29/11/2013 Newsnight

15% of the increase is due to green levies that David Cameron has been

talking about. The other 25% is explained by higher energy costs. It

would be a whole lot easier if it was all about excess profits. The

average profit per bill has risen from 5% to a healthy, but not

exorbitant, 6.7%. Real profit margins may be higher than those

figures suggest. Generally speaking, profits have averaged around 5%.

That is only the retail profit margin. There are also production

profits on wholesale energy. Those are around 20, 20 5%. Are you

looking for ways to save money? That seems like an argument for greater

competition. The big six still controlled 98% of the market. The

regulation we have is not driving competition. People assume those

companies do not deserve the profits or it indicates the market is not

working for consumers. It is like Blackpool illuminations here. That

also helps to explain why a recent poll found two thirds of us support

something that would have been unthinkable to most people a few

years ago - renationalisation of the energy industry. It's just the

public wants radical thinking by politicians. From two political

leaders on both sides of the divide, we have had claims of green

credentials. There has been populist policy-making. What does a modern

energy system looks like and one which will provide jobs, warm homes

and a secure energy policy and an environmentally friendly energy

policy for Britain? That is not what they are doing. There is another

energy crisis looming. This bike powers this giant snow globe. The

National Grid has said this winter, electricity supplies will be at its

tightest for six years. Its cushion spare generating capacity is down to

5%. In the winter of 2011/2012, it was 15%. That margin is getting even

tighter. If the are not careful, we will be debating why the lights are

going out. Joss is the deputy political director of Greenpeace.

Prices are up. Very little capacity of energy supply and no investment.

It is a disaster, isn't it? On the day the government is cutting

installation schemes, the one thing that can instantly consumers from

the gas price hike Justin was talking about, the overwhelming

reason the bills have gone up is because of gas price hikes. The

scheme that is being cut will take hundreds of pounds of peoples bills

by insulating them from international markets. Doesn't no

need to be something radical like a Big Bang to break up the big six and

do something different? We can do something different by rewinding the

clock ten years or so and going back to a highly liberalised energy

market which is very efficient and reducing prices for consumers and

producing some of the cheapest energy in the developed world. Let

me just interact. To go back to that liberal agenda, would that actually

make sure you are cutting carbon emissions efficiently? Let's accept

the argument that you do want to cut carbon emissions. If you want to cut

carbon emissions, the best way to do it is to tax carbon emissions or

have some kind of cap on carbon emissions and have an emissions

trading scheme and allow people to find the best and cheapest way,

whether it be consumers or producers of energy, to reduce the carbon

intensity of electricity production. It might be in selecting homes,

switching off the lights, buying fuel through renewable sources. Is

that enough? If you look across to Germany, about 90% of all new

generating capacity is owned by families, churches, local

authorities. Where is the big innovation? Where is the investment?

It is not just because it is small scale. It is not small scale at all.

We are talking about half of Germany 's electricity being generated. The

power is owned by the people and people have a stake in it.

Stabilising prices because gas prices are driving up costs. When

you look at the scale of costs, for example, in other European

countries, we do not fair that badly. What is going on? We do not

trust the energy companies as an industry to do the best for us. Why

is that? To a large degree, it is a government failure. The government

has tried to intervene in the production of electricity by

determining how electricity companies should generate

electricity through renewable obligations. They have two have

offshore wind farms where electricity production production is

3.5 times more expensive. It will allow companies to do this in the

cheapest way. Regulators have started to interfere in the retail

market. In 2008, the regulators stopped energy companies going into

other areas and offering lower prices than they provided to their

existing customers. They regarded them as predatory pricing will stop

switching has fallen by 50%. We are in a cartel, aren't we? Energy

companies have a complete monopoly. We have a crazy situation where the

Prime Minister is so afraid of taking them on that he is not

prepared to tell them and lay down some rules. Instead, what we have

our levies that will insulates consumers and reduce pollution.

These popular measures are being cut because he is afraid of taking on

the energy companies. Do you think people want to do renationalisation

people philosophically believe in nationalised industries or do they

think the energy industry is a load of profiteers? I think they do feel

they are getting a bad deal. Six energy companies is properly for

more companies than another of supermarkets that can be visited.

