were

fighting in them days to get out of this I can't remember. Now they are

fighting to get into this I can't remember. I was born 100 yard up the

road from here in the little mews. And mum and dad and my sister we

used to live in a little mews flat there. Dad used to pay

their fruit on-line and they are in a fruit market. There is no

community now. Where there is a shortage of space and lots of demand

people have to build. In Monaco they are building up in ever-higher

skyscrapers to the fury of many locals.

# Down Down # Deeper and down Here in Kensington

and Chelsea they are digging down, creating huge basement, sometimes on

many levels. I have been given a sneak preview of this house in one

of the swankyist squares in Knightsbridge, on the market for ?11

million. The owner has dug a sub-basement below the existing one

to house another sitting room and what estate agents now like to call

"a media room". But some people what estate agents now like to call

should contain into a small, narrow London terraced home. Some of these

are called "icebergs" because they have more below ground than above.

Under another house in the same square they are digging a huge

sub-basement. The hole is so big you can see it on Google Earth. As in

Monaco the neighbours of the basement diggers are incanned

desSANT, the endless drilling, the dust the lorries are driving them

mad. I only know drill, I have had silicone implants not to hear the

drilling. It is a competition who can build low Er. It is about --

lower. It is how rich are you, some are hitting the crust of the earth.

More than half of residents were born

More than half of residents were -- to London, the capital has low

taxes on expensive house, less than half of New York's and a third of

Hong Kong's. And some of these houses are barely lived in, their

owners see them as investments. Even if they do live here full-time, a

lot of them don't have much stake in society. They tend to avoid state

schools and the NHS and public transport. Some of them even club

together and hire private security guards to patrol their streets. It

is as if they are living in a bubble separate from the rest of us and

only mixing with other extremely rich people. So what affect does

this have on the the area they live in. Dorling is a doing fee -- Danny

Dorling is a goingy prove yes, sir SOR and has been studying that. The

rich don't see much back for their taxes so don't like to pay them. The

rich don't see much back for their just social, the area has been

hollowed out physically too, with all the giant sub-basements being

dug, there is a honeycomb of holes under the clay under Kensington and

Chelsea's seats. You can almost imagine the disaster movie ending as

the borough collapses into a sink hole of its own making.

That's it for tonight, the short list for the least wanted writing

award, the Literary Review's Bad Sex Award was announced today. Unlike

last year when our late Economics Editor was gutted not to win for his

depiction of bonking on horse back. Not even Mark Urban have been

nominated. We are tipping this book. Not even Mark Urban have been

with mine remains. We streak like superheroes past suns and Solar

System, we dive through shoals of atomic nuclei, in our breakthrough

to the fourth star statisticians across the universe rejoice.