There is a wider issue. One problem is the regulator. If there is going

to be a competition enquiry, the government and the regulator itself

is part of the problem. Just talk about market failure. Was trying to

think of the company you might trust in society. Who do we trust? Quite a

lot of people trust John Lewis. Is it because we do not trust the

energy suppliers because of the way they treat customers, hike the bills

without telling you, because of the dreadful bone nines and they are

unresponsive? If we had energy delivered by someone like the John

Lewis partnership, would that take it did -- with that make it

different is? There are small companies that people have not heard

of which are greener than the big six but they are also cheaper than

the big six. I use a small company and it is green and they invest in

clean energy. They are very small. It is because of the broken nature

of our market that those companies are really struggling because the

big six have the stranglehold. I think we need to open up the market

to these new companies but also local authorities and cities. Why do

you think politicians do not feel they can take on the energy

industry? You are assuming the energy industry needs to be taken

on. I am not uncomfortable at all with the competition commission

enquiry into the industry. They might find the regulator and the

government is a large part of the problem. We have often had

difficulties when we try to redesign industries. With the railways, we

tried to redesign it to create, edition and we made it more

expensive. You cannot leave this market as it is. Thank you both very

much. We have robbed human life of its existential value. The savage

killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby, whose death was played out in footage

taken by a mobile in May, was a shocking act of violence. The trial

of the two began at the Old Bailey. Graphic CCTV footage was played out

in court. What happened? The jury of eight women and four men were

hearing from the prosecution who was setting out their case. The case was

that the two men carried out a savage attack on Fusilier really --

Fusilier Lee Rigby on May 22 of this year. We can see circled in red, Lee

would be walking down the street. He is about to cross the road. A couple

of cars pass. This was shown to the court today. We see that he is about

to cross the road. He starts to cross here. A car is approaching

from behind. It accelerates and the video stops. The court was told that

the car hits Lee Rigby. He was carried on to the bonnet, the

windscreen until the car hit a road sign.

The jury were told that the drivers of the car got out. He started

attacking Lee Rigby with a meat cleaver. The jury were told that it

was a horrific and frenzied attack, and the driver of the car was using

considerable force with the meat cleaver. The prosecution say the, as

were like a butcher attacking a joint of meat. Witnesses reported

that Lee Rigby was unconscious at the time.

The court heard that the attackers said that this was an eye for an eye

in retaliation from Britain's war against what they said was a war

against Muslims. Both men, however, deny the charge of murder against

them. Richard, thank you very much indeed.

Tonight, around 20,000 Ukrainians have turned out in Kiev's

Independence Square, scene of the Orange Revolution almost a decade

ago. Tonight, they're protesting against their president's

spectacular U-turn, turning his back on a planned deal with EU in favour

of Russia. After Victor Yanukovych's sudden and controversial

announcement, which many believe is triggered by pressure from Vladimir

Putin, the country's jailed former Prime Minister, Yulia Tymoshenko,

went on hunger strike. Now she has been refused access to her lawyer.

With temperatures plummeting, pro-tempt settle in for a hard night

in Kiev's independence square. Their message to their president,

Victor Yanukovych, our future is with Europe, and you must go.

Their hopes were dealt a new blow today when Mr Yanukovych turned his

back on a deal to the Ukraine to move closer to the EU. EU leaders

accuse Russia of pressuring him into the change. We may not give in to

external pressure, not the least from Russia.

The deal also dashed the hopes of jailed former Prime Minister Yulia

Tymoshenko, imprisoned for abuse of power. She was to be released as

part of the EU deal. She is now on hunger strike until the deal is

signed. No-one knows when or if that will happen. A little earlier this

evening, I spoke to her daughter in Independence Square in Kiev.

Your mother has apparently been refused the opportunity to see her

lawyer today. What reason was given? When the penitentiary system doesn't

let a lawyer in to see her, they don't give a reason, they just break

the law. Today, there was no legal reason given not to see her, and we

of course are worried for her because she's on her fifth day of

hunger strike, and we're not sure what her state of health is right

now. When did you last see her? I saw her

on her birthday, actually, on 27 November, just before the the

villainous summit, and we were able to see her also after a lot of

fights with penitentiary system. Do you think there's a chance that she

is being force-fed already? We're not sure, becau we haven't seen her

yet. You know, at the moment, after the failure of the signature, we see

the new wave of repressions towards her, towards us, the defence team,

and we are not sure how far they can go in aggression against her.

When you spoke to your mother, when you saw her, do you think that she

is resolute about this hunger strike? Did you discuss how far she

is prepared to go, if she is prepared to go to death? She is

already made very difficult decisions for the sake of the

signature, and the final of the way that what she can do physically, or

being in isolation now, is to protest in this way. From the one

hand, I understand her, that that is her way of showing her position, how

strong she feels about signing the agreement and its failure, but, on

the other hand, I am very worried about her health. Ukraine is in a

hard place. If President Putin puts pressure on over trade and jobs,

what is Ukraine to do? Well, first of all, the reasons that Yanukovych

gave of losses of a cessation agreement are really false reasons,

they're just a facade covering his real intention not to sign

agreement, not to fulfil European criteria, and my mother in her

appeal stated that if Yanukovych doesn't sign today, and he didn't,

that he will never sign it as a president of Ukraine. The new hope

is for the new democratic forces and that a president that can win 2015

elections. Under the EU deal, she would have been able to leave for

Germany to have back surgery, and she made an open letter today to the

president to waive that part of the deal.

Was that a hard thing for her to do? Of course, it is been very hard

thing to do for her because in the beginning, from the start, and she

is continuing to fight, and we all with her, for her political

rehabilitation, the whole world now acknowledges that she is really

political prisoner, that her trial was politically motivated, she is

really an innocent person, so, of course, it was a hard decision for

her. Does the Orange Revolution seem a very long way away now? She

mentioned in her appeal at the square on Sunday, 24 November, that

Yanukovych, like nine years ago, after falsifying election, rose up

Orange Revolution. Now we see the same upheaval of people after his

denial to the Ukraine people of hopes for re-integration. Do you

feel that had the EU been clearer about the financial support it was

going to give Ukraine, then this would not have happened? Do you feel

let down by the EU? Well, I am sure, and I know that the EU - the

European leaders were very clear, and also US leaders about their

support for the IMF funding, and other monetary help and support for

Ukraine, but what the European Union is proposing is much more than just

monetary help, it is political civilisation change for Ukraine,

whilst other agents of pressure for Ukraine or - offer a short-term

bailout which would mean we would, Yanukovych would have to trade away

Ukraine's independence bit by bit, and that is what these people are

against. There is no sense there of any betrayal by the EU for not

coming up with more support and help? I think that the European

leaders have done in this last five years since their movement towards a

cessation agreement, since this has started, they have done everything

they could, plus they proposed humanitarian and, well, rescue for

my mother's illegal situation illegal incarceration, and we're

very thankful to them for this support. Thank you very much indeed.

The Chapman Brothers, Jake and Dinos, were the most provocative

pair of of or lumped together under the banner Young British Artists in

the early 1990s making a splash with Disasters of War. Then, charms

Saatchi was a patron. After the last 20 years, their endeavours have

interrogated ways of seeing the world, questioning ideas of

mortality, evil, and consumer I did, often -- consumerism, often with

tinges of humour. I went to see it, and met Jake, and there was some

strong language. In here, is this the most complete

world of Jake and Dinos there is It is a fragment of our world. This is

a two per cent. You're perfecting hell and a world that is getting

more hellish. We have Ronald, and we have Hamburglal, these different

characters, so some of the characters have started to change.

The script is pretty much set in terms of the actors, in terms of the

mewants, and the skeletons, and the Nazis, because, in our eyes, the

Nazis are absolute evil, and no-one else really deserves to be in hell.

So you go back to the Nazis all the time? They are just kind of like a

generic euphemism for utter evil. And in a sense, what we are

interested in is how impoverished that is as a proposition, the idea

suggesting that if you make a work of art supposed to be horrific and

horrible you use Nazis, whereas if you make something funny, you use

smiley face. You've introduced this idea when the first thing you see is

the hilarity of the vision, and then you look at it, and it becomes

darker? Yes, I mean, I think isn't pathos something to do with

relationship between pain and time? There's something funny, there is

something, we learn from other people's pain, and we have - our

concept of compassion, empathy, is based upon the notion that we

identify with someone else's pain of easier than we can with our own, or

at least we prefer it. Another recurring theme is taking mainly

children, changes in genitalia, mewants, and so forth, and

sensation, all those years ago, it was locked in a room, now it's not.

Things changed? In a sense, you know, the point about this is this

begs the question, what is you mutation? What is adaptation? If

this thing is the only thing in the world that looks like this, then

this thing is an ideal version of itself. It is not a mutation or it's

not an abysmal version of something that's not a perversion. So in a

sense, this is a model of self-adaptation rather than it is a

model of mutation. The world that we live in now, as opposed to when

Sensation came out, is a highly sexualised world for children.

Someone will look at this and say it is a girl because it's got long

hair. It is fantastic how then it goes back to the idea, if you want

to make a happy painting, what do you do? Make a smiley face. If you

want to make something evil, you use Nazis. I guess we're interested in

how these generic terms are loaded, but also amazingly superficial. This

is laugh out loud, right? Yes, this is locking with nature. Did you sit

and come up with it? The animals are great? I think, yes, it is to

describe the kind of Genesis of a particular idea from the mass of

crap that we talk about incessantly all day and every day. These things

emerge from the morass of dialogue, actually. When viewers come to your

exhibition, there is a state of moral panic induced because they're

not sure what to think. The point about it is to actually present the

idea that there are real obvious codes being presented, the notion of

what a child looks like, the notion of adult genitalia, these things put

into a thing which don't seem to deserve each other. Then your

problem is your tendency as a moralising subject or an - is to try

and form something which is coherent, and it is to try and

stabilise the instability of the work. Has the internet kind of

stolen a bit of your thunder? Yes, because it is bigger!

Even in the Chapman Brothers - Yes, almost. In ego maybe. ! Then you've

got the clan in hippy slippers. Yes. But the clan again, is the -

Somewhere probably, in Devon someone is knitting these things because

they have had such a like a hit on the internet, like we want 60 pairs.

They think there is a new rise in hippies. The idea of taking 19th

century portraits and we doing the faces, why do you like doing these

ones? Because there is something very cruel about tampering with what

is a relic of someone's bid for immortality. Here is this kind of

bourgeois wealthy patron who has paid to had his - then, to add

insult to injury, we get it, and we inject the entropy he is avoiding. ,

the reason we decided to make these things in bronze is because bronze

is by its very nature glacial, it is hard. You're talking about something

which implies kin nettic movement, seems to imply motion that's been

petrified in the instant of its production, so it has no chance of

doing what it does. We like the idea of bronze because that's third place

in a race. Now we have some breaking news

tonight: a helicopter has reportedly crashed into a pub in Glasgow.

Located along the river Clyde. The shadow development secretary has

told the BBC that he was informed about the crash by the local fire

brigade, and that he had been told there were multiple casualties. He

said it's not clear how many people are injured, he said a lot. He

described a pile of people clambering out of the wreckage and

if you follow on the news channel, there will be more news on that as

it comes in. We finished with tomorrow's morning front pages:

energy bills are to be cut by ?50. Prices could be cut as early as

tomorrow, as Osborne prepares to announce a cut in green levies. The

Guardian, the very private murder, the killing of Private Lee Rigby.

Can you afford the mortgage? Turning the times there, I did it for God,

said the killer and question mark, in quotation marks of Lee Rigby,

that's what he told the medics, then on the right hand side, the

wonderful smile of Joshua Cater who became the poster boys of aid

efforts. Yesterday he raised a smile when he was told he was world

famous. The daily Mirror, their headline,

unspeakable, the moment drummer Lee Rigby is moan down. Unbearable, his

mum and widow flee the court in tears as the jury is shown CCTV.

Then on the eye on Saturday go, again, a cowardly and callous murder

as the trial opens into the barbarous killing of drummer Lee

Rigby. Just to remind you, any more news that the BBC can bring you on

the story of the helicopter crash in Glasgow, we will be over on the news

channel all night. We've already heard from one of the local MPs that

there are a number of casualties, and there is a substantial amount of

wreckage. The BBC will have as much as they can bring you as quickly as

possible. From Newsnight tonight, that's all

for tonight. Have a very good night.